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Exclusive: Second Whistleblower Emerges - A Deep Insider's Walkthru To Silver Market Manipulation
A second whistleblower speaks. As the topic of physical delivery has gained prominent attention recently, it is crucial to complete the circle and show how this weakest link in the PM market is (ab)used by the big boys: Phibro and Warren Buffet. Pay particular attention to the analogues between the methods employed in the 90's commodity market and how the PM (and equity) market is being gamed currently. And to think that each new generation of traders believes it has discovered something new... (All emphasis below is ours)
Background
- As a market maker in silver options from 1989 to 2000 I was present during both the 1994 and 1997 silver events. They were seminal in my education of gamesmanship in trading and how probabilities can come up short.
- Prior to going out on my own, I traded at a small market making firm. When a trader finished training there, he had top-tier options knowledge but was not educated in whom the players were, the fundamentals of the markets, and how probabilities were useless when information was asymmetric. That wasn’t their business, they taught option’s theory. Since I had drunk the kool-aid, I thought fundamentals and gamesmanship were useless in the face of the almighty Standard Deviation model. That was a mistake.
Phibro Early Exercise
- In April 1994, the Thursday before Easter, the trading day ended with a rather unusual run up of 15 cents near the close to finish at 435ish around noon. Options expired that day at 4pm but we weren’t anywhere near the closest strikes (425 and 450) so most of us left. It was a 4 day weekend in the U.S. but silver traded globally, albeit il-liquidly in Asia. Comex wouldn’t open until next Tuesday. My education in gamesmanship started that afternoon at JFK airport as I was waiting for a flight, my first vacation in 5 years.
- My backer paged me at the airport to inform me that someone was exercising the K 450 calls. I scoffed thinking it was a retail sap that was talked into exercising some 5 lot piece by an overzealous broker. “Great I said, let them, the options are out of the money.” And I hung up
- 10 minutes later he had me paged again. “You don’t understand, it’s Phibro exercising.” Again I naively said, “So what, they are energy guys.” But I was curious, “How many? “ I asked. “All of them, five thousand, he replied. Now I was really curious, but still woefully ignorant that it was I who was the sap at the table. “Why would they do that?” and he explained it to me. I nearly shit myself and bent over in the cab vomiting on the ride back.
- Cancelling my trip, I headed back to the office to assess the reality of what would happen, probabilities were no longer important. Survival was important. I had no money and was trading on a $25k note lent to me by my backer.
- We covered by buying futures on my entire short open Interest equivalent of EXPIRED OUT OF THE MONEY OPTIONS in Singapore with a dealing firm. We did this prior to even actually knowing if I was exercised, probabilities be damned. How did I know they exercised? The price covered at was $462; that is how. The 450s were already in the money by 12 cents.
- Phibro exercised all 5k lots. I had a fraction of that but big enough to be carried out on a stretcher had the rest of my position not bailed me out/ performed on Tuesday next week.
- The weird part was, the market stabilized that Tuesday and did not run to “infinity” as it could easily have. We found out later it was because Phibro’s exercise was a no-no and Warren Buffet ordered them to shut the trade down as it was too big of a potential scandal. Especially in light of his coming to Solly’s rescue and lending his good name to fix their most recent Treasury scandal. A couple head’s rolled there if I remember correctly.
- My guess was that the client was a Buffet or Soros type. Someone that would only go to Phibro, as these guys were the best at preventing information leakage, and always aligned themselves with client interests, where as if IB had an order and acted in dual capacity as a dealer, he would potentially front-run the order or stop it out poorly on an exit. Phibro didn’t take other side of their client’s orders. They ran with them, and took care of the clients first.
- Phibro got a big order for a client to buy silver, one that had to be handled expertly, and filled over time, no information leakage would be tolerated. These guys were a prop desk that took orders as brokers once in a while.
- They accumulated options for their own account (K 450C) to piggyback but not front-run the client.
- They must have bought futures for themselves as well as the client with his permission.
- They beat the VWAP by gunning the market on light volumes 1 hour before a 4 day US holiday. [TD: compare and contrast with the daily patterns seen every single day in the endless move up in the S&P]
- They exercised the 450 Calls that day and then lifted the offers of the 1 or 2 OTC metals dealers left open during Singapore hours, running them over during illiquid markets.
Never Again!
- I became infatuated with Phibro gamesmanship and made it a point to understand that particular type of player.
- Libertarian Darwinist that I was I did not blame them. At the time It was a buyer-beware market for big businesses and they did nothing wrong. They took risk and they aren’t bigger than the market. I wanted to play with the big boys, and that was the price.
- For me it was about learning how to read the signs and not be on the wrong side of one of those events again, even if I was not privy to their meetings.
Here is some of what I learned:
- In metals (and energy and anything else with an OTC market) the IB firms have dealing desks along GS, MS, Republic, JPMorgan, Scotia Mocatta, all were essentially broker dealers in precious metals. All had clients: miners who hedged production and hedge funds who speculated OTC. They provided liquidity by taking the other side of their client’s trade and “back-to-backing” them in the futures markets or held onto them in their prop books as counterparty because of something else they saw.
- Their client left resting orders with them in the IB’s Central Limit Order Book (CLOB) which served as good information to trade around for the IB. Sometimes they front-ran the client, other times they go for stops to force the client to puke. Sometimes they’d just make markets, depending on many things. It was poker to them.
- Phibro was different. These were smart guys but they weren’t a dealing bank. They exploited imbalances in markets and took positions. They had ideas. They also took orders for heavyweights who needed absolute discretion. They did not make it their business to fleece their own clients and instead aligned their interests. And they made the banks look like pikers when a client came to them with an order.
- For the next 4 Years I paid attention to how those dealing banks and phibro played the markets. It was all about gamesmanship, Bayesian probability, and knowing your counterparty’s motivation with these guys. Information and misinformation.
Some methods:
- How I.B firms would use a thinly traded floor to print the price that would trigger a massive stop loss in the OTC markets and bury their own clients. Or how they would buy for their own accounts in front of resting limit orders for clients and simply use their clients to stop themselves out if the market printed thru their buy levels. Or how they would use dual representation to show loudly they were buyers on one side of the ring, while they were selling quietly upstairs to other OTC dealers. Trading with themselves in multiple entities, etc.
- An IB with a Commodity Index was in heaven. Prop trading, captive client flow from IB deals and OTC dealing and Brokerage. The good ones knew how to integrate and hedge macro risks, whether to front run their own index clients or get out off their way. “Chinese walls” did not exist in Commods.
- Commods were mostly self regulated and that lead to predatory yet mostly legal behaviour.
- Some of these were necessary to protect their interests with such a small number of players. Some were possibly unethical, but most were legal. Their clients were all big boys who left resting orders with the IBs at their own risk. Clients themselves had to resort to some of the same tricks to keep the IB desks honest, like Coming in backwards, “spoofing”, leaving buy stops to get sell orders filled. The alternative for these clients was to put massive orders in the floor where liquidity was subjective, non continuous and information leakage was massive.
1997- Warren Buffet.
- I got my chance to not get run over in 1997, when Warren Buffet gave an order to Phibro to buy silver.
- Short version. Here is what went down.
- Buffet gives Phibro the order- fact
- Phibro begins filling it as a broker using various OTC dealers as counterparties, and letting the I.B dealers sweat getting out of the risk. - fact
- Phibro buys options for their own account (no exercise game this time tho)- fact
- Phibro buys futures for their own account. – not confirmed.
- One by one the IB dealers start to catch on that this is no ordinary order Phibro is handling. They back away and liquidity gets harder to find.- fact
- Other bigger hedge funds in the small circle of professionals, and other smart firms start getting long.- fact
- Silver starts getting delivered from the Comex vaults. Some of it actually removed. Some of it just “covered with a sheet” for removal. But ounces begin to be removed from the warehouse. Phibro was rumored to be taking delivery and beginning to telegraph fear in the markets to start spoofing the VWAP. Rumor was they had a warehouse in Red Hook where they stored it. Never confirmed.
- Point here is, the saps for the last part of this play were the producers and refiners who were complacently net short and dependent on above ground silver to satisfy delivery requests.
- Producers had been over-hedging for years in this market, as silver was cheap and they had business cash flow issues. It was their habit to sell forward production not yet available to them. And if forced to, they would lease already above ground silver and make delivery, collateralizing it with silver yet to be mined. Their positions were habitually synthetically long the contango as they rolled their deliverable production further and further out the curve in an attempt to squeeze much needed cash (cost of carry)for their businesses. The net effect was that sometimes they had to borrow silver for prompt delivery while they rolled their production hedge back further. – my interpretation of what I learned. May not be accurate to the “T”, am not a physical guy.
- Example: in 1995 a miner has silver due above ground in 1997. He hedges it in Z-1997 contract. Z 1997 comes and if he doesn’t have that silver available for some other reason; he covers the short and rolls it back. How much he needs to do this is a function of his obligations, cash flows, and his greed for carry. If leases are cheap, he will seek to capture all the contango and lease it until he gets the silver available.
- If lease rates go up, it is not unlike a miner strike. Silver is needed for delivery now, and term risk becomes the issue. Contango collapses and market goes backwardated. He will be forced to sell the contango to get that prompt silver short back if he cannot make delivery. He has to defer delivery.
- These guys were dependent on the specs NOT taking delivery for years. Specs didn’t have balance sheets to take and store physical metal. Specs usually were the weak hands at futures expiry.
- But then…..Entities that stored silver in bank vaults (like the Republic vault) begin to remove silver from the available pool for leasing. This made the “easy money” portion of production financing no longer easy. Think: smart money getting the word that a squeeze was on and playing along with it.
- Phibro (and others) start selling the contango in the futures market to prepare to take delivery of even more contracts. Or at least put pressure on the producers who had front month shorts they would have to make a decision on delivering. Phibro KNEW that the producers had to sell the spreads to get their shorts back. But they couldn’t lift their shorts altogether as part of their financing deals with their bankers. Their own positions were now breaking down in every way except flat price. The market really didn’t move much. This let them stay in denial.
- Buffet announces he is long and intends to take delivery of silver. Contango collapses. Market spikes to 7.40.
- Rumor is gov’t intercedes and asks Buffet to not do this, it would break the industry. (Kind of like how the exchange begged the gov’t to help it shut down the Hunt Bros.) He says ok, and agrees to lend then their silver back to them. Essentially charging them 40% interest to delay delivery for a year.
What to look for:
- Find the overleveraged/ extended party- and you will find the weak hand at the table. (Producers in 1997)
- Tail wags dog: if the pricing venue trades smaller volume than the OTC, then manipulate price with small volumes to execute trades with big volumes favorably. (OTC vs Comex floor)
- Divide and conquer- if counterparties are undercapitalized and/ or fragmented, then it will be easier to get them to move like a herd. (happens in options ALL THE TIME at expiration)
- Manipulate data- take delivery of metal, take risk off books, manipulate MTM data.
- Create an exit strategy- a good catalyst like Easter weekend, an announcement by an investor etc. or develop a market and grow your own bigger fool. ie – retail.
Comments - So many points to make here:
- How derivative markets can create a problem thru too much liquidity that cannot easily be reconciled by bringing physical production on line fast enough.
- How this works both ways, and that dealing banks have been playing the gold/silver carry game for easy funding of other trades for years.
- How, even though I personally think that what the OTC does is their own business, but the increasing securitization of commodities leaves regulatory arbitrage and OTC games to affect a new generation of ETF buyers, either thru incremental banking or thru contango cancer. That Wall Street salesmen and players with access to both markets retail and professional can exploit the captive audience created with ETFs and other fund type instruments to shear and in some cases skin the sheep.
- That much of this happens because the gov’t is too stupid to see the inherent conflict of interest in what a broker-dealer does. Regulation will not stop gaming the law. Ethics do, and not everybody has ethics. So best you can do is prevent situations of conflict of interest, like the existence of Broker-dealer type entities. Either you trade for yourself, or you trade for others. Period.
- Fact is, if there were retail public in this game back then, the IB firms would have somehow sold them on the idea to BUY contango, or short silver. But the financialization of commodities wasn’t there yet. And the “bigger fool” game stopped at the producers. If it happened again, with ETFs, cross regulatory semi fungible products, asymmetric access to venues and other factors in a global market, the public would be killed, short squeeze or long puke (like in UNG now) take your pick.
- You can never know intentions, and no one is bigger than the market, but the consequences of a lack of transparency and the free reign in which banks can tell half-truths to investors is a big factor in enabling strong hands to fleece weak hands with little market risk. It’s all a con game. And when the IBs figured out how to change the rules, then they were free to use their killer techniques to exploit a million little fish instead of the 10 big fish they usually competed with.
- Phibro was a ballsy cowboy trading firm. The banks at the employee level are as well, but corporately, they first seek to make money and secondly provide a service. When they should be providing a service that makes money.
- Everything that was done I’ve seen done the other way, keeping prices low, shaking out weaker players. Rarely does it happen in such a dramatic way. It is usually a series of “short cons” as opposed to Phibro’s home run. It’s all Darwinism. But when civilians are involved as they are now, then it is no longer caveat emptor.
- Instead of taking a million dollars from a hedge fund, these guys take a dollar from a million people now.
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I predict +/- 20 500 comments on this thread.
No predictions bro, but damn is it good to see your face again regularly!
Same here bro.
How you been doing dowg ?
Agreed pup. And may I say CB it is a shame to havta welcome you to the short timers club. There is a special kinda peace to be found here tho bro. See yaz
When y'all talk like that it makes ME ill... stay strong and on here. We need all the brainpower we can muster (or at least I need you guys and everyone else).
We're all on that timeline in the tagline after all...
Layne, old friend, nice to hear from you. I'm still putting up a fight though.
Will it be successful or not; time will tell.
Layne... old school. I'll leave this thread alone now but between the two of you, I've gained an education of a lifetime. Stay strong boys. Find the chat. Easier there.
Peace pup & CB. While folks get worked up over PM manipulation I thought you might appreciate this bit of respite. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH1VDE3bvBA and the original you may recall from RZH. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBbV1O6_FNc
on Tue, 04/13/2010 - 20:09
#299195
Peace pup & CB. While folks get worked up over PM manipulation I thought you might appreciate this bit of respite. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH1VDE3bvBA and the original you may recall from RZH. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBbV1O6_FNc
Miles Kendig,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2vSB39Vho4 or... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3LE7srtDVs&feature=PlayList&p=C1B06538A32767DF&playnext_from=PL&index=137 .
Be well, JW
I like to get a little Cheeky too, but all this love talk is very distracting. Cheeky are you trying to "hedge" your bet with a few multiple postings of your own?
Hey CB, Miles, CD and the rest of the original gang, Its great to read you sharing the love! Yes, ZH has shifted, but its still home and I forecast that its going to rock very soon!...just saying...X
+1
You need to revise that down by 100. Master Bates has stopped posting.
We also haven't heard from:
Mater Bates the peterpeter
They are making a movie together " Two Guys and a Hotdog"
Don't worry, Jory's been making up for him recently
good guess
You need a subject involving class warfare, real warfare and/or/all open author solicitation of input for those kinds (multi-hundreds) of numbers, at least at this point in ZH history. Too much inside baseball on this one.
I don't think there are any shocking revelations here but it's a good summary of the dynamics of PM (other commodity and more generally any) markets and what to be aware of. The best take-away is probably the connection to the ETF markets. ETFs are now so large and so numerous and are so widely perceived to be passive, what-you-see-is-what-you-get securities that they just have to be fertile ground for this kind of serious gamesmanship. That short and/or levered ETFs are mathematically difficult to profit from longer term is old news at this point. But expertise on the rules that determine when/what exactly they hold, how creation units are made/dissolved, the buying habits of automated investments etc. etc...especially (I would imagine) in PM ETFs is almost certainly turning into skimmed cream for somebody. Just because ETFs are automated and traded by machines doesn't mean that information about them is uncompromisable. A dollar from a million people indeed.
Cheeky, I think the 500 comments are going to depend on how many ppl want to admit they hadn't be fucked like that since grade school;) But anyway, if you want this for your open thread, we can make that happen. Good to see under any ANY condition! Right boyz?!
Lothar lurves his friend Ruthie. :-)
Back to the shadows...
I predict this will not change anything - Fact.
I predict silver will either rise or fall tomorrow on this news.
To be honest this trader speak is way over my head.
trader speak is over my head too, but i have learned lots since i started following ZH and learned lots from this post, even with my unfamiliarity with the jargon. excellent post as usual TD.. oh yeah... Silver bitches!!!
I wish he would have spent the time to write out his thoughts. Writing only in abbreviated bullet points is not an effective way to communicate.
its good for the "ADD" afflicted, helps stick to the bare facts, and minimizes editorial conjecture.
+100
He covered a lot of issues without putting the reader to sleep. Yes he covers a lot of ground without much explaination but things that the reader doesn't understand can be figured out using Wikipedia or other sources and thinking.
IMO, it is a keeper, a standard.
We live in a sound byte world, unfortunately.
like that one?
Reggie the whistleblower?
deleted
deleted
I need an executive summary - Fact
Good thing I just bought another 100 oz.
ARE WE THERE YET?
Water Wings, thank you. I assume you have it in hand and its not paper! I want everybody to have some.
I gave three coins to two of my senior citizen friends that are taking care of a grand-daughter. One for each bugout bag. Those ladies were all very starry eyed. I told them each one could be a last tank of gas, a night of warm shelter and food, or just something to remember me by.
I'd buy more but I'm not bigtime. Need to stock up on more 7.62 anyway.
yeah? listen to this interview with Jim Rikards and you may go right back and buy another 100, or more...
http://www.kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2010/4/14_Jim_Rickards.html
gold and silver seem to operate in the greater or lesser hysteria part of the world
He makes it sound so easy. Only the strong survive.
I feel like biting the piss out of someone right now.
Unless we get physical evidence all these whistle blowings will dissapear in the winds.
So, you are saying that the CFTC should do its job?
I agree.
It's crooked -- fact. That doesn't really affect my buying a few ounces here and there to add to the pile. Actually, the shenanigans keeping prices down are helpful. Not that that is any consolation to others.
"Actually, the shenanigans keeping prices down are helpful."
+quadrillion
That is the simple beauty of "ethical" participation.
Take physical delivery and do your part to expose the fraud.
It would also force the Fed's hand on "liquidity" as a run on Gold and Silver would spook dollar debt holders.
That is my thought. But it seems clear Uncle Sugar is willing to change the rules to make sure that one strong hand can't force the issue, IE Hunt Brothers or Buffet. What will Uncle Sugar do if a lot of smaller hands try to force the issue? Silver is not a big market, and more and more people are buying partially out of fear, and a lot of the little guys are going and taking delivery.
Death by a thousand cuts...Wonderful!
Exactly. People have been asking what to do to fight the Fed, and this is one way.
I have no idea of the legality of it, but i was just thinking today about the initiative process in WA state and making the state govt not have any dealings with any bank that received TARP/bailout money. Obviously the federal govt isn't going to stop the criminal banksters - its up to the people at this point to solve it.
Hw about the legality of requiring state chartered banks to possess reserves in the form of gold and/or silver up to some percentage of their deposits? Call it a 'belt and suspenders' since the Feds can't regulate worth a crap.
I think under a referendum it would be quite legal, and smart; good for a state's competitiveness.
WE NEED STATE BANKS ISSUING OUR MONEY! END THE FED!
To hell with that! We need people picking their own money, down with legal tender laws!
We are some of the millions who are being taken for a dollar.
Let's get our dollar back, one buck at a time, one ounce at a time!
...starving the beast one dollar at a time.
"the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" -confucius
the journey of a thousand OzT starts with an empty ammo can
the quote is from lao tzu.
...grasshopper is wise. grasshopper is correct.
...lucky numbers: 8 33 39 52 73 98
I think there is going to be a surprise. This has gotten too easy...and too many people in one side of the boat.
Which boat would that be?
The all the fiat currencies of the world are going to go up in flames this year boat. Granted, it will, I just don't think it is this soon.
I think you might be under estimating most people's time horizon. I still think it will be 2011 at the earliest, and likely after (worried I'm wrong but that's my opinion). But then I still think that fiat currencies will be used even after they melt down. They will make a new one or have a revaluation/trade in or have a war or something. Fiat currencies offer to much power to the policy makers and a little thing like a global meltdown is not going to stop them from trying to use it. Can you imagine how hard it would be to fund the welfare/warfare state without fiat money?
Fiat currency is a "crown jewel" coequal perhaps to education. I think tyrants would do just about anything to keep the fiat swindle going so they can control anything else using it. Ultimately I think it all comes down to education. If a big enough percentage of the population gets wise to the fiat game then things get interesting fast. And that is why tyrant propaganda (deception), and control of education is as important as fiat currency. So the race is on to help educate enough people using genuine media such as the internet before the tyrants can implement effective countermeasures. I also think this is why tyrants are getting so bold and appear to be in a big hurry, as the fiat game is getting brittle and the world is getting wise. Humanity is approaching a “phase change” similar to what happened in the square in Romania as the tyrants were shouting orders and the next moment the hired help stands down and it all unravels on them. Each mind that “gets it” becomes another potential point of crystallization for the phase change. Once the change comes, as long as a civilization can maintain awareness of the intolerability of fiat money, a tremendous barrier towards the usurpation and centralization of power remains. That awareness itself focuses on the other key pillar of avoidance of centralization, intolerability of the centralization/control of education. To stay free certain basics facts must “stay in circulation” in the civilization's psyche in perpetuity.
I'm one hundred and ninety pounds (unfortunately) of that ballast. Sorry, I don't have a crystal ball to answer the timeline thingy. I'm not going to be left out of the run, today, tomorrow or 10 years hence. The last ten have been good to me tho', I'm going with the flow. The iceberg struck back then and damage control has been keeping her afloat since.
Come on over to our side of the boat and when all is done, we'll have a beer. By the way, all the life preservers are over on this side. Beat the rush, flares have already been launched! Don't be left dancing to the music.
Speaking of fiat currency going up in flame. Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP1H_69yYBE&feature=related
Cobra Commander:
"Attention citizens! Due the financial irresponsibility and incompetence of your leaders, Cobra has found it necessary to restructure your nation's economy. We have begun by eliminating the worthless green paper which your government has deceived you into believing is valuable."
No wonder they are considered a terrorist organization. Cobra is like the military branch of GATA. Could it be Ron Paul behind Cobra Commander's mask?
VALUES OF THE NEW PUBLIC MANAGEMENT
All successful advanced economies use a blend of democratic and market-based approaches to
achieve social cooperation and economic development. In Canada, the United Kingdom,
Australia, the United States, and many other advanced economies, this has traditionally taken the
form of allowing capitalism to run free until it creates specific public problems. This is in
keeping with the ‘invisible hand’ of the market as advocated by Adam Smith in 1776. This
concept asserts that individuals will, and ought to, pursue their own self interests, and in so doing
they will collectively achieve the greatest possible value for society (Smith 1937 (originally
1776)). Government, in this view, must maintain stable legal systems so that contracts are
binding and must maintain a system of property or ownership rights, so that business owners
may reasonably expect to profit from their ownership ventures.
http://www.ipa.udel.edu/3tad/papers/workshop6/Mingus.pdf
Smith’s Attack on Mercantilism
In the 18th century, European nations practiced an economic system known as
“mercantilism.” Each nation’s goal was to increase exports to its colonies and other
nations, limit imports from them, and end up with a “favorable balance of trade.” A
nation that exported more than it imported demanded the difference in gold and silver.
The mercantilist nations believed that the more gold and silver they acquired, the more
wealth they possessed. Smith believed that this economic policy was foolish and actually
limited the potential for “real wealth,” which he defined as “the annual produce of the
land and labor of the society.”
http://www.fairfightfilm.org/crf/AdamSmithProduction.pdf
Sweet - how do I get me some "Cobra Currency" (surely it's .9999 fine gold, right?)
I took possession of my gold just a few days ago.
Harder to do that in Italy though... :)
In vacanze!
Great stuff.
'U è surdu, orbu e taci, campa cent'anni 'mpaci' ("He who is deaf, blind, and silent will live a hundred years in peace")
That is, until the internet came along...and this blog in particular.
'U è surdu, orbu e taci, campa cent'anni 'mpaci'
I like that. Should be required reading for anyone considering whistleblowing...
"Tanto va la gatta al lardo che ci lascia lo zampino" or The cat will go to the lard until it will lose its paw.
It's about time.
but, but, warren seems so nice, like someone's grandpa, an old rock 'n roller, that plays in a band, and sings, and looks like an aged axl rose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmcxIokfOiE
Propaganda without borders.
All hail the Glorious and Eternal State of The United States of America and Its Glorious and Infallible Representatives of Glorious and Forever Prosperous State of Oligarchical Kleptofascism. All Hail, All Hail !!!!!
heh heh heh
Are you my long lost 17th ,initials only, cousin CB ?
Prosperous State of Oligarchical Kleptofascism
Many Americans are fighting to get our country back from the dirty corporations. People like Alex Jones who is a great civil rights leader.
http://www.infowars.com/
Um, Alex Jones loves the sound of his scratchy, irritating voice way too much. He wants his audience stirred up to the point where they will sit by the computer, listen to his every word, and buy all of the crap he hawks endlessly on the show. Go listen to his new years eve 2000 broadcast where he was (without evidence) saying that nuke plants were going offline and the great wave of Y2K chaos was starting. Or that the arabs run Hollywood. My opinion is that he's a shill like Hal Turner.
In other news, if you want civil rights you'd better get on the stick yourself rather than waiting for a 'great leader'.
Eh, I got tired of listening to his show, but I will never be the same. Someone else on here said it: "If even 20% of this stuff is true we are so fucked."
I'd put Alex at ~80% outright credibility - that much is pretty well documented. Stick a fork in the US of A.
http://www.infowars.com/
I listen to Jones' show, not him. Alex interjects too much of his personal beliefs into his show for me to want to pledge full support of him, although I think he means well. His show still rocks! His guests are the best, even though even they do not tell the whole story. Evidence in Jim Tucker disclosing the bilderberg meeting cite last night, and running through their agenda. He makes remarkable sense, until he said, "They will raise the oil prices, but they have plenty of oil." Jim, oil production has peaked (plateaued if you prefer). Even those that break the dis info have dis info. Everything must be scrutinized.
@Careless, please don't spam on ZH.
@ Steaming
oh, you mean like in july 2001 when he predicted a 'teerorist' attack by ben laden?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGtOFudmHG8
I particularly like this comment from that video
agtheking says " Warren Buffet rocks. He is basically giving away all? of his money, he strongly support social justice and he lives a quite modest life when it comes to material possessions. He is a great man."
I made time to catch a Chomsky lecture this past week and he made mention of something similar. (Shame he's just a "left-wing loonie" here among "intellectuals.")
http://www.progressive.org/wx041210.html
I also just finished Sheldon Wolin's "Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism." Same idea.
All in all, not even a decent picture.
I caught wind of your situation on some other thread, Cheeky. Best of luck, buddy, hang in there.
Here's a better clip- Marla spinning [@ 1:40] on Radio Zero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRbKzumSPVw&NR=1
Damn, I wish I could play this game, but obviously only with other people's money.
Fun, Fun, Fun!
Martin Armstrong details all of this.
The PhiBro Buffet silver manipulation was also detailed by Martin Armstrong in "It's Just Time" (pages 60-61)
martin got squeezed on that too.
As a "civilian" it is both interesting and disturbing to get a glimpse of how the pros play the game.
Another pro, Silver Analyst Ted Bulter, just posted an interview describing his meeting with the CFTC reference the PM Futures Market Manipulation. There some interesting tidbits provided there as well:
http://www.24hgold.com/english/contributor.aspx?article=2800082524G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Theodore+Butler&mk=1
this is awesome, thanks for the link.
Then some slick blokes at a blog called zero hedge start to pump physcial PMs while they sell of the lots they bought over the past few years. Maybe that's the truth as well? I mean seriously, how can a working man trust any information, from anyone? Well it really doesn't matter because I'm broke as fuck anyways. That's the answer. The real question is where does the shooting start? I want to be there.
You won't see it coming!
No way a couple thousand people, half of whom are out of work, are going to pump up any market
60 oz each would clean out a certain Canadian bullion bank. I think the community as a whole could handle that.
Yea - we could. I don't think the self-proclaimed minions here realize how much of a difference they could make if they wanted to. The global elite are outnumbered, what like, 10,000 to 1?
I am just a wee little snowflake....but when the blizzard comes there's nothing anyone can do about it.
Or as they used to say in Tehm Intertubez: "Route around the damage".
The oligarchy is the damage.
For your perusal...It would be very wise of you to study our disclaimer, our privacy policy and our (non)policy on conflicts / full disclosure.
Just saying... and I have no skin in any markets other than the people who I consider fellow travelers and yes, as much as can be said in this cybersituation, very good friends.
Trade on, my friend.
ZH controls the world. Now you know. Either join us or die. Muhahaha!
Hmm makes me think we should get 4chan in on Ag buying. ZH youth brigade
We are ZeroHedge. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.
Our Linux box is maxed out. We will assimilate additional servers. Resistance is...well, you know...
I don't profess to be an expert but if "up of 15 cents near the close to finish at 435ish around noon", doesn't that make 425 'in the money'.
I lost it about there.
i think he is referring to pin risk. 425s are in the money. no doubt. 425 puts are not, and only a moron would exercise 425 puts or 450 calls. or so he thought
YES
deleted.
Different places & faces, same action.
Mind distraction..for the soul..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6250nv1DtyM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV-Ewng8CEM&feature=related
For proper balance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSGYoqoR6fQ&feature=related
ah, ZH isn't just for sex and finance, add a little pleasure sharing†
geopol--thnx-it works-one back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNiVA9XX234
this youtube, is such a gift to mankind.
damn, these raw footage video's of artists is simply climaxic in a sense.
i wonder, how does youtube make money? the beauty in sharing is incredible.
my problem i had these videos of bob dylan's rolling thunder tour '76, bookmarked and now
This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.
where did it go?
i am heart broken†
by velobabe
on Tue, 04/13/2010 - 20:30
#299322
this youtube, is such a gift to mankind.
This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.
**********************************
Not the dylan tune you want--
but maybe this one will work--
one of his best--imo--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azob0x2F3gc
yeah, got street legal
but where did rolling thunder tour go?
i would pay for it, if i could.
why do these videos go away?
HARD RAIN†
oh well, got the audio just not the visual.
If music is food for the soul, play on!
KRS-ONE / DJ REVOLUTION - THE DJhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3_Ep9uG1E
thanks for the great tip!
I only understood about 20% of what he wrote. Okay, maybe 10%.
A very interesting read imo.
yes, helped me get in the mindset of how the "market" opperates and also has changed through the years. how anyone can deal with an IB at this juncture just baffles me. I guess everyone just assumes they are so small to even bother to fleece... "eh, I'm only out 1$"
dam TD...great read.... maybe its like buying Greek debt to hide my short Euro position as i then dump the bonds back on the market and take all the suckers who bit to the toilet....
Now this TAKES THE CAKE...
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63C5IT20100413
Helicopter Ben says it is "more important than ever for people to become financially knowledgeable."
I wonder why Ben? Do you know something we don't know?
Is it because you have ruined our currency? Huh Ben?
Because you are somehow responsible for not being knowledgable enough to take responsibility for being caught in a fraudulant shredder. You can't cheat an honest man. Ok you totally can. I'm sure people are taught all about our financial system and how it operates. Ok. Not true. You have to read conspiricay theories and be branded a communist or a kook if you understand he truth.
Just forget it. It's all your fault. We wouldn't be so bad if you were able to stop us from being bad. So what if we shoot people who try to teach you. Oh fuck it. It's your fault. It's always your fault.
Hep,
I have a friend who is one of the serious "conspiracy theory" type guys. He thinks everything is a government coverup.
We used to make fun of him. Then I started saying "you know, if 10% of what he says is true, we're in trouble." Then I started thinking that maybe 20% of it was true.
Now I've figured out that some of the stuff the Fed is doing really makes a lot of those black helicopter theories look like recess at the kindergarten.
Yep. It's like this. You take a fucktard let him make thousands of people ego extensions of himself. I go to dream land talk to one of these fucktard couples. They live in a mansion starts babbling on about how the people who live in the apartments connected to the mansion are getting silverfish in their hot water heater. I pull out all his pipes and show him that their water heater heats the apartments water heaters and the silverfish problem is all their fault.
It's like this always. Dealing with fuckups who screw everything up but can't get the results they want. They know they are doing the wrong thing but they do it anyway because it kinda of sort of works until they are streteched out over a block of wood with a guillotine crashing through their worthless necks. But right up to that point they brag out their ass about might makes right right makes might. It's working you're just jealous.
So I got some stupid dork saying I OWE HIM 5 gold coins the other night. I go to the grocery store and some lying motherfucker starts trying to get as much money from me as possible talking about he seved in the marines with me telling him that I hate marines and people shouldn't join the army and gang up on other people. I gave him 20 dollars just because lying or not he was in need and his fucked up gang was taking care of him. Then last night some stupid cunt trying to make me focus on this stupid silver fish problem like it means one GODDAMN thing. You get to the root of any problem and start hacking away at the roots and you find out just what giant fucking wooden ass liars the trees are.
Log cabins bitches!!!!
"Either you trade for yourself, or you trade for others. Period."
The key problem in my view, plus the fact that retail investors and some analysts don't realise that COMEX is not the be all and end all and that it can be window dressed with the trader's real position in the OTC market.
Yeah but Bron in the end its all just paper. Do you really believe all that crap that they feed you at Perth Mint? Get physical.
Get GOLD!
Whoooaa nellie, is the perth mint no good?? Thought it might be a good spot to diversify out of the US.
I wouldn't bother with any form of paper PMs. Hold real bullion as insurance, not as an investment. Are you willing to bet that Perth will have the bullion when you want delivery? Not when PM leverage is 100 to 1.
It was my understanding you could actually get your own numbered drawer with your own bullion. It's been a while since I've looked into it but pretty sure this is the case. Don't want to have all my eggs in one basket.
If your that worried, then get physical and go set up a safety deposit box in another country. I'm not a fan of safety deposit boxes but I would trust them more then any paper gold holdings. And if nothing else you can use it as an excuse to take a vacation. "No I had to go to ____________! It was a financial necessity"
Choose carefully, mon amico! Ciao!
I trust PVC pipe, buried in the Earth. Dessicants for the firearms.
JUMP! you fuckers - so I don't have to dig.
No safe deposit boxes! They call a bank holiday and close the bank and your shiny is tied up. What if the Fed's latest fiat is to go through everyone's box, think you will stand a chance? Bury the stuff in your back yard! Make a fake electrical box in the wall, put a plate on the outside and your shiny inside! So many ways to hid the shiny! Be an American....be creative.
We don't do safety deposit boxes, but do allocated and numbered bars if you want. You can also come an audit it or appoint someone else to audit it whenever you want (without notice).
From your (perth mint) website....
"Allocated
Allocated storage is the traditional way of holding precious metals. Clients purchase specific physical coins or bars from the Mint. The Mint removes these from its operating inventory and places them in the Perth Mint Depository vault under the client's account number (to preserve client's privacy from vault staff).
Allocated precious metal is therefore segregated from the Mint's operating inventory and is held under a custody arrangement. Allocated metal does not appear on The Perth Mint's balance sheet.
At purchase, clients pay for the precious metal in the bar or coin, the relevant fabrication charges, and one year's storage fees."
Like I said before, when the day comes that the music stops and 100 people are fighting to get possession of the same 1oz of gold that they all claim to own just try to take delivery of your "allocated" gold from Perth (or anyone else for that matter).
If you don't hold it you don't own it.
Get GOLD!
"you could actually get your own numbered drawer ".... WTF is this about? Send me your shiny and I will send you a pair of panties with a number tatoo-ed on the back! Deal?
You can trust them with your money. Trust them.
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I wouldn't trust them with mine in this building situation, tho'.
I am not a mushroom http://goldchat.blogspot.com/2008/05/about-this-blog.html
Do you really believe all that crap Hommel and others feed you about the Perth Mint? The Mint is not a bank, our unallocated is 1:1 backed, we don't have a prop desk and we do not lend client metal.
Just because there are many rats out there doesn't mean everyone is a rat. If you don't want to trust us, fine, we refine over 300 tonnes a year and make it into coins and bars so a very happy to sell some of it to you.
I like your answer Bron.
Sorry, I took (take) physical possession. I don't know about Perth, they may walk on water; however, when the long arm of the US government reaches in, no one is safe. I am not talking about confiscation, I'm talking about taxation. US government mandates that investment firms report stock dividend earnings via 1099-DIV. You don't have a say in the situation. What if, you had to start reporting your annual "earnings" in increase in metals AND the Perth was mandated to provide that information? Do you think the Perth is going to cover your A$$ets or theirs? As it is now, metals are treated as a capital asset with gains/losses upon disposition. If it is never disposed of, there are no taxes to report...held indefinitely until you die and the children "find" it. I am sure that inheritance tax applies, but if it's not in the "system", who can say for sure from whence it came or where it goes?
Good luck Man. I hope its there when you need it.
Another "civilian" here, so largely over my head. But it strikes me that thinking of PMs in terms of paper (ETFs) carries all the equivalent risks of the equities market, all the same games. Taking delivery, however, and holding the metal is a long-term strategy. I get the sense that PM fans are trying to prepare in the event that ALL paper goes tits up. That is not a short-term or even medium-term mindset. It is an examination of the structural hazards imbedded at every level of our current markets: equities, bonds, or commodities. If the SHTF, what is the best option? I think a person can do worse than holding physical.
cant buy a ham and cheese sandwich with gold at a deli. buy a gun instead. make it a golden gun if you feel safer. we'll all be robbing sandwiches with guns if gold is the currency anyway.
silver quarters (pre-1965) will always be money
Gold doesn't buy a ham and cheese sandwich YET.
To make ham sandwiches, you could buy a deli. You can afford a gun to protect your ham sandwiches with, and then if someone tries to rob you.....
So does a gun get you a ham & cheese at the deli now?
Leave gold out of criminal fantasies.
So if you take physical delivery, where do you keep it? The government is raiding safe deposit boxes according to another story on ZH. I tried burying some in the garden but the neighbours are asking questions about my silver tulips!
http://www.ftknox.com/
http://www.securityprousa.com/arfoe31.html
Thinking I will repaint it w/ Ragnar Danneskjöld's skull and cross bones. Maybe hire my Russian friend, Pikop Andropov, to drive it. Let me know if you need him to stop by.
Circular floor safe, set in concrete flush with the floor, covered with carpet.
On top of the real safe, place a suitcase fire safe ($25 @ Target) filled with lead bars and coins so it sounds "shiny." Idiot criminals find it and haul ass.
It doesn't have to be a "long" position... PMs can be sold to local dealers. It's a good way to save up for future purchase such as a house or car... but yes, usually you don't trade a physical position daily/weekly or even monthly. It is SAVINGS, not speculation. of course I'm speculating their value goes up :-)
buying physical pm's is also a statement of intent. ie; you want an honest money system.
something is certainly happening in the gold/silver markets its very volatile at the moment and the disparity between gold and platinum seems to be widening.
Does Gordon Gekko like silver?
Where is Gordon?