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Exhaustive San Fran Fed Study Finds That, Gasp, Immigrants Are Good For The Economy
The San Fran Fed conducts yet another mindnumbingly (and taxpayer funded) obvious study, this time uncovering what everyone with half a brain knows: namely that immigrants are good for the economy. But don't tell that to all those who want the H1-B program destroyed and to seal of the Mexico-Texas border by digging a mile deep trench filled with sharks with laser beams attached to their heads. Setting aside the fact that absent a surge in immigration, and a forced household formation impetus, the demand curve of the home price equilibrium chart will continue shrinking until homes will be worth less than half, to have to explain to other economists that immigrants are a net-net positive just makes one wonder about the inbreeding trends prevalent within the Keynesian shaman elite (how about the FRBSF do a study on that for a change?). But of course, stating the obvious would not get one too far in the citation-demanding economotenure track, so instead author Giovanni Peri, uses polysyllabic words such as: "Statistical analysis of state-level data shows that immigrants expand the economy’s productive capacity by stimulating investment and promoting specialization. This produces efficiency gains and boosts income per worker. At the same time, evidence is scant that immigrants diminish the employment opportunities of U.S.-born workers." And since none of those who are convinced that immigration, and not laziness, or flawed fiscal policy, is the main reason why nobody is not only having a job, but looking for one, will actually read this paper, we once again ask politely and simply: "why the hell was this thing commissioned, and how much did the national deficit increase because of its completion?"
Either way, here is the full thing, for your single-ply amusement:
The Effect of Immigrants on U.S. Employment and Productivity
BY GIOVANNI PERI
The effects of immigration on the total output and income of the
U.S. economy can be studied by comparing output per worker and
employment in states that have had large immigrant inflows with data
from states that have few new foreign-born workers. Statistical analysis
of state-level data shows that immigrants expand the economy's
productive capacity by stimulating investment and promoting
specialization. This produces efficiency gains and boosts income per
worker. At the same time, evidence is scant that immigrants diminish the
employment opportunities of U.S.-born workers.
Immigration in recent decades has significantly increased the
presence of foreign-born workers in the United States. The impact of
these immigrants on the U.S. economy is hotly debated. Some stories in
the popular press suggest that immigrants diminish the job
opportunities of workers born in the United States. Others portray
immigrants as filling essential jobs that are shunned by other workers.
Economists who have analyzed local labor markets have mostly failed to
find large effects of immigrants on employment and wages of U.S.-born
workers (see Borjas 2006; Card 2001, 2007, 2009; and Card and Lewis
2007).
This Economic Letter summarizes recent research by Peri (2009)
and Peri and Sparber (2009) examining the impact of immigrants on the
broader U.S. economy. These studies systematically analyze how
immigrants affect total output, income per worker, and employment in
the short and long run. Consistent with previous research, the analysis
finds no significant effect of immigration on net job growth for
U.S.-born workers in these time horizons. This suggests that the economy
absorbs immigrants by expanding job opportunities rather than by
displacing workers born in the United States. Second, at the state
level, the presence of immigrants is associated with increased output
per worker. This effect emerges in the medium to long run as businesses
adjust their physical capital, that is, equipment and structures, to
take advantage of the labor supplied by new immigrants. However, in the
short run, when businesses have not fully adjusted their productive
capacity, immigrants reduce the capital intensity of the economy.
Finally, immigration is associated with an increase in average hours
per worker and a reduction in skills per worker as measured by the share
of college-educated workers in a state. These two effects have
opposite and roughly equal effect on labor productivity.
The method
A major challenge to immigration research is the difficulty of
identifying the effects of immigration on economic variables when we do
not observe what would have happened if immigration levels had been
different, all else being equal. To get around this problem, we take
advantage of the fact that the increase in immigrants has been very
uneven across states. For example, in California, one worker in three
was foreign born in 2008, while in West Virginia the comparable
proportion was only one in 100. By exploiting variations in the inflows
of immigrants across states at 10-year intervals from 1960 to 2000,
and annually from 1994 to 2008, we are able to estimate the short-run
(one to two years), medium-run (four years), and long-run (seven to ten
years) impact of immigrants on output, income, and employment.
To ensure that we are isolating the effects of immigrants rather than
effects of other factors, we control for a range of variables that
might contribute to differences in economic outcomes. These include
sector specialization, research spending, openness to trade, technology
adoption, and others. We then compare economic outcomes in states that
experienced increases in immigrant inflows with states that did not
experience significant increases.
As a further control for isolating the specific effects of immigration,
we focus on variations in the flow of immigrants that are caused by
geographical and historical factors and are not the result of
state-specific economic conditions. For example, a state may experience
rapid growth, which attracts a lot of immigrants and also affects
output, income, and employment. In terms of geography, proximity to the
Mexican border is associated with high net immigration because border
states tend to get more immigrants. Historical migration patterns also
are a factor because immigrants are drawn to areas with established
immigrant communities. These geography and history-driven flows
increase the presence of immigrants, but do not reflect state-specific
economic conditions. Hence, economic outcomes associated with these
flows are purer measures of the impact of immigrants on economic
variables.
The short- and the long-run effects of immigrants
Figure 1
Employment and income
Immigration effects on employment, income, and productivity vary by
occupation, job, and industry. Nonetheless, it is possible to total
these effects to get an aggregate economic impact. Here we attempt to
quantify the aggregate gains and losses for the U.S. economy from
immigration. If the average impact on employment and income per worker
is positive, this implies an aggregate “surplus” from immigration. In
other words, the total gains accruing to some U.S.-born workers are
larger than the total losses suffered by others.
Figures 1 and 2 show the response of key economic variables to an
inflow of immigrants equal to 1% of employment. Figure 1 shows the
impact on employment of U.S.-born workers and on average income per
worker after one, two, four, seven, and ten years. Figure 2 shows the
impact on the components of income per worker: physical capital
intensity, as measured by capital per unit of output; skill intensity,
as measured by human capital per worker; average hours worked; and
total factor productivity, measuring productive efficiency and
technological level. Some interesting patterns emerge.
Figure 2
Capital intensity, hours per worker, and total factor productivity
First, there is no evidence that immigrants crowd out U.S.-born
workers in either the short or long run. Data on U.S.-born worker
employment imply small effects, with estimates never statistically
different from zero. The impact on hours per worker is similar. We
observe insignificant effects in the short run and a small but
significant positive effect in the long run. At the same time,
immigration reduces somewhat the skill intensity of workers in the
short and long run because immigrants have a slightly lower average
education level than U.S.-born workers.
Second, the positive long-run effect on income per U.S.-born worker
accrues over some time. In the short run, small insignificant effects
are observed. Over the long run, however, a net inflow of immigrants
equal to 1% of employment increases income per worker by 0.6% to 0.9%.
This implies that total immigration to the United States from 1990 to
2007 was associated with a 6.6% to 9.9% increase in real income per
worker. That equals an increase of about $5,100 in the yearly income of
the average U.S. worker in constant 2005 dollars. Such a gain equals
20% to 25% of the total real increase in average yearly income per
worker registered in the United States between 1990 and 2007.
The third result is that the long-run increase in income per worker
associated with immigrants is mainly due to increases in the efficiency
and productivity of state economies. This effect becomes apparent in
the medium to long run. Such a gradual response of productivity is
accompanied by a gradual response of capital intensity. While in the
short run, physical capital per unit of output is decreased by net
immigration, in the medium to long run, businesses expand their
equipment and physical plant proportionally to their increase in
production.
How can these patterns be explained?
The effects identified above can be explained by adjustments businesses
make over time that allow them to take full advantage of the new
immigrant labor supply. These adjustments, including upgrading and
expanding capital stock, provide businesses with opportunities to expand
in response to hiring immigrants.
This process can be analyzed at the state level (see Peri and Sparber
2009). The analysis begins with the well-documented phenomenon that
U.S.-born workers and immigrants tend to take different occupations.
Among less-educated workers, those born in the United States tend to
have jobs in manufacturing or mining, while immigrants tend to have
jobs in personal services and agriculture. Among more-educated workers,
those born in the United States tend to work as managers, teachers,
and nurses, while immigrants tend to work as engineers, scientists, and
doctors. Second, within industries and specific businesses, immigrants
and U.S.-born workers tend to specialize in different job tasks.
Because those born in the United States have relatively better English
language skills, they tend to specialize in communication tasks.
Immigrants tend to specialize in other tasks, such as manual labor. Just
as in the standard concept of comparative advantage, this results in
specialization and improved production efficiency.
Figure 3
Communication/manual skills among less-educated U.S.-born workers
Note: The data on average communication/manual
skills by state are from Peri and Sparber (2009), obtained from the
manual and communication intensity of occupations, weighted according to
the distributional occupation of U.S.-born workers.
If these patterns are driving the differences across states, then in
states where immigration has been heavy, U.S.-born workers with less
education should have shifted toward more communication-intensive jobs.
Figure 3 shows exactly this. The share of immigrants among the less
educated is strongly correlated with the extent of U.S.-born worker
specialization in communication tasks. Each point in the graph
represents a U.S. state in 2005. In states with a heavy concentration
of less-educated immigrants, U.S.-born workers have migrated toward
more communication-intensive occupations. Those jobs pay higher wages
than manual jobs, so such a mechanism has stimulated the productivity
of workers born in the United States and generated new employment
opportunities.
To better understand this mechanism, it is useful to consider the
following hypothetical illustration. As young immigrants with low
schooling levels take manually intensive construction jobs, the
construction companies that employ them have opportunities to expand.
This increases the demand for construction supervisors, coordinators,
designers, and so on. Those are occupations with greater communication
intensity and are typically staffed by U.S.-born workers who have moved
away from manual construction jobs. This complementary task
specialization typically pushes U.S.-born workers toward better-paying
jobs, enhances the efficiency of production, and creates jobs. This
task specialization, however, may involve adoption of different
techniques or managerial procedures and the renovation or replacement
of capital equipment. Hence, it takes some years to be fully realized.
Conclusions
The U.S. economy is dynamic, shedding and creating hundreds of
thousands of jobs every month. Businesses are in a continuous state of
flux. The most accurate way to gauge the net impact of immigration on
such an economy is to analyze the effects dynamically over time. Data
show that, on net, immigrants expand the U.S. economy’s productive
capacity, stimulate investment, and promote specialization that in the
long run boosts productivity. Consistent with previous research, there
is no evidence that these effects take place at the expense of jobs for
workers born in the United States.
References
Borjas, George J. 2006. “Native Internal Migration and the Labor Market Impact of Immigration.” Journal of Human Resources 41(2), pp. 221–258.
Card, David. 2001. “Immigrant Inflows, Native Outflows, and the Local Labor Market Impacts of Higher Immigration.” Journal of Labor Economics 19(1), pp. 22–64.
Card, David. 2007. “How Immigration Affects U.S. Cities.” University College London, Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration Discussion Paper 11/07.
Card, David. 2009. “Immigration and Inequality.” American Economic Review, Papers and Proceedings 99(2), pp. 1–21.
Card, David, and Ethan Lewis. 2007. “The Diffusion of Mexican Immigrants during the 1990s: Explanations and Impacts.” In Mexican Immigration to the United States, ed. George J. Borjas. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.
Peri, Giovanni, and Chad Sparber. 2009. “Task Specialization, Immigration, and Wages.” American Economic Journal: Applied Economics 1(3), pp. 135–169.
Peri, Giovanni. 2009. “The Effect of Immigration on Productivity: Evidence from U.S. States.” NBER Working Paper 15507.
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H1-b's do the same thing to skilled/semi-skilled work that illegal immigrants do to low-skill/unskilled work.
A study was done by Tambe and Hitt that demonstrated enough of a wage decrease to have the paper killed.
(duplicate, delete)
I prefer cheap strawberries over expensive strawberries
The percentage of food costs which labor makes up is soooo minute your irrelevant comment is not worthy of rebuke.
It depends on the food (since you decided to generalize), strawberries are very labor intensive since much of the work must be done by hand. Hiring illegal immigrants who you don't need to register and provide any additional services can have a significant impact on your profit.
You are wrong when it comes to strawberries, sorry Bro...
Who cares about strawberries, unskilled agricultural labor is mostly done by H2A visa holders. Strawberries would be cheap either way, labor does not cost very much.
Strawberry picker goes to emergency room for bee sting, sends wife to emergency room to give birth...strawberry labor is very expensive. The farmer may shave a few bucks on his costs but that is about it, the rest of us pick up the tab in other places.
Don't forget the six kids in public schools that cost 11k a year to educate!
Six kids X 11k = 66k a year.
Even if they have one child, that's still 11k a year added to the price of the labor.
Only the government subsidizes it, and the corporations don't have to pay. Corporations are merely shifting their duty to pay people to live to the government.
Yup, but if the illegal didn't have the job, some uneducated american teenager with 6 kids on state welfare and food stamps would
or maybe not since taking care of 6 kids is a full time job
whereismyorange
upyourass
I buy only American strawberries, picked locally by American, and the cost difference is actually lower, there is no empirical data, as usual, to support your specious claims.
George Will, is that you?
LEGAL immigrants are not only welcome but embraced and, clearly, good for society and the economy. ILLEGAL immigrant can go fuck off.
Sorry, that's just how it is. The fact that someone can walk over the border to claim the prize that millions wait for in the mailbox due to 'incovienent geography' makes me want to fucking puke.
Of course, we'll blurr this into some sort of racial arguement...right?
"Of course, we'll blurr this into some sort of racial arguement...right?"
They don't have a leg to stand on considering how Mexico treats illegals...oh, I mean, ummm...immigrants from Guatemala and other neighbors to the south of them.
Haz lo que yo digo, no lo que hago !
Pfft - hasn't stopped them from using that argument for years and it's not going to stop them now.
"Pfft - hasn't stopped them from using that argument for years and it's not going to stop them now."
No it hasn't doc...LOL...Pesi looks through a friggin keyhole and proclaims to see the world.
Typical elitist abuse of the observable...no no...NO!...look over here!
No discussion of the cost on society to house, feed & clothe the criminal element within these multitudes. No discussion of welfare once the job is gone. As I've outlined, no ethical or moral cumpunction about abusing a human being based on cost.
And overriding all, no discussion of the break down in society over time when law is ignored. When that happens...and some seem to be trying earnestly, all hell breaks loose.
No sane person wants that.
I'm out.
SeeYa
Oh, resorting to that human rights stuff and Amnesty Int'l documents again, are we?
Logic, thy name is sanity....
Every Mexican who has taken the legal route to get here should have their approvals fast tracked at which time they should be welcomed with open arms.
The rest should be sent to Club Gitmo.
Is this a joke? Which way is the economy expanding? Yes, immigration is a plus for the elites who live in guarded enclaves and out of touch. Why are the states with largest immigrant populations such as California and Florida going bankrupt? According to the conclusions of this report, these states should be economically booming and be the most productive.
Bingo! hey Mr. "Stickler for logic"; answer the man! Why is this not the case?
Incidently I've lived in the S/W since dirt was 2 days old and almost all fruit pickers are paid per box, bucket etc and I've seen many walk with over $200 in cash for a a 10-11 hour day. They bust ass but get well paid if they are good. Milestones
I guess you were trying in your own feeble way to address me, and to you I say, "Fuck off."
yeah, h1b is much worse as it drains high paying, high skill jobs.
The problem isn't immigrants coming here. The problem is our jobs going there.
I realize actually trying to consider ALL variables, and holding them in your brain concurrently, may be quite an intellectual feat, but you contradict yourself.
The problem, as they have designed it, is manifold. The problem is that they bring workers over here by illegal human trafficking rings, by enticing illegals here with the aid of their foreign subsidiaries, by ruining their own economies, AND offshore a humongous amount of jobs, at all levels (not simply the oft-repeated [why do they only mention one frigging category, BTW?] manufacturing jobs).
The only jobs they haven't offshored yet are CEO jobs and crooked pols. And the problem is immigrants being persuaded to come to a country where social mobility is at its worse among ALL the OECD countries. (When the money trusts of the late 1800s and early 1900s brought over Chinese illegals by the boatload, it was for the very same reasons. To undermine wages, unions, etc.)
Please try reading for a change....
So I basically agree with the study above that is described as "mindnumbingly obvious", and you tell me that I should try reading for a change. Right.
I guess an unemployed guy in the US actually CAN mow his own lawn.
The unskilled ones are going back south in droves. Their gold rush has gone bust!
You can't MAKE them stay and you can't MAKE them buy a house.
And you shouldn't... if all they can do is fog a mirror.
Only LEGAL immigration makes sense in a down economy.
Maybe that's what Obama meanth with "Change, YES WE CAN"
Yup, indeedy, those H1-Bs are just grrrreat for Amurica.
Like that fellow back in May who left the unexploding car bomb in Times Square.
Yup, like that fellow in Hawaii who was just convicted for espionage.
Yup, those H1-Bs who come over and start all those lucrative jobs offshoring consultancies.
Yup, they are just grrrreat for America.
Oh, yeah, and they'll probably next create a zany TV show about how great it is to have one's job offshored.
Eff off.
Heh - nicely said. There's certainly one advantage to working where I spent nearly my entire professional career (as an Engineer in the US defense industry) - defense is, still, for the most part, a do-it-yourself business.
For now.
Actually, I most humbly thank you for your response but feel it important to respectfully re-align your thinking in this area.
Back in 1978, I first began becoming politically active with respect to jobs offshoring (although was politically active in other areas prior).
With a political group we met with members of the Black Congressional Caucus (I believe it was Rangel and Conyers, although I might be mistaken, it was many years back) to criticize them for taking defense-related jobs off the "couldn't be offshored" legally list.
The BCC had created, and was lobbying for that as well as extending tax breaks to corporations which offshored defense jobs (they claimed it was for "diversity" sake, although laying off a black or white or other worker, and offshoring their jobs to a homogenous Asian country fails to count as "American diversity" in my diary).
We failed in our attempts to alter their thinking and they passed their legislation.
Which was why Northrup Grumman, and Airbus almost got that fueling air tanker contract (thankfully somebody finally got the message that the Bush family owns the controlling shares in Grumman!).
Which was how I met a fellow American programmer once on a defense contracted out job, working for Aerospatiale, who later would move on to a remote piloting hardware/software project on the West Coast, whom I would one day read his name, on a list of dead passengers, aboard one of those four airliners which crashed on 9/11/01.
Curious, hmmmm....
Good points, all - and yeah, I know it happens.
I worked on subs, though. Gotta tell you, not a whole lot of outsourcing going on there, if you know what I mean!
Cheers -
Why is it that everyone I know from India always uses the ending "Cheers" ???
Although I have run into the submediocre and half-assed occasional IT who likes to ape them....
Let's look at the facts. H1-B's created a lot of the companies that made Silicon Valley what it is. Look its not like you can somehow control talent and capture its fruits in America. What would you have preferred? Sun Microsystems, HP, Microsoft, Apple scattered all over the world where its key people originally came from?
Like someone said there is a huge difference between H1-B's and illegals. Lets not let our anger over what Wall St did cloud our judgement over legal immigration.
Apple was created by 2 men working out of a garage. As was HP, and Microsoft. White American males. Today, white American males with engineering degrees don't even get interviews with major tech firms, and certainly can't afford garages. H1-B's do not 'create' companies, in fact, such is prohibited under law (the H1-B visa must be sponsored by an already existing firm!).
Key people within Apple are almost entirely Americans or Canadians. Not H1-B's. H1-B's are cheap, commodity slave labour, and the program should be cancelled. True "best and brightest" talent can be imported under the O-1 visa.
+100,000,000
lets not split hairs here shall we?... True H1-B's cannot start companies themselves because of immigration law; NOT that they are not inherently capable. Sun had 4 founders Vinod Khosla, Andy, Bill & Scott ( not all were white and born in America).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Microsystems
My point is H1-B's have done good things here and have added value. Its not really like you are putting it....that only white Americans contribute but others steal. Sure whites do contribute but even their forefathers were immigrants from Europe once who came looking for better opportunities and now their children have created companies as time has passed. Who's to say that the H1-B's of yesterday who settle here legally or their kids will not create any companies in the future?
Weren't many of the founders and early employees of Sun, actually Stanford professors? Certainly if they were able to obtain professorships at such an esteemed institution, they would have qualified for the O-1 Visa, a visa that is issued based on scientific and academic merit.
You're correct in saying, there are a small number of H1-B's that have some truly revolutionary contributions, but, by far, the vast majority of H1-B's serve little purpose in the US labour market other than to displace US citizens who have invested small fortunes in their training and development, and suppress the wages and career opportunities of others.
Look, you just cannot pick off the fruits without any costs. It is unlikely that an extremely accomplished dude say from a third world country from Asia will just wind up his business which is already successful and apply for a O-1 to get here, because by then his key people behind it are already found outside the US and his business is already efficient because of the labor costs savings. What do you think you would do? You have a running business and paying low salaries and you have a dedicated bunch who will stick with you... give it all up and move to America where your costs are higher and start all over again?
Its like this....find me a tree where each and every flower produces a fruit and each and every one of which can be sold at the top price it would fetch in the market. Is it possible? of course NO.
Here is a link of a first generation H1-B who is doing his best to solve a real problem
http://www.bloomenergy.com/about/company-history/
Dr Sridhar here came from India. You send him out and the company will be formed outside the US and we shall pay dearly in the long haul.
Bloomenergy is a joke. The idea is to save energy on transmission by piping the natural gas to local substations which will produce electricity locally. Guess what? It's not going to work because the money you would save is cancelled out exactly by the money it would take to build the local substations and their ancillary support systems. Not to mention the fact if everyone did this the price of natural gas would shoot up and make it that less efficient. It's a fucking pipe dream that will never work. Think internet start-up dot bomb in a fuel cell. It's going to suck up a lot of VC money though but it's never going to go anywhere.
Many inventions originally appeared unfeasible; not all but there definitely are some improve greatly over time with incremental efficiencies that close any gaps that prevent them from being widely used. Who knows?
It was once thought that the transistor cannot replace the vacuum tubes, IC's were meant to be in the lab, LCD's will never be bought by the common man but look at where they are today.
I heard those same bullshit arguments 2 bubbles ago about a lot of internet startups. They didn't come true for pets.com and they're not going to come true for a "build a local power station on your street" ideas either. Guess what loosing money on each sale but making it up on volume doesn't work.
Denmark tried that in the 1980's. The houses served from the decentralised power plants are virtually unsalable because of the enourmous energy bills - around the equivalent of USD 8000 per year, out of income-taxed money. The normal is about USD 2000 for a house.
A quick default of the power plant would of course fix that - except that the setup was that the homeowners entered into "I/S" which owns the power plant and distribution network. An I/S has the feature that the owners share the responsibility equally amongst them. This also create the incentive to just bugger off sticking the remaining owners of the I/S with the bill - except for the facts that all mortgages are recourse mortgages in Denmark. NEVER "invest" in an I/S.
At some point, about now, I guess, something will crack people will leave anyway, declare bankrupcy, and the mess will again become the taxpayers problem. Because debt must never be written off, some fat fuck will be holding them bonds and go into a nacissistic fit of rage if they lose value.
If you have to generate energy locally, do it inside the home.
The profit comes mainly from the fact that every connection to your home is a conduit for taxes so, using only heating oil or natural gas is a huge saving in costs.
Like this: http://www.ecpower.eu/
thanks, most intelligent DarkMath, you have described the energy sink fallacy these douchebags like redarrow always use.
Takes more energy to produce than the energy it produces.
Not too many rocket scientists posting here today, huh?
"What would you have preferred? Sun Microsystems, HP, Microsoft, Apple scattered all over the world where its key people originally came from? "
What are you smoking man, are you high? The key people from Sun, HP, Microsoft and Apple came from abroad? You're a fruit cake. Is this what H1-Bs think? I've worked with H1-Bs from India before, they did nothing. Maybe 1 guy out of 20 did something really useful and creative. End of story.
If these Indian and Chinese engineers were doing something so great wouldn't we be seeing leading technology companies being started in India and China? The sad answer is we don't because all they have going for them is slave wages. Big fucking deal.
What are you 10 years old? The point here is that these companies benefit extremely from finding and hiring the best from all places over the world. They will be run out of business if their costs are not aligned with what a competitor has. Not all H1B's are born equal, some are lousy and some are awesome, the system separates the grain from the chaff over time. What I mean is that great minds have global origins and stand out over time by starting companies that revolutionize our lives.
What about the top American Citizen grads who don't even get the time of day from tech firms when they apply, because the firms are hooked on cheap H1-B labour instead?
Microsoft, Google, Oracle, Cisco, etc., all heavy H1-B users, only screen fewer than 5% of applicants for employment. Are you honestly trying to convince us that amongst the 95% of applicants who aren't screened, that there isn't some top talent?
Why is it then that the top grads in my Electrical/Computer Engineering program, don't even receive the time of day from MS/GOOG/ORCL/CSCO when they apply? Why are MIT CS grads unemployed if firms are truly interested in hiring the best and brightest? Sure, shutting down H1-B might exclude a few bright Indians from the US IT industry, but most certainly, forcing American tech firms to interview and hire Americans will very likely cause the inclusion of many bright Americans into the US IT industry who otherwise would have been excluded because of the H1-B program's efficacy at keeping America's brightest unemployed/underemployed.
The other dangerous thing about H1-B and its wage suppression, is that it deprives engineering talent of the salaries they need to feel financially secure, to own garages, and to invest in start-ups. This is pretty much why the innovation culture of the Silicon Valley has ground to a halt.
"What are you 10 years old?" You've said that too many times to too many people here. You just prove my point. Your probably an Indian H1-B and you aren't very creative hence you can't even come up with new put downs. This conversation is a microcosm of why India will never be a technology power.
Ha ha...Come up with put downs? is that all you got?
The next century will belong to Asia whether you like it or not. Just yesterday I read an article on CNBC... (sorry cannot find the link) that talked about hi tech, capital intensive industries like glass which is now being made in China by new companies. The article said that they have closed the technology gap that goes into making it in a few years (the article mentioned that it took something like a few decades here.)
The article said that they have closed the technology gap that goes into making it in a few years (the article mentioned that it took something like a few decades here.
They must be slightly retarded then, I mean, taking "a few years" when they had all the previous patents and IPR to steal? Where will they go when no-one cares to invent anything for them?
hehe^1000
I actually came in contact with an H1-B who did something entirely unique, something I've never seen another American worker, nor any other worker for that matter, ever accomplish.
This total douchebag actually cracked the platen on a copy machine; that's the thick glass one places the object to be copied upon.
Un-frigging-believable. Evidently, they are actually good for something besides creating the most Rube Goldberg-circuitous-convolute pieces of crap software.
How about all those IT Indians and their dot.bomb Internet start ups. How many hundreds of billions did it cost US investors. Who do you think started all those Managed Care Insurance plans---an unscrupulous Indian who bribed non-for-profit hospitals board of directors and then converted them to for profit units. How about subprime credit card lending---an Indian immigrant, yes in Providian.
You have a trifecta of Health Care, consumer Credit Card debt and ponzi eyeball investments that just about ruined America. Isn't immigration great?
it isn't great...
It's "excellent" (monty burns style)
Terrible study, and a terrible post in all ways.
Ask anyone employed in the semi-conductor field, or software development just how wonderful the H1-B, and H1-B1 visas and what it has done to the salaries of American Citizen employees. Ask them how they got outsourced, AND the jobs stay in India, but those "employees" get H1-B visas and do not leave India or wherever!
As for this "study", this author is toatlly aligned with "illegal immigration" promoters. Here is his page:
http://ideas.repec.org/f/ppe210.html
All of his papers read like shit, and are all about as off the wall and out there as the same economic idiots with Phd's. from "Havad Yad". Reality is merely a fantasy to these rarefied (meaning out of touch with reality) academics.
When with the "Free Market Capitalists" understand that this idiots line of thinking is unsustainable and equal to idiocy as Keynesian Economics? IT is the same stripe of academic elitism that is so detached for the reality that even the United States there is no "free Market" of "Fair Trade". Only in a theoretical setting does his thesis make any sense whatsoever.
This post and thread was a waste of perfectly good electrons!
+100,000
This clown who wrote this ultra-terrible post should have talked with Intel.
Didn't they lose $1 billion on a chip design project in India, oh, about a year or so ago?
Affirmative (I love to answer my own inquiries.)
+1000
None of us are special; we are all interchangeable cogs in a machine. Any single one of us is replaceable by one of the billions more impoverished, yet just as capable people overseas. Incorporting overseas labor markets into our own is just a race to the bottom (for workers, not the rentier class).
absofuckinglutely correct.
H1Bs are brought here NOT because there are no local workers to do the work but because MANAGEMENT is looking for CHEAP workers so they can INCREASE their OWN bonuses!!!!
That's ALL it is about.
I've worked side by side with H1Bs and managed them over the years. Some are competent, many are not, all are cheap. They lie like dogs however, and the entire H1B scam is for a staffing company to put mutually irreconcilable skills on the req and then "oh we can't find an American." Then they get an H1 who LIES and says he is an expert in both mainframe and web, Oracle and DB2, Unix and Windows, .net and J2ee, with however many years you want of experience in all of them. And, lo and behold, the resume's a hit, you're hired for cheap. Nevermind it's all lies and the only concern was to get a guy in for cheap so the branch manager can show cost cutting and earn HIMSELF a larger paycheck.
THIS is why US companies seem to be doing so much less right lately. The whole point is the share price and management bonus payments. Companies are run into the ground to serve these goals. And in my last stint at a telco, I heard constantly how expensive I was but none of these H1s could have possibly done what I did and I was earning the least I'd pulled in for the past 10 years or so on this contract. They simply would NOT pay and expected labor rates somewhere in the H1 ballpark. Fine, go fuck yourselves, hire cheap talent that is mediocre and knows it's getting fucked over to make some VP a bigger bonus check.
Do these idiot managers think those H1s are actually trying hard? Those that were competent, in my experience, slacked off BIGTIME because they knew they were getting fucked like a slave. They found ways to get that effective hourly rate up. As an architect or manager of them, you had to crack the whip to get shit done sometimes.
I officially take back all my negative remarks about you, trav7777.
Have a good day!
"THIS is why US companies seem to be doing so much less right lately. The whole point is the share price and management bonus payments. Companies are run into the ground to serve these goals."
There it is.
This country has sold itself out like a whore from top to bottom.
I still can't believe Tyler D supports illegals and H1's.....
Pure bullshit.
The welfare state is incompatible with unfettered immigration.
Negative, bot, the Corporate Welfare State (or Corporate Fascist State) thrives on unfettered immigration.
Read a book.....for a change.
+1
Another "skim the surface" study pretending to be "exhaustive"... another incomplete study pretending to give real answers.
An exhaustive study would have a breakdown of who benefits from all this immigration by quintile.
An exhaustive study would breakdown immigration by country of origin, education/skill level, marital/family status, etc...
An exhaustive study would've included taxes paid vs. benefits received; things like education costs, medicaid costs, incarceraton costs, extra language dependent adminstration costs , etc...
An exhaustive study might even include things like perceived quality of life issues like housing overcrowding, ethnic gang violence, shifting school priorities, etc...
This is not an exhaustive study; it's just another limited study which finds what every other limited study of immigration finds -- a marginal gain for the economy on the whole. I've seen a dozen other just like it.
And yet... and yet... I'm always left with the same questions when I'm done reading them.
Q. If these lower-educated, low paid, and often under-the-table immigrants can be a net-positive for this economy, then surely everyone else must be an even bigger positive, with their better educations, higher pay and bigger tax bills... and yet we have high un/under employment, budget deficits, ever increasing income disparity, and ever more trouble competing internationally. Something doesn't add up.
Q. Why don't these authors ever sort immigration by education level, country of origin, temporary vs permanent, etc..? Are they all afraid of what they might find?
Q In the rare cases where the authors include some government services in their calculation, why don't they ever seem to include them all? Education and incarceration costs rarely both make the cut in the same study. Why?
I have no doubt that immigration is in the macroest of macro senses a net positive, but we the people deserve to know far more. Which immigrants benefit us the most? Which immigrants adapt the easiest? Who should be increasing and who should be waning?
So no... this is most certainly not an exhaustive study.
Excellent synopsis.
Always ask the 5 W's and then understand when they aren't addressed that it is a propaganda or opinion piece designed to drive an agenda.
Let's eliminate the artificial pricing of labor with minimum wage levels, unions, government contract hiring costs and see how much real unemployment we would have. Stop illegal immigration and set up the equivalent of the old bracero temporary worker program. Today being in the US means automatically qualifying for a number of different subsidies be it from food stamps, healthcare, housing, schooling or whatever. No wonder citizens want to scrutinize the new entrants. A lot fewer folks would care if they didn't feel they were on the hook for benefits for every new illegal immigrant who enters the country.
I've known a number of illegal aliens working in the US. They live in shacks and every payday they wire/mail the majority of their pay to Mexico, their real home and family. Don't believe it? Check Mexicos economic stats. They depend on Oil and US$$$.
Tyler Durden, this is easily the most idiotic post you have ever written. Immigrants are not good for the country! There are vast genetic differences between the various groups of human beings. Mexicans are separated by 20,000 or more years of evolution from Eurasians, and their brains are simply not as powerful as Eurasian brains. This is why they never developed much of a civilization, never found a use for the wheel, etc., and have continued to fail on into modern times.
Consider a thought experiment: What would happen to the islands of Japan if the Japanese disappeared overnight and were replaced on a one-for-one basis by Mexicans? Would the new Japan still be the world's second (or third) largest economy? Would the new Japan still be a world leader in producing new technology? If you answered yes, then you are probably as ignorant as the Tyler Durden that posted this bullshit article. Clearly the islands of Japan -- the physical land itself -- are not what has created Japanese success over the years. The Japanese people are why Japan is successful. Replace the Japanese people with Mexicans and all you've got is a bunch of impoverished Mexicans living on some islands.
The same thing is true of the United States. Replace the white northern European people that created and built the U.S. over the past 400 years with Mexicans and you've got ... well, what was here before the Europeans conquered it: a bunch of Mexicans living in the Stone Age.
Unfortunately the change has already occurred. It didn't happen overnight so the decline won't be so obvious, and racial intermixing is going to make the decline occur more slowly. But make no mistake, unless the U.S. completely changes its views on genetics (which isn't going to happen) the U.S. is terminal. Average intelligence will (continue to) drop, the U.S. will fall further and further behind in advanced technology and economic strength, and a superior foreign culture will take over -- perhaps China, perhaps a resurgent Europe coupled with Russia. And the U.S. will deserve to be enslaved or obliterated for having failed to plan ahead. The weak shall perish.
yeah, I am constantly pissed off by hearing how the US has all this crime, the US has this awful 'health care' system as measured by QoL metrics, the US is "behind in math," etc.
NO. Blacks and hispanics are. They are 3rd world populations.
People talk about societal breakdown and riots, over half of the violent crime in the US is committed by blacks, roughly a 3rd by hispanics. If you have large concentrations of them, expect little Mexico or little Africa to break out if there is a disruption in civilized services. This is precisely why the Kobe Quake or SD fires had no riots and were ordered, whereas Katrina was a clusterfuck.
What galls me is they blame whites for their miscreant behavior...whitey "abandoned" the poor Katrina refugees who were either too stupid to leave or else stayed planning to loot.
If you subtract blacks and hispanics, 25% of our population, out, you can see a COMPLETELY different picture of this country. Instead, we have a media machine run by cousins of the financial machine players, all of whom are fascinated to the point of loving admiration of savages. On television, life is upside down and ignorant people think the truth is racist.
...so ... we'll have a Mexican prez next?
The Mexican ruling class is "White." One of their recent Presidents was actually descended from a Confederate.
Depends on whether a "path to citizenship" is established by President Soetoro.
If so, then "si."
I could get behind that if there was some equal starting point in the past from which we could graph the relative fortunes of the "Blacks" and "Hispanics" and, um, "White" people in this country. Unfortunately there isn't. And don't pull out the "lots of other groups have immigrated to this country in the past and turned out fine" card. Blacks were slaves, Hispanics are brown people who arrived largely after 1960, most much later. Different ballgame now. If you open your eyes, white people aren't doing so well in the last 30 years either. Things are in decline for most people. Focus on the larger social and economic trends happening here, the causes, not the symptoms. You could have substituted the term "urban poor folks" for every instance of your use of "Black" or "Hispanic" and your rant would be more to the point. And poor folks commit most of the violent crime because that's their only option. They don't have the chance to defraud, embezzle, infringe, hire illegals, outsource, etc.
I too am irritated by cultural groups other than my own, but to attribute the problems of the nation generally to the "Blacks" and "hispanics" in this forum is petty and small minded. You are going to have to think and try a little harder. I know it feels good not to, but take that crap to the Yahoo message boards.
Hispanic is not a racial group, it merely denotes language. There are many White "Hispanics", you can find them in South Florida and Puerto Rico.
just look at the second(?) section of this year's census form for a complete listing of the various latino/hispanic immigrant types that US gov want to count.
aren't there as many subcultures of asian/african/european descent as well? why only hispanic break-down?
(so, does noticing apparent racism make one a racist? i need to know what i should be telling my friends about me...)
Dude, the major crimes are committed by white Christians and Jews in America.
Rockefeller, Peterson, Kissinger, Greenberg, Paulson (Christian Scientist, so a form of Christian), Summers, Geithner, Wolin, Kravis, etc., etc., etc.
Violent crimes are committed by violent criminals allowed in this country by the aforementioned criminals, that is true. They were violent in Latin America, when they escaped to the US to avoid prosecution. They were violent war criminals in Africa, when they escaped to the US to avoid prosecution.
Inner-city and racial violence is all too frequently committed upon members of the same groups.
Let's try to keep this discussion on a more cerebral manner, please.
And I grew up in two of the worst 'hoods in America, so I have some idea of whereof I speaketh.....
"the major crimes are committed by white Christians and Jews in America."
sadly, the dude has a major point.
hence special burning hatred for amerikan oligarchs
So you were front and center with trav7777 @ the Glen Beck "restore american honor" this weekend. Did you get your medal?
i generally appreciate your comments, lizzy.
the recipients of those honors deserve better than that. clearly you read the MSM papers this AM.
fail.
Tyler Durden wrote:
"The San Fran Fed conducts yet another mindnumbingly (and taxpayer funded) obvious study, this time uncovering what everyone with half a brain knows: namely that immigrants are good for the economy."
That perception can change.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation
"The Mexican Repatriation refers to a forced migration that took place between 1929 and 1939, when as many as one million people of Mexican descent were forced or pressured to leave the US.
The Mexican Repatriation is not widely discussed in American history textbooks;[4] in a 2006 survey of the nine most commonly used American history textbooks in the United States, four did not mention the Repatriation, and only one devoted more than half a page to the topic.[4]"
Your second post on Mexican Repatiation and totally out of context in both settings.
You have an agenda obviously for and in favor of Mexico and illegal Immigration.
Both are not good for this coungty.
LEGAL IMMIGRATION and NATIONAL ASSIMILATION go a long way to make a country as great as the US of A.
You like Mexico So much, go back. And don't pull the ole "it was Mexico first". argument. It was not. It was eleven states with tribes that did nt get along, and besides Spain and France was the problem and Mexico did not even exist as a country until Hildago.
If you do not realize that the H1-B program is destroying American Engineering and innovation, then you are not paying attention or you have a vested interest in it happening.
If you think it is a good thing to suppress/remove the wages of your fellow Americans so your stock pick can move $2, then you are a piece of #%$@ and should get what is coming to you.
As for the innovation that foreigners bring to America, I will acknowledge and agree on some points. But that is mostly gone now as the dominant business model in Silicon Valley is taking profitable business models in the US and offshoring them. Nothing new, nothing innovative. Just wage arbitrage to coutries with no cost structure or overhead. Some innovation!!
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_28/b4186048358596.htm
Read this and realize that Andy Grove (Intel) missed something in his analysis. That we are destroying and ceding our intellectual capital and resources (ie.engineers) as quickly as we did our industries. And they don't come back either.
The Fickle Finger of Fate is neither gloved or lubed.
+++ Nice!
Freddie got fingered.
+100,000,000
Immigration, legal or illegal (not much heed paid the distinction in the paper), is good for business, bad for (American) workers. No matter how shrill and repetitive your protestations to the contrary, 10s of millions of illegals and 10s of thousands of H1B's do not help amercans get jobs in the aggregate. It's retarded.
Go to Canada. Look who is doing the landscaping, construction, fast food jobs, etc. - Fucking CANADIANS. High School Kids, semi- and un-skilled adults, retirees, whatever; and yes gathering this data involved racial profiling.
Not for long, senor.
One hundred years hence, Canada will have a serious illegal immigration problem of southern Hispanics coming across from the U.S.A.
And Mexico will have become North Guatemala" by then.
Mexico/US/Canada fertility rate: about 2-3
Guatemala fertility rate: about 6
*Demography is destiny*
Illegal Unlimited Immigration + Unlimited H1-B = Lower Wages = Lower of Standard of living for the US = More money concentrated in a few elites hands.
The standard of living decline had been postponed for a few decades due to debt expansion, but now we're at the end of that.
If you as a country want to prosper, you need to do the exact opposite of what we have been doing for the last few decades.
H1Bs replace "native" software engineers who themselves replaced millions of clerical workers here in the USA.
And no doubt someone will replace the H1Bs.
the robots will... we're counting on you, Japan.
...make the goddamn robots, already.
http://static1.hln.be/static/FOTO/pe/2/5/1/media_xl_3849706.jpg?20100831082344
NASA and GM made a robot. But GM was responsible to make it mobile... so you actually have half of a robot...
made in america... yihaa...
If those Japanese women 'bots look like Japanese women, I'm there (but I'd prefer the Japanese women -- man, I hate those Japanese guys!).
Keep in mind that billionaires Murdoch and Bloomberg are the biggest backers of immigration reform, as it is currently dressed up.
Negative, we've heard that song before. Disinformation and misdirection are the norm.
Did Tancredo EVER pass any constructive legislation in that regard?
NEGATIVE! But he sure did talk real purdy......
Bloombergsh*t claimed he wanted to improve NYC's educational system, so the douche brings in Jack Welch, whose only claim to financial fame was, beginning in 1985, offshoring as many technical and professional GE jobs as possible, and turning GE into a private equity company.
Now NYC's educational system is much worse (something about that privatization of public education, me suspects) and much more expenseive.
GE, by the way, only exists now because it availed itself of those TARP funds --- and yet with those funds, and all that war profiteering and death profiteering they do, still didn't pay any federal taxes in 2009.
Eff 'em.
http://www.dallasfed.org/research/pubs/fotexas/fotexas_petersen.html
The dallas fed says that in 2040, 30.1% of the workforce of Texas will not have a high school education. How is this good?
You guys/gals are all arguing over H1B, most immigrants are chain migrants. They are sponsored by family members, they are not skilled, and they have no wealth whatsoever.
Aggregrate GDP can be increased but big deal, this does not necessarily mean per capita GDP. Then of course there are environmental and resource concerns.
well we got ourselves an immigrant in the white house and look how good that turned out..
this article feels like a "study" from CFR center of NWO elites.
TD is loosing it or is it all a put on to rile up the rubes?
At least the Muslim community is happy.
What makes President Obama unique?
Negative, the president is as establishment as the come.
Is it that he's an Afro-Saxon, or the first half-Black American in the White House?
Nope.
Is it that he has two half-brothers who are half-Jewish?
Nope.
Is it that he is a relatively young man in the presidency?
Nope.
What makes President Obama unique is that he's the first individual to come through the University of Chicago system (a k a the "Rockefeller System") who claims to be a democrat!
After twelve years as an academic at the University of Chicago, nobody could possibly be a democrat.
And after all those presidential appointments of Wall Street lobbyists, pharmaceutical industry lobbyists, Monsanto lobbyists, private equity banksters, and Goldman Sachs vermin, it is definite that he's no democrat.
He mentioned his economics team the other day? What frigging economics team?
I'm extremely familiar with every single one of his appointments, having studied them all (those I wasn't already familiar with, and since I'm familiar with financial crooks and neocons, I was familiar with most of them) and became nauseated with each one, excepting Van Jones and Susan Crawford, who are no longer with his administration.
Yet I saw nary an actual economist?
So, dumping a crapload of cheap labor on the economy is good for the standard of living? Is that their story and they're sticking to it?
I don't know Italian. But is "giovanni peri" a phrase that means "head full of shit?"
what people don't want to believe is the truth. women working is good, black people voting is good, women voting is good, Indians with property rights is good, immigrants coming to America legally or otherwise--- is good. the reason is that TAXPAYERS are good and eventually, all family members contribute toward expanding the economy.
no really: its been this way for THOUSANDS of years.... the only thing that kills the economy is the LACK of people. Ask someone in Kansas.
http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Global-Capitalism-Johan-Norberg/dp/1930865473
Shawn Mesaros, Pamria LLC
We obviously do not have a lack of people, U6 unemployment is officially around 17%. The economy is absolutely terrible.
Speaking of so many people, when is enough? Population obviously cannot increase indefinitely, and it also tends to grow via compounding numbers.
No, what people (and I dare say those in Kansas especially) don't want is for globalization to reduce an enviable quality of life to the lowest common denominator - subsistence existence. Concentration of global wealth to a relative handful of people does absolutely nothing to raise the living standards of those who were less than fortunate and not born in the first world. But it does go along way in bringing the third world to the first world.
Read my lips - fuck you.
Remus,
You obviously have an agenda. Why don't you come out and say it instead of bouncing around and insulting everyone with the same trite arguments that every Libtard has inculcated in half of this country?
C'mon...come out and say it...
"F' you...for thinking that you should have a decent paying job after working you ass off after 16+ years of school."
"F' you...for not wanting more people that look and act like me here. But I'll still call you the racist one."
F' you...for thinking that America, after 200+ years of building a great nation out of a dirt farm doesn't have the responsibility to hand that wealth to every assbackwards people."
F' you...for thinking that you want to preserve your own countries culture and way of life and not have it filled with people with shitty 3rd world mentalities that are culturally segregating the whole society."
Dude,
WTF - where the hell did you get THAT from my post? Seriously. And "libtard"? Really?!?
Hey, I am the first to admit I don't always articulate well - but...
"Concentration of global wealth to a relative handful of people does absolutely nothing to raise the living standards of those who were less than fortunate and not born in the first world. But it does go along way in bringing the third world to the first world.
this
Not sure where you were going with "this".
Jesus, that's soooo ignorant I don't know where to begin.
You obviously know nothing about the American economy (what's left of it), nor the American tax base, nor tax code.
You....are a complete douchebag!
See my previous comments on the tax base, douchebag!
Taking a side in this mind numbling stupid debate is cheap journalism - more Fox and Friends than ZH. The benefits of immigration are clear.
I'm not quite sure, the actual article was rather shallow and did not look into other factors such as education factors. Post-1965 immigration is almost entirely unskilled immigration in an increasingly knowledge based economy.
Tell that to the millions of American scientists and engineers who have been displaced and are unemployed today because of the H1-B and L-1 visa programs.
I agree with FunctionForm, and encourage all able-bodied Guatemalans to camp out in his front yard until they find jobs in his neighborhood.
not against immigration..I am against ILLEGAL immigration. Turn off the fking faucet man.....the last thing we need is watered down everything else. (Yes I am in Texas)
:(
I'll man up and proclaim I'm against ALL immigration for the next 20 years. Let's let everyone assimilate, then assess whether we want to open the doors again.
How we ended up in a situation where to be for restricted LEGAL immigration is racist, is beyond me. For folks who followed the rules and immigrated to the U.S. legally, despite lost paperwork at the totally clueless State Dept...well, no one wants to kick illegal alien ass more than those people.
to all those who think immigrant is bad or all the immigrants are mexicans...
first and foremost, all the americans are immigrants...they established themselves as americans by pushing the indians aside ..so please think where u or ur family came from and what they have found in america,...jus cos you have the american citzenship, does not mean u or ur family r not immigrant...america was made by immigrants...and yea..the mexican drug problems should never be used to give bad names to ppl coming from all over the world....
yes,,,there r no of immigrants that do more bad to society than good but not all things are good...u get some bad apples but most are good...n yea no one apple shouldnt make all apples bad,,,with good laws, that should be taken care of...
legal immigrants should have way of contributing to society,,,tryin to terminate the H1 visa and sayin immigrants are not welcome is not a wise decision since your ss or medicare at current policy will have 0, nada when u need it..let ppl who want to legally work , work freely without having to worry abt disrespect given to them as immigrant...
btw , there are many smart ppl that might contribute to make america what they have been for all of us..for a side note, japan always had issue with immigrant and never really welcomed foreigners...guess where they r now,,,,no one really talked about the issue and its effect on the economic situtation for the past lost decade in japan but yea,,,m sure immigrants had some effect there,,,,would luv to read if any articles are there abt it,,,
.always remeber all americans are immigrant in one way or other,,,jus look back at ur family tree and you 'll know ....
Ahem, former slaves are not immigrants...
Ah the naive idealist "We are all immigants" tripe. Nice. I think I'll head to youtube and watch "I'd like to buy the world a coke" commerical.
Reading I dare say is fundamental...
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Are-We-Challenges-Americas/dp/0684870541/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2
Your English is shit. Go back to grade school, or better yet your third world cess pool which you crawled out of.
Japan is a great place to live, the U.S. economy has been pretty bad for a decade now. Immigrants won't save social security, they will help ruin it. http://www.cis.org/AgingImmigrants-BirthRate-SocialSecurity
I doubt anyone has the problem with wealthy investors moving here. Campesino peasants with an eighth grade education need not apply, however.
I'm not a fucking immigrant.
im·mi·grant–noun
1.a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.
.they established themselves as americans by pushing the indians aside
Mass immigration "worked" out pretty good for the Indians ....
This seems like a farce. It Tyler Durden serious? If serious man I would like to know his demographics. Where does he live? In what industry does he work etc? How do people not see this?
I work in IT and see companies bring in immigrants via legal means and simply setting up a PC and letting them remote into a workstation. This happens while Americans are looking for jobs. A guy that would command a $60k a year job is not even considered for a $45k a year job. "Overqualified" and jobless. The miracle of immigration! The part that gauls me the most is that some of them have NO IDEA what they are doing. And they depend on the one immigrant that does and he trains them on the job while the American remains jobless. Awesome!
You know I think that if the financial sector had the same type of immigration as IT and low-skilled labor Tyler would have a different opinion.
There was that Raj guy..
I quit reading after this:
The effects of immigration on the total output and income of the U.S. economy can be studied by comparing output per worker and employment in states that have had large immigrant inflows with data from states that have few new foreign-born workers.
The states with high illegal immigration are mostly:
1.) Right to work states.
2.) Devoid of a state income tax.
Of course Texas destroys Michigan, New York etc. in this department.
You know, in an ideal world, with the knowledge that we now possess, ideas of nationalism and borders would have ceased to exist in the face of such looming problems as what to do with a global population approaching seven billion and no contemporarily feasible way to begin colonizing other planets AND the fact that we've been treating the planet that spawned us like a giant Wal-Mart, replete with enormous toilets. But hey, it's all good...blame the niggers, spics, dune-coons, WOP's, micks, injuns, etc. as much as you like, since that's the RATIONAL course of action when you realize that you're backed into a corner. I'd turn the sarcasm off, if I thought that it would really make a difference.
On that note...please kill me now.
I used to be a humanist in my younger days; life experience made me a misanthrope. It's all a great comedy, at any rate. The one thing you can count on people to do is fail.
We're going to fail soon enough, and I'll find some degree of amusement of out it.
(I've spent too many words on self-important essay-posts over the years, if you don't get it, fuck you.)
*you* = anyone it may apply to... don't lynch me yet, you dirty bipedal apes.
don't take the bait.
it's either legal or illegal. send 'em home and let the ones waiting at the *front* door in...
(ooh dam, can't call this guy a racist with *that* point of view... how do i attack him? wait, soros playbook 101 pg 2. call him a name, pg 4 attack his spelling and character, pg 6 never actually mention the issue at hand)
Tyler - you kinda blew it on this one - you want legal honest markets, but illegal people are ok, eh?
Man, what a love fest.
We are a nation of immigrants. Immigrants have been here forever, just ask the indigenous natives, who were immigrants themselves. Immigrants will be here forever. They only want what's fair. Any of you have any idea where your dogma is coming from? You're being fooled, again.
Immigrants (illegal?) only want what is fair.
Are you retarded?
some of us are citizens Marley.
some have kids and we don't want to raise them in ciudad juarez or calcutta...we have higher expectations...fair play and all that....
Death to oligarchs
In my younger years I would've called bullshit on this article. But today I know that not having a PhD means I just don't understand economics. So I guess the FED is right, right?
Listen, if you've been paying attention, nobody at the Fed understands economics, especially all those previous Fed governors giving all those pathetic interviews over the past year.
Up until about a year ago, Bernanke didn't know bupkiss about securitization and credit derivatives, assuming he's actually learned anything yet.
If you have ever read his papers, you'll know he doesn't understand the underlying economics regarding the Great Depression (his specialty, BTW).
He's never heard of the phantom funds flowing into the stock exchange from the Prohibition (1920-1933), or that securitization began in the early 1900s in America (earlier in Denmark and Germany) and really took off in the 1920's -- that is, phantom funds and securitization (sound familiar???).
Uh, okay.
Tyler, I really think you should add that sarcasm tag.
Come any immigrants that want to contribute and not suck off the tit of govt and what John Galts have built. Otherwise, stay home - America needs producers not tit suckers.
More than anything, I'd blame a failed program of assimilation on the "American" end. Education is key to behaviorial modification. These people aren't 'indoctrinated' via an American system of values. You want to blame anything, blame 'ourselves' for being greedy psychopaths that only 'care' about people we know. To hell with footing the bill for people and cultures we don't give a fuck about, right? Well, decades of this "me & my kind first" mentality have beared fruit.
Disappointing that we'll be polarizing, but what can you expect from ignoramuses? Picking sides and puffing their chests like savage animals, always failing to see the overall picture. I can't wait 'til the bullets start flying, we'll deserve everything we have coming to us. I'm not religious, or I'd say we should repent, but there's nothing to save.
Yep, towards that lovely entropy; we'll show our true faces soon. All of you keep reinforcing what I've inferred, that human-beings are a worthless species.
Lock & load, motherfuckers.
The article is garbage. And another bogus study done with the results picked ahead of time. The labor market is a market. Real people are under bid by illegal aliens for all kinds of work. Farm work is a small percentage. Illegals are schooled in how to get the most from social services. Only ruling class arrogance would dismiss the need for a proper fence on our southern border. And Mexican criminals know where the money is and where getting caught has far less consequences.
Yeah, they've been great for the economy, especially when they built all the unnecessary houses that now sit in forclosure. Without them, no housing bubble.
If millions of people moving into America with no regulation were good for our economy and quality of life, why are we in the current economic crisis and national malaise ?
I would take note of those who support the outcome of this study posting on ZH..they have
an agenda that is closely aligned with the elites of globalism, who ZH constantly has exposed as corrupt sociopath crooks.
In this economy, even the immigrants are having difficulty. A couple of weeks ago I pulled into the parking lot of a favored Chinese restaurant in an immigrant dense area and my car was mobbed by 20-40 Hispanic day-workers. I slammed on the breaks to avoid collision with several running for my front bumper. I've never before seen these huge crowds and mob behavior at day-worker gathering points. So I would suggest that immigration is good for an economy -NOT- in depression.
I think the US should expel all the Irish and Italian inmigrants. They are lazy catholics, and threat this great WASP nation.
But you should not expel the Bulgarian inmigrants, otherwise you would never have ZeroHedge in your lives.
Anti-immigration is anti-semitism.
Priceless!!!
BTW, we're all immigrants (or offspring thereof) so are we playing 'king of the mountain' or what?
Cry me a river... The same people who complain about low wage Mexicans taking jobs from hard working whites, have no problem walking into a department store or Wal Mart and buying crap made in China, made by people making 75 cents an hour. How about some anger towards that!
Hahah..touche....i agree..thats hypocrisy at its finest. I dont shop at WalMart either. Together we all have to "vote" with our $$$ and feet.
Stop buying chinese made crap, stop hiring these illegals to do work. Starve them out of the work by giving it to others, even if you might have to pay a little bit more for it. The end justifies the means.
Of course, the crux of the problem isn't really low-wage Mexicans taking jobs from.... ---
the problem is that the banks financially promoted the passage of NAFTA, so the banking system there could be privatized, and the banksters could rush in an buy up those privatized banks, thus reclaiming all that lost drug money laundering business when the upped the ante on the bank reporting regulations back in the '80s.
All this is public domain information. David Rockefeller founded the Council of the Americas, originally, just to promote this legislation. Fellow banksters: Citigroup, BankofAmerica, First Boston (now Credit Suisse FB), etc., etc.
So how does someone making $20,000 a year pay more in taxes than they take out of the economy? If they only have 2 ninos, which is too low, the cost of education alone in Cali would be close to $17,000 (2 x $8,500/kid/year). That is before you even firgure the $20,000 for the hospital bill for the maternity stay.
So you have ten 10 construction jobs and 10 carpenters. What happens to wages when you have 10 construction jobs and 20 carpenters... seriously, get your dick outta my ass with these b.s. studies.
You have to be retarded to spout and repeat these worthless claims... a
+1
It is called building a case for a preconceived notion; the social welfare costs along torpedo this study. When we make them citizens they can get WIC, Foods Stamps, Sect 8 Housing, Earned Income Tax Credit, and on and on and on. Bringing in millions of dirt poor, uneducated people is ridiculous!
PS. Giovanni Peri must think we are stupid, I can prove anything by the selective use of facts.
I can feel it, the depression is here.
The local flea market is abandoned. All the squirrels in the trees are gone. There are abandoned cars off the sides of the road all along the road where I live. My cat has disappeared.
But do not despair.
I will pay fifty cents silver per day to any man willing to pull a plow. I will beat the first one that falls. You can buy potatoes for what the market will bear. You can sleep in the ditches around the fields. Anyone caught stealing will be shot.
Women can stay in the compound with me. They will weave my cotton for trade goods, cook and clean. Room and board only. No children.
Lumberjacks seventy five cents silver a day.
Diesel repairman one dollar silver a day.
Hungry yet?
hablas espanol?
No matter how much honest money people can raise to build their county the way they want there are those that can just fire up the fake money presses and print up what ever they want to see to it they get their way.
Maybe this will help make the danger of fiat money clear.
Imagine you and me are setting across from each other. We create enough money to represent all of the world's wealth. Each one of us has one SUPER Dollar in front of him.
You own half of everything and so do I.
I'm the government though. I get bribed into creating a Central Bank.
You're not doing what I want you to be doing so I print up myself eight more SUPER Dollars to manipulate you with.
All of a sudden your SUPER Dollar only represents one tenth of the wealth of the world!
That isn't the only thing though. You need to get busy and get to work because YOU'VE BEEN STIFFED with the bill for the money I PRINTED UP to get YOU TO DO what I WANTED.
That to me represents what has been happening to the economy, and us, and why so many of our occupations just can't keep up with the fake money presses.
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