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From Switzerland With No Love - Wegelin Bank Says Goodbye

Tyler Durden's picture


Swiss private bank Wegelin says goodbye and good riddance to America. An absolute must read.


hat tip Gonzalo Lira


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Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:02 | 56001 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

The is the greatest fear of the Fed and by extension the US Government. The victims of the abuse finally abandon the abuser.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:34 | 56140 . . .
. . .'s picture

Wegelin's letter is trully bizarre.  There was a letter this year by Ray Dalio or Lewitt of HCM much better, saying to be on guard for illegal violations of investors rights.

Wegelin tries to claim the developed world government started a cycle of lawbreaking, when their citizens who willfully refused to report income to the authorities started the cycle.  He sounds like the extreme civil libertarians that came up with the exclusionary evidence rule that if the authorities get evidence through illegal means the evidence is kicked out of court.  Guilty is guilty.  If a crimnal breaks the law, he ought to be punished, and if a cop breaks the law to catch him, punish the cop too.  They can share a cell.

Dalio's or Lewitt's letter was much better, in terms of discussing threats to creditors rights.  Wegelin's is really empty rhetoric saying the road to hell is paved with shutting down tax havens.  As opposed to seeing it as a sherriff being willing to fight in the dirt, if that's where the criminals choose to hide out.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:36 | 56152 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

You missed the point. Its a pragmatic decision. Nothing more , nothing less. Read it all. They did the math. The Swiss are the most pragmatic people in the World.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:12 | 56200 . . .
. . .'s picture

I read it all.  It is an industry shill peice, to defend banks in the business of facilitating illegal activities.  The purported rationale is that this leads to some parade of horribles in which governments have no respect for private property.  It is one of Larry Summers "the world will end" unless you do what I want.  I laugh at it.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:28 | 56312 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

To extend your analogy, Wegelin is merely stating that the sheriff is a hypocrite.

And Wegelin no longer wants to deal with this hypocrite. Pretty simple... hardly an industry shill piece, imo.

Sat, 11/06/2010 - 18:18 | 705646 sohbetme
sohbetme's picture

I agree with you.. greetings by chat

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:34 | 56322 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

All tax grabs are self-defeating. Its stating the obvious and this company has just made a business decision. Swiss banks dont do ethical , moralistic hissy fits.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 15:34 | 56538 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

UBS was operating within the U.S. enabling U.S. citizens to hide from the IRS. So far, they and other banks have gotten off light. Saying its as simple as math is like saying robbery is simple math. Yes, it may pay, but its still illegal.

I can certainly see many banks recognize "the party os over". All I can say is "goodbye, and please don't come back".

Private banking is not an inalienable right.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 19:15 | 56876 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

The fuck it isn't you braying jackass.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:43 | 56163 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Correct me if I were wrong, I thought in a US Court, evidence obtained via illegal means is inadmissible.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:07 | 56189 . . .
. . .'s picture

If the US obtains evidence by breaking US law, then evidence is inadmissible.  It wouldn't necessarily violate any US law for the IRS to demand information on US account holders, get an order by a US court ordering the banks to cough it up, and if the banks refuse, to get a court order seizing the banks US assets as punishment.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:06 | 56192 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture

Please read it again, by..., sans agenda. It's the Swiss version of Fr. Guido Sarducci's "Arrivederci, America!" All Blackwater's drones won't save you now.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:29 | 56228 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Completely off the topic of this letter, but in response to the idea that exclusionary rules of evidence are the product of extreme civil libertarians...

This notion is completely off base. The 4th amendment's exclusionary remedy is the only workable solution to the problem of guaranteeing our protections against unreasonable/warrantless search and seizure. I ask you this: if the end result of illegal activity by police is not the exclusion of evidence (thereby rendering all their work to that point fruitless), then what hedge do we have against this behavior. You planning on throwing half your police force in jail for doing stupid s*** in violation of the 4th/5th amendments? You know, a lot of the guys out there who commit policing blunders of constitutional magnitude aren't f'ing Vic Mackey or Dirty Harry... they're honest men and women who make mistakes, and often act fairly reasonably (though the appeals court may disagree some months later). All I'm saying is that, to crib some logic from the courts, exclusionary remedies are the best option for ensuring essential protections against state police powers.

Just... just thought I'd say that. Have a nice day.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 18:47 | 56847 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Read very carefully, there is no 4th and 5th ammendment.


 "It is an established fact that the United States Federal Government has
been dissolved by the Emergency Banking Act, March 9, 1933, 48 Stat. 1,
Public Law 89-719; declared by President Roosevelt, being bankrupt and
insolvent. H.J.R. 192, 73rd Congress m session June 5, 1933 - Joint
Resolution To Suspend The Gold Standard and Abrogate The Gold Clause
dissolved the Sovereign Authority of the United States and the official
capacities of all United States Governmental Offices, Officers, and
Departments and is further evidence that the United States Federal
Government exists today in name only."

"The receivers of the United States Bankruptcy are the International
Bankers, via the United Nations, the World Bank and the International
Monetary Fund. All United States Offices, Officials, and Departments are now
operating within a de facto status in name only under Emergency War Powers.
With the Constitutional Republican form of Government now dissolved, the
receivers of the Bankruptcy have adopted a new form of government for the
United States. This new form of government is known as a Democracy, being an
established Socialist/Communist order under a new governor for America. This
act was instituted and established by transferring and/or placing the Office
of the Secretary of Treasury to that of the Governor of the International
Monetary Fund. Public Law 94-564."


The Federal Reserve System is a sovereign power structure separate and
distinct from the federal United States government. The Federal Reserve is a
maritime lender, and/or maritime insurance underwriter to the federal United
States operating exclusively under Admiralty/Maritime law. The lender or
underwriter bears the risks, and the Maritime law compelling specific
performance in paying the interest, or premiums are the same.


We the People are the tenants and sharecroppers renting our own property from a Sovereign in the
guise of the Federal Reserve Bank.


Mon, 12/28/2009 - 20:24 | 176371 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

"Wegelin's is really empty rhetoric saying the road to hell is paved with shutting down tax havens."

That wasn't my interpretation. I see it as an assertion that the US lacks moral high ground.

You also clearly don't understand the intent of the exclusionary rule. If illegally obtained evidence can be used in court, why should the authorities ever worry about the law?

Do you perhaps work for the US tax authorities?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:53 | 56364 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Most American commentators here seem to miss the point of Wegelin's decision/client advice:

If you are a non-US citizen, living outside the US, the IRS can compel your bank to make you pay taxes on ALL your assets, be they in America or not, merely because you own SOME assets in the US, such as stocks or Treasuries. This is especially relevant in inheritance taxes.

The Wegelin piece goes on to say that, if the non-US residing, non-US citizen refuses to pay these taxes on non-US assets, then the American IRS can sequester a foreign bank's US assets—even if they are merely acting as custodians—in order to enforce their decision (which is not necessarily made with judicial review).

That would mean, for instance, that if a foreigner, Johann Suisse, living in Zurich with a net worth of ChFr 10 million and a mere $10,000 in US Treasuries with UBS dies, then the IRS can conceivably demand that his heirs pay 45% inheritance tax in the United States on all ChFr 10 million—and if his heirs refuse, then the IRS can seize UBS's assets in the United States, even if UBS is acting as a custodian of those assets and is not in fact their owner.

The Wegelin paper describes these issues in much more detail, explaining quite clearly what the implication of the UBS decision is—not for Americans, but for NON-Americans who are NOT residents in the US.

Therefore, in order to avoid this possibility—which is very real, after the UBS deal—Wegelin very prudently is telling it's non-US citizen, non-US residing clients to get out of all US assets.

Wegelin is smart—other banks will follow. This means that non-US capital will not want to invest in the United States for sound tax reasons—exactly when America needs foreign capital the most.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 17:16 | 56745 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I think it reads that they tax non-resident aliens on US securities ONLY. The first $60K is exempt, but to get the exemption the non-resident alien must reveal all of global holdings.

On the other hand a US person can be taxed on all the global holdings, and the line for being a US person is murky.

So, in your case, unless Johann Suisse is considered a US person, he will either pay tax on the $10K of treasuries, or pay $0 if he reveals all ChFr 10M of his holdings to the IRS.

Sun, 09/06/2009 - 18:30 | 61166 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

To Anonymous #56745: This is the way I understood it also.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 17:19 | 56752 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I think it reads that they tax non-resident aliens on US securities ONLY. The first $60K is exempt, but to get the exemption the non-resident alien must reveal all of global holdings.

On the other hand a US person can be taxed on all the global holdings, and the line for being a US person is murky.

So, in your case, unless Johann Suisse is considered a US person, he will either pay tax on the $10K of treasuries, or pay $0 if he reveals all ChFr 10M of his holdings to the IRS.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 18:10 | 56808 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

That's the point: Why should Johann Suisse have to reveal ALL his assets—which are not in the US—so that the IRS can paw through them?

And furthermore, as the Wegelin comment explains, a non-resident, non-citizen who spends 180 days in the US over a five year period CAN BE taxed as if he were a resident alien.

Wegelin is simply showing that, with the UBS-IRS agreement, it is now not worth it for non-US individuals to own assets in the US.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:16 | 56013 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

If it wasn't for money laundering, Switzerland wouldn't exist.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out....

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:39 | 56043 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The elite will always want a place like Switzerland to hide their ill-gotten gains. You think this tax raid is really taking down anyone big? No chance. Another smokescreen for Main St to feel slightly better about their miserable , soon to be very miserable , existences. Bonus-gate is another.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:46 | 56166 zeropointfield (not verified)
zeropointfield's picture

It seems that Mexico wants some information from the US about the accounts of Mexican tax evaders in US bank accounts. Looks like the US is the favourite place for Mexican drug money.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:26 | 56219 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

white roads lead to the citi

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:57 | 56070 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I suppose the same could be said for modern day United States of America.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:59 | 56074 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture


What ignorant smugitacity.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:14 | 56098 Marley
Marley's picture

Agree.  Next we go after the balance of the offenders, off shore accounts, and pseudo-American corporations.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 18:26 | 56834 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

you mean like Goldman Sachs with their Bermuda (or was it Bahamas?) corp earning the bulk of the profits?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:29 | 56227 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Exactly. Their economy exists essentially by robbing their neighbors of their tax revenues. They are a parasite.

The only amazing thing about Switzerland is that they have been tolerated for so long. Any US citizen maintaining any relationship with a Swiss bank should be rewarded with an IRS flashlight up one's ass indefinitely.

Hiding income is a very, very big deal.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:35 | 56327 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture


When I recieve a multiple choice tax return that allows direct allocation of my taxes to certain services, then I will stop hiding income from the hypocrite/corrupt US Govt. and their goon squad, the IRS.

Folks here defending the USA/IRS out of some sense of patriotism/nationalism are blind. TPTB will soon fleece you, too, and you will wish you were never born in the 'land of the free'.

Wake up.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 17:19 | 56751 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Does tax preparation not take up enough of your time? Would you be willing to prepare, federal, state, and county budgets in addition to your tax return so you can be sure that your $3 to the fire department will be enough for them to function and save your house? Clearly you have the time, experience, and foresight to allocate $0.23 of your glorious tax contribution to levy repairs and maintenance or some such minutiae that keeps the US working. Do you have any idea how inefficient this would be and how poorly funds would be allocated? The idea of multiple choice tax returns is the dumbest thing I have heard in months. Congratulations.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 19:27 | 56888 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

You are a horse's ass.  Please slap your mother across the face the next time you are within slapping proximity to her for bringing such a crasshole into the world.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:17 | 56015 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

They have a history of - - - -money laundering investigations for Russian gangsters and Colombian drug dealers ...... who cares

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:35 | 56039 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

...and don't forget collaborating with Hitler.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:15 | 56099 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Friends, did you get some silver?
Did you get a little gold?
What did you bring me, my dear friends, to keep me from the gallows pole?

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:28 | 56130 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

WRONG; Swiss banks did not directly collaborate with Hitler, but Bank for International Settlements ordered them to accept the money coming from Germany in order to finance the BIS itself. And BIS was a synergy of Schacht's idea and WS money. Swiss banks at the time did not accept direct money from Germany but via BIS. BIS was run, at the time, by Schacht ( till his departure as Reichsbank chairman ) and French, American, British and Italian bankers. Furthermore IG Farben ( US subsidiary ) and SONJ,IBM, GM and FORD mandated that the loans coming for Germanys re-armament are to be held first with the BIS and then distributed to Swiss banks and then channeled to German banks, who would then channeled it to industrial complexes ( so the money could gain interest many times and not just one ). The part of collaboration you speak of is when German officers and individuals deposited gold and paintings into vaults of Swiss banks, but that was an individual act, not a standard mechanism.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:35 | 56147 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Fine, so they weren't the direct bankers for Hitler, just the German officers and Nazi party members. You stay classy, Switzerland.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:50 | 56172 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture


Welcome back. Where have you been? Can you warn us before you take a leave? I know it would help my productivity to know when you were taking off... No need to read the messages if you arent around to ride herd on these guys.

Good comment, btw.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:32 | 56231 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Whatever, you're missing the forest for the trees. The Nazi party came to power via blood, violence and theft. Nazis by the thousands, suddenly wealthy, squirreled away their loot in Swiss banks, and Swiss banks were only too happy to help.

You're ironically playing the "official / unofficial" distinction for a violent group who laughed at the distinction themselves.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:49 | 56300 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

when someone writes the word " whatever " in the beginning of the sentence it is my impression that i am talking to a 17 yo cheerleader; but never mind my assumption i will give you an answer to your question. I do not defend the NSDAP or Germany in this case, what i am saying is that some historical accuracy must be achieved when talking about Swiss banks and NSDAP and Germany. It was not a plan by the Swiss banks to collaborate with Germany in the 30s and 40s. They had no official business and that needs to be known. Second of all; if private individuals commit an illegal act and profit from that act and deposit the illegal profits from that act into a bank; the bank does no officially collaborate with individuals or institutions which/who have committed the act. And another important parameter that should be taken into regard is the historical neutrality of Switzerland and its private and public institutions. And it is one thing when something is official and something is unofficial. The difference is important when it comes to many legal issues; but i will not go into that area with my response. And Germany's officials did not only put their loot into Swiss banks, but also in Argentinian ones, Italian ones and particularly Spanish banks; and also in vast number of banks in south America. Historical accuracy is important and should not be fogged by someone who has prejudices towards someone/something. Facts are neutral; it is individuals who paint them.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 14:25 | 56422 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Any entity, whether a country or a banking system or other, who undermines and thwarts the power of the IRS has got my undying support.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 20:12 | 56936 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

How the f*** would you know? Even if you were alive then, you would only know what was official if you were making Nazi policy.

And furthermore, plenty of 17 year olds make better arguments than you do. So I say, whatever!

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 22:37 | 56968 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

quote: " How the f*** would you know? Even if you were alive then, you would only know what was official if you were making Nazi policy. "

wow !!!! either you have actually nuked the entire epistemology OR you are just plain and simply wrong

don't guess; it the later; and i will not go into epystemological discussion with you

How can i know; well there is this thing called a book; and if that thing ( further mentioned simply as: BOOK ) is any good; it is written based on factual evidence and supported either by observation, experiment or mathematical proof; since we are talking about a historic occurrence here; then it must be that the BOOK is well based on observation collected by reading the documents from that time and with talking to witnesses from that particular time. I DON'T KNOW nothing per se; I GAIN KNOWLEDGE; you should try to do the same.

Oh; and you might want to learn what a priori and a posteriori mean and represent in the general theory of knowledge ( epistemology ) before you draw your toddler argument ( i point to the fact that you have based you critique on the false assumption that i; or any other being; can not know anything that has happened before i was born; and thus that i have no knowledge about the events which took place before i was born ) about what i do know, what i don't know, what i can know, and what i can not know.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 14:34 | 56440 Sqworl
Sqworl's picture

Hi Cheeky...I MISSED YOU..X

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:10 | 56093 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

"...according to reliable sources, the tentacles of the narcotics mafia now reach well into political circles..."

Stings too hard, does it, anonymous?  Or should I call you DENNIS HASTERT!?

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:21 | 56021 AN0NYM0US
AN0NYM0US's picture

Hey ZH - not that I am a blog monitor but it would be nice if you at least acknowledged your alter-ego in this story, she posted same earlier on her own site and referenced it here  a couple of threads ago.



Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:23 | 56023 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

Had no idea it was posted elsewhere. Here is the original link:

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:54 | 56178 Chief Hatuey
Chief Hatuey's picture

ZeroHedge I hope you find this write up worthwhile.

Unequal taxes, unequal accountability for crime, unequal influence, unequal privacy, and unequal access to natural resources and our commons…this sounds like a trailer for ShowTime’s “Tudors”.

What was once ridiculed and ignored months ago is now mainstream news. But what is happening that no one is talking about? What is the most important thing that corporations do not want us to engage with?

Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission is arguably more important than healthcare, more important than the stealing of our 401ks, pensions and the lack of meaningful change promised during our last election. This court case will be the death blow to our Republic by opening the gates for corporations to steal what is left of our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Once opened to further manipulation our world will change forever. “I for one say not on my watch!”

The following links should be reviewed now or after reading my commentary. 

Fast forward to 1 hour: 6 min: 40 seconds. The following 7 minutes of video will give greater details. This is beyond right and left politics.

This article gives a brief historical over view of specific cases past and present regarding Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission.

We went from less than 300 lobbyists before Reagan’s administration to over 35,000 lobbyists currently servicing us and showering our elected representatives with campaign contributions and golden parachutes on Capitol Hill? (See Goldman Sachs or Tom Dashel for recent examples)

Prior to 1886, corporations were referred to in U.S. law as "artificial persons." but in 1886, after a series of cases brought by lawyers representing the expanding railroad interests, the Supreme Court ruled that corporations were "persons" and entitled to the same rights granted to people under the Bill of Rights.

Lawyers representing corporate interests to extend additional rights to businesses have abused the Fourteenth Amendment originally passed after the Civil War to grant all persons including freed slaves (not corporations) equal rights.

To sum it up we have lost the legal structures to keep corporate influence in check.

As a result, instead of kings and queens today we the people must rein in the power of the multinational corporations.  They have the power to influence our lives financially (ask the grandpa working at McDonalds), mentally (all media controlled by less than 10 corps.), physically (healthcare or lack thereof) and emotionally (see all the above) on a daily basis.

The CEOs  and their politicians have taken from a generation past, present and the future. Like a school yard bully they are flaunting this power in our collective faces.

The CEO of UBS for example last week played a round of golf with our president!

Despite contributing $ 250,000.00 dollars to his campaign I cannot help but think that in some way President Obama paid for that round of golf. Regardless of what the founding fathers would have thought “that pisses me off!”

 Our constitutional protection has been methodically stripped away. Since 1886 the courts have either given away or the corporations have taken the power to engage the average citizen in a new kind of slavery. They have shifted not only an unfair share of taxes to the man of the house but his wife as well.  Oh yeah, the kids could be next if we as individuals don’t draw the line regarding Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission.  That ladies and gents is a third world country.

The founding fathers fought to keep power in the hands of the people and prevent institutions similar to the multinational of their time the East India Company from gaining unlimited economic and political power. It has been argued to be the real igniter to the Boston Tea Party.  For many years corporations played in the sandbox responsible to the people and governments that granted them the right to exist.

By the courts legally recognizing corporations as persons we have come full circle to facilitate and reward the types of actions and behaviors of the East India Company that this country originally fought so hard to get away from.

If we do not collectively take action to have our voices heard concerning Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission our Republic will be replaced by a new 'Third Reich' of corporate tyranny.

This court case will determine whether corporations seize complete control of the regulatory process for their own purposes and to our demise as U.S. Citizens.


In conclusion I would like to state that I am not a writer, or blogger. I just realize that if I do not participate or engage I am just as guilty as any in the den of thieves.  All I ask of those who post to please state what they will do right now to have their voice heard regarding Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission.  Any suggestions would be appreciated as to how we can impact a court case. This case will be heard September 9th.  The judges past decisions appear to favor corporations. “If this passes it will blow up all restrictions regarding corporate bribery.”

Thanks TD

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:05 | 56274 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I big step in reducing the influence of corporations is to eliminate all corporate taxes (which consumers eventually pay). Taxes should only be waged on individuals - "entities" that cast a ballot - vote. Then you will have transparency as to what the real tax burden is on citizens and they can vote to change it if they don't like it. Instead of the army of corporate lobbyists swarming on directing tax law.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 19:30 | 56890 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Sure, sounds great.  Let's just shred the rest of the Constitution while we're at it.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 19:42 | 56899 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

For what its worth regarding the Wegelin letter, I think that comment #56364 (above) has got it right.

Other than that, I think this quip says it all:

"Switzerland is a place where they don't like to fight, so they get people to do their fighting for them while they ski and eat chocolate."    - Larry David

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:24 | 56025 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

There's still alot of missing questions on this document. Esentially it's blaming the IRS for trying to "repatriate" itself. This is the snake trying to eat it's tail with a missing head.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:01 | 56078 Ruth
Ruth's picture

No, I think it's the head eating it's tail, question is...if the head gets too big does it explode?  Either way, I think everybody runs.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:29 | 56031 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Waaah f***ing waaah. Go suck on a Swiss army knife.

Query how many American tax-dodgers are hurting for private banking services now that the mighty Wegelin has picked up its toys and gone home.


Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:34 | 56038 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I didn't know that Wegelin hired Ward Churchill to write its press releases. I stopped reading after the pejorative mention of the death penalty. What a whiny bunch of crap.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:29 | 56132 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture


Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:34 | 56144 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Since when did US State Department buffoons start haunting the ZH comments section?

What sad commentary on America, these comments.  Truly sad.

Here you go:

China Moves To Unilaterally Cancel OTC Derivative Loss Debts Held By State

"This is the most important economic event since the fall or shove into bankruptcy of Lehman.

Few understand."

Count yourself outside the "few".  Douche.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:36 | 56040 Mos
Mos's picture

As a country we are broke.  It's no surprise that the IRS is going to go after every American's money outside the US.  It is a surprise that a foreigner can be taxed when inheriting US securities.  I never knew this.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:00 | 56077 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Why? As a country medicare and social security is broke and we owe a few foreign countries what 3 trillion. But that still leaves the head of the snake. Who says we owe them and why? There has to be a fraudulant claim somewhere that affects all the other legitimate claims.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:37 | 56041 What_Me_Worry
What_Me_Worry's picture

An amazing, articulate letter.  Well worth the read.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:41 | 56046 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

good for you Wegelin; now you can go back to laundering money for Colombian narco cartels and African warlords without anyone trying to screw your game. 

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:53 | 56061 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Wecome back CB. Hope you caught up on your sleep.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:57 | 56069 Cheeky Bastard
Cheeky Bastard's picture

thanks Hephasteus; its nice to be back; no; didn't get much sleep; i had  female company for the past several days so; sleep would only spoil it. 

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:01 | 56079 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Oh, so you finally called a maid to clean up all the pizza boxes?  Good for you.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:16 | 56106 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture


Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:30 | 56137 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture


Mon, 12/28/2009 - 20:37 | 176379 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Of course, who else has anything resembling financial privacy?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:49 | 56051 genieous
genieous's picture

Sheist - as the German Swiss would say

Merde - as the French Swiss would say

Toast as the Americans will say

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:52 | 56056 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

According to Swiss law, money laundering is a criminal offense whereas tax evasion is not. Is it illegitimate to apply Swiss law in Switzerland?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:56 | 56066 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Wegelin gains the moral high ground for their decision to abandon American clients by listing American transgressions, such as non-UN sanctioned wars. From my perspective, the UN despises everything about America except her money . . . Hmm, sounds like Swiss banking institutions, doesn't it? Wegelin bankers, please take you moral indignation and stick it where the sun don't shine. How much has been earned by Swiss banks on American customers? I actually do not agree with the whole charade of examining banks under foreign sovereignty, but the Swiss government (and UBS) could have said no. This is a business issue that Wegelin has obfuscated by bringing moral outrage to the table. Don't call us, Wegelin, we'll call you.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 22:07 | 57033 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Wtf, ZH, you can do better then let this asswhole crap all over your site

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:56 | 56067 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The best thing the IRS could do is offer a period say a 1-3 years in which companies can repatriate as much capital as they want to the US with no taxes. (Shockingly the opposite of what they are doing) This would greatly improve capex spending and investment in US industry, but not to worry the stimulus is going to do that.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:38 | 56155 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

It's a two part plan:

First they have to show that they can find you.

Last, they let you come clean with an amnesty period.

Think of it like going to prison... until you beat someone up, everyone is going to hassle you and attempt to take your anal virginity. But, if you get your bluff in the first day by knocking out the first guy you see, it'll be smooth sailing for while and the rest will fall in line.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 10:56 | 56068 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Wegelin gains the moral high ground for their decision to abandon American clients by listing American transgressions, such as non-UN sanctioned wars. From my perspective, the UN despises everything about America except her money . . . Hmm, sounds like Swiss banking institutions, doesn't it? Wegelin bankers, please take you moral indignation and stick it where the sun don't shine. How much has been earned by Swiss banks on American customers? I actually do not agree with the whole charade of examining banks under foreign sovereignty, but the Swiss government (and UBS) could have said no. This is a business issue that Wegelin has obfuscated by bringing moral outrage to the table. Don't call us, Wegelin, we'll call you

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:00 | 56076 slore
slore's picture

so um.. .are they offering to take on some of UBS' affected accounts?  Apparently the torched should be carried right?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:05 | 56085 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Q. I wonder how many accounts of US politicians, intelligence directors and retired bankers will turn up in the names that UBS hands over?

A. None that we'll ever hear of.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:08 | 56089 Gabriel Gray
Gabriel Gray's picture

Would like to know just how many of those 4,450 are registered Republicans.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:36 | 56150 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture


I'd like to know the process they used to cull from 50,000 names down to the current list.

I smell Rahm.


Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:53 | 56177 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

+1... Bravo, Sir.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 16:54 | 56700 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

More to the point, I would like to know how many of those 4,450 people are US citizens, or even US residents.

People, you're missing the point of the piece: Wegelin realizes that the IRS can now tax ANYONE, even if they're not US citizens or even US residents, just because they own US assets.

That's absurd—and Wegelin is calling them on it.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:15 | 56102 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

You would think that the writer of this piece is an avid reader of zerohedge. But realy taxing a foreign person for holding us securities is kinda like discoraging foreigners from investing here,why?any tax expert on taxation with view on the matter(or may be I should dust my accounting degree).

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:53 | 56122 thomasstreet
thomasstreet's picture

"Giant oil discovery for BP in GOM, maybe jackup values will finally go up" Reports are that this is a deep-water find; no help for jack-ups there.

good articles; good articles 4 slow news day ..http://www..
hat tip: finance news & finance opinions

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 15:20 | 56513 Argos
Argos's picture

Yeah, nice term "giant".  It means maybe 250 million barrels

of oil, figure 30% actual recovery, that equals 3.6 DAYS worth

of U.S. consumption.  Scary eh?  Long live peak oil.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:29 | 56134 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

"Would like to know just how many of those 4,450 are registered Republicans."

You mean like Charlie Rangel for instance?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:36 | 56235 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Or Hollywood directors / producers / actors?

Or ambulance chasing trial lawyers?

Or the hedgies (e.g., Paul Tudor Jones) who overwhelmingly supported Obama?

Dude, your stereotypes are SO 1950. The BIG money, like the BIG anti-Semitism, has been on the Left for the last 25 years.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:25 | 56302 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Or half of Pres. Obama's cabinet?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:42 | 56160 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

How about all these trusts and trust funds in the Bahamas and virgin islands?
How about all these brass plates operations in the fiscal paradises?
No one is interested? Not mentioned nowhere

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:55 | 56179 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Those are contributors to the party. Republicrat party.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 11:42 | 56161 Mr. Anonymous
Mr. Anonymous's picture

Cry me a river, Argentina.  And don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:12 | 56201 AnonymousMonetarist
AnonymousMonetarist's picture

Gross inequality results in anti-capital measures following the bust.

Another layer to Wegelin's thinking on taxes goes like this ... you see here in Europe when you run afoul of the tax authorities they freeze all your assets and you are just screwed. A couple fellas in funny hats can just define the rule to mean however much they want you to pay. In doing so they can make 'apple won't fall from the tree' arguments. So when you put crazy stuff into a 'green book' we immediately assume that the results will be to the extreme.


Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:25 | 56218 3greenlights
3greenlights's picture

Don't know about anyone else here, but I never got a job from a poor person. Nor a government.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:53 | 56261 thomasstreet
thomasstreet's picture

Dalio's or Lewitt's letter was much better, in terms of discussing threats to creditors rights.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:06 | 56278 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I wonder how many clowns here even qualify for PB service?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:38 | 56332 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Less than 1%

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:27 | 56308 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I read the paper first - then I read all your comments.

WOW. I missed the scroundrel thinking part of the paper.

I was however, very interested in the potential long term effects of demand (liquidation) of US securities based on the concept of foreingers not wanting to hold US securites (both stocks and bonds) going forward.

If other swiss banks/other foreign custodians follow suit the US Mkt is really toast.

Fuck inheritance taxes. They raise so little IRS revenue vs the effort to avoid them that it makes sense to just eliminate them totally. This would create the best way for US to finance it's trillion $$$ need for capital.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:31 | 56316 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Even though I tend to agree with the moral argument expressed, the paper would be vastly stronger without it. Need an editor, badly.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:34 | 56321 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I tend to agree with the moral argument expressed, but the paper would be vastly stronger if it had been cut. Needs an editor, badly. It's hard to convince someone with all of their attention focused on that chip you've got on your shoulder.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 13:56 | 56367 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

A few watches, and some chocolate. These people throw an inordinate amount of weight around the world. The French, Germans and Italians should have annexed that shitty little country a long time ago. They've gotten extremely wealthy by hiding the money of our criminal class. Fuck em, is all I'm saying.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 14:14 | 56403 rr_
rr_'s picture

Wow, so many lame comments.

What about the contention that the price of this tax enforcement will be paid in higher US Treasury rates?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 14:20 | 56412 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Why has my comment not been approved from hours ago? It was a reply to 'chumbawamba's post about how his link describing the 'most important economic event since the fall or shove into bankruptcy of Lehman.' is wrong and pointless.

While we're on the subject of wrong and pointless, what's with the comment approvals...'do as I say, not as I do', is that your thing?

-1 for you ZH.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 15:11 | 56505 rr_
rr_'s picture


and sign up for an account here.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 14:22 | 56415 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

That was an eye opening article.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 14:24 | 56420 Veteran
Veteran's picture

As an aside, when the feck we going to remove the tax exempt status of churches??  That's a huge cash cow.  Just as fraudulent as big finance, and worth almost as much

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 14:33 | 56439 waterdog
waterdog's picture

If I remember this correctly, some idiots working for UBS decided to lie to customs, or immigration, or whatever government agency it is that wants to know why a person wishes to enter this country legally. Then, a disgruntled employee of UBS turned the whole group in to the government agency.

The government agency extorted depositor names from UBS via outrageous fines. The Swiss evidently thought UBS was too big to fail and, gave in to the US instead of just responding to the US government agency with the phrase- UBS who? and then hanging up the phone.

Is not this the way it all went down? Or have I been lapping too often from the radiator coolant catch-can?

I swear, the older white men get the dumber we get.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 16:15 | 56617 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I believe mexican americans in the US send billions back to their banks in mexico. The IRS is not investigating them. Why? Very selective. The crime apparently US citizens committed? Its not the not paying taxes; its the failure to disclose that you simply own something otside the US. Its not (merely) that there was income unreported. You mustreport any assets to the US KNVD stalin bureau that you have assets beyond the border. They have a right to know everything about you. Just wait til socialized medicine. They will mandate a defecation log and daily sampling.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 17:05 | 56730 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Weglin simply backed the wrong crooks. Some Swiss banks loaded up on Eastern European assets. Others loaded up on third world kleptocracies.

Weglin's business model lies broken. What are they going to do to make a buck... finance technology transfer to the third world?

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 19:09 | 56872 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The Swiss export more per capita than any other nation. Perhaps for Germany. Dont worry about the swiss. This will allow them to focus on financing their domestic industries. Should make for stronger SF and gold.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 19:15 | 56877 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

 Here's a little nugget...


In 1913, Congress sank America into eternal
debt by giving the power to issue currency and control the American economic
system to the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank.  Who are the owners or
chief shareholders of the privately owned Federal Reserve?     Originally,
there were reportedly 203,053 shares of privately owned Federal Reserve
stock, of which approximately 65% were owned by foreigners and approximately
35%(72,000 shares) were:
 1. Rockefellers' National City Bank = 30,000 shares
 2. Chase National = 6,000 shares (currently Chase Manhattan and owned by
David Rockefeller)
 3. The National Bank of Commerce = 21,000 shares (now known as Morgan
Guaranty Trust)
 4. Morgans' First national Bank = 15,000 shares
 Interestingly, the total shares owned by Rockefellers interests equal
36,000 shares and the total of Morgans' equals 36,000 shares.
 Although the privately owned Federal Reserve Act of 1913 provided the names
of the owner banks be kept a secret, R.E. McMaster, publisher of the
newsletter" The Reaper" discovered, through confidential Swiss banking
connections, that the following banks have controlling interest in the
privately owned Federal Reserve
 1. Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin
 2. Lazard Brothers Bank of Paris
 3. Israel Moses Sieff Banks of Italy
 4. Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Germany and Amsterdam
 5. Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York
 6. Lehman Brothers Bank of New York
 7. Goldman Sachs Bank of New York
 8. Chase Manhattan Bank of New York (Controlled By Rockefellers)

 In his impeccably researched book "Secrets of the Privately Owned Federal
Reserve", Eustace Mullins states:  "Because the privately owned Federal
Reserve Bank of New York sets interest rates and controls the daily supply
of price of currency throughout America, the owners of that bank are the
real directors of that whole system.  These shareholders have controlled our
political and economic destinies since 1913."  Those shareholders making up
 Mullins' list are almost identical to the one compiled by the Swiss banking
 1. The Rothschild's
 2. Lazard Freres (Eugene Mayer)
 3. Israel Sieff
 4. Kuhn Loeb Company
 5. Warburg Company
 6. Lehman Brothers
 7. Goldman Sachs
 8. The Rockefeller family and J.P. Morgan interests

 Sounds like a real group of American Patriots, doesn't it!

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 19:49 | 56911 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

When the letter starts out by referring to the UN as "authorizing" wars, then I say to Wegelin go FUCK YOURSELVES and love the child molesters that make up the EU and the UN. Well suited for each other.

fucking hilarious.

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 19:50 | 56912 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Regarding the specific Wegelin Letter and action, I think the comment from Anonymous on Wed, 09/02/2009 - 12:53 #56364 it on target.

For what its worth in a more general sense, Larry David has this take:

"Switzerland is a place where they don't like to fight, so they get people to do their fighting for them while they ski and eat chocolate."    - Larry David

Wed, 09/02/2009 - 20:33 | 56950 Anonymous
Thu, 09/03/2009 - 08:35 | 57240 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture

If it was not for the ill gotten money from thieves, drug lords, and crooks, Switzerland would be like 'what's it Stan", a third world country asking for OUR help.  Oh, and lets not forget the so cozy relationship THEY have with the Vatican.  WHO needs them???  No more chocolates on my pillow, that's for sure.

Thu, 09/03/2009 - 10:11 | 57351 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Looks like you base your view of Switzerland on a handful of Hollywood flicks... Ok, the folks can be unfriendly dicks, but seriously... if you had the full picture, you'd be gagging to become the 27th canton.

Btw... is China a cruel mistress??

Thu, 09/03/2009 - 09:22 | 57270 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

It's good to see the Swiss fessing up to the real reason why people have Swiss bank accounts - tax evasion. None of the BS about "superior client service".

Thu, 09/03/2009 - 09:23 | 57272 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

It's good to see the Swiss fessing up to the real reason why people have Swiss bank accounts - tax evasion. None of the BS about "superior client service".

Thu, 09/03/2009 - 09:48 | 57317 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The US, UK and other developped nations are just as guilty of providing financial centers that launder money/ offer banking secrecy as Switzerland. As previously mentioned, lets look at Bermuda, Caymans, Channel Islands, the CIA and Rothschild bank, etc. Its not the point.

This is a matter of taxation and the extent to which the US is using (abusing?) its powers. The historical roots of this issue traces back to Cook v Tait in 1924 that set precedence on the US being entitled to taxing its citizens regardless of residency or domicile. Even worse is Justice McKenna, who delivered the opinon of the court for the case in 1924, had to resign in 1925 for being unable to be counted on to write coherent opinons. This was a matter of something like $200 at the time. Now, most banks and accountants that deal with americans abroad know this and go to great lengths to accomodate the burden of having a US client legitimately - this includes Switzerland. Of course, you have bankers that solicit tax evasion and the like, but that is happening in Switzerland just as much as in the US.

The US has made it almost impossible to be legitimate for a US expatriate to be legit - example: how many US citizens living in London file their oyster card under the FBAR requirements. None probably, consequence: criminal and/or civil penalties of something like $25,000 to $100,000. The balance of a typical oyster card, maybe £30? So when looking at the scope of 'guilty americans' with assets abroad you need to look at the degree of which they are guilty coupled by how ridiculous US taxation is - it simply does not accomodate for this. The IRS almost views Americans abroad or Americans with accounts abroad unpatriotic.

The problem, really is with the QI status and inheritance tax (specifically US Situs Assets). The revision of QI status in 2010 is going to be haenus for foreign banks where they will have to provide information and provide the controls and compliance to US 'standards'. This is expensive and when (in Switzerland) US accounts are typically 3-10% of banks AUMs, not worth it - case in point: Wegelin.

Are these 'standards' justified? probably not. Is the taxation justified? probably not. Are foreign banks willing to be excluded of 40% of the world's capitalization? tough one.

That said, i am rambling. Hope this is useful.

Thu, 09/03/2009 - 19:14 | 58164 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The question I struggle with is why does America think it can tax a foreigner on gains from a US security?

Do they understand the principle of FDI; or just one side of it?

Are they so arrogant that they think they should be rewarded for "allowing" foreigners to participate in the US assets that actually made money?

And if they are, my fingers are crossed that they have the stones to allow foreigners to claim previous losses realized on US securities - wishful thinking I know, but in my dreams the IRS ends up writing more checks than they deposit.

In my opinion, this is just another example of the US thinking and acting outside its own boarders. It's getting so that America resembles the obese bully who wants everyone's lunch money because he doesn't have the discipline to keep his ever so chubby fingers out of his own cookie jar.

Hide your change now people - America needs some cash and isn't afraid to lift the cushions on "your" sofa!

Fri, 09/04/2009 - 04:07 | 58436 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Why does this clown at Wegelin "go off" on Amerikkka? I assume it's an easy target.

What about Germany, France, UK, and many other EU members trying to pry open their citizen's accounts? Are their societies going to fail as this Wegelin commentator hopes the US will? Or is this just a passive aggressive seething at the mouth at the bad-ol US bullying poor little amoral Switzerland?

Same ___ different _____. The US was supposed to fail at least 1 million times for the past 200 years. 900,000 of those were in the 70s and 80s.

Sun, 09/06/2009 - 10:10 | 60794 pavloter
pavloter's picture

Does it mean we can anticipate a great sell-out in US equities? 

Tue, 09/08/2009 - 00:26 | 62016 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Not to worry there's still enough sense in the US to reverse all this. You think there are realistically any other major markets that can safely hold the world's investment dollars? If you think there are, check the courts in said jurisdictions. True the US has a lot to fix and a lot of savings/taxes/non-consumption to get back on track but we'll figure out a way. We just need the medical establishment to get cheap for awhile and it will fix our 50 trillion dollar unfunded medicare liability problem...

Wed, 09/09/2009 - 07:09 | 63289 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I wonder if this bank just as promptly stopped dealing with Nazi Germany in the 1930's. My guess is that Nazi Germany was good enough for them and US is not good enough for them. That is the behavior of a banker who was kicked out, not an honest pow.

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