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The Fifth Rule Of Zero Hedge Is...
In my capacity as a casual comment viewer on Zero Hedge I have found myself of late issuing an unduly expansive number of warnings for bad behavior in print. One hates to use the heavy hand of moderation on a site dedicated to transparency and throwing sunlight on the cipher-laden world of finance, but I need to make something absolutely clear:
Anyone directly advocating violence against any individual, group of individuals, institution or organization is going to feel the sting of the lash from here on out.
This kind of psychotic noise gives us a bad name (kill the messenger, you know), tends to attract the attention of authorities, particularly in the United States (which is already predisposed to wonder after our subversive criticism of The One and the National Security™ risk we present to Bailout Nation) and more importantly, is antithetical to the goals and purposes of Zero Hedge.
To be even more specific:
Zero Hedge and the legal team here will vigorously oppose thorough all the legal means at our disposal any attempt to obtain, coerce or outright steal data from our offshore servers. This probably won't take much effort since we keep very sparse logs in the first place. However, it is not impossible to imagine that we would entertain a very narrow exception if asked to cooperate with authorities. To wit:
The credible threat of future violence.
There is no moral position we are willing to entertain that would permit us to stand idly by and ignore cases like these.
Let me provide some examples so there will be no misunderstanding:
- "Let's throw [all the bankers/banker x/that loser currently on trial] in jail." [Stupid on a truly Henry VIesque level, even forgetting for the moment that you probably only know as much about any particular case as you have read that afternoon in the New York Post - but borderline - seems to suggest due process (of a sort) at least]
- "Let's kill all the bankers." [Stupid on a truly Henry VIesque level, and also infringing - violence]
- "The next time you meet a Goldman employee, crack a fucking bottle over their skull." [Beyond stupid. Intensely infringing]
- "I'm going to slit [hedge fund manager's throat] when I next see her at L'escale in Greenwich." [So mercifully free of the ravages of intelligence so as to be mistaken for a mineral. Infringing to the level that causes serious and animated debate among the Senior Staff at Zero Hedge over the wisdom of proactively reporting this potential conduct to the authorities]
Hey. How about you do yourself and all of us a favor? Just because it's borderline and we appear to be tolerant, don't just defecate all over the whole of due process jurisprudence (due process IS in the Constitution of the United States, you know. You don't hate the Constitution. Do you, my outraged patriot friend?) as well as immediately brand yourself as a reactionary, populist tool who differs with Barney Frank only in the degree to which you tolerate violence by calling for hanging some random douchebag banker.
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Words never won a war.
If you dont get it youre missing out on a cool level of this blogosphere stuff. (not you Marla being a yard monitor is a thankless job) Theres a little tounge in cheek here folks, it aint the real world,and any govt official monitoring this stuff is really overpaid. OK for this page I think Grace has the right glasses on.
Thanks Marla and ZH for allowing our home thoughts to make it out into the the big world. And you G-men monitoring the yard leave Marla alone and go read up on McCarthy. The real threats arent on Blogs.
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. Gandhi.
I have witnessed enough violence in my life as a member of the armed forces. I may not know much, but what I do know for fact is that violence leads nowhere but suffering and death. Usually for innocent passerby.
The force of ideas is the greatest force known to the human race. Those with ideas know this.
Well stated...
to see where the threats become actions, and the disasters wrought upon societies that follow this downward trajectory, I suggest
"Dangerous Citizens: The Greek Left and the Terror of the State" by Nina
http://dangerouscitizens.columbia.edu/
Excellent ref.
Your my hero Miles...x
And you are one of mine Sqworl. If ya ever feel like you did last weekend please hit the ZH chat and lemmie know. I'll be glad to answer your 911 call however I can lil sister. xo
Hey Miles, Its good to open up and I respect you for that and that revealing post. I do think that you know as I do that when you are addressing a financial blog you realize that in the end money makes the rules and perhaps you were a soldier due to the money rulers. Money or religion creates all violence so by being here and not in the garden growing vegetables we are buying into the Maya in one way or another.
I respect your intelligence. Ideas are and reality is.
Ill say no more brother . Brad
Thanks Brad. To whom much is given much is expected. Leadership is by example and it is personally accountable. Authority can be delegated, but not responsibility. Many in finance and other areas of our society have forgotten that one can either demand respect or command it. Threatening violence clearly demonstrates where that person is coming from with respect to those marks.
I Dont want to be ambiguous where maya is concerned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28illusion%29
Brad
I agree Miles, ideas never die.
"An eye for an eye, and we all go blind" - Ghandi
That is brilliant Miles... nice context added to the message Marla is trying to convey :-)
Awwww....
ZH has been losing it's edge anyway.
Time to move on...
It was good while it lasted.
Goodbye ZH.
Thank you for the content you provided, but you are like any other website.
Please delete my account as I only have the effort to ask you to do so.
Zero Hedge has lost its edge because we will scold you if you deliver credible threats of homicide?
See ya!
If the "edge" you are looking is threatening others with physical (often violent) harm in a credible manner than I for one won't miss you being around.
Frankly people, open your eyes. Credible threats are a serious issue. Should we continue to ignore credible threats such as those on blogs where the guy threatened harm against US forces and then opened fire on innocent Military personnel readying themselves to go risk their life for you, me and every other American (its their job whether you agree with the wars or not)? You can all keep yapping about "edge" but that is a line being crossed far to often.
I think you need the testicular cancer survivors support group, you mistook them fer us.
This is FIGHT club. Wouldn't be a club without someone getting hurt. Sign the consent form and man up, or git out.
And where i come from, anyone who pulls a knife out in a fist fight is a fuckin pussy.
What are you talking about anon... "reading" offers some really good insight in his/her posts... I can see you have a ways to go before you are able to offer even a modicum of that type of insight in any of your posts.
I really think its to much information for humans to take in. The unmasking. It drives many to tears and angst.
All the men we got
Well they're goin' down the drain
All stripped down
All stripped down
And when I see your sadness
On a river of shame
All stripped down
All stripped down
I agree that you do belong on another site other than ZH if that is your position...
Hey - long time reader, first time responder:
The comments on this thread are the precise problem with ZH: The majority (not all) of responders aren't even close to mature enough be worth trusting/respecting at all. That nullifies complaints about corruption, don't it? Thus, even if ZH has a valuable insight, its audience is often just a bunch of reactionary whiners. The constant disrespect for women and minorities, chest thumping macho crap makes the lot of you look like fools. Go ahead and shoot the messenger (a euphemism here, Marla) if it makes you feel better. I grow a big wet rubbery one for blogosphere cowards.
As for the actual coverage, it is interesting enough - even if you are constantly searching for a downside. What is the line between realism and pessimism anyway?
See that what Im talking about, That was a good post. Its like an episode of Cheers ,were all in this together adding to the pot and its a good show here , and were getting along.
Its fun to be here!
I read ZH specifically for info on the downside. There is enough happy happy green shoots garbage in the public
media. I find decision making easier if I can min-max
an event so as to narrow down the probable location of
the truth. Yes, the comments are useful. The presence of
certain people implies importance. The news focused on by the foil beanie people is generally irelevent to my
problems. Please keep up the good work. Risk management
is vital and difficult enough without loosing a primary
resource.
This might really represent the cross-section of opinion. The racist, or misogynistic quips, or lip-service advocation of violence might be how the unwashed really think.
The PC and KumBuyYah crowd just spooked free speech underground where it festers and becomes virulent.
We could all adopt state approved mental screening techniques before ever uttering a word. But then why even enter a discussion?
Let's become tin soldiers all in a row, cowed from creative thought for fear of the "great eye" or giving discomfort to hearers.
False markets, false bond auctions, false currency, false wars. Next step false moral outrage.
Exactly the problem:
"This might really represent the cross-section of opinion. The racist, or misogynistic quips, or lip-service advocation of violence might be how the unwashed really think.
The PC and KumBuyYah crowd just spooked free speech underground where it festers and becomes
virulent."
Most dumbasses don't even understand what free speech is. I'll tell you what it isn't: it's not hate speech. Code words like "PC" are violence embedded in your language. No respect = no fruitful communication.
My point: if you can't analyze the things coming out of your own mouth, you aren't worth talking to.
This anti-intellectual bullshit is as tiresome as the fascism the diarrhea mouths claim to hate.
Bile like the whining "..but I want to advocate violence to traditionally oppressed groups!" makes me cheer on Goldman Sachs..I hope they crush the economy back to the stone age just so I can know people like you are suffering. People like you always have so much to lose, anyway - as soon as there are more opportunities to oppress people (because, wah wah the big dogs monopolized it) this message board ought to grow awful quiet. Time to take a cold hard look at what you are really complaining about, losers. Oh and I enjoy reading this to listen to your stories about losing, too.
Second time poster
Agreed Anon 128393. Whatever happened to "I hate what you said but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?
(Not for the site owners, who have a *legal liability*, but for commenters themselves.)
Has the expression of offensive or wrong thoughts - racism, sexism, prejudice, ignorance, even deceit - become so intolerable to us that we must hide from them?
In that case, who is the weakling and the coward? And who is in fact threatened? More education, not less, is the answer.
What are the first four rules?
The part that seriously bothers me is the assertion that saying "All bankers should be thrown in jail" is considered "borderline". That's just an opinion, to say that is borderline infringing is far too heavy handed and simply wrong.
I suspect the issue is with the word "thrown."
If the statement is "All bankers should be gently placed in jail" then it is OK, as gently placed isn't violent.
Actually, I think it was the implication towards mass detention without trial that strikes us as unproductive.
We are amused when the same people ranting about FEMA camps want to imprison "all the bankers." But only a little amused.
How do you feel about waking up on a beach , and running naked into warm tropical waters to wash off a night of insurrection through a breeze of plumeria blossoms.
Isnt that real also? It wasnt man made, and no guilt that we bruised the wind.
Mass detention with trial is better? I've got an older neighbor of Japanese extraction who didn't think it was all that....
What about "I hope all bankers get anal cancer and die from a lengthy and costly illness."
There's nothing innately violent about that statement, or suggesting an interference with due process.
<Scott> I absolutely hate you Terrance and Philip. I abhor you both.
<T&P> What are you doing Scott?
<Scott> I'm wishing cancer upon you!
<T&P> Cancer?!?!?
<Scott> Thats right, I'm trying to give you cancer with my mind.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150295/?tag=cancer
Or in some cases, long overdue process.
Anon 128128 - The vampire squid should be lightly braised with butter and garlic, before being gently savoured. Be sure to caress with a nasal bouquet, and brush with the lips, before slowly and carefully masticating...
This style definitely works for me. :-)
First they ignore you, blah, blah, blah, then they shoot you.
How do we defend against aggressive domineering individuals that will not rest until all of humanity is in debt bondage to world bankers?
Non-Violent Solutions: Vote in Independent or Constitutional candidates and push for campaign finance reform and financial reform, nothing else matters. This is the most important legislation we could support and a new monetary system is a human rights issue. Physical precious metals, transparency and public control over the volume of money supply as dictated by the US Constitution are essential since we are describing law. Be active politically and try to tap into the silent angry masses that haven't voted in years.
Ron Paul:
This site is the transparency alerting the world to the massive theft taking place, rest assured those entities are used to hiding in the dark and want to sink this site.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article14967.html
Rand Paul and Peter Schiff are both Constitutional candidates running for Senate seats next year. If you're dissatisfied with how your politicians have handled the crisis/treated you, you can:
1. Come on a blog, and "talk tough" because it makes you feel strong - threaten some vague, unspecified, indiscriminate violence to a broad category of people - and get some juvenile "high-fives" - accomplish nothing
2. Accuse those who are actually doing the hard work of educating people about HOW the system works, a critical part of changing it, of "selling their soul" or calling them "lambs of Maine" or "lackeys" or say "words never won a war" (which is ironic) or that they're "care bears" (because YOU are so motherfucking TOUGH) and then threaten to leave, although you never PAID or contributed anything anyway. - accomplish nothing
3. Contribute/volunteer for the candidates above, who will work for reform. - perhaps accomplish something
Thanks to Zerohedge for the excellent writing - it's the best thing going...
+10
Two senate seats available to the general public. Send money.
Yeah, what John said. If a website educates me on economic criminal corruption and government collusion how exactly does that make it a sell out?
An informed and engaged electorate, with the foundation of the rule of law applicable to all with preference to none is what responsible self governance is all about folks. Those that either conflate private with secretive or violence with ideas are in direct opposition to the precepts of our society. The rule of law is the prophylaxis that protects society from the spread of diseased "leadership". Process and precedent have apparently replaced personal accountability and responsibility for all. Transparency must be reintroduced for society to make informed decisions.
Miles- Not sure if you read this yet, it is a must read and follows your logic:
http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2009/11/frederic-bastiat-law.html
"All the measures of the law should protect property and punish plunder."
This was simply the best piece on the purpose of the law I have read, written by an observer of the French Revolution.
This is very clear language and helps us define our ideal system recognizing the inherent weaknesses of human nature, which I think is the starting point for us to build our new society.
In my queue, with appropriate preferential placement due to its source.
Thank you for aiding my quest even if it breaks with my autodidact ethos.
Parasites should be dealt with accordingly.
This is my first comment here.
Not sure how to feel about this. I understand, with the recent subpoenas, but what is going on now is sickening.
I'm a college graduate. I'm unemployed. I work what jobs I can find, and I struggle every day to make ends meet.
When your eating one good meal a day, and spending a few hours each week explaining to various bill collectors that your trying, its really, really fucking hard to feel sorry for those at the top.
So if ZH wants to cover over the anger, by all means feel free. But just like the financial TARP failed to fix the economy, ignoring the anger and the pain people are feeling will not fix their situation, only cover it till it comes back to bite you even harder.
yes at some point the people of a country determine
that it is broke to the point where due process is
moot. at that point they take matters into their
own hands when they recognize that due process is
a means of protecting perpetrators and the slow
wheels of justice have stopped grinding.
covering up anger is kicking problems down the
road and a recipe for even greater eruptions when
the pressures become stronger....
you can pretend that 1 trillion usd of excess
reserves don't count because they are in the closet
but they will fall out....
Thanks for the comment.
Thanks Anon. Yours is the best comment on the entire page. It has all of the essentials without a trace of self-censorship.
Nothing is going to soothe the anger of the public until legalized thievery stops.
"Yours is the best comment on the entire page."
I didn't have these words at the time I commented. Thank you.
+100.
I don't believe ZH is choosing to ignore the anger. They would rather it be expressed in a more tactful and/or humourous manner. There's no need to bring the discourse down to the lowest denominator. I suspect many of us less sophisticated money types visit here to read content that enlightens us because they are shedding light on a corrupt business. They offer a platform for stimulating debate in an entertaining form. Let's honour their wishes. The unvarnished rage can be vented elsewhere.
Thanx Anon,,
we are now sliding down a very slippery slope.
Anyone who thinks that they can work within the established methods to reverse this nightmare is vulnerable to fucking pipe dreams..
But, but Lloyd just said recently "I know I could slit my wrists and people would cheer." http://www.cnbc.com/id/33783316 .
Can we still speak of killing oursleves? Perhapse we should change the name of this blog to the "Care Bear" Blog or something? With the new rule it seems the very concept "zero hedge" could be in violation.
While I would never make such comments this post is more offensive than any such comments. Is this how CNBC got started?
Actually, as you've just proven, you can act like an idiot pretty much all you want.
Well It seems that your post is that proof. Glad to see ZH does support personal insults. Seems you forget who made ZH what it is today. Have fun destroying your community. Between this thread and the bit Lou Dobbs ZH will go as fast as it came. Just ask CNBC how that works.
"Glad to see ZH does support personal insults."
Comparing us to CNBC and asking if "killing yourself" violates policy gets you an "idiot" label every time.
"Seems you forget who made ZH what it is today."
Uh... Tyler Durden and Marla Singer?
I appreciate your thankless job, Marla. As someone put earlier, it is performed with much taste and wit.
Four reasons why I fully support your position:
1) As Tyler put it, this is a place to brainstorm. All ideas and details, no matter how insignificant, may spark productive thought in a fellow reader - maybe even ZH editors!
2) Spouting willful acts of violence is not creative, and cannot inherently add to productive thought about how we can position ourselves financially (even physically!) before the coming storm.
3) Persons spouting willful acts of violence are possibly on .gov payroll.
4) New persons to the site that are more intellectually capable and knowledgeable than myself are likely to be turned off by offensive comments.
This is an excellent site for storm watch and preparation!
Big trouble is brewing - no need to hasten it on a personal level.
I appreciate your thankless job, Marla
What???? Are you saying that Marla is wanting for accolades on ZH?..please.. The admiration society for her is getting a little syrupy.. She must get some renumeration for her efforts here..no?
Excellent!
Saul Alinsky once said, it is idiotic for the Black Panthers to say all power grows out of the barrel of a gun when the other side has all the guns.
Well, Goldman doesn't have private armies. At least not yet.
The violence discussion has been spinning round the hard left for decades. Welcome to it.
My take: If enough people are on your side, the you win. The USSR, The Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia, and South Africa all had non-violent revolutions.
A friend who volunteered with a peace organization in Sri Lanka, sometimes in life--threatening circumstances, says violence generally just means the other side(s) react even more violently. Which is what the warlords on all sides want. They don't really want peace. Something to think about.
I like this take. The violence of the 'other side' must be acknowledged, and stategised for - but let us never mistake who in fact has the big guns in this conflict. And who is using them. We are not the 'big boys' on this playground; no matter who's 'morally right' best not to forget it. If we don't have guns, we must resort to minds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlY-JlE5ZCo
I agree with Marla and the 5th Rule. The value of this site is the education it provides - an education that opens eyes so that more folks can see the wrongdoing. And talk about possible ways to right the wrongdoing through "acceptable" channels is also helpful and educational and rightly has a place here.
However - sometimes attempting to right wrongdoing through "appropriate" channels does not work. Sometimes violence is the only solution (see the U.S. Revolution). I think it is useful to remember here that the American Patriots did not discuss their battle plans in front of the British. In the same way, and for the same reason, those who wish to discuss battle plans for our current situation should be doing that elsewhere, not here or on any other internet site where the "British" can overhear.
Finally, I think serious-minded Americans should review the material at this link - particularly at the Section entitled "Preconditions to The Right of Revolution"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_revolution
I wonder which branch of our current government is willing to defend the right of a U.S. citizen to post the following words on the internet. I wonder which branch of our current government is willing to defend the rights of U.S. citizens to discuss the following words on the internet and discuss ways of implementing the following words (abridged version). I have never before had cause for such wonderment. But I do now.
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. ... We hold these truths to be self-evident ... That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it. ... it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
However - sometimes attempting to right wrongdoing through "appropriate" channels does not work. Sometimes violence is the only solution (see the U.S. Revolution). I think it is useful to remember here that the American Patriots did not discuss their battle plans in front of the British. In the same way, and for the same reason, those who wish to discuss battle plans for our current situation should be doing that elsewhere, not here or on any other internet site where the "British" can overhear.
A big fat plus one.
A revolution without dancing is not a revolution worth having. : emma GOLDMAN
Long time listener, first time caller...
What makes ZH good, IMO, is some startlingly fresh analysis of the financial world. I haven't read the comments on this site or plan to in the future.
As a consumer of the posts by the bloggers and not the watchers I have a suggestion: read more, speak less.
Don't make it easy for other media to dismiss ZH as a barrel of monkeys. I don't agree with some stuff posted here or on GW's blog, or Mish, or BoomBust, or Jesse's Cafe.
The virtue in all of the above is that it isn't the "Buy,Buy,Buy" shtick.
There is a lot of pain out there, but talk your existential arguments to your girl, friends, pet, or self.
it wasn't me....
I'll try to behave not because I think it is the right thing to do, conceptually. The anger is, IMHO understated. Folks need to be angrier, and need a place to express it.
I will do it because this is your house and you have asked me to.
so how'd that privet thing come out?
Why do you even have to ask?
Zero Hedge.
Oh snap!
Well said Ms. Singer.
Hey Reductio ad Absurdum, you revealed a sad absence of culture when you wrote:
"Perhaps Shakespeare would be banned from ZH:
“The first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers.”"
If you read the play, you would have realized that quoted line was said by a member of the Jack Cade Gang. Jack Cade was a pretender to the throne of King Henry VI and a plotter of treachery.
"The first thing we must do is kill all the lawyers," - was stated as the surest way to chaos and tyranny was to remove the guardians of independent thinking.
Contrary to popular belief, the proposal was not designed to restore sanity to commercial life. Rather, it was intended to eliminate those who might stand in the way of a contemplated revolution -- thus underscoring the important role that lawyers can play in society.
In no way, shape or form am I advocating violence, but pardon me if I find some of the comments here naive, especially those who cherry pick examples of peaceful resistance which have more to do with circumstances than style. For example, Gandhi was damn lucky he was dealing with Brits, and dealing with Brits who were recovering from a horrible war. England had neither the energy nor financial wherewithal to fight for something they could no longer afford and barely wanted. If Gandhi had lived earlier and tried his approach in, say, 1870, he would have been eliminated and history would not have recorded his name.
Elsewhere, tell me how peaceful protest worked in Tiananmen in 1989? Or Burma in 1988? Burma even tried the ballot box in 1990, and though the opposition won 88% of the vote in a heavily rigged (against them) election, the results were ignored and the winning Party’s leader has been under house arrest for 15 of the last 19 years.
More recently, there are two instances where peaceful and unarmed Buddhist monks took to the streets in quiet protest. In both cases they were gunned down and beaten until they gave up (Burma, 2007; Tibet, 2008). Incidentally, the moral high ground as practiced by the United States inflicts sanctions on one of those countries, but has POTUS attend the Olympics in the other. When the paymaster says dance, you dance.
And how has that Dalai Lama been doing since---what, 1959?---to get his message accepted?
+1
A benefactor of Gandhi once commented, and I paraphrase, "You have no idea how much money it takes to keep a man in poverty."
No one is suggesting that the powers that be may not act out with "official" violence to numerous forms of protest. They've already done that in this country, and others. We're not that stupid. But, as they say, "in the course of human events" sometimes something weird happens, mankind realizes that he's damned if he does damned if he doesn't.
Then, whether or not it is mere survival instinct or some higher principle, they put their ass on the line. For themselves, their friends, and their children. The Brit. example brings up a good point as well. Part of it does depend on the financial wherewithal of the opponent. The last time I checked, the hometeam has had better days and the collective force of an organized economic movement remains to be seen.
I don't think you are suggesting that we give up and give in. And you told us you're not advocating violence. Good. What are you suggesting?
To say that violence is never necessary, is naive. To act like it can be postponed indefinitely, merely ensures one's own emprisonment.
If that were true, then all Americans should become Quakers, never go to war, and stand against any sort of defensive (or offensive) military. Extreme positions are odious and extreme peace is the refuge of the ignorant.
Ignoring the dark side of life makes one vulnerable. One must work out how to deal with it.
Ignoring the dark side of life makes one vulnerable. One must work out how to deal with it.
Stand
exactly: Collective force is more powerful than violent force
I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, September 23, 1800
There is no more powerful weapon or vote for the world you desire than the dollar that you have in your pocket. Who you give it to, when and how and by the same token, who you don't. You are here and transfer your energy. If you bring only your need, please get in line.
bankstas that took over our country by financial coup d'etat, raped the taxpayers, front-run trades, and stole our future <=== me loves. kiss. kiss.
I get your point and agree with what you're saying. Of the four examples given, I agree that 2, 3 and 4 are inappropriate but the first one - i.e. "throwing them xxxx in jail" - I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It is not condoning any violence and this ain't a court of law. After all, we all DO already live in the prison known as the United States.
Merely say: After ensuring, due process, place them in a maximum security prison..should work.
Or throw in the old chestnut "may".
Anyway, you all knew this was coming. Kinda hard to make money and attract advertisers with all this crazy nonsense.
And the bottom line is that its not about lofty ideals, but good old fashioned money.
(Nor do I have a problem with that)
Nice to see my tax dollars and work pursuing Marla and Tyler over an angry 9 year old at mom's computer who wants bankers to go to jail. Rididulous.
Agreed. The authorities do not, and will not ever come knocking on any website's doors (or subpoena ips or whatever) for saying things like those said in the first example. Maybe there is something more to this.
Perhaps you could employ walstreetpro2 to advocate on behalf of the member-base?
Yeah, fire Joe the Plumber and bring in this guy. Give him a show with contestants. Let wsp2 make up the rules.
Good morning!
I can understand your being annoyed, Ms. Singer, but your reaction seems a little extreme. For example:
1. "I'm going to slit [hedge fund manager's throat] when I next see her at L'escale in Greenwich." [.... Infringing to the level that causes serious and animated debate among the Senior Staff at Zero Hedge over the wisdom of proactively reporting this potential conduct to the authorities]
I have taught law in a jurisdiction both geographically and spiritually far from the United States, but it's hard for me to believe that the laws there ignore the difference between language which at least sounds like it might be meant to be literally true, and language which is obviously metaphorical. I once saw a comment on the Internet which repeatedly referred to Alan Greenspan by an indecent name for a certain sex organ. Would you have the poster convicted of libel because Mr. Greenspan was not literally that sex organ? Or would you have someone convicted of false advertising when he advertises 'the best camelizing widgets', when someone else's camelizing widgets are obviously better?
2. "don't ... immediately brand yourself as a reactionary, populist tool who differs with Barney Frank only in the degree to which you tolerate violence by calling for hanging some random douchebag banker."
What a strange use of the word "douchebag"! There are probably a few women in the world in various places who use douche bags for good medical reasons, and I assume that the douche bags mostly work properly and save many people needless suffering, perhaps danger. Why is "douchebag" suddenly a general-purpose insult, even when it seems to have no relation to the matter at hand?
Thanks.
C.
Because 'douchebag' is safe, humorous, and not legally liable. The OECD sense of humour revolves around sexual organs, probably b/c OECD culture (among others) is tremendously conflicted about sex. Humour is the language of the oppressed, the weak, the intellectual...and the persuasive.
Anything that actually has an *effect* on the other hand, must be scrutinised and the cost counted prior to publication.
I expect Marla is a much more peaceful person than some of us. And that may be the reason she has the position she does...and we don't.
If I say, "Whack his Pee-Pee!", is that considered a violent threat or an invitation to a bris?
Every time I have used a word like "bris" on a public board, it later turned out that it sent hundreds of people rushing to Google to find out what it means.
Are you short GOOG? Could you prove it to the SEC?
By the way, there are organizations in Denmark which are trying to make the circumcision of male babies illegal. Their position on your question is clear.
Is ZH narrow-mindedly committed to US culture, or should the opinions of the Danes also be taken into consideration?
Thanks for all you do ZH and Marla.
I am Chumbawamba.
* There shall be no mention of violence in the most violent society on earth.
* Violence is only allowed by the state, even a mention of it by the masses will be stigmatized as terrorism and punished.
* "The Internets" will be permitted as long as they serve as a distraction from real actions.
You can't kill an idea.
Comments about violence against, say, Lord Blankfiend, Joe
Cassano, Dick Fuld, Angelo, Alan, Rubin, Bernanke, any member orf the Rothschilds,et al should not be permitted UNLESS one commits the act.
Empty threats are less useless and make the writer appear a ya-hoo rather than a committed revolutionary.
I would welcome the comment IF Lord Blankfiend and is tursty band of thieves actually disappeared from the face of the earth, however.
I have not read any of the comments yet (I will), and I agree that such kill, hang etc. comments offer nothing except some personal value venting by individuals. On the other hand, I feel the frustration too - but I keep it to myself. Anyway, if there are such comments below the article, I will not send it to certain individuals. If there was a way to send an article link without the comments, that would be super.
Next time you see a Goldman employee, give him a fucking hug!
I love it!!
Next time you see a squid employee (squidlet?), give them a big wet *sloppy* smack on the lips, and if you have sex with them, be sure to scrub hard with Javex when you're done.
you know, it is said that in some african societies (back when women were running shit), they would punish thieves by stripping them naked and caging them up in the public square for a moon cycle. everytime a villager would walk by the cage, they would have to say to the prisoner 'i love you'.
i sometimes wonder if that's why mayor mikey pushed so hard to get that restaurant put in at union square, to discourage the proles from trying something really radical with that space...like a new york version of the above with drag queens as guards in case the golden boys get out of hand.
Good read, From EFF's Secret Files: Anatomy of a Bogus Subpoena
http://www.eff.org/wp/anatomy-bogus-subpoena-indymedia
http://www.eff.org/wp/anatomy-bogus-subpoena-indymedia#6
thanks. interesting.
It's all about log files from backbone routers. Service providers collects them from the beginning of times. Now govt. have a legal procedure to access these logs, or just cisco's netflow output.
The fifth rule of ZeroHedge should be : ZERO TOLERANCE for any nonsense
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Thank you for addressing this, I love how people act over the internet. They seem to carry bigger acorns. In real life most of them are sniveling fools. I was beginning to get a little turned off with all the abusive rhetoric. Also, I’m concerned about quality control, especially on the DARPA project. I read a few of the entries and there didn't seem much on fundamentals. Mostly people were talking about their feelings. Maybe I misunderstood the purpose. Let me know if I'm wrong...
SAY_JET, you stole my fucking avatar. I'M GOING TO KICK YOUR FUCKING ASS!!!
I'm not attached, sweet cakes.
No, change it back, really. It's an awesome avatar, and I needed to change mine anyways. I just couldn't help myself from the irony of contributing a blatantly silly-blog-rage post on a thread about non-violence. Glad to see someone else has a great sense of humor, too!
ZH and Marla,
I rarely comment... but have come to value ZH sufficiently, and appreciate that the threat envelope facing it is seriously enough to warrant your attention to such "housekeeping matters".
Whether we like it we are in a war and good information is a weapon, if not the deciding weapon. Handing the enemy a tool to degrade the effectiveness of ZH is unacceptable and if by denying the enemy that weapon results in the loss of a few posters...well war is hell.
and as to the comment on Tienanmen Square nothing could be further than the truth. The reverberation through Chinese society continues to this day.
Keep shining the light on those cockroaches....
Marla may be able to block offensive comments but she can't stop the people from feeling and expressing those offensive ideas. So we may not see them on this web page but they are not going away.
A question to ask, "Is this anger we are seeing just a random thing and that only a small percentage of the poplulation feels?"
No. This anger is very real. A significant percentage of the population feels it.
Limiting comments solves nothing. The people who are this angry will express it in other ways. This is not going to go away anytime soon.
This site is about economics, markets and politics. The anger factor is part of that equation. It will impact the economics and markets we observe. It is just a matter of when, not if.
+100 BK !!
For more insight on the over-the-top anger meter, visit the Washington Post comment Boards. Thousands of comments every day directed at the electeds as if each rant is actually being read by Obama, Pelosi, etc. Partisan attacks are bitter and ferocious and mostly stupid. Many commenters are borderline/outright psychos........very unlike the comparatively civilized contributors to ZH ( snicker, cough ) .
This site is a commercial business in the first place. They just defend their investments.
So what ?? I plant my ass on this site because the info contained herein has prevented me from making more than a few bad investment decisions that would have cost me dearly. I hope TD and Marla make a mint !!
No site carves through the immense mountain of financial bullshit better than this one.
++
There is nothing dear fellow citizen that precludes the commercial from having something worthwhile to say. As long as the basis is clearly enunciated. Where has ZH failed in that respect?
Come on ZH- due process, REALLY?? ZH has been a financial CSI unit probing the most grizzly rape of the average and not so average investor, working stiff, whomever. ZH has detailed the myriad ways in which the conspiracy was planned, executed, and perpetrated using, I might add, the laws and courts of sovereign countries and now the "Fight Clubbers" want us to follow due process in addressing our grievances? What happened? Sadly, their Street Cred must be reset to just plain ZERO.
Gotta admit the seeming hypocracy on that "Due Process" point made me cringe and wonder if Marla was being bent over the keyboard as she typed it. Not only does it make no sense legally--not taking the time to genuflect to the passe notion of due process is surely not yet a crime when referring to our scumlord politicians and banksters--but it pretty much makes it impossible to assert anything about their wrongdoing without resorting to the empty language of diplomats.
Fortunately, ZH will not be adapting itself to this apparent typo of a "rule", since both its soul and its reason for existence would shrink to a zero point level . . . but still, how about revisiting this inane statement just to reassert your reasonableness, at least for consistency's sake?
As for the exhortations of violence, obviously a problem. Regardless of how they make me feel, my only thought has been how incredibly stupid such posters are to publish those statements on the internet. No suppoenas are necessary for the fascists to track you down, folks. Actually, this whole notion strikes me as just an attempt to intimidate the public into watching their backs and zipping their lips, a public dog and pony show to chill severe discontent.
It is obvious that ZH cannot passively allow itself to be used as a stage for either nuts or genuine would-be revolutinaries preaching violence. Government problems, public relations/business problems, etc.
Please correct the pablum about "due process", though, Marla. Having stated your new "Policy", you'll be legally liable for not enforcing it, yes?
Make it the Zero Rule of Zero Hedge, for symmetry.
Frankly, the problem are the institutions, not individuals. Check and balances have been lost, all efforts should be directed to reestablish institutional checks and balances,
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=az7AcisnxsCA
Gandhi, King, Walesa, etc.
'nuff said.
Thank you
I'm glad you are taking steps to clean up the comments section. However, one aspsect of example #1 seems questionable: "Let's throw that guy currently on trial in jail."
I would use a real-life example to make my point. When Martha Stewart was on trial, was there really anything objectionable about a person saying, "Let's throw Martha Stewart in jail"?
That is far different from saying we should randomly round up all bankers and put them in jail.
Marla,
One of the reasons why I stopped comments on my blog was that I didn't have the time or inclination to moderate stupid comments. Any jackass can post nonsense comments anonymously, so I stopped accepting them altogether (much to my chagrin since there are many good ones too). It just wasn't worth the aggravation. ZH is lucky to have someone like you who has the patience to moderate these fools. As for violence, the large majority of these blowhards are harmless wimps, but there is always some nut job who can snap and really go after bankers and hedge fund managers. I have zero tolerance for senseless violence and ignorant fools.
Leo,
What if you believed that the banking industry, which has so much control of all of our destinies, was totally and absolutely corrupt at the top? And what if you believed that our representatives were creating legislation that further helped these individuals hide and continue their crimes against the public? And what if you believed that none of the regulators were doing their jobs? And that law enforcement was too coopted and politicized to do their job?
In sum, you believe the bankers are doing as they please, the government is helping them, and the regulators are turning a blind eye to it or helping them as well. Cops are impotent.
What would you do in that situation?
Does violence come up on the menu of options when you think this over? I ask this because I do not think you need to be a "nut job" to be considering violence, if you were to believe all the things above were true.
I do not believe we have "tried everything else" yet. But folks who have reached this point of frustration are not necessarily "nut jobs" as you characterize them.
What Zerohedge is asserting is that they do not want to be the public space for this kind of discourse. They have goals that do not include violence as an option. That is a wonderful thing, if they can organically, from the grassroots, come up with a sustainable, credible, ratings system/institution that is not dependent on the current, corrupt, network of gov./corporations. I support it, but I have my doubts.
I am coming to believe that my government and all aspects of the current system of distributing goods and services is run by a bunch of corrupt thugs that have been unchecked for generations. Thugs don't respond well to pleas for rationality, compassion, or mercy. It is nice to say we will just ignore them and create our own system, but thugs frequently become enraged by such efforts and employ various kinds of legitimated violences themselves.
I would ask you to be a little less judgemental of so called nut jobs.
A ban on throwing-to-prison comments... Devil's advocate in action?
Then someone could claim we discuss here 'violent' evidence that would put them in jail...
Political correctness, what a loss of time and energy.
There is a point in keeping our heads cool though.
Good policy--good post
Anger at how our society is being destroyed is understandable, fantasizing violence against the perps is therapeutic, repeating these fantasies here is putting ZH at risk.
I am sure the wounded (and families of the slain) at Ft Hood wish that someone had had the courage to follow up on the threatening online remarks of Maj Hasan.
Let's share info, not bravado here!
eat the rich!
they are toxic.
Webbie warning will be respected....
If ZH feels compelled to "what I sense is a light touch" of censorship in order to keep official attention at bay, ZH has all my blessings. There may, however be some falloff in attendance, well then, we are all free to chose after all aren't we? Will this chill the diversity of thought and expression? I think not, but we must be ever vigilant not to take the moral high ground too seriously so as to inflate the line between what is accepted thought and what is not...
Christopher Hitchens views on Free Speech. I think he puts it right
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6379618149058958603#
Brilliant
Dearest Marla:
I come to this site because an honest effort is made to drag to truth out into the light of day. If this philosophy catches on and becomes wide spread. The secrecy that provides the cover for the acts perpetrated by the select few upon the masses will evaporate. TPTB are deathly afraid of this. They will use the words of a low self esteemed ego starved individual to destroy this perceived and very real threat.
It is very tempting to voice opposition in the strongest form posable and in this case empty threats of violence are just the tools TPTB will use to shut us up!
If in the past I have crossed this line, I for the greater good stand corrected.
Thank's for the WAKE UP!!!
Marla,
Well said. The last thing we need is for the corrupt system that we all talk about have ammunition against us for being radical, insensitive or just plain stupid. Zero Hedge is a service I can't find in most places. It just makes us better if we stay a cut above what we call Govt. leadership. We can all express ourselves in an intelligent way and still get our points across. I think that would give Zero Hedge more credibility than advocating an overthow of the system.
Well done Lady,
Bravo ZH! There's a very fine line between being passionate and being an emotional fool. Too many posters don't know the line exists, let alone what side of it they're on. Didn't used to be that way. You might have to come up with a new site, keep it a secret for awhile and wait for the mobs to find it in order to escape it. Either that or go all Denninger and ban the entire freaking world by IP address. Karl's a bright guy in so many ways, and a complete child in others.
Cheers. Sounds like a good approach.
To weigh in on this issue I am going to break my policy of not posting comments on ZH. Fortunately/unfortunately Marla can simply and easily enforce her policies despite all of the speculation about IP spoofing, dynamically allocated IP addresses, etc. She can simply turn off Anonymous postings. My concern is that some of the most insightful postings on ZH are from Anonymous posters. I am glad Marla is deciding this issue and not me.
"To weigh in on this issue I am going to break my policy of not posting comments on ZH."
How do you break a policy you never enforced? You have posted comments on 18 articles since to registered.
heh
Bit of whatever it is attempts to recover, weakly.
to the moderator --- didn't realize I was not logged in ealier and commented as anonymous.
eat the rich!
Peoples who didn't fight back had the pleasure of beeing led by great leaders; Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc, etc. So just look at the bright side and keep your fuc@ing mouth shut.
PS. In regard with peaceful demonstrations my grandfather (I am a poor Moldavian boy) told me that Stalin didn't quite enjoy them. Go figure!
leave it to the eastern europeans to tell us what it is really all about, as they and then alone really know for sure.
to get a grip on it all
listen to the hungarian george show on republic broadcasting network on sundays from 2 to 4 pm
this old man from hungary tells it like it is and he sees what is happening here and tells us the future as only a hungarian can.....
It is evident that the whole thrust of ZeroHedge, and that is what makes it unique, is that it exposes the real state of affairs of the depression and the criminal behavior on Wall Street that has brought it about.
Max Keiser goes one step further, he calls these Bankster people Financial Terrorists, Enemy Combattants and gangsters. Such people, have indeed looted the lives of millions while amassing fortunes for themselves. Hard to believe that these people are still free and not in jail.
Just like the Torturers, and war criminals, those responsible for 911; the bankers who declared war on the peoples of the world deserve to be punished. No harm in calling for that.
Remember: War criminal Tony Blair even has ambitions to become the first President of EU. But people in Europe have shouted him down as a war criminal. It is time to speak out and call those Bankers what they are: Criminals and Enemies of the People!
Hope this means Deadhead can't call Turbo Timmy a liar. I would sure miss that.
Seriously, good call Marla and ZH, the comments on some threads were starting to look like the political message boards inhabited by the loons on both sides.
Thank you for all you do, keep up the good work.
Marla,
My full support for the new ZH position. It is not ZH's responsiblity to supply a virtual meeting place for people wanting to engage in mutual mental masturbation over the Totally Hot Jeffersonian/Lockean theory of the legitimacy of armed revolt. This fantasy crap is in the barking dog vs. beware the dog that doesn't bark vein. It's Walter Mitty's Second Amendment {http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/snyder8.html}.
While I believe most if not all such comments are pure fantasy cathartic release, it would be far more productive if the financial geniuses that peruse this site offered up more discussion of what we can do, non-violently, and through social cooperation, to bring down this entirely corrupt financial system that is reducing us to permanent debt slavery. Do we withdraw all of our money from the banks? Do we withdraw all our money from our IRAs and 401ks and buy gold and silver? Seems like a massive vote of no-confidence to me far more powerful than organizing for the next political election, but would it be sufficient to bring the system down? Do we organize for a coordinated mass refusal to pay credit card and mortgage debt? Is there a way short of this scorched earth policy to finally wrest political control from the oligarchs? Instead of venting and escapist fantasy, how about some serious analysis, planning and organizing?
Jeff S
Ask for decorum and you'll get it. Mostly.
Actions are prosecuted.
Inconvenience is the most powerful tool in our society. Can you not just ignore stupidity and immaturity especially when it is so easy to just not read it? And I'm not writing to you our graciouis hostess Marla.
Sticks and stones and all that... vs. Make your argument better not louder.
I may not agree with what you have said, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Sometimes no other word in the human language does as good a job conveying my sentiments as the word "FUCK!"
My point is it is a difficult line to walk.
People, self-police and grow thicker skin. You should be disappointed that she had to ask. But then again, you should not be surprised.
-Ignatius Reilly Wannabe
Quite alot of comments for a civility request.
The framers of the constitution did their best to prevent corruption. Ultimately, we the people are responsible for allowing the current, rampant corruption. We can resolve the problem by organizing a critical mass to peacefully demand change and accountability.
I find this stance extremely interesting in light of Zero Hedge's theme - Fight Club.
And to further educate the ignorant masses, a portion of Fight Club's plot development -
As the fight club's membership grows (and, unbeknownst to the narrator, spreads to other cities across the country), Tyler begins to use it to spread anti-consumerist ideas and recruits its members to participate in increasingly elaborate pranks on corporate America. This was originally the narrator's idea, but Tyler takes control from him. Tyler eventually gathers the most devoted fight club members (referred to as "space monkeys") and forms "Project Mayhem," a cult-like organization that trains itself as an army to bring down modern civilization. This organization, like fight club, is controlled by a set of rules:
This whole post Marla is a bit like Tyler starting Project Mayhem and then asking the space monkeys to stand when he realizes he might get a little blow back for his anarcho-primitivist behavior.
I'll just end with a bit more from the book Fight Club -
What did you expect Marla, gentlemen?
too much is never enough when it comes to making a point, especially when the chimps(Tyler's term) are banal.
I am SO buying that book.
It only gets better...
Reminds me of the word "fuck" in the Punks? section of the Boomer Bible. It was banned because the leader wanted people to learn other ways to express themselves. So they started reading and found out there were other words they could use. Words that would better express what they felt and thought other than "fuck". It's the same with violent threats. The main thrust of this site is to educate you in what is going on in this world. Now, sit back and think about educating youself on how to express yourself more clearly. Maybe direct your energy to call your congressional representatives, go to MSM sites, newspapers and educate their readers by respectfully posting facts. That is what they fear the most.
Woah... maybe I'll start reading regularly again, or even, *gasp*, read some comments. I would be curious to know if the 30% of readers from banks etc have been commenting lately or if that demographic avoids the comments section entirely. If you are serious about the content of this post and the quality of the site, I think that stat may be worth watching.
Are these the echos from the days of '39?