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The Flash Trading Org Chart
Zero Hedge will attempt to categorize all the relevant players in FlashTradingGate. This is the initial focus of Senator Charles Schumer's recent campaign for market equality and transparency. As we will undoubtedly miss critical connections between these and other pertinent industry players, we solicit readers' insight as we develop this org chart: we invite readers to send emails to: flashtrading@zerohedge.com with any input.
For a sense of services provided by Direct Edge, Here is the Direct Edge fee schedule.
And here is the July 2007 commentary by Goldman Sachs and Citadel when the two firms purchased a 19.9% stake each in Direct Edge.
"Direct Edge has quickly become a major market center for U.S. equities
by virtue of its innovative market model and competitive pricing
schedule" said Greg Tusar, Managing Director, Goldman Sachs."Goldman Sachs is a fantastic addition to the Direct Edge partnership,"
said Mathew Andresen, Co-Head of Citadel Derivatives Group. "Volumes
have grown significantly in recent weeks and we expect that trend to
continue as Direct Edge becomes a more important liquidity destination
for the marketplace."
For some other, more recent and relevant perspectives by Goldman's Greg Tusar, who has been abnormally vocal about another aspect of HFT, pre-trade monitoring, read here.
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What's the deal with the add/remove liquidity rebates. When I look at the rebates published on the IB and Lightspeed price charts, they show exchange charge when you add liquidity and a rebate when you remove liquidity. The direct edge price seems to charge for removing liquidity and a rebate for adding liquidity. What am I missing?
this (DirectEdge) is standard. pay to take liquidity, get paid (rebate) to provide liquidity
Any thoughts on working with/like WikiLeaks?
I'm sure they are great folks.
That said, we have no idea who they really are or where their funding comes from. We'd rather be masters/mistresses of our own destiny.
We don't actually need them either. We've got our own infrastructure in place.
:)
You can do whatever you want. Enough.
But saying that wikileaks has no transparecy applies to you also.
I don't think Marla meant that as criticism; just factually. I agree with her. I don't know who they are either, nor where their funds come from. They take donations (who doesn't) but that doesn't tell much. For my part, I didn't mean for ZH to hitch their mules to WikiLeak's wagon. I'm just thinking about a constellation of truthiness.
Hey there nicholsong,
WikiLeaks will be suborned eventually - jsut as Google has been. Once they develop enough penetrtion to be worth bribing, they will get bought.
There's nothing wrong with that - and as they become more and more kosher, the market will provide alternatives.
(Wikileaks is really only for proto-whistleblowers... real ones use freenet: much much much smaller audience, but the entire audience is highly motivated. Plus, you can shop there for any assassination-fulfilment needs you might have [kidding!])
In unrelated news, I decided to weigh in on the whole HFT debate...it is like diligently trying to remove a stray tea-leaf from a cup of tea, when the teapot has a gigantic turd in it.
Cheerio
GT
GT's Market Rant
As a New York State resident, I'd like to thank Senator Schumer for taking up this matter. I would urge the Senator to contact Mr. Durden for any assistance and background information that will be helpful.
Thank you.
hey, deadhead, this is off topic - I just wanted to make sure you know that YOU were not the intended recipient of my rhetoric critique in the other thread! :)
The recipient of who's rhetoric critique, Anonymous? :)
I appreciate you saying that. My regrets as well for misreading the thread responses.
Best of luck to you.
ring-a-ling..
Immelt: hello
Rahm: this doesn't get out there, CNBC runs infomercials next week
Immelt: infomercials?
Rahm: Fuck you. And tell Blankfein to pick up his fucking phone before I have to send ACORN to his house
Immelt: ok
Rahm: Fuck you
They are all one big company posing as individual companies.
{Insert image of head blowing off shoulders here}
Are you attempting to create an ownership chart or Direct Edge? If so, why link in NYSE? Why point out that Duncan N. is former GS? NYSE and Direct Edge are competitors, full stop. Stick to the flash order topic, leave the GS conspiracy novel out this.
Vaan Praaaaaag is that you ?
I appreciate your consistent stylistic advice. The post focuses on any and all relevant Flash trading relationships, of which the SLP falls under.
Consistent? Are you tracking IP's over there in Liechtenstein. Or Chicago?
I am a different anonymous user from the original critiquer. I don't understand how that is a relevant relationship, considering NYSE is trying to get rid of flash trading.
As an aside. You cannot simply connect the Goldman Sachs dots and assume a relationship. Goldman hires the absolute creme de la creme who go into finance. Why is it surprising that there are Goldman alum all over the place?
Now who does the sleeper Sergei really work for ?
How will Citadel's bankruptcy fit into all of this, will GS just buy it out?
Never count Ken Griffen out. Looks like they are expanding their HFT skills by taking a majority stake in Equiduct.
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2009/07/24/63651/high-frequency-trading-in-europe/
Citadel is not in bankruptcy. They are weaseling into the European markets now in the electronic trading arena.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aayJKbKSm3ZY
Well that was redundant...lizzy posted while I was yelling out the window!
Thanks for the links Lizzy and Howard.
.
Hmm Blackrock ... another 800lb gorilla being backed by the US Government..
'em good old boys network, neat charts. I guess everyone wants their own Cylone.
A Robot should never bring any harm to a human. P.S. I wonder, what if those boys created the pandora box instead of the skynet. Then they should be aware that whoever runs first, loses the least.
Durden, you should be bronzed.
http://thebronzesculptures.com/bronzesculptures/images/lgbrz06sport2143.jpg
if i was a baby boomer who had my pension funds in this kind of crap, I would look at something like this and wonder just what in the hell I am doing....
Personally, I am looking at transferring all my investments to a country where corruption is less organized at the top. Any other country fits that profile. Sure, corruption exists in other countries but not to the extent of organization and institutionalized here. I now know why Jim Rogers left this country and is now in Singapore.
Why don't you leave the country too, you traitor? We don't need this type of citizen.
Yup that's the plan.
2x
"MARK IT ZERO, DUDE"
It will be a beautiful sight to watch the implosion from afar. Demolitions are beautiful.
Uh, he's no traitor, and YES we need that type of citizen--or at least that type of freedom. If you don't have the liberty to move your funds where you want, you are slave to governmental mandates anyway. The greatest vote of all is the vote with your feet, and if you disallow that, every sort of abuse and predation is possible.
Patriotism is for suckers or should I say taxpayers. When the system is hell bent on removing you from your hard earned wealth it no longer makes sense being part of that ecosystem. Pride and Patriotism never assured anyone a comfortable retirement. Only suckers and gullible folks get carried away by that fervor waving the flag, while their trousers are on fire.
common, here anony. He isn't a traitor, he is just afraid for his family because of the corruption that has become pervasive here in the US.
Anyone how leaves fine. but the rest of us are left with the task of saving our country from this corruption. Yes, officially, we live in a banana republic. But, we can vote out the current corrupted bought elected officials and insist on a new way of governance, and that is a great thing we can look forward to...
Please follow your hero.
Singapore is totally corrupt.
I think the US is ranked below Italy now on the CPI, in '04 ranking 53/104 surveyed. We need to start prosecuting and cleaning house.
http://clearstation.etrade.com/cgi-bin/bbs?post...
Wondering how the robots handle a scenario where they suddenly burst out of the channel and start going off in a different direction?
Primary examples would be the XLF, RKH, and KRE. They have been "pinned" in a small trading range for months.
Which way will they break?
And if so, how will the robots trade these once they break off in a different direction?
http://clearstation.etrade.com/cgi-bin/bbs?post...
Sorry, awful chart.
Assume I'm totaly ignorant and sell me your argument with a crisp cogent graph that CNBC can post and display while its kissing TDs wonderful ass for exposing this shocking scandal.
go here, and look up HFT, program trading, market liquidity event, flash, and goldman sachs.
Thanks, extremely useful.
"Awful" wasn't meant as a critism. I meant to suggest you dumb down the graphics for an ignorant audience . I get the graph but only because I've been following the story.
You've graphed it well enough for an informed audience. I don't think it would take much tweaking to make it comprehisible to CNBCs audience that GS through its ownership interests has its squiddy tentacles in all these markets.
Your audience for this graph should be Gasbag's audience. If they get it , the more informed will surely get it, and they'll appreciate a handy baseline graphic.
You're doing great work. Thanks
As for graphics, ZH might draw on the artwork of the late Mark Lombardi, who attempted to diagram such conspiracies as BCCI using hand-drawn "narrative structures," but update his index-card backend with wiki-like functionality and a dynamic visualization a la Visual Thesaurus. All this would be less something to give to CNBC and more of a collaborative tool to map the Flash Trading tentacles in real-time.
Renaissance are the HFT kings - see
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=agxVXC.r9Edw
for evidence of what they have been up to for years.
rentec is following the flash debate closely. very very closely... and we (and a few others) are following their reponses even closer.
Makes sense that they follow it so closely given all the profit they must make from it in equity trading. Or do not.
http://dealbreaker.com/2009/05/dear-renaissance-investor.php
Money follows freedom and the rule of law. That's why all the money with half a brain has gone offshore. Fuck the USA, Who needs it?
B.S. Apparently you ether have never lived overseas (living is different from visiting) or you have never lived in a free country in general. So ether get your facts straight or F yourself for a practice purpose, cause once you live somewhere else, you'll be doing it on regular bases.
That was remarkably incoherent. It seems, though, that you are unaccountably proud of your shitty little Constitution, which is honored solely in the breach and anyway pathetically inferior to what many dirt-poor third-world wastelands have. They have the ICCPR and ICESCR, executed as law. You have... "Freedom." That means, evidently, that you bend over for predation by a commercial oligarchy and suck the dick of every passing cop to show respect. So stick your preening assumption of worldly sophistication up your ass. You have not been around, in the scheme of things. It shows.
Well, looking up the world corruption statistics based on survey of businesses could be a good starting point to solve this argument. It might be true that there are number of EU countries that would score higher than the USA. However you ve got to remember the size, homogeneity and the degree of conformism do skew the data. Even without those adjustments we still are ahead of curve. I am not saying we should be idle, however we shouldn't jump to conclusions or lose the respect to constitution. We should fight for our rights, because rights and freedoms are well worth sweating over. Running and wishing problems away does not solve anything anywhere in the world. And we are blessed because we have opportunities to defend our rights, in many other parts of the world this is not the case, period.
And YEAH, if you ask an average CHinese in China if they have corruption the answer will be obvious, what corruption.
A sensible statement. It's true we are manifestly mediocre and slipping in terms of ethical integrity, violence and human development. And rights are nice, but the awkward fact is that you are not allowed to exercise those shiny rights. Your constitutional rights have been set aside and your rights under UDHR are simply not acknowledged. The US is competing for our capital and doing a piss-poor job of it. There are other more civilized countries.
"slipping in terms of...human development." ?
Is there some pre-determined path we're all supposed to be on that we've deviated from? Are we to evolve into some Arthur C. Clarke-esque ethereal form of intelligence?
Perhaps you could let us know how the average citizen is 'mediocre and slipping'.
What are you top 3, 5, or 10 'more civilized countries' than the US?
Seems like we could all be enlightened by your advanced understanding of the world in which we ingrates live in...
Folks, HFT andflash orders are only going to affect ticker-watchers (I am one of them, so it's not a pejorative), and only 'breakout' style traders at that.
It's focusing on the wrong thing, in my view... as I said elsewhere, it's like diligently trying to remove a stray tea-leaf from a cup of tea, when there is a gigantic turd in the teapot.
Tyler's doing excellent stuff on the GS/corruption front, and this HFT stuff is great for profile-building... but it's not the 'big ticket' ripoff that it's being painted as.
Cheers
GT
GT's Market Rant
GT you really don't have any idea how the Flash Trading game works do you? Some of these orders last as little as 30 milliseconds. That is such a short period of time you probably wouldn't even register seeing the order, let alone ahving time to hit F8 or whatever hot key you have.
There is much more to the picture than you see here. Dark pools, discounts from exchanges to those who provide liquidity, NBBO on better exchanges etc. While I still do not have the entire picture, I know enough to tell that you are way off base in your analysis. With all due respect of course.
so, TD, did you and Cheney catch some fish today?
Deadhead, what is that supposed to mean? I am totally not with your insinuation.
arg....it goes to the matter of the trolls that are beginning to infest some of the commentary. on some thread recently someone was hinting that they knew where the offshore servers are; i viewed that as some troll threatening zh (certainly i could be wrong). anyways, my not so funny response related to the old cheney undisclosed location thingee....naturally, that would have to be wyoming and cheney's penchant for fly fishing. actually, it is pretty much me being dumb and not terribly hunorous. nothing more than that.
Not sure if you noticed that the comment traffic has picked up a bit. Sometimes you have something wothwhile to add, sometimes not, as in this thread. For now you're a distraction. Thanks for the icon, though. Its hard to miss and easy to pass over, although I'd rather not if you had something worthwhile to add. Jast sayin
Nobody likes you.
Geoffrey T - thanks for the links but no dice.
Do your PR work somewhere else; this isn't the place.
Thanks.
[Edited by GT 12:31 p.m. Oz time: reason - it needed toning down. I need t ostop drinking before noon]
Hey there Lothar,
I could have linked to several other places that had stories that took the non-'Chicken Little' side of HFT, but none of them had the two examples I wanted.
If you think that's 'PR', then we differ on what the term means (Ihave no stake in freenet, for example, except as a participant).
The Stalinesque habit of arrogating to oneself the right to determine who may and may not post such-and-so a type of content, invites a polite "Not Your Call" unless
On (2): whatever amount you've donated (assuming its > 0), if I haven't already, I'll match it and add a dollar just to buy the rights.
Let the bidding commence.
If you think a post is 'Junk' you an flag it and the team will dispose o it if it's found to be so.
Cheerio
GT
GT's Market Rant
Hey G, I do appreciate your posts, but this certainly looks like a ripoff to me. I'm curious what you think...
"Let's say that there is a buyer willing to buy 100,000 shares of BRCM with a limit price of $26.40. That is, the buyer will accept any price up to $26.40.
But the market at this particular moment in time is at $26.10, or thirty cents lower.
So the computers, having detected via their "flash orders" (which ought to be illegal) that there is a desire for Broadcom shares, start to issue tiny (typically 100 share lots) "immediate or cancel" orders - IOCs - to sell at $26.20. If that order is "eaten" the computer then issues an order at $26.25, then $26.30, then $26.35, then $26.40. When it tries $26.45 it gets no bite and the order is immediately canceled.
Now the flush of supply comes at, big coincidence, $26.39, and the claim is made that the market has become "more efficient."
Nonsense; there was no "real seller" at any of these prices! This pattern of offering was intended to do one and only one thing - manipulate the market by discovering what is supposed to be a hidden piece of information - the other side's limit price!"
http://market-ticker.org/archives/1259-High-Frequency-Trading-Is-A-Scam....
The "other side's limit price" is not always a secret, hence the term "post." As in, posted an order, possibly away from the NBBO, at a price which is your limit.
Is it only "low frequency" traders that get to use iceberg or other hidden order types and tricks? What about non-displayed midpoint orders, isn't the side that posted out loud being ripped off in those cases? Let's start a massive blogging campaign to get rid of those pesky non displayed midpoint and mid-point pegged orders!
The analysis and suggested solution would be so much easier if the HFT haters/ ranters could first tell us who they want to win, then we can twist or untwist the rules appropriately.
I think the rules should be whatever is most fair to people with their retirement money in 401ks, etc. That does not include me. Myself, hedgefunds, and HFT outfits are speculators or arbs, we have a necessary function but we're paid for our risks, not for fucking over Mom and Dad.
stop talkin out of your asses - this is totally the type of comment jackin that bores people away from good discourse. If you respect the intelligence of the audience, you need not deal with a stray heckle - they understand how to ignore the noise
fucking vain drama queens
True, true...
Geoffrey, sir, it is not junk to link out to other sites to reinforce your arguments.
That is the essence of this place, I have gathered.
Linking to your own site at the end of every comment you make (and I've seen you do it on others, not just this one) is, simply, bad form.
My opinion of course, but I've seen it done enough in other places and had it called out also.
My donations, miniscule as they have all been, to ZH have been on nights where Marla has been spinning, and I have been clear that I believe others listening on nights she spins should donate the equivalent of what it would cost them to get into a club and hear a DJ spin live.
That it happens what I've donated is more than I've paid for any subscription to other finance sites or publications is merely a bonus for all the value provided here. I say that sincerely, in case you wonder.
That's all, and no more. Fair enough to link your site in your profile name, but it's not a good thing to spray it at the end of every comment.
Lothar, it may bother you but really, I have no problem with it. I donated too...
Peace everybody.
Hi again Lothar,
Odd that you think that a link constitutes 'spraying'.
It is perfectly normal - and not a breach of any netiquette that I have ever encountered - to put a bloglink in a 'sig' (leave aside that something as 'correct line' as netiquette is downright funny on a quasi-anarchist site).
I thought you were objecting to something else entirely. Never, anywhere on the web (since 1994 - before Netscape was even called Netscape), have I ever seen anybody object to such a thing.
Sadly there seemed to be no facility for including a link in one's ZH profile - otherwise I would certainly have done so in preference to sticky-taping it to the bottom of comments. When ZH on blogspot had Disqus, I think that the bloglink was part of the userID (as it is with IntenseDebate, and other OpenID style gizmos), but to my knowledge it can't be done here.
If it could be done, it's not clear how displaying it as part of the userID is different from having a link at the bottom of the sig.
All that said, I am glad that you've contributed to ZH: from top to bottom it is a laudable enterprise, even if it's over-egged the pudding on the who HFT thing.
ZH has certainly jumped the shark now, so I am prepared to bet that GE will pay someone to find out the IDs of TD and his crew within two weeks: thereafter ZH will probably need contributions to help fend off spurious legal bullshit... and there will be a flurry of defamatory crap in the comment sections too.
I've lived that shit; it's not fun. Folks will believe the most outlandish shit imaginable, and the bad guys have employees who do that shit for a living.
The 'sir' stuff is unnecessary - in my experience people who use it are usually being insincere.
Cheerio
GT
Yes, I'm Nasty To Zionists... Too Bad
Hmm, funny how Knight Capital, called out in deepcapture.com as being involved with "naked" short selling, really posing as market makers with out of the money calls etc, to enable to sell shares no one has, is involved with HTF. Cross correlate with the ownership of DTCC. Could someone besides me check out dtcc.com and their annual report. There is some kind of message there with the Picasso's, full page pictures of staff in their decorated offices contrasted with the photos of the IT guys in their white shirt sleeves.
This is what I've learned so far:
Goldman is buying the market up. The sign that that they are about to reverse their bet was already given when they 'forecast' that the S&P will go above 1,000. If Goldman says you must buy they are actually looking for someone to offload to. Don't play into their hands!!!
This market is beggining to sound like it belongs to the world of WATCHMEN.
Is GS the big blue guy with the limp member?
ZH Team, the links in this excellent post may help with your chart.
http://forums.wallstreetexaminer.com/index.php?showtopic=828562
You guys know nothing, Oscar Carboni explained it to me. HFT is just like he traded in the pit.
www.fadethetrade.com