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The Flash Trading Org Chart

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Sat, 07/25/2009 - 17:59 | 15197 akreitman
akreitman's picture

    What's the deal with the add/remove liquidity rebates.  When I look at the rebates published on the IB and Lightspeed price charts, they show exchange charge when you add liquidity and a rebate when you remove liquidity.  The direct edge price seems to charge for removing liquidity and a rebate for adding liquidity.  What am I missing?

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 20:47 | 15261 KidDynamite
KidDynamite's picture

this (DirectEdge) is standard. pay to take liquidity, get paid (rebate) to provide liquidity

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:05 | 15198 nicholsong
nicholsong's picture

Any thoughts on working with/like WikiLeaks?

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:22 | 15203 Marla Singer
Marla Singer's picture

I'm sure they are great folks.

That said, we have no idea who they really are or where their funding comes from.  We'd rather be masters/mistresses of our own destiny.

We don't actually need them either.  We've got our own infrastructure in place.


Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:40 | 15215 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

You can do whatever you want. Enough.

But saying that wikileaks has no transparecy applies to you also.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:13 | 15225 nicholsong
nicholsong's picture

I don't think Marla meant that as criticism; just factually.  I agree with her. I don't know who they are either, nor where their funds come from. They take donations (who doesn't) but that doesn't tell much.  For my part, I didn't mean for ZH to hitch their mules to WikiLeak's wagon. I'm just thinking about a constellation of truthiness.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 21:11 | 15273 GeoffreyT
GeoffreyT's picture

Hey there nicholsong,


WikiLeaks will be suborned eventually - jsut as Google has been. Once they develop enough penetrtion to be worth bribing, they will get bought.


There's nothing wrong with that - and as they become more and more kosher, the market will provide alternatives.


(Wikileaks is really only for proto-whistleblowers... real ones use freenet: much much much smaller audience, but the entire audience is highly motivated. Plus, you can shop there for any assassination-fulfilment needs you might have [kidding!])


In unrelated news, I decided to weigh in on the whole HFT debate...it is like diligently trying to remove a stray tea-leaf from a cup of tea, when the teapot has a gigantic turd in it.





GT's Market Rant

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:05 | 15199 deadhead
deadhead's picture

As a New York State resident, I'd like to thank Senator Schumer for taking up this matter.  I would urge the Senator to contact Mr. Durden for any assistance and background information that will be helpful.


Thank you.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:38 | 15213 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

hey, deadhead, this is off topic - I just wanted to make sure you know that YOU were not the intended recipient of my rhetoric critique in the other thread! :)

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:14 | 15226 nicholsong
nicholsong's picture

The recipient of who's rhetoric critique, Anonymous?  :)

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:26 | 15228 deadhead
deadhead's picture

I appreciate you saying that. My regrets as well for misreading the thread responses.


Best of luck to you.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:07 | 15200 JohnKing
JohnKing's picture


Immelt: hello

Rahm: this doesn't get out there, CNBC runs infomercials next week

Immelt: infomercials?

Rahm: Fuck you. And tell Blankfein to pick up his fucking phone before I have to send ACORN to his house

Immelt: ok

Rahm: Fuck you





Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:30 | 15207 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

They are all one big company posing as individual companies.

{Insert image of head blowing off shoulders here}

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:36 | 15209 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Are you attempting to create an ownership chart or Direct Edge? If so, why link in NYSE? Why point out that Duncan N. is former GS? NYSE and Direct Edge are competitors, full stop. Stick to the flash order topic, leave the GS conspiracy novel out this.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:38 | 15212 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Vaan Praaaaaag is that you ?

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:39 | 15214 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

I appreciate your consistent stylistic advice. The post focuses on any and all relevant Flash trading relationships, of which the SLP falls under.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 20:46 | 15260 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Consistent? Are you tracking IP's over there in Liechtenstein. Or Chicago?

Mon, 08/10/2009 - 15:12 | 31837 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I am a different anonymous user from the original critiquer. I don't understand how that is a relevant relationship, considering NYSE is trying to get rid of flash trading.

As an aside. You cannot simply connect the Goldman Sachs dots and assume a relationship. Goldman hires the absolute creme de la creme who go into finance. Why is it surprising that there are Goldman alum all over the place?

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:37 | 15210 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Now who does the sleeper Sergei really work for ?

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:37 | 15211 joann
joann's picture

How will Citadel's bankruptcy fit into all of this, will GS just buy it out?

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:42 | 15238 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Never count Ken Griffen out.  Looks like they are expanding their HFT skills by taking a majority stake in Equiduct. 


Sat, 07/25/2009 - 20:01 | 15248 Howard_Beale
Howard_Beale's picture

Citadel is not in bankruptcy. They are weaseling into the European markets now in the electronic trading arena.


Well that was redundant...lizzy posted while I was yelling out the window!

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 23:26 | 15325 joann
joann's picture

Thanks for the links Lizzy and Howard.

Mon, 07/27/2009 - 16:48 | 16149 joann
joann's picture


Sat, 07/25/2009 - 18:43 | 15216 whacked
whacked's picture

Hmm Blackrock ... another 800lb gorilla being backed by the US Government..

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:18 | 15223 Comrade de Chaos
Comrade de Chaos's picture

'em good old boys network, neat charts. I guess everyone wants their own Cylone.

A Robot should never bring any harm to a human. P.S. I wonder, what if those boys created the pandora box instead of the skynet. Then they should be aware that whoever runs first, loses the least.






Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:40 | 15237 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

if i was a baby boomer who had my pension funds in this kind of crap, I would look at something like this and wonder just what in the hell I am doing....

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:44 | 15239 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Personally, I am looking at transferring all my investments to a country where corruption is less organized at the top. Any other country fits that profile. Sure, corruption exists in other countries but not to the extent of organization and institutionalized here. I now know why Jim Rogers left this country and is now in Singapore.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:47 | 15240 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Why don't you leave the country too, you traitor? We don't need this type of citizen.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:50 | 15242 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Yup that's the plan.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:51 | 15243 spekulatn
spekulatn's picture




Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:53 | 15246 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

It will be a beautiful sight to watch the implosion from afar. Demolitions are beautiful.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 19:52 | 15245 nicholsong
nicholsong's picture

Uh, he's no traitor, and YES we need that type of citizen--or at least that type of freedom. If you don't have the liberty to move your funds where you want, you are slave to governmental mandates anyway.  The greatest vote of all is the vote with your feet, and if you disallow that, every sort of abuse and predation is possible.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 20:14 | 15254 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Patriotism is for suckers or should I say taxpayers. When the system is hell bent on removing you from your hard earned wealth it no longer makes sense being part of that ecosystem. Pride and Patriotism never assured anyone a comfortable retirement. Only suckers and gullible folks get carried away by that fervor waving the flag, while their trousers are on fire.

Sun, 07/26/2009 - 02:08 | 15396 agrotera
agrotera's picture

common, here anony.  He isn't a traitor, he is just afraid for his family because of the corruption that has become pervasive here in the US. 

Anyone how leaves fine. but the rest of us are left with the task of saving our country from this corruption.  Yes, officially, we live in a banana republic.  But, we can vote out the current corrupted bought elected officials and insist on a new way of governance, and that is a great thing we can look forward to...

Sun, 07/26/2009 - 00:08 | 15339 Ben_the_Bald
Ben_the_Bald's picture

Please follow your hero.


Singapore is totally corrupt.

Sun, 07/26/2009 - 21:12 | 15667 Ruth
Ruth's picture

I think the US is ranked below Italy now on the CPI, in '04 ranking 53/104 surveyed.  We need to start prosecuting and cleaning house.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 20:05 | 15249 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture
I guess we are going to have to watch the most heavily traded lotto tickets trade on a 1-minute chart for entertainment purposes, to see how well the "Channelingstocks.com" Program Robots buy and sell these issues thousands of times a day.


Wondering how the robots handle a scenario where they suddenly burst out of the channel and start going off in a different direction?

Primary examples would be the XLF, RKH, and KRE. They have been "pinned" in a small trading range for months.

Which way will they break?

And if so, how will the robots trade these once they break off in a different direction?


Sat, 07/25/2009 - 20:09 | 15251 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Sorry, awful chart.
Assume I'm totaly ignorant and sell me your argument with a crisp cogent graph that CNBC can post and display while its kissing TDs wonderful ass for exposing this shocking scandal.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 20:12 | 15253 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

go here, and look up HFT, program trading, market liquidity event, flash, and goldman sachs.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 21:51 | 15296 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Thanks, extremely useful.

"Awful" wasn't meant as a critism. I meant to suggest you dumb down the graphics for an ignorant audience . I get the graph but only because I've been following the story.

You've graphed it well enough for an informed audience. I don't think it would take much tweaking to make it comprehisible to CNBCs audience that GS through its ownership interests has its squiddy tentacles in all these markets.

Your audience for this graph should be Gasbag's audience. If they get it , the more informed will surely get it, and they'll appreciate a handy baseline graphic.

You're doing great work. Thanks

Sun, 07/26/2009 - 08:24 | 15441 labster
labster's picture

As for graphics, ZH might draw on the artwork of the late Mark Lombardi, who attempted to diagram such conspiracies as BCCI using hand-drawn "narrative structures," but update his index-card backend with wiki-like functionality and a dynamic visualization a la Visual Thesaurus. All this would be less something to give to CNBC and more of a collaborative tool to map the Flash Trading tentacles in real-time.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 21:05 | 15269 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Renaissance are the HFT kings - see
for evidence of what they have been up to for years.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 23:55 | 15336 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

rentec is following the flash debate closely. very very closely... and we (and a few others) are following their reponses even closer.

Sun, 07/26/2009 - 00:44 | 15349 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Makes sense that they follow it so closely given all the profit they must make from it in equity trading. Or do not.


Sat, 07/25/2009 - 21:10 | 15271 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Money follows freedom and the rule of law. That's why all the money with half a brain has gone offshore. Fuck the USA, Who needs it?

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 21:38 | 15286 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

B.S. Apparently you ether have never lived overseas (living is different from visiting) or you have never lived in a free country in general. So ether get your facts straight or F yourself for a practice purpose, cause once you live somewhere else, you'll be doing it on regular bases.

Sat, 07/25/2009 - 22:28 | 15309 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

That was remarkably incoherent. It seems, though, that you are unaccountably proud of your shitty little Constitution, which is honored solely in the breach and anyway pathetically inferior to what many dirt-poor third-world wastelands have. They have the ICCPR and ICESCR, executed as law. You have... "Freedom." That means, evidently, that you bend over for predation by a commercial oligarchy and suck the dick of every passing cop to show respect. So stick your preening assumption of worldly sophistication up your ass. You have not been around, in the scheme of things. It shows.

Sun, 07/26/2009 - 01:50 | 15388 Comrade de Chaos
Comrade de Chaos's picture

Well, looking up the world corruption statistics based on survey of businesses could be a good starting point to solve this argument. It might be true that there are number of EU countries that would score higher than the USA.  However you ve got to remember the size, homogeneity and the degree of conformism do skew the data. Even without those adjustments we still are ahead of curve. I am not saying we should be idle, however we shouldn't jump to conclusions or lose the respect to constitution. We should fight for our rights, because rights and freedoms are well worth sweating over. Running and wishing problems away does not solve anything anywhere in the world. And we are blessed because we have opportunities to defend our rights, in many other parts of the world this is not the case, period. 

And YEAH, if you ask an average CHinese in China if they have corruption the answer will be obvious, what corruption. 

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