Following Radioactive Rain, Radiation In Tokyo Jumps 10 Fold, Hitachinaka Iodine 131 Surges To 85,000 Becquerels

Tyler Durden's picture

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tmosley's picture

Nuclear energy is the most heavily regulated industry on the face of the Earth.  What kind of retard thinks the free market has ANYTHING to do with what has happened in Japan, or anywhere else?

A free market would have replaced every last one of those super-expensive light water reactors with pebble bed or breeder reactors decades ago, and we would probably be several generations beyond that by now.

ZakuKommander's picture

Oh, yes, if left to its own, unfettered devices, one can be sure that the free market would have ensured that nuclear power would have reduced the world's dependence on fossil fuels to just about nil.

Misean's picture

Yes, because governments do gods' work. I mean, look, they've probably created 500 new species around Fukushima already.

10kby2k's picture

It seems that most of the radiation will end up in the ocean. Now that they have a mortar pumping machine rigged up with a non stop supply of sea water flooding the reactor around the clock  ..... how many million gallons of water will come in direct contact with the spent pool? 

How much contamination will this sea water gather if it constantly flows and the core stays relatively cool? I need help with that question.

TheMerryPrankster's picture

There is a  very big unknowable variable in that equation. No one knows how much radioactive material the seawater is in contact with. Unless they test the seawater that drains back into the sea for radiation, there is simply no way to know how much radioactive material is in the sea water.

 

Any dissolved gases will evaporate, but any solids in solution will be breathed,swallowed and shat out by the creatures of the sea from plankton to whales.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WxgeYXCjM8

 

 

Woo ah, mercy mercy me
Ah things ain't what they used to be, no no
Where did all the blue skies go?
Poison is the wind that blows from the north and south and east
Woo mercy, mercy me, mercy father
Ah things ain't what they used to be, no no
Oil wasted on the ocean and upon our seas, fish full of mercury
Ah oh mercy, mercy me
Ah things ain't what they used to be, no no
Radiation under ground and in the sky
Animals and birds who live nearby are dying
Oh mercy, mercy me
Ah things ain't what they used to be
What about this overcrowded land
How much more abuse from man can she stand?

10kby2k's picture

 

I guess they assume because it isn't airborne, that it isn't as cirtical?  Anyone have a guess if the runoff seawater will have near the same contamination as airborne radiation? 

TheMerryPrankster's picture

It could have the same radioactive components plus lots of other crap, namely anything they tried first to cool things down. Probably some boron compounds, possibly lead, uranium, actinides and ashes of all sorts.

 

i wouldn't want to swim in it, but chances are once it is diluted and sent through the food chain a couple of dozen times, we probably will be swimming in it, one way or another.

Water can transport much heavier compounds that the atmosphere won't.

Yes it should be monitored and measured, but Tepco is I'm sure unwilling, unable and would rather not provide even more data to show how incompetent and reckless they really are.

AnonymousAnarchist's picture

Actually, as Kevin Carson explains, the current incarnation of nuclear power could not have come about in free market. Now, it's possible -- even likely -- that a freed market would have come up with a safer way to utilize nuclear power (or even an alternative that would've made nuclear power obsolete) but the current state of things is due to the fact that we haven't had a free market.

aerojet's picture

I want to believe this, but I've seen the hangover from so much greed firsthand and I doubt very much that freed markets in nuclear power would get us anything except styrofoam containment vessels.  We had a free market in financial derivatives and that is going to impoverish a shit-ton of formerly middle class folks for generations.

AnonymousAnarchist's picture

We had a free market in financial derivatives...

Is this sarcasm?

Citxmech's picture

But would the "free market" version of nuclear power have included liability caps? 

If not, then I suspect that there would not be a single reactor anywhere - the cost to insure, whether self-insured, or private, would be far too high as the risk, albiet low, is almost unlimited in dollar terms. 

AnonymousAnarchist's picture

Obviously not. A market with liability caps, by definition, would not be a free market. If you would have read Carson's piece, you would see that he suspects the same thing that you suspect.

All I said was that "it's possible -- even likely -- that a freed market would have come up with a safer way to utilize nuclear power (or even an alternative that would've made nuclear power obsolete)". Obviously neither of us actually know but there are reasons to believe that there are safer ways to utilize nuclear power.

tmosley's picture

Of course there would be nuclear power--it would just be very safe designs (pebble bed, for example), or it would be in geographically isolated areas (for breeder reactors).

Further, nuclear power companies would operate at least until they had a meltdown, at which point they would go bankrupt from the associated costs.  The only ones that would survive in the long run are those that use the safest and most efficient designs.  This is how the free market works.  It isn't magic, it's evolution.

dugorama's picture

well, just who wants to learn from trial and error with breeder reactors?   we already lost 8% of europe's farmland to chernobyl forever.  now I assume we've lost one of the richest fisheries.  Since I'm fond of eating, I've had enough of this already.  Time out, game over.  I'd rather farm with mules than poison myself, thank you.

nufio's picture

in a free market system, its not necessary that the ceo of a company could care much about the financial health of the company as long as he gets his bonus. in an unregulated market even without liability caps, the effect of potential tremendous risk will not necessarily result in companies being propotionately safe. Since companies are run by people who are not fully invested in their own company the lack of a liability cap might not affect the risk a manager is willing to take on behalf of the company.

AnonymousAnarchist's picture

You seem to be conflating the current state-capitalist system (aka corporatism) with the free market. Without the state to protect decision makers (e.g.; executives) from liability, they would be responsible for any damage resulting from their decisions.

But, if my assumption about your conflationism is wrong then I'm curious. Since...

(1) you, for whatever reason, feel that, in a free market, society would not want those responsible for damages to be held liable and...

(2) the state not only doesn't stop this risky behavior (see Chernobyl, BP oil spill, etc.) but actually encourages it through subsidies and limited liability (in other words, it adds to the problem you have with a free market)...

...what are you suggesting?

avonaltendorf's picture

NUCLEAR INDUSTRY SPOKESMICE WEBINAR 2:00 PM EDT

EWI will host a conference call and webinar today at 2:00 pm - 3:00 pm EDT. The call will focus on the recent events in Japan that have heightened public concern over the safety and feasibility of using nuclear power. This concern, coupled with the data fog of information, has created an atmosphere where the lines between fact and conjecture are extremely blurred.

EWI wants to provide access to the data regarding the situation at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant in a form that is understandable to a non-Nuclear Engineer. The conference call and webinar will give you access to experts from the nuclear industry. They will provide you with the chain of events, without sensationalism or hypotheses, regarding what has transpired in Japan over the last week and half. You will hear directly from the experts and will have an opportunity to get your questions answered.

Our panel of industry experts include:

David Blee - U.S. Nuclear Infrastructure Council

Lake Barrett - Former Deputy Director, Office of Radioactive Waste Management

Edward Davis - Former President, American Nuclear Energy Council

Dan Yurman - American Nuclear Society

Nate Ames - Director, Nuclear Fabrication Consortium, Operated by EWI

You can join the discussion in two ways:

  • Via teleconference by dialing 614.384.5247 and using pin code: 029468#
  • Via the web by using the following link: http://InstantTeleseminar.com/?eventID=18477552 (please note, using the web link allows you to ask questions to the panel)
BigJim's picture

Yeah, none of those guys has an agenda.

TruthInSunshine's picture

Nuclear energy is the most heavily regulated industry on the face of the Earth.  What kind of retard thinks the free market has ANYTHING to do with what has happened in Japan, or anywhere else?

A free market would have replaced every last one of those super-expensive light water reactors with pebble bed or breeder reactors decades ago, and we would probably be several generations beyond that by now.

 

I'm all for free markets, but in the case of nuclear energy facilities, there are two highly relevant and compelling economic terms, 'externality' and 'economies of scale,' that cause me to at least think it possible that less regulation = worse.

BigJim's picture

In our current climate of limited corporate liability, I'd have to agree.

Broker NotBroke's picture

Externalities can be managed efficiently in a free market. In the current system, there's no accounting for negative externalities at all. It's a tragedy of the commons set up by our current communal ownership paradigm. A precedent needs to be set for civil claims against excessive risk taking by corporations. There is a free market solution.

Eternal Student's picture

Goodness knows that deregulation worked so stunningly well for the Banking industry. By your logic, it's a good thing Glass-Steagal was scrapped.

Broker NotBroke's picture

The banking industry was de-regulated, not unregulated. Regulatory capture is not as uncommon as you'd think. The rules are written to favor the rule makers. The revolving door between industry insiders and regulation sickens me.

Eternal Student's picture

De-regulated and captured to the point of no enforcement. That's a pretty free market. And just goes to show, yet again, that completely free markets lead to disasters. I'm sorry, but the Libertarian myths just don't hold up, either logically or based on the evidence. God help us had the Nuclear industry been a part of this myth. There would've been far more people dead, and far worse ecological damage.

Rodent Freikorps's picture

Laws are still enforced. Just not on the elites.

That is the path to Big Brother.

Broker NotBroke's picture

A free market requires competition. When the major players can manipulate the market, how can you say that it's free?

 

The nuclear industry is one of the most regulated industries in existence. Your regulators are as self interested as the next guy. Instead of pretending we can turn back the tide of human action, why don't you accept that people act in their own, sometimes short sighted, self interests and support planning accordingly? Ignorance of this fact is responsible for far more than the damage in in Fukushima.

Eternal Student's picture

So you're claiming that the major players aren't in competition with each other. I would disagree.

If you're claiming that regulation doesn't work, well, again the actual evidence is strongly against you. We had 70+ years of a pretty good system set up until the Free Market advocates dumped Glass-Steagal.

I also note that the poster boy of the Free Market Libertarians, you're own highly esteemed and worshiped Alan Greenspan, was shocked (shocked, I tell you!) that the Free Market failed to work.

Completely Free Markets are a great ideal. It's too bad that they have always lead to disaster (and arguably the greatest disasters) in practice.

Broker NotBroke's picture

wait...Are we talking about the same Greenspan? The guy who ran the fed? I thought we established that the Fed is about as anti-market as you can get.

 

Just cause he and Ayn Rand hung out doesn't mean he's Lazziez Faire.  

 

*edited for coherence

Republi-Ken's picture

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35 Million Helpless People In Fear

  Cesium... Iodine... Plutonium...

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        A Wind Shift Brings

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pcrs's picture

Without gvt intervention you could probably not even get a nuke plant build. Munich Re ceo says everything is insurable except nuke industry. Los Alamos/manhattan prj is also a nice example of gvt coerced contribution of tax slaves to nuke industry.

jus_lite_reading's picture

"Fukushima and Miyagi can not be measured."

 

That's because the geiger counters don't go that high! ;)

bob_dabolina's picture

I heard radioactive Iodine has been confirmed in Iceland.

http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFLDE72L0GA20110322?sp=true

I found this strange as the prevailing winds blow from West to East over Japan.

I'm not a nuclear physicist or anything but how was radioactive Iodine detected in Iceland from Fukashima but not the U.S, when the Iodine would have clearly blown over the U.S to reach Iceland?

SilverRhino's picture

At a guess, it's called a coverup.

tmosley's picture

My guess is a Japanese whaling fleet made port.

But seriously, Fukushima is not the only source for radioactive iodine in the world.  It could be easily explained by local sources.

IrishSamurai's picture

But seriously, Fukushima is not the only source for radioactive iodine in the world.  It could be easily explained by local sources.

You and your logical reason need to move on from these tinfoil posts ... all free roaming radioactive material is now universally the by-product of the Japanese disaster.  Nevermind the sun and all the other forms of free roaming radioactive material that naturally occur in our universe ... all free ranging radioactivity discovered in the world is now exclusively sourced from Japan ...

/sarc

This forum used to be great until it became overrun by the Alex Jones types ...

bob_dabolina's picture

WTF are you talking about? I am asking a logical question sourced from information obtained by Reuters

From the article:

"radioactive particles believed to have come from Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear power plant have been detected as far away as Iceland" The article goes on to say those particles were Iodine isotopes.

IrishSamurai's picture

I was talking to tsmosley ... you weren't in the conversation ... but since you injected with more ignorance, follow misean's advice above ...

bob_dabolina's picture

I appologize for jumping to conclusions. At work/multi tasking and misinterpreted.

IrishSamurai's picture

It's all good ... you're actually one commenter that I usually like to read their opinion.

In this case, not so much ... cause all the hysteria in the media (and now ZH) is usually completely unfounded or based on shoddy reasoning ...

Lots of radioactivity exists naturally on earth ... not every occurence is the result of Japan.  That is tmosley's point ... and a valid one at that.

taraxias's picture

Yeah, I know what you mean, radiation readings around the globe are jumping but it's just a coincidence they are doing that now. It really could be coming from anywhere.

 

Get a clue FFS !!!

IrishSamurai's picture

OH NOES !!1!11!!eleventy!!!

The sky is falling ... The sky is falling !!!!!!!!1111!!!! eleventy !!!!!

Thanks for your contribution to the forum.

Ident 7777 economy's picture

Yeah, I know what you mean, radiation readings around the globe are jumping but it's just a coincidence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You know, this would be a perfect opportunity to 'clean out that old warehouse' of radioactive anything  that might be stored, buried or otherwise archived; Japan is going to take the fall for any readings that move up-scale in any given location or country ...

 

Thinking out loud and somewhat conspiratorially in the above post. "Never let a crises go to waste" (Rahm) but the crises can also be used to conceal other activity ... just sayin ...

 

geekgrrl's picture

"this would be a perfect opportunity to 'clean out that old warehouse' of radioactive anything  that might be stored, buried or otherwise archived"

I had the same thought. On the other hand, the distribution in Europe (http://eurdeppub.jrc.it/eurdeppub/home.aspx#) seems more likely to reflect local sources. One need only look at the map for any day prior to the reactor explosions. When looking at each day for the last two weeks, I see that the levels dropped dramatically today, as compared to yesterday. So either there were routine releases that have ceased now that people are paying attention, or the European nuclear authorities are fudging the data to make things look better than they really are.

One thing this disaster has done is raise awareness of radiation levels around the world, and there many unasked questions that folks are beginning to ask.

tmosley's picture

Wow, there's a scary thought. 

ColonelCooper's picture

Mosley's point was very valid.  You seem however, to paint with a very broad brush anyone who doesn't swallow the shit that the MSM attempts to shovel down our throats. 

I'm not panicked, nor worried about my personal safety, nor am I a follower of Alex Jones.  What I am is disgusted by the entire aftermath of this horrible disaster.  The response, the coverup, the misinformation, etc..

I would take Bob's question at the face value in which he asked it.  How did the shit get to Iceland without getting here?  Answer:  It did get here.  Nobody's talking about it.  That isn't a conspiracy, it is what it is.  Nobody in the US is glowing, but that doesn't mean it wasn't here.