• George Washington
    09/05/2010 - 22:40
    When did it start? When will it end?
  • Cognitive Dissonance
    09/05/2010 - 15:45
    We should not adopt positions or beliefs that oppose the Ponzi simply because it’s contrary to the Ponzi. Doing so just shifts the illusion of control to us, but still leaves us dancing to the Ponzi beat. Our views should be adopted only after rigorous examination and vetting. This is the only way to a truly peaceful, free and sovereign life.
  • asiablues
    09/05/2010 - 18:06
    The back-to-back super-sized traffic jams near Beijing has landed China on the top spot among the cities with the world's worst traffic. While the world seems quite fixated on the length--miles and number of days--of these mega jams near Beijing, there's also a serious message--the under-capacity of China’s infrastructure.

Former Goldman Commodities Research Analyst Confirms LMBA OTC Gold Market Is "Paper Gold" Ponzi

Tyler Durden's picture




When we put up a link to last week's CFTC hearing webcast little did we know that it would end up being the veritable (physical) gold mine (no pun intended) of information about what really transpires in the commodities market. First, we obtained direct evidence from Andrew Maguire (who may or may not have been the target of an attempt at "bodily harm" as reported yesterday) of extensive manipulation in the silver market. Today, Adrian Douglas, director of GATA, adds to the mountain of evidence that the commodities market, and the CFTC, stand behind what is potentially the biggest market manipulation scheme in the history of capital markets (we are assuming for the time being that all allegations of the Fed manipulating the broader equity and credit markets are completely baseless). Using the testimony of a clueless Jeffrey Christian, formerly a staffer at the Commodities Research Group in the Goldman Sachs Investment Research Department and now head and founder of the CPM Group, Douglas confirms that the "LBMA trades over 100 times the amount of gold it actually has to back the trades."

Christian, who describes himself as "one of the world’s foremost authorities on the markets for precious metals" yet, in the words of Gary Gensler, said "that the bullion banks had large shorts to hedge themselves selling elsewhere- how do you short something to cover a sale, I didn’t quite follow that?" and proves that current and former Goldman bankers are some of the most arrogant people alive, assuming that everyone else is an idiot and will buy whatever explanation is presented just because the CV says Goldman Sachs. Yet Christian confirms that the gold market is basically a ponzi: "in the “physical market” as the market uses that term, there is much more metal than that…there is a hundred times what there is." And there you have it: as Douglas eloquently summarizes: "the giant Ponzi trading of gold ledger entries can be sustained only if there is never a liquidity crisis in the REAL physical market. If someone asks for gold and there isn’t any the default would trigger the biggest “bank run” and default in history. This is, of course, why the Central Banks lease their gold or sell it outright to the bullion banks when they are squeezed by high demand for REAL physical gold that can not be met from their own stocks" and concludes "Almost every day we hear of a new financial fraud that has been exposed. The gold and silver market fraud is likely to be bigger than all of them. Investors in their droves, who have purchased gold in good faith in “unallocated accounts”, are going to demand delivery of their metal. They will then discover that there is only one ounce for every one hundred ounces claimed. They will find out they are “unsecured creditors”.

For those of you who missed the CFTC hearing, here are two of the must-watch clips. In the first one, Adrian Douglas introduces the underlying concerns about the Ponzi nature of the LBMA hedging situation, in which a wholesale rush to "physical delivery" would result in a one hundred fold dilution of gold holdings, and a 99% result of unsecured creditor claims (good luck collecting on that particular bankruptcy). We also meet Jeffrey Christian, formerly of Goldman and currently of CPM, in which not only does the "expert" state that a bullion bank short is hedged by further shorting, but confirms Douglas' and GATA's previous claims that the "physical" market, as defined, is a joke, as the OTC market treats gold purely as a financial asset, essentially conforming to the precepts of fractional reserve banking. As Douglas notes "He confirms that the LBMA trades hundreds of times the real underlying physical. This is even a higher estimate than I have previously made! It is, as I asserted before the Commission, a giant Ponzi Scheme."

 

Here is running commentary from Douglas based on a transcript of this part of the hearing:

S. O’MALIA: Both Mr. Organ and Mr. Epstein in the second panel, raised the concerns that short positions exceed the physical supply. The second panel kind of argued that that wasn’t a concern. Are you concerned that the shorts will not be able to deliver if called upon?


J. CHRISTIAN: No. I am not at all concerned. For one thing it has been persistently that way for decades. Another thing is that there are any number of mechanisms allowing for cash settlements and problems and a third thing is as many people who are actually knowledgeable about the silver market and the gold market have testified today that almost all of those short positions are in fact hedges, the short futures positions are hedges, offsetting long positions in the OTC market. So I don’t really see a concern there.


[Note: It is interesting that Mr. Christian is not concerned about the ability of the shorts to deliver because they can cash settle! He clearly has no understanding that when someone wants to buy precious metals giving them cash  instead is a failure to deliver. It is a default! But he is not concerned! He says that the short position is actually hedged by a long position on the OTC but we will see later in this testimony how he describes the “OTC Physical Market” and we will see that the long position is not bullion but is in fact an unbacked (or only partially backed) I.O.U. bullion.]


S. O’MALIA: Mr Organ would you like to respond?


H. Organ: I do see a risk on this, and I think it is a risk that we have to be very, very careful of. As countries like China, South Korea and Russia start demanding and taking physical delivery of their gold and moving it offshore to their shores and putting pressure on the Comex, and we will probably come to a point in time where we will have a failure to deliver.


A DOUGLAS: Mr. Chairman, could I make a comment?


CHAIRMAN GENSLER: No! Who are you?


A DOUGLAS: I would…


CHAIRMAN GENSLER: No! I said “No!”


A DOUGLAS: Oh! You said “No”?


CHAIRMAN GENSLER: I don’t know who is this?


A DOUGLAS: I am Adrian Douglas; I am assisting Harvey.


CHAIRMAN GENSLER: Alright, Sir. Yes.


A DOUGLAS: I would just like to make a comment. We are talking about the futures market hedging the physical market. But if we look at the physical market,the LBMA, it trades 20 million ozs of gold per day on a net basis which is 22 billion dollars. That’s 5.4 Trillion dollars per year. That is half the size of the US economy. If you take the gross amount it is about one and a half times the US economy; that is not trading 100% backed metal; it’s trading on a fractional reserve basis. And you can tell that from the LBMA’s website because they trade in “unallocated” accounts. And if you look at their definition of an “unallocated account” they say that you are an “unsecured creditor”. Well, if it’s “unallocated” and you buy one hundred tonnes of gold even if you don’t have the serial numbers you should still have one hundred tonnes of gold, so how can you be an unsecured creditor? Well, that’s because its fractional reserve  accounting, and you can’t trade that much gold, it doesn’t exist in the world. So the people who are hedging these positions on the LBMA, it’s essentially paper hedging paper. Bart Chilton uses the expression “Stop the Ponzimonium” and this is a Ponzi Scheme. Because gold is a unique commodity and people have mentioned this, it is left in the vaults and it is not consumed. So this means that most people trust the bullion banks to hold their gold and they trade it on a ledger entry. So one of the issues we have got to address here is the size of the LBMA and the OTC markets because of the positions which are supposedly backing these positions which are hedges, but it is essentially paper backing paper.


[8 seconds of silence]

CHAIRMAN GENSLER: Oh! I guess I get time. Errr…Umm. I don’t have any other questions. Commissioner Dunn.


M. DUNN: I appreciate the difficulty of trying to do this by remote but at the end of your testimony you start talking about bona fide hedge exemptions for commercial traders and must be part of position limits and not to grant hedge exemptions to swap dealers would be devastating for liquidity of exchanges and the price discovery capacity, and we got into who determines what is legitimate, but could you amplify on that a bit and what you see as a danger there?


J. CHRISTIAN: Yes I can amplify on it; but amplify on it a bit is more difficult because it is a very big subject. The first thing is that precious metals, copper, other metals, energy these are all traded internationally and are fungible commodities by and large. There are a lot of strange things that have been misspoken about the difference between the wholesale and the retail market and we don’t really have the time to go over those, I think. But the fact of the   latter is…


[The lights go off]


J. CHRISTIAN: Oh excuse me. I am in a building with motion sensitive lighting and it doesn’t recognize what I do as human activity.

CHAIRMAN GENSLER: Those were your words not anybody’s here.


J. CHRISTIAN: No, they were my wife’s! If you start putting position limits on bona fide hedgers for example, the bullion banks, and the previous fellow was talking about hedges of paper on paper and that is exactly right. Precious metals are financial assets like currencies, T-Bills and T-bonds they trade in the multiples of a hundred times the underlying physical and so people buying them are voting and giving an economic view of the world or a view of the economic world and so when you start saying to a bank I have a number of people… [


Note: This is mind blowing. He openly admits that the LBMA OTC market is not trading in physical gold or silver; it is trading in paper promises. Gold is not intended to be a “financial asset” like T-Bills and currencies. That is the whole point of owning it. Actual physical bullion is a tangible asset with intrinsic value that doesn’t have counterparty risk. He believes the purpose of trading paper promises in gold is for investors to “vote” on their view of the economic world! He confirms that the LBMA trades hundreds of times the real underlying physical. This is even a higher estimate than I have previously made! It is, as I asserted before the Commission, a giant Ponzi Scheme.]


J. CHRISTIAN: well, actually let’s go back to a concrete example of Mr. Organ when he was talking about August of 2008 when there was an explosion in the short positions in gold and silver held by the bullion banks on the futures market and he seemed to imply that that was somehow driving the price down. If you understand how those bullion banks run their books the reason they had an explosion in their short positions was because they were selling bullion hand over fist in the forward market, in the physical market, and in the OTC options market. Everyone was buying gold everywhere in the world so the bullion banks who stand as market makers were selling or making commitments to sell them material and so they had to hedge themselves and they were using the futures market to do that. So if you place position limits on the futures market they will have to find some other mechanism to hedge themselves …and they will. And someone else will provide that market…


M. DUNN: Jeffery, I am going to cut you off because I want to ask another question of Mr. Organ.


[It is hard to imagine more inane drivel than this. He conjures up the image of bullion bankers selling bullion like crazy to the general public who are in a feeding frenzy and the bullion bankers are “hedging themselves” by selling gold short on the COMEX!!! Did he get that idea from a blonde? A little while later Chairman Gensler also realized that this was the biggest baloney ever concocted as a cover for massive gold market manipulation by JPMorgan and HSBC in 2008 and so poses a follow up question]……

And here is the second must watch clip:

CHAIRMAN GENSLER: I would like to follow up on Commissioner Dunn’s question for Mr. Christian, if I might, because I didn’t quite follow your answer on the bullion banks. You said that the bullion banks had large shorts to hedge themselves selling elsewhere, and I didn’t understand; I might just not have followed it and you’re closer to the metals markets than me on this, but how do you short something to cover a sale, I didn’t quite follow that?


J. CHRISTIAN: Well, actually I misspoke. Basically what you were seeing in August of 2008 was the liquidation of leveraged precious metals positions from a number of places and the bullion banks were coming back to buy it, and they were hedging those positions by going short on the COMEX and that is really what it was.


[Even on a second attempt Mr. Christian invents the most ridiculous poppycock to explain away the blatant manipulation of the precious metals in 2008. If, in his own words, investors were buying gold hand over fist everywhere in the world why would leveraged long holders dump all their long holdings? They would have ordinarily been making a fortune. The bank participation report of August 2008 shows that 2 or 3 bullion banks sold short the equivalent of 25% of world annual silver production in 4 weeks and the equivalent of 10% of world annual gold production. There was simultaneously a decrease in their long positions, which were almost non-existent anyway, which is incoherent with a notion the bullion banks were mopping up dumped leveraged investments. For an intelligent and coherent explanation of what happened in August 2008 read my CFTC written testimony here]


CHAIRMAN GENSLER: So I am glad I asked because I really didn’t follow that. But if I think of the earlier charts of the positions of the bullion banks that Mr. Sherrod had these concentrated shorts have been, well you know, reasonably consistent, they are not exactly the same on every day, but his charts showed a similarity across a couple of years. So what are bullion banks, I mean I am just trying to understand, what are bullion banks hedging on the other side, we heard from other panels, but you seem to be familiar, is it warehouse receipts, what is it?


J. CHRISTIAN: Well it’s a tremendous number of things. You were at Goldman shortly after me and we had an MIS system that kicked out a daily gold book.


CHAIRMAN GENSLER: That’s really remarkable because we don’t seem to have a lot of similar views, but you know, a lot of people were at Goldman Sachs.


J. CHRISTIAN: Well I didn’t like the trends at Goldman so I left in 1986. But honestly, and bad jokes aside, if you look at a bullion bank’s book, its gold book for example, you will see an enormous number of things; there will be gold forward purchases from mining companies, there will be forward purchases from refineries, there will be gold that has been leased out to electronics manufacturers, component manufacturers, and countless manufacturers and jewelers. As gold flows through the beneficiation process and again these are all long complex issues that are hard to reduce, but you know, a lot of producers will sell their gold the moment it leaves their possession at the mine. It might be in concentrate form or it might be in dore form. It then goes to a smelter or a refinery. The bullion bank buys that and it agrees a price at the time it is buying it but it won’t be allowed to sell that metal until the refinery outturn which maybe two weeks but it could be six months. So they will go into the market and short the market in order to cover the commitment they have made to buy at that price and then when they get the metal in the physical market then they can either sell that metal in the physical market and unwind the hedge in the futures market or the forward market or do something else. There are all sorts of other derivative contracts that investment banks and bullion banks will sell to investors, to other banks, pension funds, to insurance companies and each of those will often have a long exposure in gold which will be  hedged with an offsetting short position [note: There he goes again with that blonde idea that when you sell gold to someone you hedge that with a short position!]. So if you look at a bullion bank’s gold book or silver book you would find a large range of topics. One of the things that the people who criticize the bullion banks and talk about this undue large position don’t understand what is the nature of the long positions of the physical market and we don’t help it; the CFTC when it did its most recent report on silver used the term that we use “the physical market”. We use that term as did the CFTC in that report to talk about the OTC market in other words forwards, OTC options, physical metal and everything else. People say, and you heard it today, there is not that much physical metal out there, and there isn’t. But in the “physical market” as the market uses that term, there is much more metal than that…there is a hundred times what there is. If I look at the large short positions on the COMEX my question is where are the other shorts being hedged? because the short position, that I believe the bullion banks use to hedge their physicals, is larger than their short position on the COMEX and the answer is that they hedge it in the OTC market in London.


CHAIRMAN GENSLER: I thank you for that detailed discussion


END

The CFTC position limits hearing was supposed to usher in a new era of transparency and honesty into the dealings of the gold market. In a very ironic way, it did just that.

Here is Douglas' must read conclusion - and a warning for anyone who believes that following a wholesale run on commodities, investors will be able to have access to what is contractually theirs.

This is a stunning revelation. Mr. Christian confirms that the “physical market” is not in fact a physical market at all. It is a loose description of all the paper trading and ledger entries and some physical metal movements that occur each day  on behalf of people who believe they own bullion in LBMA vaults but in fact they don’t. They are told they have “unallocated gold” or “unallocated silver” but that does not mean the LBMA has physical metal set aside for those customers and has just not given specific bar numbers to the customers. No, it is the most cynical and corrupt definition of “unallocated”…the customer has NO bullion allocated to him. NONE! The LBMA defines the owners of “unallocated accounts” quite clearly as “unsecured creditors”. That means they have NO collateral. NONE. Can it be any clearer? It is a giant Ponzi scheme.


Mr. Christian confirms what many analysts and GATA have been alleging that there is not much REAL physical metal, but testifies that there is actually one hundred times the REAL Physical metal being sold based on the much more “loose” definition of what “physical” means to the bullion banks.


The last sentence of his statement is mind-blowing. He says the “physical” positions of the bullion banks are so huge that they are much bigger than the COMEX short position. He says the “physicals” are hedged on the OTC market in London! Did you get that? Let me walk you through it. The bullion banks are selling what is supposed to be vault gold but it is just a ledger entry if the customer never asks for delivery. They must balance their exposure with a ledger deposit entry. This has to be some paper promise of gold from a third party, or some derivative, or even some real gold bullion. If all the ledger entries balance out then the bullion bank has no net exposure in exactly the same way the futures market works with a short offsetting a long. A futures market can never default if no one asks for delivery as only paper contracts are traded. The loosely defined “physical” London market is an identical scheme. As long as everyone is prepared to buy and sell “ledger entries” for imaginary gold in the vault no one will ever discover the fraud.


The LBMA does, however, buy and sell some real physical metal as well. But we now know form Mr. Christian’s testimony that this is one one-hundredth the size of the paper gold trading. The LBMA states on its website that it trades 20 million ozs of gold each day on a net basis. We can calculate the net trade of REAL physical gold should be about 200,000 ozs each day; that is 6.25 tonnes per day or 1625 tonnes per year. This is very much in line with the size of total global mining output of approximately 2200 tonnes per year.


So the giant Ponzi trading of gold ledger entries can be sustained only if there is never a liquidity crisis in the REAL physical market. If someone asks for gold and there isn’t any the default would trigger the biggest “bank run” and default in history. This is, of course, why the Central Banks lease their gold or sell it outright to the bullion banks when they are squeezed by high demand for REAL physical gold that can not be met from their own stocks.


Almost every day we hear of a new financial fraud that has been exposed. The gold and silver market fraud is likely to be bigger than all of them. Investors in their droves, who have purchased gold in good faith in “unallocated accounts”, are going to demand delivery of their metal. They will then discover that there is only one ounce for every one hundred ounces claimed. They will find out they are “unsecured creditors”.


GATA has long advocated the ownership of real physical bullion. The “bombshells” dropped in the CFTC Public Hearing have only served to reinforce that view. We believe we have made significant new inroads into exposing the fraud, and the suppression of precious metals prices and it is documented in the CFTC’s own hearing.


March 27, 2010
Adrian Douglas
Director of GATA
Proprietor of Market Force Analysis
www.MarketForceAnalysis.com
info@marketforceanalysis.com

h/t MarketForceAnalysis

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by cymro33
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:11
#278795

Roeuters: President O announced details of his new initative to pass the “Retirement Annuity Act “(RAA). The president said the taxpayer does not have the necessary sophisticated financial knowledge (no inside information, no lobbyists to ensure laws are written in their favor, etc.) to compete against banks and hedge funds. Mutual Funds have failed miserably.

1.    All workers will contribute 10% of their after tax salary to their RAA account. Employers will match with 15%.
2.    Funds will be invested in 10, 20, and 30 year TIPS. (Govt will continue to calculate the inflation rate so that it will never exceed 2.25%)
3.    The worker on retirement at age 72 ½ will draw an annuity until death.

The President said this is a win - win for taxpayers and Govt. The cash collected weekly will pay for Govt liabilities (similar to Social Security) and the taxpayer will have their investment in rock solid backed Govt TIPS.
 

by Bob
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:16
#278801

Just to clarify: So these new "benefits" will run parallel to the Social Security program investments I've been making for my whole life?

Or will they transfer the present value of my SS "contributions" into the RAA?

This has gotta be voluntary, right?

by cymro33
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:15
#278821

This will be in addition to SS. Govt data found that 31% of workers have saved nothing for retirment. The program will be mandatory.

by Dantzler
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:55
#278819

Link?

by cymro33
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:10
#278887

Just in from Tyler Durden   “ It's Official - America Now Enforces Capital Controls”

'And so the noose on capital mobility tightens, as very soon the only option US citizens have when it comes to investing their money, will be in government mandated retirement annuities, which will likely be the next step in the capital control escalation, which will culminate with every single free dollar required to be reinvested into the US, likely in the form of purchasing US Treasury emissions such as Treasuries, TIPS and other worthless pieces of paper.'

by bc0203
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:10
#278885

Cymro33,

The only mention of a "Retirement Annuity Act" when I google it is HR 828, which was introduced on Feb 3, 2009.  According to Washington Watch, the purpose of that bill was the following:

"H.R. 828 would amend chapter 84 of title 5, United States Code, to allow individuals who return to Government service after receiving a refund of retirement contributions to recapture credit for the service covered by that refund by repaying the amount that was so received, with interest."

The actual text of the bill is less than a page long, and pretty much says the same thing.

What are you referring to?

 

 

 

by cymro33
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:13
#278889

See note #278887.

by bc0203
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:22
#278898

Oh I get it.  Your post was satire.  Next time start with, "I can see it now," and use a date in the future, so you don't make those of use of us who might be affected have a mild coronary.

by Double down
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:44
#279110

Mild!  I have to clean my chair!

by Segestan
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:12
#278797

Adrian Douglas for President.

by Bob
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:13
#278798

Jeeze, should we be looking behind this Gold Curtain?

by PaperWillBurn
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:15
#278800

$1,100 X 100 =

by boricuadigm-shift
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:34
#278808

I was just thinking about that.  Gold/Silver is cheap beyond our wildest dreams!  When all this shit is really exposed we would have wish they kept the game going for at least another 1-2 years.

Too much exposure in the last couple of weeks.  I'm wondering if the Elite already have all physical gold/silver they need and they are ready for the countdown.

"Houston, we are ready for the countdown"

"Up up and away"

 

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:44
#278959

-- Maguire.

-- New ZH thread on reporting American accounts overseas.

-- Now London apparently outed as a Ponzi / gold scheme.

As bugs said on the other thread, it's almost midnight.  Funny how fast things are happening now.

by delacroix
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:33
#279161

labor and energy to mine and refine 1 oz of silver $6  labor and energy to mine and refine 1 oz gold $635  silver is an insanely cheap bargain right now, and we use it up faster and faster. pretty soon it will be a rare earth element.

by Cookie
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 23:27
#279365

Rare earths are not 'rare', just extremely difficult to refine

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 00:03
#279395

delacroix and Cookie, I am interested in rare earth metals as a possible investment opportunity (esp. if I am wrong about TSHTF...!)

Apparently the US does not have adequate capacity to refine the various metals in that group.

I am considering actually buying Europium and Terbium as a medium term investment if our economies get back in order.  Maybe a miner or two of the same.

ANYBODY who knows something about rare-earth metals, please chime in!

by SWRichmond
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:48
#278814

...bread at $150 a loaf.

by A Nanny Moose
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:55
#278818

Pitchforks and torches....priceless

by simonyadig
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:02
#278826

$1,100 X 100 = $1,100........ apparently.

by BrianOFlanagan
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:32
#278807

GLD investors must be sweating.

If it's not in your hand, you don't own it!

by Harbourcity
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:34
#278809

Arrogance is a common defense of elitists.  Look at Geithner and Bernanke.  They behave as if they are the only ones who knows what's going on and so we should listen to them even if we believe they're wrong.  It's exhausting because there is nothing at this time to hold these peoples feet to the fire.  They do what they do with impunity.

by DaveyJones
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:37
#278855

Arrogance is also a defense of white collar criminals to get you to back off

by DosZap
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:39
#278810

This has been my contention all along..........ETF's in PM's should not be allowed to operate, unless they have the reserves to back them.

It's a SCAM...............just like fractional reserve banking, you deposit a $1,000, they loan out $10,000,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Except this is worse, they have NOTHING , no reserves (physical of any kind).

Should be shut down, Gold & Slvr, would skyrocket.

NO PHYSICAL STOCK, NO ETF's...........period.

Now, control THAT!

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:42
#278812

Told ya...

http://gordongekkosblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/its-going-to-implode-buy-physical-gold.html

by Hulk
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:45
#278861

seems to me that a Soros type could make a big enough delivery demand to trigger a delivery stampede and collapse the paper market. This is going to be interesting...

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:47
#278962

THAT would make it 11:59. 

Or 11:59:55.

by jedwards
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:19
#279004

I agree with you that a gold run will turn the paper gold instruments such as gold contracts and GLD into completely worthless items, however, I believe that this type of event will will take down physical gold as well.

If global confidence in anything gold-related falters, then I think people en masse will abandon gold completely because they won't know what is fake and what is real.  If this happens, I think the entire gold market could be wiped out.

Look at the auction rate securities market.  All it took was for a couple of failed auctions, and as far as I can tell, it's dead in the water, even though the concept is sound.  If people can't trust paper contracts for gold delivery, without the liquidity that electronic trading provides, I just can't see how people will be able to run to it as a store of value.

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:35
#279030

If you are correct it would be the buying opportunity of the millennium.  Or do you also think that people will cling to currencies while the central banks are desperate race to debase and devalue to 0?  I do think paper gold will go down but for some reason I don't understand why if there is demand for something then it turns out the supply is 1/100 of the expect supply it would crash in value.  That is like if I bought a Rolls Royce and then all the other Rolls Royces in the world disappeared, would mine get more or less value?

by jedwards
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 23:24
#279363

But your example doesn't match the situation.

What if you want to buy a used Rolls Royce, but there are fake Rolls Royces being sold at the exact same price as real ones, and you won't be able to tell the difference unless you bring it in to a Rolls Royce dealership (after buying it).

Now, let's say it's not just fake, but they explode.  Are you still interested in buying Rolls Royces?  If you have no confidence whether or not what you're buying is real, would you really want to bother buying it, or would you switch to Bentley because you know there are less fake Bentleys on the market?

If the problem of fake exploding Rolls Royces becomes rampant, the pool of potential buyers now decreases, and they'll all move to buying Bentleys.  Now, with the demand of Rolls Royces dropping, the value of your Rolls Royce diminishes.

If this becomes a global trend, and people move away from gold or Rolls Royces as a store of value, then it becomes a real problem.

I don't think this would occur until there's a gold run.  And I think the probability of a gold run is very small.  But if there ever a gold run, it could be the case that global interest for gold as a store of value could potentially be irrevocably damaged.  Maybe it might move to USD again like it did in 2008, or maybe the yuan, oil, platinum, etc.

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 23:53
#279387

If you are referring to the paper market, then I take possession of my Rolls and let other people play with paper Rolls.  The paper ones explode and my real one remains.  In this case there would be a clear distinction, as one exists the other one does not.

Now if there was fake physicals Rolls then yes you would be correct.  However it is difficult to fack 1 ounce coins.  Not impossible to be sure but any real counterfeiting would be at the hirer end of the market because harder to sound test and more opportunity for profit.  Now I'm not convinced of the whole tungsten bar scandal is gospel.  If that happen that could hurt the market, but again the small coins are still safe.  But those trying to sell large bars would find confidence at a premium.

But counterfeiting happens.  It happens a great deal with paper money after all.  I suppose one could even try to counterfeit oil (addatives) if we have to haul drums of it around as currency.  Counterfeiting has always been a problem, at least with counterfeit gold there is still gold in it otherwise hte fact could never pass.  With counterfeit paper it's all worthless.

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:21
#279091

Testing for fake Gold isn't that hard. All you have to do is to melt it. Any kid in Asia knows it.

by Cognitive Dissonance
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 20:32
#279206

Which is what makes Gold coins so valuable. They are so small and thin it isn't worth it (yet) or even feasible (yet) to fake them with tungsten, making them good as Gold, pun intended.

by Cookie
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 23:31
#279366

+1 GG. I am astounded about the lack of knowledge in the western world about how here in Asia gold, is, was, and will always be money and the ultimate store of wealth. There are as many gold shops as 7-11's for God's sake!!

by Double down
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:46
#279112

Collateral:)

by Renfield
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 17:27
#280033

GG

That was a fine summary of recent key events in this paper-gold fiasco. Very clear for those of us less versed in goldbug-lore. I hope you will continue to write more in this vein - I need more stuff like this, condensed down, especially when showing family & friends who are even less money-minded than I am, and who are continually confused by the paper 'gold' price.

Khrysos bless you - and Adrian Douglas and Harvey Organ too!

by Gold...Bitches
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:42
#278813

and thats why you need to own some physical before this thing blows up

by cognitis
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:51
#278817

So many posters here divulge themselves to be dolts and gullible. Everthing provided by Blogger are nothing more than hearsay, fabrications, fallacies; as I observed in a prior post, the gullible rustic Andrew Maguire never provided "direct evidence" of anything but rather hearsay from anonymous sources; trading volumes of any derivative in excess of known inventories is common and necessary for liquidity, and only someone who has never traded any futures contracts at all should be ignorant of this commonly known fact; different prices between fungible markets at different times is also common and never indicates "market manipulation", since--golly gee Gomer--JPM could pump the gold market in Hong Kong as easily as in NYC or London. To the dolts and gullible who credit futures markets to owe them free money and a living: continue buying the headlines and conspiracy rants, since someone has to lose and get blown out at short-term bottoms.

by Quintus
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:12
#278835

You go your way brother, and we'll go ours.  One side will be right and one side will be wrong, only time will tell.

Now, those of us taking the Precious Metals side of the debate have heard arguments, if that is not to overly elevate the status of your little rant, like yours several thousand times before.  It always amazes me that you paperbugs devote so much time and effort to Gold-related discussions.  Any discussion of Gold or Silver seems to possess an irresistible attraction to paperbugs; pulling them in like bees to an open jam jar.  On the other hand, Precious Metals investors do not, to my knowledge, generally troll paperbug blogs and websites attempting to convince those who believe that their life savings are best stored in paper that they are wrong.  

Please feel free to curb your missionary zeal to bring enlightenment to the poor benighted savages (or 'Gullible Dolts' as you charmingly put it) in the Precious Metals markets.  We're fine as we are thanks.

by SWRichmond
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:43
#278923

Any discussion of Gold or Silver seems to possess an irresistible attraction to paperbugs; pulling them in like bees to an open jam jar. 

What a gem that is!  Isn't it amazing how the radical paperbugs always show up to cajole, threaten, debase?  Well, debasing is what they are best at, isn't it?

by Gunther
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:05
#278989

Cognitis,
the trading volume can be higher then the physical supply if the same stuff gets traded back and forth during the day. With the two daily sessions of the LBMA I do not see multiple trades happen but it might be possible.
The big issue is if more metal sold then really available. That is the equivalent of naked shorting stocks with the difference that is possible to ask for delivery of the metal. Nobody claimed that the bullion banks sell only metal short that they own thus they are in trouble if delivery is called. That is the point.

by TheGoodDoctor
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:21
#279147

I thought every trade needed to have a unique serial number that was tied to the bar. So, are they doing multiple trades from the same bar? Or are there multiple serial numbers per bar? How are they doing it to get away with it if there is a 100x multiple in the paper markets?

by A_MacLaren
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 01:12
#279424

So, are they doing multiple trades from the same bar?

Yes.  Unallocated accounts.  Pools of ledger entries. There is no bar in their warehouse with your serial number on it.

 

by Lionhead
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:56
#278820

The coy smile & pauses of Gensler after Adrian Douglas drops his bomb is priceless. The CFTC's paper scam game with the collusion of the bullion banks has just been officially exposed at their own hearing. As for Christian, his terms of obfuscation, e.g., beneficiation process & the physical market just add to the confusion to muddy the waters to the public investor. Oh, yes he admits, "Well actually, I misspoke." No doubt he did on his earlier comments.

If the CFTC allows business as usual in the futures/OTC markets, then the bifurcation between the real physical market & the paper market will continue with a premium on the physical market prices. Since they cannot fix that, they eventually loose control over price discovery. Game up boyz...

by b_thunder
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:58
#278822

"how do you short somethign to cover a sale"  -- no, it's not a hedge. it's doubling down, the favorite recommendation of so-called financial advisors whose previous recommended investments are under water.  "You liked it at 10?  You sure will like it at 5!"

 

" Mr. Christian is not concerned about the ability of the shorts to deliver because they can cash settle! He clearly has no understanding that when someone wants to buy precious metals giving them cash  instead is a failure to deliver. It is a default!"   --   it may technically be a default, but if the government declares a "gold holiday" and says you have 2 choices:  take cash (perhaps at fixed exchange rate, so not to overload printers in the Fed) or do 15 to 20 without possibility of parole, you'll gladly take that cash.

 

by Waterfallsparkles
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:35
#278853

Yes, they can cash settle because "Owners" do not Own the physical Gold they just have a Ledger entry in their name not an account backed by the Physical Gold.

Based on the Fiat Money system.  No one will ask for their Gold so sell 1,000.times what you actually have in your vaults.

Clever and misleading.  But, hey, anyone who deals in the commodity Markets should be smart enough to know.

by Crime of the Century
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:53
#278872

Many people in GLD think they will be able to collect "their" gold should they desire. Despite the blinding legalese in the prospectus, it was sold to them as buying gold. Real gold.

by fightthepower
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:53
#278870

I am not sure why you would sell something to hedge a sale. 

The actual transaction should go like this:  A mining company wants to sell 10,000 ounces of gold, they call up Goldman Sachs and sell the gold.  Goldman Sachs buys the gold from the mining company, then sells a gold futures contract to hedge the purchase.  Is that what he was talking about?

by saulysw
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 07:01
#279501

Ah, but when I too k delivery of my ounces, I decided to rid myself of worldly goods and threw them into the ocean. So sorry!

by digalert
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 13:59
#278823

I don't have the education or salary of these clowns in suits, so forgive me when I stumble on this,

"there is a hundred times what there is" statement. So to make it simple for me. I would be better off trading all my physical Gold for that there ledger Gold, then I'd be full of it.

by Gunther
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:09
#278946

Digalert,

another way to put it is: "LBMA trades over 100 times the amount of gold it actually has to back the trades." Or in plain English there is one ounce of gold to back onehunderd ounces of paper promises to deliver gold.

by Popo
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:04
#278828

The theatre is burning.  Smoke is filling the room.  Those who run first will survive.  Those who wait are toast.

 

In other words:  DEMAND DELIVERY TODAY.  DO NOT WAIT.

 

 

by SWRichmond
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:45
#278925

Those who run first will survive.

If you're going to panic, panic first.

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:51
#278969

+ FOFOA's $55,000!

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:57
#278976

I read that call on that price and thought it was pure fantasy...now if this 100 to 1 leverage is true, and the dollar pops...I don't know.  I think that number is still high but God, what if it does hit that.  It will be like Judgement Day.

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:54
#279055

Again, I typically like reading the extreme positions.  Although FOFOA really seems to know what he is talking about.

Shameful, I hope you are still thinking over other places to go and check out (if you exfiltrate).  Let us know how your thinking evolves.

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:12
#279079

His position is interesting, but I think the state will not agree with freegold.  It's to much power in the hands of the individual.

Yeah talked about it again today with my mom actually.  I have to go to DC this summer for a school event (and they have not posted the time, just that they will pay for me to go) so I have not nailed it down for time.  Right now this summer looks like Asia.  Current plan is to check out Singapore for me and then go with my folks to Thailand and check out Chiang Mai and a few other places for them.  So I might be a true oddity, a young computer nerd going to Thailand with his parents...maybe I will have to bust out with my programming joke shirts to show how cool I am :)

If things get really crazy before then  might have to look at safety deposit boxes in Singapore.  I like the idea of having assets away from Uncle Sugar.

The only problem I see myself having is I picked a weird degree selection (Accounting and Law, yes silly calls since I'm working as a programmer).  My current employment is rock solid, and they will pay for further education, so part of me is tempted to ride another year of school after my law degree to get my BS Computer Science to make myself more marketable.  But if I do that will feel better if my folks are holding most of my assets overseas.  Figure if I have some gold then I probably can get my happy ass out unless things go really crazy overnight.  Though I'm in the camp where I think it will be a slide into oblivion instead of an overnight crash.

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:17
#279000

More like $100k+

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:18
#279003

BUY. GOLD. NOW.

by SWRichmond
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:01
#279068

GG,

All we have to do is keep taking delivery, no matter how many radical paper bugs descend upon us.  And, while you have said you're already "all-in", I have dry powder and can help accelerate the process when the time comes.  It's like fighting without fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:23
#279152

Yeah because when it comes it will happen very fast and I don't want to take the risk of being left holding the bag.

by SWRichmond
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:39
#279168

I am nearly adequately "in".  I just wanna be able to say "I helped".

by Stumeister
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:22
#279094

GG,

Take me to a paperless economy.  I have a bunch of gold sitting in my basement.  I need to eat.  Do I take a gold bar and drive to the grocery store and buy a head of lettuce?  What does he give me in change?  Who sets a price?

So if commerce ends, how important is the gold in my basement?

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:14
#279142

Whoever said anything about commerce ending? It will just a good old fashioned looting of the masses via a massive devaluation of the currency, as has happened countless times throughout history in countless countries. Does the world "wealth preservation" mean anything to you? Of course, you will only understand it if you have any.

by Cognitive Dissonance
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 20:36
#279209

Silver for the small stuff (and as small change for large purchases made with Gold) and Gold for the big purchases.

I've see a lot of comments about how this or that place/person/clerk won't understand the value of Gold or Silver. Trust me on one thing. If a collapse happens, people will quickly come up to speed on what is valuable and what is not.

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:02
#279288

Trust me on one thing. If a collapse happens, people will quickly come up to speed on what is valuable and what is not.

BINGO.

by Cookie
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 23:34
#279370

Read some history to find out how it works

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:05
#278831

By now it is clear even to my 1 year old nephew that the US Government is corrupt beyond belief. Absolute power has corrupted them absolutely.

by Dark Helmet
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:15
#278840

It's not just the U.S. government. It's a problem across our whole society.

It sort of pisses me off how all the conservatives whine about a "moral crisis" and cite things like gay people getting married, etc. There is a *real* moral crisis, but "the ghey" is not it. The real moral crisis is systematic and widespread *lying*, fraud, and con artistry in both government and the private sector.

by Barmaher
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:46
#278960

Well, yeah, "the ghey" IS part of it. 

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:55
#278973

I think I know why "it's a problem across our whole society."

 

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked, 'Account overdrawn.'

 

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world? You are."

 

This explains it quite well, doesn't it? So as not to bias your view, I'll leave it for you to figure out who said it (if you can't tell already ;-)). 

 

by merehuman
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:47
#279113

i believe it was in Ayn Rands book , Atlas shrugged?

by cognitis
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:13
#278832

For the dolts who clearly know nothing about futures markets try crude oil: crude oil trades more volume everyday than crude in SPRo; but wait! there's more! Crude also trades on ICE, TOCOM and various other smaller exchanges! Golly gee Gomer, get all your fellow rustics together in a mob and...JUST TAKE DELIVERY! But wait! There's even more! More corn trades on CBOT every day than corn in all the silos in BOTH Illinois and Iowa. Gomer! We could...START A FOOD SHORTAGE! 

by Popo
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:25
#278845

Well, saying that all commodities markets are based on paper promises that exceed physical supply does not make any one pyramid scheme safer than the next.

 

But there *is* a major difference with gold:  Globally, fiat currencies are in serious trouble.   Sovereign governments seeking to shore up strength in their respective currencies *are* demanding delivery.  As the beta in the FX market increases, so will large-scale demand for delivery.  And this is where things get dicey. 

 

China alone can not only destabilize the gold market -- but jeopardize American and European banks through the simple process of buying physical.

 

Golly gee Gomer?

 

 

by taraxias
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:28
#278849

"Gold is Money and Nothing Else"

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:55
#278975

+100000000

by delacroix
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:41
#279169

taraxias, don't be dissin silver

by Reese Bobby
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:50
#278866

Whoa.  You sound like the dim-wit in the video who can’t explain the market he has operated in his whole life.  ANYBODY who thinks they have the derivatives market all figured out thinks very highly of themselves indeed, IMO.

“The gold carry trade works as follows. A central bank loans a bank (sometimes called a bullion bank) some gold. The gold lease rate is usually very low. The bullion bank immediately sells the gold and invests in securities with a higher rate of return, such as government long-term bonds. The carry return is the return on the bonds minus the gold lease rate. However, this trade is risky on two dimensions. First, if the bullion bank invested in long-term bonds and the interest rate goes up, the trade could be unprofitable. More seriously, the bullion bank has effectively sold the gold short. If the loan is called by the Central bank and if gold has risen in value, the bullion bank will have to go into the market and purchase higher priced gold. Indeed, if many banks are short, the unwinding of the gold carry trade could drive the gold price even higher.”

Multiply that problem by 100 Skippy…for starters...

by cognitis
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:01
#278876

Evidently you didn't comprehend your own excerpt: the Leverage is the Central Bank lending gold to the Bullion Bank, so why should I "multiply that problem [sic] by 100"?

by Reese Bobby
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:48
#279045

Because it sounds like gold sales are ten times the physical supply.  I'll help you along here.  Everything will be o.k.

by merehuman
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:51
#279119

while i am an admitted know nothing. you sir trade your self quite highly.

Deflation cometh to us all, egos included.

by delacroix
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:43
#279171

I can't really afford a big ego anymore, alas my humble station will have to suffice

by Popo
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 06:22
#279496

Actually, leverage compounded is a factorial not a multiplier.

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:54
#278932

Perhaps my understanding of Christian's revelations and Douglas' interpretation of them is shallow or misplaced, but isn't the "MESSAGE" one that London Bullion Market is supposed to be a "physical" trading centre. If so, isn't the interpretation by Christian (whereby he explains that the bullion banks trading there, have developed their own interpretation of "physical", to be 100 times more than actually exists), correct? (If so, I'm going to use that stratagem with my bank manager when I ask him for a loan to buy gold tomorrow.) I think that if you check the figures, as released by the BIS, of their OTC gold and other (PM's) derivatives, Christian is right. They have sold more than 100 times more than exists. Unless of course there is another explanation for those derivs.

by Kayman
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:04
#278987

Dear Mr. Cognitis:

 

I gotcha. But ... the trading is entirely about the skim.  Gold is a special case in that it is the only yardstick to measure fiat currency.

And in theory one could take delivery of anything. Joe Public might just ask for real physical delivery of gold.  Not many people could park a shipload of crude oil in the basement.

I own no gold, physical, paper, or otherwise... sorry- teeth.

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:15
#279144

Looks like Larry Summers has started posting on ZH...

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:18
#279145

I doubt it.  That would imply he could stay awake long enough to type out a post.

by Dark Helmet
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:08
#278833

We're all in Missouri now. New rule: "show me" or it's a scam. Or in Internet cliche language: "pic or it didn't happen."

That applies to all kinds of things: claims of "revolutionary" new technologies, all kinds of papers assets, investment schemes, promises of future benefits, etc.

We have allowed our civilization to slouch toward a state where fraud and con-artistry have become socially normalized.

by theworldisnotenough
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:10
#278836

My day traders friends are going to be sick if gold goes to $5000/oz.

by gringo28
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:11
#278837

isn't the real beneficiary of this spot price melt up the miners themselves? FCX for example trades at 1x its proven gold reserves, so all the non-gold production is gravy. why wouldn't a spike in the spot just expand the multiples on the companies in the extraction pipeline? the notion that gov'ts would let the spot dictate financial markets is silly.  it's not like we haven't had periods of rationing before. why not spot gold and silver?

by Internet Tough Guy
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:12
#278838

Finally a conspiracy I can sink my teeth into. Because there is, ya know, evidence.

by cognitis
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:17
#278842

This blog does provide evidence of Mackay's famous subject: the madness and delusion of crowds.

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:15
#278997

Which is what the US Dollar is - an entity COMPLETELY based upon the "madness and delusion of crowds".

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:34
#279017

And no surer evidence comes than from your own thinking. We are on the outer here. You're in the crowd. Sleep little one, go back to sleep.

by Kayman
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:29
#279022

Well, yes sir, Mr. Cognitis, your brilliance is hard on the eyes.

The point is that the trades are highly (and it appears to be unrestrictedly) leveraged and physical delivery of the contracted Gold is not possible- regardless of the likelihood of it being demanded.

As a physical buyer of commodities in the cash market, I can assure, should I contract for physical delivery, I get it.

When and if the day comes when there is a failure of  physical delivery of contracted Gold purchases, all your leveraged paper will not save your butt.

by RobotTrader
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:17
#278841

Looks prime for a gap up and breakaway....

Hey, if LULU can breakaway with a 12% move, why can't GLD do the same?

 

Same setup here.  As is typical during gold market consolidations, sentiment and price action in the XAU usually "overreacts" with a bias towards the downside.

The over reaction is usually reversed unexpectedly, at the worst possible time for the short sellers.

Note how Seabridge Gold already telegraphed the move by moving up sharply the last couple of days.

by MarketTruth
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:26
#278846

Why can't GLD you ask?

Because it may be another paper fraud, that is why. Ok, just ONE more time for those less familiar:

 

ASK YOURSELF: do you really trust that these ETFs have the gold they claim and GLD's counterparties that store said gold are not leasing it out or creating/forming/leveraging some other paper gold on top of their paper gold. As an example, GLD can hold NOT GOOD bars for proper delivery to the market and they do not insure their gold holding. Add to that, there are many other serious situations one should consider before choosing GLD or other ETFs.

Read GLD's 10-k filing at www.spdrgoldshares.com/media/GLD/file/10k_Sept08.pdf and pay special attention to pages 54 to 62.

Bottom line, if you want to invest in gold i would do as GLD's largest shareholder did about a year ago.... they sold their GLD holdings and purchased physical metal and took delivery. In this day and age counterparty risk is to be avoided imho.

 

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:02
#278983

My Fellow Little Angels: you should consider skipping work tomorrow and buying physical gold and guns & ammo.

Gold is a GIFT even up to $1500.

As MarketT, GordonG, Chumba and many others are now saying the game is up.

My guess is that if you have not already started preparing for the worst, the game is pretty much over for you.  Anyone reading here at ZH for more than a month should have acted by now.

And if I (and others) are wrong, well so what!  We at least got ready.

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:30
#279024

x100!

by perchprism
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:46
#279173

 

Yeah, I'm done now.  I'm not willing to take on any more credit card debt at this time.  Of course, if everything started to go to hell, I'd whip it out.  I'm building a greenhouse, very cheap as it turns out.  I'll have brocolli and spinach in the winter.

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 20:41
#279210

Banzai to you!

by Popo
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 06:25
#279497

Well, if you believe in inflation you should take on a whole lot more credit card debt.

 

 

by Al Huxley
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:29
#278909

I agree with the setup, although I do think the first move here will be a fake-out, followed by one more leg down to support to shake-out and demoralize the gold community (yet again!), maybe in conjunction with the long-overdue correction in the general markets.  Then, counter to everybodys' expectations for seasonal weakness the market will take off. 

The Canadian gold juniors market (smaller-to-midsize players on the TSX, not the Venture exchange) have had a really solid run and probably need a little shakeout before they really explode again.

 

by Hulk
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:10
#278992

Up 5 bucks @ 3:05. A buck a minute, thats all I ask!

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:14
#278996

Whoa there Hulk!  Some of us are trying to figure out how to scrap together enough Fun Bux for another order.  The price is totally moving in the wrong direction for me!

by Hulk
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:27
#279008

Relax Shameful, the fact that I own it implies you have nothing to worry about!

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:38
#279033

Just messin with you.  I'm in the goldbug camp that prays for lower prices.  I need this to stay under control till Jan when my parents are looking at retiring and liquidating their 401ks.  My mom of all people wants to go 70% into gold.  So I cheer-lead for low prices even though I know it does nothing, just sending out the vibe for it :)

by Waterfallsparkles
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:21
#278843

Government would probably confiscate all private Gold to make up the Deficit.  Just like they did before.

Gold is a part of the Fractional Reserve system anyway.  Get rid of Fractional Reserve and Gold will be worth nothing.

What Country is it that People are buying Garlic as an Inflation hedge?

by theworldisnotenough
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:33
#278851

Wasn't there an exemption of foreign gold coins? Wait I'll not be lazy and look it up. <a href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102">Here</a>.

 

Section 2

(c) Gold coin and bullion earmarked or held in trust for a recognized foreign Government or foreign central bank or the Bank for International Settlements.

It does not exactly provide an exemption for say owning Maple Leafs or Philharmonics.

 

 

by Rusty_Shackleford
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:34
#278916

"Gold is a part of the Fractional Reserve system anyway."

 

Please explain.

 

Because, as far as I can tell, Gold plays NO role in our current Fractional reserve monetary system whatsoever.

The ONLY thing that would force the FedGov to try and "seize" the citizen's gold would be if they (FedGov) were required to make payments in gold to it's creditors. 

 

Now think about that for a minute.  If the FedGov was being forced to make payment in gold, that would, of course, mean that the US DOLLAR was no longer being accepted.

 

If the US dollar was no longer being accepted, THERE IS NO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ANYMORE.

 

If anyone would like to argue with that, answer me this; "What would the FedGov be using to pay all of the policemen and soldiers who will risk their lives to try and "seize" other citizen's gold.

 

If the day ever comes that the US FedGov is planning to "seize" gold again, you will know we are at the very end of things.

 

In 1933, the US seized gold because gold was money, and it needed more of it.

If the US does it now, it is an admission that the US Dollar is not money.

by Carl Marks
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:25
#278844

The goldsmiths in Florence invented fractional reserve banking in the middle ages when they realized that most of the gold they stored for others could be leased (loaned) out because most deposits of gold just sat in the vaults. GLD and SLV are running the same game. Everything is just peachy as long as they never have to deliver all the gold and silver they've promised. Try CEF and SGOL. They take delivery of gold and silver in allocated accounts.

by Belrev
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:28
#278847

My take on this is that Gold is overvalued. The only way to prop up the prices is to spread rumors that there is a price suppression going on. Whenever gold price dips there is not shortage of fools rushing to "buy on the dips". When gold prices plunge whether in a deflationary bust or due to some news items, the fools will be left holding their high priced gold. After it stays low for a few years if not decades, the fools will capitulate or sell because they need cash. The big boys will pick up the metal on the cheap again. This is a perpetual cycle.

 

Now, does anyone think that this GATA organization is really just set up by some enthusiats and is allowed to attend hearings and ask questions? I bet the Rothchild's will get back into the market when all this shit blows over and times are quiet again. Do you think that you are smarter than the big R's. This whole spectacle has been allowed to run with the approval of the same people trying to "mainpulate" the market.

 

 

by theworldisnotenough
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:41
#278859

Wouldn't ETFs have the opposite effect? Increasing or at least satisfying demand for gold and silver without having the actual gold and silver?

by Barmaher
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:57
#278978

Bingo.  GLD and SLV if you think about it are the most brilliant inventions of the metals manipulators.  If everybody who thought they'd bought gold or silver with those ETF's actually bought physical or allocated gold or silver where do you think the prices would be today?

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:48
#279046

Agreed. ETFs should read, WTF!

by cognitis
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:50
#278865

Eric Sprott seemed shrill in the video posted here recently, and his anxiety should be expected: GC Open Interest has been flat for over four months and it only closes over $1120 on short-covering rallies. As I posted recently, would any of the widely-known Whales sell even just a minute part of their unimaginably great gold holdings, imprudent and stupid guys like Sprott should be wiped out almost overnight.

by Yardfarmer
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:09
#278884

are these some of the other stupid and imprudent guys you're exposing here

.Two big name hedge funds have recently set their sights on the same investment. John Paulson's firm Paulson & Co and George Soros' hedge fund firm Soros Fund Management are set to purchase shares of NovaGold Resources (NG) in separate offerings by the company.

This morning (March 8th), NovaGold announced that it is proposing to issue 16,636,364 shares at a price of $5.50 to Quantum Partners, Ltd., an investment fund ran by Soros Fund Management. This comes at a substantial discount to current prices as NG currently trades around $6.48. The purchase would mean Soros' hedge fund is buying $75 million worth of NG shares. The company said they planned to use the net proceeds to fund exploration and development and for general corporate purposes (including possible future acquisitions). This offering is expected to close on March 11th. In addition to this position, we recently took a look at the rest of Soros' equity portfolio.

Prior to Soros' offering, NovaGold announced on March 4th that it is proposing to issue 18,181,818 shares priced at $5.50 to John Paulson's hedge funds. This means Paulson would have nearly a $100 million stake in the company. NovaGold's offering for Paulson is expected to close on March 9th. The press release noted that Paulson acquired shares for several investment funds. We would assume that the majority of these shares though would go into his new gold fund as the strategy for that venture has been to acquire equity stakes in gold miners. We've previously taken a look at Paulson's equity portfolio as well for those interested.

Read more: http://www.marketfolly.com/2010/03/paulson-soros-to-buy-novagold-resources.html#ixzz0jVHmcENs

by cognitis
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:21
#278897

Rustic, learn to read: Paulson is The Whale to which I referred in this post and the same I named in a prior post. If Paulson start to sell even just .1% of his singularly great gold hoard, imprudent and stupid guys who allocate over 75% of their fund to a single asset class would get erased. Get it yet? Paulson hasn't added a single ETF share for over a full year and gold hasn't held a rally over 1120 for over four months. If Sprott isn't anxious about his imprudently great gold holdings, then he is an idiot.

by pidge
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:41
#278957

gold is a game of chess, not checkers.  understand?

by harveywalbinger
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 21:14
#279237

Fantastic analogy!  

by Yardfarmer
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:03
#278963

what d'ya have agin' us plebeeuns com' in from tha cuntry. souns like ya bitter clamp on thet ole blood presshur cuff, take a cuple deep breths and double up on yer warfarin afore ya bust a vessel wide open! speakin' a blud, ya might wanna stock up on plasma too cuz Paulson and Soros and thems bankin' friens have a mind to bleed youse an the rest of the syphylised Westarn wurld dry, one drap at a time. an the way theys gonna do it is with gold. yup, gold. why d'ya think theys all a pilin' inta gold like a herd a hawgs at the sloppin' trough!? jus that matter of them OTC d'rivaitves or what'er ya call 'em. gold is the gowin' be th'only way theys gonna cullect on them thar trillions 'pon trillions a bets comin' ta them. y'all might c'nsider thet ya might jes well be ontha wrong side o' this hear trade e'en tho yer quite smart otherwise. us cuntry folk may be nun too book lurned but we  know a pig in a poke when weez see 'un. b'the way i am lurnin readin' an sum writin' too!

by mrgneiss
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 21:15
#279238

Cognitits, why are you, someone who had been a member for less than twenty days, insulting other members and spreading obvious disinformation about Paulson's dedication to gold?  Why did you omit to mention that in addition to his questionable GLD holdings, Paulson is also the number one shareholder in one of the biggest gold companies in the world, Anglo Ashanti at 12%.  Does that sound like a weak comittment to gold?

Who are you anyway?  Are you Jon Nadler naysayer?  Are worried that the hundreds or thousands of clients of Kitco's unallocated gold accounts will demand physical?  Would that be detrimental to Kitco? 

If you own unallocated precious metals you own paper and nothing else.

Idiot

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:38
#279331

InCognitus.

by Sabremesh
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:58
#279125

Sprott holds only physical and has nothing to fear from your "paper whales" selling unimaginably large amounts...of paper. A paper avalanche would just usher in the great disconnect between the price of physical gold and its moribund paper cousin. Bring it on.

by Double down
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:39
#279167

This is a simulacra.  The physical market has the same form and substance as the paper market.  The distinguishing attribute is simply a different name.  This is some fine print! 

The assumed connection between the two is being tested for credibility.  This is catastrophic, as the run on inventory does not care about the (paraphrased) Clinton retort "It depends on what you mean by "is"?  With gold it is even more than it is with with money as Being is possession.

If someone "took down" AIG knowing that the Fed would bail them out, why would not someone like to exploit the risk in the gold market?

I do not care where the gold price goes, my physical ownership is a portfolio insurance like none other.  I am sure of this though, that if the gold price goes down in the face of physical delivery difficulties I am changing my tinfoil hat to a crash helmet.             

 

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:27
#278904

Which tin foil hat did you take out of the cupboard today?

by merehuman
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:11
#279139

you have a wonderful imagination. Write fiction, less need for research.

Belref this comment is for you.

by 7buy7
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:44
#278860

Latest Gata website posting

entitled
"It's admitted to the CFTC: London gold market is a Ponzi scheme"

http://www.gata.org/node/8478
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wIMpe9SjfQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9bU0r6JP4s

by boiow
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:19
#278891

so what is the real price of gold then. you can't use the comex price.

 what will happen when the comex price crashes. will people panic and sell there physical too.

the mind boggles

by Johnny Dangereaux
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:20
#279006

They sell their paper gold there, actually.

by Sudden Debt
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:19
#278894

Actually, the price of gold will crash because of it.

If you bought something that doesn't exist. What do you do? YOU TRY TO SELL IT AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!! DUMP IT!!!

 

And most investors will do this, putting the gold price in the area of 200$

 

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:31
#278911

You are partially correct.  The price of paper gold will plummet as people sell the empty paper promises for metal that cannot be delivered.  The price of actual physical metal will spike assuming that there is any intention of them trying to cover.  Even if there is not the price of physical will spike on fear.

by Rusty_Shackleford
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:40
#278922

Bingo.

 

Imagine this:

Price of 1 oz gold on Comex: $.25
Price of 1 oz AE gold coin delivered to you: $12,000.00

 

by Jim B
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 09:36
#279604

+1

Well said

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:54
#279054

Yahtzee!

Gold values currencies, not the other way around.

by Vendetta
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:22
#278899

Oh...now I get it.  The paper market for gold is so huge that the paper, if printed out, would weigh as much as the physical gold would weigh if they actually had the physical gold.  Therefore the paper market is a "physical" market.

I have to say Jeff Christian almost seemed human, close but not quite.  I don't think his bosses are going to be particularly pleased with his public explanation.  They can't even bullshit the bullshit very well.

by Popo
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:25
#278903

To play devil's advocate... these games are not new, and the price has not gone exponential. 

 

 

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:28
#278906

Sweet!  Fractional reserves in bullion banking too!  100 to 1 leverage...you know it doesn't sound like so much anymore.  There was a time that 100 to 1 leverage would have shocked me.  Now it just seems like industry standard.  "For every $1 in assets we loan out $1,000,000" Reserves are for cowards and people without political connections.

Now if this is true and there is a gold run then it will be apocalyptic.  And you will have a host of unsecured creditors turn extra judicial means for payback, after all since unsecured it means no one gets paid except for the big boys.  I got to imagine that if a SA drug lord or Russian oligarch got burn they could call some guys to go talk to some people.  Probably with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch.

by sharonsj
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:33
#278914

I don't understand how an investor cannot know that he is buying a piece of paper and not the actual gold.  Even I, who doesn't understand a lot of these market games, know that.  If I want gold and silver, I'll go to a flea market and buy the actual jewelry.  And I'll get gold for a lot less than the going rate.  BTW, how is $1100 an oz. cheap?

by Vendetta
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:00
#278939

it is 'cheap' relative to the quantity of dollars printed up.  Like relative to this nice little chart provided courtesy of the fed:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BASE

 

by carbonmutant
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 23:42
#278918

Well if it's not in the bank then the only place to get it is from the miners...

Placerville sure was crowded this weekend...

by mbasham
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:37
#278919

well it really all depends, if as this 'gold authority' says, there are holders of gold who purport to lay claim in 100 times how much actual physical gold is known to exist, there are two possibilities. One, many of these demand delivery at nearly the same time and the gold price sky rockets, bankrupting all those who are short including those claimed to be short to hedge selling something else (i agree with TD as to this being unclear). The second possibility is that gold is so 'over owned' that any minor selling by this oversized pool of longs would result in a collapse of the gold price. This would permanently impoverish gold longs, who are legion at the moment, and vastly enrich the shorts. Based on the connections that these shorts have to the regulatory and governing class, it is very likely that the shorts will win based on that, not on free market principles.

by SWRichmond
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:04
#278940

The second possibility is that gold is so 'over owned' that any minor selling by this oversized pool of longs would result in a collapse of the gold price.

Rather, I suspect we would see a complete and dramatic disconnect of the paper and physical gold markets.  Physical gold isn't over owned.  Paper gold undoubtedly is, on a relative basis.

by Yardfarmer
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:28
#279002

           COT Gold

           long     short

funds-73,785   212,488

swaps-43,894  145,912

commercial -165,927  9,152

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:02
#279066

Gold over-owned? By whom? On what basis? What report shows gold over-owned? I'm lost.

by Sabremesh
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:11
#279136

He means that multiple parties have competing (and therefore worthless) paper claims on the same physical gold.

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 20:24
#279200

OH DEAR!

by mbasham
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:38
#278920

well it really all depends, if as this 'gold authority' says, there are holders of gold who purport to lay claim to 100 times how much actual physical gold is known to exist, there are two possibilities. One, many of these demand delivery at nearly the same time and the gold price sky rockets, bankrupting all those who are short including those claimed to be short to hedge selling something else (i agree with TD as to this being unclear). The second possibility is that gold is so 'over owned' that any minor selling by this oversized pool of longs would result in a collapse of the gold price. This would permanently impoverish gold longs, who are legion at the moment, and vastly enrich the shorts. Based on the connections that these shorts have to the regulatory and governing class, it is very likely that the shorts will win based on that, not on free market principles.

by kennard
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:57
#278935

net global long gold postions = global gold inventory

like the derivative markets, it all nets to zero

I don't see what the problem is

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:10
#279077

What are the derivatives tied to? As Christen says, all sorts of things.

G=G.

G=G-2QQQ+1IOU/GLD+10 pork belly contracts does not = G.(Au)

Net global long positions = wishful thinking.

Got gold?

by jaap
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:03
#278942

Yes, but who will buy your paper? Maybe, maybe only real gold will be accepted in a ransaction.

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:12
#279082

Typo or not....ransaction. Lovin it.

by gilligan
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 07:55
#279519

+1  Classic!

 

rans·ac·tion (rn-skshn)
n.
1. The act of ransacking or the fact of being ransacked.
2. Something ransacted, especially a business agreement or exchange.
3. The transfer of wealth from the American Public (see entry: sheeple) to TPTB.

by Sudden Debt
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:41
#278956

I was also wondering. Who profits the most from a crashing gold price?

The Fed.

Who are the best manipulators?

The Fed

Who pulls of economic shit, where almost everybody had a bet against it?

The Fed

 

Now give me also one reason why the price wouldn't go down.

Also, I get mailings about buying physical gold like never before! Starting from 2500€ you don't pay shipping fees.

http://www.koopgoud.nl/index.php?osCsid=g1vh6ls0d9fa5mc09idtkfiv11

Now if it would be a problem to get physical gold, why are they selling it so easy?

Because the paper price and physical price will never disconnect.

I say, short gold now, and if it crashes, buy the physical when it's at 200$

If it does, I'll buy a few pounds just for the decorative aspect in my vault.

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:15
#279085

Go ahead, punk........ Make that trade!

by Yardfarmer
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:43
#279108

me thinks Master Bates done got himself a new handle w/avatar.

by merehuman
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:23
#279150

it costs a minimum of 500.00 to mine , melt and coin it.

So 200 .00 is a pipe dream from the git go. Many powerful folk have it and would be VERY pissed.

by godzila
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:42
#278958

well I was under the impressions this was basically public knowledge ?!

by RobotTrader
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:49
#278966

Gold $1,114 (per NetDania)

EUR/USD $1.348

These Finviz quotes will start updating soon.

by Hulk
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:17
#278998

Go baby, go baby, go baby, Go!

Daddy wants to retire!

by Mr Lennon Hendrix
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:03
#279290

Soon buddy, very soon!

by SWRichmond
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:04
#279074

After a revelation like this, the smack will be in big time.  Remember what happened to gold when GATA had its ad published?

by Return2Sanity
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:02
#278984

You know I've had a little suspicion for a while now that China might be secretly behind the massive gold shorts. It's their “golden parachute” out of the fiat mess. If they're using shorts to hold the price down, they can quietly buy up the real deal at bargain prices. So their shorts would not be naked, technically speaking, since China has the means to deliver, but they will never do so. If they find themselves needing to bail out of dollars fast, they'll just cover their shorts with the last of their dollar reserves, and be done with the old reserve currency once and for all, while the price of gold goes to the moon. Then we'll find out how much they've really got in their vaults. Of course, I have no evidence on this, but it's certainly what I would do if I were China and wanted some protection against the fiat monster. Meanwhile, the US Treasury thinks the bullion banks are doing a fantastic job on price control.

by Yardfarmer
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:38
#279035

The short positions now held by Chase came with interesting baggage which surfaced last year when the Chinese threatened to walk away from their derivative obligations contracted with the large U.S. investment banks. Apparently the silver positions were accompanied by equally massive offsetting OTC derivatives contracts possessed by Chinese state owned investment funds which provided AIG with the backing to carry on its shenanigans of selling of its short silver paper contracts on the Comex. With these derivative contracts passing through Bear Stearns, JPMC became the world's largest counterparty with an extraordinary derivative exposure whose notional value has been estimated at $80 to $90 trillion as opposed to $1.66 trillion in assets. Ted Butler has even gone so far as to suggest that these Chinese OTC derivative positions pose a threat to national security.

by Johnny Dangereaux
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:15
#278999

I like this guy. Sign up for his newsletter.

Click on the JFK window.....Jack's secret society speech will play.....very moving....maybe TD would post a link to it? It IS what we are all fighting against, that's for sure.

http://www.runtogold.com/

It's not a secret that futures trade in huge multiples to physical....that's why you have physical delivery, and price convergence of cash and futures going into expiration....usually.

GLD and SLV are so encumbered that they can't be trusted....take delivery...it's that simple.

 

 

by Mr Lennon Hendrix
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 12:46
#279811

Best presidential speech ever.  My Dad thought he was possibly talking about the USSR, but I pointed out that Jack could have said simply, the USSR instead of "Sectret Societies".  Bobby Kennedy, I mean Jack Kennedy, was the best President ever!  Well, of recent anyway.

by monmick
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:19
#279005

Jeffrey Christian is full of shit; I think that is pretty obvious...

 

by Johnny Dangereaux
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:25
#279014

Sounds like his wife is a real hoot too!

by glenlloyd
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:34
#279029

the goal of the first gold siezure was to revalue the currency, because there was a gold standard. Now however, there's no link between the dollar and gold so they don't need take your gold in order to inflate successfully. that doesn't mean they won't take for their own coffers.

gold is not part of the fractional reserve system, there's no longer a tie between the dollar and gold. the dollar isn't backed by anything other than faith. gold exists as a seperate means of monetary exchange. the reason the govt doesn't like gold is that it doesn't represent a debt or obligation and it has no counterparty risk...if you hold it in physical form. gold etfs are not the same as physical, they have counterparty risk.

by TheGoodDoctor
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 20:13
#279191

Well, if gold and silver went high enough I am sure that would create a lot of tax revenues for them. Enough to bail their ass out on all the debt - maybe.

by mcarthur
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:50
#279051

GATA have got to be the biggest pack of fools I have seen.  Dredging up thirty year old tidbits as evidence of market manipulation is pretty rich.  All you GLD holders should sell and demand physical.  Then we will settle this debate.  Gold is nice to look at but so is a good sunset.

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:45
#279098

Socrates you ain't.

by Mr Lennon Hendrix
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 21:02
#279230

YES!  That was brilliant!  Especially considering that gold only comes from supernovas!  Ok, but try to put the sun in your hand...all you need is a gold coin!  HOT FIRE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9lg6HqJeY0&feature=related

by Fast is Fine Bu...
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:12
#279080

I was thinking of using my USD as wallpaper in my kids room or maybe toilet paper in the bathroom.

Throw in a couple of Treasury notes to break it up.

 

 

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:39
#279105

The CFTC's Bank Participation Reports, clearly show CONCETRATION of short holdings in the hands of one or possibly two banks. [That's a clue, Gensler]

That the CFTC needs a public hearing to figure out that there is manipulation in the markets (by the shorts), and whose rules set position limits on the longs only, is laughable.

Regulators!!?

Pig's ass.

Maybe Gensler is playing Devil's Advocate. If so I'll change my opinion. Till then.... pig's ass.

by goldenboy
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:47
#279115

The price of real-deal-hold-in-the-hand gold is going to moonshoot.....you can say what you want, you can kick yourself as hard as you need for buying paper promises/lies, but those who stocked up on the physical have always been aware of all the implications of the paper-deceit, this Ponzi farce, and now they are set to reap the reward for their commitment and patience. A reward well-earned indeed, for the Bankers have hit them with extreme prejudice as they sought to pickpocket them.

by RobotTrader
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:52
#279121

Gap up in gold has been closed.

Looks like a total non-event.

The only reason it gapped up was because the Euro also gapped up.

Looks like Murphy comes up empty handed again.  Back to the bottle.

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 20:51
#279222

Maybe next time will be the one.

Carry on.

by Hulk
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 21:39
#279258

Back to work. Gather the Hens eggs and hit the bottle

by Mr Lennon Hendrix
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:36
#279329

Wow!  He looks like he spent all weekend on a "detox".

by Double down
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:00
#279126

For once it IS the short sellers!  

by trav7777
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:04
#279130

Fuck gold.

I prefer to store my wealth in the paper notes of bankrupt States and in the form of negative interest rate loans to insolvent institutions.

by Shameful
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:11
#279138

rotflol okay thank you for that!  Broke out laughing over here :)  Storing wealth like a real man!

by RobotTrader
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:10
#279137

Gold now red.

The Cartel is attacking with a vengeance.

Oh well, that was fun for awhile.

by Al Gorerhythm
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 20:31
#279205

Now that's a gold finger.

by Jim in MN
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 21:53
#279275

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
- Sun Tzu

by Mr Lennon Hendrix
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:09
#279296

Holy Snookums China!  WTF?!?!?!

Also, anybody like what Max is saying about "virtual currentseas"?  He is sort of blowing my theses about the IMF/World Bank prescribing loans to the Nation States of the world, but I still like it.  He is a crazy and brilliant man!

http://ia331224.us.archive.org/2/items/MaxKeiserRadio-TheTruthAboutMarke...

by Mr Lennon Hendrix
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:34
#279326

Face Book...Bofa-met...water wings?  what you think?  YALE would love this!

by chindit13
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 23:21
#279361

Pardon me for asking a question that seems obvious---and I apologize beforehand if I stop someone from going down to the local Ferrari dealer and using a lemon zester to flake off enough soon-to-be-valued-near-infinity gold to drive home in a 612 Scagliatti---but if this is all accurate why hasn't some large fund forced the LBMA to drop its towel and expose itself?

Please don't respond by saying that Paulson, Tudor, Soros, Bacon et al are all in on the conspiracy.  A hundred to one return on investment would break just about any bond of cooperation.  Surely an Eric Sprott, or the collective goldowners of ZH could muster up enough to buy LBMA contracts and demand delivery.  If the contract (still) stipulates that physical delivery is an option of the contract long, then there is no risk.  Either the LBMA delivers the physical gold, or they are in default thus obviating the need for the buyer to settle.

If that doesn't wipe out the exchange, do it again.  And again.  And again until it either becomes clear they cannot deliver, or they can deliver.  Conspiracy proven, or disproven.  Otherwise, it's all just a parlor game of conjecture.

by Shameful
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 01:15
#279400

This is a great question!  My only thoughts are 1. They don't know about how leveraged they are or 2. This may have been attempted a few times and they were always able to make delivery (maybe from reserves or central bank or whatever).

Personally I don't know anyone would not take possession.  Mainly because when I see unallocated = unsecured creditor I get a little worried.  I know might have to pay storage fee elsewhere, but being an unsecured creditor on an asset that should be yours outright sets alarm bells off for me.

by fUny1
on Sun, 03/28/2010 - 23:59
#279391

Isn't this how the fractionally levered non reserved Gold note toting Goldsmiths from years past got in burn at the stake trouble in the first place anyway?

Evelyn Rothschild's daughter is supposedly worth only about 450 million Euros or something. Her daddy is concerned that's she's fallen for an ex junkie turned struggling script writer/director.

The World we are living in today is an absurdity right out of the French Children's Book "Le Petit Prince" with the 500 Million thin air unitarian busy ness man played by non other that Goldman Sach's Cheri"get your sweet ass off the conference room"table CEO.

With 85 Broads street-walkers in tow, he's going to need all the thin air units he can get.

http://funy1.blogspot.com/2010/03/is-this-governments-rico-racket-entry....

 

by delacroix
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 05:13
#279481

by CPJ13
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 09:43
#279614

Can someone give me an opinion on why a Long SGOL position offset with an equal Short GLD position wouldn't be an interesting trade right now? Would GLD necessarily crash if there was ever actually a rush to deliver? Or would the price rise 100x (theoretically)? Your net economic exposure to the price movements of Gould would be virtually zero, UNLESS the physical price and paper price diverge. Obviously, if GLD goes to the moon to try and make up the difference instead of crashes, one is screwed. Thoughts?

by Littlehedger
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 15:19
#279941

I as just curious if anybody caught the severe error by Brian Kelly, president of Kanundrum Capital, on CNBC...with about 5 minutes 'til the close today...he clearly says "India, last year imported 4.8 MILLION TONNES, this year they are looking to import about 30 MILLION TONNES".

Did this guy skip his metrics and/or conversion classes in school, or what?

by snakeboat
on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 23:46
#280269

This game has yet to begin.  Anyone watch Senor B?  He's been overcome by his myths.  Strange things afoot down to the Circle K...

by Joe Sixpack
on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 18:45
#281131

Gamma on Market-Ticker.org makes this comment. If true, why would gold be different?:

http://tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?post=132987&findnew#new

"

Gamma
Posts: 1924
Incept: 2008-01-20

Northern CA IMO this is all a bunch of hot air.

Go to the soybean, wheat, or pork belly markets. You know, markets which have no Federal Reserve/fractional reserve banking/Bilderburger/end of the world/one world conspiracy aspectry to them. No cachet at all, just a dumb stupid commodity. A person who eats bread or cereal has essentially no use for raw red wheat, especially in multi-hundred pound lots. Or a thousand bushels of freshly-harveted soybeans. A cereal maker, a bread maker, a grower, these folks have the natural interest in the markets they play in. (No aspersion is being cast on speculators. None, zero)

Go look and see how many of those contracts are actually delivered and how many are rolled over, cashed out, liquidated, or offset. Answer: Less than 1%.

Now these markets are incredibly less sexy than gold and silver. So in gold and silver, we would expect much more speculative interest. So when we are initially alarmed at an alleged 170:1 ratio of paper positions vs deliverable metals, is it so blazingly out of whack?

Furthermore, in gold and silver, we have miners amounting to 90% of annual world production always selling some percentage of their production forward to meet ordinary business expenses. We have stock longs hedging with futures shorts. We have bondholders on the miners hedging against mine cave ins and debt defaults with futures shorts. We have those who borrow from bullion banks to sell the metal, speculate with the proceeds, and seek to buy back their obligations on dips, which definitely happen quite a lot. We have all manner of natural market activities and financial market activities exclusive of normal speculation which generate enormous, longlasting, indeed perpetual short positions which massively outweight the apparent long interest in the market. And you go look at the COT and that's exactly what you see.

All I can say is that I have followed the gold and silver markets for ten or so years, since 1999. That does not make me an expert or even a highly educated egghead. I am familiar with the writings of Dave Morgan and Ted Butler and Mark Chapman and I remember JPM allegedly being twice their market capitalization underwater from their underwater hedges on Barrick and all this shit for the last decade hasn't produced anything like the market dislocations these guys claim is right arouund the corner. That doesn't mean it will never happen. As a famous market commentator once said "It might go rocketing higher!!" LOL

I agree with the concept that the last ones to the party, the numbnut ETF holders, are overwhelimngly likely to be hosed in any serious market dislocation. But holding your breath waiting for such a dislocation is likely to result in little more than a brain aneurism.

by hamurobby
on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 23:13
#281340

Chindit, if you blow up the gold/silver markets, any fiat money you have will be instantly devalued. If you are loaded with fiat, such as China or any other country, you are already making big profits for nothing, and the only outcome from a blow up in fiat is anarchy. So I doubt anyone who has the cash wants to blow it up. The dying of fiat currency will revalue metals to their relative value by default. As far as etf owners, the panic once people find out they really are not getting a package with gold in it, but a notice their position was closed at such and such price, and an electronic payment made into their account, will be all they will see. The comparison of gold being driven to the ground by selling paper etfs (permanently) is absurd, gold is not stocks, and will not happen. Now the lawsuits may be monumental, but there will be nothing to sue by then.

When trading commodities, there are always many many many many multiples of both sides of the trade verus actual delivery of the underlying commodity of all forms, for the contract month. This why it is impossible to "prove" manipulation, even with signaled trades etc. The fact is, all the commodity markets trading gold around the world, are manipulated successfully by the big currency holders of the world (government and banks). Right now if they dropped the prices of precious metals in the face of currency problems, would PROVE they are manipulating the markets, so just keeping it to relative control looks much more orderly, and prevents panic and mass speculation, debasing currency. In fact, it is actually good for the currencies, by creating inflation without showing it directly.

I would love to see gold drop, it would give more people the chance to buy physical, which would drive up prices again (demand). I believe we are in a third consolidation phase of the gold market, and their is no good news to save fiat currency on the horizon for the long run, or maybe I missed something? The lack of CONfidence in fiat, will eventually destroy what we know as money, it always has.

by hamurobby
on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 23:28
#281348

Something to think about, we compare shoes houses and hogs to real money (metals), but thats not a fair comparison.  What if fiat hyperinflated in mere days to infinity, and the only "money" left was gold and silver, how would it value to assets then? Now thats some big numbers right there. You cant eat gold right? and why do banks keep it in vaults?.

by GetZeeGold
on Fri, 04/02/2010 - 04:43
#284044

It was theft pure and simple.

It's all about PUBLIC gold into PRIVATE hands.

GS and Rubin shorted gold into the ground. Then Brown announced the sales publicly...grinding it even farther into the ground.

Around that time-frame GS went public and took the money and bought the gold at insane record low prices.

Thanks for the gumball......it was just that easy.

 

 

by GetZeeGold
on Fri, 04/02/2010 - 05:46
#284051

I suppose that comment will get deleted as well...but I just told you what happened.

It's not that complicated....that's what happened.

Is it any surprise that almost every high position in the US gov is being run by former GS employees?

Get zee gold bitches.....they are way ahead of you.

 

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