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The Founding Fathers Would Be Proud of the People of Egypt ... And Disgusted With the People of America
America's founding fathers stood up for their freedom, winning it from the British (with the help of the French).
The
Egyptian people have stood up for their freedom, winning it from the
Mubarak dictatorship (with the help of the army, which refused to fire a
shot at the people, and may even have helped convince Mubarak to leave.
See this and this).
The
Egyptian people found their courage even when Mubarak's thugs flew
fighter jets low over their heads, beat and murdered protesters, and
otherwise threatened violence.
But the American people today have been cowed into passivity by an irrational fear of terrorism, laziness and mindlessness.
Comparisons
But obviously, the American government is nothing like the Egyptian dictatorship, right?
Let's compare:
- There is a stunning amount of inequality in Egypt. But America is even worse
- Mubarak stole billions from his people, while the American oligarchs may have stolen trillions. See this, this, this and this
- Egypt have been living under a state of emergency for 30 years. But Americans have been living under a continuous state of emergency for 10 years straight
- Mubarak was supported by the military. But the military -industrial complex has taken over America
as well (moreover, there is a tradition in countries like Turkey for
the military to ensure that religious fanatics do not take over the
country)
- Mubarak ignored the wishes of his people. But the American government hasn't been listening to it's people either. For example, a 2010 Rasmussen poll found
that "just 21% of voters nationwide believe that the federal government
enjoys the consent of the governed". A 2010 Gallup poll determined
that nearly half of all Americans believe "the Federal government poses
an immediate threat to the rights and freedoms of ordinary citizens".
Poll after poll shows that "both national parties are deeply unpopular with an electorate looking for something new and different". Polls reveal
that 82% of all Americans wanted Wall Street to be reined in in a
substantial and meaningful manner, and yet nothing has really changed,
and the government has let Wall Street have it's way on all the
important issues. Polls find that Americans want the big financial
players who acted with fraud to be punished, and yet the government has let all of the big fish off the hook. And the government has ignored many other desires of the American people, including investigations into torture and spying on Americans, impeaching George W. Bush if he lied about Iraqi WMDs (which he did)
- Mubarak repressed his people and stifled dissent. Bush and Obama have haven't been all that protective of liberty either
- Mubarak murdered and tortured people without following the rule of law. America hasn't been wholly saintly in this regard over the last 10 years either (and see this)
I'm not saying that America is Egypt. I am saying that America today has a lot
of problems also. (And if you think those problems started on 9/11,
remember that virtually all of the current domestic and foreign policies
were already in place or planned before 9/11.)
But unlike the Egyptian people, Americans have become scared of their own shadow. We have forgotten that courage and hope are choices
- which do not have to come from John Wayne levels of testosterone, but
can simply arise from loving something enough to want to protect it.
How Did We Turn Into the Oppressor?
England oppressed America. We were the downtrodden who broke free. But now, America has helped to repress the Egyptian people (and see this and this).
How did we get on the wrong side of history?
The Egyptian People Have Changed the World
Minister Jim Wallis writes
in an open letter to the Egyptian protesters today entitled "The
Egyptian People Have Changed the World -- It's Their Turn to Lead":
You have changed the world.
***
Remember,
the United States was not talking about democracy in Egypt, not
advocating it, not saying a transition is necessary and urgent, UNTIL
you risked your security, safety and lives for the sake of democracy.
You changed the conversation, and the conversation would be the same as
it has been for decades if you hadn't done what you did. Your
generational peers are now watching what you are doing in countries
across the Arab world, and beyond. This is the moment for you and for
us.
***
You
represent a new generation, a new leadership, and a new hope for the
possibility of real democracy. Keep leading. My government, which still
calls itself the beacon of freedom, has sacrificed democracy in your
region of the world (and many other places) for American "interests." And
our foreign policy around the globe has put our interests before our
principles. But they are not really the interests of the American
people, but of oil companies, big banks and corporations, and rich and
powerful people. Their interest in stability is very different from ours in democracy. So
don't be fooled, don't listen to the so-called "wise" voices that have
been part of the old reality and want to now thank you for your
service to democracy, but are offering to take it from here.
Don't
let them. Keep demanding democracy -- real democracy. Because, for the
rest of us, democracy is the best defense of our "interests," and the
best path to genuine "stability." And, for our part, we will do our
best to stand with you. That will likely take sacrifice from all of us,
because real change always does.
The Founding Fathers would be proud of the Egyptian people, just as they supported the French revolution. They would be disgusted at the spineless sheep that the American people have become.
Note:
I love America and have lived here all my life. I criticize my country
because I want to save her from the self-destructive, anti-American
path that Bush and Obama have put us on. Just as the Egyptian people
felt a need to speak out, so do I.
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
-Thomas Jefferson
"Patriotism
means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the
president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in
which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him
insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to
oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he
fails in his duty to stand by the country."
– Teddy Roosevelt
"To
announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American
public."
– Teddy Roosevelt
"This
country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it.
Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can
exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their
revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it."
- Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural
"These
economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the
institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek
to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions
requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide
behind the flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget
what the flag and the Constitution stand for."
- Franklin Roosevelt
"Those who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Ben Franklin
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They believed in reason and liberty for men? Sentimentalism. Facts point at the opposite. A number of them owned slaves for example.
US citizens have troubles with self perception, they are often unable to perceive themselves or their ascendants outside their ideology pre conceived pictures.
The US benefited from two features Egypt wont have:
Good luck to the Egyptians to find that. It will matter much more than having so called enlightened elite who can even be depicted accurately 225 years after.
The Royal Proclamation of 1763 stops the seizure of Indian lands by speculators from the Thirteen Colonies and establishes a frontier, essentially the Appalachian Mountains, to the west of which vast tracts of land are to be preserved in perpetuity where Indian nations will be able to carry on their traditional way of life.
Additionally, the proclamation reserves to the Crown the exclusive right to purchase land from native Americans.
Even after the frontier is established, land speculators, slave-owner George Washington, the wealthiest man in the American colonies most prominent among them, arrange to “hunt out and mark” Indian land beyond the frontier to be seized as soon as the Royal Proclamation and treaties can be safely ignored.
Washington who, generations of American children have, with the fabricated story of the cherry tree, been indoctrinated to believe, "cannot tell a lie", writes to his criminal co-conspirator, Captain William Crawford, that their “scheme must be snugly carried on by you under the pretence of hunting other game.”
Washington was only one of many wealthy land speculators engaged in laying the groundwork for the theft of Indian lands in violation of the law and of legally-binding treaties.
His much-propagandized fellow slave-owner Benjamin Franklin was the major promoter behind the Walpole, later the Vandalia, Company, a group of Philadelphia land speculators who had their eyes on ten million acres of Indian land protected by the Proclamation.
Other groups of speculators were anxious to steal Indian land in “Charlotiana” (most of Illinois and Wisconsin), in Kentucky and Tennessee. Plans were also underway to steal almost all of Michigan.
[Washington who, generations of American children have, with the fabricated story of the cherry tree, been indoctrinated to believe, "cannot tell a lie"...]---DavidPierre
The leftist socialists never fail to amaze me, their efforts to discredit the great work of great men and women of the American Experiment.
Those of us who are humbled and grateful for the great work of our Founders have never ignored or denied the fallibility of these men and women.
And, I am never disappointed when reminded our detractors cannot identify our Founding Fathers beyond those pictured on dollar bills.
The much propagandized first president, George Washington, was an elitist snob who considered ordinary Americans no better than cattle. He called the white citizens of the new country over which he lorded “the grazing multitude”. Washington was a slave owner and a land speculator.
The great freedom lover owned about two hundred and fifty slaves, dressed them in rags, auctioned off their children for yet more cash, of which he could never, apparently, acquire enough, and had them viciously whipped for “disobedience”. Among Washington’s many business "enterprises" was the construction of a canal through the Great Dismal Swamp in the Carolinas. The canal was hand-dug by slaves through steaming, mosquito-infested swamp.
The slaves were worked to death in appalling conditions so that Washington, already the wealthiest man in the United States, could grow even richer.
Aside from his desire to maintain slavery, Washington, as a leading land speculator, was particularly anxious to gain control of the government because the British had signed a treaty with the Cherokee Nation and other Indian nations which prevented him stealing their ancestral land for profit.
As President, Washington, in his fervor to steal the maximum possible amount of Indian land, was also a mass murderer of considerable accomplishment; the country's leading early practitioner of the ethnic cleansing of native Americans. According to Washington, native Americans were "wolves and beasts" who deserved nothing from the whites but "total ruin."
The second president, John Adams, had no higher opinion of ordinary white Americans than Washington. They were, he said, the “common herd” and had “no idea of learning, eloquence and genius” and were “locked within vulgar, rustic imaginations”.
Leftist socialism? Would be funny. Actually, leftists in the US have done a great job at selling the Founding Fathers for what they never performed. They even forced the inclusion of Thomas Payne as a FF because this guy was the closer in actions with what the FF told.
The leftist legacy... A propaganda to sugar-coat the actions of the Founding Fathers.
And dont worry about the efforts of anyone to discredit the great work of great men and women of the American experiment: no matter how talented a propagandist is, reality can not be beaten. And nobody will manage to discredit more the FF than the FF's actions themselves.
+1
Indeed. Quite a number of US citizens were mad at the good King Georges the Fitfth, because he enforced the property rights of the Indians and held up to treaties.
It is funny and ironic to think that the US still wants, through cheap propaganda, to propagate the idea they built their prosperity by respecting property rights while their own history points they built their prosperity by denying prosperity rights.
In the same vein, there are the Black Loyalists to be compared to the Black Revolutionaries. Both were promised freedom in exchange of military service, bu one group was promised freedom by the King, the other by the US.
And yes, the US did not keep its promise while the King did.
[I really want to be happy for the Egyptian people, but I'm too cynical to believe that this won't end badly for them in any event.]---Dr. Porkchop
Hi, Dr. I concur.
I feel the joy of a people overcoming tyranny. And I too share your cynicism about Egypt's future. A great power vacuum over a people in need attracts a multitude of malevolence.
I think you better fix your typo "(in)equality" lest you be skewered more than normally to be expected.
I intentionally ignored that. That would be like quibbling over corn being in the shit someone just dropped in your bed.
Baased on current definitions, the following people would today be considered DOMESTIC TERRORISTS.
George Washington
Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Jefferson
Patrick Henry
..............................and so on.....and so on
[Baased on current definitions, the following people would today be considered DOMESTIC TERRORISTS.]---curbyourrisk
Terrorist, even under "current" definitions, is still defined as someone who uses terror or instills fear in order to achieve a political end.
Our great American Patriots, including those you listed, more accurately fall under the following descriptions:
Rebels
Troublemakers
Rabble Rousers
Traitors to the King
Radicals
Conspirators
Insurrectionists
Seditionists
Turncoats
Secessionists
and Revolutionaries
God Bless each and every one of them!
"Terrorist, even under "current" definitions, is still defined as someone who uses terror or instills fear in order to achieve a political end."
Current (patriot act) definition is anyone opposed to what government is doing.
Sam Adams...
Wow. A deep and unique point. Never heard that before. Thanks for that.
Correct:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPg9MdN9Gio
George - the army enabled Mubarak and will enable his successor both of whom served at their pleasure. CNN and other MSM would have everyone believe that the army are the good guys. They are not, though it was nice and very pragmatic of them not to fire on the protesters. It is amazing to me how what amounts to a military coup can viewed as good news.
Yea, but we give the Egyptian military over a billion dollars a year. We will have some influence. They do not want to kill the golden goose.
It's a good first step. Time will tell, so don't count the chickens until they hatch.
It's a fantastic first step.
Now they just have to get rid of Hosni's Central Bank and keep the American campaign experts out of the election process.
Somebody is going to junk you regardless. Welcome back, & thanks for the adrenalin.
If I'm not pissing someone off then I'm not doing my job right!
Thanks!
It's a fantastic first step.
GW, when you write claptrap like this sentence:
"There is a stunning amount of equality in Egypt. But America is even worse",
you lose any shred of credibility you still have, which I believe is preciously little. Even the half ass blog you linked to does not state (much less prove by any means) that inequality is higher in the US than Egypt, merely that the US inequality scale has likely increased since it was last measured.
resip - you have a serious error in your quote from GW.
"There is a stunning amount of equality in Egypt. But America is even worse",
George wrote inequality. Do you not know how to cut and paste?
He wrote equality in the first place. I reported the trace of it in my first post as I wrote about a typo. Easy to see that it was meant to be inequality instead of equality.
At least the Egyptians well knew they were the personal property of Hosni Mubarak.
Americans? They think they are free.
What's worse... having a visually obvious cancer and removing it or haboring a cancer that you aren't even aware of.
Next disrespectful post from you is open season time.
(You did say 'half ass' after all! :)
Hey your logic is like your statistics...baloney from north korea.
GW has some valid points in that US does indeed support dictators , abets corruption, and domestically is soft on white collar crime and huge income disparity akin to third world countries in the name of free enterprise and entrepenurial spirit. But remember US policy in MiddleEast is driven by two factors;
Access to oil
Survival of Israel
Somehow it is easier to rationalize our foriegn policy then our domestic policy. Perhaps time to take to the streets, but wait until spring when its warmer and when dollar/markets collapse and unemployment is really felt.
Here are some polling numbers taken from those
freedom loving Egyptians GW.
According to a recent Pew survey (April - May 2010) reported by Reuters:
Also,
On Islamic punishments:
On the preferred system of governance:
If you hate America so much GW, Head on over to the new
free Egypt. Just make sure you are muslim and don't steal
anything.
We prop up Dictators all over the Middle East to get at the oil.
Islamic punishments? Many societies had/have similar punishments without being muslim or islamic.
The situation was not that more brilliant in the US/Europe when democracy started to take ground.
60pc? Wooo, that is big. Quite a lot of starting democracies did not enjoy that kind of popular support.
is that polling numbers from Jerusalem.com :-)
Hey - Check SilverFiend's link to his Pew survey "stats". Is he phishing?
https://mail.google.com/mail/?shva=1#inbox/12df1826382c51c1
What a scam!
Check out the grammar -->54% wants segregation
[Here are some polling numbers taken from those freedom loving Egyptians...]---SilverFiend
I like your post, Silver. Except for the part where you invite GW to move to Egypt. I like GW's articles, and this one is particularly strong.
I'm not so certain our Founders would be proud of the Egyptians. To be sure, the Egyptians are displaying remarkable courage in the face of tyranny. I'm also certain though, many of our Founders would disapprove handing over complete control of the country to a standing army. There are many differences to consider.
Your post, juxtaposed to GW's, raises many important questions. (Pardon me if I don't flesh some out at the moment.)
Yes, and one big difference is that between a 'democracy' and a democraticaly elected constitutional republic. Kind of like the difference between night and day.
...but, then again, the Congress of the Confederation gave Gen. George Washington near-dictatorship rule over our militias and regulars.
Thought provoking indeed. Thanks, ZH.
So let's see if I get this right...
80% or more of Egyptians do not support Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden.
and...
77% favor the amputation of hands for thieves.
So you are saying Egypt posses no terror threat to the USA but is definitely NOT a place to be if you are a thieving investment banker.
What's not to like?
Better than here.
and our meddling in egyptian affairs and supporting dictators against the will of the people will improve those numbers how?
Hard to improve the numbers when only 1,000 people were surveyed in over 7 separate countries...
The poll surveyed attitudes among Muslims in seven countries — Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon, Nigeria, Pakistan and Turkey. The questions in the survey are part of Pew’s Global Attitudes Project, which has been collecting this data since 2002. The results are based on responses from 1,000 adults questioned between April 12 and May 3 in face-to-face interviews in Arabic.
And face to face interviews at that... I wonder if that may have had some impact on the responses.
I knew I something smelled.
Oh... and your link doesn't work so here is one that does!
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2011/02/02/egyptians-want-more-islam-in-politics-according-to-pew-poll/
Good link, cat. Here's where it gets good:
It smells even worse when you don't have breakdown of age and gender. What's an adult? How many adults in Turkey speak Arabic? Last I checked they spoke Turkish. How many of the 340 Bahasa dialect Indonesians know and speak Arabic? Let's try zilch. Pakistan? Again, so many languages and dialects not even miniscually Arabic based. Nigeria? Fuck off. No way.
I'll give them Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan. The sample gets smaller down to 430. So, these face to face interviews of Muslims whom spoke Arabic are the basis for these statschmistics being quoted day in and day out in the MSM? And these questions of those being asked are based on the "word" of the Qur'an and face-to-face? What else are they going to say?
But not to sound like I have not done any homework, on the other hand, half of Indonesia has imposed Sharia law. Turkey has constant battles on the front as the fundamentalists do not have the support of the greater people. Ever been to Turkey? The mosques are pretty empty. Most of the youth totally reject the faith and the limitations on women. As for the rest of the countries listed, Sharia law is pretty nuts and pervasive. Pakistan and the Taliban made a deal last year. Nigeria has it in 9 Muslim states. And the rest go without saying.
Easier just to ask the questions publicly outside of a mosque when it lets out... :)
... or an alCIAda recruiting booth.
Bingo.
You 2 little nancy boys need to tell me where you learnt all this wisdom.
Hang around outside a mosque, like the one near you? Oh yeah? Right.
Try the Jame mosque, formerly Saddam Hussain mosque in Birmingham , UK, one of eighty in the city - they'd cut you up if you looked at someone the wrong way.
Lakemba mosque in sydney? After the imam has given a sermon on women not in hijab being like 'uncovered meat'.
You guys are pathetic - you don't know any muslims and no doubt haven't been to a muslim country. prob never been out of your pimps eyesight for longer than a pipe break,
i have been to several muslim countries and lived with people there.
The sad truth is that while good people are good people whoever they are, the koran gives not so good people the right to fuck over the infidel.
Time to wake up and smell the roses - it means that the muslim brotherhood will have a real shot at taking egypt and democracy in the middle east means swaying control by strong men and fundamentalists.
i couldn't really care less and dont want to get involved but i get bored of reading koolaid drinkers hogging the chat. See if your rosy view pans out over the next 3 months.
communist dictator Lincoln...I am sure that comrade Stalin is glowing in his grave thanks to this comparison...to live in Lincoln's company for eternity...As for the great Helmsman Mao tse tung he must be less tongue tied than a texas bull horn during a branding ceremony, great balls of fire!
We would need Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and the Dalai Lama all rolled into one to lead the citizens into peaceful non-compliance and dissent against the strangling socio-economic policies of our Congress, Judicial, and Executive branches who are helped by corporate elites and international bankers doing god's work.
Why is there no peaceful movement in America:
1. The average age of protesters in Egypt is 24 years old. This is a generational challenge to the status quo (Think of what the sixties brought). We need all the students to become politically active and aware. They are so lost in the progressive, liberal crap and trying to find jobs in our economy and playing with their social media and iPhones that they can't see the forest for the trees. Their bellies are filled, and they have nothing to loose.
2. The US has so many resources. Even after all the Tarps and bailouts, the US has more food and goods that it will take 30 more years before the majority is homeless and starving notwithstanding 45 million on food stamps.
3. Doom on a house divided. The strength of our nation working together in all races and creeds has been turned against us and proves a weakness in our matters of state. The Europeans are constantly proclaiming in the MSM that multiculturalism has failed just to stir the pot!
If we could agree on just a few basic principles of living green in a local community, we could pull through this crisis.
Instead of a Chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, we should be thinking a chicken or two in every backyard and a hydroponics vegetable garden in every garage.
The Hope and Change Obama called for turned out to be non-representative control from the top and worldwire communism.
yeah, i just saw a Ford 150 truck hauling an open trailer full of dirty snow taking it up the mountain. what are these people thinking? waste oil to haul snow out of their driveways, so they can drive to the post office. hypocrites, everyone of these dumb down white educated people.
see http://www.growingpower.org
also see the growingpower vids on YouTube
The founder won a MacArthur Genius Award for good reason.
+1