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Fraudclosure Update: The Crowd Is Getting Restless
The US population is starting to get restless: investors are beginning to sue, there are protests over HAMP, and foreclosure probes are happening.
HAMP Protests
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/26/homeowners-protest-hamp-i_n_773582.html
Washington Post: Economists: U.S. should remove top bank execs over foreclosure mess
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/political-economy/2010/10/economists_remove_the_senior_l.html
Assured Guaranty Sues Deutsche Bank Over Mortgages
http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ada1QmQYr_BI
Assured said more than 83 percent of 1,306 defaulted loans examined in one of the transactions, ACE’s Home Equity Loan Trust, Series 2007-SL2, breached Deutsche Bank’s representations and warranties. In the second deal, Home Equity Loan Trust, Series 2007-SL3, 86 percent of the 1,774 loans breached the agreements, Assured said.
Faulty Foreclosures, by Adam Levitin
http://www.creditslips.org/creditslips/2010/10/faulty-foreclosures.html
Bank of America Mulls Dividend Hike
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10893231/1/bank-of-america-mulls-dividend-hike.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN
U.S. probing foreclosure processing firms (uses the criminal word…)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/25/AR2010102505731.html
Homeowner says Stern sent retaliatory letter
http://www.dailybusinessreview.com/PubArticleDBR.jsp?id=1202473895545&Homeowner_says_Stern_sent_retaliatory_letter
From the last must read article showing how desperate parties on both sides of the table are getting:
A lawyer for a homeowner who went to Florida's attorney general about a law firm's conduct in a foreclosure case claims the firm sent his client a "discriminatory and racially degrading" letter to frighten him into dropping the complaint.
The letter, which the homeowner asserts emanated from the Law Offices of David J. Stern in Plantation, was filed with a counterclaim to a foreclosure action brought by CitiMortgage in Miami-Dade Circuit Court.
Stern's attorney questioned the authenticity of the letter and said it was not authorized if it was generated by the law firm or by its back-office foreclosure processing business, DJSP Enterprises.
Jorge Porter and his attorney, John Herrera, said the letter arrived in the mail after Porter took complaints about his foreclosure to the state attorney general's office. Twelve homeowners are named in the attorney general's subpoena for Stern's records, and Porter is one of them.
The counterclaim filed on Porter's behalf characterizes the letter as "threatening, discriminatory and racially degrading" and also says it "threatened Porter with criminal action if he did not pay the total amount due to their client, CitiMortgage."
"This particular letter is a direct response to my client's allegations of fraud," Herrera said in an interview. "You can almost categorize that letter as extortion."
Some of the country's largest lenders stopped doing business with the law firm since early this month.
The letter to Porter dated Aug. 18 instructs him to vacate his home within 30 days or face eviction on an April foreclosure filing in the circuit court. But in a counterclaim filed with the court, Herrera raises 25 affirmative defenses to the foreclosure. One asserts CitiMortgage did not own or hold the mortgage when the action was filed. Herrera, who filed the letter Oct. 19 as a court exhibit accompanying Porter's counterclaim, sees the letter as an effort to frighten his client into withdrawing the complaint he filed with the attorney general.
Under a label "publication or dissemination is prohibited," the unsigned letter on Stern law firm stationery states, "You should be relieved to be able to live in a civilized society and not take for granted the many opportunities available to people like you here, instead of taking advantage of the system by continuing to occupy a property you don't legally owned [sic]."
"Frankly speaking, you seem to ignore how 'The Rule of Law' works in this Country," the letter states. "We therefore encourage you to educate yourself, as to what is 'legally' acceptable in the United States. The fact that you are a foreign national from a third world country doesn't excuse you from such ignorance."
The letter leaves a white gap for a signature above the typed words "Law Offices of David J. Stern."
Stern's attorney, Jeffrey Tew of Miami's Tew Cardenas, said a security officer at Stern's firm couldn't find the letter in the firm's database. Tew noted the foreclosure case number listed in the letter did not adhere to the firm's style.
"We have examined the letter. There appears to be some things about the letter that bring its authenticity into question, and, in any event, it wouldn't be an authorized letter from the law firm," Tew said.
A Pitney Bowes postage-meter number on the envelope traces back to Stern's offices, according to Herrera. He said Stern's representatives can examine the original, and he would make his computer databases available for inspection.
Herrera, a Coral Gables solo practitioner, contends CitiMortgage lacked standing to sue because Porter's mortgage was sold in 2005 by Mortgage Warehouse to ABN Amro Mortgage Group. He asserts CitiMortgage did not "own, hold or possess" the mortgage when the foreclosure was filed.
The counterclaim alleges slander of title, fraud, fraudulent misrepresentation, abuse of process, civil conspiracy, violation of Florida Consumer Collection Practices Act and violation of the Fair Debt Collection Act.
Court papers initially listed CitiMortgage as the mortgage servicer. A mortgage assignment from Mortgage Warehouse to CitiMortgage was executed Aug. 18, four months after the original foreclosure filing. Herrera called that "a legal impossibility."
'Fabricated Documents'
Herrera said Porter complained to the attorney general's office about the foreclosure earlier that month. On Aug. 10, Attorney General Bill McCollum announced the filing of subpoenas against Stern's firm and three others, claiming "fabricated documents" have been filed in foreclosure cases to oust homeowners.
The law firms say they committed no systemic wrongdoing.
The Aug. 18 date on the letter with the offensive language is the same date as the mortgage assignment.
"This 'sore losing' demeanor will not be tolerated any longer," the letter states. "You know the charges you have filed against our Law Firm are totally false, defamatory, unfounded as are also both embarrassing and shocking."
Porter said the letter came as a shock.
"He makes a major insult against me, my nationality, my ethnic background," Porter said. "Add this to all the humiliation of the foreclosure and everything I had been going through with the bank, it's just not right."
Porter moved to United States with his family when he was a child, settling first in New England before coming to Miami. He said the letter reminded him of something his grandmother used to say: "I'm too American to be Colombian and too Colombian to be American."
Porter, a real estate agent, said he was not going to let his home of 20 years go without a fight. But he said he could never get through to a lawyer at Stern's firm and was belittled by the staff when he called. He said they would purposely pronounce his first name Jorge as "whore."
"I would say, 'Ma'am, you are not being funny," Porter said. "They hung up on me so many times."
Loan Modification
He asserted he tried to work with CitiMortgage from the start. He worked on a loan modification and continued to make mortgage payments though he was in arrears on the $200,000 loan. He said CitiMortgage kept losing his paperwork and eventually his whole file. He said he rejected a modification packet that was mailed to him with different terms than were discussed. The foreclosure suit was filed a few weeks later.
Porter said he went to the FBI, the Federal Trade Commission and finally the state attorney general's office.
"This is the poster child case for the mess that we are in," Herrera said.
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Stop payment.
That is all....for now.
Cdad was here....
Here's an idea: Stop paying mortgage. Don't pay taxes. Let IRS put a lien on property. Let bank foreclose. Let IRS and bank duke it out for the proceeds from foreclosure. Hopefully IRS won't release lien until made whole from proceeds of foreclosure sale. Live rent free for a year and get taxes paid by bank. Solves a few problems...
Brilliant!
Cdad was here...
Here's an even better idea.
1. Send a letter of Rescission of Signature on the loan. You have to do this before the official Foreclosure.
2. File your UCC 1 form claiming yourself as the CREDITOR with a security interest in the DEBTOR's property, marriage, children, real property, debt, liens, and all assets. You must file correctly.
3. Ask for the total demand for payment on the loan like you are going to pay it off.
4. Prepare the discharge of debt through the US Treasury filing out the three pieces of paper and the SF5510 form. The presentment must be accepted for value and returned for discharge, settlement, and closure of the account.
5. Pursue an Administrative Remedy file the Notice of Default with Opportunity to cure after 10 days of your Rescission letter.
6. File notice of Default.
7. Send three Demands for payment of your damages. Every cent you sent in to the bank over the years to pay for this fraudulent loan can be clawed back.
8. File a Notarial Protest. It is an Affidavit that states all the steps you took to Rescind your signature and get back your money.
9. Get the Notarial Protest processed through Apostille at the Secretary of Treasury of your state. This is confirmation by a state agency that you have been defrauded.
10. You can use this to file a lien against the bank at the Recorder's office, which they will likely refuse to record. However, send your lien to the bank under registered and certified mail, return receipt. The Post Office is the original jurisdiction for recording in the US.
11. Attach the lien to a business building belonging to the bank and begin foreclosure procedures.
Sang-froid like the French.
12. Go to jail for fraud and tax evasion.
Every step is documented in the UCC.
All the talk about "not making my mortgage payment, I'm fed up" is akin to the football player who said he would retire since he couldn't make hard hits on players. Or how about all the people who said, "If Bush gets elected, I'm moving to Canada"?
Guess what? The player is still playing. Nobody moved to Canada. And people will continue to make their mortgage payments unless they can't. To say you won't make your payment when you can is nothing short of silly. You know when that check is due, it's going in the mail without hesitation.
You are absolutely right. Until you've had the pleasure of being subjected to one of the TBTF Banksters' trial loan modification programs.
Wow...I had thought you a semi serious operator Harry...up until this post.
Damage control....Damange control...report....
Harry is in Hong Kong. I say again Harry is in Hong Kong.
What a putz....."APPLE"...Say again Harry...."APPLE BUY APPLE BUY APPLE BUY APPLE"
For the 1010th, I don't own AAPL - haven't in over a month now.
And, the point is, people will bitch and moan about a perceived problem that they are sure is going to fuck everything up. So what do they do? They tell everyone how fed up they are and "I'm so mad, I'm not going to pay my mortgage!"
Then they pay it. It's different if you can't or you're on the margin of struggling to pay it. But for the majority of people here who state that they CAN make their payments but won't, definitely will. It's human nature.
Moron. Far East Moron!
Way to go, Harry!
Go on...make it even easier! FRAUD!
Hello Hong Kong!
LOL!
And how do you know this? do you have access to the accounts of all who are on here? Does it make you a littel nervous that many are not paying?
I am now going to default on my second months payment and have not heard from my services why?
For the 1010th, I don't own AAPL - haven't in over a month now.
hilarious.
Harry Wanger is an asshat who has been hanging around this board for months. He was a perma bull. Now he's just an asshat after so many people ripped him a new bung hole over and over. He's a douche, and people should just ignore him. He degrades this board with his posts.
HarryWagner...... master of the flip-flop.
Moral of the story: Don't make frivolous statements!
After all, APPLE is NASDAQ.
Again...APLLE IS NASDAQ.
Think about it...
[duplicate]
We didn't get here because we were on a winning streak. Break out the Kleenex box.
http://thecivillibertarian.blogspot.com/
Harry,
From Hong Kong.
Watch how "general" his posts are.
Always calling things in the rear view mirror as his predictions. [Folk from the far east think we are stupid].
Harry's linguistics are pretty tight...hat tip.
Good luck out there.
Cdad was here....
i've counted 15 references to hong kong from you at this point in this thread.
you obviously have some deep seated personal issues with the place.
ever been there?
It would seem to me that he/she could be FROM there, and trying desperately to compensate for it...;-] There have been less grating contributions from Cdad in the past, but this thread really seems to have touched a nerve for some reason.
thinking something similar CD, like maybe the Wumaodang have been brushing up on their Cointelpro techniques. the sticky rice reference was the trigger.
I got a question, once the FBI creates a folder on you for posting on zerohedge, how long does it take to get a copy using the freedom of information act?
Could be a great keep sake for the grand gids after the revolution.
Rather than contacting the banks -wouldn't it be easier to check the county clerks office to determine who is listed as holding the note?
To ask such a question shows that you really need to study this situation. Example: Why do you think California is sueing?
Actually meant to post that up thread when it was being discussed asking the mortgage company to prove the note. And yes - I'm just starting to really study this - but seems to be the easiest way to determine who really holds the note at the state/county level. I guess I may be missing something -but if the title changes were not made- would that not be shown?
How would your local County Recorder KNOW what's been going on behind their collective backs? Why do you think ALL 50 state Attorneys General are trying to find out just what is going on with mortgages/foreclosures? (Hint, beaucoup FRNs are probably owed to those County Recorders!)
You need to spend more time reading and less time asking questions like this. Questions are good, but this one is insane.
Don't ask me why, but I have the feeling there will be a bank run.
prol'y
I am surprised at the amount of dead beats on this board. Take some personal responsibility.
How many of you refi'd or used a HELOC and now think that you should "stick it to the man"?
You are as big a thieves as they are.
And both of you are going to stick me, who lived within my means, with the fucking bill.
I'm not sure if you've read up on the latest, but this could affect current payers as well as those that have fallen behind. It's quite possible that if you've payed off your mortgage in full, the bank may not be able to send you the title. They shredded the title so they could sell it multiple times through MERS to different buyers. They don't have the title, and they can't produce it. I.e., you may be s.o.l. if you ever want to sell your house. And all that money you've been 'paying off' has been going to the wrong person.
You say all that like it's a bad thing! </sarcasm>
If you think the people here are deadbeats, then you must simply adore TARP.And fannie/freddie.And GS et al.
Don't you get it....you get to pay for all of it.
The frugal modest living get screwed the worst in this dystopian nightmare.
So forget not paying unless this system disappears....you pay, and pay, and pay.
Following the current rules makes you a slave.
Just ask Warren Buffet...he makes his own rules.
Some animals are more equal than others.
Read my posts up above. There is no money and there is no debt. It's all paper, paper, paper....
Right, but then, so are Arrest Warrants!
fasTTcar - Please.
No one is bailing me out.
It is clear after two years that NOT ONE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT OR LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT MY RIGHTS!
Shall we mamby-pamby our way to the cotton fields?
Shall we roll over and play "happy citizen" and put the flag out on the 4th and PRETEND we still own something?
Shall we hem and haw and equivocate and practice the sophistry of our politicians to ensure our kids get bent over worse than us?
NO!
No you should not.
But you should pay your fucking bills and live up to your commitments.
I have no problem with someone walking away from a house. That is part of the mortgage contract.
I do have a problem with someone gaming the system.
Junk away.
Understood.
My problem is that banks and bankers have not honored their contracts, they have gambled (and gamboled) with them.
At some point, their actions, the lack of enforcement of the rule of law, and the general lack of morality pushes the individual to reject every contract because the spirit of contracts between men (and women) has been subsumed by fraud and malfeasance to the point where the only solution is complete collapse of the entire system.
I believe we are very close to this inflection point.
It is still my perspective that Fraudclosure is merely one branch of all that is Oligarchs Gone Wild.
Lets wargame this out. All it would take is the nationalization of several of the TBTF banks, some CEO jailing or booting of major token banksters. The legs would be kicked out from the proverbial table of fraudclosure. 70% of the anger would be quelled and everyone would take their ball and go home, MSM along for the ride.
Not a bad start, but this is only a small shell in the game. Follow the pea.
The rule of law has been hijacked by Oligarchs and they feed off the entire capitalist system with weaponry and law enforcement in partnership to do their work.
Like the mob sacrificing a few of it's own henchmen to the slammer or seeing a captain shot dead in an alley, the bosses keep the system running. Moving it along to the next bubble, the next squid victim or asset class.
Just throw the newspapers a few headlines that the good guy had his day in the sun and everyone shuts up and goes home feeling warm and fuzzy inside.
As long as the rule of law remains enslaved to the Oligarchs, we are merely spectators of their handywork hoping to get enough of a cut from the captains to keep the family happy and safe.
Sorry for a lack of polish, but it's been a long day making enough dough to keep paying the mortgage...
"Anger of the Honest" indeed.
Ironically, without the banksters long time preference, society would collapse. They feed the short time preference stooges (citizens) cash, and then rip them off, storing their efforts in more lending, thus allowing society to keep from turning into the metaphorical equivalent of a crack house.
The stooges have to get their act together or it is all over for another generation, and on and on.
"Anger of the honest"
What did you mean when you wrote this?
Curious....
"Anger of the Honest" Reference:
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogoct10/fraud-anger10-10.html
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogoct10/poisoned-well10-10.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gues-post-us-financial-markets-well-has...
Distilled to it's simplist form:
Citizens and businesses that played by the rules of law (the honest) have been deceived, misled and treated as if they were a rechargeable battery. And they're just starting to peel back the layers of the greatest heist in the history of the world.
YES!
Thirty f'ing years of being respnosible and honest and angry as hell!
And 23 years after my Father's early passing, seeing the government tax his earnings a THIRD time (death tax) and seeing my Mother try and survive on what was left and getting TAXED OUT THE ASS on anything she "invested" for "capital formation" to those shysters on Wall Street...
...and then...
...they get bailed out with unearned taxes on the heads of my children!?!?
It makes me want to HANG EVERY ONE OF THEM AND THEIR POLITICAL CRONIES AND STOOGES FROM THE NEAREST STREETLAMP OR OVERPASS.
Angry of the honest - YES!
Sheila Bair proposed 25% reduction in payments (principal) to mortgage holders for blanket forgiveness of the banks transgressions and their mess to avoid costly lawsuits. Bribe.
Chump change is exchange for prostituting Lady Justice on the Bankster Altar.
How about they all get tried for their criminal offenses, they and their banks pay their debts to the victims and are broken up, and we allow real estate to find its true market levels.
Correct...because the actual bill to the mega banks would require an additional 75%
LoL!
I would take 70% LTV on a current, fair, real appraisal today, 15 year 3.5% fixed. That to replace the under water 80% LTV 30 year we closed summer 2007 (worst possible time evar? Didn't overspend and after 20% down we put 50K of the proceeds from sale of the previous home into the eldest child's 529. Oh wait, that was a stock market investment, whoops).
Who wouldn't take "free" money? We've all been clamoring for "our" bailout, maybe this is it. Meanwhile I'll pay my bills until I cannot, if that makes me a lemming or sheeple or what the eff ever, fine, so be it.
Meanwhile, while we still have means, we will prepare for worst case scenarios. And deleverage . . . debt free is the key. The main goal.
And what of the million plus families who've already lost their homes?
Sometimes bad things happen to good people.
Sometimes justice eludes.
Sometimes people get what they deserve.
Well, I guess as long as we get ours . . .
LOOK!!!!! People need to WAKE UP........... and realize what they got themselves into! Nothing but a PONZI! Stuff warm bodies into a house and attach an ATM machine. Sell the MBS/CDO and what ever other SYNTHETIC crap you can and the buy your CDS to gaurantee the ANTICIPATED loss...THAT SIMPLE.... The hook was set and the bait was taken. The only problem was WHEN the unemployment rate tanked they realized the bubble was unsustainable. Their wish sandwich which comprised of only two slices of bread and no meat in between turned into an open faced nothing. 17 seconds of REALITY....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAH-o7oEiyY
Exactly my point. Any kind of mass settlement should address the losses suffered by the people whose number came up early in this criminal clusterfuck. Imagine the human toll of those losses--financial ruin, divorces, traumatized children, etc. I don't think it's enough to "bail out" people who managed to hold on until the crimes came to light.
It would be nice if the banks shared a fraction of the bailout money they got to protect them from market forces. 25% is a start but I would need roughly a 65% reduction to bring me to current market price....
dont forget to starve the beast
http://wn.com/Tax_Strike_2010__Reform_American_Government__Career_Term_L...
This is what I do.
All day every day.
I read bank balance sheets, news releases, and other sources [ZH].
Here is where the war is...this is where Average Joe does combat with the plutocracy.
And while I would love to chit chat about how stupid it is to build a buritto franchise around a $9 product, the matter of the US banking system is far more important.
Hold back your mortgage payment.
Demand clean title.
Now!
And with any luck between here and there, maybe we can all finally rid ourselves of JP Morgan. A man can dream [And I would do an hour on The Federal Reserve Bank...but since this board seems populated with Far Eastern ears...I digress]
Shorting JPM, BAC, MS, GS, and every other bank that dares to rally at this time....
Good luck out there....average joe....
Cdad was here...............................................................
What about Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, and all the billionaires and multimillionaires, the Rockefellas etc. How does the treasury and fed account for thier labor and loans? They must owe a shit load to the govt, I,m not following all this legal double talk, please speak english. thank you
Actually....We owe it all to them. They just say...ha..ha...ha
Again.
For now.
Stop payments.
Ask for clean title...and help us all rid the world of a plauge...called....JPM.....
well done,
Your bonus will arrive to off shore account shortly
I'm enjoying all the fantastic visions of a widespread debt revolt, but you guys are missing a basic ingredient.
The average American doesn't know shit about banking, mortgages, or finance. They comprehend some basic facts that are directly relevant to them, like a lower interest rate generally corresponds to a lower monthly payment, but they have neither the capacity, time, or interest to bend their minds about the labyrinthine workings of the legal underpinnings of their mortage.
Assuming that they are first able to crystallize enough anger at the banks to overcome their natural guilt at flaking on their mortage debt, they are not going to join in some mass protest movement unless a personal METHOD for protest is clearly and unambiguously presented to them and the POTENTIAL RAMIFICATIONS are also laid out to them. Until such resources exist, most people will quietly go on paying their debt masters, not because they want to, but because they lack the information and tools to confidently stand up against the banks.
If you want to harness the very real anger out there, you need to give people a clear set of actions they can take to articulate that anger. For example, a boilerplate "show me the note" letter would be a good start, along with all necessary informational accessories, like an explanation of what a note is and why the bank may not have it. All of this written in layman's terms and set up so that people can work through the process step-by-step and get answers from experts in the community. [Of course, you need to add that they should seek legal advice, but the key is that they should have a clear enough introduction to the process and the benefits/risks that will feel confident taking that first step to seek out legal advice.]
This is a lot of work, but if it is done right, a website that gives people the tools they need to effectively tell their bank to go fuck itself would quite likely go viral very quickly.
It's not just a debt revolt. It's stopping payments to criminal organizations (the banks that are fraudsters) and those banks that have payed off our representatives and justice system in toto. It's about reestablishing the rule of law in this country. Do you want to keep paying for crime? Keep sponsoring the violation of the rule of law? No? Well, use your money as your vote.
They can't operate without our money. We have the leverage. If we can organize, then we have power.
The whole thing can be pretty simple:
1. The banks shredded your title
2. That means you may not be able to sell your house without the title
3. The banks did this through fraud and are not being prosecuted for it, in fact, we paid them off for what they did.
I fully agree as stated below, but the point is that average Joe with a family to take care of is not going to roll the dice on the advice of a bunch of random Internet postings. They are going to need an information source that is much more rigorous in its description of the "how-to" and "what-if"s.
Consider the people who frequent ZH. They have been pounded daily by stories of violations of the rule of law and fair process, but even after months of this, only now are some of them openly discussing stopping payments for non-economic reasons. For the average American, who grew up respecting the rule of law and the morality of paying one's debt, and, who has not been witness to ZH's daily tales of pillage, it is incredibly difficult to turn away from that heritage and change one's behavior. Despite this, the level of anger for many people has reached that critical mass, but without the tools to turn that anger into action, those people will not revolt on their own accord.
Ok, so let's make a list of what people need.
1. Short summary of what's happened to the rule of law.
2. What to do:
a. stop funding of the criminal network.
b. stop paying the banks for home mortgage, credit cards, and bank deposits
c. If you own a home, a list of lawyers who are fighting the banks and winning
d. A fight the banks fund for people that can't afford lawyer payments
e. how to contact your attorney general to bring the bankers to justice and all those who perpetuated the fraud to justice
3. What 'if'
a. you might lose your house, then what?
b. you may lose your credit score, then what?
What else do we need to add? Start creating the content and we can put it on the site. There's lots of smart people on this site. We can put something together.
That's a good start, but what you really need is a few bona fide experts that understand the technical details of the whole process. Plenty of people can fill in the "philosophical" blanks about why this is a just action, but you need to find the people who can lay out the technical side of the process in excruciating detail, and they will be much more difficult to find.
If you can find those individuals and they are willing to donate the time to create a well-lighted pathway for prospective civil disobedients, then the website will have real value. [I am not, unfortunately, one of those individuals, but finding them and their expertise is key]
I agree. I'd start with William Black:
foreclose on the fraudsters
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-k-black/foreclose-on-the-foreclos_...
And Karl Denniger
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=170233
Who else can we add?
One last thought...along with the process, the website should also make a precise, not-ranting argument explaining why stopping your mortgage is a legitimate form of civil disobedience.
Many other posters have made this point very cogently, but to repeat, in essence, the argument is that our republic has devolved into an oligarchy where power lies with the TBTF banks and their fully-owned lackeys within the political, media, and legal system, that this oligarchy is systematically looting the Treasury and the wealth of the populace, and that this oligarchy has systematically undermined rule of law to their benefit. The average Joe hsa been proven powerless to stand up to this oligarchy through traditional political processes, leaving civil obedience as the next rational step.
Nicely summarized!
"leaving civil obedience as the next rational step"...I would modify to "ONLY" rational step, from there there be dragons and other "less than desirable" outcomes.
I'd like to contribute. Check out my posts above and here:
http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/asymmetrical-warfare-mill-wars-based-ucc-practice#comment-679733
I firmly believe civil disobedience to be the only step we can take.
I'm afraid that there are some very smart people that have engineered this coming collapse, and that there will be mass riots in America, which can and probably will get out of hand. Once this happens, and it goes on for long enough, people will start to clamor for a man, a strong man, to come and establish order.
Which, I'm afraid, is probably the exact outcome the elites want. Then they'll put their 'saviour' in place, and that's it for America as the republic of the people.
I'm sure such a site probably already exists, in the mean-time:
http://blog.youwalkaway.com/
People shouldn't walk away. They should stay in their homes. They should resist the bankers by a 'sit-in' in their own homes.
Juasta notter day in da US of A....
Nothing to see ... keep working, assholes and elbows is all we want to see.
Why do we sit down, when all should be standing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bitxwy6okn4
Bring it on, baby.
still waiting for this "Big Event".
The economy currently is recovering and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. This constant need for "drama" is an addictive sensation much the same as one would experience smoking a joint or drinking a Martini. Nothing is coming folks! The worst is behind. Some people are going to have to start accepting the fact the state is LARGER and MORE POWERFUL than you are. So instead of dooming, let us now focus on more important issues like building a high speed rail like China, or an advanced Water system suggested by LaRouche.
You are not going to change the system, you just have to find a way to work within it.
There is no "Second Collapse" in store for the US economy. 2008 was a ounce in a CENTURY type event. You will not see that type o f drama that could have 'sparked' the Revolution you are deerly wish to see. Just as history will tell you, BANKERS NEVER LOSE!
P.S. I am NOT a Troll. Just look at the facts. You all have been calling for collapse (on and off again). Constantly wrong!
Nothing is coming.
"Just as history will tell you, BANKERS NEVER LOSE!"
Everyone loses locally eventually, but bankers just set up shop elsewhere and begin the same game,
They already have set up shop in Latin America. The investments pouring in are astounding.
They just wait 2-4 generations, for the ones last f**ked over to die off, and the lessons learned to fade to black, then return to start again with a fresh, neophyte population.
Luckily, I remember what my granfather taught me (he came of age in the last bankster enabled depression), and pass it on to my children...now, if I could make up for the 10 years I was bamboozled and bought into the game....lol...been working on that for 7 years.
What we need is another check and balance to the elite's power. The founders didn't go far enough. We need another check on the power of the elites. Something that can stop the nexus between the megabusiness from usurping the power centers of the people.
I'm not sure what it is, but unless this power is set up to check this oligarchy, it will just happen again and again.
The founders did so much to establish power for the people, but it's obvious there's something missing in this puzzle.
then lets get this website thingy in this thread going, information can be a strong flashlight....just a'sayin'...:)
I'm almost done with the design. What's the domain going to be? Then I can make a logo from that once we decide on the name.
My vote is for: StopPayingCriminals.com
You can view the design here: http://min.us/icLHsy/homepage1.jpg
Any suggestions?
Looks good! The FAQ should explain it all, i.e., the scope of the crimes and the rationale for choking the beast. I think incorporating form letters for "show me the note" actions, complaints to state AG's and such would also be a good idea. It might be a good idea to allow for "anonymous pledges" as well.
Pefect domain--both meaningful and easily memorable.
Book it, Danno!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AepyGm9Me6w
V-Revolution.com of course
me likey! Someone has to register it, namecheap.com is cheap and good customer service. I have hosting covered once we get a domain and a developer...:)
Better late than never:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article22677.htm
Great plan! ... 3 self-correcting arms of central planning didn't work [at all], so let's have 4 to create even more corruptible positions, and places to point fingers, at the table!
The people had no power right from the beginning. It was George Washington himself who led the army against the Pennsylvanian farmers to collect unconstitutional new taxes just 2 years after he swore allegiance to a brand new "foolproof" Constitution! Where do you think Obama and Bush got their ideas from?
The system hasn't always failed. It's prone to corruption, but that's a human error. We need to get back to trust. Without trust, there's nothing to build on, but that's a cultural problem, not as much a system's problem.
I think the nihilism that's pervasive in the culture is partly to blame. The checks and balances is like the hardware, but the culture is the software. It takes a culture of trust and integrity to operate the system.
Trust must be earned, not handed out like candy. Delegating, or entrusting, your personal responsibility to a central planner -- with whom you have never met nor had prior dealings -- on the basis of his/her vacuous promises or good looks during a debate -- is irrational in the extreme! When a number of such individuals -- with non-congruent or competing interests! -- add to the central planner's "store" of delegated trust, he/she will then parlay that into power. Which is how we got to here!
In a free society, every individual will build up his/her own store of trust -- based purely on prior performance -- which can then be traded for favourable terms in further contracting with others. As with any complex system, this scales up in fractal fashion when groups of individuals, with a common interest, trade their accumulated trust in contracting with other groups -- whether for goods, labour or protective services.
This is why the central planners don't like free societies ... there is no room for a middle-man parasite to live off a host.
I agree. I don't think people can trust the leaders any longer. Or the legal system. It's all been proven to be co-opted by the elites. I agree that you can't hand out trust like candy.
I believe that the culture we have now has been created for us. We no longer trust one another. We think everyone is out for themselves, short-gainers, I call them. They steal because they have the power. But this system of corruption can't last, so it results in a collapse of the system.
But the system has it's benefits and it has worked in the past. What we need is to reboot the culture. We need to out every person in power that is currently in charge of the system, and we need to restore trust in each other. I think this is done when people can see with their own eyes that the criminals are being put away. The criminals are no longer part of the system. That's why it's so dangerous that there's been 0 prosecutions in this, because ultimately, it leads to the collapse of trust, and then society itself.
I don't think this is an accident. I think we've been given these nihilistic beliefs so that we stop trusting. People have been turned into automatons of consumption. We have better relationships with TV characters than our neighbors. This is not by accident.
I agree it's now irrational to trust the leaders of this system.
Start locally. Start your own system of trust with those around you.
Thanks for your reply, T1000. I'm sorry to nitpick, but I must make a few minor corrections to your apparent understanding of the principles and, therefore, your mental constructs:
It's not a matter of "any longer" ... leaders could never be trusted because of the insane principle of "leaders" (whether elected or self-appointed) attempting to satisfy competing interests. A free society only has interactions between those with common interests.
If you reboot culture (human nature), you will -- just like a computer -- arrive exactly back at the same Windows desktop as last time. Paraphrasing Einstein: "The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result next time". Statism is dead and must be buried.
It has always been irrational to trust a "leader" of any system. You can only trust those with a common interest ... and, even then, to paraphrase Reagan, "trust ... but verify!".
[The founders did so much to establish power for the people, but it's obvious there's something missing in this puzzle.]
T1000, thanks for your post. I too spend a great deal of time considering these issues.
Of course, our Founders were fallible individuals. But, acting in concert, and humbled by the historic opportunity to create a new nation, I believe the founding documents they wrote were divinely inspired.
IMO, the only puzzle piece missing upon ratification of our Constitution was the issue of abolishing slavery. Thank goodness Lincoln set right the missing puzzle piece.
However, I do agree with you. Something is amiss. I believe ONE important puzzle piece---one of the original pieces---has gone missing. The missing piece lifted from the original puzzle is a sound monetary system.
The Founders experienced hyper-inflation (at their own hands) in that of the colonial Continental dollar during the Revolutionary War. (Expression "Not worth a Continental" comes from that experience.) They knew full well, the new U.S. Constitution must provide for a sound money system free of fiat currency. A sound monetary system based on coin (yes ONLY metallic coins with intrinsic value) will protect individuals from banking trickery. This system dove- tails beautifully with protecting individual liberties.
I submit, if we had a sound monetary system, many of our financial problems today would be manageable. Yes, term limits, campaign reform, balanced budget, etc. are important considerations .
Thanks again for your post.
Best Wishes.
Lincoln tried to set up a sound monetary system ... and was assassinated. That ended that discussion.
Andrew Jackson set up a sound monetary system ... and suffered an attempted assassination. It was handed back to a private bank shortly after he left office.
Woodrow Wilson handed the monetary system to the private Fed under threats and subterfuge.
Kennedy allegedly was in the process of restoring a sound monetary system when he was assassinated.
Recognise a pattern anywhere here?
I see a loose pattern over a two hundred year period. I also see a world at this point where I could be killed for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I see a two front war in the ME where other men are being killed and crippled every day.
I think we have to stop excusing cowardice in our leaders on the grounds of natural fears of being killed, or "assassinated" as we call it in the case of the famous set.
Continuing this meme provides them an "out" that they don't deserve. If you can't handle the fucking heat, don't run for office. Life is similarly dangerous for tens of millions of Americans who simply live on the wrong side of the tracks in major cities.
On the other hand, there are millions of guys who are actually drawn to dangerous positions--if the POTUS is truly such a dangerous position, how about we put out the expectation that only fully qualified applicants need apply?
I don't think that's the problem, Bob. The general public simply has no idea of the level of threat that leaders in any field are subjected to ... which is why they simply vote for the most photogenic and fashion-conscious candidates!
The solution (in a statist system) lies not with the public but with the design of the system ... that is, for candidates to be run through a non-partisan ethics committee before being placed on any ballot paper. If allegations of corruption or cronyism were brought to the committee, then they should be properly and openly investigated before any election ... not at an impeachment hearing after the damage has been done!
In business, we call this "reference checking".
IMO, any evidence of cowardice in a leader should preclude them from office. Any evidence that they had broken any previous campaign promise should preclude them from office. Any evidence that they had been influenced by a pressure group should preclude them from office. Any evidence that they had misused a previous position of power to enrich themselves should preclude them from office. This is a long way from the present situation -- where known slimeballs with track records of corruption, cronyism and cowardice are both proposed and elected to the presidency (Clinton, Bush and Obama).
In any event, a smart and courageous leader would counteract any threats. I have often been threatened in both my personal and professional life and they neither bother me (because I expect it) nor divert me in the least (because I can counteract them). The only thing you need to remember is: "When you speak to the mafia, you must speak in a language they understand". The sentence: "Please stop, or I'll call the police!" is swahili to them.
All bullies are cowards underneath and they fear being hurt ... which is exactly why they threaten to hurt others. You just need to "get their attention first", and warn them of the consequences to them and theirs of carrying out their threats. True leaders are not afraid of being hurt (more correctly, they are confident of being able to deal with threats) and generally don't use threats as a means of persuasion.
As you said: "If you can't handle the fucking heat, don't run for office."
For example, I'm aware of two bloggers who have been threatened by TPTB with incredibly vile consequences for continuing to spread the truth. One immediately shut down his blog while the other just ramped up the rhetoric -- and presumably threatened to name names if the threats continued. I know which one would be a better leadership candidate.
I agree. I think the sound monetary system should be the 4th branch of government. To protect us from accounting frauds in the government and in the business sector. These megabanks have cost us our republic. If it happens one time, it could be a fluke, if it happens 2 times, it's a problem of systems, and it's going to happen again unless the system itself deals with these cyclical events.
I'm sure there's more to it than that, but that for sure is a good place to start. We need to hedge in these elites so they can't play with people's money and pay off our elected people.
This 'deregulation' has only allowed the criminals to thrive. We need a cop on the beat. In any market, you have to have people that stop fraud from happening. Without the cop on the beat, there's fraud, and when there's fraud, there's no trust. If there's no trust, there's no transaction or exchange.
ooo...someone junky, no post commentary...?
lol, musta touched a "delusion threatened" point with someone...
I beg to differ.
Come 2014, socialist healthcare becomes something more than a nebulous future thing. Stand by.
Noticed you made the same post on the MW site under the handle DrGreenspan.
Yep, it's BabyBop - troll extraordinaire.
There is a not-so-subtle difference between watching snow piling onto a steep mountainside above you and saying: "There's going to be an avalanche here soon ... so let's move our camp out of the way right now!" versus saying: "I've seen a few avalanches before and I predict there's going to be an avalanche here at 3pm tomorrow afternoon, so let's just sit around here chatting until 2:55pm tomorrow"!
We all know where the jobless, gutted-manufacturing, zero-private-sector-investment economy is going if Banana Ben just keeps emptying helicopter loads of fresh bills into the banksters' pockets. Some analysts, like Max Keiser and others, were pointing out the systemic fraud and policy failures 4 or more years ago (see Max here in 2006) ... while others, like you, won't recognise it until the whole shebang comes crashing down on your head.
So, the question is when, not if, the "big event" will happen. Ben could keep playing at the controls for another 2 years while we sit idly by (his plan), or the sucker could collapse tomorrow (due to "unforeseen circumstances" ... which we could attempt to engineer).
By all means keep trading right up to "the day of the event" ... but if the event coincides with a bank holiday and market suspension, then you will lose all paper investments on that day. (I know how it feels ... I lost over $500k on October 19, 1987 because I heard of the crash late in the day and could do nothing until the next day).
Dont forget this
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-26/mortgages-to-drop-below-1-trillion-in-2011-to-least-since-1996.html
380 comments, dang! TOugh for them to keep a lid on this pressure cooker, theyre dealing with people homes and investments! Yea they want answers, and they want em NOW!
What we need is a demonstration. Here's my thoughts:
1. We need 100 people that have pledged to stop paying criminals by stopping their mortgage payments
2. Those 100 people unite in one place (preferably in New York, in front of their big buildings. This is their power center) to take their mortgage contracts down to the local big bank and stand in front of the bank
3. Contact 3 news stations to let them know of the demonstration (also have 3 people with their own cameras record the event)
4. Those 100 people then rip up their contracts in front of the bank and in front of the cameras - telling the cameras "we will not pay another dime to criminals" and then look at the cameras and tell the elected officials watching to "stop the looting and start prosecuting"
5. Have those 3 people recording the event upload the videos to youtube.com, flickr.com, vimeo.com all the places where it's possible to upload video. And copy and paste those videos to any and all social networks.
Rinse and repeat.
Every week for every month until the bank criminals, and all those that perpetuated the fraud, are in jail.
No violence necessary. Just straight up "opt-out" of this contract.
I love zerohedge policy.
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I love zerohedge policy.
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cheap hosting
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