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Fukushima Update: Reactor 1 Core Now At 380 Degrees Celsius, 80 More Than Normal Running Temperature
The latest news from Japan is not the radiation has now been found in various leaf vegetables in Fukushima, including cabbage and parsley: after all that was to be expected following the radioactive rain of the past few days. The news this time comes straight from TEPCO which finally admits that the temperature of Reactor 1 is 380-390 Celsius (715-735 Fahrenheit), which apparently is a "worry" as the reactor was meant to run at a temperature of 302 C (575 F). That is when the reactor is fully operational, not when it is supposed to be in a cold shut down mode.
From Reuters:
Hidehiko Nishiyama, the deputy-director general of Japan's nuclear safety agency, later said the smoke at reactor No.3 had stopped and there was only a small amount at No.2.
He gave no more details, but a TEPCO executive vice president, Sakae Muto, said the core of reactor No.1 was now a worry with its temperature at 380-390 Celsius (715-735 Fahrenheit).
"We need to strive to bring that down a bit," Muto told a news conference, adding that the reactor was built to run at a temperature of 302 C (575 F).
Asked if the situation at the problem reactors was getting worse, he said: "We need more time. It's too early to say that they are sufficiently stable."
As was reported only on Zero Hedge so far, the termal imagery from Fukushima indicates that if reactor one is a "worry", then reactor 3 should be a "nightmare", as according to some it is now "operating" north of 500 degrees celsius, and possibly as high as a 1,000. That's three times what it is designed to withstand.
From yesterday:
h/t TH
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Temporature - there is a typo.
I see it was corrected, nm. Also, do not see the images...
Works now - thanks!
A little help, please.
Is reactor #3 the one with the plutonium?
5% plutonium, 95% other, 100% Mox.
Plutonium fuel is called MOX. Errr, ok.
At this point, POX would be more apt.
And that's the shit that's really fucking bad. And that's what's in #3? Fuck...
The only real problem with MOX is that it melts at a lower temperature. However, that is a moot point now since it is all but documented that most if not all of these things have suffered fuel element damage.
Pu is too heavy to make it anywhere in significant quantities other than the local environment or the pacific where it will be dispersed widely and end up in sediment and a few million tuna.
The local land is already fubar due to the strontium and the surrounding prefectures including Tokyo have already had a blanket of caesium and iodine on them. There is no point in worrying about Pu because it as a problem is dwarfed by sr90 and cs137 and the cleanup measures are effectively the same.
I will add however, that Pu is hot. In terms of decay alone pu238's decay heat is over 500w/kg. That's great for generating power, but not so good when the collant pumps are broken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOX_fuel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium
I also wonder how fast concrete will dry if they poor it on something that's 1000 degrees? :)
That's near the temperature of lava :)
HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN VULCANO FUKUSHIMA STYLE!!
Pu stinks...there, I said it...
Well played. It would have been disappointing if no one said it.
Fuku. There. I said it.
Plutonium is too heavy to make it anywhere in significant quantities other than the local environment or the pacific where it will be dispersed widely and end up in sediment and a few million tuna.
Zero Hedge, it's like Wonkette without the stupid part.
Not many tuna close in to Japan anymore, I don't think, but if Pu gets concentrated like Mercury, then it will eventually end up at the top of the food chain.
I suggest stocking up on tuna, sardines, and fish oil.
Plutonium can be transported as an aerosol and while this is not likely in a reactor fire environment, the quantities involved here make it a serious issue.
Article on nuclear weapon accidents and plutonium dispersal.
http://mvramana.yolasite.com/resources/pu_dispersal_curr_sci.pdf
Protip: any matter that is elemental can be transported, even globally. Elements are small from a molecular standpoint even when they are 'heavy' in the periodic table. Mercury is notorious for global aerosol transport. For plutonium the key factor is oxidation. It's harder to oxidize than mercury. But that's a chemical property, not because it's 'heavy'.
You're right. I'm sure density has nothing to do with it. It's only the size of the atoms that matters. This is why when I chop wood, bits of my axe end up in Azerbaijan.
Not buying global aersol dispersal on a metal denser than gold and tungsten
From a paper out of Lawrence Berkeley Lab which sought to reassure people that 'not that many' people would die from plutonium aerosol from a terrorist weapon--BECAUSE THE WIND WOULD TRANSPORT IT BEYOND THE CITY.
Maroons.
"Falling at 0.3 centimeters per second, particles from the top of a one-kilometer-high cloud would take almost 93 hours to reach the ground. It is hard to imagine that the contaminated air would remain over a city for so long. Even a light breeze (5 km/hr) would carry the cloud beyond a city the size of Munich (20 km x 20 km) in a few hours.
If there were no evacuation, no filtering of air by being inside, and if the cloud did not migrate beyond the city, the population could inhale 80 milligrams of plutonium (0.0002 milligrams per cubic meter x 1 cubic meter per hour x 93 hours x 4300) in 93 hours, which would result in about 960 cancer deaths (12 cancers per milligram x 80 milligrams = 960), in addition to the 860 cancer deaths one expects (20% of the population), from other causes, among 4300 people."
Pushi...Anyone?
Disaster prone Indonesia wants to build 4 nukes plants......bad idea....
http://nakedempire2.blogspot.com/
Wouldn't be so bad if they would use a pebble bed reactor.
Although it just struck me that these plants should have a second line of defense in the form of a tungsten container that would catch any meltdown, and be quickly and easily sealable. I don't think tungsten would melt even at critical temperatures.
Quick, somebody call Ft. Knox!
makes me want to say waaaaaaah
Everything will be fine tomorrow before premarket...guaranteed. Notice the article is from Reuters. Never trust a Reuters or AP article without questioning their motives. How long has this Fukushitma been going on now? And they're still working like stickmen in the mud? This problem could have been minimized if they brought in the Germans and/or the Russians...OK...and maybe a few from China. They're fucking idiots and its probably because the US is telling them what to do. Why would that be? Sorry no freebies....do your research!
Yep, it's all glow in the dark green shoots as far as the pump monkeys are concerned.
Yep
Yes. Still not entirely clear if there was any plutonium in the storage pool there, though. If there was it wouldn't have been much because the MOX fuel was only loaded relatively recently.
Irrelevant. There is plutonium in every irradiated fuel assembly. Unit 3 has it in fresh assemblies (MOX - mixed oxide).
As for temperatures, while water can be added, without a cooling system to remove heat where does it go?
i would say it changes form and flies the fuk outa there, iso-topically speaking...
Looking at the SPX I'd say unicorns come and piss on the reactor, causing it to instantly turn into little fluffy snowflakes which rise up into outer space.
It has been said something as small as the flutter of Bernank's willy can ultimately cause a tsunami halfway around the world.
I just find endless amusement from the BBG public (sheeple) cite. Despite all of this, here is the current list of video commentary on the landing page:
1) Buffett says US economy getting better every month.
2) Mobius Says He's Bullish on South Africa Investment
3) Guy LeBas says Inflation is a Good Thing
I've been mentioning this in other threads today, but I just can't get over the mainstream financial media. They are the essential wingnut that holds this whole ponzi scheme together.
Hey Bloomberg,
FCK You ASSWPE <GO>
that may very well be deserved. they did take the fed to the supreme court and won recently regarding making public some of the loans the fed made to banks in 2008, which may be modestly helpful.
Cody is correct. Chart of the reaction in normal fuel at this link:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf15.html
US has 71,000 tons of Nuclear waste.......and no place to put it....
http://nakedempire2.blogspot.com/
what about Japan
ITS CALLED MOX! The most unstable fuel used! Also used for weapons! WHOA! NO wonder they looked so worried!
Those workers bring a whole new meaning to the word kamikazi!
All reactors produce plutonium as a waste product - the MOX however is a industrial recycling of this waste into a new fuel vessel
Burn it burn it all...............................
Too hot in the hot tub!
eddie murphy style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLY7Ry17C9A
It keeps getting worse.
How will we know when it's about to enter an 'unstable stage?'
Is there a specific temperature?
And just so I have this right, number 1 at Daiichi has the normal 'kill you real bad' nuclear fuel, and number 3 at Daiichi has the 'and shit in your skull' nuclear fuel, right?
Edit - The heat map is now up. Look at the pretty colors, especially at Number 3.
Is Number 2 on fire?
It will be 1370-1400 Degrees Celcius
That is the melting point of schedule 316 and 316L stainless steel that the containment vessel is made from.
So they should probably do something before it hits that level?
Or just raise the level. If the Japanese peasants will buy that Malarkey, then what's steel going to do about it.
rofl
When all else fails, raise the limit! ;) KAMAKAZI HO!
Well they mis-spoke when they said the containment vessel was steel.
<One hurried check of a metallurgy book later>
It's a bad-ass alloy made of steel, tungsten and zirconium. Good for up to 100,000 degrees centigrade. They make comets out of this shit. You could look it up. <seriously DON'T look it up.>
Where do they sell comets? I've been looking to buy one. Then all my other moonbat buddies who don't believe a word of the shit they've been hearing and I can eat a couple ounces of shrooms, emasculate our selves, and ride our new comet to a world where unicorns actually do shit Skittles.
if you're going to get to meet skittles, the last thing you want to be is emasculated.
It's like watching paint dry, not having a live feed.
Nuclear, molten, bubbling radioactive paint.
hi, TIS; above you ask: is # 2 on fire? although that depends on what the meaning of "on fire" is, is, i would say that we do know that smoke is puring outa the hole in the side caused by a "pressure venting" last week, and that "something" is hotter'n the hinges of Hades, in camera, there.
It's not looking good.
I'm no fancy engineer or firefighter extraordinaire, but building No. 2 definitely looks like it's on fire, given the absolute eveneness of the IR pattern throughout the structure.
The heat from the reactor vessel, containment and the spent fuel pool is not being removed due to the failure of cooling systems. Since warm air rises, it is being evenly distributed at higher elevations inside the reactor building. Depending on the ability of the thermal imaging system to discern variations in such a wide heat field, it is somewhat positive that there is no significant heat in more discrete locations, such as the spent fuel pool, reactor vessel or containment.
You can't make this shit up. Nobody else reporting today.
National Public Radio: "On Tuesday, the International Atomic Energy Agency said the facility continues to emit radiation, but it says the source of the leak is unclear. The agency says it believes Japanese officials have been unable to get close enough to determine whether the radiation is coming from leaks in the reactor cores themselves or from the pools that contain spent fuel rods."
Red skies at night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0UdECznPME&feature=related
Einstein your brilliant got any ideas
If you are addressing me, my name is not Einstein.
But I did stay with your mother at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
It's ok Japan/TEPCO will just rewrite the physics regulations of the universe so that steel melts at 3683 degress Kelvin.
Isn' that 3683 Calvin because it appears we have a Hobbes choice here
refresh my memory....how hot was the molten steel at the base of world trade 1 and 2 again?
wasnt it 1400 f?
and from 'only' jet fuel....so imagine what this is gonna do
Charcoal burns at 2100F. There was certainly plenty of carbonaceous material in those buildings to turn into charcoal from burning in the jet fuel.
But hey, it's much easier to blame it on the government, even if it was only tangentially responsible.
bldg 7 had no jet fuel fires
and yet
molten steel was found there too
thermite goes a long way..
jew thermite?
jew thermite?
jew thermite?
Plenty of carbon though. Did you forget already that charcoal burns at 2100F? They used to use it to smelt steel for fucks sake.
Why can't you use your own head?
Time to get rid of your confirmation bias... http://goo.gl/byWQa is definitely not jet fuel nor charcoal...
The last time I saw a piece of steel that size so hot was in a steel mill.
Which used to be fired with charcoal.
Face it, you guys have no proof. You just keep spouting the same refuted crap. Lots of shit happens when you burn a building down with jet fuel. The force of the falling building is enough to grind structural members into dust, leaving you with a bunch of "nanothermite". It proves nothing.
jet fuel, thermite - whatever
"How will we know when it's about to enter an 'unstable stage?'"
When the Légion étrangère swarms all over Libya to divert attention. After all they sold them that nasty stuff.
Junk away, but it doesn't seem to be getting "worse". It seems to be one of those things that will be muddled through.
A Katrina here, a Fukushima there, a Fukushima everywhere...
What's the half-life of fantasy?
I want the flash and bang. Give me a mysterious fallout ala "The Road". But as my people say: Sheeyat, theese thangs take time!
A Katrina here, a Fukushima there, a Fukushima everywhere...
Don't forget BP's stunt in the GOM.
""It keeps getting worse.
How will we know when it's about to enter an 'unstable stage?'""
When life becomes upside down...(OT comedy)
http://goodthoughtsgoodwordsgooddeeds.blogspot.com/2011/03/wrong-side-upfilm-short.html
27 Signs That The Nuclear Crisis In Japan Is Much Worse Than Either The Mainstream Media Or The Japanese Government Have Been Telling Us...
http://seenoevilspeaknoevilhearnoevil.blogspot.com/2011/03/27-signs-that-nuclear-crisis-in-japan.html
Nah!
Don't worry everything will be fine !!!!!!!!
TEPCO keyboard/off
Ahm, pray folks.
Cross your fingers and toes while your on it.
yeah, all twelve of 'em...
Hey cool, now there's 13.
PV=nRT
RW, that is the 'ideal gas law'.....there is nothing ideal about this situation.....does this apply to solid nuclear fuels that are in the process of melting down and releasing rads.......
With fixed volume, the "P" or pressure increases directly with temperature in the reactor vessel or containment structure. I'm sure they are designed to withstand quite a bit of overpressure, but the increase is troubling. At this point releasing pressure means releasing radioactive junk.
I think there is a pressure release valve that periodically vents a small ammount of radioactivity with the high pressure gas.
Don't touch their junk!
That looks ideal!
If you wanna be with me
Baby there's a price to pay
I'm a genie in a bottle
You gotta rub me the right way
If you wanna be with me
I can make your wish come true
You gotta make a big impression (Oh yeah)
Gotta like what you do
(I'm a genie in a bottle baby
Gotta rub me the right way honey
I'm a genie in a bottle baby
Come come, come on and let me out)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpPhA1zjxZw
Back atcha Jude
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaFhUvL_C1s
Update:
TEPCO announces revision that states it is perfectly acceptable for reactors to run @ 500-100 degrees celsius. Previous estimations were overly cautious.
Perfunctorily replacing my tinfoil hat with a lead helmut to shield myself from the hurricanes of radioactive bullshit blowing in from the East.
Update updated:
TEPCO announces revision that it is perfectly safe to be exposed to the full alphabetic panoply of radiations ever know to man in unlimited amounts and sometimes survive for even a short while. Previous estimates upon the nuclear threshold condition of the human race have been deemed overly cautious, obsolete and grossly inaccurate as well as intolerably heightening unnecessary concern and panic amongst an already terminally irradiated peoples.
+Fahrenheit 1400 (temp at which human flesh burns)
Thankfully the human toll is worse than the economic toll.
+ ∞ (Γγ)
-Larry
Did I read that right?
Larry Kudlow, CNBC, 3/11/2011
You can probably find it here on ZH too, but here's the clip:
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2011/03/larry-kudlow-devalues-human-life-with-japan-earthquake-freudian-slip.html
Shit, I thought the reference was to Larry Summers. Tee hee.
Oh just throw water on it.
Buy Japanese stocks as they are oversold. Blah blah.
I'm getting a little concerned here.
Safe operating temperature to be increased to 1400 F.
So, who's taking its temperature? Temperature monitoring systems back on line now that power is restored to something? Thermal imaging? Guess?
Thermal imaging of course is measuring IF radiation off various surfaces. If the rods are cooking inside the reactor, only the reactor surface temp is being measured by the thermal imaging. Additionally, IF doesnt pass through water so if you are taking pictures of the storage pools, you will only get the temperature of the water bath. In the event of no water in the pools (and of course no roof over the top if using satallite), you will get the thermal IF from the rods directly.
is measuring IF radiation
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Amend and/or extend Dr. No?
EDIT: IF = InfraRed radiation. The long wavelength stuff recorded on thermal images.
EDIT 2: IR, the above IF should be "IR". too many acronyms here at work.
There have to a certain amount of gamma rays that escape even the most robust containment or subbasement, because they are the most energetic rays, so you would need a gamma ray telescope or observatory.
"so you would need a gamma ray telescope or observatory."
Or any radiation detector operating within the geiger-muller region. But, you must remember that since there is gas-amplification in that region, you can easily push the detector tube into a type of "continuous discharge region", or blind it by effectively overdriving it in very high rad fields. At that point you would need to go to an accident survey meter (high range) that operates in the proportional region. Some of the old style personal dosimeters (accident range) operated in the ion-chamber region for simplicity. So, if you need something like that, here is what I am used to seeing:
http://www.johnsonnuclear.com/Spec%20Sheets/2000w%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf
Given the irregular shapes and differing temps where the pools are located, I'd guess that there is no water then. Or at the least there is no water covering the tops of the rods.
I knew that 128 C number the other day was bs.
How would any of us know that the new numbers aren't bullshit either?
You can't squeak out facts, from unknowns. My eight ball is broken too.
my wag is whatever temp concrete and steel melt at.
+1 taking an IR read of the top of the building/rubble = BS
Of course, the military is going to start announcing such readings daily to "calm the public".
a foot of snow on the roof will hide the problem.
For a very short time.
"a foot of snow on the roof will hide the problem."
If a foot of snow would remain on that roof, then there is no problem.
So what you're basically saying then is that it may be hotter, and that the Japanese Government & TEPCO Reps are putting the lives of untold Japanese in danger by telling them falsehoods that may only serve to delay them getting to safety?
Stop puttingYwords inEmy mouth,Sstranger.!
Actually, they said it. I just read it in the news.
does this also apply to hot woman? how hot should a woman really be? anyone?
being a pyromaniac is a bitch, lately!
The King will have the last word: "I'm a hunka' hunka' burnin' love !"
I like mine at 37C
Definately avoid anything at room temperature.
Assume all of the reactors go. Is all of Japan a wasteland? Part of it? Should I be buying frozen seafood now?
Yes buy all the GOM seafood. It passed the smell test. Good to go.
What's a few degrees among fiends?
Nikkei Futures
Radiation? What radiation?
http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/99er-charts-0
Chernobyl x ... from watching the Video on Chernobyl they were treated to a brilliant display of colors.. deep green, orange, red etc when it blew up. Thick Russian accent..'It vas Beauutiful'
Come on boys, put your shoulder into it.
It sounds like he's talking about the parks and recreation crew promising to try and keep the public toilets a bit cleaner from now on. I recommend this for understatement of the year. Yes, I know it's still early. Early in the meltdown I mean. But it just doesn't get much better than this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZxBRFGdzfU
Sesame Street, 'Trying and Trying Again'
Surely with a long enough extension cord and a garden hose they can get this under control though, right?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this thing is way way way way way worse than anyone outside the gates of Fukashima Daichii knows.
On a side note I have unilaterally decided to further increase the 'safe level' of alcohol consumption at my house tonight.
There is no cause for alarm. I have aspirin just in case.
I say -- I'll drink to that !
Someone probably just left the switch on in #1. It's fine. Hit the off switch, guys, so I can get back happy bullish thinking.
As for what temperature means "unstable"...well from 380 to 500 to maybe even 1000 c...and still not a problem anywhere to be found. Maybe it will be unstable at 2000 c? Surely, not before that.
with all these nomenclature changes, the operators got confused and typed in 302 into the computer thinking this was F....and it turns out it is C.....simple fix....move along now, nothing to see here....
Japanese government just said everything is under control, as usual.
Oh, it's under control, all right. Mother Nature's, that is.
So Chernobyl reactor had a mindblowing 200 tonns of uranium (you only need 5 kilos for a nuke). According to scientists a runaway reaction could have made Europe uninhabitable if it all blew up (yes folks that would be another explosion on top of the one that happened there initially). How much of that staff do they have in the Fukushima reactor? How likely can it blow up again? It sounds like what is happening in Japan is exactly what happened in Chernobyl after the initial core breach took place. They had on CNN that Science Channel prof who said that Chernobyl option is now on the table and the airforce should come in to sandbag those reactors.
I'm fairly certain the Japanese Air Force doesn't have enough aircraft to handle this.
We will no doubt supply planes and helos, but not the pilots.
Another "No Fly" mission for the US.
Cause all 600 Soviet pilots used to sandbag Chernobyl died from radiation. No kidding...
Thnx for that info.
I had always wondered about that, but never saw any nos. regarding survival rates.
Edit--
CNBC reporting the problem with #1, but primarily concerned with supply chain effects.
Point of recognition may not be far off.
I suspect they announce over the weekend that Plan C for "Concrete" goes into effect.
With the spent rod pools being so high in the building, I wonder if it is even possible to bury them without risking a greater accident?
If so, I expect them to keep playing with hoses until the entire thing blows, which will then be blamed upon the supply chain.
As I understand it, the sheer amount of fuel is a big part of the problem. You can bury this stuff as often as you want, but like the undead, it won't stay buried.
hey make that 500 000 poeple who died from the aftermath of Tchernobyl
"all 600 Soviet pilots "
I tip my hat to each and every one of them.
They've wasted 11 days. If it can be encapsualted...whats the fucking hold-up? (I know the answer---the hold up is the cost--->in money and the creation of a permenant radioactive zone).
Or "containment" just can't be done.
My understanding is that a full meltdown would breach the containment vessles and explode into toxic vapor upon hitting the water table - which can't be far down that close to the ocean.
How are you going to "secure" this stuff prior to the process running it its course, absent cooling the cores somehow?
Just "capping" these things now won't work.
this is why they call it "the devil's brew." radioactive material is "always on." i've never understood the idea of "cooling it" as "the solution." again--i'm a know-nothing on nukes but i know "what a periodic table is." the solution is always the same: containment, containment, containment. that "glowing blding #2" strikes me as "concern numero uno" because at least visually it still is a "contained structure." the other three have been utterly destroyed--and with #4 supposedly "shut down" to begin with i'm still unclear how it can explode. i can think of a few "very unfortunate reasons"--in any case "that's so much heat can it even be cooled"? is a legitimate question. in short "that isn't steam emanating from #2." that's "super-heated gas" meeting "air" which "contains water" creating "steam."
The reactors cannot be Chernobylized until they are cooled down to a state of cold shutdown. It's impossible. They are obviously heading for a state of run away criticality, if they aren't there already.
So.... I dunno... a few more garden hoses and extension cords maybe?
Have a cocktail.
I toast you with my third hand.
Next thing you will know, Abercrombie & Fitch will be selling "Nuclear Jeans" for $275 a pop, and it will probably be all the rage by all the Justin Beber fans....
And ANF will probably be trading at new highs by the end of the year.
STFU. Do you even care that people are dying?
We all are dying. Get it?
Not in the Sylvia Plath "we're all dying" way. You're not dying the way Japan back there is dying.
Japan looked the way a free market's skeleton would look if it wore a big smile and walked around acting extra nice to everyone.
Thankfully the human toll is worse than the economic toll.
-Larry Kudlow
Nice FC reference!
hey hey hey, no need to quote Keynes.