GATA Claims To Have Evidence Of "Massive Physical Short Gold And Silver Positions That Can Not Be Covered"

- Alan Greenspan
- Carry Trade
- Central Banks
- Commitment of Traders
- Commodity Futures Trading Commission
- Comptroller of the Currency
- Fail
- Federal Reserve
- Freedom of Information Act
- Goldman Sachs
- JPMorgan Chase
- Market Manipulation
- notional value
- Office of the Comptroller of the Currency
- OTC
- OTC Derivatives
- Precious Metals
- President Obama
- Real Interest Rates
- Robert Rubin
- Securities and Exchange Commission
- Transparency
- Treasury Department
- Wall Street Journal
- Warsh
In a letter to the CFTC's Chairman, Gary Gensler, GATA Chairman William Murphy shares the following bombshell:
"GATA has evidence that there are enormous physical short positions in the gold and silver markets that cannot be covered."
Even as the CFTC is meeting later this month to establish position limits in the gold, silver, and other precious metals' markets, it could be none other than the CFTC's core banks, and Mr. Gensler's former Goldman bosses, that form the very core of the biggest market manipulation collusion syndicate in the history of the commodity markets.
Because of the decades-long interference with the gold market, we estimate that the free-market price of gold is multiples of the current price. Growing stress caused by burgeoning physical bullion demand is threatening to lead to a price explosion, which will restore to the market the balance that regulation has failed to maintain. In our view, the Comex paper market will become dysfunctional, with "force majeure" having to be declared as the concentrated shorts are unable to deliver on their obligations."
If GATA is not bluffing and indeed has evidence of massively uncoverable physical positions, and should this evidence be made public, the repercussions for the price of gold will be unprecedented.
Full GATA letter to ex-Goldmanite, and Brooklandville, MD resident, Gary Gensler:
March 8, 2010
Gary Gensler, Chairman
U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission
3 Lafayette Centre
1155 21st St. NW
Washington, DC 20581
Dear Chairman Gensler:
The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee (GATA) was formed in January 1999 to expose and oppose the manipulation and suppression of the price of gold. What we have learned over the past 11 years is of great importance in regard to the CFTC’s forthcoming hearings regarding position limits in the precious metals futures markets. Our efforts to expose manipulation in the gold market parallel those of Harry Markopolos to expose the Madoff Ponzi scheme to the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Initially we thought that the manipulation of the gold market was undertaken as a coordinated profit scheme by certain bullion banks, like JPMorgan, Chase Bank, and Goldman Sachs, and that it violated federal and state anti-trust laws. But we soon discerned that the bullion banks were working closely with the U.S. Treasury Department and Federal Reserve in a gold cartel, part of a broad scheme of manipulation of the currency, precious metals, and bond markets.
As an executive at Goldman Sachs in London, Robert Rubin developed an idea to borrow gold from central banks at minimal interest rates (around 1 percent), sell the bullion for cash, and use the cash to fund Goldman Sachs' operations. Rubin was confident that central banks would control the gold price with ever-more leasing or outright sales of their gold reserves and that consequently the borrowed gold could be bought back without difficulty. This was the beginning of the gold carry trade.
When Rubin became U.S. treasury secretary, he made it government policy to surreptitiously operate an identical gold carry trade but on a much larger scale. This became the principal mechanism of what was called the "strong-dollar policy." Subsequent treasury secretaries have repeated a commitment to a "strong dollar," suggesting that they were continuing to feed official gold into the market more or less clandestinely to support the dollar and suppress interest rates and precious metals prices.
Lawrence Summers, who followed Rubin as treasury secretary, was an expert in gold's influence on financial markets. Previously, as a professor at Harvard University, Summers co-authored an academic study titled "Gibson's Paradox and the Gold Standard," (see Footnote 1 below) which concluded that in a free market gold prices move inversely to real interest rates, and, conversely, if gold prices are "fixed," then interest rates can be maintained at lower levels than would be the case in a free market. This was the economic theory behind the "strong dollar policy."
Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan understood Summers' research when he remarked at a 1993 meeting of the Federal Open Market Committee:
"I was raising the question on the side with Governor Mullins of what would happen if the Treasury sold a little gold in this market. There's an interesting question here because if the gold price broke in that context, the thermometer would not be just a measuring tool. It would basically affect the underlying psychology." (See Footnote 2 below.)
GATA has collected reams of evidence that Western central bank gold has long been mobilized and surreptitiously dishoarded to rig the gold market and influence related markets and that this rigging has drawn upon the U.S. gold reserves.
President Obama has called for greater transparency in both the federal government and the financial markets. In pursuit of such transparency GATA has made Freedom of Information Act requests to the Federal Reserve and Treasury Department for a candid accounting of their involvement in the gold market, particularly in regard to gold swaps. In a reply to GATA's lawyers dated September 17, 2009, Fed Governor Kevin M. Warsh acknowledged that the Federal Reserve has gold swap agreements with foreign banks but insisted that such documents remain secret. (See Footnote 3 below.)
As a result, last December GATA sued the Federal Reserve in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, seeking access to the Federal Reserve's withheld records of gold swaps.
Understanding that the manipulation of the price of gold is profoundly important to all markets and the American public, on January 31, 2008, GATA placed a full-page color advertisement in The Wall Street Journal at a cost of $264,000. (See Footnote 4 below.) GATA's ad warned, "This manipulation has been a primary cause of the catastrophic excesses in the markets that now threaten the whole world." What GATA warned against has come to pass.
GATA has long implicated the New York Commodities Exchange (Comex) as being a mechanism by which gold and silver price suppression is implemented. The smoking gun is the excessive concentration of bullion bank positions in the gold and silver futures markets. This concentration enables market manipulation -- just as market concentration was the justification offered by the CFTC in 1980 when it acted against the Hunt Brothers in the silver market.
The weekly commitment of traders report documents the total net short position of commercial traders in the commodity markets. The monthly bank participation reports disclose the holdings of U.S. banks in various markets. In a letter to GATA dated February 19, 2009, Laura Gardy, a CFTC legal assistant, wrote, "The commission determined that where the number of banks in each reporting category is particularly small, fewer than four banks, there exists the potential to extrapolate both the identity of individual banks and the banks' positions. As a result, as of December 2009 the CFTC no longer names the number of banks when it is less than four."
The CFTC has been investigating possible manipulation of the silver market for more than a year, so this reporting change is disturbing to us, as it reduces transparency and the ability to uncover market manipulation.
The CFTC's own reports of November 2009 show that just two U.S. banks held 43 percent of the commercial net short position in gold and 68 percent of the commercial net short position in silver. In gold, these two banks were short 123,331 contracts but long only 523 contracts, and in silver they were short 41,318 contracts and long only 1,426 contracts. How improbable is it that these two banks attract most of the investors who want only to sell short? (See Footnote 5 below.)
It has been possible to extrapolate that the two banks that hold these large manipulative short positions on the Comex are JPMorgan Chase and HSBC because of their huge positions in the OTC derivatives market, whose regulator, the U.S. Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, does not provide anonymity when it publishes market data. 6 In the first quarter 2009 OCC derivatives report, JPMorgan Chase and HSBC held more than 95 percent of the gold and precious metals derivatives of all U.S. banks, with a combined notional value of $120 billion. This concentration dwarfs the concentration in the gold and silver futures markets and should raise great concern about the lack of position limits on the Comex.
It is also disturbing to us that HSBC is the custodian for the major gold exchange-traded fund, GLD, and that JPMorgan Chase is the custodian for the major silver exchange-traded fund, SLV. It is a significant material omission to fail to disclose to GLD and SLV investors that the custodian banks of the two exchange-traded funds have an interest in falling prices in the futures and derivatives markets.
Detailed daily monitoring of gold trading reveals these patterns:
1. In recent years gold price suppression has been apparent from the near-complete failure of the gold price to rise more than 2 percent per day on the Comex (what GATA calls the 2 Percent Rule) while there is no corresponding restriction on days when the gold price is falling.
2. At option expiry gold almost always falls to a point where a large number of call options have been written, nullifying the value of the options. Typically, the price rallies immediately after option expiration.
3. The gold price consistently falls at 3 a.m. New York time when the gold cartel’s traders report to work in London, and again following the PM gold price fix, when physical market pricing has concluded for the day, and in the access market following the Comex close.
No other market trades so repetitively.
GATA has evidence that there are enormous physical short positions in the gold and silver markets that cannot be covered. Because of the decades-long interference with the gold market, we estimate that the free-market price of gold is multiples of the current price. Growing stress caused by burgeoning physical bullion demand is threatening to lead to a price explosion, which will restore to the market the balance that regulation has failed to maintain. In our view, the Comex paper market will become dysfunctional, with "force majeure" having to be declared as the concentrated shorts are unable to deliver on their obligations.
We urge the CFTC to report fully and candidly on these markets and take appropriate action.
Sincerely,
WILLIAM J. MUPRHY III, Chairman
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.
... Footnotes:
1. "Gibson's Paradox Revisited: Professor Summers Analyzes Gold Prices" by Reginald H. Howe. http://www.goldensextant.com/
2. http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/files/FOMC19930518meeting.p...
3. http://www.gata.org/files/GATAFedResponse-09-17-2009.pdf
4. http://www.gata.org/node/wallstreetjournal
5. http://www.cftc.gov/dea/bank/deanov09f.htm
6. http://www.gata.org/node/7307
h/t Jeff
-
- Login or register to post comments
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend

on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:14
#258291
The question is always: what is going to be done about it?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:27
#258310
I'm with you Harbourcity, game on, show us the cards, we want the evidence.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:06
#258364
Even if it's true, if we assume that tons of people aren't going to simultaneously want physical delivery, such deception could go on indefinitely.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:19
#258388
IIRC the Comex rules allows it to settle in shares of GLD. Then you can try to get physical from GLD, and good luck with that.
I'm not sure how much manipulation may or may not be happening but I know some writers have talked about having a separate physical spot price and paper spot price sometime in the future.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:18
#258616
OUCH!!!!
Janet Tavakoli: Washington Must Ban U.S. Credit Derivatives as Traders Demand Gold
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article17744.html
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:23
#258791
Thanks for this link. As with everything that has come before, once again it appears there are plenty of people "in the know."{
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:07
#259015
I guess this means gold really IS money after all. Do the radical dollar bugs have a reply?
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 14:03
#259354
Not a $ bug per se but, he who makes the "gold", makes the rules.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:18
#258707
IIRC there was a change very recently that allows GLD to pay out in cash if they can't deliver, thus no one will get physical. Here's your little bits of green paper! Those in the know have been harping for years about this scenario. Physical is the only way to own. If this goes viral then coin shops will be over run (read: empty) in the near term. I know what I'm doing tomorrow...
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 02:19
#258898
Physical from the ETF GLD? Yes, good luck with that. Is it tungsten or gold? How many "investors" share the same serial numbered bar?
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:32
#259032
GLD is an 'unallocated' type paper gold, as such no one gets and solid declaration to claims on a certain bar SN#.
ASK YOURSELF: do you really trust that these ETFs have the gold they claim and GLD's counterparties that store said gold are not leasing it out or creating/forming/leveraging some other paper gold on top of their paper gold. As an example, GLD can hold NOT GOOD bars for proper delivery to the market and they do not insure their gold holding. Add to that, there are many other serious situations one should consider before choosing GLD or other ETFs.
Read GLD's 10-k filing at www.spdrgoldshares.com/media/GLD/file/10k_Sept08.pdf and pay special attention to pages 54 to 62.
Bottom line, if you want to invest in gold i would do as GLD's largest shareholder did months ago.... they sold their GLD holdings and purchased physical metal and took delivery. In this day and age counterparty risk is to be avoided imho.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 03:15
#258931
Can someone please point me to a concrete link that shows that Comex can deliver GLD instead of a good delivery bar? I have nosed around the CME website and others looking at delivery requirements documents, etc. and can find no mention of this.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 05:43
#258958
I too am looking for a concrete link. I did come across this:
http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2009/12/gold-comex-and-exchange...
where they show "Delivery Cash Settled". But I still have not found whether or not the buyer can require physical settlement or what options the seller has.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:03
#259010
http://www.cmegroup.com/clearing/trading-practices/efp-ebf-efr-trades.html
Generally acceptable related position instruments EFRPs include, but are not limited to, the following:
Metals Contracts: For metals contracts, the acceptable related position component for an EFP is limited to the specific underlying commodity ( e.g. Gold for Gold Futures); although the related position need not be deliverable grade of the particular commodity, there must be a reasonable level of correlation with the associated futures. The related position in an EFR or EOO may be a swap or OTC swap/option instrument. Exchange Traded Funds ("ETFs") are acceptable provided that the ETF mirrors the relevant Exchange metal product.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 09:48
#259077
I am not very knowledgeable about futures, but it appears that these types of trading instruments (ERFPs) are different from the regular futures contracts. " All these transactions are privately negotiated trades transacted outside of the competitive marketplace but submitted for clearing through the CME Clearing House." If some folks in negotiating privately with others opt to consider delivery of GLD as a substitute, that is quite different from the exchange giving itself GLD as a delivery option for a regular gold futures contract.
This doesn't seem like a smoking gun from my perspective, but then again, futures aren't my bailiwick.
I can't see that anyone seeking a longer term investment in gold would agree to delivery of GLD in a private arrangement, as the prospectus clearly states that much of the gold that they hold is not subject to audit - normally a big red flag for someone who wants to invest in a hard asset with some reasonable degree of security. So I am assuming that the ERFP parties are shorter term traders.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:04
#259012
http://www.marketskeptics.com/2009/07/no-transparency-or-honesty-in-usuk...
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 10:13
#259098
Interesting article with much of the same material as some of the Rob Kirby articles, but this time with references to the source of the claims.
This part really stood out:
"Such gives the bullion depositor ("Authorized Participant") the ability to make profit at a "Commodity" taxable rate rather than a higher "collectible" tax rate, which was adjudged to be applicable to GLD. The Prospectus specifically acknowledges that the Authorized Participants may be engaged in bullion trade and have trading desks."
I'm not saying there isn't manipulation in the gold market, but these vehicles appear to be a different animal than the regular futures contracts, and it looks like they may be operating more as a legal tax dodge for profits from trading short-term movements in gold prices.
I certainly understand that if a number of countries have unsustainable fiscal policies (OECD front and center), and yet don't do anything to rectify those policies, their currencies most likely will be poor choices as a store of wealth. But stories such as the one referenced don't seem to support the broad-based claims made. I just want the facts, and it's amazing how hard they are to find sometimes.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:39
#258417
The gold merchants in Florence in the Middle Ages invented fractional reserve lending when they realized that only a fraction of the gold they stored for others was ever needed for physical delivery.Fast forward to the present day and you can see why CBs manipulate the price of gold to prop up their fiat currencies.No secret here but how long can they keep it up?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:11
#258779
.
Deception cannot go on indefinitely. Entropy is the law of Darwin, and the law of physics. Some forms of "money" are a few hundred years old, and some are several thousand. On a long enough time line -hedge your bets boys.
This one is for you Deadhead....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVsSKuxyaro&feature=related
Please don't dominate the rap, jack, if you've got nothing new to say
If you please, don't back up the track, this train's got to run today
I spent a little time on the mountain, I spent a little time on the hill
I saw things gettin outta hand, I guess they always will
I don't know, but I was told, it's hard to run with the weight of gold
On the other hand I've done heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead
...
One way or another, one way or another,
One way or another, this darkness got to give
.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 02:20
#258892
And some currencies are only about 40 years old, like the current one we are using in the States.
The Federal Reserve Note is only about 40 years old. It replaced the Silver Certificate.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:13
#258782
.
Deception cannot go on indefinitely. Entropy is the law of Darwin, and the law of physics. Some forms of "money" are a few hundred years old, and some are several thousand. On a long enough time line -hedge your bets boys.
This one is for you Deadhead....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVsSKuxyaro&feature=related
Please don't dominate the rap, jack, if you've got nothing new to say
If you please, don't back up the track, this train's got to run today
I spent a little time on the mountain, I spent a little time on the hill
I saw things gettin outta hand, I guess they always will
I don't know, but I was told, it's hard to run with the weight of gold
On the other hand I've done heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead
...
One way or another, one way or another,
One way or another, this darkness got to give
.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:26
#258474
Seriously---Have you ever seen a more open and shut case of collusion and FRAUD?
This goes beyond incompetence, this is GO TO JAIL straight up CRIME by the CFTC and the banking cartels they are trying to protect.
This cover up must end!
Thank you for reporting on this most-important story Zero Hedge!
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:44
#258571
crap
i remember when the physical AU could not be delivered and they then changed the rules that USD would suffice. this was a long time ago and GATA tried the same speil.
wakey wakey, the markets are made of paper as is the USD .. like for like
feel as though history is repeating itself and nothing will change!
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:16
#258788
There was a default in the Nickel contract at the LME in 2007, when the shorts (read: City bankers and traders) couldn't deliver physical metal to the real consumers running real factories. Result: the LME suspended physical settlements. In other words, the exchange engineered a default in its own contract. Foxes...henhouses...
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 04:30
#258944
Similar situation in 2008 on COMEX on gold.
I took a bath.
Needless to say once bitten twice shy!
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:19
#259023
The question is always: what is going to be done about it?
Keep taking delivery.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:22
#258299
Yipes!
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:22
#258300
Tungsten is looking better and better.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:42
#258422
Good call. The demand for Tungsten is about to skyrocket.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:25
#258304
China are you LISTENING ?
Russia are you LISTENING ?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:28
#258402
uh, considering that these two countries have both invited GATA (China more than once) to present their findings to them and as they have both indicated publicly their desire to increase gold reserves going forward I think it can be said that they dont need to be 'listening' - they already did and have been acting on it.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:26
#258307
schnikes!
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:27
#258309
Gold Von Mises!!!
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:30
#258311
Gensler is a HEADFAKE !
Take physical delivery and let them run against the wall.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:37
#258320
Why complain to one syndicate boss about another when you don't sit at the table? Only solution is have a global coordinated scheme motivating everyone to convert all their paper assets into gold and silver at roughly around the same time period. That will expose and ultimately fix a lot of problems quickly.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:14
#258379
No personal experience, but I understand that criticizing syndicate bosses is a most unhealthy activity.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:27
#259028
This is a side benefit of my keeping some of my assets in dollars and dollar-denominated crap: it gives me the ability to, in my own miniscule way, contribute to the run on the dollar when it occurs in earnest. I am also going through the motions of the IRA withdrawal process so that I understand how it works and can make it work for me at the apprpopriate time.
Anytime a bank pisses me off, I take some money out of the banking system. It's fun!
on Wed, 03/10/2010 - 07:39
#260407
Now that's what I call voting.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:37
#258321
Because of the decades-long interference with the gold market, we estimate that the free-market price of gold is multiples of the current price.
I have waited so long to hear this. I would think that this is a good time to buy gold. Oh boy this is going to be good. Time to pass some legislation in the interest of National Financial Security. Better get that tungsten out.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 13:17
#259295
And incandescent light bulbs, the biggest user of tungsten, are bing phased out by force of law... coincidence?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:40
#258322
What are these GATA guys complaining about? It sounds like the banekrs are willing to sell them all the gold they want at a fraction of honest market prices.
Why dont they just load up the truck and revel in their shiny hoards of coins?
Oh wait, you mean they want FRNs? I'm so confused....
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:54
#258511
I think along the same lines. If prices are manipulated lower (and the physical IS available)....then BUY IT! I happen to believer there is too much smoke here and there is a "gold cartel" attempting to keep PM prices low.
Why not simply take advantage and accumulate the physical?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:24
#258713
They have been. why do you think they took out a $250K+ ad in the national rag? Their boat is FULL. Now it is time to get those nervous paper holders to seek delivery. GAME OVER.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 14:39
#259410
Bingo. If you truly believe, then this is a gift. There is so much cloak and dagger, that I have trouble figuring out who is trying to sell what to whom.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 02:16
#258897
These guys have been 'all in' for years.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:47
#258328
No manipulation scheme can go on forever; none ever has. When this one blows up, the principals in the scheme will be exposed including the FED, the US Treasury, & other central bankers. Treason perhaps after it is all laid out or was it done for the common good?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:27
#258401
When this one blows up, it will only be AFTER our caring and concerned government has, once again, made holding of gold an illegal act. Once it has the gold collected up, I will guess that we have another reset in the $ valuation, subsequently an enormous increase in gold valuation. Timing is everything.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:03
#258521
The dollar is no longer backed by gold, so there is really no legal point in outlawing the hoarding of gold. When we came off the gold standard, then it became lawful once again to hoard gold, because there was no good reason not to allow hoarding. That there still exists a notional/emotional
tie between the two is to the consternation of bankers, who see a self-interest in keeping the supposed value of fiat paper high. So it gets manipulated, when in theory there should be no good reason for it.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:25
#258793
.
No good reason except ~ 6,000 years of history
.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 01:41
#258876
I think his point was that as soon as the US stated openly it actually NEEDED it's citizen's gold, it would instantly be GAME OVER for the dollar. The whole point of the USD is that it requires (and explicitly has) NO BACKING other than faith in the good old US of A.
The only reason our government would ever need gold would be if it was forced to make payment in it.
That would therefore mean that the US dollar would have to already be dead.
If the US dollar is dead, the USA is dead.
If the USA is dead, who is going to pay the cops or soldiers to put their lives on the line trying to steal your gold?
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:30
#259029
I think they call that a "Catch-22".
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 11:24
#259164
Bingo.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 14:47
#259421
Meh. Once bitten....The naivete of blindly turning in gold FDR will not be repeated on such a large scale. Logistics make it impossible. You have to prove that I have something that was paid for in cash. Economic shakeouts will more likely be applied (taxes, joblessness, etc.).
Even if they did, there is still silver, which exists in legal tender form. You gonna outlaw dimes, and quarters?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:47
#258329
I'm sure Gary Gensler is going to get right on that.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:48
#258330
GATA and the gold bugs have been making this same argument for years, and so far there is no evidence to support them.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:51
#258434
If I intentionally ignore evidence, can I pretend it does not exist too?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:54
#258442
+ 1.0 x 10^23
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:56
#258445
the evidence is volumns
the sorry state of those who prefer to grovel at the feet of pavlovian keynesian gruel is legion
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:34
#258487
The facts always irritate the Keynesian ball-lickers.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:57
#258514
Why does a Keynesian lick his balls?
Because.............
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:56
#258590
To get the taste of gold out of his mouth . . .
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:03
#258684
LAMO!!
+31.105
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:59
#258763
"Keynesian ball-lickers" is an overestimation of their mental abilities... they are simply lazy dumb shits.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:01
#258682
What do you need? A letter from Bernacke himself?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:49
#258333
I thought the current overabundance of tungsten was enough evidence for serious rocketing of the gold price soon.I also believe gold is worth much more than the current price.I am personally certain the price is held down so people do not realize how worthless the fiat currencies are.
At a point, one realizes the entire monetary system is a fraud, and a fraud that has intrinsic to it's design the purposes to steal money from the productive and to concentrate power into the hands of a tiny few.
In America, I wonder if a revolution will happen beacause of the growing evidence that TPTB have interests inimical to everyone, indeed even to life itself.
System fail....coming fast.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:56
#258344
No Revolution Here - the only thing that seems to get people in this country riled up enough to take to the streets is whether gays can be legally married or not. Anyway - who has time to Revolt in a time where we have American idol on three nights a week? Priorities You Know.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:59
#258515
Those already in the Matrix will fight to remain within the Matrix.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 03:06
#258928
The red pill isn't for everybody.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 06:17
#258971
Then people who have taken the blue pill must come to grips with the idea that the blue pill takers could harm you. This can mean family and friends.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 09:31
#259061
You mean the people that have taken the red pill.
I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. This is not a subject that can be digested in sound bites or talking points. So to a blue pill junkie, you sound like a raving lunatic.
Here's a litmus test to determine if someone is a blue pill popper. When in conversation, listen for two critical buzz phrases that betray their zombiesque idiocy...
Well, they say...
I hear that experts said...
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:10
#258533
I think Crystal Bowersox will win it this season.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:46
#258746
The flouride in our water acts as a mild sedative.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:32
#259031
who drinks tap water?
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 09:33
#259065
The death camps in Nazi Europe flouridated the hell out their water supplies to keep the jews docile and stupid. The camps did it in much higher doses than we have in the states. Nevertheless, flourine is one of the most toxic elements in nature.
But hey, it's good for your teeth!!!
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 14:52
#259431
and uranium processing
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 21:35
#260086
UF6
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:55
#258443
TPTB will only be happy until they achieve full world domination. When they are the only ones walking the Earth will they stop. "Soylent Green" is probably not too far-fetched for these guys. I hope they choke on my asshole when they get to me.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:04
#258601
I'm trying to figure out if "eat me" took on a new meaning with that, or is that in fact an ancient meaning?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:21
#258626
Nice post, gave me my laugh for the night!
Honestly, this is probably our chance to stock up. Things are starting to crumble everywhere. Tax receipts are fractions of what the budgets planned for. I'm in NH and our unemployment is only around 7% but because of the crappy economy people are not spending their money. It's funny, to make the economy run we have to be as f***ed up as the government is and spend our asses off with no common sense. The only people making money are the top 2-3% and they don't give a shit who they crap on to get it. Get long gold and silver, guns and ammo, and Spam, just watch out for the assholes.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 15:03
#259451
Let's take your average Rockefeller. If they are the only type walking the earth, who the hell is building their houses, fetching their water, farming their food, mining their raw materials? They are totally incapable of such activity.
I could be wrong, but one might think they are smart enough to realize that a few plebes will be necessary to maintain their lavish looting class lifestyle. Till the plebes start breeding.
Just some wildly OT tin. Hopefully though provoking tin.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:53
#258339
The buying power of 1 gold coin is already pretty high.
It basically is enough to buy 2 months of groceries for a family of four. Or to provide 1 weeks wages to a highly compensated employee.
If you actually want to use precious metals to replace fiat currency, I think you'll have to resort to silver.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:39
#258416
There's less silver than gold and it's far harder to store. I agree that we'll never go back to solely a gold standard but there is something to be said about a basket currency including gold where gold contributes to stability (after this gold manipulation is resolved mind you).
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:59
#258350
If this manipulation has truly been detected, why isn't GATA making a killing trading off of it? If gold moves so predictably, they should be able to make massive bucks trading against it.
Especially the part about gold predictably dropping at certain times. What a trading opportunity!
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 01:47
#258879
http://www.theundergroundinvestor.com/2008/10/four-parallel-markets-for-...
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 02:33
#258911
Bill Murphy, et. al., are loaded up on physical gold and silver and on gold and silver mining shares. They have been buying for more than a decade.
GATA realizes many reasons for exposing the cartel, financial being one of them.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:00
#258351
I appreciate the large short-selling banks for subsidizing my purchases. If gold was any higher, a peon like me wouldn't be able to buy much. ~$1000/oz is not much problem though. Reading through the fiscal report of the U.S. for 2009 that came out today, I feel good holding real money instead of fiat.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:06
#258359
So do I. And when demand hits the roof, I plan on showing my appreciation by slamming by serf $#@# up their backsides a la short squeeze.
My holding metal keeps it off the market. Pay up bitches.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:37
#258490
I have to agree with you, I like being able to buy gold so if they are fighting to keep it down then I for one say "Redouble your efforts! Some of us young guys are trying to buy some golden insurance!"
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:02
#258354
This is one of my long-term legs of my investment strategy. Specifically, long-term is:
Water
Agriculture
Precious Metals.
I'm planning on the purchase of another 1,000 ounces of silver next month. On top of that, I'm allocating more capital to be spread across the mining majors, with a minor play in dollar juniors. Basically anything that has the words "silver" or "gold" in it's name.
It's a minor play (a few grand) and basically a bet. The bet is that in the next few years, the COMEX busts, PMs skyrocket, and the sheeple pile in. The have no idea what Freeport McMoran does, but they'll sure as hell know what Sabina Silver is about.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:17
#258383
Agreed. Unfortunately, I have only limited exposure to the last. :( Still working on the first two.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 06:35
#258455
I'm pretty doom and gloom. Also have some exposure to other commodities, specifically lead, antimony, nitrocellulose, and brass. If this were to ever get Argentina-like, I'm staying put and guarding what I have against the zombies.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 15:07
#259457
Go long brains?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:07
#258531
I ordered 500 oz of AG. It took 5 weeks for delivery! Gold is usually there in house.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:14
#258697
mine took 8 weeks
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:44
#258742
Last time I bought Argentum was last fall. Argentum Eagles. $1.79 over spot. Now the same joint (APMEX) is charging $2.79 over spot last I checked. Long wait too.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:57
#258760
I buy Ag rounds from Jason Hommel. He mails UPS the day he gets your wire and he has size.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 02:41
#258919
Direct from First Majestic is very fast and cheap, straight from the website; the Aztecs are the most attractive rounds out there IMO.
Personally, I want to get rid of my silver, in exchange for more gold.
Gold will never be used as currency again. It is a wealth asset, and as explained by GATA, among many others, it is currently available miles below its real value.
Physical gold has NO COUNTERPARTY RISK.
Load up, while the gettings good.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:00
#258595
I like your strategy. The only way to truly break free of the bloodsuckers is to own tangible stuff.
The part I'm not so sure about is the plan to buy into mining stocks. In fairness I've done the same thing (also in mining stocks) to attempt to hedge long-term for currency hyper-inflation or collapse. But this strategy does not provide me a feeling of security. Claiming ownership to an electronic IOU which is a claim on a share of mining stock (or any stock) is a fallacy. Consider that every day there are a number of companies that have a greater number of their shares in short positions than actually have been issued. A few days ago, one of the ZH stories provided a good example, showing that Revlon company had a 115% short interest (15% more shares than have been issued, let alone are available to short...). Hell I don't even own the stock I 'own' (Cede & Co is the beneficial owner).
I'll go out on a very short limb & declare that most reasonable people can agree this is a rigged game... But what the hell else can a minnow do in a sea of sharks (and especially if you have a day job), besides trying to build a common sense hedge that will accomodate several possible scenarios...
I'm not sure who said it, but the statement "Fundamentals are meaningless" is a profound one today. if mining stocks look like the only safe bet, just watch the short interest rise & the price will subsequently be suppressed (or held at bay)... Investing in this stock market in any capacity puts one at the mercy of those who thrive on the theft of the value of your assets. But again, what the hell else can you do...
It is not my assertion that fundamentals are invalid. Once it all comes crashing down, true fundamental valuations will be revealed. But with our absolutely corrupt, complicit, firing on all cylinders, wealth redistribution to the wealthy machine "governing" the markets, it might take a few years yet... Will these companies survive through continuing attacks to see the inevitable system reset?
Hate the TBTF, but also beware of your brokerage!
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 02:37
#258914
Exactly, that is why you need a paper certificate for starters, and a royalty company off shore would be a good idea, and one that has non recourse loans, and a hedge against the dollar. Mining or royalty, there are a handful of good ones.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 02:49
#258923
Like I said above, physical gold has NO COUNTERPARTY RISK. TPTB are not going to be able to redistribute it, because you actually have it. IT IS REAL.
Anything paper will be found wanting as this imaginary world economy unravels.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:11
#258362
It was Barclays that called a short at $1049, either their book is glowing red or it was bait for the bears.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:08
#258368
Is it foolish to wait a couple of weeks to see if the price drops? Silver went up 5% last week, just as I was about to buy, and that discouraged me.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:41
#258420
It's hard to say, when investors flock to the US $ you see gold and silver dip for a short time giving a buying opportunity but when investors are flocking to the US $ it usually means that shit is hitting the fan elsewhere.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 09:11
#259053
Silver trades predictably. Just buy you physical whenever the price breaks through the 13 day MA. When the price drops below the 13 day buy (total value of physical AG/2) dollars worth of ZSL and ride it til silver breaks to the upside again. Take your profits from ZSL and buy more physical. This way your only risking half the fiat value of your physical at a time. If your ZSL hedge goes to zero, well, aren't you lucky?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:22
#258392
Or, could be they picked this guy to buoy the gold market as it's going to fall for a few weeks.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:42
#258423
Our efforts to expose manipulation in the gold market parallel those of Harry Markopolos to expose the Madoff Ponzi scheme to the Securities and Exchange Commission.
GATA's letter to the CFTC, no doubt as sincere as Markopolos', poses the same problem that resulted in Harry's years-long frustration: the regulators simply don't give a shit what they say or think. In order for these "whistle-blowers" to have any impact--whether on the regulatory environment or on markets--the alleged "proof" must be made public and be broadly deseminated. Failing such, this "news" is only so much blather.
Tyler, get the "proof."
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 18:52
#258439
I'm trying to figure out what you mean. If you mean a 'smoking gun' with someones signature on a letter explicitly laying out the process... then no - there is no proof. What they do have is hundreds of circumstantial pieces of evidence. While no one piece is indicative of a fraud going on, the volume of info is large. Consider a court proceeding. Do you realize how many convictions are based on circumstantial evidence for murder, etc...?
Circumstantial Evidence Definition: In law, evidence that is drawn not from direct observation of a fact at issue but from events or circumstances that surround it. If a witness arrives at a crime scene seconds after hearing a gunshot to find someone standing over a corpse and holding a smoking pistol, the evidence is circumstantial, since the person may merely be a bystander who picked up the weapon after the killer dropped it. The popular notion that one cannot be convicted on circumstantial evidence is false. Most criminal convictions are based, at least in part, on circumstantial evidence that sufficiently links criminal and crime.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:19
#258458
Or a smoking gun letter...
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:41
#258493
...just tell them that you found it next to the curb.
You know the curb, the one next to where we put the 9/11 hijacker's passport.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:16
#258699
Jamie is the silver short branch of the cartel, Goldman is the gold short branch. JPM for Treasury, GS for the Fed.
Keep the players st8......!! Don't contribute to the disinformation.....!!!
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 06:38
#258975
True. I stand corrected. But HSBC is supposedly the gold shorter, not GS.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:43
#259036
Dear Jamie,
Short the crap out of gold, and use the proceeds to buy SPYs. If "delivery" becomes an issue, HSBC's got your back, close them out with paper shares of GLD via EFPs, and if any tools actually demand physical we still have a few bars lying around somewhere. We'll harass and delay them just for fun.
P.S. How do you like our announcements of how "strong" our "tightening policy" is going to be? Do you think they're buying it?
Love,
Ben, Larry, and Lloyd
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:22
#258466
GATA has evidence that there are enormous physical short positions in the gold and silver markets that cannot be covered.
So...show me.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:41
#258492
you just hatch out of egg lol
read all the volumns of information by adrian douglas and ron kirby,, scripture and verse,
is your range mad magizene ,, and cnbc
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:05
#258526
"is your range mad magazine ,, and cnbc"
LOL
That describes about as much range as the post holes I dug over the weekend. Narrow but plenty deep.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:23
#258634
So...show me.
uh, how about doing some reading of info from the site: Gata.org
I have a feeling that unless you see something with a signature and whole plan laid out with someone rubbing their hands together maniacally as they tell the secret to their minion and it is recorded by the FBI, that you will never believe it.
However, go here: http://www.gata.org/node/7997
its a good starter with links from there to various central banks and documents. Its not all, but its a good starter and overview.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:55
#258673
Thanks for the link. GATA is like good ol' Harry Markopolos and has been at it longer.
What we have learned over the past 11 years is of great importance in regard to the CFTC’s forthcoming hearings regarding position limits in the precious metals futures markets.
So...has anything changed after all these years?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:22
#258708
Well the price of gold for one, and JP Morgan's determination to short a cubic mile of silver if needed.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:47
#258748
So...has anything changed after all these years?
yes... and no.
more people are aware of it the longer it goes on. also, there are people in congress that are obviously aware of their ideas (Grayson/Paul) and ask q's of the fed regarding the info. used to be just Paul and everyone would think he was nuts. not quite so much now...
sometimes the truth takes a long time to get its story out.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:01
#258764
They also have very clear motive.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:22
#258542
You do have a point in GATA being basically impotent, but I think this time might be different not necessarily because of GATA. Soros usually doesn't make bad investments and then compound them by buying more of the same investment. He has loaded up on gold (doubled his investment in GLD SPDR)and invested in gold companies. He just bought 75M of NOVA GOLD today as well as Paulson (100M).
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:24
#258471
good work GATA. uphill battle for sure. like all the other illegal criminal shit in the markets, the masses don't & probably won't get it until things get worse.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:35
#258486
the masses sit in the shit ,, as evidenced by those who want some one to prove it is shit ..
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:24
#258714
Fuck em'. Ant and the grasshopper my friend. Ant and the grasshopper.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:55
#258757
true.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:24
#258472
GATA a lone voice in the wilderness, will this be the undoing of the gold cartel?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:03
#258766
Vox Clamantis in Deserto
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:32
#258482
show me the workings of the fed ..
show me the inner workings if the giant banks
show me the front running
show me the criminal activityz in wars
show me that we have a managed economy
show me that their was inside activity on AIG
show me ,, a pig walks like a pig, grovel likes a pig, yet wears lipstick to prove it is a duck
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:38
#258562
ducks wear lipstick?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:26
#258717
Ohh dear sweet Jesus. You didn't think that their beaks were really yellow, did you?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:33
#258484
I'm "All-In", already, all Physical Gold. I have been waiting for the Comex and GLD to be exposed as fractional, but I'm afraid that for the 'good of the dollar' it might be impractical. Yeah, it would be nice to see gold triple in price, but then the dollar would be worth even less than zero.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:28
#258722
THAT's a ballsy move. I prefer to harvest Federal Reserve Notes and trade them to people that will pay me gold for them.
I always wondered how it was possible for the natives to have sold Manhattan for a handful of trinkets. Now I realize it was true.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:38
#258733
Ya hard to make fun of indians when white people are making a 20 billion times gianter mistake. LOL
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:33
#258485
These trading patterns should be fairly easy to debunk. Especially #1: COMEX Gold never rises more than 2% in one trading session, but experiences unlimited downside. I mean its up like 25% YTD...
Anyone with access to market data care to refute this with some hard statistics?
Even if this document represents a Protocol of the Elders of Zion level of gold bug conspiracy papers, there is something about the statement: physical shorts are systematically incapable of covering their massive positions, that just feels right intuitively. Global vampire squid conspiracies or not, emerging market forces suggest the trappings of a commodities long boom. People get ready, start burying ingots in the backyard!
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:39
#258564
I've made more than one deposit in the People's Bank of Gaia.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:39
#258726
Ahh. Good man. Best savings plan there is. Put it back to whence it came!
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 06:40
#258965
GATA's claim was:
I downloaded the LBMA gold fixings (so this is not COMEX data but probably not far off) from 2-Jan-1991 to 8-Mar-2010 (4,849 days). The number of days where the AM (PM) fixing has increased more than 2% over the previous day's AM (PM) fixing is 125 (125). For changes less than -2% it is 148 (120).
So the number of big up days and big down days appears to be about the same.
In particular, some of the biggest moves up (from previous PM fix to PM fix) were as follows (showing many biggest moves upwards have in fact occurred in the last few years):
23-Oct-08 3.3%
31-Oct-08 3.3%
09-Sep-08 3.3%
08-Dec-04 3.4%
13-Mar-03 3.4%
12-Nov-07 3.4%
06-Oct-03 3.4%
20-Mar-08 3.5%
25-May-01 3.5%
11-Sep-06 3.7%
22-Oct-08 3.7%
23-Jul-08 3.7%
05-Aug-93 3.8%
13-Jun-06 3.8%
06-Apr-09 3.9%
15-Aug-08 3.9%
18-Apr-08 4.0%
07-Dec-09 4.1%
12-Aug-08 4.2%
01-Jun-06 4.4%
26-Feb-09 4.4%
24-Jul-06 4.6%
01-Dec-08 4.6%
11-Sep-08 4.6%
19-Mar-08 4.9%
01-Apr-08 5.0%
15-May-06 5.3%
16-Oct-08 5.4%
08-Feb-00 5.4%
17-Jan-91 6.1%
19-May-06 6.2%
13-Oct-08 8.0%
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 06:41
#258976
This is London price fixing, not COMEX spot. I've seen big differences between them before and shook my head. Anyone care to comment?
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 07:58
#259004
Yes, I only have the LBMA fixing data and not the COMEX data. But... what I was trying to highlight was that the number and magnitudes of +/- 2% moves in the fixings were about the same. I would be very surprised if the results were much different using COMEX data. Maybe someone with a Bloomberg terminal could easily spit out the data/results.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 08:02
#259009
Thanks for providing some actual data Riley. You can't dispute the numbers. Even if the distribution skews to negative returns, GATA seems damned by their claims of 'near-complete failure' in a 2% rise!
Every fundamental indication I am partial to always suggests the same narrative: industrially useless gold is overvalued, while 'real' commodities such as rice and lithium are just revving up.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 11:16
#259152
How is % change from PM fix to PM fix (a 24hr period) at all relevant to % change from COMEX open to COMEX close (a ~5hr subperiod)? This is like leaving a solar panel out for 24 hours and then arguing that the sun must shine at night because electricity has been produced.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 12:45
#259261
Your statement is absurd. GATA made a claim, did not back it up with any data or empirical results, and I am simply trying to add a bit of information and backgound to their claim. If you want to discuss the data then I am open to doing so. If you want to make non-sense analogies, avoid the data, and keep your head in the sand then I will abandon this discussion. Now, did you have any sort of factual contribution to add to this discussion?
I will, however, comment on the time span issue you raise. I repeat the GATA claim again here:
I suppose the statement "per day on the Comex" is open to some interpretation. Are we discussing the open to close price? Or are we discussing a daily price? Was the open to close assumption particularly clear to you?
For interests sake, I will look at the change in gold price from the AM fix to the PM fix -- this would approximately have a similar period length but, of course, LBMA fixings are at 10.30am and 3pm UK Time or 5.30am to 10am ET, while COMEX trades from 8.20 to 13.30 ET).
From the 1991-date LBMA fixing data I observe that the number of 2+% increases from the AM to the PM fixings over the sample is 22 and 2+% decreases is 25. To get a better feel for the distribution, the number of 1+% increases is 153 while 1+% decreases is 183. For 3+% increases/decreases it is 9 and 7.
I do agree that this is LBMA fixings and not COMEX data and the time periods are different. Unfortunately, this is the only data I have available. I am not saying I disagree with GATA's ultimate premise, but if they are going to make claims then it is only fair that they back it up with facts. However, the data I have does not suggest to me much support for GATA's claim.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 13:56
#259333
Your statement is absurd.
How is my statement absurd in any way?
GATA made a claim, did not back it up with any data or empirical results, and I am simply trying to add a bit of information and backgound to their claim.
That's fine, and I'm simply pointing out that the information and background you're adding is irrelevant to whether GATA's claim is true or not. Don't take it personally.
If you want to discuss the data then I am open to doing so. If you want to make non-sense analogies, avoid the data, and keep your head in the sand then I will abandon this discussion.
How is pointing out your data's lack of relevance "avoid[ing] the data"?
Now, did you have any sort of factual contribution to add to this discussion?
Charles Darwin: "To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact."
I suppose the statement "per day on the Comex" is open to some interpretation. Are we discussing the open to close price? Or are we discussing a daily price? Was the open to close assumption particularly clear to you?
I disagree that the statement is open to any "interpretation" whatsoever. They're writing specifically about manipulation on the COMEX; how could anyone possibly interpret this to also include trading OFF the COMEX?
For interests sake, I will look at the change in gold price from the AM fix to the PM fix -- this would approximately have a similar period length but, of course, LBMA fixings are at 10.30am and 3pm UK Time or 5.30am to 10am ET, while COMEX trades from 8.20 to 13.30 ET).
Great, so instead of conflating a 24hr period with one of its subperiods, now you're conflating two different subperiods. Now the "non-sense" analogy is that you're leaving the solar panel out from 6pm to midnight, and saying it proves the sun was shining at some point between 10pm and 4am.
I do agree that this is LBMA fixings and not COMEX data and the time periods are different. Unfortunately, this is the only data I have available. I am not saying I disagree with GATA's ultimate premise, but if they are going to make claims then it is only fair that they back it up with facts.
I completely agree with you that it's naive to take any of GATA's claims at face value without analyzing the data.
However, the data I have does not suggest to me much support for GATA's claim.
My point is that the data you have (or at least the data you've posted here) don't suggest ANYTHING about GATA's claim, support or otherwise.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 16:06
#259546
> I disagree that the statement is open to any "interpretation" whatsoever.
The "interpretation" I was referring to is whether the "2 percent per day" defined a "day" as a 24-hour period or the open-close period. Again, GATA's claim is so vague I do not think the definition is clear. Why do you think it is so obviously a New York market open-close period?
I have been clear that I don't have COMEX data but have assumed LBMA fixings as a proxy -- this may or may not be an appropriate assumption. I have pointed out that there is obviously no "2 Percent Rule" when looking at the LBMA fixings. This is under my original asumption that a "day" is 24-hours and under you assumption a "day" is the AM to PM fix. I would suspect that given the results using LBMA fixings we would unlikely find the "2 Percent Rule" to hold with the COMEX data. But, anyone with a Bloomberg terminal could easily upload the data for us to see.
>data's lack of relevance
>To kill an error is as good a service as...
So, given GATA's claim, I have the choice of trying to take a peak into the facts using either the LBMA gold fixing data I have available or do nothing... Are you suggesting my data is so irrelevant that I should have done nothing?
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 19:25
#259886
> Why do you think it is so obviously a New York market open-close period?
Because it would be implausibly stupid of GATA to make this claim about any full 24hr period. There were AT LEAST 2 days in November alone where COMEX last to close was over 2%. 11/3 and 11/25 for sure, probably others.
> So, given GATA's claim, I have the choice of trying to take a peak into the facts using either the LBMA gold fixing data I have available or do nothing... Are you suggesting my data is so irrelevant that I should have done nothing?
Your data is so irrelevant to the claim you cite as to be borderline disingenuous, that's the only reason I pointed it out. I'm sure your data will prove quite useful in other contexts.
on Wed, 03/10/2010 - 09:28
#260439
Ok... so basically you take issue with me using LBMA fixing data as a proxy from the Comex price.
I hacked together some code so that I could download historical data from by broker. I downloaded the daily open/high/low/close/volume for the GC contract. I requested the three months data prior to the contract's first notice date. A few points to note: (1) There is some overlap of data. For instance, for the MAR2010 contract I requested data for the months of December, January and February. For the FEB2010 contract the months November, December and January. Hence, one-two months of overlapping data in each series. (2) The reason for the overlap is that some contracts are more liquid than others and I have not taken the time to weed out the main contract. I believe it is the quarterly contracts starting from April that are usually the main contracts. I'll look into this issue more on next pass but this is to serve only as a basic first approximation and I'll mark the overlapping dates. (3) To deal with the issue of using liquid data only I only use data for dates where the volume was at least 1,000.
Over the last year I counted 16 dates (13 when excluding the overlapping contracts) where the change from the open to close was >2% and 10 days where it was less than -2%.
The +2% dates are:
In the GC FEB09 contract
20090129 3.3%
20090123 2.2%
20090106 2.1%
20081226 2.5%
20081216 2.6%
20081121 3.6%
20081113 2.2%
In the GC APR09 contract
20090317 4.8%
20090305 2.3%
20090129 3.2% (overlap)
20090123 2.2% (overlap)
In the GC JUN09 contract
20090318 4.8%
20090305 2.3%
In the GC DEC09 contract
20091103 2.6%
In the GC FEB2010 contract
20091127 2.0%
20091103 2.6% (overlap)
In the LBMA data, over roughly the same time period there were 9 increases of more than 2% and 18 decreases of less than -2%. The 9 increases occurred on
20081106 2.1%
20081114 2.4%
20081119 3.2%
20081121 2.1%
20081125 2.2%
20081210 2.1%
20090120 2.2%
20090225 2.3%
20090319 2.0%
All-in-all I would say that this quick-n-dirty analysis says to me (1) the LBMA data was not too bad of a proxy for the Comex data, (2) in the Comex data that I do have available the skew is actually to the positive more than the negative, and (3) I don't find evidence of a "2 Percent Rule".
on Wed, 03/10/2010 - 10:43
#260528
> Because it would be implausibly stupid of GATA to make this claim about any full 24hr period.
and
http://numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=9741
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 14:21
#259380
Also, please understand that I don't disagree with your main point: I'd love to see GATA present some actual data to support their claims, instead of just blowing out more of the same old stale smoke every few months.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 19:46
#258496
For the "show me guys and gals" GATA offers a free two week membership. Costs you nuttin.
So look it up or remain in the cold dark world of the vampire squid.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:05
#258522
Good for GATA to try and keep the boyz honest but....now that paper maybe substitued for paper (GLD vs Comex futures) the perps will be exempted from any position limits in futures. Furthermore, the operators have the blessings of the FED, even old man Volcker has been quoted saying the only thing they missed in the 76-80 bull was not "managing the gold price..."
Can you imagine what the banks OTC short position is? should be a mulitple of what the exchange traded short is...wow
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:41
#258659
Volcker has been quoted saying the only thing they missed in the 76-80 bull was not "managing the gold price..."
I believe the item you are looking for from Volcker is the "We probably let Gold get too high." quote.
It is a good one.
call it exhibit A. I mean what, exactly, does he mean when he says we LET gold get too high. Before you make the argument that he mispoke or meant to use other words think about what you are saying. These people are chosen for the position for the fact that they don't misspeak. Ever. And what else would/could he have been implying with the word LET. Not - it got too high. WE LET. We. And if he meant it in the meaning that he can influence it as a negative correlation with the dollar when they raise/lower rates why say it got too high? That implies there is a level that they wanted to keep it to by some management of the price. Otherwise you'd say we let the dollar get too low, not gold was too high.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:25
#258716
You hit the nail on the head. This quote by Volcker passes unnoticed as if it's normal or uninteresting. That's the difference between a "free" market and a "controlled" market. It's no wonder that most people don't see how fucked up the picture is when it's presented by the mainstream media machine.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:50
#258751
most people don't see how fucked up the picture is when it's presented by the mainstream media machine.
and how
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 03:08
#258929
+1
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:05
#258523
Uh Oh:
08 March 2010Are Traders Demanding US Credit Default Swaps Payable in Gold?
http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 00:38
#258846
Oh, that is pretty damn big. Thanks!
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 06:44
#258978
It's a great big boot in the mouth of all the "gold has no intrinsic value" yappers.
If gold has no value, then why do EU CDS' want to be redeemed in GOLD, and not EUROS, or USD or CAD for that matter?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:05
#258524
"No other market trades so repetitively." That just about says it all.
Check the charts for the past several years. Every single massive takedown occurs during the NY market hours. It's really getting comical.
At 9:45AM this morning gold was hammered down $10.00 at the COMEX, then another $8.00 later on just for good measure right before noon. The reason? According to the consensus of our financial "free press", it was because worries over the Greek fiscal crisis were easing.
Yep. Seems there was a melding of mass consciousness at the COMEX at 9:45AM on the dot when gold traders decided all at once that the Greek debt crisis was not as serious as it was thought to be. So what to do? Everyone sell gold!
Wait a minute. Why are we selling gold?
"If the Greek situation calms down, people may not be as interested in owning hard assets," said Matt Zeman, a metals trader at LaSalle Futures Group in Chicago. "Gold is losing its momentum." No I'm not making that up. He really said that. Here's the link: http://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/gold-futures-drop-as-greek-deb...
A broken record. Blatant manipulation of the gold market every day between 8:20AM and 1:30PM EST, and lame-o reasons for it happening from the same people who are supposed to be doing the work that GATA has been forced to do for them.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:45
#258575
Hear , hear.........My guess is that the CRIMEX hammers gold down about 75-80% of the time.It is a very obvious pattern. I just wish I could get myself to trade it ?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:55
#258587
You'll get burned by the steam they have to let out of the boiling pot every so often. Go long and wait for these rats to back themselves into a corner.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:12
#258535
I wonder how much money it would take? What if every reader on Zero Hedge buys $100,000 in gold. Do you think that $1 billion would be enough to expose the fraud? I'm in!
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:38
#258560
big problem here
as i would bet some here ,, no names but they PO PO gold ,, are setting on shit ,, will not recognize the shit ... and could not spring for a oz of gold ,, so they have nothing to protect ..
these are the lemmings , the pied pipers of the status Que,, waiting for the bottle with a government tit attached
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:45
#258572
here is my humble opinion, what do you guys think?
For me the issue and question should be on the definition of hedging.
If the banks are short, how is the cftc confirming they are hedged?
The root here is the banks don't have the legal metal but might claim OTC or other derivatives are their hedge.
If I am not mistaken it is against the rules to use OTC positions as hedge for futures, right?
Why isn't anyone taking this angle?
I'm sick of simply hearing about how big the shorts are.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:53
#258675
I'm sick of simply hearing about how big the shorts are.
Yeah, but, its freaking huge!
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:21
#258709
it's simple, the massive commercial shorts, are not hedged. the losses, are the price paid, in paper, to continue the suppression.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:54
#258756
some might even call it the cost of doing business.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 09:38
#259070
The shorts are really big you know.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 20:45
#258574
I wonder if John Paulson had paid Sir Alan a larger “consulting” fee he would have found out the truth and taken delivery like Greenlight instead of GLD which will never deliver. It will be seized by the USG.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:12
#258609
Gensler is a Goldmanite. Can we expect him to really go after the cartel?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:21
#258625
hahah! that means if and when hyperinflation hits the party some banks are gonna get REEEEEAAAAMMMMEDD!!!
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:23
#258633
I just downloaded GLD's price history from Yahoo Finance to verify what someone posted at LeMetropoleCafe about a month ago.
GLD first traded on Nov 18, 2004, when it opened at $44.43. Today it closed at $109.88, up $65.45 since its inception. During trading on the NYSE, the total change on all trading days (close minus open) was DOWN $1.08. In other words, all of the gains came overnight (open minus yesterday's close). This is so skewed that any imbecile can see what's going on. Idiots, on the other hand...
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:10
#258690
SLV is up $3.99 since inception ($12.90 to $16.89), with net losses of $7.88 during NYSE trading but net overnight gains of $11.87.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:23
#258635
While I do watch real-time charts every day and can see the obvious manipulation --- there is the other side of this that is still not explained.
Price Fixing does cause shortages -- However -- There is no shortage that i can see in the physical market -- at least not on coins. Anyone can go to tulving or apmex or gainsville and buy all the gold they want right now with low premiums.
I know coins are not big enough gold sources for central banks or countries to buy -- but nevertheless, one would think that there is no gold to be found based on some of these stories.. I don't know what the real answer is -- I can see with my eyes that the Gold price is manipulated down -- but I can also buy all I want -- something does not add up..
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:54
#258677
The Chinese gvmt told their people to start buying gold. Our gvmt doesn't care that much what we do. Now is the time to buy gold if you haven't already.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:35
#258730
So your point is the Chinese govt is more caring than the US govt ???
Gimme a break. Sorry to let the secret out, but govt doesn't gives a shit about its constituency regardless of nationality... That goes doubly so for the ChiCom govt.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 00:24
#258825
The fact remains, the Chinese have just recently advised their people to buy gold. Why? Tell me the fuck why? I liken it to building community bomb shelters in the '50's. They mean to survive something, and aren't squeamish about advising their people to take shelter in gold. Give me a better reason.
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPXncTuwFIE
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 03:09
#258930
Chinese government would probably have a relatively trivial job of confiscating much of the peoples' gold, if they ever wanted to. How much easier to increase reserves than to utilize the purchasing power of a whole nation?
But yes, I'd guess the PRC government is mostly about perpetuating its power, same as the US. And the oligarchy is about playing both ends against the middle.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:28
#258724
there's lots of gold, for the right price.silver? silver purchases, are limited, at several mints. also long wait times, for delivery. silver is the canary in the coal mine. coin shops, are charging $5 over spot per oz. there is not enough silver, for everyone in the world, to have 1 oz. and we use it up, faster than we mine it, depleting reserves
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:38
#258735
I believe the answer is that few large investors take physical delivery. It's mostly us little guys taking delivery of coins. Institutional investors usually hold bullion in pooled accounts. Even allocated bullion is suspect: a few years ago, Morgan Stanley was fined for running allocated accounts that weren't backed by physical, and they were charging storage fees to boot! There are anecdotal accounts of $200+ premiums being offered to cash settle COMEX contracts instead of taking delivery, and Adrian Douglas of GATA estimates that the LBMA is running a fractional reserve operation that is effectively short 50K tonnes of gold.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:37
#258657
How to make a slave: (only 3 simple ingerdients are required)
1. Contol food supply - how many Americans get their food from anywhere other than the supermarket?
2. Control information - how many Americans get 100% of there information from main stream media?
3. Maintain a threat of violence - Obey or you'll be fined or put in jail.
As long as Americans are fed and their TV is on, the US government can do anything they want to their slaves.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 21:43
#258662
when a few more hi-rollers >>Demand Delivery things will happen very fast... Question >> what is better than 100 Silver Maple Leafs ?
Answer >> 110 Silver Maple Leafs...
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:57
#258823
Ah, a trick question. 100 engelhard (or whoever) silver rounds are better because the premium is less and the silver content the same. Nice looking coins too.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 16:33
#259617
That may be so Frank but silver will be used for day to day trade and they need to be very recognizable to the normal Joe - Liberties or maple leafs will be the most easily tradable and will give Joe the confidence that it is a good currency.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 18:43
#259844
I highly doubt anyone would refuse a .999 1oz silver coin just because it's not a maple leaf or liberty. If we ever get down to using pms as currencies the important thing will be purity and weight. I'm not talking some lump of silver with a stamp on it I mean actual coins which are clearly marked and well made. Then again I buy acetaminophen rather than tylenol and some people insist on paying 3x more for the tylenol brand so maybe you are right.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 19:59
#259946
Point taken Frank , it was a minor quibble.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:00
#258681
The paper ponzi schemes are about to go bust. If you don't hold it, you don't own it.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:01
#258683
OK - Assume everyone wakes up and the price of gold goes to $10,000 an ounce because there is a real shortage. What effect would such an event have on
A) Other commodities where there is not an actual shortage;
B) Currencies of the world, which are no longer based on gold reserves.
C) The ldaily life of the average citzen of the world or the USA?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:37
#258732
everything would reprice, to the one true monetary unit. gold + 1000% = currencies - 90% the shortage is only the wake up call, the value is relative
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:53
#258753
Say this is true - gold to $10k+ an ounce.
How long until:
1. Dark Ages II or
2. Revolution or
3. WWIII?
What other outcome is there? I feel they hiding the truth to help themselves before one of those 3 outcomes hit the fan.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 22:58
#258761
why does it always have to be WWIII? cant it be a multitude of small regional skirmishes instead one worldwide big us vs them?
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:33
#258800
This "physical delivery" story is about the only thing more non-sensical than investing in gold. (its a weak LT investment, always!)
There are 90% of Gold investor who are also just PAPER. They DONT WANT physical delivery. Do you think some major pension fund or hedge fund WANTS DELIVERY?
Then you are stupid. Delivery has major problems (costs, storage, theft, control, etc). And dont say something stupid... like "have it delivered to a bank". If the bank has "custody" then it is no different than paper. They will "lend" it to shorts for a fee.
So now that you understand basics of markets (paper longs and short balance, few want "physical delivery")... please return to the kids table.
-BBH
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 00:15
#258831
Things are always a blast at the kids table! The bestest part is that we don't even pays taxes on our profits cause we are so stupid and naive that we forget to leave a paper trail. All the other kids like that we actually know what we have too, and it can't be taken away without breaking into our piggy banks! Now get us some beer, biatch.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 01:14
#258859
Yeah if I wanted to take delivery of $1M of gold, I would need ~900 toz's. Yeah that would cost WAAAAY to much to store. A small high-end safe you can buy for ~$400 would have ALOT of room left over.
Do you even think before you post?
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 01:30
#258869
About that safe... DON"T forget the anchor bolts!!! Seriously, I know a guy who had a safe whose house got broken into and they just took the whole damn thing and opened it later. If it isn't a total nightmare to remove it is not safe at all. Hidden is good too.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 10:11
#259096
before you go putting a million bucks of gold in a $400 safe,
watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 03:36
#258935
Yeah, CB's don't take delivery do they..... numb nuts.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 18:29
#259825
Like I said - KIDS TABLE.
Do you guys understand there are about $100T in globally managed assets?
And you're going to "take delivery" on $1M and put it in a $400 safe?
At least one guy dreamt of "winning the lottery" and taking a 1/1000th of 1/1000th position of global assets in gold.
Another kids table member said, "CBs take delivery". Ah, the kids. They dont study. Most CBs hold their assets in the Fed's vault. Nice try though.
Back in 1980 1oz of gold bought 10 shares of S&P500. Today it buys 1 share. OH, and the SPX has paid 2-4% divs EACH and EVERY year since then. 30-yrs of divs add up to ALOT.
Gold has about 5% long-term annual returns. Good investors earn 15-25% long-term annual returns. Good investments earn EVEN MORE. The future looks very similar to this.
on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 23:53
#258820
Damn manipulating bastards, PLEASE PLEASE let me win the powerball just so I can take delivery on 75-100 million dollars in physical from Crimex.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 00:17
#258835
Where and what type of gold should one buy? I was looking at 5 gram and 10 gram bars from the Perth Mint.
I know it's not much, however a little here and there will add up.
on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 01:58
#258887
I was looking at 5 gram and 10 gram bars from the Perth Mint.
nothing wrong with that at all.