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The Genesis Of The Gold-Tungsten: The Rest Of The Story
The Genesis of the Gold-Tungsten: The Rest of the Story; Submitted by Ron Kirby, who first disclosed the LBMA/Physical Bullion disparity story in 2008 and 2009.
h/t RossInvestor
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Absolutely awesome report. Ties up a lot of loose ends for me. Great research. This manipulation is obvious and is being buried by the MMM. This is real journalism, and no longer can be called a conspiracy theory. Its a conspiracy by the highest echelons of the banking cartel.
Has Lyndon Larouche taken over this site?
no, its always been like this. jump in the waters lovely.
I must say this is getting tedious.I am beginning to believe that even with signed confessions and videotape of the crimes, these supervillains would escape punishment.
We should as Americans be ashamed of this ongoing criminal rape of the planet, and say ENOUGH!
Mass strikes and descending on DC en masse seem a reasonable minimum response.
This story is just appalling.
i'm just me but here goes, lol
okay, we will assume all you say is true, what is the purpose, end game
based on the present, you could say, this whole decade was manufactured to have a reason to get more and more and more dollars into the system, such that in the end the dollar is the only world currency
and thus, he who controls the currency controls the world
we're on our way to becoming no. 1, i can live with that
sorry pal the new world currency will not be the dollar. they will tell you what it is when they are ready.
unless of course the human race collectively makes other arrangements and keeps some integrity in this messy but necessary transition.
Ultimately, if "they" get their way, the new currency is probably just electrons in a database. Nothing physical except a swipe card or chip. Much easier to centrally control. Don't like somebody's dissent? Turn off their card or chip. Game over for them other than barter or kindness of strangers.
A lot of people consider the above to be tin-foil hat speculation. To those folks, I suggest they examine their daily/weekly lives to see just how often they use physical fiat currency as their medium of exchange versus swiping their debit or credit cards. The first paragraph doesn't seem so far-fetched anymore, does it?
i agree . that is why it is important to institute another system before they get their way. the focus on gold/silver is healthy because it is an honest alternative, some say the only alternative.
which is why this story is so important, the culmination of their plans for a world digital fiat currency can be thwarted by truth of the manipulation being revealed.
they will tell you, what the new currency is, and how low you will have to grovel, to get a little.
" we're on our way to becoming no. 1, i can live with that "
You think so, do you? I am certainly not included in that imperial WE. I suspect that you probably are not either. Along with most of the readership of this web site, and most of the people in countries around the world.
The USA is moving into some very troubling times and I (guess) think MOST of the the people in the country will not benefit from the changes.
Whether Gold (physical) is an effective preservation of wealth is a 64 Gazillion question (I had to escalate the scale of the proverbial quote). You Don't Know and neither do I. With the manipulation we can obviously see, and the manipulation that is claimed, NOBODY can claim certain knowledge.
Where this is going to go is anyone's guess. Stay sharp and open minded. IF we are lucky, and catch the trend at the onset, we might make out.
Can't believe Martin Armstrong is still in jail a decade later for a contempt of court charge. Not sure of all the particulars of his case...does anyone have a link to a good article that explains it in full?
He served 7 yrs. on the contempt charge, then plead guilty (who wouldn't after that) and reiceved 5 more yrs.
Yes, go directly to the source:
http://www.scribd.com/kzuur58
You will get the entire history of Martin Armstrong here.
The corrected history here.
http://nihoncassandra.blogspot.com/2006/08/enigma-of-martin-armstrong.html
NADA-- Nuthatches Always Demanding Attention
How do we know? A little birdie told us so!
Alternate version.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/191888-fake-tungsten-gold-story-pushing-gold-investors-to-buy-gold-etfs
Interesting read but I would still like to see a 400 oz salted bar for proof. Granted I really don't want to see one if it does exist as it would cause a run on gold that would shoot the market to the moon.
The real scare factor is if both the "physical" leverage of paper to real gold is 100 to 1 and much or some of the physical is tungsten. If both are true and the revelation of both were to happen in a short period of time then the price of physical gold in testable or small quantities would go nuts. Hell would be an interesting global change as well. After all certain parts of Asia have more of a gold culture so a radical price revision would bring wealth to them while much of the Western population does not hold gold, and is in debt. Possible change of world focus West to East.
I find myself hoping that the tungsten story and the 100 to 1 are both false. Simply because the ramifications of a gold moonshot are rather disruptive for society, even though I am a gold bug. Still I would buy if both are false simply as a dollar collapse hedge so I will keep buying and hoping they can kick the can down the road while I load up.
don't you remember watching this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKczs-7BFRI
I do, and it scared the pants off me! I think there is a good chance their is counterfeiting, but I still have to reserve judgement till I see a big bar. Because that big bar says that the USA gov was involved in MASSIVE fraud. That is the kind of fraud that could piss people off to get guns or seek violent solutions. After all imagine the worlds response to both the paper fraud and then to find out huge amounts of actual physical is fake. I cannot even guess how high physical gold could go as money flees into safe good gold.
For me it doesn't make an immediate difference for how I act. My savings is going into PMs, particularly gold. I do this because even if there was no fraud in LBMA/COMEX or fake bars I think it will go up on sovereign debt crisis and will be safer then sitting in Bernanke Fun Bux. I'm all in on PM's except for some cash I keep at home in case the banks close on me.
Also sorry I fat fingered trying to click on link and accidentally junked you. My bad I do not consider you post junk at all, you bring up a good point.
Perhaps the COMEX can oblige you? :-)
Well I would love for them to let me run around and play with 400 oz bars :)
Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the COMEX to force cash or GLD settlements rather then risk giving salted bars to those they expect might test them? The main thing keeping me from totally jumping on the tungsten story with both feet is because it seems like a lot of it can be accomplished with just paper gold. Doing both spikes it to legendary levels of fraud. Not only are they going to sell 100 to 1 paper to real gold, but the "real" gold is also salted tungsten bars. Doing so would be epic fraud. Sure I know fraud is a business model now, but this is insanely extreme. And it may be true. Like I said I'm all in already, but I'm horrified by the implications. The implications in price of gold, the stability of the dollar, and the perception of the US are all extreme. After all if the USA is found to be dumping fake gold out there I can't imagine that would improve our global image.
what would be the reaction, of a soverign, who discovered, that a large portion of their reserves, were counterfeit? paralysis? would they be better off, not revealing the fact? regulatory, capture, now soverign capture. my theory, is that these tungsten bars, were dumped onto specific players.like selling cheap heroin, to russia, and iran. the economic gain, is only part of the picture.
But who to dump them on? China? Possible but talk about eternal hatred, and they have excess manpower manufacturing capability and nukes. Russia? Maybe not the military machine they once were but still nothing to sneeze at. Arab Oil states? This seems most likely since we have are military partying in the region and a brainwashed public that would accept invading any Arab country by simply invoking the memory of 9/11. Might also explain the rumor that the Saudi's were trying to get closer politically with Russia recently.
Germany?
Yes, I too want to see a bad 400 oz. bar surface.
Re "junking", I think I read that if you did junk him, you can go back and junk again, that removes your junk. I'll try that on my first post.
Well a 400 oz bar would have to be done by the big boys and they are assayed so it implies a gov or a powerful organization behind it. A 500gm bar is big to some people but 400 oz, well that's outside of most all but the biggest of investors or into the sovereign/banking range. One 400 oz fake bar almost forces institutions and banks to assay their gold and that could create a firestorm.
Thank you about the junk, went back and fixed it. I had never junked anyone before. There are people here that I think write trash, but they have a right to write it.
There! Up top. I just "junked" myself.
Now I'll go unjunk it.
OK, I am now unjunked.
OK Shameful, now I'll junk you! :)
Take that!
Now I will unjunk you.
Now you are unjunked.
Works like magic. ZH is magic.
Sorry, when CPM Group's Jeff Christian says it (100:1) is so in a CFTC public hearing, you aren't going to get any better confirmation than that. Believe it, and act accordingly. The paperbug naysayers on this thread are breathtakingly stupid in light of last week's revelations. They will never learn - too bad, so sad...
I am acting accordingly, as I was 100% all in on PMs before this announcement. I was all in just on the certain knowledge of dollar death. I'm afraid of these stories because it adds another couple running chainsaw to be juggled by Zimbabwe Ben and company. I'm still going to throw all my savings into gold (have enough silver to weigh me down nicely).
The tungsten story is extra scary with the leverage. Because it means that if the big boys push and get lucky and get delivery it might not be good, it's an insane amount of fraud if true. It's quite possible both are true, certainly the paper market time bomb, but as I said I can't go any more all in then I already have.
The only thing about Christian's statement of 100:1 is that I don't believe he knows or cares, their objective is keep precious metals priced where they want it...not about what they have to do to do so.
Good reporting. Take out the fake bullion, that has fixed the Gold price and with the huge supply shortage along with fiat debasement , political chaos ... Got Gold...Got popcorn?
interesting background. that said, its all just interesting at this point. what's actionable is the situation with the failure to come up with the million ounces and fill the order on 3/26.
Now that....has the potential to blow the lidoff everything.
Forget about tungsten or gold, this story is 100% tin. The real knee-slapper is the "White House" letter supposedly signed by GWB. Jesus, even Dan Rather came up with a better fake than that one.
There is a simple way to ID all these supposedly fake gold bars. A $10, spring-loaded center punch will do the trick. It will easily find the fake bars and do no damage to the real ones.
That's a child's play for a high level US Government official. They have signed off on much worse things. At its heart the US Govt. is nothing but a giant CRIMINAL enterprise.
No President would sign a document with language like that. It would never be placed in front of him. Yes we have intelligence services that can get almost any "job" done, and done well, but the chain of command doesn't work like that. The letter is a laughable fake, and IMO it casts doubt on everything else.
No President would sign a document with language like that.
He was vice president, but I have the same doubts about the document. This doesn't mean most of the story isn't true, and some of it is undeniably true. I am familiar with a lot of the info and have researched it. IMO much of it can be proven, so to dismiss all of it because of that one document would be hasty. How many articles have you read where you agree with everything?
one of the presidential patsies, would pass off a document like that. insuring it could be labeled a fake, if ever exposed. they probably thought they could recover it , before release. thats probably why they tortured him, before killing him. george h w bush was in dallas, when jfk was murdered
Yeah, I want one of those 007 license-to-kill letters.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/8127
by..Catherine Austin Fitts
this is a must read.....the rabit hole is deep
http://dunwalke.com/
Fitts is obviously intelligent. Such associations as hers and Fitts having sense of morality, helps explain the return to nature . And that Rabit mess is only One rabbit hole in the Global Family of holes.
Tyler,
I think that if anything, this should have been presented as a guest post. Presenting it yourself puts your de-facto "stamp of aproval" on everything in the article, and is risky because not everything here is:
a) current
b) readily confirmable and
c) from entirely credible sources
Perhaps you should just link to GATA's website and let them post this kind of stuff for those who care to dig deeper? Just a thought.
Keep up the awesome work... and best regards!
I think it clearly says "Submitted by Rob Kirby" at the top...
My bad. Apologies.
GG the zit faced kids and their awesome knowledge about gold,
the mistake is to grovel down to their level ,
time will be the answer. these anti gold guys probably in the aggregate could not together protect their stash of credit card debt, and the hope of a unemployment check .
remember a oz of gold is plus of minus 1120.
so a person has to have that much free and clear to walk into a coin shop and plunk down the green,
Let the debasement of currency's continue.World Wide , golds return the last ten years has outpaced any other investment.
silver also,
a group trained at the tit of Keynesian economics. with no background to have the discrimination or the assets to protect.
They have no more undertanding of the future value and the why of gold than a breast feeding toddler setting on the knee of their pretended insight.
Dumpster,
I'm not some zit-faced kid, rather a middle aged man who has studied economics and geopolitics for some time. I've also spent plenty of time around conspiracy theorists, so I understand how they think.
While many of the things in this document no doubt happened, there is no way to prove that all of it did, nor is there a way to prove the motives of various actors involved at any given time, or in some cases who they even were. I was originally being polite saying that the overall tone of the document was conspiratorial, but let me be more direct - you have to drink some serious kool aid to connect the dots the ways the authors have in some parts of this document.
My point was (and remains) that "hard news," like getting someone to admit on tape that there is a 100:1 ratio of paper to gold, is actual, actionable information and doesn't compromise the journalistic integrity of ZH. When someone can come forth with similar hard evidence that 10,000 tons of gold in the the world's gold vaults actually have tungsten cores (not just a brick here or there, like the YouTube videos), I'll start to pay attention.
Until then, as other posters have noted, I should be aware to check the physical purity of the gold I buy, and if I'm fortunate enough to be buying bricks, I can check for tungsten cores with a hole punch from an office supply store. That's useful information, not conspiracy theory.
I think it's funny how so many people will say "show me the evidence" and when confronted with the evidence, they say "I don't believe it" just because the truth doesn't confirm to their fantasy worldview.
and or they are moles to mis direct dis credit.
Worldview - indeed. This is not a small matter.
Worldview 'intertia' is going to be a major theme going forward. Some will snap out of their daze, while others will cling to their comforts. The facts unwind regardless.
When confronted from time to time with the usual 'conspiracy theory' and 'occam's razor' attacks of the typically a) ingrained thinking b) personal incredulity or c) devil's advocate kind, I respond with Bayesian probability. i.e. It is beneficial to hold multiple, simultaneous competing worldviews until facts reveal themselves which 'pinch out' the weak logic, leaving only the viables. It is not necessary to select a single argument, and in fact doing so may prevent you from uncovering facts.
And the search space narrows by the day. Stranger than fiction.
THANK YOU!
It is very hard to treat something as credible "evidence" that says gold is a "tangible asset with intrinsic value."
Gold is definitely tangible - I can pick it up, weigh it, melt it, etc. But it has no more intrinsic value than a fiat currency such as dollars. Dollars (and gold) only have value because people are able to exchange them for useful things (services, goods, etc.)
The only intrinsic value gold has that a dollar doesn't is that I can make jewelry with gold. It also has some intrinsic value for electrical contacts in certain applications. However, the vast majority of value attached to gold is notional - just as with dollars. I cannot eat dollar bills, nor can I use them to power nuclear power plants, nor can I use them to power a car. I can exchange dollars for grain, uranium, or gasoline however. The same is true for gold. Both have notional value. Neither has intrinsic value (beyond jewelry etc. as already mentioned).
This isn't meant to bash gold - I invest in gold as part of my portfolio. However, I am bashing the article, which incorrectly claims gold has intrinsic value. It is hard to take the article seriously when it makes such a fundamental error.
Gold has earned intrinsic value. It is a special metal with very unique properties. It is the civilized money of recorded history. It has resisted physical alchemy, as it will ultimately resist this episode of Ponzi alchemy. Dollars on the other hand, are conjured into existence and given value by threat of force. Dollars can be paper with pictures, and nothing more (as so much printed money in history has become), but gold will always be dug up and refined by real labor, and remain gold.
Correct. Just because something is not immediately understood, does not mean it is without cause or purpose.
If there was a more suitable store of value, we would know about it and would be using it when trust in everything else is being tested.
Geometry is function. For gold, as with most things, its properties define its function. The properties are too obvious to list, and taken together are unique and *authentic*.
Authenticity trumps any level of sophistication at a deep level in our minds and until our psychology changes gold will remain authentic to us.
I like gold because it trades in a range of one to infinity, while everything else trades in a range of zero to infinity. And i know, that if gold would ever trade at one, everything else would trade at zero.
dollars used to be silver certificates, they were backed by something, commonly accepted as valuable. what backs the dollar now? our childrens productivity, and stolen liberty. the dollar has become the dirty symbol, of total corruption. just about every government institution, has been looted, and saddled, with debt. we have defaulted on our debt twice, through inflation, and nixon shutting the gold window, the next default, will be a much bigger event.
Gold's intrinsic value derives from its monetary utility. Through the ages, man has deduced by trial and error, supported by thesis, that there is only one universally accepted form of money that fulfills the promise of credit (unit of exchange). Gold was adopted universally as a unit of account and as a measure of stored wealth. It functioned well in its role as a universal numeraire, until men with ulterior motives, conspired to convince people that there was a better alternative.
That the universal population can accept the promise of paper (with its inherent unlimited supply), as a numeraire for stored wealth, speaks volumes of their success.
That you accept gold as an investment item is confusing when you state that gold's primary utility is for jewelry. Why are you saving it in your portfolio? It must be instinct.
You state that you can use gold as a medium for exchange for useful things.
In today's world this is only true of dollars. People at large don't use gold as a medium for exchange. As you note, they use paper for that.
You don't save paper to protect stored excess labor and earned wealth credits. That's gold's role. You may save paper credit but you are constantly chasing yield in order to protect purchasing power. However, the CB's of the world, using their formulas MONEY CREATION via printing and credit issuance (money that hasn't been earned or printed yet) guarantee that you won't maintain that purchasing power through yield extraction. The trickle down effect of loss of purchasing power when new money is issued, from source through to your hands, also guarantees it. The exponential growth of paper through compounding interest (which reduces its rarity, ipso facto: value), also guarantees it.
Trust your instincts. Keep saving money (GOLD) and raise credit with it when you need to. That's what the rich do. They never sell it for dollars.
Nicely written but completely fallacious. $875 billion of paper US dollar currency is circulation and $6 trillion of gold in flotation. What really galls the Goldbugs is that US dollar currency is more rare than gold. LMFAO!!!
What galls me is that the value of the dollar is set by government force and a printing press, while the value of gold is set by the market and a definite, finite supply. Which one should we be using for currency?
Money in circulation? That's as deep as your estimation goes? You brush off as "fallacious" the logic of Aristotle, the genius of Newton, the firsthand experience of Adams, Franklin et al and the warnings of Jefferson. You are just as dismissive of the teachings of Rothbard and Mises or ignorant of the logic and veracity of their work.
Dismiss if you will the treason of Wilson, the theft by Roosevelt, the default by Nixon and the submission to their will by Clinton, aided and abetted with the full cooperation of the Bushes. You go about believing in the benevolence of government.
It was a close one for me for a minute there. Your utter genius, as supported by your amazing rebuttal, has almost rescued me from their devilish plot and turned me back to believing the dream.
Jewelry has no intrinsic value.
To some people, CARS have no value.
I laugh my ass off at the axiomatic proclamations around here about what DOES or DOES NOT have value. LOL
Everything has value. Do you realize that there is a shortage of Walnut shells? Yes it's true. If just 0.000004% of monetary reserves were invested in Walnut shalls, the price would rise by 1,000,000,000% and you'll be richer than your wildest imagination. Bernanke can print all the dollars he wants but he can't print Walnut shells. Plus, do you realize that 99.99999999% of all the Walnut shells ever processed no longer exist? That's right. Nearly all of the Walnut shells ever processed have been destroyed. We've reached the point of Peak Walnut Shells. If you own 1 lb. of Walnut shells, you're richer than 99.9999999999999% of the world's population when you measure wealth in terms of Walnut shells.
Wow. Good to know, about the walnut shells. If history and materials science ever rewrite themselves, it might actually be useful information.
then buy as many as you can then while the price is cheap.
if you ask me nicely i will sell you some.
In my 20 s i grew pot for an older short order cook who needed this retirement money. It was a great summer , part of it spent in a 2 story cabin. We peed late at nite by hanging it out the door. Peeing on the same rock nite aftre nite the deer followed the scent .Up on the second floor with a big rock to drop on the deers head as he came to lick the salt from the rock. I missed, but scared hell out of him.
During the day the bees came for the sugar. Value is in the most interesting places.
Here is an obvious rebuttal to your statement that dollar bills have the same intrinsic value as a gold coin. A sovereign, like the one above, is "worth" about the same as three $100 dollar bills. Now cut that coin into a hundred pieces and at the same time shred your dollar bills. You are left with a quarter ounce of gold, worth... about $300 and some utterly, INTRINSICALLY, worthless shredded paper.
If you honestly believe that gold has no intrinsic value, then by extension, nothing has intrinsic value. But that is a philosophical argument, not an economic one.
Indeed GG. The dollar is supposed to be based on 'Faith and Credit' of the US government. The US is the largest debtor nation in the world and in history and I have no faith in the people running the government. I don't even know if they want the US Constitution to be the foundation for its existence.
I guess lots of people don't see it that way. Has Magna Carta been reinstated yet?
Complete and utter lawlessness.
Plain and simple.
"The task of weaning various people and groups from the national nipple will not be easy. The sound of whines, bawls, screams and invective will fill the air as the agony of withdrawal pangs finds voice." --Linda Bowles
CFTC hearing: 100 to 1 leverage; enough said
Did they decide? I haven't heard.
I know I gave them an earful, though. Something along the lines of, "Dude. What are you nuts? You're going to sap the liquidity in the most free market in the world now? For what? To protect me from myself? Ten to one? Guess what, my account is on the next plane to Australia, thank you very much.
I tell you what, though. Why don't you stop picking on the little guy in the one market where he still has a fighting chance? Why don't you go after the COMEX for the manipulation in the price of gold and silver? Why don't y'all do something for real instead of punishing little ole retail forex (emini/commodity) traders?"
I only wonder how many letter like that one they received.
:D
Yes. CPM Group admitted it, GATA reps fell out of chairs.
I meant did they decide to not reduce retail forex traders to 10:1 leverage?
did they, bollocks
Nothing has been decided yet that I know of. Its still a proposal.
http://gordongekkosblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/its-going-to-implode-buy-ph...
I knew Don Smaltz fairly well before he became the Independent Counselor to investigate Bubba. Extremely credible and a relentless litigator. When he set up shop down in Arkansas nearby Tyson Chicken I thought that finally someone was going to blow the lid off this sinister network.
I was wrong. Pathetic Janet Reno "narrowed" the investigation at the same time Tom Lantos (CA) lashed out at Mr. Smaltz in the media calling him a "Nazi!"
A Nazi? As I waited for the press to (not dig deep) only just scratch the surface and discover that Smaltz not only had once married a Jewish woman but a 'key man' in his LA law firm was actually a black woman. How could Lantos get away with outwardly slandering an acting IC? Any wonder what Rahm Emanuel was doing for William Jefferson Clinton back in 1998? I don't. That out-of-control psychopath is only getting started folks.
And having Don Smaltz that close to Mena became a very very very dangerous event. It all ties in nicely with this explosive article. Anyone wonder who the next Chip Tatum could be? I guess that would depend on the definition of "be."
Some great documentaries are the "Clinton Chronicles" dated but good history. Also "Presidential Secrets" interview of "Chip" Tatum Code name: "Pegasus", interviewed by Ted Gunderson
We could get to the bottom of a lot of things if we could have a nice conversation with Felix Ismael Rodriguez.
Tyler,
Thanks for the post. However, the article is by Rob (not Ron) Kirby. His website is www.kirbyanalytics.com. The article was his latest post to his subscribers.
check this out
http://www.roadtoroota.com/public/225.cfm
the magnitude and ramifications of the fraud being undertaken will not be stopped by writing letters to the cftc. they will do ANYTHING to bury this.
default and international outrage is the only way. shame
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 14:16
#285274
check this out
http://www.roadtoroota.com/public/225.cfm
Alitak,
The spreading of Great! information to as many as possible is a Great! thing.
IMHO
Sincerely, JW
Skyler Murden,
His name is Rob Kirby.
He does good work, so he deserves a proper reference.
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 14:29
#285281
Skyler Murden,
His name is Rob Kirby.
He does good work, so he deserves a proper reference.
by Gordon_Gekkoon Sat, 04/03/2010 - 13:43
#285231
I think it clearly says "Submitted by Rob Kirby" at the top...
The Deacon,
Gordon_Gekko is a one sentence tool... but this sentence works... Tyler is an Angel, who spreads the truth... Tyler does not steal, pliagerize and / or take credit... what Tyler does do... is take Great! information and spread it... as well as act as a front for people who can Not! without fear share information under thier own name.
Tyler jumps out in front and provides cover for a Lot! of people, sanctuary and / or safe harbor for information as well as a fairly intelligent crowd to bounce the facts of off, for the betterment of all I might add.
Rob Kirby is Great! (at least this on story that I have read from him is Great!) and Rob being named clearly at the top... with the Blue underlined portion being a link to the original story...
The Genesis of the Gold-Tungsten: The Rest of the Story; Submitted by Ron Kirby, who first disclosed the LBMA/Physical Bullion disparity story in 2008 and 2009.
...speaks to Tylers commitment to honesty, and your ability to not read anything but comment any way.
Sincerely, JW
As your own cut-and-paste shows, the name is shown as "Ron", not "Rob". That's what the issue is.
Ratchet down on the steroid use when posting, that would be my advice.
Gordon_Gekko
thanks for the post of ever bank..
me and Chuck Buttler have some talks...
You're welcome!
Gordon_Gekko
who do you think ....the another is..
http://www.usagold.com/goldtrail/archives/another1.html
I have no idea.
Kirby is sure changing his tune.
On 12 Nov 2009, he said:
"Subsequently, 640,000 of these tungsten blanks received their gold plating and WERE shipped to Ft. Knox and remain there to this day. I know folks who have copies of the original shipping docs with dates and exact weights of “tungsten” bars shipped to Ft. Knox."
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1258049769.php
Now, in "tungsten genesis", Kirby is saying that the tungsten bars were made in E. Europe, shipped eventually to Arkansas, and then slowly placed in the US gold supply over many years. I don't understand what happened to the original shipping docs Kirby was talking about in October.
Notwithstanding this change in story, I agree with the rest of Kirby's observations about the obvious fraud in the gold supply, whether it be paper gold or tungsten gold or book-ledger gold.
Where there is smoke, there is fire.
Got gold?
"The tungsten slugs came from Eastern Europe - most likely a former strategic stockpile, a remnant of the failed Soviet Empire – which was "acquired" as spoils of Cold War victory during the reign of Bush I circa 1991-92. Between 1.3 and 1.5 million 400 oz tungsten blanks were actually produced in an Eastern European country [not the U.S. as I originally reported]. These tungsten blanks were shipped to Latin America [Panama] and then air-lifted on to Mena, Arkansas. From Mena, Arkansas, the tungsten blanks were shipped via truck [Brinks and Purolator] – 2 trucks at a time to a refinery in Southern California where they received their gold plating and stamping. ..
...Tungsten / gold bars destined for Ft. Knox were allegedly trucked direct to Kentucky for exchange with "what ever was left" in the depository which was stolen outright – but bringing the outstanding in Ft. Knox up to 640 thousand - 400 oz tungsten bars which are there now. " Maybe he is referring to the manifests of the bars that are there now...
"10,000 metric tonnes of fake gold bars earmarked for the intl. markets were supposedly hallmarked and "papered" as going through a holding facility of Engelhard [Vancouver] and trucked back to Mena, Arkansas and then on to Panama –
TO SIT - awaiting distribution into the intl. market."
The bars left Panama as tungsten and came back to Panama as gold.
From Wikipedia:
"U.S. relations with General Noriega spanned decades from 1959 to the early 1980s, when Noriega served as a U.S. intelligence asset and was on the Central Intelligence Agency's payroll. Noriega's relations with George H. W. Bush may have begun in the 1970s, when Bush was head of the CIA.[5] Noriega had worked to advance U.S. interests in Central America, notably in sabotaging the forces of the socialist government in Nicaragua, the Sandinistas, and the FMLN revolutionaries in El Salvador, receiving a salary upwards of $100,000 per year for his efforts.[6] Although he worked with the Drug Enforcement Administration to restrict illegal drug shipments, he was known to work with the drug dealers themselves simultaneously." -emphasis added
Think they didn't own Panama as well as Arkansas?
Too many "coincidences" yet?
I can say as a primary source that the U.S. relations with Noriega spanned into the late 1980's.
He was there up to the time Bush was running all this stuff through there. Then, I guess he couldn't be trusted?
I admire your courage for posting information that has been hazardous for many persons.
I'd bet that some of the gold previously hidden in the Philippines has found it's way to markets via channels like this.
If one questions the gold previously hidden in the PI - it seems substantiated by the Hawaiian court finding.
prove gold hidden in Phillippines .lol
Bring some forward , lets heft it , touch it. run our fingers through its cold metal thrill.
In fact prove anything. Prove that master bates is a person rather than an experience . Is there a dress in the house.
You can lead a horse to water.......
In a few days an article about the Yamashita gold?
http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2009/10/paul-mylchreest-thunder-road-re...
silver, is the magic bullet, not gold
silver takes out vampires and their squid brethren...its a well known fact
The gold bull market happened directly after Russia invaded Afgahnistan...
A result of nervous Saudi's I believe, but... prior to that action gold was less than $50 and climbed over night to $300 and ounce.
Staggering. The evidence. Detailed trail.
Awesome. This article ties it all up. Phenonomel piece of investigation.
Barrick's advisors. Barrick has been known as the back yard of the cabal shorting gold haters.
Martin Armstrong's bogus arrest. Safra's death. Greenspan's overt testimony that central banks will flood the market [with tungsten] should the hated gold price dare attempt to rise.
Piles of evidence. Piles of dead bodies.
Has anyone else seen how the manipulators signal to each other? Watch a one minute chart, or 5 minute, short term chart, one hour even. There will be a hugely long tail dropping to the point at which the cabal intends to smash the price. Within hours that tail will be deleted and never show up on the charts after that. Pretty soon, within hours or days (depending on the size of the drop) gold will be smashed to the price at the bottom of the [now disappeared] tail.
Makes me wonder why Ambrose has not answered my question on his blog about Maguire/CFTC hearings.
me too. i emailed all of the ones that i thought might look into it. nada.
Its the multitude of bad tidings, another daily discovery on top of the last.
I think it was best to remain ignorant.
Bankers steal
priest molest children
Politicians MISrepresent and obscure
Scientist lie! Global warming?
Santa and the tooth fairy. Our evolution is questionable.Our demise more certain. Theres a drug for each of these problems. Call me in the morning.
Sorry, too high to make good common sense. Is it friday? Good thing we are dumbing down the proles. Its just too much bad to take in the mind each day. Worse if the tent leaks and the ground is not level. Only good thing about sleeping outside is the refreshment you feel getting up in the nippy morning. You just dont get that in a house. Best night sleep was a windy nite in marin, above San Francisco on a bluff overlooking the sea. Chock ful of mosquitoes tho. Glad to get outa there.
I always found it interesting that the publisher of the Washington Post, during the time it was instrumental in the resignation of Richard Nixon, was Katherine Graham, daughter of Eugene Meyer.
Eugene Meyer was chairman of the Federal Reserve from 1930-1933.
http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=4611
I sit in my comfortable house, dry and warm, but feel those who are outside tonite as they are a part of me. Empathy and awareness suck sometimes. Aware, o yes many of us see the monster but know not how to slay it, nor even that we should embark on such diversion. Perhaps on american idol we can pierce the heart of truth, haha , lol. Ignore me, i cant make you happy tonite, my thoughts encumbered with fertile imaginary bolts of nuclear mushrooms. The fools know not what they grow, the frankenlies have a life of their own.
Are we on a list yet, will there be a knock on the door at 3 am? Never has the future been so uncertain for us all. Foreign powers too are affected and will have their say.
Raining to beat the band out there!.
Uh excuse me but I think I dropped a WTF over here.
I think MH is passing the dutchy on the left-hand-side...
For the record I didn't junk you merehuman even though that gluey porch treatment post deserved it. :-)
Happy beach blanket bingo bunny easter bonnet jelly baby everybody!
Much like having Oliver North in Afganistan protecting the poppy crop, errrrrr watching the troops.
I have posted the following on Ambrose E-P's blog, and will embark on a campaign to post similar questions on any msm website that accepts comments. Only public pressure will get them moving.
"Mr. E-P, you are quoted extensively in the following article. In the light of this please comment on the recent CFTC hearings and the accusations of Andrew Maguire"
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/genesis-gold-tungsten-rest-story
Worthwhile (maybe) posting something here. Be interesting to see if it is approved. Only 2 prior comments when I posted.
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/a-web-of-insider-trading-ch...
Out of all of these answers provided... out of all of the information shared.... I am glad that Tyler has decided to not let you Used Car Salesman, Gold Bugs... CENSOR us..... I am glad Tyler has disabled the Junk button for removing posts.
Gold Bugs using the Junk Button to CENSOR anything against Gold.
Bottom feeders... who would use any media possible to further their sales agenda... even at the expense of their fellow Countrymen’s and Countrywomen’s ability to exchange information for the betterment of all.
Treasonous, lil baby Squid... wanna be Goldman Sach’s personalities. Anything to make a buck... Never mind the truth, get rid of the truth... Push the sale, the A.B.C.’s Baby! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIIDseg7Gr8&feature=related
Buy! High! You are in on the bottom floor @ $1,100 an ounce!
I’m also continually reminded of the words penned by George Bernard Shaw …
“You have to choose between trusting to the natural stability of gold and the natural stability of the honesty and intelligence of the members of the government. And, with due respect to these gentlemen, I advise you to vote for gold.”
And for some balance... considering I Love George...
Both fear of financial collapse and hyperinflation is fueling the interest in gold. Stack's Blumenthal said that the gold business really took off when Merrill Lynch started to teeter in September and sold itself to Bank of America. "We saw people who have worked in financial markets for 10, 20, 30 years, buying physical gold for the first time," Blumenthal says. That's unusual: Wall Streeter’s often look down their noses at gold, which pays no interest and has no earnings potential.
But there's no broad consensus that gold is a panacea for all types of financial ills. Peter Kendall, co-editor of the Elliott Wave Financial Forecast, thinks that the nation is headed for deflation — and when consumer prices fall, the price of gold will fall with them. "We think gold will tumble," he says. Kendall thinks gold will be a buy when it's about a third cheaper, at $600 per ounce.
And, it should be pointed out, gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff. And many investors who have invested in gold mutual funds, which invest primarily in gold mining stocks, have been on a roller coaster. Gold funds lost 37.5% in October, according to Morningstar, and soared 21% in November.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/markets/2009-02-18-karats-invest-gold_N.htm
So Flag this Junk... spread your Fear and try to have real information removed to the detriment of your fellow Americans.
I am GLAD that your attempted Censorship has been curtailed by Tyler, You bottom feeding fear mongers! Again for you Lying sacks of shit.
And, it should be pointed out, gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
by if
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 13:33
#285219
Agreed. This unsubstantiated hyperbole is embarrassing. I realize ZH has a following of rather zealous gold bugs but catering to their paranoia is not good. In a modern technology driven economy oil, gas, uranium ...etc are strategically important, gold is not.
The craziest part is that the price premium in gold is largely attributable to speculators who plan to bury it in their backyard. That's so much smarter than buying real estate at ever more inflated prices because they're not making any more land.
· reply
· flag as junk (14)
by if
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 14:32
#285285
That does not tell me why gold will become strategically important. Gold is a historically significant commodity that is now insignificant. Diamonds fall into the same category. In an industrial economy energy, manufactured goods and perishable commodities are much more important. Gold prices have only a marginal impact on the world economy in comparison to a strategically important commodity such as oil.
· reply
· flag as junk (3)
by if
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 15:28
#285313
The decline of the USA is greatly exaggerated. If it comes it will not be for lack of gold. What matters today is technological leadership, the Dollar's reserve currency status, military power, energy and commodity reserves, arable land. If you have all of these gold is largely irrelevant.
· reply
· flag as junk (6)
by JW n FL
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 18:02
#285391
by if
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 13:33
#285219
Agreed. This unsubstantiated hyperbole is embarrassing. I realize ZH has a following of rather zealous gold bugs but catering to their paranoia is not good. In a modern technology driven economy oil, gas, uranium ...etc are strategically important, gold is not.
The craziest part is that the price premium in gold is largely attributable to speculators who plan to bury it in their backyard. That's so much smarter than buying real estate at ever more inflated prices because they're not making any more land.
Land or dirt is (forgive the pun) dirt cheap... http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=farm+land+hedge+fund&aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=farm+land+hedge&gs_rfai=&fp=95b809f9b4e151b1
and any kind of inflation will cause a run on food prices... which will cause a run on?
Sugar has outperformed Bank Stocks, Gold and or other... in the past 12, 18 and 24 months...
Sugar verses Corn for fuel?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/02/stop-big-corn/
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=7308
http://zfacts.com/p/63.html
I love this cheat sheet / graph site... http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Commodities.aspx?Symbol=SB1
Farmers Are Committed To Meet Increased Demand For Corn - 16 hours ago
"Further, since Brazil has failed to produce enough sugarcane to meet its own domestic ethanol needs, it makes no sense to replace our addiction on foreign ...
http://mobile.wallacesfarmer.com/index.aspx?ascxid=cmsNewsStory&rmid=0&rascxid=&args=&rargs=9&dt=634058534563432000&lid=a8yebu2d9qxnz7lo&adms=634058534562340000Xd81fadc028&cmsSid=36947&cmsScid=9
Sugar... food and fuel and thanks to the weather getting more and more expensive...
Kind of off topic but better than discussing the idiots and thier Buy High to sell Higher after they scare the shit out of the common man.
Be well, JW
· reply
· flag as junk (4)
by if
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 13:57
#285258
A fiat currency is just a way of pricing things. You can easily convert those Dollars into a basket of other commodities, stocks, bonds, currencies ...etc. Long gold is the equivalent of going short USD and by implication all of these other asset classes. That would not be a problem if gold was either a strategically important commodity or at least well priced relative to its production costs and industrial demand.
· reply
· flag as junk (5)
by if
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 14:50
#285292
Yes but then you are admitting that gold has little intrinsic value which leads us to the obvious development of fiat currencies. Of course in the end you must convert your currency (whatever that may be) back into something useful. Fortunately, our modern economy allows you to synthesize and hold a currency composed of necessities. Thereby mitigating the risk that something with little intrinsic value will lose its speculative premium.
· reply
· flag as junk (5)
I buy gold for the same reason I buy property insurance - to cover the losses I can't afford. It just seems prudent, but trying to convince someone else to emulate me is clearly a waste of time. All I can do effectively is set a quiet example. I also like silver, but my passion is uranium, as is probably obvious. (1st post on ZH - hi from Mn)
this is rich....even i learned something and i thought i knew about all of the illegalities of the scum soaked bush crime syndicate (bcs)....
if kirby has not published the rosetta stone of late 20th c. politics he has certainly shone a bright torch in a dark place and i truly fear for his life. the wicked works of the bcs are coming fully to light....
daddy bush and the cia were involved and directly responsible for the murder of john kennedy, martin luther king (see 1999 civil trial where the army and fbi took lead roles), robert kennedy, gerald ford, john lennon, and ronald reagan. their piece de la resistance was the world trade center which daddy bush directed when the wtc towers all collapsed from controlled demolitions using military grade nanothermite developed at sandia labs in 2000....of course the al-qaeda hoax must be late night entertainment of the bcs....the mass murder at ft hood a few months ago was a cia op as was the beltway murderer...
the clintons are stooges for the bcs...i did not know the significance of mena for tungsten but it perfectly makes sense. the wall street journal published this story in the 1990s - about cocaine via mena for fighting the sandinistas - where it gained absolutely no traction. and kirby almost hit the nail on the head regarding daddy bush running all kinds of crimes right under reagan's nose. but as a certain cia-murdered former cia director stated, the agency owns every single news outlet of signficance in america. of course the european press is freer and more vigilant in political matters...
prescott bush was involved in the establishment of the soviet government in 1917. the ussr was a gigantic bankster experiment for which they finally pulled the plug in the 1991 after they had secured a permanently huge military budget during the 1980s....daddy bush also used the arms for hostage tactic to release iranian hostages 5 minutes after reagan was sworn into office. bush was basically president for 28 years starting in 1981....
for all of the fucktards who think gold is meaningless and worthless, please explain why the banksters are expending so much time and effort to thwart it?
the bushes - along with their bankster ilk - are the most virulent cancer on the country...nixon was another of their victims....
thank you rob kirby...amerika is not the land of the free but merely a play ground of the rich and famous who have devoured the land like locusts....
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/8127
The Gold standard was first manipulated in 1922 in Genoa Italy--
The Standard was shelved--in order to allow for printing?credit expansion-for the "great war" and was promised to be reinstated at the succession of hostilities--
It was--the problem with that was--Gold was forcing deflation on all countries-mainly the US-because it was forced to ship out their "money supply"(gold) for war payment--
World Governments and of course-word bankers-met in Italy and agreed to re-price gold-almost doubling-the price--
This inflated the money supply by almost 100%-with the stroke of a pen--
These new notes were actually swaps (paper gold)
The birthplace of the derivative--
Along with the newfound money--margin trading was for the first time introduced-interest rates were lowered and easy credit became available--
The inflationary-roaring 20's was the result-
The 30's-were the result of credit-finding a ceiling--like it always does--like what happened in 07--
The pool of greater fools dried up--
Again 1n 1933-gold was repriced (after consfiscation)-
The final tie was cut in 1971-
Gold-although manipulated and no longer gold standard-was doing what it was supposed to-
Forcing deflation on the US--remember--foreign governments-demanded payment in gold-because they knew the US was overprinting and the USD's they were reciving as payment--were devaluing as the US inflated--The $ was rejected as final payment--gold was the "only" money--Gold had cut the nuts out of the $-It was the only money-accepted as final payment--
Volcker--is known for taming inflation-
This is a crock of shit--
Volcker--raised rates to "save" the dollar--
Cutting the link to gold-weakened the $ and a run was the result-
Governments and dollar holders--were dumping-buying up assets/commodities-causing prices to climb-
Of course--this was "called" inflation-another crock of shit--
With rates at 20+%--who could resist those returns?
Money flowed--back out of commodities and back into the $--
Prices came down--the $ strengethened--
The crises averted--
Volcker is credited for taming inflation--he should be credited for saving the $--
Well--it only temporarily saved it-for 40 years--
And look who's back again--
Gold and Volcker--
Volcker could sever the link to stop deflation-in 1971--
That game can't be played anymore-the gold window is shut--
What will they do-if/when the dollar has another run on it-somewhere in the future?
I'll take a guess--
They'll open the gold window--and buy gold to save the dollar--in fact-to save all currency's-
You'll want to be a gold holder-not if-but-when-that happens--jmo-
by Gordon_Gekko
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 13:44
#285233
I think it's funny how so many people will say "show me the evidence" and when confronted with the evidence, they say "I don't believe it" just because the truth doesn't confirm to their fantasy worldview.
Gordon_Gekko,
Gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
Sincerely, JW
That's kindof a cherry-picked time frame, isn't it?
Are you saying that things are the same now as they were in 1980? That this is just another "inflation scare"?
by delacroix
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 18:16
#285399
many currencies, have gone to 0 in value, what has gold done?
delacroix,
Gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
Sincerely, JW
more dollars, does not equal, more purchasing power, if they've lost value
by dumpster
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 17:12
#285370
gold will become important.. not become continue to be .... because it stands behind the bills, the paper promises, as a standard of value world wide,
Because it was recognized world wide as a payment in full.
this will now become the case again... the USA printed up so many IOUs,, that their value is questionable ,, gold in the future will be the final arbiteras payment for paper promise ,, ITs value will fluctuate in relationship to the total fiat production,
It will stand between the printing of bills and the true value of work, and the thieft of inflation as the bills lose value as more are printed ,,
thats the long and short of it.
Its not rocket science,
dumpster,
Gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
Sincerely, JW
by PhD
on Sat, 04/03/2010 - 13:47
#285239
Buying based on fear?
Hah!
Your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance.
You believe whatever you wish.
Given your inability to foresee the outcomes of the coming sovereign defaults, there is little point spending time on you
PhD,
Gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
http://www.animatedatlas.com/timeline.html
But this is the Big one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwM5KpoPPrg&feature=related / http://www.bible.ca/pre-date-setters.htm
Sincerely, JW
no offence fella, but you probably need to look into this subject a bit further.
as you don't seem to be learning that much on here. imho
on Sun, 04/04/2010 - 03:08
#285617
no offence fella, but you probably need to look into this subject a bit further.
as you don't seem to be learning that much on here. imho
boiow,
I guess you could have said that Money is worth less now than in the late 80's... due to the Fed flooding the markets... and that the maipulation is that much more pronounced?
I guess what I am saying, plainly is that Gold... is very much under-valued and that the Global Manipulation has gone on and been extremly successful for quite some time...
But the single view of yours that I some how need to read more...and thusly ignoring all the numerical facts... that yet further show a clear manipulation is to, too much to ask for before you have your first cup of coffee?
I would be interested at what the cost of Gold was before the Fed flooded the market in the 80's and afterwards... verses today's inflation adjusted numbers... I think it would be interesting to see how much more manipulation has gone on this go round, I have a feeling we all may be suprised at the level of intervention.
Have a good morning, JW
by JW n FL
on Sun, 04/04/2010 - 00:06
#285576
And, it should be pointed out, gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
******************************
Your figures were true-back in 2001--they are becoming less true-as deflation takes hold and gold climbs in price--
I think--from a dow/gold ratio of 44-1 in 2001 to a dow/gold ratio of 9-1 in 2010--
Your inflation adjustment--needs correcting--
the loss by inflation--is disappearing--
As deflation manifests itself-gold is strengthening--
http://home.earthlink.net/~intelligentbear/com-dow-au.htm
on Sun, 04/04/2010 - 02:46
#285612
******************************
Your figures were true-back in 2001--they are becoming less true-as deflation takes hold and gold climbs in price--
I think--from a dow/gold ratio of 44-1 in 2001 to a dow/gold ratio of 9-1 in 2010--
Your inflation adjustment--needs correcting--
the loss by inflation--is disappearing--
As deflation manifests itself-gold is strengthening--
*******************************************************************************
jimmyjames,
The dollar is a LOT! weaker now than it was in 2000... or 2001. "A LOT WEAKER!" you can Quote me... 20% in a decade? a 20% Loss? $0.80 on the dollar? Well that is terrible... Bush did a bang up job now didn't he?
1.
$850
in 1980
has the same buying power as
$2,235.80
in 2009
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
$850
has the same buying power asin 1980
$1,826.88
in 2001
Or....
What cost $850 in 1980 would cost $1799.20 in 2001.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2001 and 1980,
they would cost you $850 and $359.46 respectively.
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi
What cost $850 in 1980 would cost $2184.48 in 2009.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2009 and 1980,
they would cost you $850 and $290.24 respectively.
Or..... http://www.coinnews.net/tools/cpi-inflation-calculator/
So, 20%(ish) loss... 2001 dollar for 2009 / 2010 dollar... so? Buying Gold, today... with Today's money... gets you? or Golds Value that was purchased in 1980... is still...
Gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/markets/2009-02-18-karats-invest-gold_N.htm
Adjusting for inflation, meant the 1980 record high price was actually $2,079 an ounce at 2006 prices, while, according to precious metals consultancy GFMS, the real average price in 1980 was calculated at $1,503.
http://www.goldprice.org/buying-gold/2008/01/what-happened-to-gold-price-in-1980.html
The dollar is a LOT! weaker now than it was in 2000... or 2001. "A LOT WEAKER!" you can Quote me... 20% in a decade? a 20% Loss? $0.80 on the dollar? Well that is terrible... Bush did a bang up job now didn't he?
*********************************
Is the dollar that much weaker today--then 1980?
Let's see--
Prices on the other hand are falling-especially against gold--as shown in the dow/gold ratio chart--
But--the $ is also strengthening--measured against CS-CPI--
Home prices for example-are excluded in the reported Fed data--
This is a more accurate gage of real prices--
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/SYl249oUKhI/AAAAAAAAFik/ZFCEH7YD_f...
This is a recent chart-where you can see the stimulus goose--but--how long will that last as a price support--I say we revert back to negative--unless--they pump some more--
There is no doubt--prices are falling as purchasing power from (unemployment) decreases--
So--your inflation comparison has to compare with--for example "house prices" 1980-2010--
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/SiLQpzcLtqI/AAAAAAAAGK4/rwd7uX0mny...
You can see in that chart--we are right back to 1980 levels--
So for example--it would take the same number of gold/ozs.--or dollars-- to buy a home in 1980--as it does today--
Here is a good example of gold holding its value against oil--same number of ozs. will buy the same number of bbls today--as it did in 1980--
http://www.incrediblecharts.com/images/png_images/gold-oil_ratio_30yrs.png
This chart USD/gold spread--shows little change--1980 to today
Also-we have to keep in mind--as of today at least--prices are being held up by stimulus--this can't continue-and-if they (gov/fed) had not interfered with cash drops--prices would be much lower--meaning--the inflation numbers you use--would have cooked off by now--
Gold/house price ratio--
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2010/Mar/us-housing-26.gif
Gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
Gold has not lost to inflation-since 1980
Prices "will" again fall against the $ and gold--just like they did in the 30's--
Everything deflated against gold and the dollar--they are and will continue to do so--
Why cherry pick the numbers to start out at its peak in 1980 against current prices. Why not start back when gold was 20 dollars an ounce in the 1920's... because maybe you just want prattle off your incorrect view point?
I love how stupid people keep bringing up gold's old higher right before Volker increased interest rates to double digits. What a way to disingenuously review the facts.
Wait for the agents of Cass Sunstein, they should be posting comments trying to refute "conspiracy theories" any moment. JW FL, Master Bates, etc. The ones that seem to have a dog in the race. There is only one question to bring them all to their knees, I have been thinking about it for a long time, here it goes:
Why did Nixon close the gold window?
It is that simple. Checkmate. If paper is so valuable and gold is such a barbarous relic, then why was a US President worried about draining all the gold from the United States. If paper was far superior, why wouldn't Nixon have wanted to trade the worthless gold for paper that can just be printed?
Understand that without a foundation, the entire financial system would operate without any laws - like trying to live without gravity. Gold is and always has been that foundation - like gravity for financial systems. The currency of countries without reserves have always lost value to those countries with reserves.
Now, an Ipod or Ipad or any other technical work of art would be infinitely more valuable than gold to someone that lived 200 years ago. So understand that value is different depending on what people want. Self defense, stored food, and other emergency preparations are smart just to be a good boy scout and be prepared (more important). If you don't have surplus savings, the whole gold argument is not even relevant. If you do have surplus savings and want to maintain buying power, gold is good.
Gravity. Whata crock. Tinfoil hat wearers is what they are. It's a barbarous idea that has no attraction. Can't eat gravity.
Heh - yes indeed Paco, I have resisted engaging these fools. If we are all perishing, then no insurance will suffice, but if we are merely frost heaving another Kondratieff Winter, then they will certainly freeze to death alone. If they are agents of misinformation (cluebat: they accuse goldbugs of being, wait for it.... agents of misinformation), then I say to them, you have already failed. You persuade no one.
on Sun, 04/04/2010 - 07:28
#285660
Heh - yes indeed Paco, I have resisted engaging these fools. If we are all perishing, then no insurance will suffice, but if we are merely frost heaving another Kondratieff Winter, then they will certainly freeze to death alone. If they are agents of misinformation (cluebat: they accuse goldbugs of being, wait for it.... agents of misinformation), then I say to them, you have already failed. You persuade no one.
Crime of the Century,
1. $850 in 1980 has the same buying power as $2,235.80 in 2009
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
$850 in 1980 has the same buying power as $1,826.88 in 2001
Or....
What cost $850 in 1980 would cost $1799.20 in 2001.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2001 and 1980,
they would cost you $850 and $359.46 respectively.
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi
What cost $850 in 1980 would cost $2184.48 in 2009.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2009 and 1980,
they would cost you $850 and $290.24 respectively.
Or..... http://www.coinnews.net/tools/cpi-inflation-calculator/
So, 20%(ish) loss... 2001 dollar for 2009 / 2010 dollar... so? Buying Gold, today... with Today's money... gets you? or Golds Value that was purchased in 1980... is still...
Gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/markets/2009-02-18-karats-invest-gold_N.htm
Adjusting for inflation, meant the 1980 record high price was actually $2,079 an ounce at 2006 prices, while, according to precious metals consultancy GFMS, the real average price in 1980 was calculated at $1,503.
http://www.goldprice.org/buying-gold/2008/01/what-happened-to-gold-price-in-1980.html
New York Spot Gold... $1126.40 an oz. http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html
What cost $1126.40 in 2009 would cost $438.29 in 1980.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 1980 and 2009,
they would cost you $1126.40 and $3298.82 respectively.
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
So... Today... gold is half the $850 overnight run price... roughly(ish)? $1126.40 2009 dollars ='s $438.29 1980 dollars? WOW!
It's my money... I never asked for you're opinion. Gold has been money for over 6 thousands years but You call person's who want gold fools. Go post on another topic if you don't like Gold and it's investors... Please.
Gold has lost ground to inflation from its 1980 peak of $850 to now. Adjusted for inflation, $850 in 1980 would be $2,221. Those who bought gold during the last inflation scare are still waiting for the big payoff.
What they gonna do Jay Dub? Raise interest rates? HAHAHAHAHA!
JW n FL, you are a wanna be pirate. You use a jolly roger as an avatar picture, but real pirates LOVE gold doubloons and silver pieces of eight.
It would appear you are a barbarous relic and stuck in 1980, why the obsession with 1980? Perhaps because in 1980, the top grossing film was the Empire Strikes Back - good parallel to what happened to the gold price at that time in history.
Clearly you must understand that Volcker raised rates to defend the dollar and reward savers.
Why not look at the last 10 years when gold was the best performing asset having appreciated 400% versus a loss in stocks - why don't you show the loss in inflation adjusted dollars since 2000?
For a longer time horizon, take a look at the value of the dollar since 1913 and the value of an ounce of gold over the same time period. Then take a look at the value of the original companies in the Dow - only GE survives.
Once all the wealth in paper gold finds its way back into real gold, real gold prices will rocket.
1980, maybe his birthday? GE is on life support, and might not make it
Enjoyed the back and forth on Gold and conspiracy..Bushes, Clinton's, Banks, CIA,
Drugs, Sandinistas,murder and high crimes..
gotta be a novel (s)in all this. John D McDonald would have Travis McGee knee deep in this stuff..too bad we do not have anyone writing today who is up to his standard.
I have one question for the gold buyers: Why havent large gold miners pushed the Tungsten story and the manipulation on the futures exchanges?? seems strange unless it is false.
I have one question for those who belittle owning and investing is physical gold: What
if fiat currency (FRNotes) are replaced by another currency as a means of voiding the national debt..(I am sure most here on ZH know the history of money in the ol U S OF A and it's various past forms (gold notes, silver notes, bank notes, treasury notes...a long history of replacing our currency.)
would that desperate act make reasonable men
turn to gold & silver?? and at what price would it be valued?
LOL
Awesomely put together.
ROB KIRBY !!!
A GOOD CANADIAN LAD!
Gold's lost to inflation - compared to what? The dollar?
If I had held USD$850 since 1980, it's value has declined by over 50%.
If I'd held an ounce of Gold since 1980, it's value has increased to ~USD$1120.
One would have certainly lost out to inflation had they sold Gold at $850 back then - for those intrinsically valuable dollars.
This is interesting. I will be sure it is posted at the newest gold-silver forum (www.gold-silver.us/forum), which resulted from the disintegration of GIM.
Wow, I have had to abandon various online forums and communities over the years due to the conspiracy theorists taking over the joints,....
About Mena, there is no proof Mena Airport was used for Tungsten smuggling......
Wall Street Journal 3/3/99 Micah Morrison "…Since drug smuggling at Mena is established beyond doubt, a brief review of some facts seems in order: Mena was a staging ground for Barry Seal, one of the most notorious drug smugglers in history. He established a base at Mena in 1981, and according to Arkansas law-enforcement officials, imported as much as 1,000 pounds of cocaine a month from Colombia. In 1984 he became an informant for the Drug Enforcement Administration, flying to Colombia and gathering information about leaders of the Medellín cartel. He testified in several high-profile cases, and was assassinated in Baton Rouge, La., in 1986. Two investigators probing events at Mena say they were closed down--William Duncan, a former Internal Revenue Service investigator, and Russell Welch, a former Arkansas State Police detective. They fought a decade-long battle to bring events at Mena to light, pinning their hopes on nine separate state and federal probes. All failed. And Messrs. Welch and Duncan were stripped of their careers. In 1986, Dan Lasater, Little Rock bond daddy and an important Clinton campaign contributor, pleaded guilty to cocaine distribution. The scheme also involved Mr. Clinton's brother, Roger. Both Mr. Lasater and Roger Clinton served brief prison terms. Gov. Clinton later issued a pardon to Mr. Lasater. On Aug. 23, 1987, teenagers Kevin Ives and Don Henry were run over by a northbound Union Pacific train near Little Rock in an area reputed to be a haven for drug smugglers…. In 1990 Jean Duffey, the head of a newly created drug task force, began investigating a possible link between the train deaths and drugs. Her boss, the departing prosecuting attorney for Arkansas's Seventh Judicial District, gave her a direct order: "You are not to use the drug task force to investigate public officials." In a 1996 interview with the Journal, Ms. Duffey said: "We had witnesses telling us about low-flying aircraft and informants testifying about drug pick-ups." Dan Harmon, who had earlier been appointed special prosecutor for the train deaths, took office in 1991 as seventh district prosecutor. Ms. Duffey was discredited, threatened, and ultimately forced to flee Arkansas. In 1997, a federal jury in Little Rock found Mr. Harmon guilty of five counts of drug dealing and extortion, and sentenced him to eight years in prison for using his office to extort narcotics and cash…"
The New Australian No 134 9/20-26/99 James Henry "….Mena is the name of a tiny Arkansas town that conjures up in the minds of many (right and left) CIA conspiracies involving drug smuggling and gun running. That the CIA ran guns out of Mena to arm guerrillas fighting Central American Marxist-Leninist regimes is true. That it authorised drug-trafficking is not. (This is something I will return to in a later article). One Barry Seal was being used by the CIA to parachute arms to the Contras. It later came to light that Seal decided to do a little subcontracting of his own, using the CIA operation to smuggle drugs into the US. An easy task as the CIA made sure his plane received automatic customs clearance. This was to prevent unauthorized personnel gaining access to the plane's highly advanced electronic equipment. Obtaining the drugs was an easy matter for Seal who had already been involved in drug trafficking. Seal was shot down by three Colombians in February 1986. Fortunately, witnesses to his activities are still able to testify. L. D. Brown, Arkansas state trooper, Clinton bodyguard and close friend, was instructed by Clinton to accompany Seal on several of his flights. It was on one of these that Seal revealed his drug-trafficking activities. Horrified, Brown complained to Clinton. His response? "That's Lasater's deal. That's Lasater's deal." Clearly, Lasater, a close associate of Clinton, was the vital link between Mena and the US cocaine distribution network. Needless to say, Lasater had been extremely generous to Clinton's never-ending election campaigns and their relationship had blossomed into one of financial intimacy. No wonder there was an explosion of mob activity after Clinton became governor. The rise of the 'Arkansas Mafia' under Clinton's governorship saw drug trafficking operations and prostitution rackets rocket. What is particularly disturbing is that the left-wing mainstream media knew of these fact and yet decided to ignore them. It considered shipping guns to anti-Marxist guerrillas was the real crime, not importing cocaine with the cooperation of a Democratic governor who now occupied the Oval Office….."
The New Australian 10/25/99 James Henry "….Mena is a small out-of-the-way quiet Arkansas town. The CIA considered its location and size would allow it to operate its huge C-123 military transport without any embarrassing questions being asked. That Bill Clinton, the state's governor, was willing to cooperate by turning a blind eye to the gun-running operation was an added advantage. It seems to have never occurred to CIA planners to ask why someone who had demonstrated in support of communist North Vietnam was now only too willing to cooperate with the CIA in arming Nicaragua's anticommunist guerrillas. Lasater turned out to be the answer. Barry Seal was picked to make the runs. It is now no secret that Seal had been a former drug-smuggler who had become a Drug Enforcement Administration operative and a CIA contract employee…… Seal was to make arms drops to the Contra's and then return to Mena. That's when the almost came into it. Far from being reformed character, Seal was once again on the make. Whether out of greed, a sense of adventure or both, he decided to return to his old profession of drug smuggling….."
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The Washington Weekly 2/20/95 Marvin Lee "….. Feb. 20, 1995 Marvin Lee - Interview of Judge Jim Johnson ……..MR. LEE: In his press conference in October of last year President Clinton denied having any knowledge of or involvement in the Iran-Contra operation and drug smuggling at Mena, Arkansas. Was the President telling the truth, or is there any evidence to the contrary?
JUDGE JOHNSON: The President was not telling the truth, and there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Former Congressman Bill Alexander (D-Ark. - 1), is one of my best friends on earth. He did a personal favor for me one time, and if I lived forever I would never have time to repay him. Bill served the First Congressional District of Arkansas for 24 years, and during that time he took a special interest in the activities in Mena. He made me privy to the depositions he took from three of the most credible witnessess in that project, which left absolutely no doubt in my mind that the government of the United States was an active participant in one of the largest dope operations in the world, and that the Governor of Arkansas enjoyed a benefit from its success.
Alexander told me that he had ten boxes full of additional evidence just as credible as that he had showed me, and that he had attempted to make all of it available to every person in government in a position of authority from the Attorney General of the United States, on down, and that he had been stonewalled at every juncture. He said that every one of them spurned his offer, and continues to do so. I told him I knew two reporters in this state in which I had some confidence, and asked for permission to furnish them copies of the three depositions he gave me. Alexander gave me permission, and I mailed the depositions to the reporters. That has been over a year ago and I am yet to hear from them! The last time Bill Alexander was in this state, he called and told me that it looked like at long last the public was going to get a break in the Mena case; that the discovery process in the Terry Reed civil lawsuit was going to afford the opportunity to question the main principals in the Mena activity, and that under the pains of perjury the truth was ultimately going to be told.
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Gold has unique value as flight capital - portable, concealable.
It is protection against confiscation of private property by desperate governments. It is the currency of revolution.
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