German ProSieben TV Channel Finds 500 Gram Tungsten Bar At W.C.Heraeus Gold Foundry With Bank Origin

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Mon, 03/01/2010 - 17:41 | 250065 spekulatn
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Tungsten Bitches

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 17:59 | 250104 Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

black ops. counterfeits are planted to depress demand.

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 18:04 | 250123 spekulatn
spekulatn's picture

black ops. counterfeits are planted to depress demand.


Don't forget hedge fund managers ;>

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 18:17 | 250145 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

With the disclaimers, how the GLD ETF trades aithout a severe penaly to the POG is a mystery to me. The details say they have no guarantee that the ETF doesn't hold a whole bunch of tungsten. I await the day the ETF is found to be as big a fraud as SRS and FAZ.

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 18:33 | 250179 Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

what lessons to learn from your book?

"don't trust your government"


Mon, 03/01/2010 - 19:21 | 250288 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

What are your fraud allegations for SRS and FAZ based on? Just curious.

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 23:43 | 250590 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

The math doesn't make sense.  They claim to leverage 2x or 3x against the performance of the real-estate index or the banking index.  Since Jan 08, XLF has fallen roughly 50% so SKF should be up 100%.  Somehow it is down 100 to 22, 88%.  The same math problem causes all of these to merely deteriorate on a long scale and only have short-term bounces.  Say XLF is priced at 100 and FAZ is priced at 100.  Assume XLF goes to 110, FAZ goes down roughly 30.  Assume XLF goes back to 100, FAZ (now ~70), goes up 30% (10% * 3) which puts it at 70*.30+70 = 91.  So even though you were right about XLF staying near 100, you lose.  This happens on all time scales.  Granted, the issuers do say they are for short-term trades only.




Tue, 03/02/2010 - 00:20 | 250625 Budd Fox
Budd Fox's picture

It is well known...the leveraged ETFs are junk, the tracking error is ridicolous and they literally decay at the time value of an option...they should be outlawed fast ...

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 01:13 | 250669 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

That's why you short both. Arbitrage bitches.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 01:45 | 250691 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

That's why you short both. Arbitrage bitches.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 06:44 | 250791 35Pete
35Pete's picture

Now THIS is as good as any reason to read the posters on ZH. Thanks Bud!. 

Just last week I opened a position on SRS the afternoon prior to the MBA report. All my work indicated that the res mortgage situation was going to crap, and sure enough it was. 

What happened to my position? SRS gapped DOWN overnight and continued to slide through the day. It didn't make a damn bit of sense. Now, I take plenty of small losses. That's the nature of the beast. And I closed this one pronto. But that's not what frosted me. What frosted me is how this ETF seemed to move opposite of the market information at hand. It's the one time that I screamed FOUL! and nearly lost it. My trading friends, who did not play it that day, couldn't understand it's odd movement either. It's as if the position was completely decorrelated from the market. Me felt like a "pigeon" that morning. 

What about SSO/SDS? I noticed that SSO moves well with SPX, but SDS is quite sluggish. Same thing? 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 09:21 | 250846 RhoRhoRhoBoat
RhoRhoRhoBoat's picture

Housing stocks rallied.  This is a no-brainer.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:18 | 251026 Howard_Beale
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The SRS tracks REITS. Top ten holdings are:

Simon Property Group Inc. 9.03% Vornado Realty Trust 5.00% Public Storage 4.15% Annaly Capital Management Inc. 3.81% Boston Properties Inc. 3.69% Equity Residential 3.67% HCP Inc. 3.52% Host Hotels & Resorts Inc. 2.92% Ventas Inc. 2.72% Avalonbay Communities Inc. 2.65%


Do your homework.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 04:17 | 250758 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The math makes perfect sense. You apparently don't understand how SRS works. It tracks daily movements, not overall movements. Which creates a long term tracking error -- *and* a guaranteed trend to zero.

Anyone holding SRS long in the hopes that it will move counter to the DJRI over time is an idiot, and should read the prospectus more carefully before investing.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:33 | 251238 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

Sorry, the math does make sense as I laid out above in the short-term - I misspoke.  What I meant to say is that investing in them for the long-term does not make sense.  My math example shows why the daily movements (10% up then ~10% back down) and why the daily calculations produce the long term results of declining towards zero. 

The person below this, yes, they will track towards zero and then they do reverse splits to keep their price up.

I think any inverse does this.  As for double longs, I'm not sure.  Never thought about it much.  I would think that it depends if it doubles the dollar amount or the percent to determine if the rate of return declines or increases. Moreover, try not to trade news too often.  It generally fails.  I've learned from experience.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 05:14 | 250774 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Read the damn prospectus idiot. They track the markets change on a DAILY BASIS NOT a cumulative basis. If you don't understand what I just wrote then you are not sophisticated enough to be buying the leveraged ETFs.

BTW, they are designed that way so that they don't go to (near) 0.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:13 | 251015 Ghostdog
Ghostdog's picture

Its not so much fraud, as much as it is how much confidence you have in a 13 year old kid running most of these ETF's in their garage.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:41 | 251458 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Sam Clemons,

Read the damn prospectus! It tracks the DAILY movements only.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 18:39 | 251634 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

I know.  I've read the prospectus.  Read my post about daily movements.  Which makes my proof correct.  I was mainly pointing out what has happened over the long term to SKF proving that it does not cumulatively track it.  Calm down.

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 23:29 | 250576 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

That's why you only buy small coins, bitches! No one is going to bother with less than a grand...

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 23:29 | 250579 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

To be sure, it depresses trust and thus demand.
But doesn't it also indicate there is less gold than meets the eye? Which suggests the price should be higher.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 00:33 | 250644 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

It would seem the pressure of the U.S. presidency - and all those White House receptions - are taking their toll after the 48-year-old's first medical checkup since winning the race to the White House. Obama's personal team of Doctors are now stating that Obama should give up the booze for medical grade marijuana.

The doctors go further on to say that Obama should give up the cigarettes and switch to using a vaporizer for his medical grade marijuana to increase his level of THC intake while causing minimal damage to the lungs. The quitting cigarettes is a no brainier. What kind of role model is he wanting to be with the American public? The marijuana/alcohol trade-off is a more "sticky" issue.

Studies conducted by have proven that the consumption of marijuana is MUCH more safer than the consumption of alcohol. No one has ever died from marijuana alone, and domestic and violent disputes often involve alcohol. Based on these findings, the citizenry of Denver voted in referendum I-100 to legalize the use of marijuana back in 2005.

Not that much of these details matter much to President Obama. It's not like he is beating his wife or getting DUIs. But some peace activists say that the President could do more to bolster his anti-war, and puffing of a bong in front of the camera could be just the ticket. While other activists worry, what if Obama takes it personaly when the green back breaks the buck and the country collaspes that he may become "trigger happy" with the nukes if he continues on with the binge drinking.

He might think that it was the revenge of the south to put him in the White House when the country is about to go bankrupt, and start firing missiles like a mad man. But none of this is his fault, as it was set in motion years ago by the corporations and bankers and sold out DC politicians. Obama's therapist states he may better off dealing with these stressful events better by smoking some medical grade marijuana than reaching for the next beer.

His family will be safer, the world will be safer, and he will be healthier and happier. The president is pretty healthy otherwise, eats modest portions and exercises regularly. He is an avid basketball player and golfer.

Although he looks 10 years older after getting into the White House, that is mostly from the burden of knowing he reports to the New World Order and knowing Israel is moments from blasting Iran into the Straights of Gomez. He knows the pressure will be on him after just winning the Nobel Peace Prize and surprising most of the civilized world.

The world will be watching to see if the President displays his peacful playfull side and ignore the midlle east, or will he turn into another "Bush" blasting away imaginary enemies to make himself look good?"

The Wall ST Onion says "yea" to the President toking off the pipe and staying off the booze!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 05:02 | 250770 merehuman
merehuman's picture

figured the prez was a stoner.

you took my money, but you aint gitten my stash

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:55 | 251279 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

i wonder if his doctors know about his proclivities for coke and gay sex? hope he plays safe, at least he gets the good shit.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 03:06 | 250739 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

doesn't this increase demand for the real thing?

1. people who own gold have more reason to assay it to make sure its real.
2. when they find more counterfeit they will demand the real thing.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 10:02 | 250869 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

So should I cut open all my Pamp Suisse assay cards and go through each piece of bullion? 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:06 | 251400 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I don't think so. what was fake,if you notice, was the ingot that the refinery got not what they produce. They're like quality control. Their bars and yours are serialed number. It seems from this article and video that for now it's the producers that have to be wary of the gold products they receive not the consumer. so to answer your question ,no you don't have to cut you bars open.

Fri, 03/05/2010 - 00:18 | 254530 hbjork1
hbjork1's picture

No need to cut bars open. 

The speed of sound in tungsted is almost twice that for gold.  With the right apparatus, the bar can be "pinged" to determine whether or not it is gold. 

Vibration test suppliers sell accelerometer equipped "hammers" that can be used to check metal shapes to be tested for resonant frequencies.   The device will need an oscilloscope to store and observe the "vibe" response and perhaps a second accelerometer temporarly glued (superglue) to the bar to look for layers. Different metals will have differend slopes on the accelerometer output traces.

Anyone who has a large store of gold could afford the method.



The equipment could be rented.  It is standard hardware in the vibration test business.




Tue, 03/02/2010 - 03:08 | 250741 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

doesn't this increase demand for the real thing?

1. people who own gold have more reason to assay it to make sure its real.
2. when they find more counterfeit they will demand the real thing.

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 18:41 | 250198 Gordon_Gekko
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Courtesy of JP Morgan.

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 18:47 | 250217 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Ha ha!
Gold is for suckers.
Go get'em Gordo.

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 23:16 | 250561 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

there is a big difference between bars and coins.

at least so far, ..........i think?

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 01:19 | 250674 RossInvestor
RossInvestor's picture

The newsletter writer who broke the story on the gold T-bars is Rob Kirby.  According to him and a subsequent report by Jim Willie, the fraud was undertaken during the Clinton Administration by Alan Greenspan and Robert Rubin.  Kirby and Willie estimate 1.3 - 1.5 million 400 oz. gold-plated T-bars were fabricated.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:33 | 251236 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

1.3 - 1.5 million 400 oz. gold-plated T-bars were fabricated.

$600,000,000,000 estimated street value. 

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 22:08 | 250485 dark pools of soros
Tue, 03/02/2010 - 00:01 | 250609 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

counterFIAT everythang!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:35 | 251244 Gold...Bitches
Gold...Bitches's picture

Wolfram auf der ganzen Welt

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:09 | 251304 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Somebody neeeds to work on Google's German translator! 

The story is about, "tongues 10 (cm) in blonde," not, "tungsten in gold!"

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:57 | 251281 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I just called the Manhattan office of Heraeus 212.752.2180.
They told me that the clip being trumpeted on the net is from 10 years ago. Not that there aren't crooks out there faking anything of value but the current table pounding is over very old news.

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 17:41 | 250066 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Well well, the dam is beginning to show cracks and seepage. May I suggest that this will be spun as some local trying the game the system? Of course, no "official" media station will ask the really tough questions.

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 19:44 | 250313 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Like what amazing new technology did these alchemists use to turn gold into tungsten?

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 20:13 | 250349 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture


Yeah, that's the ticket. Along those lines.

Or like "How did they pour the tungsten in the middle of the Gold? It is like making chocolate bunnies?"

Or maybe "Wow, tungsten. It must be worth even more than gold if it's in the center? Does it have chewy caramel and peanuts too?"

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 20:46 | 250396 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

People often forget that metal of triple or 4-Nines purity is produced (refined) electrolytically.

Theoretically all you have to do is plate a shaped bar of tungsten with .999 gold to a thickness that will support the stampings. The tungsten bar could be easily formed into an ingot shape using a process called electrochemical machining (ECM) which I have done lots of over the years. (Great process to make turbine blades with a .1 thou tolerance!)

It looks like these guys however overdid the gold thickness and thus probably just heated a suspended tungsten bar in an ingot mold to around 2,200-2,500F (melting requires 6,000 degrees+) and poured a melt of .999 Au around it. (Rather wasteful)

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 22:52 | 250525 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Based upon the video, it looks like the core was less than 50% by volume when you consider the total amount of top and bottom, sides and ends. I was also surprised how think the "coating" was.

Still, being paid Gold prices for 200 grams of tungsten times x number of bars per day is a decent days work, wouldn't you say? The first thing I thought was black ops to suppress the price of Gold.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 00:21 | 250628 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

I think it will have the precise opposite effect!

Mon, 03/01/2010 - 23:23 | 250570 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Omg! And if I had a nation of underpaid people that I could force to... But I would need gold... Oh wait...

Chinese alchemy bitches!!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 06:49 | 250792 35Pete
35Pete's picture

Holy crap. You can get .1 mil tolerance?? I work on printed circuit board technologies and we etch to .5 mil. .1 mil is incredible. 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 09:29 | 250850 Hughe Crapper
Hughe Crapper's picture

No problem. I sport one out every hour. ;)

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 19:50 | 251711 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Not a photoresist/circuitboard/FeCl situation... ECM on turbine blades. If you are out a bit well you know what happens.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 11:00 | 250914 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Tungsten (W) is the hardest metal on the periodic table and the metal with the highest melting point. Gold boils well before the temperature at which W melts. W is also relatively non-reactive chemically. Very difficult to form and machine, requiring expensive equipment and know-how. Probably would have to produce a fair number faux bars to turn a profit.

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