GM Breaks For Trading

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Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:44 | 737519 FOC 1183
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Government funded study uses Moody's "Minus Sign Not Recognized" models to show that the return on jobless claims is 100% (multiplier = 2).  We can all quit now, collect benefits, and watch GDP double to infinity and beyond in an infinite feedback loop

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:45 | 737523 CashCowEquity
CashCowEquity's picture

I just took a "GM" and flushed it down the toilet.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:21 | 737645 asteroids
asteroids's picture

My bet is that all the POMO money that the Market Makers have made this week has be held in reserve to prop up GM. I couldn't image hedge funds trying to game this nonsense.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:22 | 737648 Red Neck Repugnicant
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Did you guys just see the interview with Girsky on CNBC?  He just said that the majority of all GM vehicles will be (or have the option of being) hybrid or electric.  

That's massive news.



Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:35 | 737698 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That sounds like a pronouncement from their government masters, more than a sound business decision.  

Either these vehicles will receive huge subsidies to make them affordable, or they won't be affordable, and GM will go bankrupt AGAIN.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 13:26 | 738079 DoChenRollingBearing
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That might also mean a bigger then expected demand for rare earth metals coming.

The pronouncement does have a politically correct nature to it.  It does not sound like a free company, making decisions on how to make money.

I predicted yesterday that GM stock will be a very bad investment.  Now we will see!

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 13:56 | 738176 defender
defender's picture

Lets be honest, that would require more rare earths than there are production capacities.  All of this on top of increasing rare earth costs and rising raw material costs slamming into stagnant or dropping average wage is a non starter.  I just hope that the government isn't stupid enough to bail them out again.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 14:20 | 738252 hbjork1
hbjork1's picture


You are exactly right.  To avoid a long note, lets just say I have depth of background in "high energy density" battery technology, starting in the 70's and watched with anguish this trip by GM into an area that they cannot possibly make money on in the long run. 

Real fuel prices must be higher by a factor of 2 or 3 before batterys can economically make a dent in IC engine market.  Best uses would be local delivery, city busses and limited use vehicles (ie to and from work only) that could be plugged in at night. Power to heat or air condition the vehicle must come from somewhere. For the IC engine, waste heat is still sufficient.  Cooling the vehicle in hot weather can, at very best require 2-3 hp.  For the electric vehicle project in which I was immersed (kickiing and screaming), you could cruse at road speed (50-55 MPH) at 9 KW.  Since 1 hp = ~0.746 KW, air conditioning put a serious dent in our energy efficiency. 

How are our roads paid for?  My state has something called, loosely, a road tax.  Then there is a Federal road tax.  To my knowledge, no one in our overweaning Federal Bureaurcracy has applied a tax to personal electrical use yet. 

And there is the issue of leaving town.  The infrastructure for gas station fuel delivery has been developing for over a century.  There is no reason that 220 volt infrastructure cannot develop rapidly but it does have to be developed. 

Given those realities. what do I vote for longer term?  Nuclear power is clean and these days, nearly portable.  One reference claims 82 nuclear ships in the US Navy currently on active duty and hundreds worldwide.  Security required?  Yes .


Fri, 11/19/2010 - 09:40 | 740713 JohnF
JohnF's picture


There is no infrastructure, no network of charging stations, no ability to swap batteries or fast-charge, all of these make wide-spread use of electric cars a pipe dream at best.


Effective charging requires 350v, 3-phase power for which there is virtually no infrastructure. Charging batteries takes hours at best, not minutes, and if you need to take longer journeys/haul freight/keep cool or warm, driving electric means not getting to where you want to, needing signficantly more vehicles (because you can't scale from a 1-ton payload to a 10-ton payload efficiently, meaning that in order to transport 10 tons, you need more vehicles do deliver the same amount of freight), and effectively living without heating or cooling whilst driving.

Current best-estimate costs for a single charging station using 350v 3-phase power is, including modest cabling costs, in excess of $3k per station: you need one at work, one at home, and literally tens of thousands for infrastructure. Those costs alone make the system extremely costly just to get into place. How will you react when you're plugged in somewhere and somebody unplugs you because there aren't enough plugs around? How are you going to deal with different plug systems and the like (and yes, there is no normed system of plugs for electric vehicles!)?


If the amount of money spent trying to get a fully-electric vehicle out on to the roads was spent instead on advanced hybrids (wheel motors, coupled with extremely efficient, small diesel engines or small turbines to generate juice), you could reduce emissions faster and more efficiently without creating all of these problems. Political nonsense makes money available for stupid investments that won't work.


Pure electric cars are, at best, a small niche solution. They are not and, based on laws of physics and basic electricity, can never be a universal solution that is, at the same time, an economic solution.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 17:54 | 739161 ZackLo
ZackLo's picture

short term might look bright....

but, the united states won't see any of those jobs or "cough" profits....

Man those indians don't know what they are getting themselves into..the monopoly cartels are determined to ride the bailout coaster around the world...



Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:53 | 737756 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yea I just took a massive news and wiped my RedNeck Repugnicant and flushed.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:06 | 737794 alpha60
alpha60's picture

he didn't give a time frame by chance?

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:41 | 737921 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Welcome to the slave grid

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 13:36 | 738102 jimcg
jimcg's picture

Massive news!

Especially since the market for hybrid and/or electric cars is miniscule.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:46 | 737526 DollarDive
DollarDive's picture

Watching HFT of GM and Waiting for silver to be :)

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:48 | 737534 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yes Im waiting for another couple of cases of .308 ammo delivery today too. Love those metals purchases.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:50 | 737545 HellFish
HellFish's picture

Gold Silver Lead Copper Brass and cold Steel

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:23 | 737655 Vergeltung
Vergeltung's picture

heh heh. same here man, 'cept mine was 300 rounds of 7.62x39 to feed my ComBloc goodness.  :)

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 13:30 | 738090 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Couple of nights ago, I just started reading brand new book The Gun, (C. J. Chivers), a history of the AK-47 and automatic infantry weapons in general.  It is over 400 pages long.  I have just met Mr. Maxim, having met Mr. Gatling earlier.

7.62x39 bitchez!

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:25 | 737854 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

You should look at buying reloading equipment.  Presses, dies, tumblers, scales, components, etc.  That equipment will be worth more than it's weight in gold if/when the SHTF.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:43 | 737926 Strider52
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I'm taking delivery of my S&W 9 MM next week. This I can add to my .25 with 2 extra clips, and the 'non-lethal' CO2-powered BB pistol, also with 2 loaded extra clips.

 "Don't you worry, little lady, I'll fix their wagon." Actually, I don't think John Wayne ever said this, it just sounded good, and got attibuted to him.  

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 15:16 | 738466 minus dog
minus dog's picture

A BB pistol is not a weapon... not even a "less-lethal" or "non-lethal" weapon.   If you introduce anything into a fight that looks like a gun, then you just started a gunfight.   With a BB pistol.

Think about that.

If you don't need to punch 9mm holes in them, then you usually don't need to be doing anything other than leaving in the first place.


Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:48 | 737532 goldmiddelfinger
goldmiddelfinger's picture


Now back to our coverage of the royal wedding




Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:58 | 737565 Arius
Arius's picture


Middleton seems a great person - dont want to break your free lunch at taxpayers expense though...go back to your GM..

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:40 | 737716 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

And dont forget sudden euphoria that Ireland is just as bankrupt as before, but might soon be even more bankrupt.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 19:07 | 739388 StychoKiller
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More loans (from who, precisely, is never explained!) will solve ALL of Ireland's woes (NOT!)

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:48 | 737533 TheGreatPonzi
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Obama and Bernanke are behind their computers, carefully watching it. I have the feeling the Dow will close green today. A red color would spoil today's government-sponsored show.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:04 | 737588 ZackAttack
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Proper market enthusiasm must be instilled in order for The People's Republic of California to place its bonds tomorrow.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:40 | 737903 Buzz Fuzzel
Buzz Fuzzel's picture

In a few days this deal will look like a new version of Grand Theft Auto.  Be interesting to see who got filled on the IPO along with connections and political views of same.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:48 | 737536 ZeroPower
ZeroPower's picture

No shit - all the smart money is slowly dumping their shares in small blocks (thank you HFT:)) and the retail dipshits are picking up these shares hoping to be saved from their ass-rapeage of the past 3 years.

Go figure.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:06 | 737596 AccreditedEYE
AccreditedEYE's picture

Indeed. What was their biggest asset? Loss carry forwards? Who the hell needs 'em in an environment where they can be synthetically created. This isn't the 80's..

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:04 | 737787 ZeroPower
ZeroPower's picture

Ya, might as well have been tax credits..

If only you could see the gimmicks they played on their 'sales' for their latest quarter.

Average days in inv on a dealer's lot was ~60 days til last March/April. Since October, its been about 80-85 days. Because any sell to any dealer (private, or GM owned) is still counted as a sale for the parent company.

Earnings Mgmt FTW

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 16:51 | 738870 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

Stuffing the channel eh?  Plenty of stuffing to go round for Thanksgiving.  I sold my food mfg company to a fortune 200 and witnessed plenty of channel stuffing.   A viscious cycle that will always catch up to you.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:07 | 737600 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

Tulip mania?  After the way GM treated its bond and shareholders this is indeed a sad day.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:45 | 737736 slyhill
slyhill's picture

+1 :(

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:49 | 737537 newstreet
newstreet's picture

How long did it take Ford Motor to again trade it's IPO price?

How long???????????????????

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:28 | 737867 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture


$64.50 closed its first day trading January 18, 1956


Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:49 | 737540 Cortez
Cortez's picture

GM ready to break lows of day.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:50 | 737541 spongeBOB
spongeBOB's picture

GM just went negative.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:05 | 737591 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

No.  It is up 2.25.  TBTF.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:05 | 737594 Crispy
Crispy's picture

incorrect -33 issue price...34.65 LOD as of 10:05:34

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:36 | 737701 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

Well, all included, -33 seems the real equity value.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:50 | 737544 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

GM will tank sooner then I initially thought, won't take 5 Business Days, just 2-3, tops!

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:50 | 737546 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

100 million shares already

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:52 | 737548 Bill Lumbergh
Bill Lumbergh's picture

Watching this issue trade is akin to watching alligators tag teaming their prey for fresh meat.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:52 | 737550 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Autozone still in the "perfect boner" mode.....

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 10:59 | 737570 unununium
unununium's picture

I'll die before I cover my AZO short.  What a colossal vapor turd.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:03 | 737582 packman
packman's picture

Not sure they do debtor's executions anymore.

(except in China)


Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:00 | 737773 unununium
unununium's picture

It would be one thing if book value were positive, or increasing.

AZO is no AAPL.  It will be executed eventually.

Thu, 11/18/2010 - 12:31 | 737884 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

You need to get into the Zone.

The Autozone.

So you can see some intersting types, although they do usually have what I'm looking for. Too bad there's a PepBoys 10 minutes closer to my house.

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