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Gold To $10,000?
From deflationist extraordinaire David Rosenberg:
GOLD HEADING TO $10,000 AN OUNCE?
Peter Schiff thinks that is a real possibility — see page 45 of the current BusinessWeek. There is no doubt that when benchmarked against the CPI, money supply and GDP, gold can easily double from here. Demand is always difficult to forecast, especially for jewellery, but we do know that central banks have very deep pockets and bought more gold last year (425 tons) than at any other time since 1964.
The supply backdrop is also highly conducive to a sustained bull market. Mined production is no higher now than it was a decade ago and has fallen outright in 5 of the past 8 years. And, we know what the marginal cost curve is doing because there is so little cheap supply left in the ground that gold companies now have to drill as much as 2.3 miles to get to the yellow metal in South Africa (and all Bernanke has to do is press a button).
And a gold anecdote from a Rosie reader:
GOLD SAVES LIVES!
The letter below comes Matthew, a subscriber to our research, pertaining to our biblical bullion comment yesterday. I thought his email was worth a reprint:
“David, Interesting gold citation from the Bible. In 1904, my grandfather was conscripted by the czar to fight for Russia in its war with Japan. He escaped from the Ukraine and made his way to a port where the captain of a freighter to NY refused to accept the small amount of fiat currency he was offered. But he let my grandfather board in exchange for a few gold coins — although the few coins would sell for much less than the asking price for passage in local fiat. That captain knew all one needs to know about commodity currency.
Warm regards, Matthew”
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You cannot back the levels of growth that the world needs with a limited and finite resource!
That's why they scrapped the gold standard years before I was born!
That's like, old school, dog. Evolve or die.
Oops, your Keynesian indoctrination is showing!
It is not the quantity of money that matters, it is its quality. Gold is and always has been the highest quality money available to man. Fiat currency is just a ponzi scheme forced on the peasants as a hidden means of taxation and eventually confiscation. It is nothing but a monetary perversion.
Funny how gold and silver never needed legal tender laws --- the coercion of the State --- to force their circulation as money; only fiat pseudo-money requires that.
Oh, and by the way, the gold standard was scrapped because its integrity and inherent limitations on monetary issuance did not fit into the big-spending, big-government plans of the statist elites of the time. The subversion of sound money is always the first step on the road to tyranny.
Dude...we do NOT have FIAT currency, ok?
None of you who believe that are right in any way, shape or form!
We have a currency backed by DEBT. In other words, the currency is backed by claims against the future which include compound interest.
Therefore, for our money to have par value, the future must present at least GROWTH by the prevailing rate of interest.
Guess what? It no longer does.
"That's like, old school, dog. Evolve or die"
That's like, old school, dog. Revolve till you die.
There fixed.
You dont think gold and silver could sustain 2% growth ? Guess what ? It can.
Horseshit!
Gold production is in IRREVOCABLE supply decline since 2000. If you plot a curve of supply you will see it INEXORABLY declining. And the best part is it cannot be resurrected.
Sure, there will be bumps along the way where you eke out a YoY increase. But a smoothed moving average will show a continuous decrease in production rates. Just like oil now.
You cannot back paper that you expect to grow in supply with things that are going to decrease. This is precisely WHY the future is INFLATION despite DEFLATION in broad money!
The Douchingites and the inflationists are BOTH WRONG. Credit IS deflating to reflect the point of recognition that the future is one of LESS, not growth.
But at the same time, existing money levies a compound interest REQUIREMENT onto itself via its very existence. This necessitates monetization, because there will not be the production necessary to back the debt!
Debt/GDP is all that matters really in a creditmoney system. But, world aggregate GDP, real production, is going to fall, because a necessary input to ALL things, energy supply, is presently in real decline as measured by EROI and in nominal supply decline as measured by C&C or all-liquids production metrics.
I don't see how anyone can believe we can have more people doing more things if we don't have more energy because energy is what DOES the doing! Jevon's Paradox stands at the ready to bitchslap any efficiency Polyannas, too.
Mother Nature bats last and she has plate discipline and lightspeed hands through the strikezone.
I am not one of the "gold to da moon" folks.
However your "not enough" argument is piffle. A bill can be easily made that contains a strip of gold of a set weight. Eliminating the legal tender laws is the first step. Denominating the bills by content reather than dollars is the second step.
It is easy to make a strip of gold weighing 1/1000 ounce, or whatever, that can be inserted into a bill that circulates just like the bills of credit of now.
Getting rid of a political definition of the money woul then have your favored FED notes circulating with bills denoninated in gold weight. Free choice for those that want hard money or undefined money derivatives.
All of this is too simple.
That's how they used to be; then that strip became the strip of plastic you can see today.
Wow...Johnny Bravo takes down and armbars the correct!
Know what, JB, you can't fucking back the levels of growth the world "needs" with the freakin amount of OIL WE CAN SUPPLY.
The world cannot keep growing so long as aggregate net energy input is falling!
You stumbled into the REAL PROBLEM. Debt can NO LONGER back currency as the future presents an aggregate INability to repay in growth.
At this point, real production MUST back paper or else paper based upon debt will CONTINUE to be discounted because the future is one of contraction, not growth.
No worries - in the mean time Al Gore will have invented the moto-continuum engine (made out of Fed printer's parts, what else) thus saving the World (again) and will therefore institute the uncap & trade tax, where you'll be taxed for the energy you won't consume. End of problems, the Universe is expanding again.
akak,
sorry had errands to run, impossible from a LOGICAL point of view......
You think they are going to allow Gold to be valued at $50k+?, I do not...unless they confiscated all they can find,individuals won't be touching it.
Personally I think the reason for the taking us OFF the std, was because by LAW, Gld and Slvr are certain wts.And they wanted to EXPAND the currency supplies..........( by the Const definition, the Potus had no choice)...............either way, HE broke the LAW.
Change the Constitution,valuations for dollars, and then there is no argument.
Novice argument.
Its simply a matter of price per oz.
M1 money supply = 5x above ground gold. (Priced at current per ounce cost)
Want a gold backed currency?
Simply increase the price per ounce 5X to approx $6,000/oz.
Then every dollar is backed by gold.
What will 1-2% backing do? - Nothing.
What about Global Currency?.
What about M2-M3?.Hell of a lot more than $6k per oz.
You're confusing monetary growth with actual growth. Going from a billion dollars in the world to a trillion is not growth, nor is it necessary for growth. Even if we never mine another ounce of gold again, we can grow the economy 10x as big and your gold will simply buy 10x as much.
Milk going from $3 to $2 to $0.75 would not be a crisis if those amounts of money bought proportionally more of everything else. At one time it cost a nickel, but that nickel bought about a milk-gallon's worth of everything else too. It doesn't matter.
The difference is that people would know their money was stable (or even appreciating), so you'd have to offer them value to borrow it. That's a much better alternative than them having to dump it on any "investment" or loan they can find, because they know next year it won't buy anything.
dos head zit or is it zap
plenty of gold silver to back the fiat or bills of exchange
its a matter of price ,, are you attending community college with Johhny zit head bravo..
DoChenRollingBearing
take care yes gold will,, but in the planning stage at this instant ,, according to jim willie come june 2011 a gold back currency is aimed at the fraudulent and fraud laced dollar.
JB is a misplaced zitkid in the presence of talented and experienced adults
Why don't you set about informing the FED of this notion. Make a few calls, maybe write a letter to your congressperson -- I figure that then we'll be back on a gold standard by end of the week (OR SOONER)...
</sarcasm>
A ralley led by fear will be far stonger than one led by greed. - James Dines.
I'm going to hold out for a detailed explanation of his forecast methodology. There is also the potential for geopolitical blowback vis-a-vis the law of unintended consequences. Just as IMF structural adjustment programs often failed to produce prosperity because of their impact on political stability and regime continuity, any price target forecast for spot gold to such a high level (within a short period of time) must include some attempt to analyze the coordinated reaction of the Fed, the major bullion banks, and of course world governments. In other words, if a run-up to gold is accompanied by a collapse in confidence in fiat currencies, capital controls, targeted taxation and even outright confiscation are all likely to occur. Public campaigns will designate the sale of local currency for physical gold as unpatriotic; offshore holdings of gold reserves by private citizens will warrant harrassment and IRS auditing.
Here is Marc Faber mentioning many times "unintended consequences":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0sS6a9RW2E
sweet link dude. thanks!
Irrelevant in the end.
Why? Because the banks CANNOT control reality with their bullshit interest rates and credit.
They CANNOT lend at any rate cheap enough to cause Cantarell's production to come back or for Helium production to rise. Why? Because these things are physically impossible now. Gold entered production supply decline in 2000...that's THAT. Mother Nature BATS LAST and she goes yard like it's a habit.
The real is reasserting itself.
please .. lets see gold break 1500,,
willie has changed his target from 5000 to 7000,
sinclair called for 1650 6 years ago ,, now says we go way beyond that ,,
a;f fields projects 7000
armstrong sees 5000
the creepy rolls hyperventilate as they make some noise about 100000 gold
time will tell,,
when the piper comes a calling ,, we shall see who is naked as a bluebird sans feathers
Sadly, no matter how HIGH it went, you will be the loser........
It will be conficated, or taxed to the point you'll be lucky to get your original purchasing power back for it.
Black Mkt, will be only way you could make any real profit.
Black market? Sounds great. No income tax, no paper trail.
All markets should be 'black markets'.
+1
Citizens increasingly hiding transactions positively correlates with gov't corruption.
You can give it away, hint, hint...
It will be confiscated, or taxed to the point you'll be lucky to get your original purchasing power back for it.
take my chances on that ,, you will be reamed quarteredand skinned alive . so what do you have to look forward to , Cretan in a brain of mush
Then I guess everyone becomes a criminal, eh?
Bc last I heard you could still score blow despite it bein a felony to sell it.
When central banks can digitize unlimited dollars to by increasingly precious metals, then gold will go to a quaquillion dollars an ounce.
-Bankers own the earth; take it away from them, but leave them with the power to create credit, and with the stroke of a pen they will create enough money to buy it back again -Josiah Stamp
-Silver has become too valuable to use as money-President Lyndon Johnson
-If U.S. money, $13 trillion in M3, were backed by "U.S. gold", there would be over $50,977 dollars for every one ounce of gold-Hommel
-History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance. -James Madison
The refusal of King George 3 to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system, which freed the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, was probably the prime cause of the American revolution-Ben Franklin
Allow me to issue and control a nation’s currency, and I care not who makes it’s laws Mayer Rothschild
Jim Rickards “No I am saying 10 times, I am saying gold will get to $5,000. It’s 8th grade math. Just look at the amount of gold and the amount of paper money, do the division, that’s where gold has to get to.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/jim-rickards-tells-cnbcs-joe-kernen-gol...
That was his intermediate projection..He didnt give a long projection..
If gold were based on the amount of paper money it would have never been $255. I love people and their 8th grade math, he sets up a flawed way of figuring a price than says it's 8th grade math.
Golly, kinda like the exponential function.
Ya think Gordon Brown had anything to do with that when he dumped gold on the market to bail out the LBMA ?
The unmolested market bottom was closer to $500
M1 money supply is 5 times above ground gold.
Want a gold backed currency?
Incease the price/oz of gold 5X = $6,000/oz.
Gold 10000? LOL..loaf of bread to $10
That was my thought.
Who cares what the price is, it is the buying power. I would rather have a $20 bill in 1920 than now. However, the gold coin I hold buys the same amount as it did then.
I believe that we will have a point where we far overshoot (that is when I will start digging out my stash), but in the long term, it is a wealth preservation item with no care of the fiat value.
Concur. Gold in my mind may as well be platinum or anything else. Something you can walk with to somewhere else and exchange for local paper/goods/services.
Nothing magical or special about it at all.
Platinum..., the Bearing starts panting...
right now to back all the paper in washington .. gold would be 36,000,, even a partial would give us 10,000 or so
whats with this zillion dollars an oz. do your math
35,000 times the amout of gold the USA claims ,, equals the debt,,
Interesting article at Ed Harrison's "CreditWritedowns" blog. Chinese are starting to purchase gold as the faith in fiat currencies erode.
http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2010/05/is-gold-just-another-fiat-curren...
Great video. I've sent that out to dozens of people hoping to wake them up before the rest of the general public. Imagine a gold store in Europe or the U.S. or Japan with 10000 people a day buying gold! There'd be a mass panic.
Before it got to that point, better have yours sold..........and into something else, I know a guy that died , that had 200oz, @ $850.00.................then we all know what happened after that.
So is Russia, as we know, the Reds likely(100%) have been buying any/all they can get while talking out their butt's....which they are VERY prone to do.
A Commie, is always a Commie.Just like you never show other players your cards..................you think they are?.
It will be a golden age. Those who have it will wear gold neck rings, gold amulets and have gold-dusted cheekbones. They will be the new elite, the new order, "New Man".
And they'll also be able to buy bread
Caviar,
Bro, your already there..............it's called Rapper bling.
I'm curious what the value of gold would be when compared to the near quadrillion dollar derivatives market.
Once again, Rosie is out to lunch! The man is smart, writes well, but his calls are awful, just awful! And his economic analysis is very superficial.
Stop looking in the mirror, Leo. And quit playing with your Hellenic Bonds, or you will go blind.
Leo never plays with his Hellenic Bond --- don't you know that when it comes to that he is always short, and never long? His wife was complaining to me in bed just last week about that very thing about Leo.
C'mon guys, Leo may not think the same we do, but is another ZH treasure. Lighten up!
That's one treasure that I would prefer to see locked away safely in a vault somewhere.
I think "Leo" just plays the role here that Jon Nadler does over on Kitco --- purposely posting ridiculously inflammatory and antagonistic material just to generate debate and site hits. His pollyannish, "blue skies and lollipops" drivel simply cannot be taken seriously at face value.
Gold is worth thousands of trillions of dollars... Zim dollars. My point is, when one bases the price of gold via a currency, it brings to question the buying power (value) of said currency. Look at gold as valued in various major currencies in just the past year time line at:
Choose '1 year' at top bar.
Up 24% in USD
Up 41% Pound Sterling
Up 43% in Euro
etc
www.kitco.com/gold_currency/charts.htm
PS: the 5 and 10 year should wake up the disbelievers.
To Infinity - and beyond!
But seriously, folks. I'll believe gold $10k sometime after I see gold $6k. For now I can readily imagine $2k within a year or two, but the epic collapse that people (me included) were expecting to play out like a disaster movie is instead moving about the speed of molasses in July in Antarctica.
Hmm. Ya it's like when the support beams are blown out of the house and you got 12 guys inside holding the roof up yelling at everybody walking by to help. If they can get enough people to help the roof will stand for some time. But it's going down.
When the state crisis hits this month bernanke will throw up a lung.
Q: What did James Bond's Q Branch Briefcase contain?
A: Dagger, .25 caliber AR-7 folding rifle, 20 rounds ammo, tear gas container and 50 Gold Sovereigns
Ultimate self-preservation kit for survival in hostile territory.
His Aston Martin Silver Birch DB5s is back on the auction block if you need a hasty get away.
RAF pilots in WW2 were given one - and told to identify as english, as no one knew about british (as no one does).
Someone help me out with the PHYS. I'm looking at this prospectus, and doesn't look too bad until you get down to page 13-15. The Trust, nor the MINT, is responsible for nothing. No losses, no lost gold, no damages, not responsible for your delivery if you redeem in bullion, no insurance. WTF kind of Trust is thing? Who let this thing trade on the stock exchanges?
They even go on to say in an earlier page that if Gold was to just sit at a certain level and not change value significantly higher or if Gold drops, the operating expenses and fees will eat up the NAV, since they will have to sell gold to cover it. Also, once you recieve your Gold bullion if you redeem the $450,000 worth(LOL) minimum redemption, your gold is no longer deemed London Good Delivery status, so they could send you Tungsten laced, and there is nothing you could do about it.
I understand the method is to hold and hoard this gold for appreciation. But, the accountability and legal recourse is out the window here. Am I missing something?
Come on, Rosie, you can't straddle the fence. Pick a side:
Deflationist = Gold $800-900?
Inflationist = Gold $3,000?
Hyper-Inflationist = Gold $10,000
Deflationist: $3,000
Inflationist: $10,000
Hyper-inflationist: $100,000
The point is that rampant deflation, economic contraction and a sharp contraction in tax receipts leads to money printing by sovereigns to pay their debt, which leads to currency collapse, which leads to gold.
Jimmy---
Loved the bow. You're right, but to a point. The CBs can't control the world unless they control the money. And they can't control the money unless they control gold. While I hold a lot of it and expect its price to continue rising against all major currencies I don't see it getting to $10k let alone $50k. Not unless there's confiscation, nationalization of the mines, and a re-pricing circa 1933 beforehand.
Rosenberg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz7m3UgGIo8&feature=youtube_gdata
"But he let my grandfather board in exchange for a few gold coins"
Unfortunately there is not going to be anywhere to run to this time. Someone is going to have to go, and ain't just going to be European and Asians this time.
I expect gold to have wild swings along with most supposed asset classes until the credit market completely collapses. Eventually production will go down to virtually zero in comparsion to today, eventually you will get less and less in exchange until the max. bottom.
There will be millions and millions with gold starving to death. They cooked the gold bearing Jews the same as the onbearing gold Jews last time.
When the time comes that you need to pay vig to a Russian oligarch, a Saudi Sheik or a Chinese party boy, payment will be expected in Gold.
The Chinese army is there to keep their own people in line. You think it's going to be bad here you wait till those Chinese start up, those chinese tanks were built to be used against their own people.
Credit makes the world you live in go around, not gold.
Credit? You mean an IOU for paper? Which is an IOU for gold?? You think when people own finite essential resources that they'll accept paper ? LOL
Never said any such thing. No credit = production will collapse, which means people will starve eventually chaos and people will be hacking at one another.
You think all those factories are going to run on gold you are in for a rude awakening, you ran out of gold to support the system a very long time ago.
Billions will have to go even though 99.99% of all the gold ever mined is still around, you can double it and it would still not matter, you could times by 10 and it still wouldn't matter. Billions will be liquidated, wake me up in a few generations.
This is absolutely the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.
Production exists WITHOUT CREDIT.
Credit can be manufactured at WILL. The Real Bills system ran for centuries on the back of it.
"Production exists WITHOUT CREDIT."
Never said any such thing. Production does exist without credit, but the amount production would only be tiny fraction without it. You do know credit is pulling supply and demand from the future?
Probably not. Go to Africa and let me know how life is without credit.:)
Most of what you see and live in is a function of the credit system, let me see you think all those skyscrapers would get built without credit? Hahahahah.
"Credit can be manufactured at WILL."
Credit is fiction, yet humans pretend it exists to fuels their wants. Eventually the amount new credit is not enough to support the prior, system collapses. Sorry, you can attempt rewrite history but it's not going to change it. Humans than try to give substance to "credit" by making it an obligation, see your Notes or contract.
I'm sorry Mako, but your predictions of Armageddon and Mad Max in a world with diminished credit is just as much wild fearmongering and outright bullshit as the threats of a global meltdown of civilization by Wall Street was in October of 2008. You put VASTLY too much credit in credit! We had an almost equally complex, interconnected worldwide economy in 1900 with vastly LESS credit in the mix than today, and could function just as well or better today without it. This maniacal and exaggerated emphasis on credit is just a reflection of the immature human desire to eat dessert before dinner at every meal. It is the accumulation of capital, NOT credit, that fundamentally makes economic growth and progress possible.
You are just falling for the propaganda of the bankers by worshipping DEBT ---- not "credit" --- as you do. Wake up and learn something, instead of endlessly repeating the same implicitly pro-establishment bullshit.
I have no idea where you got the idea I worship DEBT, you definitely are not reading anything I wrote.
What is funny is someone telling me to learn something but he is unable to read. Hmm.
Not once did I say what you said I said, if you think I am pro-establishment you definitely have a reading problem.
I am only telling you the result of your actions, you have choice, if you choose this choice mass liquidation.
It's not anymore a "predictions" than saying the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow, you use the equation this will be end result.
The gold won't run out, the goods and services will simply be revalued. It's pretty simple.
Yeah, because you were never able to supply the needed gold to support the system, sorry rewriting history and Math is going to fail.
Let me see the bank run during 1929, what exactly happen, you claim they didn't run out of gold, well, I think quite a few million people that showed up at the bank and they closed the bank would disagree with you.
You are talking about problems with fractional reserve banking, not problems with gold.
pure bullshitsky
the gold standard set a price for gold ,, and the printing presses could not print more . gold was recalled ,, 2 people and a few dipshits took their gold in ,, the gold was then valued at 33 percent higher .. more fiat was printed '
thus the senile argument that their is not enough gold ,, just raise the price .
we live in land of stupid . populated by little what ifs..
You dumb fuck !
I will gladly lend out my gold at interest.
hahaha, Loyd, Jamie and Paulson will be starving to death. You do not know how a market works. As the credit market collapses, the gold market rises. Nothing goes up or down in a strait line.
Gold is freedom and liberty, no matter whatever ist you are
The guys that owns chickenwire will probably disagree, the guy that who just picked his crop would probably disagree with both of you.
Shit, I'll be happy@ 2000. Don't see it though, unless Kim Jung and the Hebs start play nuclear ping pong.
If gold sky rockets to that level, I would expect goverments to create some sort of additional taxing system. IE, only able to sell via certified govt approved dealers and mandating 50% tax during the transaction. Or, some other high tax amount. (Its for the good of the people ya know)
Any fool can project the price of gold. What they cannot do is tell you what month and year their projected price will hit. Projecting the price of gold is nonsense.
Purchasing and holding gold makes sense.
Flash New York: Uber-Swank downtown club first to charge admission in gold. All others need not apply. If you have to ask the price in dollars, you can't afford it.
in 1980 gold got up to $843, which was obviously a blow off top. The Fed came in hammered the price down and kept it down for years after that. Corrected for inflation (CPI), that's about $2500. However, corrected for GDP, or the increase in money supply, it's closer to $5,000.
Or if you assume gold is a kind of proto-money, a proxy for all other assets, the total value of the world's assets is somewhere around $300T (hard number to find), and there are 160,000 metric tons of gold, that corresponds to $58,300/oz. Only at those prices could we have world wide gold backed currencies that create a level liquidity equal to our assets (approximately the correct amount of money). In a sound money system, there must be $200,000 laying around to loan the buyer of a house who obviously doesn't have it. That is there must be enough money to buy and sell assets. Actually, we don't need quite that much money, so that would be an upper limit on the amount of liquidity backed by gold.
Not saying any of this will ever happen, but these are good rules of thumb for knowing how high gold can go.
BTW: the only reason we still need gold, is because people can't handle fiat money. Human nature is still fallible enough that we cannot, as a large group, handle the responsibility. It only takes one greedy idiot to blow it for the rest of us. We desperately need a cap on the amount of money that can get created. Ironically, even paper money has a limit because you actually have to print the stuff. Today all you have to do to create $1T is twiddle some bits on a disk drive. That's just too tempting.
Sorry fellow gold believers, but Karl "I'm Calmer than You Are" Denninger begs to differ.
Here's his rebuttal to the spanking he received in Gordon_Gekko's recent manifesto:
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/2361-Listen-To-The-Hucksters,-Lose-Your-Ass.html
Denninger thinks gold is not money. No matter what argument he makes, he is coming from that flawed perspective. Gold is as deeply rooted in the banking system as any fiat currency. To say gold is a metal is to say dollars are just paper. Gold has intrinsic value as a precious metal. It also a deep web of loans, leases, promises to pay in kind within the banking system supporting it. If you think deflation in dollar terms was bad when the dollar credit bubble burst, just wait for all the gold loans to start getting called in.
The US has sold 1/2 of its gold, Canada has sold all of theirs, Britan has sold all of theirs. This all happened in the last 30 years while the US was on a massive money printing spree that sent the DOW soaring to 14,000. It is not a coincidence. Most of the gold reserves of the West were depleted in an attempt to keep gold at bay while inflating the money supply. It was a great party. It is over.
Bingo to you sir..
I tried to read it, honest. Unfortanately not only is he hard to listen to, he is hard to read. Other than logic, his writing lacks a certain, I don't know what. What is it that Marla's got? Panache; Karl lacks panache.
Denninger is profoundly ignorant of both monetary theory and monetary history, an ignorance which he has proudly and loudly displayed on numerous occasions, to his obvious non-embarassment. I have even read him go so far as to state that ALL physical and financial assets are money! Anyone with such simplistic and incorrect views regarding money would do well to STFU when it comes to the topic of gold.
Ben Davies from Hinde Capital says there's no upper cap for gold. He mentioned a $36,000 target. Check out ZH post on May 14 re an interestingly named report.
For those who understand (swiss)german; interesting interview with Marc Faber from swiss tv. Best part: he has his physical stuff in a swiss safe deposit box and he fears its going to be expropriated by the US (and afterwards revalued @ $10k), so he is thinking about moving it to HK or mainland china.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2o8EijwzPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTtBqumQk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs-Hc-nDxsE
You guys crack me up. Gold is the ultimate Ponzi scheme. Just as with Dutch tulips, it's only worth anything as long as there's a greater sucker out there.
As for central banks currently buying gold, historically they have been buyers/sellers at market tops/bottoms. Gold will see $500 long before it sees $2000, if ever.
Good luck with that, limey.
Not that it has any relevance, but I'm from Chicago, even though I've been in the UK for several years.
You're right. The "limey" crack was inappropriate. My apologies.
You might consider shorting the pound while you're there, however.
if you don't want to be called a limey, the easiest means might be to NOT include 'london dude' in your screen name.
just a thought.
ps: i'm not *reallllly* a goldfish, either
So you think that IOUs for paper IOUs is not a Ponzi?? Just wait till the action really gets started. Trying to exchange paper IOUs for crucial, strategic and finite resources will get you laughed at.
See, people already know that the trick to the paper currency Ponzi is not borrowing from Peter to pay Paul like a classic Ponzi. No. All you do is just make ever more paper to pay debts back with. Until it blows.
The ponzi scheme existed whether it's gold or paper based. If you don't think gold is part of the scheme you are in for a rude awakening.
The only way systemic Ponzi can be supported is by the government. That's why the Fed was created.
Free markets destroy Ponzis before they become systemic.
That's why the government (and 'big banks') hates free markets.
Hey, at least "paper currencies" are highly liquid and you can convert them into anything you want at any time. Gold bullion is just a mostly useless substance which is also relatively illiquid. If/when this ultimate Ponzi collapses, and when it does it will happen quickly, it'll be fun watching people/funds desperately trying to convert it into cash or use it for buying anything that has real value, like a house, land, a car, etc.
Disclaimer: I don't trade Gold, or any precious metals. I just watch it because of its relative psychological influence on other asset classes and markets, and frankly find the latest bout of people's obsession with gold extremely funny.
It does tend to have an influence on markets, right now its cut its ratio to the dow down to about 8 to 1 or so, you will see parity shortly..
Yes, spoken like a true paperbug, ignorant of history and monetary history. You simply cannot see beyond your warped and limited trader mentality and mindset. Holding gold is NOT about trading --- it is about preserving wealth in a collapsing financial and monetary system, a collapse that you are almost certainly too smug and inured to those systems to see or acknowledge.
Trader, you are utterly clueless, which you demonstrate in spades by declaring, against all evidence and history to the contrary, that gold is "illiquid", and also by stating that gold is a "ponzi", when you know damn well that it is the fictional paper and electronic "assets" that you trade for your non-productive and parasitical living that are the true Ponzis. But what is to be expected in the way of logic or reason from a person who has probably never contributed anything real or honestly productive to society in his life.
"Hey, at least "paper currencies" are highly liquid and you can convert them into anything you want at this time." - There, I fixed that for you......
Ur right...gold can be conjured into existence at will just like tulip bulbs.
I guess you missed the part where tulips could be reproduced endlessly, just like shares of internet stocks or houses. Gold is hard to reproduce. As such, there can never be a bubble in gold, but rather there can only be a loss of confidence in the dollar. In 1980, there was such a loss of confidence, followed by a regain of confidence thanks to a movement of interest rates toward and above the free market interest rate.
Paper is the ultimate Ponzi scheme, not gold. Gold is a tiny market that few are interested in for now, but it will become a large one of, if not the largest market out there as government paper collapses. The real ponzi in this was the thought that governments could continue to expand their debt levels forever. Gold just is. It exists. Something that simply exists can never be a ponzi scheme, but instead will outlast all the government schemes, and all the greatest monuments of man. Screw diamonds, gold is forever.
a dense pile of manure ,, walking around as if he were a pile of sand .. your mr brown nose ,, sold gold at the very low ,, 250 good call english ... 1000 bucks a oz down the crapper ..
+ 1000 bucks down the crapper, LOL
..
Awesome. Can I then buy it from you for 3 ounces of gold so I can then blow it out into the Atlantic ocean with coordinates set for the Bermuda Triangle!? <spazzed out here since this meant as a reply to 'If' 386648)
If gold in the near term (6-12mos)exceeds $3000 an ounce--well, I would estimate that the dollar is about to become so worthless that we are pretty much screwed. If you see this type of action--it is a sign that the bottom is finally falling out. $50000 dollar gold becomes a little meaningless. That said, it is a great idea to invest in gold/silver because the value of the metal has been a historical store of wealth. All of the poo-poo'ers are either full of dung--or they are so blind that they need their driver licences revoked.
"When 'genius' failed!"
Dudes, the world will be running on lean hogs...or wheat.
Buy some agriculture.
What good is gold if the new world order refuses to accept gold as a currency.
In fact, why is gold considered money at all? Why not copper or wood.
...or office paper - we have the largest producer of office paper in Europe. That would help us pay our bills.
Ben Davies, CEO of Hinde Capital:
Gold at $36,000 Not as Ridiculous as It Sounds?
On a related news,
Study: Marijuana Doesn't Affect Driving Performance
Ergo:
POT O' GOLD, BITCHES!!!!!!
Pot smokers dont go fast enough to have an effect on anything when they crash..They run into other cars in parking lots and crap like that..
I've been thoroughly testing this using driving sims with wheel and pedal controls and manual shifting. My best times tend to be my high times, but I must admit to possible bias since there is no double-blind element to my experiment.
G O L D, D E F L A T I O N I S T B I T C H E Z.
Gold is in every good survival kit. Period.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5qqfsQGYus
Gold will break 1000 before it breaks 2000.
Gold has already broken $1000. Where have you been?
They must have been talking about euros.
;-)
It has, already (14 May - 1002.40)
Why stop there? IMO, Schiff, like Rogers, have agendas possibly relating to their portfolios. As well as he may relate to the downtroden, I suspect his loyalty to dollars far outstrip those to people.
.
And your altruistic paper pushers and Ponzi pimps only have your best interests at heart, and are as pure as the driven snow.
Please go back to enjoying your festering hellhole that is metro Detroit.
Woodward cruisin and Jobbie Nooners all the way.
Long Whites metal detectors and panning equiptment..
As I see it, the difference between Gold and Fiat Money is that when TSHTF there will still be people with things they might want to trade, if so, the intrinsic value of gold will at least get your trade offer looked at while your piles of meaningless paper money will get you nothing.
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Gold will break 1000 before it breaks 2000.
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SO, buy some more at 1,000 and await 2,000 :)
As I see it, the difference between Gold and Fiat Money is that when TSHTF there will still be people with things they might want to trade, if so, the intrinsic value of gold will at least get your trade offer looked at while your piles of meaningless paper money will get you nothing.
It's a shiny metal, I'm happy to hold it as insurance but I doubt the useability in the case of all out panic. Humans will just rob and kill each other.
What's to say that my trade of iTampon won't be worth something to someone more than a shiny lump of useless metal. Even my 5l can of gasoline will be more use to trade.
BeerGoggles, certainly at the point of "all out panic", only life's bare essentials are important, but gold still can operate as money. I take it on trade for something you want and I don't need. Later I trade the gold for something I need. It's money at in its most simple form.
Why is there all this ridiculous focus on the possibility of using gold in a Mad Max world that is almost certainly NOT going to happen? Gold's value lies not so much in its potential for saving one in an emergency, but in storing and transferring one's wealth through that emergency, and to the recovery on the other side of it.
BeerGoggles, certainly at the point of "all out panic", only life's bare essentials are important, but gold still can operate as money. I take it on trade for something you want and I don't need. Later I trade the gold for something I need. It's money at in its most simple form.
I think the point is intrinsic value. WHat intrinsic value does a shiny metal really have? It's value lies in its history, which COULD change.
The intrisic value of food is a different matter. Food could very well be more tradeable than gold in an all out panic.
Food is perishable. Gold is not. After the year you spend underground in a bunker and need to buy something because you've run out of food and water either you'll be dead, sucking dick for food, or have some historically significant currency that is still recognized and readily accepted globally.
Oh come on, Dave's still got!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvbdpbZZm4s&feature=related
So I guess everyone agrees of the following:
So in a Mad Max world where it's all about survival, how much is an ounce of gold worth? Would you trade it for a weeks supply of food or gas? How about a fine mens suit, slippers and belt?
Either way, something has either gained value or lost it in comparison to gold. You wouldn't want the suit whilst starving but not going to spend 1OZ on 12 cans of baked beans. This is what confuses me about the entire argument for gold.
Again with this specious "Mad Max" scenario!
Let me repeat my post from above, because apparently it is necessary to dispel your anti-gold bleatings:
Why is there all this ridiculous focus on the possibility of using gold in a Mad Max world that is almost certainly NOT going to happen? Gold's value lies not so much in its potential for saving one in an emergency, but in storing and transferring one's wealth THROUGH that emergency, and to the recovery on the other side of it.
Oh so a guess I've missed some very vital components in my survival chest. Besides gold, which will preserve my wealth on the otherside, I also need to maintain some tradable commodities such as goats, chickens, needle and thread, bullets, whiskey, smokes.........just stop it OK.
You're an idiot.
Look back these past ten years. Nothing Mad Max about it, right? How did gold do? How did everything else do? Why?
If you don't know the answer, don't bother. Focus instead on mad max scenarios or the other extreme - goldilocks scenarios... your mind is incapable of understanding reality.
Yes and with enough Helium balloons, who cares for gravity? Just as I remarked in other posts, I expect gold to drop back to the $600-800 range by year end. This is based on my analysis. Until then, we are all just speculating. We can't all be right. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it but I'd expect the same from you guy's without the "ohh ohh I sold at the top" bullshit.
I will agree with your prediction when the entire western world has balanced budgets, strong gdp, a well cared for senior citizen population, and dimishing national debts.
Until then... it's QE until bust. The entire world wants to (orderly) devalue their currencies. And there is only one thing remaining that they can devalue against - gold. They can't devalue against eachother, so they will devalue against gold.
Take the 1 OZ gold coin and trade it for 10 one OZ silver coins. Then get your baked beans and all other "cheap" supplies for the month for one of those silvers. 10 months. Good luck.
Gold's value lies not so much in its potential for saving one in an emergency, but in storing and transferring one's wealth THROUGH that emergency, and to the recovery on the other side of it.
If you could cover why gold has intrinsic value then that would dispel most people's anti-gold stance. However, many anti-gold buffs are anti-gold just because of the scenario of mass world disorder (which may never happen) because food is likely to be more value than a lump of metal in those instances.
If there are still countries with no issues, then you can take your gold there and transfer your wealth but only if they value gold as something useful to them.
Many if not most of the "anti-gold buffs", as you call them, seem to me to make two major mistakes:
1) They are utterly ignorant of history, especially financial and most importantly monetary history, and simply do not appreciate the historical role of gold (and silver) as "the money of last resort", or its value in transferring savings through the collapse of a fiat currency regime and into the recovery period afterward. Most such "buffs" are Americans, as many Europeans, South Americans and Orientals have a much better grasp of history, and have at least secondhand accounts of parents, relatives or friends who preserved at least some of their wealth during wartime or financial upheaval by holding gold.
2) Many anti-gold buffs posit a false dichotomy in which either the world continues pretty much just as it is today, or else we get some wild, apocalyptic "Mad Max" world of roaming cannibalistic zombie hordes (who can instinctively sniff out gold too, by the way) as the only possible alternative --- Kitco's gold-hating, pro-establishment fiat defender Jon Nadler excels at this disingenuous line of argument. But this is ludicrous. There are an infinitude of MUCH more likely outcomes to the current situation than that ultimate extreme, scenarios in which there is indeed financial and monetary chaos, but in which civilization does NOT fall apart. In all such other, non-Mad Max worlds, it is simply logical to believe that gold will hold its value, because it has already done so through hundreds or thousands of such episodes throughout history already.
Fundamentally, though, I personally feel that it is the lack of any historical context in which to understand or perceive the value of gold that makes most of those who scoff at holding it do so. Almost all of them whom I have encountered have displayed such a historical ignorance, and seem to implicitly believe that the current fiat age in which we live, all 39 years of it, is not only "normal" but the only one possible, simply because it is the only one of which they have any knowledge.