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Gold To Skyrocket As Paulson Personally Invests $250 Million In New Gold Fund

Tyler Durden's picture


Developing story from the WSJ: John Paulson to make "big new bet on gold" and to personally invest $250 million in new gold fund on January 1.


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Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:06 | 134607 LoneStarHog
LoneStarHog's picture

This so-call investment better be in PHYSICAL gold and NOT the typical PAPER GOLD.  This fund had better hold ONLY PHYSICAL with a commitment to NEVER lease/loan.  He had also better make sure that SHORTING the funds shares are FORBIDDEN, as is the typical FRAUD of the present so-call PM funds.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:10 | 134616 spekulatn
spekulatn's picture

R U f'n serious here? Seriously.



Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:30 | 134846 LoneStarHog
LoneStarHog's picture

What part do you not understand?

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:31 | 134848 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

he is but you aren't

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:41 | 134642 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

He did change paper gold into physical one sometime ago.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:27 | 134740 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Yes, about six months ago he saw through GLD (read their 10-k, specifically pages 54 to 58). He was GLD's LARGEST shareholder at that time. He sold those shares and got physical gold instead. Smart man!

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:41 | 134643 lookma
lookma's picture

LoneStarHog will be sad:

John Paulson, who scored about $20 billion of profits for his hedge fund between 2007 and early 2009 wagering against the housing market and financial companies, is launching a fund dedicated to buying up shares of gold miners and other bullion-related investments, according to three investors.

Mr. Paulson spoke about the new fund, which will begin on January 1, at a meeting with his investors Tuesday in New York. The gold fund will invest in gold-related shares and gold derivatives and will aim to outperform gold prices.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:41 | 134644 mule65
mule65's picture

I read that he was using GLD ETF.  Bad mistake.  Not impressed.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:47 | 134655 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Nope, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the precious metals markets.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:05 | 134701 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I have a theory on this. We all know (right?) that the GLD ETF prospectus has very interesting language that doesn't make the ETF responsibly for even auditing the gold nor making sure the gold is even physically held, just that they are relying on assurances from various others that its there, trust me.

I have been waiting for the big guys to pile into paper gold. There could be various reasons, including making the GLD ETF "too big to fail" once the big boys get in, meaning that if it turns out there is less or no gold really held, it will get "bailed out" like the banks.

Or the big boys are using"other" money (cough cough Fed cough) to keep the illusion "it's real gold in the EFT" going longer. I've always felt the GLD ETF (and others like it) were created to allow easier shorting of gold for suppression reasons, not withstanding the recent highs.

People who point to the recent highs to supposedly "debunk" the idea that gold is suppressed don't consider where the gold price (IMHO) should be absent manipulation.

Just something to chew on.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:12 | 134711 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Hey CD.

Math is math.  If it wasn't for GLD and SLV, which re-direct interest in PM investing into hollow paper vehicles, the POG/POS would already be 1000% higher than they are now.  The ETFs are simply there to extend time on the fiat money scam.  Nothing more, nothing less.


Buy physical, damn it.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:56 | 134781 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I agree with you Chumbawamba, I hold nothing but physical PM's.

I was playing around with ideas to get a response to see what the ZH world is thinking. I do think the etf is an effort to keep the manipulation going, particularly after I spent a long winter evening in 2006 reading the prospectus, which I read again every time they update it. Lot's of "will" words but very few "shall" in there. Big world of difference between those two terms.

There is a lot of discussion on ZH about whether or not Gold is manipulated but not a lot of talk as to how.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 23:26 | 135459 lookma
lookma's picture

I do think the etf is an effort to keep the manipulation going

I think it is a key part of manipulation.  From FOFOA:

Why More Buying means Lower Prices! (in paper markets)

In the leveraged market of paper gold, the more buyers that show up, the lower the price will go. Here is how it works. Let us say that we want to play on the front lines of gold price discovery; the futures market. We believe fundamentally that the price of gold must rise, so we become buyers of future gold. But let's say that we only have $5,000 to play with. So we pay our $5,000 margin to gain control of a $100,000 contract for 100 ounces of gold. If gold goes up $50/ounce while we hold this contract for future delivery, we will make $50 x our 100 ounces, or $5,000. A $50 rise in gold only represents a 5% increase, but our profit was 100%! We doubled our $5,000 turning it into $10,000!

Here's the problem. We don't have enough money to pay $95,000 more for the physical gold. And the bullion banks KNOW this. They know that there is a 90% probability that we will not take delivery. So when we placed our bid for 100 ounces of gold, they simply issued a brand new paper contract, not backed by real gold! This is pure paper gold inflation. And the more contracts there are, the lower the value of each contract. The same way supplying more dollars makes the value of each dollar fall. It really is the same thing!

This is how a million new paper gold buyers, or ETF subscribers can actually make the price of gold FALL! All the fresh demand is met immediately with fresh supply, inflation in the paper gold market. This increases the supply that is visible to new bidders, lowering the value of each unit.

Only the buying of physical gold, taking it into your possession, puts upward pressure on the price. All other buying puts net downward pressure!

The last 20 year record of gold prices clearly shows a gradual shift from the total confidence in the paper contract market of the early 90's (contracts were "as good as gold"), to the massive inflation of the paper gold market in the late 90's (falling price), to the gradual shift from paper to physical of the last 8 years (rising price), starting from the top (the "giants") and trickling on down to you and me, J6P.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:34 | 134857 andyupnorth
andyupnorth's picture

I have expenses and bills to pay.  I need cash now.  So I buy GLD Options in order to make the fiat money necessary to buy things now and pay off debt now.  But I would NEVER buy and hold GLD.  I don't believe that it has any long term value/storage of wealth. 

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:20 | 134729 Daedal
Daedal's picture

Gordon Gekko posted a fascinating article on the GLD ETF. I believe similar postings were already featured here about the discrepancies in the SLV ETF. I used to hold both, but new information has come to light, man. Daedal abides.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:31 | 134747 Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

I am onboard with GG and Chumba. You gotta take posession the physical asset. Oh, and how IRONIC is it that John Paulson is taking advice from that fi dolla ho Alan Greenspan?

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:31 | 134849 Apocalypse Now
Apocalypse Now's picture

The GLD ETF came out shortly after the hushed news story regarding China finding tungsten gold bars (gold bars with a tungsten core).

If you read the prospectus, it clearly states the bars may not be up to london delivery standards - this fits a tungsten bar.

The ETF was most likely started to use those defect bars in some "productive" manner.

Go with physical and mining shares.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 16:45 | 134984 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The GLD ETF came out shortly after the Rothschild's withdrew from the LBMA.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 19:39 | 135238 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

At that time, one was wondering why Rothschild withdrew from the LBMA, even now, no answer. They traded gold market for a couple of centuries in Europe.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:09 | 134611 Unscarred
Unscarred's picture

Houston, we have liftoff...  Approaching gold $2,000 and beyond.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:09 | 134613 geopol
geopol's picture

Everybody!!!Get all the FRN's you can and immerse gold and silver,,, It's beginning to get crowded by the MSM types...Mining pulls are way down, supply could reach irreversible  drought very soon,,get in now..

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:13 | 134621 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

While I think it's best to not become iconoclastic about which forms of gold investment one should prefer, it does makes sense to consider the fact that only investment in gold and silver bullion is "off-grid" and the very purpose of bullion investment in a time of price and systemic and currency and policy chaos, is in fact to be off grid.

I'll guess that Australian and Canadian banks will do a big business in the next few years, taking in deposits and then offering gold and silver bullion storage off-site.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:57 | 134682 ghostfaceinvestah
ghostfaceinvestah's picture

Canadian banks are awesome, they will sell you gold bars over the counter at close to spot.  Love em.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:17 | 134723 RowdyRoddyPiper
RowdyRoddyPiper's picture

You are the first to ever say anything nice about these fucking parasites. The canadian banking system is an oligopoly that detests competition. The banks have bought all the trust companies, major brokerage firms and now what to sell insurance.

Bastards.  They do have nice dividends though...

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:05 | 134801 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I bought from Scotiabank recently. They took 6% over spot, and that includes the conversion from CAD to USD (they only sell gold in USD). Still hurts but I was expecting to pay more when I first had the idea to buy physical.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 10:58 | 135689 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Thats a pretty good deal esp with the fx.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:16 | 134627 Flyingtrader
Flyingtrader's picture

Captain of a sinking ship: "Ladies and Gentleman, there is no need to panic, the ship is fine. In fact there is evidence that our efforts at bailing are keeping us well above the waterline; we may even be rising.  Please do not read into the fact that I am currently sitting in a lifeboat with my water wings on.  This is merely a procedural thing and not necessarily indicative of impending disaster.  REMAIN CALM.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:35 | 134630 Guy Fawkes
Guy Fawkes's picture

I'll remain skeptical on this one. John Paulson is not the kind of person to announce his move BEFORE he makes it. Why would he be saying I'm buying $250M in PM's a month before? ... So he can pay $2K oz?

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:37 | 134634 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Why? If you are launching a new fund, it helps to state how big of a stake you intend to take yourself. Don't see why this is a mystery.


Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:37 | 134635 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Exactly... I find the announcment and the timing thereof dubious, to say the least.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:38 | 134637 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

He's humanitarian, wants the whole world to share in the riches.

R i g h t. And chickens have lips.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:46 | 134652 lookma
lookma's picture

Paulson & Co. already is a major holder of gold shares including AngloGold Ashanti Ltd. and Kinross Gold, doing most of its buying early this year. Mr. Paulson currently has more than 10% of his $30 billion or so under management in gold-related investments, according to his investors.

Mr. Paulson also owns billions of dollars of gold exchange-traded funds and forward contracts that he uses for gold-backed investor classes of his various funds. These gold investments have benefited from the recent surge in gold prices to nearly $1150 an ounce.


At Tuesday's investor meeting Mr. Paulson argued that the bull run was only beginning for gold; he said he was starting the new fund in part to give himself more personal exposure to gold. Mr. Paulson, who is estimated to be worth about $6 billion, said he would himself invest as much as $250 million in the new fund, according to an investor at the meeting.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 03:55 | 135570 FreddyInBangkok
FreddyInBangkok's picture

Paulson's absloutely right about that, only just beginning which is why I'm walking slowly, not running. Expect the gold cycle to run to 2014. If you're not in already wait for this rally to pull back a bit in the next few months. A dollar rally would be nice with a stock market crash. It'll come. TA types, take a look at the 10-2 yield curve compared to $XAU, $GOLD, $GOLD:$SILVER, $USD & $SPX long term (see '93 & '03). We should have a few more months of this then a pullback followed by a year or so sideways. Then a big push. Get positioned.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:36 | 134633 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

maybe he's just trying to hype up his fund...? i agree though, the announcement seems strange.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:40 | 134640 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

He likely already owns gold, mucho, at 600 and finds tripling his money in one year by SELLING into the rise not a bad year's work.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:41 | 134645 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I totally agree. Why in the world would he pre-announce this unless he was unloading as he speaks.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 18:44 | 135154 gator gatlin
gator gatlin's picture

Suppose, grasshopper, he is funding his $250MM investment with a previously acquired (at much lower basis) gold position and he is merely trying to leverage that by instigating more gold demand via the fund!

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:16 | 134717 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

He "pre-announced" that he would invest in his credit ops fund too, when that was launched. The fact that he discloses this to his clients is not strange or mystical in any way. He is required to do so by law as well. Enough with the conspiracy bullsh*t. Had he sent out a press release 6 months ago it would be a different story.


Thu, 11/19/2009 - 01:34 | 135525 delacroix
delacroix's picture

paulson will devise a way to use the fund investors money to profit, while insuring that if there are losses, they will be shouldered by the investors as well. if the fond is anything like an etf he doesn't have to hold physical gold. he can use the investor $ to speculate with. you know, pull a goldman.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:38 | 134638 Grand Supercycle
Grand Supercycle's picture


But what happens when the USD rallies and the DOW tanks ?


Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:43 | 134646 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

You sound like you have an idea when the Fed will raise interest rates.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:22 | 134734 bokapita
bokapita's picture

Short of nuclear war, the dollar will not rise unless interest rates rise. If so, the dollar will fall again pdq as the interest burden will mince the consumer and the Treasury. Gold does even better. When the Dow tanks, gold does even better.

The point to grasp is that gold is acting outside of the traditionally taught and accepted clever peoples framework. Gold is going higher because fundamental uncertainty has set in throughout society about the future value of paper any paper, not just currencies. Thus ideas of convertability, price, dolar-value become obsolete, just as diamonds and gold become obsolete to the person dying of thirst.

The gold price, therefore, reflects an atavistic certainty that the system is stuffed, it is being bought because people want some sort of an insurance policy for the future and nobody has thought of a better one. The higher the price goes, the less likely anyone is to sell the stuff because it confirms the opinion of imminent collapse is ever more widely shared.

Only if, not when, government finances and consumer finances return to sensible debt/deficit/expenditure ratios, will anyone rational sell their gold .

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:37 | 134757 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture


I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:30 | 134744 Assetman
Assetman's picture

And this is exactly where the Paulson announcement makes sense.

If you're going to announce to the world that you are commited to create a fund that will make $250mm in incremental investments in gold-realted entities sometime in the future (and importantly, not today), you expect Mr. Paulson anticipates an opportunity to accumulate gold at much lower prices.

The Fed doesn't need to raise interest rates to induce panic and start a "safety trade".  All they need to do is to execute The Plan.  That involves winding down existing loan facilities, completing MBS and Agency debt purchasing programs, and marginally withdrawing reserves from the cash hoarding banks.  They don't even need to remove reserves, as the risk premia from "no more buying junk" will bounce like Happy Fun Ball.

Once the Fed succeeds in scaring the masses witless (while helping Treasury folk in securing massive 30 year debt issuance), they can eventually return back to creating new programs to purchase even more worthless debt.

During that time, of course, both gold and the equity markets will be vulnerable-- and the DXY will gain strength much like the way it did between July 2008 and March 2009.

In other words, I think many investors are being set up by the same entities that engineered the equity rally to start with.  And right now, they are trying to stuff as many of us on the wrong side of these trades as is humanly possible.

I do realize the other side of the argument-- that the Fed is so blind and committed to printing at all costs, that they could care less about the dollar being cut in half.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:40 | 134763 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

You seem to believe that these guys can walk on water.  The reason gold is shooting higher nearly everyday is because sane people have figured out that these guys are in-sane.  The system can't be fixed.  It's irreperably broken.  Not only that, it's defunct.  Load it into the trailer and haul it to the junkyard.  Salvage what you can from it and start over.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:36 | 134861 Assetman
Assetman's picture

No Chumba... I agree exactly the opposite.  The Fed has went down a road of no return in this initial bailout-- and it has already proven to be the wrong road.  The only thing they can effectively do now is to buy time-- that is something that the political and financial elites need in a big way right now.

I'll put it another way-- I am a huge gold bug.  I bought a lot in Fall 2008 timeframe, when gold was < $800 an ounce, and most were buying their Treasury notes and praising "cash is king".  And I'll certainly be buying gold again. 

As with greed, though, fear is a very powerful thing-- and I think the Fed is moving toward scaring the investing world $h1tle$$ by playing chicken with the dollar and reversing its course as planned.  Ben Bernanke is nuts for doing this... the purpose in doing so is to eventually herd the masses into Treasuries where new issances are mounting big time for next year.  Someone has to finance this massive Federal deficit, and it will eventually be handed to the "greater fools".  It won't be me.  But it will be someone, and at really low coupon rates.

One other note-- I would listed to Chumba very carefully on how to purchase gold.  Going the ETF route is a big mistake, in my opinion, and having physical on hand should be part of the gameplan.  Storing some outside the boarder makes intuitive sense, but one must assume (a) the "contract" to deliver will be upheld; and (b) you have the ability to travel to the storage destination (i.e., London, Switzerland) if required.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:55 | 134783 _Biggs_
_Biggs_'s picture

I personally agree with the former scenario you laid out.  The tools are still in place for the Powers to agressively move the markets down, uninhibited.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:32 | 134851 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

That is the only explanation that makes any sense to me. Nobody trying to make money is pallet-sized loads is going to tell you what they are really doing. It's a chess game, after all. The Fed is not blind--the G20 figured this all out ahead of time. The big boys are doing exactly what they did with oil in '08.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 01:14 | 135516 JacksWastedLife
JacksWastedLife's picture

Yeah. Gold today is probably what oil was in '08.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 20:09 | 135276 Doc
Doc's picture

You are missing the point. The Fed HAS to cause inflation. That is the plan. A debtor's nightmare is a deflationary environment it raises the real cost of the debt burder.

The US owes so much money on every level, federal, state, municipal, corporate, personal it is absolutely ludicrous. There is no other choice but to inflate away.

However, Bernanke, Hank Paulson, Geitner, Obama etc. can't come out and say "oh and the plan is to cause a good 20% inflation in order to wipe out the real debt levels. Gold would go to 5K the next day, oil would trade at $500 a barrel.

So just like with every other political move out there that we've heard "there's WMD in Iraq", "Subprime is contained", "the financial system is strong", "change and hope" they claim a "strong dollar" policy is what they're looking for.

The Fed and the government sent out the message six months ago DON'T HOLD CASH, buy anything equities, commodities, houses, whatever, but DO NOT HOLD CASH. That is what 0% interest rates do. What's the difference between putting my money in gold versus giving it to some of the most bankrupt and badly run banks in the world such as BofA, Citigroup etc. so that I get less than 1% on a deposit?

The only questions that remain are when will we have inflation and how high will it be, not if.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 20:58 | 135342 Assetman
Assetman's picture

No Doc-- I get the point entirely.  But you are looking in the rear view mirror and not down the highway.

I will wholeheartedly agree with you that inflating the hell out of everything is the eventual end game.  But-- and this is very important-- there is still a significant need to FINANCE a mountain of new Treasury debt as we get into 2010 and beyond.  This is debt the Fed DOES NOT want to monetize.

The Fed has been endorsing this reflation theme up to now because: (a) the Fed had been the incremental buyer of Treasury debt up to now via QE; and (b) the dollar simply had room to fall.  We are not there yet, but we are approaching the point where those that have been investing in Treasuries are starting to lose faith.   That's why we are seeing gold over $1,150, and the DXY approaching important support levels.

The Fed knows, though, that the dollar can't unravel, because the Treasury needs to raise low coupon, longer duration debt-- BIG TIME.  They can't do that by continually inflating away, because capital will evenutally a different home.  No, the Fed will need "natural buyers" for Treasury debt next year-- and they will do so by engineering the mother of all safety trades.  Many investors will naturally gravitiate to Treasuries, both foreign and domestic (as they did last fall) to meet this unmet need.

Eventually, the Fed will get to its final objective, as you described.  If the Fed wanted to create inflation today, they could declare a bank holiday and devalue the dollar in half.  But they don't need to do that, nor would it be desireable. 

I'll admit I could be off the mark about this-- but it would mean the Fed/Treasury are dumber than a bag of nails if they continue to play the Dollar Chicken game.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 21:21 | 135370 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

your last three posts are something else 

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 21:37 | 135387 Doc
Doc's picture

"Eventually, the Fed will get to its final objective, as you described".

Rear-view mirror? Sounds like I'm looking ahead?

"I'll admit I could be off the mark about this-- but it would mean the Fed/Treasury are dumber than a bag of nails if they continue to play the Dollar Chicken game".

The Fed and the treasury are dumber than a bag of nails. Forget economics, forget philosophy, or morals. A CRISIS CAUSED BY EXCESSIVE SPENDING AND EXCESSIVE BORROWING CANNOT BE SOLVED BY BORROWING AND SPENDING MORE. Period.

Bernanke and Geitner have been wrong their whole lives, about EVERYTHING. Forrest Gump would do a better job than they have.

It drives me nuts hearing this "flight to safety" argument that when everything tanks the dollar goes up. We saw that ONCE during a liquidation phase, and all we saw was an electronic run on banks whereby anybody who had money invested abroad or in a bank reshuffled into treasuries. It happened once, but now it's assumed that it's some kind of law of physics that the dollar goes up when other things go down?

You do realize that the market can go down in conjunction with the dollar?

The gold price will only go down once stability is restored and interest rates go up. As long as interest rates are at zero, the opportunity cost between owning gold and a deposit is also zero.


With all due respect,



Thu, 11/19/2009 - 01:01 | 135512 Assetman
Assetman's picture

I respect your line of thought, Doc, and time will tell... because it's coming, whether we like it or not.

One inherent danger as all this is happening is to assume that the Fed will continue to monetize ad infinitum.  Ben Bernanke is a woefully misguided academic with a very sinister side, but I wouldn't go "all in" on the bag of nails bit.  He is beholden to his member banks, and to a Treasury that will absorb all these toxic asset losses.  He has very quietly started pulling liquidity out of the system, via ending various loan programs and expiring Treasury purchases.  Yet most now assume that the MBS program that expires in March will automatically be renewed with another one.  I find that interesting, to say the least.

One thing I will agree with... if/when we do get to an engineered flight to quality, there will be those who accumulate gold instead of US Treasuries.  That will be the smart money, and yes, we won't see the same flight we saw in 2008. 

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 18:58 | 135171 delacroix
delacroix's picture

But what happens when the USD rallies and the DOW tanks ?there will be some bargains in the junior miners

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:40 | 134641 Busy-Body
Busy-Body's picture


Looking for commentary/thoughts on GoldMoney as a possible secure medium in which to hold gold/silver/  Positives, negatives?  Thanks in advance.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:50 | 134662 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

They seem to have a good rep., but GoldMoney is still just paper, even if they claim to hold it for you.  Physical in hand is worth two in the digital bush.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:52 | 134668 geopol
geopol's picture

As was relier posted, if you want to avoid official attention GoldMoney may not be the way to go... As is required, the application is very intrusive, send an E-Mail to Max Keiser as he is a participant..

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:56 | 134678 Busy-Body
Busy-Body's picture

Thanks Geopol and Chumbawamba.   Follow-up:  does the situation change for GoldMoney, in your opinion, given that I am not a US national?

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:10 | 134707 geopol
geopol's picture

I don't believe national identity plays a roll... This subject has so many variables as to personal circumstances, preferences on ownership..... It's like buying a stereo system, your ears are different than mine.

I could say personal possession in a grenade canister with Vaseline Petroleum jelly to grease the threads as it will be buried in a place of your choice.. and get fractional gold 1/10 oz as is easily bartered, some say gold for wealth preservation and silver to spend..As you can see it's all based on your circumstances...


Good Luck



Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:21 | 134724 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Here's the situation I'm concerned over, BB: let's say the global monetary/banking system does collapse (high possibility, if not probability).  Things around your parts get dire and people are starting to require PMs for trading.  How are you going to get your gold from GoldMoney?  Figure most standard ways for getting your money that we take advantage of now will not be available (no ATMs, no regular postal or Fedex/UPS service, etc.)  Your gold will be trapped in a vault somewhere halfway around the world, i.e. it will not be in your hands.  What are you going to do then?  Your best bet is to try to convince someone that your IOU for gold will be honored as soon as you can figure out a way to get your gold.

Or to keep it in a less dire framing, if the global banking system collapses as above or experiences lock ups like in Fall of '08, the fallout of the collapse may mean it might take a good deal of effort and time to get your physical delivered.  Or your investment may be wiped out entirely.  What happens if GoldMoney, for whatever reason, simply can't deliver?

The main thing to keep in mind here is that if you do not have physical possession of assayed gold and silver then you don't have gold and silver.

Your situation may vary depending on your location on the planet and the prevailing political winds when the system finally breaks, but I would not rely on luck in this instance.  Luck is a lump of gold and a bag of silver rounds in your safe at a location you control.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:30 | 134745 bokapita
bokapita's picture

"Your situation may vary depending on your location on the planet and the prevailing political winds when the system finally breaks, but I would not rely on luck in this instance.  Luck is a lump of gold and a bag of silver rounds in your safe at a location you control."

This is so true; O mighty one. It is essential in a collapse to have food, heat, water and the ability to survive a few months while the ruling classes sort out the mess. In a collapse, where ever the gold is, it will not be much use, or a viable bargaining tool, for a few weeks or months. It is therafter it will be useful, mind you, if the vault is trashed you are stuffed, but so are you if your little abode is trashed by hungry desperate hordes of starving people. Does not take long to happen - estimate of number of days supermarkets are closed before food riots break out = 7.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:17 | 134820 tomdub_1024
tomdub_1024's picture

Due to JIT, the average major grocery has 3 (preferably) to 7 days of stock. This is so more floor space is available to display product, among many reasons. I know this is fact, I engineered/maintained the middleware that stores, warehouses and trucking (and just about everything else) ran through, at a fortune 40 grocer previously. So 7 or less (more likely) days until they have to close due to no stock, add 2-3 days until the average fridge/panty supply is you're about right.



Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:22 | 134829 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

i hope my wife's panty supply lasts longer than 3 days.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:25 | 134831 tomdub_1024
tomdub_1024's picture

lol!...pantry...proofread before posting, tom.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 16:27 | 134955 geopol
geopol's picture

fb, That made my day....Thats something I would do LOOOOOOOOL

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 21:15 | 135365 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

was that a Freudian slip or a Freudian panty?

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 01:16 | 135518 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

sometimes a slip is just a slip.

Fri, 11/20/2009 - 01:23 | 136982 tomdub_1024
tomdub_1024's picture

I wish my wife wore panties, then I wouldnt be slipping on Freud...

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:36 | 134754 Dr Horace Manure
Dr Horace Manure's picture

My studies tell me many people even lost their physical gold holdings during the Great Depression I. 

It seems as the banks collapsed, the soon to be unemployed bank employess had a wonderful time of looting the safe depost boxes of PMs and all other valuables.

For the GD II, your gold should be in your physical as well as "personal" possession.  Otherwise, you may never see it again.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:38 | 134758 Dr Horace Manure
Dr Horace Manure's picture

And just for the record, I am not Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:43 | 134767 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

"Safety Deposit Box" is a misnomer during a financial crisis.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:55 | 134785 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Depends who has easiest access, if it's 'safe'. Or not.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 20:15 | 135282 Neo-zero
Neo-zero's picture

You need to buy something that has a premium over spot and commission or keep it completly off the grid.  I have been buying 1800's french .20oz franc's their 90/10 gold copper about the size of a penny, junk silver mostly 1/4's and 1/2 dollars and some 1oz silver bullion type coins.  All of which is in a fire-proof gunsafe hidden behind a false wall. 

Like most anything else in life your descision depends on whats right for you and your situation.  You'd have to tailor how much of what depending on the assets you'd want to preserve and who you want to preserve it from.  Before the hyperinflationary SHTF I'm not going to have more then in todays dollars 10-15k of PM.  I will however have the means to protect it and my family and eat for those 3-6 months chumba-wumba spoke of. 

Good Luck

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:58 | 134902 primus
primus's picture

"a bag of silver rounds in your safe at a location you control."


Why not junk, Chumba? This is my kind of silver.


Wed, 11/18/2009 - 16:31 | 134963 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Whatever floats yer boat, mang!  Just get some.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 21:26 | 135377 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

OK, how about this kind of scenario. U.S. Govt makes possession of physical PM's (gold, platinum, silver, etc) by U.S. citizens and residents illegal and IRS pursues offenders keeping their PM bars in foreign banks the same way they do it now with "tax cheaters'" Swiss accounts. U.S. taxes her citizens without regard where they live so short of renouncing U.S. citizenship, you might have to give up your foreign stored gold even if you emigrate from America.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 13:41 | 135906 Neo-zero
Neo-zero's picture

That was the problem with owning bullion valued coins in the Great Depression.  The government took them out of circ and paid a flat rate.  Owners of old or rare coins were safe because the govt wasn't going to pay a premium. 

Thats why I own the older coins and keep them on hand but I just don't have the net worth to have more then a pocketfull of gold so maybe this solution won't work for many of you. 

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:01 | 134691 Guy Fawkes
Guy Fawkes's picture

My understanding is GoldMoney, operated by James Turk, buys physical and stores it in your name. So this is a completely allocated account. The idea is to store physical "out of the country". I think they have storage in London, Switzerland and I believe he was looking at the Perth Mint as well.

I do believe you can demand delivery unlike GLD or SLV which only settle in paper.

My $0.02

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:23 | 134737 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Yes, you can demand delivery, which is what sets GoldMoney apart from GLD or SLV, but a demand does not necessarily mean performance in a systemic breakdown.

If the lines of delivery are not there and you don't live near London, Switzerland or Australia then you will be fux0r3d.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:09 | 134810 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

You can take delivery from GLD in large amounts, not small.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 17:06 | 135016 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

TUNGSTEN Bitches!!

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 18:24 | 135121 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Would the GLD ETF be good to play momentum in gold prices if not concerned with SHTF?

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 01:10 | 135328 Renfield
Renfield's picture

(Who was that) Masked Guy:

Goldmoney stores in the Channel Islands. BullionVault stores in London & Zurich, looking at Perth. (BV used to have a NY vault which I think they recently closed.)

We had holdings with both of them up until the breakout started.

Closed out our virtual holdings then and rolled those over to physical. I say 'virtual' b/c yes, it is allocated, but if the rush is beginning in earnest I don't trust the safest foreign vaults against the rapacity of foreign governments & central banks. Yes, I have the highest respect for the integrity of Paul Tustain Adrian Ash and James Turk. But governments and CBs are prone to shenanigans when it hits the fan.

We kept our accounts open for trading later, if there is a large price pullback after a potential equities drop early in the new year.

I think there will probably be an equities drop, but not sure how much of a price pullback there will be since gold buyers now are not the same crowd as in 2008, and are much larger and more numerous. We'll continue to use those vaults for trading only, NOT for physical storage of our bullion capital.

You can take delivery of gold from GoldMoney MUCH easier than silver. Silver they will only give you if you hold HUGE quantities, and even then the shipping requirements are prohibitive. (For gold or silver, you have to pay for armoured car, etc.) BullionVault it is extremely difficult if not impossible to get delivery if you are not in the country where their vault is located. If anyone wants to see GM or BV 'black letter' on this I can look it up when I am back at home several hourse from now.

Bottom line, I would say the offshore bullion vaults are for trading allocated gold (as opposed to GLD & SLV), OR for storing in very very large quantities. Not for your average joe investor who just wants to keep his 'retirement fund' capital safe.


Oh, and yes, the applications are is buying bullion in Aus now. (The dealers are required by government to keep your ID on record, no matter how small your bullion purchase.)

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 02:01 | 135530 FreddyInBangkok
FreddyInBangkok's picture

keeping in mind Jersey falls under the eagle eye of a lady called Liz & although one of her many pirate coves across the globe EU authorities also have a say.

Only Turk's computers are in Jersey. Storage I understand is at VIA MAT, London (not a good idea) & Zurich. If you buy silver in either UK or Suisse you pay VAT about 17% not mentioned on GoldMoney.


Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:34 | 134752 geopol
geopol's picture

Well, you got some very good advice in the last few posts,,,, But if you really want to be secure and walled up with your investment in PM,,Buy physical, and put it in your jock,,, and sleep with one eye open.



Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:35 | 134753 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

...with a loaded shotgun in your arms.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:10 | 134811 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

"The law of the West was the law of the gun
Shoot and be fast live on the run"

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 17:07 | 135019 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

MOSSBERG Bitches!!

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 19:05 | 135186 delacroix
delacroix's picture

northwest territorial mint  free delivery   get a safe.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 21:40 | 135391 Doc
Doc's picture

They're considered amongst the best, if not the best...

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:45 | 134648 BrianOFlanagan
BrianOFlanagan's picture

here's the link to the article

Sounds like it's no physical - only derivatives and gold miners

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:05 | 134700 Guy Fawkes
Guy Fawkes's picture

Thanks Brian.

Makes sense now.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:49 | 134658 Green Sharts
Green Sharts's picture

Paulson also told his investors he thinks BAC will double in the next 2 years because loan losses are close to peaking and earnings will take off.  I wouldn't think that would fit into the worldview of most gold bulls.  Is Paulson buying gold as a hedge in case he's wrong on a recovery in banks and the global economy, or does he think the recent positive correlation in most risk assets will continue for an extended period?

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:57 | 134683 Pat Shuff
Pat Shuff's picture

Cerebral Paulson, beware hedgies giving shaky headfakes.

Stanley Druckenmiller of the Soros funds was on CNBC

years back giving his picks, like tech, and pans and later

report filings indicated the opposite shakes and nods

of his facetime.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:57 | 134684 geopol
geopol's picture

Without mark to market how the hell can we calibrate BoA liabilities and even come close to a proclamation of peak defaults??


Green Sharts, As you said I think he's buying the hedge..

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 01:37 | 135529 delacroix
delacroix's picture

never mind merril, you think countrywide wasn't a big fat poison pill

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:58 | 134686 Fruffing
Fruffing's picture

Paulson made his name, as most do, with one epic trade.  Few were listening to him in 06-07 as he built his positions.  

I'd not be surprised to see him peeling off the BAC shares as sheeple trade on his booktalk.   Gold is big enough, and secular, that his talk shouldn't make a big difference.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:49 | 134775 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

May be a small difference but there were two aspects to his 'best of all time trades'.

He shorted the banks AFTER he made a billions in the swaps, no?

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:59 | 134687 ghostfaceinvestah
ghostfaceinvestah's picture




Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:17 | 134721 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I disagree. His record pre-credit crunch was very good actually. No home runs, but steady high profits with low drawdown.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:18 | 134726 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Oh, but what a hit.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:20 | 134730 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Yup, and it seems Pellegrini may have been the brains behind the trade and has since departed.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:39 | 134761 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Exactly. Plenty of people saw the subprime crisis coming from miles away but didn't have access to be able to make the sort of bets he did. And he was wrong a lot until he was right.

Anyone can look like a genius if they can stay solvent until the markets become rational.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:13 | 134714 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

For our Canadian ZH's:

The bank of Nova Scotia has bullion purchaes as easy as "click to buy". (There may be other institutions as well). Looks like about 1-2% over spot (per oz.)

Note: As others have mentioned, this is a crowded trade. Me, I scale in over time. If I were Paulson, the last thing I would do is yell "fire" in a crowded room.
Unless I was standing at the exit.
Just my .02 .

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:17 | 134722 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture about late to the party. Time to buy DZZ.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:20 | 134731 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

new gold fund? just another way to control the price of gold, a new way to short gold.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:21 | 134733 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Bugs will see the light the hard way as they don't appreciate that the international bond markets RULE everything. If and when real inflation takes the ball from the deflation that is and has been occurring in everything from US Govt debt (if you are a European or Asian) to real estate, to cars, to candy at Safeway, that real inflation surge will kill bonds, the largest pool of wealth in the world, and that bear is hugely deflationary (wealth loss) as it naturally moves to discount the inflation coming on, which itself kills the inflation by draining the pool. Think USA in 1982.
Argentina, Zimbab, Wiemar Germany did not have vast wealth stored in the international bond markets, thus were not subject to its discipline as the US is today. The dollar will turn up and zoom as frantic public and private shorts try to find dollars to pay off their unmanageable speculative and non speculative debts which are HUGE. Today, right now, the markets are tracking the Dow of April 1930 and there is nothing the Fed can do about it. The Fed wants gold to run! Hell, they recalled and revalued it in the 1930's to jump start the deflationary collapse. It bails out a sinking debt ship, or tries to. Problem is the sinking debt ship is loaded with tens of trillions of worthless scrap. No way. But some years on, after the natural forces have killed the excesses of the last 30 years and the mountains of debt have been leveled by default, then the govt can play Zimbab.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:22 | 134735 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Bugs will see the light the hard way as they don't appreciate that the international bond markets RULE everything. If and when real inflation takes the ball from the deflation that is and has been occurring in everything from US Govt debt (if you are a European or Asian) to real estate, to cars, to candy at Safeway, that real inflation surge will kill bonds, the largest pool of wealth in the world, and that bear is hugely deflationary (wealth loss) as it naturally moves to discount the inflation coming on, which itself kills the inflation by draining the pool. Think USA in 1982.
Argentina, Zimbab, Wiemar Germany did not have vast wealth stored in the international bond markets, thus were not subject to its discipline as the US is today. The dollar will turn up and zoom as frantic public and private shorts try to find dollars to pay off their unmanageable speculative and non speculative debts which are HUGE. Today, right now, the markets are tracking the Dow of April 1930 and there is nothing the Fed can do about it. The Fed wants gold to run! Hell, they recalled and revalued it in the 1930's to jump start the deflationary collapse. It bails out a sinking debt ship, or tries to. Problem is the sinking debt ship is loaded with tens of trillions of worthless scrap. No way. But some years on, after the natural forces have killed the excesses of the last 30 years and the mountains of debt have been leveled by default, then the govt can play Zimbab.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:39 | 134762 primus
primus's picture

@ Busy-Body -

"GoldMoney® enables you to hold gold, silver & platinum that is fully insured and stored securely in specialised bullion vaults in Zurich and London. All metal is owned directly by you with no counterparty risk."

Plenty of factors here. It all depends on your outlook and your definition of 'secure'. If you think 'the system' is going to keep humming right along and want to hold PM to trade it back in for more fiat currency at a later date and if you don't have the means to safely store bullion on your own, by all means, this sort of service is just what the doctor ordered.

Personally, I view my PM holdings as the 'investment of last resort' and don't trust anyone to keep it but myself. In my view, I will either use my PM investment to buy food when it all comes tumbling down or pass my holdings on to my children.

I don't see much value in these middle-of-the road holding companies. Just use an ETF if you want to speculate on the price of gold. I say that because if a black swan sinks the GLD ETF, having your 'hard assets' locked in a vault inside a foreign country isn't going to leave you much better off. The Gubbermint will likely confiscate your holdings at that point.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:43 | 134769 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

As before all market collapses warning shot has been fired. Journey to Gold $550 has begun.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 20:26 | 135294 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

No longer showing.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:30 | 134844 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I think he's playing retail herd investors. He's probably ready to go in short and needs to draw in the remaining suckers.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:35 | 134860 John McCloy
John McCloy's picture

Bottom line is he Bought Bank of America back in June/July around $13.00/$13.50. It rallied and he did not sell. It just dropped all the way back to $14.00 and SAC & Heebner just dropped 90% of their holdings. Just as Meredith comes out and says ALL BANKS will need to raise capital and they are overpriced.All economic signs are beginning to tell us we are in the opening stages of a Depression.

Strangely Paulson comes out today and says in a "leaked memo", Bank of America should double. Then he announces a Buy of gold in order to further the dollar trade/rally.

In my opinion he is a little scared and pumping ones own holding while you still have some clout of 1 great call is not suprising. Besides someone had to short subrpime. Sounds like desperation to me.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 16:57 | 135001 huggy_in_london
huggy_in_london's picture

you guys are all mad....loading up on physical gold, making sure you can fly there to get it out....why don't you just build a bunker stock it with water and beans and buy a gun and store your gold there?  Don't forget to buy a cheese-grater to shave off some of the gold to pay for things.  If your doomsday scenario plays out your physical gold will just be confiscated anyway!  What did Friedman say ... "high living" i think it was!  That's what you need to do.  You miss the point of the Fed's actions.  They want inflation....they are craving inflation.  All you people took on huge debt - debt that was unserviceable at "normal" interest rates.  There's only one way out of this mess... and thats a lower ccy and high inflation.  So you will get low cpi's and high (real income producing) asset inflation.  You're better off buying an apartment block to rent out to people ... people will need a roof over their heads, and heck, you can even insist they pay you in gold!  Oh, make sure you leverage up that apartment block - and you'll get it for free!

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 17:43 | 136348 huggy_in_london
huggy_in_london's picture

Flagged as junk?!!!  Ha!  Seriously ... think about it.  If you are too lazy or lack the desire to earn your way out of a debt mountain then the easy way is to inflate it away.  And that's what they are trying to do.  

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 17:08 | 135021 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Some of you guys are certainly the nervous type.

Question: do you activate your airbag before you drive to the grocery store?

Me, I'm a risk taker. I play golf on cloudy days. I ride a bicycle without a helmet. I keep my money in a bank. Call me an adrenalin addict.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 17:48 | 135046 geopol
geopol's picture

Call me an adrenalin addict.


OK, Your an adrenalin addict.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 18:00 | 135066 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Would the GLD ETF be a good way to ride the gold momentum rise if one is not concerned with SHTF scenario or not worried about taking possession?


Wed, 11/18/2009 - 18:04 | 135075 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Get Cats for your Gold now!

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 19:30 | 135225 primus
primus's picture

They are on to something. During an ELE, at least you can eat a cat.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 18:56 | 135167 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Good luck everyone. I have never seen so many people so sure, so absolutely certain of the correctness of their investment (gold), since, well....since everyone knew home prices could only go higher. Absolutely no consideration of any other possibility except higher gold, lower currency. And the fervor would make both an APPL shareholder or a recent Islamic Madrassa graduate feel like a weekend believer.

Actually, though there was no internet at the time, I recall the same arguments about gold and the death of fiat money in early 1980.

Yes, you may all be correct...probably are. Then again.....

Disclosure: filled my offshore SD boxes (at 50 cents per ounce commission) in 1999. Continuing to empty them now (at spot).

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 22:00 | 135410 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

yeah everyone is so sure about gold. that's why i don't know one other person that owns any physical gold but almost everyone owns real estate and many own stocks.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 19:03 | 135181 hidingfromhelis
hidingfromhelis's picture

News Flash!


The tungsten deposits come in very high grade ore, located in shallow rectangular deposits dispersed widely across the world, segregated in unusual vault heap leach mineralizations. In October, the Hong Kong bankers discovered some gold bars shipped from the United States were actually tungsten with gold plating."

Gotta love Jim Willie!

Lots of weird stuff happening out there.  With that, it pays to remember the "i" in i-shares stands for imaginary. 

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 19:18 | 135207 LongMarch
LongMarch's picture

So, should I be long or short Tungsten?

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 22:56 | 135450 hidingfromhelis
hidingfromhelis's picture

Just a guess, but I'd say the folks that got stuck with the wacky bars would probably say it's overbought.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 19:47 | 135246 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Where do they procure gold? I am always wondering.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 20:11 | 135277 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

interesting how so many people can be so emotional about something, but hey i own as well...only question is with all the die-hard goldbugs here, what percentage of your total assets are actually gold? i'm only going to hit about 15% or so and beyond that i feel might be overkill...if that is the case then this is the most discussed minor holding of any kind ever.

people love dat dem sum shiny

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 20:23 | 135287 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Can ZH do a survey?

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 20:18 | 135283 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Barrick and Goldcorp were down big today dispite gold being up. Any ideas as to why?

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 20:52 | 135334 Renfield
Renfield's picture

Don't know much about Goldcorp but word is that Barrick is a dog, doomed by its hedge book which was used during its days as a government puppet attempting to suppress the gold price. I have heard that it is not even a real who is interested in real gold invests in Barrick.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 00:46 | 135504 FreddyInBangkok
FreddyInBangkok's picture

all you need to know about Barrick is it's run by an oik called Munk.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 01:47 | 135540 delacroix
delacroix's picture

barrick has lots of debt, production down, and political problems @ 2 mines that I know of, plus they still have some short contracts they couldn't borrow enough to unwind. don't know anything about goldcorp.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 20:24 | 135288 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

250 mill isn't much for JP. It represents a diversification.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 00:39 | 135501 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

It won't matter what you have invested in - we'll all be prisoners of Martial Law under quarentine for mass viral epidemics and everything will be illegal to possess and thus confiscated. Invest in guns and ammo - they will have better trade value.

Thu, 11/19/2009 - 00:52 | 135508 FreddyInBangkok
FreddyInBangkok's picture

being tungsten's cheap & heavy maybe silver bars are filled too. too dense maybe otoh some would be quite impressed by the heft of silver coins.  'the real thing you know ...'



Thu, 11/19/2009 - 01:51 | 135545 delacroix
delacroix's picture

silver hasn't been worth enough, to go to the expense and trouble to fabricate passable bogus bars, but watch out in the future, when it gets over $100 per oz

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