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Gold Surges With DXY Positive For The Day

Tyler Durden's picture


No, you are not reading that chart wrong. Gold just surged to near two month highs, hitting $1130/oz, or $12 higher, even as the dollar is green for the day. The fiat currency inferno is picking up, as traders refuse to keep their money in anything but gold or dollars - proof of tungsten gold counterfeiting is not helping the gold shorts. From the 2010 lows, the currency devaluation "safety trade" has been Gold and the USD, in a ratio of 5-1!

Intraday chart...

And from the February market lows: note the relative performance of the DXY and GOLDS:



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Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:11 | 251011 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Nothing to see here, move on !

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:15 | 251019 BrianOFlanagan
BrianOFlanagan's picture

but but but, my charts said gold was going down!  It broke through support!  I saw an inverted teacup & sugar formation.  It's soooooo overvalued, definately going down below $600!

It's going up?  This can't be!  You fools!  ARRRRRHHHHH



Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:25 | 251038 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

the teacup and sugar formation turned into the butterfly effect.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:58 | 251104 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The thing about markets O'Flanigan, is that people who post comments like yours are right one minute and look like asses the next. Congratulations, you've managed to pull both off simultaneously. No small feat.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:35 | 251247 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

I'm having trouble deciding if you did or did not understand his sarcasm.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:45 | 251259 Hulk
Hulk's picture

I believe O'Flanigen is giving one ZH'er with the initials MB
a bad time. But thats just my guess

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:59 | 251287 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

MB is notorious!  he must be reading the posts with glee!  "I am well known on ZH only due to my observable negligence!  Muhahahaha!!!!!!"  As Phil "Eminem" Knight once said, "Any publicity is good publicity."  MB get back here and tell me what your "giolden triangles" tell you!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:43 | 251365 Hulk
Hulk's picture

MB is a good counterbalance to my dark side though
I look out my window and see the coming financial nuclear winter.
I have no doubt it is coming, I have read way too much history
and know all to well how much fraud and corruption is in the system.At times I am even too much for my own self,so occasionally, MB's posts remind me there are other, brighter, possible scenarios.
Long Au
Long Ag
Long complex CH4 chains
Long Pb wih a BL-C(2) backer!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:49 | 251375 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Is it safe to say we won't like you when you're mad?

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:30 | 251532 Hulk
Hulk's picture

You definitely wouldn't like me when I am angry !

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:51 | 251376 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

if i held my own opinion as law, i would be a fool.  everyone's comments are welcome, and i await the day that my mom and dad are posting on ZH, even if to say thanks for the news.  MB is appreciated, even if I disagree.  All things must be considered to understand this "crisis" or "sh*t storm" that commenced circa '05 and will continue until further notice.  MB and I agree on most things, just not PMs.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:10 | 251508 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

Why thank you.  I don't dislike anybody here except for the people that are asses to me just because I disagree with them.

But yeah, thanks.  I appreciate you too.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:32 | 251446 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Complex CH4 chains would be some sort of polymerized methane.  I think you meant CH2 chains.

And my preference is Alliant powders, but to each his own.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:40 | 251549 Hulk
Hulk's picture

I'll grant you that
Heating Oil can be C14H30, C15H32, C16H34, on and on
I'll just make it simple and say Long Oil, as in permanetly

We use Aliant too. also other powders, depending on bullet grain, temperature, humidity, how much we have had to drink.....

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:36 | 251829 35Pete
35Pete's picture

I can't believe that you reload while drinking. That's the most amazingly irresponsible thing I have ever read. 

FINISH your drink before reloading. You risk spilling a good scotch onto your recipe. Powder is expensive and hard to come by. Dry powder is essential for good ballistics. 

You should know better. Shame on you. 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:29 | 251824 35Pete
35Pete's picture

IMR, Hodgens, and Accurate are fine choices too. 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 18:25 | 251619 Gold...Bitches
Gold...Bitches's picture

MB's posts just serve to remind me how early we are in this cycle.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:28 | 251822 35Pete
35Pete's picture

Long Pb with BL-C(2) backers? 

I'm long on Pb, Antimony, and brass. 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:57 | 251282 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

just because its expensive doesn't mean its over valued. its due to shoot up and silver even more. just watch. if you have paper dollars your a fool.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:09 | 251404 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

again: think sarcasm.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 18:09 | 251595 aaronvelasquez
aaronvelasquez's picture

Inverted teacup?  That was a Roman candle and carburetor with haggis highlighting, Brian.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:15 | 251020 Stuart
Stuart's picture

The Tungstengate gold counterfeiting is an awakening giant.   We need to have publicized the originating bank.  Gold shorts, undoubtedly involved, deservedly will have their heads handed to them. 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 19:02 | 251659 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

According to the foundry's Manhattan office, the reported story is ten years old. An internet re-cycle. Call and check for yourself. Whatever caused gold to move, that wasn't it, unless everyone here traded on it ;)

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:53 | 251849 merehuman
merehuman's picture

my sister in germany told me she had just seen it on tv. Why would they bring up something so old, knowing the possible repercussions?

I will ask my sister for some more info


Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:55 | 251852 35Pete
35Pete's picture

It's date of occurrence is actually irrelevant. 

The Tungsten-Salted Gold Issue has been branded a "Conspiracy Theory"* all over the net. In other words, people that believe it are kooky, paranoid, and hysterical. 

Except that it actually happened. And if it happened, then it's no longer conjecture, rumor or kooky theory. It's established fact. 

Which suggests to me that perhaps the other more immediate claims of fake gold might, might have merit. 

That's THE story. 

Just my two cents. 


*: "Conspiracy Theory" is a thought-terminating cliche used by pseudointellectual weasels that "believe" something's not true and wish to spike it with a derisive loaded and disparaging phrase so their smug asses don't have to expend energy defending their position. Often invoked by Coincidence Theorists who are often more emotionally willing to believe that a long chain of astronomical coincidences is more plausible than any potential event that invokes severe emotional distress via cognitive dissonance. 

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 00:12 | 251933 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Nothing wrong with checking with one's sister but mightn't one call the foundry that broke the story? It is illogical that the foundry that exposed the story would simultaneously be part of a conspiracy to vex the gold market.

That said, everything of value from designer jeans to Picasso has been and will be faked by the unscrupulous. That does not make the world complicite. Dismissing the story update as the rant of 'pseudo intellectual weasels and smug asses', substitutes vitriol for argument.

I make no judgement regarding paranoia vs prudence but it is a curious artifact of ZH that in over 300 responses to this thread no one bothered to vet the story personally. Swallowed whole and with relish.

Buy from reputable dealers. Your exposure is negligible. Certainly less than a lot of other financial vehicles. And isn't that the point of PMs?


Wed, 03/03/2010 - 07:12 | 252080 35Pete
35Pete's picture

I beg to differ. The comment was not directed at 251659 as he didn't invoke that angle in his comment. 

2nd, the "Coicidence Theorists", as I like to call them, will immediately dismiss this out of hand. (yes, it's derisive, but it's a response to a derisive tactic) Seen it already on this issue. When "conspiracy theory" is bandied about, it's nothing less than loaded words directed in a way to stifle, or stop in its tracks, any opinion that runs counter to what the labeling person believes. That's a fact. 

Frankly, there's no way I'm going to put up with that thrown in my direction. It in and of itself is virtriolic. It's not a reasoned or polite response. It means "shut up, your ideas are paranoid and nutty". 

Flashback. Harry Markopolos is not in the public eye yet. Papers leak out of Madoff's offices indicating a 60 billion dollar ponzi. It hits the web. What would be the first response? Conspiracy Theory!! "No way, the SEC would blow it open!". "Why would the former NASDAQ head risk his life doing this?"... Blah blah blah..

Yet it was true. And a conspiracy. 

And in circles on the web, the tungsten issue is being derided and laughed off as the active imagination of those whacky "conspiracy theorists". 

Do I believe that the video is authentic? Yes. Do I think this is part of a greater operation? I have no idea. There's no concrete evidence pointing to it. But I also think that it should be investigated in greater detail to see if that is so or not. I won't dismiss it out of hand, falling into the "conspiracy theory" cognitive trap. Particularly when it is quite obvious that we live in a world where our highest level institutions engage in universal deception, misinformation, and clandestine secrecy, and often in manners that are of great detriment to us. Aristotle once said, "it's the mark of an educated man to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it". 

I entertain the idea of widespread counterfeiting. Doesn't mean that I accept it part and parcel. It means that I take the consequences seriously enough to know that it needs to be looked at. Particularly when we live in an era of unprecedented malfeasance. 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:24 | 251032 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Arrrrghhhh! I'm buying this week again, down damn you down! You guys who are short gold, get in there and kick it up a notch, this is unacceptable.

God if you can hear me, can you send gold down to 900, in thy mercy. Use your divine vessel, Lloyd Blankfein, to crush the gold market and drive it into the gutter. Hopefully before I spend my fun buxs on gold, amen.

On the buying not thinking of switching my dealer to CNI off of apmex. Anyone have any experience with CNI? Apmex is alright but prices look lower at CNI and I can duck shipping and handling.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:29 | 251048 Pladizow
Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:51 | 251087 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Thanks for the link. Didn't have CNI but had some other dealers for me to look at.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:59 | 251858 35Pete
35Pete's picture

Mark at MontanaRarities is a good guy. I've bought some argentum through him. He's pretty standup and reasonable. Better prices in bulk which is typical. 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:50 | 251272 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Gainesville Coins gets a good review there...anyone have experience with them?

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:28 | 251441 JohnG
JohnG's picture

Yes.  I'm a frequent customer.  Better prices with bank wire payment, and they will cut better deals for large orders if you call.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:13 | 251125 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I've used CNI for 10 years. Never had a problem.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:40 | 251166 All_In
All_In's picture

Yes, I have experience with CNI.  I live in the LA area and have purchased gold and silver as a walk in customer at their Inglewood store (over the past 10 years) and I have ordered over the phone as well.  For phone orders, unless you pay via wire transfer, they will delay shipment until check clears (typically about 3 weeks).  In short, good experience all around.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:56 | 251383 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Awesome thank you! I called them today to set up an account and will be placing an order this Friday. Saw the bit about the long wait, which is a little longer then normal. I'm probably going to try a wire transfer since my credit union will only charge me a few bucks for it, just to try it out. For $7.50 it's worth it to me to get the gold in my hands 21 days sooner. Hell and it saves me the cost of a stamp, so really about $7 :) Really impressed with the no S/H and their prices so wanted to give them a go.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:10 | 251409 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

would be interested to hear your report on the experience.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:32 | 251447 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Will do when I get the coins I'll post it up in one of the many gold posts that gets made here. Another reason why I'm looking at bank wire, if there is a problem I want to know about it as soon as possible. I like apmex and doing it online but always bargain hunting, even though I'm a small fish that can only buy out of savings, which puts places like Tulving out of reach for me.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:29 | 251528 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

I've had good experiences with

They ship via overnight mail, for free, w/in 48 hrs of your wire being received.

And if you initiate the wire w/in 24 hours, you can deduct $15, to offset the wire fee.




Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:06 | 251789 trav7777
trav7777's picture

I have used CNI.  Bot from them at $285 and $305 for Mapes.

The exwife stole those...:(

Even see posters on TF whom I know recommending CNI.  They're the best outfit so far as I'm concerned.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:23 | 251034 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I think a lot of people out there right now are saying, 'is this for real?'  well, this is for real.  gold is decoupling.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:55 | 251097 Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture

Gold started to decouple Jan of last year. I remember because I wrote this little ditty:


Welcome to the Gold-Dollar Bifurcation



Welcome to the Gold-Dollar Bifurcation.
Just in time for the Obama administration.
Competition for the dollar.
This ought to cause the Fed to holler!

Welcome to the Gold-Dollar Bifurcation.
A new trend is in formation.
Shiny beats empty, and the financial systems goin' down.
If you got gold or silver, you're goin to town!

Welcome to the Gold-Dollar Bifurcation.
Derivatives implosion lead to dollar's deprecation.
Markets down, and bonds collapse.
The world's current financial system will lapse and pass.


Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:08 | 251117 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

nice poem.  I agree with your time line; so this stage of bifurcation is notably not just by the "goldbugs", as everybody and their mum should note the strength gold is showing, now it becomes obviously obvious to the world.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:32 | 251150 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

gold is always real, thus its appeal.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:28 | 251226 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

...and if you ain't got some,
Go out and beg, borrow or steal.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:24 | 251037 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Gold, addressing the academy: "You like me, you really like me!"

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:29 | 251046 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Fiatscos, bitches!


Oh, you think there might be a different message here?

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:30 | 251050 35Pete
35Pete's picture

What are tungsten futures looking like? 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:44 | 251072 AR15AU
AR15AU's picture

Hmm...  can't decide who to make fun of in my post.  Bob Pretcher or Jon Nadler?  Or how about those dweebs on Fast Money who moan and groan every time Schiff mentions the term "hyperinflation".

Man in purple oxford shirt: "But Peter, hyperinflation is defined as prices rising MORE THAN 50% in a year!?!?"

Peter Schiff: "Yes, it is"



Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:07 | 251402 ozziindaus
ozziindaus's picture

Don't bust your arse having too much fun just yet. When gold makes another all time high and holds, break out the Champas. Until then, deflation it is.

I like Schiff. I've met him personally but your quote is wrong on two fronts. Gold does not intuitively react to inflation as much as uncertainly. Hyperinflation surely brings uncertainty through loss of confidence in government and currency but we are nowhere near that. Therefore golds stability has nothing to do with inflation no matter what Schiff, Faber, Celente etc say.  

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:36 | 251452 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

No shit.  It goes up 1% and the people here think that it's the greatest thing ever.

Wow.  1%  That's like 100 bucks on a 10000 dollar investment.  *yawns*

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:46 | 251468 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I have to ask, what say you on the recent failed US treasury auctions?  If not gold then what, another fiat?  or do you prefer another commodity, say OJ?  pork bellies? 

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:58 | 251491 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

Anything that's not severely overbought, not setting massive divergences on the long term chart, and not in a rising wedge.

And not on every other commercial on Fox News either.

Failed treasury auction?  Yeah, us and everybody else.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:22 | 251523 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Exactly!  So when everyone's currencies fail, what do we do?  barter and trade?  No, you know better than that.  Currencies will have to be backed fill in the blank.  I am curious as to how you think to save the currencies.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:32 | 251535 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

But they won't fail.  The fact that we give them value is what gives them value.  You don't need backing because the only thing that makes them worth money is that people take currencies for goods.

It could be cheerios and it'd be the same. 

If they do fail, it'll just be another FIAT, like the Reichmark to the Deustchmark or whatever.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 18:44 | 251640 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

"You don't need backing because the only thing that makes them worth money is that people take currencies for goods."

Your logic is deadly wrong MB. If people believe that we are printing to infinity, that we are cheating worse than any other fiat, it will fail, people will stop believing in it and look for something that, oh, say, cannot be printed to infinity.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:18 | 251808 wake the roach
wake the roach's picture

Like another ZH'r pointed out to me recently (cannot remeber who) gold is infinitely fractional and guess what, he was right, both physically (given present technology) and by pen and paper (or keyboard and pixel, whatever you prefer)....

Just because they cannot print it does not mean they cannot increase its unit value, and remember that THEY can do as they please...

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 00:05 | 251929 nuinut
nuinut's picture

increase its unit value you say.... sounds kinda bullish.

maybe I should get me some of this...... what's it called again?

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 00:56 | 251968 wake the roach
wake the roach's picture

Yes that does sound guite bullish haha. Inflate the numerator, not the denominator ;-)...

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:07 | 251791 wake the roach
wake the roach's picture

"It could be cheerios and it'd be the same."



The fact is, the (perceived) value of gold is purely subjective... Unless for gold crowns among other things... If one does not believe that then answer me these questions three (or maybe more)...

What is the nominal value of gold in todays $US, relative to, well ah, nothing at all? Because whether you believe in inflation or deflation as the ultimate endgame, you are defining value relative to a currency that may or may not even exist a month from now...

If/when a new fiat currency is issued, what is the liklihood that it will be fiat and if so, what value does that give gold? Somewhere around zero I would bet..

And if/when a new gold standard is introduced as many physical gold investors believe, hope and pray, what value will governments/banks allow you to redeem your gold for in the new currency relative to the old purchasing power of the now worthless dollar? 1933 anyone, if your lucky?

And remember, the overwhelming majority of angry citizens, to put it mildly, will not own gold so what priority is a government going to give to gold owners over people that lost their wealth in dollars and euro's?

If you own physical gold, and are not going to sell for any present day fiat currency come hell or highwater then which catagory are you?

Want to know where the next great bubble is, Shhhh, I'll give you a clue. Its down in the basement locked in the boobytrapped safe which sits next to the gun cabinet that houses the m-16 that you will use to defend your home (prison) from your nextdoor neighbours...

See gold is kinda like the realestate bubble all the gold investors had seen coming right? Thats why you all bought back in 06/07 at around $600 right? 

So anons, b-boy fly girls and the gold bitches crew, flag my comment as junk if it makes you feel like big tough guys and gals... Otherwise, prove my logic (or lack therof?) wrong..

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:57 | 251857 lawrence1
lawrence1's picture

I would respectfully suggest you read the posts at

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 00:11 | 251932 wake the roach
wake the roach's picture

The link just sent me to some chinese scribbley shit and froze my computer so Im not going to try that again but if you are referring to well I have read much of the material already and it does nothing but help confirm my position. Unless demand for gold crowns/fillings, electrical connecters and jewellery go's parabolic, the world has a giant oversupply to work through, not that we don't have substitute materials for these uses anyway...

Were you trying to make the point that the chinese government and citizens still have gold fever? Much like when they migrated to California and Australia in the 19th century gold rush's and the smart fella's, instead of slaving and dying in mines built businesses fueled by the growing populations, and which some of these businesses in one form or another continue to survive to this very day?

If it were up to me I would swap all the gold we can get our hands on for China's truely valuable rare earth metals if they love it so damn much. Maybe if China, India whatever goes to a gold standard people can try and fly their gold out of the country but I don't think they will get too far...

At the end of the day, I could be wrong, gold to the moon and people can actully sell it for its new market value but it does not make my points invalid. This is  far from a risk free bet, I'd rather invest in metals that have an industrial use, just my 2 cents...

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 01:29 | 251981 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

I agree with you completely.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 00:29 | 251949 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

Ehhh wrong. You fail logic. You are assuming that value is something that is given by people, not by the properties of the thing in itself. In your anology a car only has value because we give it value when in reality a car has value because of what it can do.

It is true that we attribute value to an object but the true value of an object is due to it innate properties. So something can be over valued if we give it more value than its innate value, or we can undervalue something by not recognizing the properties of an object.

So ill ask you then would you rather own something as a currency that disintegrates in 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 5 years from use or never?

That is only one major difference between gold and everything else.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 01:28 | 251980 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

And what does gold "do?"

Make semi-conductors?  Tooth fillings?  Gold chains for gangstas in the ghetto?

The best thing gold does is purchase fiat currencies.  That doesn't mean that it will purchase MORE fiat currencies in the future.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 02:59 | 252017 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

[quote]And what does gold "do?"[/quote]

Gold stores value. Value is capital, or labor. Because value is either a thing created from labor or something that reduces the cost of labor. So gold is a store of value because it is a store of labor, or if you prefer capital. Cheerios, or pieces of paper, are not adequate means of a store of value because they degrade and decay. 

Gold is also a store of value because it is rare. But for the same reason that value is nothing more than labor the same goes for what we mean in rarity. Things that are rare are also harder to obtain. If something were easy to obtain then it couldn't be valuable because it wouldn't take work to acquire it.

So how does every fiat currency stack up to gold in terms of real value, it doesn't because it takes a fraction of work to produce the nominal number of the perceived value of the currency it represents. As well the currency also is not a store of value because the value of itself decays, the paper decays, and the system itself decays because it promotes the production of debt not real wealth.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 01:50 | 251991 wake the roach
wake the roach's picture

Ok, how about this for an idea...

Instead of a gold standard, we will have the BIS issue every nation a single special piece of paper that states the maximum allowable currency that nation can produce based on the nations development, natural resources, population, energy consumption per capita etc. etc. This piece of paper will then be framed and hung on a nice spot of the wall in each nations treasury...

Once every few years or so, the nice fella's from the BIS can come and audit the each nations finances, and then refer to the big black numbers on the special bit of paper that hangs on the wall in the nice spot in the treasury...

If the nation has been naughty and inflated the currency supply beyond the limit set by the BIS and shown clearly in bold black numbers on the special piece of paper then they are fined and the funds go into an international natural disaster relief fund or some shit...

There ability to inflate currency supply ends and no need to waste any more energy mining useless gold, no further excuses for more resource wars, and even poor countrys are given a special piece of paper too...

Oh, And no need for governments and central banks to lie about their gold reserves because no one can audit them anyway... 

So what do you think? It sounds pretty hard but I think its possible if we all put our minds to it... 


Wed, 03/03/2010 - 02:40 | 252008 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

lol. I think you should tell the roach to go back to sleep.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 03:19 | 252025 wake the roach
wake the roach's picture

I'm glad you found the roach's idea amusing, but more than that, I hope he made his point clear that we can create scarcity with as little as a pen, ink and and an non national regulating authority...

Sure its not corruption proof, but neither is tungsten filled gold bars or a banks gold vault that cannot be audited...

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 04:07 | 252037 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

I don't think the two of us are orbiting the same planet right now.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 06:45 | 252075 wake the roach
wake the roach's picture

Well burnbright, I would be lying if I said that I do not get that kind of response on a regular basis, and I freely admit that I almost never take the prevailing view... Not trying to be the contrarian here, its just the way I roll homey haha...

I do agree that gold will outperform all markets over the coming years, not even superman himself can save us now... What I dispute is the outlook for gold once we come through the storm for the reasons I have stated...

So anyhoo, later ;-) 

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 13:50 | 252510 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

Well as I have stated before, the only way to trade your labor equally is with gold.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:43 | 251074 knukles
knukles's picture

Best reserve asset;
1.) Gold
2.) Non-US dollars (except Zimbabwe)
3.) US Dollar
4.) Who Cares
5.) Euro tied with Zimbabwean Dollar

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:47 | 251080 taraxias
taraxias's picture

by Master Bates  on Wed, 02/17/2010 - 21:29 #234916

How's this for words?  Gold is back in a downtrend.

You can save my post for a couple more weeks again, and use it to prove that I'm right again.

Gold sub 1000... :)


It'll be two weeks to the day when this guy posted this, I'm almost starting to feel sorry for him.............NOT!!!!!!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:55 | 251098 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

Trolls never die. They just reappear with different screen names.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:31 | 251149 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Let me guess... was it Master Bates that said it?

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:44 | 251465 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

Look, I post under my name only.  I don't know wtf you're saying, but here I am.  I didn't make any post without the trademark MB.  Kay?  peace.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:54 | 251278 Hulk
Hulk's picture

The time to feel sorry fo these guys is when the fiat currency collapses. But if/when that happens, the last thing we will be thinking about is MB and friends
But hey, we warned them, we explained the history of Fiat currencies
to them until be were blue in the face and bored out of our minds.
You either get it or you don't. I figure if they don't get it by now, they never will....
We are not "goldbugs", we are wealth preservers....big difference

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:46 | 251470 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

Blah blah blah... a one percent gain in two weeks and now the world is going to end by tomorrow.

Holy shit, did you see gold?  It went from 1120 to 1130 in TWO WEEKS.  *yawns*

It's still going sub 1000.  You can write it down.

By the way, gold went down after I said it would.  Now that it's back up again, NOW that homo retrieves my post. 

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 00:26 | 251945 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Nothing moves up all the time. Nor does it move in a straight line. 1% in two weeks is better than J6P can get from a MM account.

You have to remember, we are not all traders throwing our cash at the market Ouija Board. Many here are simple folk attempting to preserve wealth while we work our day jobs, and watch the long slow train wreck


Wed, 03/03/2010 - 01:22 | 251977 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

Yeah, but it's not like the people holding gold are making money on the moves.  Many bought gold at extremely high levels.  Most are up 10%.  That's good, but what happens when you hold until it falls?

Things don't go up forever, and gold is no different.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:53 | 251091 seventree
seventree's picture

I doubt the tungsten-fake-gold story is responsible for any of this. So far there is still just 1 video from 1 german tv station about 1 fake bar. And I don't think even this has been picked up by anything remotely close to mainstream media, which means very very few people, even among the small subset of gold investors, have even heard about it.

I'm not casting doubt on this report or minimizing its signifigance. In fact it is very significant. The bar displayed obviously required considerable manufacturing investment and nobody did that to run off a small number of fakes. But so far the whole subject does not seem to have registered on the public conciousness.

If there is a news driver behind this price run-up, it is more likely an illogical and irrational reaction to quake impact on Chilean mining.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:26 | 251141 Anton LaVey
Anton LaVey's picture

Yes, but this was filmed at one of the biggest private gold foundry in the world.

And German firms are pretty conservative, and don't blabber to journalists like that. If this was effectively filmed at Heraeus (and nothing in the video makes me doubt this), you can bet the upper management approved the interview. I think the Germans are sending a very clear message to whoever is responsible for the tungsten scandal: "we know you are here and the game is up".

Chile earthquake may be a factor, true, but Gold has been on the rise for years now, so this may not be such a big influence on the market.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:36 | 251157 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

+33 1/3

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:47 | 251263 seventree
seventree's picture

Anton, I don't doubt the report, just whether it has penetrated public awareness.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:33 | 251152 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I just posted it on facebook does that count?

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:34 | 251242 seventree
seventree's picture

Facebook is so over. If you want to be helpful get some tv celebrity twit to re-twitter your tweet.

English was my first language ... I miss it sometimes

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:01 | 251292 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

wtf btw?!?!  fml!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:38 | 251351 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture


Wed, 03/03/2010 - 00:29 | 251951 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture


Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:04 | 251301 merehuman
merehuman's picture

I pased the news on to utube friends. Silverfuturist has already made a video on this subject. He is a most endearing fellow as his sincerety drips from him.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:53 | 251092 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

So way is the stock market up , its like up the 4 day in a row now. You people said it should go down, and its not and my shorts are hurting . when will it go down again.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:53 | 251093 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I call this 'the dangling carrot' effect.
The vast majority of earth serf's are not capable of mustering the slightly over $1000 mark to purchase a coin of gold, which they know by gut feeling will be worth much more in the future.
The reason we keep setting the spot price just around $1100 is to torture the serf's. Look at them braying how they wish gold would dip sub 900 just once so they could rush in and purchase one measly coin, a representation of their value and worth. LOL.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:31 | 251233 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

um, no. apparently you've never opened your eyes far enough to see that you can buy gold in other than one oz denominations. you see, there are these things called one gram gold bars. and if gold goes to 10,000 they'll start making 1/10 gram bars for sale, or whatever people (the market) want... dumbass.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:08 | 251310 merehuman
merehuman's picture

This little PEON/Serf  buried his gold in the garden. When  the potatoes come up in the fall i will harvest my gold

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:38 | 251352 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Sounds like some pricey chips.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:13 | 251414 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

just hope they're not salted.

(couldn't resist)

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:50 | 251477 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

You'll be digging it up before that like "holy shit, where's my gold, I gotta sell before it goes down some more."


Tue, 03/02/2010 - 23:25 | 251886 merehuman
merehuman's picture

There is a bigger hole for the fiat to fall into.

It will never make it to 87.00.

Master Bates you are a fun diversion and thank you in your sincere interest in persuading us from making the serious error of purchasing gold.

The POTATOES are the gold i spoke of. 

I do own a little silver and did bury it.

Buried so i would keep my own paws off of it.

Once you hold some in your hand, recognize the energy you had to exchange to get it, you may get the idea why we feel such certainty

about its value. To be honest, the first time i bought some 1oz krugerrands it amazed me how small it was. barely larger than a quarter.

And the 1/4 oz is barely lager than a nickel. I felt let down at first.

Since than i have switched to silver. Holding a ten oz bar, you feel like you got something.

Holding a hundred dollar bill doesnt move me, nor does 27,000.00 cash. Thats the most actual cash i have ever had in my hands , left me cold.

Occasionally i drag out the silver bars and rounds and the old lady and i admire the result of our labor. We have  given away a few rounds to deserving, unsuspecting strangers.

We are old and dont need that much but we both know what true value really is.

Its the moment, being alive in it, loving it.

Money, silver and gold is fun to chat about, but in the end we all need


Each other

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:54 | 251094 Oso
Oso's picture

23 out of the last 26 Monday's have been up days.  92% of Monday's since July have been up days.  And something like 80% of the total market gain from the March 2009 bottom have occurred on the gap up on Monday, whereas only 20% of the market index gains occurred from Tues - Fri i.e. the market tended to drift the rest of the week with the majority of the gains on Monday, and most of that on the gap up on Monday.



Tue, 03/02/2010 - 12:57 | 251101 obewon
obewon's picture

JPM and/or GS gonna have to shell out some bucks to put out the TungstenGate fire (read: secret payoffs) . . .

Otherwise, they gonna have to continue to short the gold market big time.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:51 | 251482 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

Yeah, it's a good thing they're short gold and silver, right?

I mean, since they've been wrong on all their *other* trades and all...

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:04 | 251111 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The National PITW (Pissin in the Wind) Bureau has just issued the following Black Swan warning for all politically influenced markets effective immediately through 10:00AM tomorrow.

Deb Medina....more....
God Bless Texas...end

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:10 | 251124 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

but Cody Willard and Prechter said gold would crash!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:51 | 251483 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

They're right.  That multi-year chart looks nasty.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:12 | 251798 trav7777
trav7777's picture

I agree.

I plan to preserve my wealth by stockpiling the currencies of bankrupt nations

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 09:05 | 252106 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Good when it goes down that will suck in a bunch of new gold bugs.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:18 | 251131 truont
truont's picture

Gold up even though FRN is up?

Maybe people are figuring out that foreign players are buying less and less treasuries with each passing auction (ie indirect take-downs are falling).

Time to grab a chair before the music stops playing...

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:35 | 251154 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

I got enough to count as multiple chairs. I could line them up and take a nap.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:48 | 251265 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Mrs. Bernanke: "sleep tight - don't let the goldbugs bite"

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:45 | 251257 MiningJunkie
MiningJunkie's picture

Ain't no fever like Tungsten Fever!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:02 | 251293 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Anyone have experience with both CNI and Tulving?
Facebook B*tches

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:03 | 251294 JT Marlin
JT Marlin's picture

Yes, Gold is the only metal that you dig out of the ground, refine it, then stick back into the ground.  What useful purpose is there?  If people are true wealth preservers, who are afraid of the "looming" collapse, shouldn't you be buying commodities in bulk quantities, such as oil, grains, livestock, instead of a metal with no useful value, other than the fact that it is rare?

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:17 | 251316 merehuman
merehuman's picture

Sure. 2,000 cows in my backyard and i have to feed them

50 barrels of oil , same back yard,storage costs.

How much grain can i get in my bedroom?

Gold requires only that i keep it safe. easily done.

All other storages of value add costs and difficulty.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:22 | 251327 JT Marlin
JT Marlin's picture

True, but don't you think that if as many have predicted, the US economy will collapse, all trade with the US will cease, and then what?  I guess I just don't understand?


Wouldn't it make more sense to spend paper money today (you know, since it is all fake anyways), to have something worth consuming, and using if the economy collapses and America is thrown into a huge headwind, instead of immovable, unedible pieces of metal that cannot be easily traded for necessities because at that point, who will have commodities?  


It just does not make sense, to me at least.  

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:28 | 251332 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

History shows that in an economic collapse, precious metals are at the top of the barter economy/black market. They provide perfect flexibility. If you only have eggs to trade, or wheat you need to find someone who wants eggs or wheat. And you better hurry before your commodities rot.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:28 | 251336 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

If there's no official currency, anything and everything becomes tradeable. Some things will be easier to trade than others. Precious metals are in that category.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:06 | 251399 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Some of us are planning on not riding out the storm here and gold is universally the currency of refugees and the like. Sure you might not get perfect market value out of it, but if it is real bad out there it will get you to where you are going and grease the palms along the way.

If you are going to ride out the storm then I would suggest farmland, fuel supplies, livestock, food, and weapons. But I would simply prefer to move where life will continue in much the same way as I'm used to. Dealing with rioters is not for me.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:34 | 251450 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

I would like to know where life will continue unchanged, in a good way.  I imagine, of course, that life in various primitive countries will be mostly unchanged, as also perhaps in some highly authoritarian countries.

I think even the nicest parts of europe could be quite unpleasant if the US/UK joint venture goes down, as it seems likely to do.  And some of the nicer remote places like NZ might have food and oil issues if trade grinds to a halt.

But I'm all ears.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:33 | 251537 Shameful
Shameful's picture

When I state unchanged I mean not set for a massive upheaval. I expect things to get more difficult in most nations and I expect to see a lot more crime globally. This to me is about picking the best of a bad situation.

I know the US will go off like a barrel of nitroglycerin. you have to much debt and unrealistic expectations built into a populace. So the US is right out. Canada is out because I expect them to be overwhelmed by Americans (legally or legally) leaving the US and going to greener pastures in Canada. Most of Europe will have problems because they are infected with the same debt disease as the US/UK. The UK is a joke, it's like watching 1984 unfold mixed with nightmarish fiscal and economic policy.

You mention NZ and they might do alright assuming that gold does not get cut off in the West's death throes. I'm also nominally bullish on Australia in the long term. They are linked in with the Asia story, but they need to have their housing bubble pop and have a restructuring so they will have a lot of problems in the short the medium term. I think that knowing that they are in a bubble means that one can mitigate part of the problem if one is there.

In Asia we see a lot of problems and opportunity. Japan will eventually creek and break under their massive debt load and aging population. They have an interesting mono culture so not sure how well they will hold up, I'm no expert on Japan. China has massive malinvestment. They are a major manufacturing hub, but many of their products will not have buyers which is bad and they have effectively lender financed their industry and we know where that story goes. Having said that I'm bullish on China in the long term because of their industrial base and the fact that many do save so much and less of an expectation for government to be there but I see problems there in the short to medium term. Which leads me to Taiwan, which I actually like a lot. Sure they have problems and a little to in debt for my taste but I see one of the large issues with them is a future relationship with a CP in China that is trying to invoke nationalism.

I've heard nothing but great things about Singapore and I do expect them to get hit fairly hard in the breakdown of the west but I don't think they will slip into social chaos one of the things I'm trying to avoid.

Personally I'm looking largely at Singapore and Australia in the short term to medium as I think they will "last" longer them most of the west and then Singapore, Taiwan or China/HK after a few more years.

You are right that most places will get worse in case of a major meltdown but we have to look at it on a scale and where it will fall from where it is at and what kind of chaos it will cause. Some of this is cultural, so I might expect Japan to weather the default better then the US for example. It also is a factor about how fast a prospective nation could bounce back. A nation with a large manufacturing base or massive natural resources will be better positioned to emerge from the crisis.

Also a lot of it boils down to oil. I don't think the West will destroy oil production/shipping in it's death throes, but if it does then yes the world changes vastly for the worst everywhere. And if the West decides to gamble it all on a world war. If the West goes quietly into the good night then I actually think most of the rest of the world will be able to stand back up after not to long. After all it is not like the Wests good for the debt so really they should be ready to write off this bad debt now.

Sorry for the long post but I felt the need to get my ideas out there since I know you have more experience in this then I. So I would love to know what nations you might be looking at.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:38 | 251545 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

I wouldn't touch Australia. They are levered to the hilt, and totally dependent on commodity exports to China. Not to mention they are running out of water.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 18:19 | 251602 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

A very long and detailed reply.  I should state that I do not think I necessarily have more experience on this question than you do, but I'll take that as a compliment.

New Zealand looks best for peace and stability as long as some trade is ongoing.  If trade totally collapsed it would have some trouble maintaining itself, and ethnic tensions might come up.  It is one of the most isolated countries in the world, so it could get cut off from trade very easily.

Australia I would avoid.  Their economy is good now, but extremely dependent on exporting resources.  Trade dries up and that dies.  They can barely grow food as it is now and desertification is serious and worsening.  You can't eat coal and taconite.  I would avoid Australia.

I would not be so down on the US.  Sure, avoid California and the northeast like the plague.  There are more remote places that could be relatively unscathed, as long as there is local food production.  You can easily research suggested areas if you feel so inclined.

I basically agree with you on Canada.  A decent country now, but could easily be overrun by @#$#@ illegals from south of the border (irony intended) if the US were to collapse or even just enter a recognized depression.

UK a basket case.  Germany, France etc. likely to explode from ethnic tensions relating to their recent immigrants.  Just my 2 cents.

I think the nordic countries could do OK, with ability to feed themselves being the largest problem.  Following from that, I think the "eastern europe" formerly nominally communist countries such as Poland and Czech Republic could do well if they can manage their international politics with the old bear to the east.  They would only need to appease it enough to remain independent, somewhat like Switzerland has managed for a long time.  Much smaller immigrant communities compared to western europe, less energy dependence and better ability to feed themselves.

Uruguay and Panama might be worth a look.  And Chile too, notwithstanding the quake.

There are several wealthy tropical islands that would be great options if you are confident that trade will continue and you either have considerable assets or are confident that you can continue working in the international financial sector.  If you aren't confident in those assumptions, those islands are only a few weeks of interrupted trade away from starvation.

If you have white skin I would avoid anywhere in asia.  I think europeans are going to be convenient targets of lynch mobs once things get really ugly.  Just look at the Uighur issue in western China (not involving white europeans but as an example of tensions), or the various happenings prior to and during WWII.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 19:47 | 251708 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Thanks for the reply

I completely agree that Australia is completely dependent on China or the Asian countries for it's economy, and they still have a housing bubble to pop. I'm just thinking that will continue on some level to keep them out of total collapse. Sure it's not a sure thing and I know they are leveraged up I just see them as one of the best western countries I think I could get into. You mention the Nordic countries and I could see them having problems as well. If Europe is literally melting down and they are still covering all the cool "free" services I think they might have the same problem as Canada. I had a friend a while back who was willfully unemployed in Finland, because he figured he could make almost as much not working as working. A system where that exists will not go on for ever even if there are natural resources to exploit, they may be falling later in the line but I don't like that model.

As to the US I think it will be violent, very very violent unless you are in a rural area and then the question will be about how to get fuel, as most US agg is big agg business and heavily fuel dependent (I know it's not all I have some cousins who are farmers in the rest belt). Now I might be wrong on the violence but that would mean martial law, and I don't like either scenario. Growing up in the SW I see a fair amount of tension. Now maybe it's my poor white background but there are a lot of poor angry white people (with guns) who blame part of their woes on the illegals, the "De took 're jobs!" group. So tempers will flare with them, and I'm sure the illegal pop or those with a Hispanic background will not take kindly any abuse. So I can see a lot of cultural tensions in the US and we have an angry society that feels entitled and has been acclimated to violence and will be looking for a scapegoat. The Jews were scapegoated in Germany, and I expect people to try it here to focus the mob away from stringent up bankers and their bought politicians. So sure maybe in areas of Utah or Idaho in the rural areas most of the violence will be avoided but I expect a lot of crime and violence in cities as the welfare net breaks down and people hit their limit.

Actually I've thought it over and I think America will likely be a great place to come back to with a little money. There is a lot of natural resources but they are to expensive to get now because of prices, labor costs, regulation, and environmental concerns. But post collapse/regime change it might be a lot easier to grease the wheels and open a copper mine or drill for natural gas or mine coal or uranium or any number of resources. So I've considered the idea of coming back and investing once everything settles down.

I didn't look much at eastern Europe because my family is from there and I'm a little leery of going back to the region. A lot of war and conflict in that zone and fought on that soil. Might have to do a little more research into that area. Maybe I'll get lucky and I'll hear back about being able to get EU citizenship.

No interest in the islands. I'm a programmer by trade so even though could do my job on the moon most likely I'll have to be in an urban zone for any employer. Don't have the skills or exp to be able to demand working from a remote location yet. No island for this guy, I'm still a poor student who is saying his pennies :)

I'd like to believe it would not resort to lynch mobs in Asia. I have have talked to people who spend a lot of time in the region including a UN translator that spent the better part of a decade living just in Japan and he thinks the area is a good call for the future. I also expect a level of scapegoating to happen but I don't know how bad it will be over there. I might also be taking for granted the general low level of violent crime in those places.

I had started looking into Chile right before the quake actually and liked what I saw initially. I don't like Panama because of the high expat pop that is on fixed incomes or otherwise retired. When those guys go bust the local gov will not look to kindly on us expats. Uruguay looked interesting and I was still doing research. Not a huge fan of their "neighborhood" at least Chile has the mountains.

I'm trying to find a mostly stable place I can flee to and work from and I'm willing to go most anywhere to do it. I know the whole world won't cease to exists just because the West has it's ponzi economies crash. I'm American and I think it's kinda a silly idea that the world will be plunged into another dark age if we cannot consume like we have.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 20:12 | 251722 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

Just a thought or two in reply.  I recommend you focus on hard facts and not hope.  Some parts of eastern Europe have relatively little history of violence.  I would, of course, avoid the Balkans.  Also remember that many places you might consider in Asia have a history of lynch mobs and violence against foreigners of various kinds.  You would be the white american with no guns and no way to escape in such a situation.  To me that isn't a great person to be.  I also think you should consider local production of food in a world where trade is lower, unstable, and dependent on fuel spikes.  Australia could get awfully hungry in such a world, as could China and perhaps Singapore, HK and others.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:38 | 251832 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Australia hungry? There's only 20 million of us, and we annually export some $20 odd billion worth each year.

Only problem with Chile is they speak Spanish too damn fast. Argentina might do alright if the rest of the world falls down a notch....

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 00:28 | 251950 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

I suggest Jared Diamond's books Collapse and Guns/Germs/Steel for some discussion of Australia's agricultural issues.  It may be an exporter of wheat for now, but agriculture there is as precarious as in the Sahel, perhaps more so.  It is the driest populated continent by far (Antarctica might be drier technically speaking) and there's no sign that it will get wetter.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 22:17 | 251805 trav7777
trav7777's picture

I did this analysis years ago...I came up with Brazil and Norway.

EVERYTHING revolves around energy and these are two net exporters with functional economies.  Each has major pros and cons.  Canada would be ideal but/for its proximity to the US.  All other major oil exporters are Russia or Arab.

Would not touch a country that was a major non-energy commodity exporter, nor a major importer.  Maybe hide out in Iceland, who knows?

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 01:20 | 251976 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Norway looks a bit rough to get into. I have heard a lot of bad stories when looking at Brazil, what has your research uncovered? I like the idea of energy exporters as well and I agree with your analysis of Canada, if it was not next to the US it would be at the top of my list.

Now I think the Middle East will be a powder keg, too many hands trying to go into the cookie jar at once, also there is the geopolitical prospects of what Israel will do if the US implodes and is not their to help them fight above their weight class. I don't know what they will do no one does, but that have a big military that is modern and have nuclear weapons so they could do nearly anything really.

For full disclosure have never looked at Russia, I don't want to. I heard a lot of anti-Soviet/anti-Russian stories as a kid and would run into a mental problem with going there for "safety" or "freedom" when people I knew were driven from their homes by Russians. It's not rational, but I'm human so I'm not a wholly rational creature.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 23:48 | 251914 merehuman
merehuman's picture

To flee?   Stay and defend your country!

Foreign banks are taking over your country and you are gonna let them have it?

You all made your money off us and now your gonna run?

Where are the Jeffersons and patrick henrys?

Is there so little courage amongst us that we cannot cut the head of this monster?

must we by choice keep our money in the too big to fails?

Come AMERICA regain your country!!

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 01:38 | 251986 Shameful
Shameful's picture

What country? What is there to defend is there still a Constitution? If there is I don't think the Gov has got the memo on that. I think that ended with Lincoln and most definitely with FDR.

Banks are not taking over, they have already taken over. They won, we lost. They stole it, and have title. There is little doubt it's a government of the oligarchs, by the oligarchs, for the oligarchs. You do realize you own nothing right? Not your land, not your bank account, not even your flesh, they own all of us because they have authority to take all we are and we have no right to stand against them.

Yep, I grew up hear and worked my menial job and I saved every penny, not doing my patriotic duty by going massively into debt. I see midnight approach and plan to leave. So yes I'll take the money I saved with me. If you read another post I plan on coming back with it to invest in an America that will respect capital, savings, and industry instead of becoming a nation of thieves, grifters, and con men.

Patrick Henry and Jefferson are spinning in their graves, as they would have revolted decades ago. We are not them and if they were to show up on the scene they would be labeled as terrorists and probably be tortured in a CIA black site as soon as they were captured.

Cut the head of the monster, where is the head? It's not GS or JPM, we all know it goes higher then that. Are you blessed with the insight to know why is the guy calling the shots and could make a stunning blow to right all the wrongs without another head of the hydra sprouting?

The only way for America to be America is to pick it after a fall. Stay if you want. I know people that see this happening and are going to stay. To me it's pointless, they have the tanks, bombs, missiles, nukes, we have handguns and rifles. They have strategic stores and plans, we have no leadership and no reserves. They openly talk of infiltrating any group that is a threat to them and on record do so. Direct confrontation is madness, the only thing that will work is to deprive the beast of labor and capital to feed on. I'm going to be doing that I will leave and deprive them of my labor and my tax burden and do my part to hasten the death of the leviathan. Though I expect them to squeeze so those who stay will be made penniless by the last rounds of looting. America is dead, the flesh and organs have been consumed, now they are cracking the bones open to suck the marrow out. We know that by 2020 the debt will be a minimum 20T, and that the Gov's rosy figures. Either we will default or devalue, in either case there will be a looting and death of the middle class as America descends into the 3rd world. A banana republic with nukes. I grew up here and love America so it pains me to see this happen but I am powerless to stop the final phase of the death of empire America. I can only hope that out of the asses many years down the line something great can grow once more.

This is the internet so we are not going to change each others minds. If you stay and fight I wish you well and I wish you success, but I think you have chosen the path of pain and death, I sincerely hope I am wrong, it takes courage to stand against the beast. I'm not a brave man, not even on the internet where I'm anonymous, I'm not going to fake courage. Though in closing I would like to ask, what are you doing to fight? Is it talk online or are you doing protests or trying to starve the beast in your own way. Staying here to "fight" but complying with the beast is not going to weaken it.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 03:14 | 252024 merehuman
merehuman's picture

What am i doing.

I promised my self 2 months ago to alert my neighbors to reality and each person i met each day. I have done that and will keep on.

Along the way i have given up at least 20 oz silver to strangers , to make the point to them clear.

I have expanded our garden to grow more than we need.

There is enuf food packed away to feed my neighbors and us for a year.

I connect with people on utube and we exchange info.

My bottom line is my community. None of us can stand alone. The area i live in allows for selfsufficiency, fishing , hunting and farming.

Water is in abundance and the terrain allows some safety from strangers and nuclear strikes due to mountains all around and only 2 points of entry to the outside world. Our population is older and well prepared from previous life experience.

I make a karmic choice to accept the bad as i have the good. Nor would i leave my house should the wife be sick or get rid of the dog because its peed on my bed 3 times (yes it did!)

Dont get me wrong, i love life, but it must be worth living. This stubborn old kraut may die for his principles, but he will do it fighting if he must. I will be fighting for my selfrespect and the ability to love who i am as i do now.

I am still a german citizen, have distant family there encouraging me to come.

America with all its faults is home.

You too are my family and i wish you well whatever path you choose. But in the end you have to live with yourself and leaving the scene of a fight, before during or after is always a wise move. If you have children i would indeed encourage you to leave for safer climes and welcome you upon your return.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 09:22 | 252123 Shameful
Shameful's picture

I have a lot of admiration for what you are doing.  I'm glad you brought up your age, not because I think it's important but because it is part of my "cop out".  As a young person I don't feel I've had a chance to lead my life.  All I have done is work and study in attempt to build a better future for myself, and now it looks like that future will turn into ashes.  As my colleagues were out partying I was working late hours or studying, in some ways they had it right.  To squeeze the pleasure out of life while I worked and lived like a monk, especially if both groups are here with no future.  I want my chance to live.  Also as a young person I'm horrified by the idea that Uncle Sugar could try to shove a gun in my hands to have me murder on his behalf.  I'm not insulting vets as many of my close friends are vets, but my personal moral code does not allow for the taking of life except in the most dire of circumstances, and that does not include planning to take life.  Life is too sacred for anyone to have the right to take in the casual manner that most governments take it.  Quite frankly I don't want to go into the afterlife with blood on my hands.

I have done some things such as stocking up, because I had planned on ridding it out.  Did the whole 9 yards, year food supply (canned at a LDS cannery because of a friend), guns/ammo, water filter, precious metals including a lot of silver in case it came to trading.  What convinced me I could leave was a hard line liberal and I talking about the world, and the system we face.  She was so happy her man had won she was willing to overlook all his sins in much the same way as conservatives overlook the sin of their man.  In our conversation she dropped the line "If you don't like it then why don't you just leave?!?" That phrase changed my life.  I realized that I was a free man and I didn't have to fight and die here.  I didn't have to go down with the ship.  She was stunned when in a later conversation I thanked her for her words that woke me up.

I have no children, though I have promised to take on my nephews if things get bad.  I was there when they took their first steps and spent a lot of my free time babysitting them so my sister could work to help make ends meet.  I've given a lot of money, food, and precious metals to my sister to help take care of them and prepare for their future no matter what may come.  I love those boys like they were my own.  Their dad is in the construction biz working for his dad and doesn't have a lot of skills or the ability to leave.  That and as my sister she never listens to me.  I warned her not to buy her house when she did, because I saw it was the top of the bubble but she did anyway.  She admits that my track record is good, but in her mind I'm wrong because she thinks it can't get that bad.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 00:26 | 251944 nuinut
nuinut's picture

NZ produces enough food to feed 15m, with a population of 4m.

Hydro, geothermal, tons of coal, tons of water, good climate.

While most Kiwis wish we were more like Aussie, they have real problems if trade slows up alright, with food and water.

NZ will have a big, and keen market there.

I am very grateful not to be in the Northern Hemisphere. 

All the best to everyone who is though; hope the conclusion of this fiat adventure is not as ugly as some predict. No way we are going to avoid some consequences though.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 01:40 | 251988 Shameful
Shameful's picture

I heard NZ passed a cap and tax scheme. Any idea how this will affect agg production? I know NZ is a major agg producer and exporter and I looked at them since it looked like I could get in there or Australia with my background and skill set. What is your experience down there and would you recommend looking at it?

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 06:09 | 252067 nuinut
nuinut's picture

Nah, nothing has been actually passed, just a lot of talk. Politicians here are the same as everywhere else. They will talk and talk till they see what the rest of the world is going to do.

There is a recession here too. (not that it's had much impact. Housing is still at its bubble highs, except for the waterfront, which was bid up the most anyway. J6P in NZ has got no idea what is going on on your side of the world. 'Yeah, the American house prices have come off their highs a little, but it's different here'.)


Wed, 03/03/2010 - 06:14 | 252070 nuinut
nuinut's picture

As to your other question, yes I would definitely look at it. 

Seems pretty easy to get in here, judging by the numbers of foreigners who have arrived here in the last 5 years or so. Its like the UN down at my kids school.

I think the influx is one factor supporting the housing prices still.

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 09:29 | 252128 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Excellent!  Like I said I looked at it but for some reason I thought they passed cap and tax which made me leery because of the resouces based economy.  Have to look you guys up.  Hopefully there will be room for one more hardworking, educated guy to sneak it :)

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 06:02 | 252064 delacroix
delacroix's picture


Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:25 | 251329 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Gosh, that sounds like one of those rhetorical questions. You must be pretty smart.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 23:06 | 251867 lawrence1
lawrence1's picture

Useful for thousands of years as a store of value and/or currency.  Other commodities  may well decrease in value as  world trade slows to a snail's pace.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:03 | 251295 ShankyS
ShankyS's picture

Well it is apparent the SPX no longer gives a flip what the dollar does. I guess it is gold's turn to be the dollar's bitch.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:59 | 251388 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Until gold flips the dollar over - then it's gonna hurt. Squeal like a pig, greenback!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 16:54 | 251487 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

gold SURGES like less than 1%.  *yawn*

what a SURGE..

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 19:07 | 251664 Meridian
Meridian's picture

Bates nobody cares that you don't like gold, but you repeat yourself ad naseum. Bates thinks a "like 1%" rise in gold isn't a surge. We got it, roger that, loud and clear, coming through. Now go out and enjoy that warm weather or inflate that "girlfriend" of yours again.

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:34 | 251538 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Master Bates, do you think there is a possibility you are wrong?

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 01:17 | 251974 Master Bates
Master Bates's picture

Yes, and I even say so repeatedly.  Yet, I never hear the same from the goldbugs, EVER.
It's always wow, gold went up ten dollars!  Next it'll be to 5000!

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 19:51 | 251712 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Replying to Shameful and MM, if it's worth anything (it's not) I have two homes outside of the US which are exactly my EOTWAWKI locations. Both are in SA, one is Colombia, the other is Uruguay. Both are hacienda's (farms) with plenty of land, and (relatively) peaceful self sustaining economies.

Now before the haters start going off on Colombia, let me tell you as somebody who does business in SA and has ownership there the drug trade has mostly moved to Mexico. Does it still exist? Sure. It is greatly reduced and is on the way down as Colombia is very pro market. People there want the same as people here, peace and a better life for their children.

My reasons for buying there is because I see an uptrend in their economies, the dollar is still relatively strong (2/1), Colombia especially is rich in commodities, Uruguay is the Switzerland of SA. Buying and owning anything is still done on a cash basis, the markets there are small and I feel like fortunes can be made with the right patience as foreign investment is still a trickle when compared to Asian markets. The women are stunning.

If you want more info on Colombia or Uruguay, you can go to to get a good feel for things or to look at land in Uruguay. Buena suerte!

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 01:51 | 251992 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Thanks for the advice I'll look into that. I do have some questions if you see this. My concern is employment of course. I have several degrees now but my education is in accounting and law and my job experience is in computer programming. Now accounting and law are heavily focused into the US (because I was/am a dumb kid ok) so are mostly worthless as an expat. But do you know if SA has a big enough IT industry to employ a significant amount of programmers? The work should mostly be the same as most computing languages are English based. I was looking Eastward because I see an abundance of programming work in places like Australia and Asia but have less exposure to what the market might be like in SA.

I'm totally open minded about where I end up. My criteria is reasonable safe so I'm not robbed and or murdered, and will afford me a chance to use my skill set to make a living. It would be a great irony to go to SA. I grew up in the SW and never learned Spanish, but learned a chunk of Mandarin and then go to SA :)

Wed, 03/03/2010 - 12:17 | 252356 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

We export metals out of Colombia and make trips down south at least 4-5 times per yr. The type of work you would be looking for would be found in Bogota, or Medellin as far as Colombia is concerned. Montevideo in Uruguay would be where you would look for accounting work. You of course would need to talk to an abagado (lawyer) to get a work permit, and show some means of support.

Bogota is a big city (8MM+-) the surrounding area can be very dangerous, stay where the locals stay, don't be a fool and you'll be fine. The coast Barranquilla, Santa Marta, and Cartegana are much safer but then again they are much smaller as well (1.5MM+-) Uruguay on the other hand is extremely safe, Montevideo, Punta Del Este is very nice but is touristy and not much industry other than tourism and is expensive.

Look at that much of the time you can find businesses for sale, or situations wanted. I almost bought an internet cafe in Medellin 3 yrs ago but net after expenses was $20k, not worth it for me. Of course wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants.-Epicurus

Tue, 03/02/2010 - 20:09 | 251720 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Don't mean to piss on the party, but has anyone noticed that gold has moved up with equities? What is going to happen when equities go back down (or is that not going to happen)?

Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part (long gold).

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