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Gold Surges On Spain Downgrade, Euro Crashes As End Of Fiat System Approaches
Fiat down, gold up. Any questions? Algos finally found where Europe is on googlemaps. Europe closing so US is isolated in its schizobubble for the rest of the day.
EUR killed:
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Dollar rally is simply stupendous.
Peter Schiff must be going broke with horrific losses on dollar shorts and asian stocks.
And exactly the wrong time, when he's trying to finance a campaign.
The losses on the dollar shorts are paper losses. I'm not selling any of my dollar shorts, and I suspect Peter isn't, either.
The US is still playing the consumption game , still using the dollar reserve to bleed the Europeans of buying power which is taking heat from both America and the Asian industrial Giants.
I expect massive capital walls going up over all of Europe to prevent this siege on even a idea of semi sound money.
Relations between us might get very frosty all of a sudden.
Peter Schiff would be worth listening to only if there wasn't any Marc Faber.
"I just refuse to accomodate to the market! That will show the market who's the boss!"
I just refuse to be pushed next to you into the cattle car.
Peter was heavy long Euro and European stocks for years. As far as I can tell he has probably done worse then the average market indices over the last 3 years even though he said housing was going down. He never shorted housing.
Peter doesn't realize it's a global credit system. He is in la-la land.
He was telling everyone to buy Asian stocks before the meltdown there, and Euro stocks, short the dollar, long gold and long gold stocks.
Basically, the only one to do even remotely well is long gold, the rest has tanked more then once.
Asian stocks w/dividends (they are producers with real growth in better currencies), gold miners (they are producers of real money) and physical gold and silver (real money) have been Peter's recommendations for the past couple of years.
He stays away from US stocks, bonds and pure currency plays, because they are manipulated over the short term with FED and govt. interference. He has been asked if he shorts Treasuries, and he has answered "no". He does think rates will rise and the dollar will go down with the rest of the fiat (fraudulent) currencies.
He was heavy Euro stocks, short the dollar also.... I know I talked to his clients.
They lost their shirt and their pants.
He is a moron.
Most of his clients I talked to did much worse than market averages... 60-70% down.
He doesn't talk now that he has clients in Euro stocks because they are taking a beating, just like he is not talking about his Asian stocks on TV... the only thing he talks about is gold.
I am not a Euro/Pac client, but I listen to what he has to say about the economy. He was right about the housing crash two years prior to it happening. His views along with Faber and Rogers on gold and silver have served me well. Plus, Peter has recomended some oil and gas MLPs in the past, one of which I own and have done quite well with.
Bash him all you want, if that's your thing. My view is he has made some pretty strong calls that were unpopular (and premature) at the time, but in the end he has been right most of the time.
The only thing he was right about was the housing crash, which he didn't serve his clients at all because he didn't short the housing market.
The rest he is playing along with everyone else except he still has clients in losing positions in Europe with no exit strategy. He has done worse then if someone told you to pick the S&P 500.
Rewriting history is not going to change anything. Everyone that bought his book "Crash Proof" in fact did crash.
He is no better then the "houses go up forever" crowd, the house he is selling is just a different type of house.
Then why am I up 50%? I bought Crash Proof, and all of his other books. I'm not a EuroPAC client, but I don't need to be to tell you that they invest in dividend producing stocks, mostly in Asia, with the intent of never selling. They just collect the dividends until something changes. Thus far, all the changes have been in their favor, except for this phony dollar rally.
If you love the dollar so much, I'd suggest you go buy some 30 year treasuries and hold to maturity.
Asian stocks took not one hit but two hits, sorry but I think you are smoking something.
"If you love the dollar so much, I'd suggest you go buy some 30 year treasuries and hold to maturity."
This is what someone says when their bet went the wrong way, which I bet yours did. I never once said I love the dollar, what are you smoking.
If you followed Peter's advice you are down depending when you bought, if you bought since April of 2009, you are probably up, as is everyone else.
You certainly didn't buy in 2006-2008 and are up 50%, not using Peter's advice. You could have bought the S&P500 and made 50% if you bought last April.
Peter is riding the same thing as everyone else, decoupling is a huge myth, matter of fact it's fact... look at Europe.
Yr looking at the whole picture from the back side.
The dollar is hard because of its de facto peg to crude oil. If oil 'breaks out' and prices rise further then the peg is in difficulty ... oops! An oil breakout means an economic meltdown in real time. Cannot happen! If it does the resulting demand destruction also destroys the oil price.
After a 'wound licking period', the price rises again to where the dollar peg is reestablished. Crude oil is making the dollar into a punishingly hard currency, consequently there is dollar preference and flight from other currencies, gold and derivatives.
The same thing happened during the 1930's with gold and sterling. Greece is the 21st century's Creditanstalt.
The transition from 'trash dollar' to hard currency is taking time and is not widely recognized which keeps derivatives in play - for a time longer. Every time oil prices break down under $80 a barrel the buck gets a bit harder.
The hard dollar is massively deflationary. I've been telling people since November of last year (when gold/dollar broke) here, there and everywhere to close out dollar short positions yesterday.
Peak oil is going to shit all over your theory.
Nevermind that there isn't the production to support our expenditures as monetized.
I believe the intent in long run to play natgas against crude in much the same way silver has been played against gold.
Mako/Mish, correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember seeing that Peter Schiff was a part of a hedge shorting sub-prime and the mortgage market separate from EuroPacific.
I am not Mish.
NO, Peter said he was not short the market or the housing market and if I remember correctly he doesn't short anything directly. I can tell you his clients were not setup that way for sure.
Peter believes in the decoupling myth. He has no idea how the global financial credit system works. The only thing he talks about now is gold because that is really the only one of his investments that has worked out.
Of course he is correct the US will collapse as will everyone that is connected to the credit system, he is wrong about why it will collapse. His decoupling theory is beyond stupid.
As you can see now Europe is decoupling alright, right into the ocean. When the US goes it all goes.
Look he is not the devil, he is just like the rest of them... "it's going up". When someone tells me he had all figured out then why did his clients take a beating?
Agreed on the natgas oil pairs trade theory, as with Gold and Silver.
Where does all this created money go? There are two answers. Too much money out there and funny things start happening in the markets.
They will trade more freely...one day.
Listen to everyone, make your own mind up.
I appreciate his macro views and on that he speaks truth. I don't follow everything he picks and am not a client.
You can piss on this comment all you want, but he will be proved right...one day. HA! Were the analysts who shorted Global Crossing or Nortel wrong? Yes and no.
Anyone who follows markets knows people who forecast a trend change are often early.
My question is - in 5 years, who is in better shape, Asia or the US? Vote with your $$$ accordingly.
PS - while the Dow may hit 30,000, what will a USD truly be worth?
OK, I've got a question: Let's say the Euro takes a face-slam into the pavement. Doesn't that make the $ once again very strong? Strong dollar = lower gold price in dollars.
That is, until hyperinflation sets in, then artificially high gold price, in dollars... n'est ce pas?
In your question, the dollar is only strong against the euro. It says nothing about its strength versus gold. If the dollar and the euro are both racing to the bottom, they're both weaker in gold terms, no matter who wins the race.
I am actually a Europac client, and they've done quite well for me. They've never recommended a single European stock to me, that's for sure.
I'm no financial guru like all you guys are around here, but most of the stocks in that portfolio are up-- many are way up. Right now things have definitely slowed down, but I'm still very happy with what they've done for me and I wish I'd sent them more money in the first place.
That said, I feel good having some of my money working outside the U.S.
I'll shut up now...
Peter's funds did not do as well in '08, but he more than made up for it in '09.I do not know of anyone calling it sooner, for longer than Schiff.
The man is a Genius.
If we could get about 50-60 of him, and Ron Pauls in the Gv't......it would sure be fun.
Talk about SHTF..LOL
Europe is a small part of what is presented for investment. And the European stock that are suggested are not EMU countires, and they are dividend paying stocks in very stable unsexy companies.
Just like Peter Schiff did not short housing he is NOT, I repeat NOT shorting the dollar. Buying gold is not the same thing as buying shorts. He does not short bad investment but goes long the opposite based on fundamentals.
The portfolio I see recommended is mostly Asia, gold (metal and mining), European dividend paying non EMU bluechips.
Peter cannot talk individual stocks or be too specific in talking about his strategy without a call from the SEC. Jim Rogers is the same way. When Jim is asked specific questions he has to generalize the answer.
The difference between right and wrong is timing
Yep.
GOLD BITCHES!!
I am Chumbawamba.
last I heard from Schiff, was that he's heavily positioned in gold, and mining stocks.
The last you heard him on TV that is what he said, but he has his clients still stuck in Euro stocks, short the dollar, long Asian stocks as well.
He just talks on TV about whatever is in his position that isn't tanking... gold. Mining stocks in general peaked in 2006 especially individual juniors, yeah a few have done ok but for the most part, it's dead. gold stocks took the same dip as everything else in 2007-2009.
I talked to a few of his clients last year that were down 70%, I am not joking.
He has no idea what he is talking about... he thinks it's just a US problem, he has no idea how the credit system works... he listened to his daddy too much. He's a moron.
Dude you are talking out of your ass. His clients were down right after the crash, just like everyone else that skin in the game.
Exactly.
Funny, you say I am talking out of my ass then you agree with me.
His clients were down more then the market indices, the ones I talked to 60-70%. He still has his clients on with the same bet.
- Short dollar
- Long gold
- Long gold stocks (sorry even this one has been a loser)
- Long Euro
- Long Euro Stocks
- Long Asian Stocks
If you think the US is going to collapse then you should be long buying a farm, some farm equipment, and guns.
He has no idea how the global credit system works, he thinks the US goes down and worldwide credit system just magically survives when everything is based on the USD being the reserve currency.
Wait till Peter finds out China is running the same system everyone else is... oh no really. He believed in this "decoupling" nonsense, he probably invented the nonsense. The only way there is decoupling is if all the worlds countries decouple and collapse into the ocean like Europe is doing. Once the US goes, it all goes. There is no alternate backup global credit system. END OF MESSAGE.
"If you think the US is going to collapse then you should be long buying a farm, some farm equipment, and guns"
Some of us are. When I buy ag commodities, I take delivery in five gallon pails, sealed with oxygen absorbers in mylar bags.
The problem is he believes in this decoupling myth. He has no idea how the system works, not a clue.
Anyone that believes in decoupling is in for a rude awakening. You would have been better just investing in Stock index funds, and he still has no exit strategy for his clients.
One trick pony, "I called the housing top". Ok, how much did you make from that call? Zero, nada, nothing, zip.
Actually, his main investment thesis has always been PMs and PM stocks. That being said, they won't be a safe haven when shit hits the fan, imo. I'm looking forward to adding gold at about 800.
Not true at all... commodities, pm, pm stocks, euro stocks, short dollar, asian stocks.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/SXuj9sc6cDI/AAAAAAAAFfk/lzLgjUQC7N...
Basically, his clients took several hits, multiple hits when asian stocks got hit, now the double whammo with long euro stocks and short gold strategy.
Most of the clients I saw lost much more than the average US stock index in 2008-2009.
Ok, I call bullshit. You have seen exactly ONE portfolio from a kid who bought at the top, bought very risky assets (and was told as much by his broker, who he ignored), and then complained and sent this shit to Mish, who then used it to launch a BS propaganda campaign against Schiff to get more people to invest with him. They went over this shit last summer, and Schiff's clients 97% agree that this is stupid bullshit.
You call BS, you are the BS, I saw multiple clients that were down over 70%. These were client from 2006-2007, down huge!!!!
Let me see investing in gold, energy, euro stocks, asian stocks.... they all took a freaking hit.
The only BS is you. This is fact, go look at the euro stock charts, go look at the asian stock charts, go look at the gold mining stocks, they were all getting wacked.
Let me see it's a huge conspiracy, I went out on every chart in the world and made them lose 50-80%.... yep, it's all a big conspiracy.
He crashed his clients probably worse then the average investor.
.
I don't need to know every jot and tittle of the issue here to be able to smell when somebody is (dishonestly) grinding a rather large ax.
Your lies and misinformation will win you no friends here, asswipe.
One a gold-hating troll, always a gold-hating troll.
"Because gold is honest money, it is disliked by dishonest men."
(Ron Paul)
I swear you stupid gold bugs lie worse then anyone in the world. I never said I hate the stuff, heck I don't hate chickenwire either. Gold not going to save you from the tanks, they didn't save anyone last time.
You know nothing of the global financial system, so someone like me has to point out the obvious to you trailer park trash.
Yeah listen to Ron Paul, go to a gold standard, financial system collapses the very next day. Sorry but you can still lend and borrow gold at a rate of compounding interest.
Sounds like you got Crashed by Peter Schiff's strategy that FAILED. Yeah you don't notice him talking about going short the dollar anymore or that he has clients in euro stocks, nope.
Mike Norman, is that you? Get over it dude.
Mike Norman, is that you? Get over it dude.
Get over what? I have no idea who that is.
I trade and barter primarily with those within a 10 miles radius of my house and my shop. Why should I care what happens in the rest of the fucking world?
Fuck you and your global financial system. I couldn't give a shit about it. I hope it implodes forcefully and finally, and takes out every mother loving trader and investment banker within a lightyear radius.
I am Chumbawamba.
Why is it "my system".
Again, sounds like someone on the losing end of the stick and wants to blame me. Don't worry it will take out billions this time.
BTW you don't need to own a bank to be a banker, all you have to do is lend to each with compounding interest attached and then you are the banker. Humans will never learn.
.
Oh, I see your point: Central banksters are not only indespensible, but they are central to society, and civilization itself would utterly collapse without them!
My contempt for you is now complete.
Boy you need to think outside the trailer.
Sure you can survive without them. You don't even need a central bank... all you nutbags have been lending and borrowing with each with compounding interest for 1000s of years... always ends in failure.
You are very confused trailer park trash individual.
Why is it your system? Because you're the fool defending it. Obviously you have some vested interest in keeping it going, whereas I see every reason for it to be torn down to its foundation (gold) and hauled off to the scrapheap of history.
I am Chumbawamba.
.
.
I concur.
(But
this
squeeze
is
making
it
hard
to
breathe.)
You don't read so well.
"Why is it your system?"
Oh I didn't design this system, all you nutbags and your parents and their parent, and their parents designed this system where you lend and borrow at a rate of compounding interest.
I only tell you the obvious, it will implode and billions will die.
Billions
Not without it getting confused enough first. Gotta keep the bullshit flowing.
Nobody goes home till they are either willing to forgive this bullshit or consigned to being powerless against it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bMM61Y5CEU
Which "last time" are you referring to? By my reckoning, the last time was Zimbabwe, where those who held gold got to eat, while everyone else starved or slaved to get a tenth of a gram each day.
The time before that? Argentina, where gold was used to trade at the height of civil unrest.
The time before that? Soviet Union, where no-one had anything, except for the Russian mob, which had gold. They flat out ruled the country for some 15-20 years after that, and arguably still do via Putin.
The time before that? Israeli hyperinflation of the early 80's. Merchants offered deep discounts to those who paid with gold and silver.
Are you getting the point here?
The last time was the 1927-1944, actually is was probably 1923-1944, and really it was 1923 to early 1950s for most of the world.
Those countries(SU,AG,etc) imploded because they were unable to expand their credit market any further, they never completely collapsed because the rest of the world had a functioning credit system. Heck, Japan imploded 20 years ago, their decline down will last probably 70-100 years if I were to guess.
The system has been hyperinflating for 66 years from $440B to $52.9T(2009), now it's collapsing. Good luck.
Sorry you are not going to feed 7 billion with gold, someone is going to have to go, why do you think you have a $200T global credit system if you can feed the world with gold?
People in India will be starving to death with gold in their pocket. System ran out of gold to support it self long ago buddy.
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Of course, you think gold makes the system go around.
Your supply of gold ran out a 100 years ago if not longer.
What a childish rant. And I thought I had problems......
You and JW....please conserve space. Please....
If the system ran out of gold to support itself, then how is it that people are going to starve to death with gold in their pockets?
You have no consistency of logic, just an air of ultimate defeatism that says "nothing will ever work again once the system collapses, so you might as well give up on humanity in general". I've seen your kind before. You stockpile food and guns that will never do anyone any good except for yourself. You have no ambition or plans for the future, other than to hunker down in some bunker somewhere and "survive". What you don't understand is that you might make it a few months like that, but before long, you will realize that you only really need one bullet.
Those with gold will have ALL of the worlds capital reallocated to them. Gold is infinitely divisible (but der ain't enuf, hurr). With a greater population and a greater degree of capital investment (and therefore worker productivity), the value of gold in terms of goods has skyrocketed over the past century. You just haven't seen it due to the insane use of fiat money. Just wait, you will see eventually, even if it is just to marvel as you look out of your cave one day to see a fleet of flying cars busily engaging in commerce. Commerce that YOU could have been a part of, but you were paralyzed by irrational fear.
The future is waiting for you, Mako. You can greet it with the power to shape it, or you can paint the walls of your bunker with your brains. It's up to you.
LOL. Did you try that LAST TIME gold crossed $800?
There's not going to be any for sale.
And take physical delivery of some of Leo's solar panels to recharge your batteries/play boardgames after dark.
Spot on Mako- I don't understand why people think a U.S. or fiat collapse will result in economics 101 outcomes.
The entire system would collapse and take half the liquidity in a heartbeat. I'm sorry if that upsets those taking their long gold emotional bias confirmations from paper gold.
Your economics training never taught you how to analyze situations as we are in.
Those who expect the game to play by the normal rules are the ones in for a big surprise.
You guys are still trying to figure out what hyperinflation is.
I am Chumbawamba.
You mean global monetary system, not CREDIT system.
Specifically securing 'credit' in a monetary system.
What we should WANT, is an American Credit System. Instead we have credit crunches in the British imperial monetary system that is international finance.
Things are going to behave very wacky when the real crisis hits. Very little is safe, and what might be considered safe, can be confiscated. Huge swings are possible. Dow 500, Dow 36,000. Both in the same year? Month? Who knows. When things get wacky, what we see currently, most people will long for.
There is no safe investment, debt and printing presses can alter everything. From hyperinflationary explosion, to hyperdeflation destruction. What good is a 20 dollar utility stock if the craziness of the market pushes it to 20 cents. You won't feel that is so safe. But compared to holding something else, it very well may be. How we define things and how we judge the value of things, can and will change very rapidly.
Which is why we should implement solutions now, not AFTER. They exist. LaRouche made the comment that all he needs is 72 hours to right the ship. He's right. Global glass/stegall, his four powers agreement is all you really need to get the ship righted. Then after those 72 hours you can work on the science, fusion, nasa, nuclear programs. Real infrastructure programs as well.
But the answers are out there. Just no one in power left or right wants to fix things the right way in 72 hours, because then they don't get paid. So the question again is....do you really want to risk everything? We all are. Even risking everything of everybody that has never put one dime into wall street directly. We're gambling with EVERYONE at this point. Odds are, everyone will lose. (or nearly everyone...and not everybody can be part of the 1/1000000 of 1 percent that will have a net benefit of a collapse)
Good luck, we're all going to need it.
I am a Euro Pac client.
Account opened 8/09.
Balance = +20%
Yeah from 08/09. Duh, everyone is up 20% from 08/09 unless you were short. He is riding the same wave as everyone else.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/SXuj9sc6cDI/AAAAAAAAFfk/lzLgjUQC7N...
Now look at that, that was before the huge sell off between 01-03/09.
He crashed his clients with everyone else, "Crash Proof" my ass.
A monkey could have thrown darts at a dartboard and made you 20% since 08/09, the point being he isn't crash proofing anything, nor could he.
I agree with your angry comments.
The test to my Euro Pac account will be when this meltup reverses.
I am not angry at all, I don't have money with the fool.
Yes, your test will come within time and that decoupling myth goes the way of the dinosaur. Sorry there is no separate Asian system, just like there is no separate European system.
What's the matter Mish, no one bothering with your blog now that ZH is ahead of everyone and is the place to be? Too bad, that's the nature of the web. Instead of taking out your frustrations on Pete, why don't you take your ball back home and play with your pet dog Prechter?
I am not Mish and the people that have talked to over the years know it.
I have no frustrations, what I said about Peter is fact.
Let me see unless up is down, and down is up. You can go ask his clients if you want, they might be able to give you a list of his recommendations. Good luck with all that.
I assure you he was recommending Euro Stocks, Asian stocks, commodities, pms, short the dollar basically.... all of them except maybe gold took a huge hit.
This is like talking about whether the sun rises in the east, it's a fact.
If it talks likes Mish, walks like Mish and whines like Mish it must be......
Facts, documented or anecdotes? Based on what timing? You take a lot for granted, I don't.
As for gold/silver mining shares, mine have been doing quite well since I started buying them in 2003. Time frame is everything and you can cherry pick whatever data you want to prove whatever you want in this casino of a market. Your obsession with Schiff is telling and it tells me you have an agenda which runs counter to mine and you should be faded, heavily. I advise others to do the same. But most here are pretty smart and I'm confident they'll see you for the interloper that you are.
Good luck with your campaign....well, not really.
Mish seems to have a obsession about wage restraint while he favours the continued ratio of debt capital to wages.
Will somebody tell that poor deluded fool that the massive productivity increase in the US economy was driven by debt growth which replaced wages.
This productivity growth was of course artificial as imported goods was registered as productivity and the mechanism used to soak up this excess was debt.
If he gave as much attention to private debt default as wages I might take more time to listen to him but I suspect he is more concerned about his portfolio then the health of the nation.
Maybe the destruction of his wealth will force the poor sob to go out and work for a living.
Cool. Like I said I don't care, call me Mish call me Obama.
Gold shares peaked in around 2006, juniors completely peaked in 2006 some of the majors later but basically peaked around 2007.
Without a functioning credit system it won't mean much in the future.
At least two of his clients have posted refutations of your assertions.
You are full of shit, Mish-lite.
And we have a winner!
It is very sad, however, to see a formerly prominent financial blogger reduced to trolling another site to peddle his sour grapes and spew his vitriol at those who refused to buy his deflationary tripe.
You can say whoever you might think I might be... I would think Mish might be pissed though. Funny, call me Mish for all I care. Good stuff.
As far as deflationary, well that would be a fact. Let me see you are the only person in the world that thinks there is too much money(ie credit). Wierd.
No wonder you read Peter books, he doesn't understand the credit market either. He thinks credit is actually increasing. Hahaha.
.
Idiot.
And troll.
But the gold posts always, ALWAYS bring out both, in spades.
It was bad enough when he trashed Schiff on the front page of his own blog while trolling for new customers. But to do it on another venue is rather déclassé, IMHO (which really is not all that humble).
No I have been telling facts about Schiff since I started posting out on goldismoney back in the day.
Trashing would mean I don't like the guy, he is ok I guess, but he did crash his clients that is fact.
Well, a false fact, but I guess that is still a sort of fact.
Two EuroPAC clients have called you out, and you just dismissed them. I guess the fact that they (and me too!) are making money doesn't jive with your world view. I guess you're right to just ignore it in that case. The cognitive dissonance might knock you out of your chair.
Maybe the private sector isn't seeing much credit (money), but the exploding government debt is making up for it. Plus, the "printing" continues unchecked.
I will agree on one thing, to a starving man a bag of rice trumps gold. Gold and silver are for optimists, brass and lead are for realists.
Too bad there's a law against the S&P dropping two days in a row or I'm sure we'd see a selloff there, too.
Market is as stable as the Devil's Dance Floor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSwaVvF7rdU
Gold more than makes up for the piddling Euro losses he might have on paper. He doesn't short anything, nor does he advise it, he is just long in other countries.
Why did you get 4 junks for this? Junk the euro
This can only end one way.
German Chancellor to stop in Madrid on his way to Lisbon
(her)
hairy pits tho
Hey, it IS Europe after all.
I think men who have a problem with hairy pits are just homophobic. We American men can't deal with hair on women, too much like getting up close and personal with our best (male) friend. :>)
I think you are disgustingly off your rocker
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Of course not! </Seinfeld >
Nothing kills the mood like hacking up a hairball.
Just sayin'.
hairy pits tho
Do not consume beverage while reading WaterWings reply above!
TOU-FOOKIN-CHE WaterWings, thanks for the laugh. ;>]
Probably to ask "Can we be of any assistance?" LOL
Kann ich Ihnen helfen?
Only some of the German I remember from my lessons a few years ago. There's more where that came from!
Ich bin Chumbawamba.
Noooo! I want to buy more. Go down damn you!
You could still buy the mining stocks (unless you're completely out of the fiat system and all-in the physical metals).
Not the end of the beginning. This is the beginning of the end.
SUSPICION TOWARD A CURRENCY, ONCE AWAKENED, DEVELOPS INSOMNIA. - James Dines.
+10 on the avatar.
Actually, your two avatars would look good together.
Kids look like HarryWanger.
fap fap fap fap fap
fap fap fap fap fap
fap fap fap fap fap
Two words: Gold still cheap.
Make that three words.
+10
I like the fresh high as much as the next person, but
Gold is still cheap.
Paper gold is an illusion. It's part of the path of least resistance trade. If europe falls, the speculative unwind will cause a paper gold collapse. Your metal will barter but the paper tie won't survive an HF/TBTF/Sovereign implosion.
Ditto for all asset classes in the deflation that follows the unwind and inevitable collapse. I'm amused that many seem to think shiny metals are immune from loss of value when the most important things in a local economy become food and potable water.
When everything falls apart, food, water and shelter will be all that count, and even then that might not be enough. Until then, gold, silver and probably the companies that produce them are the best bet.
"I'm amused that many seem to think shiny metals are immune from loss of value"
You mean "loss of price".
Wall Street does not give toss about value. The probably do not even know how to spell it.
Guns and ammunition.
Everything is NOT going to fall the fuck apart like that!
Look, gdit the water and lights are still on in Argentina, and they stayed mostly on in Beirut.
JFC you guys w/ your Madmax fantasies.
Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.
The lights weren't on after Rome fell. The Romans lamented the fact that their blenders no longer worked after the loss of electricity. Their margaritas just weren't the same.
I am Chumbawamba.
This. When a hegemonic power fails spectacularly, all bets are off. This has only happened a few times in history, and each time has signaled a sea change. Rome is only the most recent example. Others include Greece and Babylon. Perhaps there were others, lost to the sands of time.
On the stone was written, "I am Ozymandius, King of Kings. Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair." Nothing besides remained.
Bonus points for getting in a little P. Shelley
The global credit system is still functioning.... once the US goes it will all go.
Japan for instance has been sucking off the world's demand for 20 years.
So the US is the 'safest' currency?
hahahahahaha
how messed up is the world economic situation
hahahahahaha
Laugh all you like, but if you have a sizeable chunk of wealth and need to move it somewhere, what else besides the USD is there? What are the alternatives in the real world?
I dunno, let me call my good buddy Paulson and see if he knows of any place.
Uhhhhhhh.
Uhhhhhhh....wait, uh, no, that's not it.
Uhhhhhhh...uhhhhhhhhhh....hmmm.
Oh, ok, I have an answer:
NACHOS BITCHES!!
I am Chumbawamba.
A lot of people selling euros apparently think gold is an alternative.
Remember how the Dollar bears were screaming for YEARS how Europe is so much better off? LOL. Where are these guys now?
probably waiting on the debt ratings downgrades for individual states and then....the US
anyone who does not get physical gold and silver now deserves to live in athens.
how about i go there with my bag of gold coins and live it large with some busty greek ladies.
Paper wealth burns. The joystick jocks and paper pumpers like Wanger are going down for the big sleep, and all their stolen paper illusory wealth can't save them. It couldn't happen to nicer guys.
NO GUTS NO GLORY:
http://williambanzai7.blogspot.com/2010/04/bail-or-die.html
The occurence of something I predicted on here many months ago is apporaching be it in days months or year. What happens when Gold surges as the global markets and economies crash?
Well we are seeing the beginning rumblings of this because it is only logical to understand that as more awaken to gold being the only real money aside from commodities in existence that the paper value of stocks is moot. I must say I did however expect gold to crack as the markets fell for the next few years but I suppose this is may the only logical way to force Bernanke to understand how pointless printing paper money without any productive economic occurences and defict slashing will eventually be disregarded as the Free Market Terminator never stops looking for Sarah Connor ( Fair value between supply and demand). On a long enough timeline Federal games are simply temporary distortions.
Gold is now the official "Canary in the Coal Mine" and this two-day spike arm-in-arm with the USD is important. The migration of sovereign contagion to the west is inevitable so the C$ is where to put your dough (but Au and Ag are better).
shit, patriotic machines. can dow, gold, and dollar all go up at the same time? i thought they had to throw stocks off a cliff eventually !
Over-reacting folks. FIAT $ will live, like Cockroaches
for decades to come. The Euro may whither, but the
Drachma will be reborn. When FIAT $ ends, civilization....
at least as we know it......ends.
I guess civilization began in 1971.
What happened before that, you ask?
WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT.
Fiat has existed since Man came up with compounding interest. Thousands of years ago.
TMosley you are very confused individual.
I can create fiat anytime I want.
You are both an idiot AND a liar!
Please give us just one example of fiat currency from "thousands" of years ago. But let me help you out, and answer in advance: You CAN'T!
The first paper fiat currency was invented in medieval China --- an experiment which lasted for over 100 years, but which ended in spectacular failure and public disgust, by the way,and which sent them back to gold and silver for hundreds of years to follow. Starting to sound familiar?
Sure, before that rulers often debased their precious metal coinage, but that was not the same thing as fiat currency (NOT money --- there is no such thing as "fiat money" --- it is an oxymoron).
I can creat fiat any time I want. I go to my neighbor lend him my gold coin for 10% compounding interest per year, do that with my 9 other neighbors. Package all the contracts up into a bundle, sell the bundle for 15 gold coins. I just created 5 gold coins of credit where none existed before... of course, once that system collapses, it's not going to be pretty just like the system you have now.
I can create credit anytime I want, as long as I have another willing party.
Systems have been blowing up since civilization start, go open up a history book. All the previous systems were gold backed, they all collapsed.
You read too many nutbag books like Schiff, systems have been blowing up due to a failed Math model for centuries and centuries. Nothing different about this one.
Yes, thank you for at least admitting that fractional reserve banking and fractionally-backed currency is a fraud, always will be a fraud, and always results in collapse.
Funny how there were no currency collapses, nor business cycles as we know them today, before the rise of the twin frauds of fractional reserve banking and fiat currency.
Your historical knowledge, by the way, is as shallow and uninformed as your financial knowledge is conventional and weak.
All lending is fractional.
I lend you a gold coin attach compounding interest, no reserve. You can't collect on what you don't loan out. Sorry. So you want to lend out your gold coin attach interest to it, but still have the gold coin in your pocket? Strange, good luck with all that.
Fractional reseve is not a factor, all you have to do to start the road to doom is borrow and lend at compounding interest.
There is a profound difference between lending real money that one has clear title to and full ownership of, and lending out fictional money created out of thin air by a fraudulent "fractional reserve" banking system.
Fractional Reserve = Ponzi scheme.
The all end the same way. It doesn't matter if it exist or you make it up. Eventually will not be able to expand and it will collapse. It's easy Math. You could base it on grains of sand, eventually you will run out of sand and rocks on the Earth.
All credit is created out of thin air, if not where is it stored?
I gave you an example. Systems have been collapsing for 1000s of years. Lending and borrowing at compounding interest will do it every time.
You may be correct, but that was not the issue under discussion, which was the fraudulent, coercive and manipulative nature of fiat currency, and the financial depredations its mandated use by corrupt governments inflicts on the average man. Whether all credit-based systems collapse or not is beside the point --- certainly, ALL fiat currencies regimes collapse in ruin as well, as ours is and will also.
"fraudulent"
The fraud is the equation, it doesn't matter what you use as the medium of exchange, if you use compounding interest on it... you get 60-80 years or about a generation. It's pure Math. I don't care if you use sea shells or dirt or gold, it will collapse.
All dirt based monetary systems will collaspe, all gold based monetary systems will collapse, all silver based monetary systems will collapse, etc. They all collapse they are all "fraudulent" because people will start lending and borrowing on the fraud.
My God, you can't be that stupid, can you?
"You can't collect what you didn't loan out"? Ever hear of a little thing called, I don't know, CAPITAL INVESTMENT? Invest a million in a railroad or a factory, railroad/factory produces a good and sells it, gets money, and loan gets paid back from the cash flow.
Where did you get this shit? Hogwarts?
Fiat currency was abandoned as a barbarous relic by the founders, who had witnessed what it had done to France.
Might want to read up on the history of fiat currency before casting stones. You look like a moron due to your ignorance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency
False. The use of credit was not only used it was encouraged.
See constitution where it authorizes the United States to take on credit.
"To borrow money on the credit of the United States;"
Sorry buddy, you read way too many nut books. The founders had no idea the equation would bust them a big one. That is why the banking system of the US imploded several times about every 60-80 years.
Matter of fact all those soliders fighting in that war got crap paper for their work.
You really should stop digging the hole of discredit that you are in already.
The Founding Fathers mandated the use of gold and silver as money due to the repeated (and inevitable) disasters of fiat currency issuance by both the various colonies over the prior 100+ years, but more importantly, due to the devaluation and collapse of the Continental Dollar script, of which you may have heard, which was despised and reviled by the colonists during the War of Independence, as it sank to near zero value in the space of less than six years.
The American colonists were intimately familiar with fiat currency, which had been inflicted upon them by their colonial governments as a supposed remedy to the shortage of coins resulting from the mercantilist policies of the UK at that time, which prohibited the exportation of gold and silver coins to the colonies. However, the "coin shortage" in the end was as much a result of the fiat issuances as it was their justification, as the constantly depreciating fiat currencies drove specie (PM coins) into hiding, via Gresham's Law --- "bad money drives out good". But note that Gresham's Law ONLY applies to non-free-market situations in which legal tender laws FORCE citizens to use the bad money; without such tyrannical laws, good money would drive out the bad.
I have no idea what you are talking about... you are talking like someone that has a 2nd grade education.
"The Founding Fathers mandated the use of gold and silver as money"
So? It still collapsed, collapsed several times. People still lend and borrow at a rate of compounding interest, system was unable to expand, it collapsed. The founders not only went to a credit system, they actually encouraged the system. You had a gold standard in 1929, everyone went to the bank there was more outstanding credit then gold... system collapsed.
Still going to collapse this time... eventually people will die. I can create fiat any time I want as long as I have someone on the other side.
Had a gold or silver standard since before the Roman Empire was even thought of, they all collapse. Pure Math.
All credit is created out of thin air, end of story, you read too many nutbag books...it has effected your brain material.
Look this has been entertaining but it is hard to have a conversion with someone that believes all the prior gold and silver standard systems did not collapse due to the lack of expansion. Or is the Roman empire still standing? They all collapsed, every single one of them, they will always collapse as long as people lend and borrow at a rate of compounding interest.
Your ability to argue rationally is lacking, and I feel sorry for you for it.
So what you are arguing, if my struggles to understand you are correct, is that a credit/debt-based financial system is bad, is that it? If so, you will get no argument from me! I have always failed to grasp why credit/debt is SO necessary to the functioning of our economy ---- certainly, many societies throughout history have functioned just fine with minimal levels of each. I am no economic PhD, but my suspicion is that this idea that "credit/debt is an absolute necessity for modern society" is just another self-serving lie sold to us by parasitic banksters.
I would say it's a lie.
"SO necessary to the functioning of our economy"
Who said it is necessary, well at this point it is because you have 7 billion people and you can't feed 7 billion people without a credit system at this point, once you remove the credit system, the unfunded liabilities will have to go... anywhere from 1-4 billion is my guess. If you don't want to use it after that, yes, you don't need it but you are only going to get what you need and not what you want. The amish do a good job at not living without credit.
The fraud is attaching compounding interest to your medium exchange, which would require humans to have unlimited power to not collapse.... which is why they all collapse.
http://worlddarkestdays.blogspot.com/
I got to go. Good luck and everything, when this system finally collapses their will be people starving that have gold in their pocket.
"Credit" doesn't make food appear on the table. Work does. Capital investment makes more food appear on the table. An overextended credit system has caused capital to be used for consumption instead of production. Ending that credit system will only cause capital to return to productive uses.
Read this ALL THE WAY THROUGH, and maybe, HOPEFULLY, you will understand: http://freedom-school.com/money/how-an-economy-grows.pdf
Before I repost someone elses thoughts on the value of gold post collapse, I just want to say I own some gold and silver. I am not anti-gold, but I am not a goldbug. Here are some reasons why:
My main issue is that Gold has no USE – besides trading.
The problems with gold are too many to make it a smart choice in my book. Let’s review a few.
1. Who’s scale are you going to trust? Providing both seller and buyer has a scale, and they don’t read the same? If you assume an “Average” of the two, then the seller of goods will be motivated to mess with his scale to make sure it’s showing too low. Thereby lowering the actual value of your gold.
2. What about quality, are you expecting everyone to carry around sets to verify the gold level in the gold you produce? Or should they just take your word for its purity? What if my tests show differently than yours, same problem as weight above.
3. If you are just going to use the sellers word as your guide, then I’m pretty sure I can find someone willing to sell you a bridge or two.
4. The worse the situation, the less valuable gold will be, if there is a massive population die off, scrap gold will be found on all but every dead body and in every home that has been abandoned or the occupants die. Take a 500 house suburb that gets hit with the “superflu” and everyone dies for instance. I don’t even want to guess how many pounds of gold could be “found” by a looter there. And thus, gold will be less valuable because the amount per capita increases, and again, there is no USE for it. If I can find gold by stopping by the home of a deceased person, why would I trade my useable good for something I can find by just looking around?
5. Gold will not be Consumed, and as such will remain in constant supply while items that are hard to produce will increase in value as they become more scarce through wear and tear and consumption, therefore, gold will lose value compared to the items that you may wish to buy with it. Again this is going to be directly proportional to the severity of the situation. In a total collapse, even after recovery, goods will have value, whereas gold will be harder to use
6. Since people like me won’t accept gold, the intrinsic value of the gold will be lower, same as any other item, the more people that are like me, the less gold will be worth in a trade. Gold has increased in value because we still have a world of abundance, where useless items can carry an intrinsic value.
7. I will never accept gold in a trade since it has no usefulness. If I was one that did accept it, the problem is now mine to find another person that wants gold in trade for something I can use. So your proposition is that I should trade something I can use for something useless that has additional problems in re-trading. Bad deal for me all around.
8. I can’t turn gold into anything that can be useful, therefore I can’t improve my situation with it unless I can find someone that wants gold instead of a useful item (see above). Therefore, I’d be more likely to trade a block of Iron than a block of gold, at least the iron can be shaped into a useful item. Gold Plow’s, axes and saws are pretty hard to work with.
9. You assume that you’ll reach a point where gold is again used as a tradable good, (Past phase 2 and 3) I am not at all certain that I will live that long, or not run out of other things first.
Personally, I would feel like a right moron if I sat with my food supplies running out but had a nice bag of gold under my bed that no one wanted to trade me food for. Regardless if that is 1 month after SHTF or 10 years after. The problem remains the same. I can’t eat gold, and neither can anyone else.
10. Even if I DO reach phase 4 alive and well, I will need food, or if I have a surplus at that time, can sell food for gold at that time should I for some reason want it. At no point will I have to accept being fleeced because I simply NEED gold. I will however risk being fleeced if I have gold but need food or goods. Of course, if I have no food but goods, the problem is the same. Unless those goods can be used to produce food. Such as seed, Ammo, fishing tackles etc.
11. Ergo, with the same amount of available funds, it makes sense to procure useable goods that prolong survivability as opposed to buying gold and make the assumption that I have enough of everything else to reach the point you call phase 4 and can trade gold for something I need.
12. Given the assumption that you and I have the same amount of money to start with, You buy partially gold, and I’ll buy extra food instead. it therefore stands to reason that I’ll have food left when you are out, and will need to trade me your gold for my food, and we know what your chance is of that transaction taking place. Therefore, I can let you starve to death, (go back to point 4 – where I pick up your now abandoned gold) and still have enough food to increase my chance of reaching phase 4.
13. This means that you're gambling your survival on knowing that you have everything you need to make it through phase 2 and 3, but unless you can be sure how long that will last, you are risking ending up with not enough goods to reach 4. I on the other hand don't assume that i know how long that will take, therefore i choose goods that will help me reach that point.
13. Gold is a product of a functioning economy supporting it’s value. Those that claim not buying gold means being “stuck inside the box” need to count the walls around them… I submit that they’re the ones stuck inside the box of normal economic functioning societies. Where currency, whether that is printed money or useless items, are commonly accepted as having a value.
Once again I say gold is for optimists.
I appreciate you laying out your case at such length, but the facts are that you are trying to "reinvent the wheel" here to fit your pre-existing biases, whereas that wheel has been invented over and over countless times throughout history, without gold ever being found "worthless" even once, except perhaps in a lifeboat.
The problem with your scenario is that you are implicitly assuming a "Mad Max" world in which ALL trade and ALL exchange has broken down and is non-existent. That may in fact happen, but I would not count on it, short of a major asteroid impact or superdisease that wipes out 99.99% of humanity. In ANY other scenario, trade and commerice of some sort WILL be taking place --- it is simply in our nature, and essential to our existence as social beings --- and SOMTHING will be needed as a means of exchange and measure of value. And again, thousands of years of history have proven that the most effective such means of exchange were the metals gold, silver and copper, for a variety of factors.
Unless you are seriously proposing that ALL of humanity is going back to a caveman-like, hunting-gathering existence, then your fears about the "uselessness" of gold and silver are not only moot, but dangerously self-deceiving.