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Gold Takes Off On German Fin Min Comments
Did the LBMA Au plunge enforcement team all take a bathroom break at the same time? The catalyst - dollar dumping accelerates as euro surges on German Finance Minister's latest words (not to be confused with his words from an hour ago which contradicted the latest batch), who said that Germany is ready to make it's contribution to the Greek aid facility. A few hundred parliamentarians may beg to differ. The Euro has surged from 1.3290 to 1.3360 in a manner of minutes. Session highs at 1.3375 may be taken out. We feel so sorry for all FX traders who are still alive ever since the Greek episode began. The main observation: gold no longer goes down when USD surges, but surges when dollar dumps.
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Speaking of "busted", Velobabe posted a nice photo of (presumably) herself a few days ago.
:)
I am Chumbawamba.
According to Spiegel, the SPD would be "ready to contribute to a reasonable solution". (Steinmeier).
This means they accept the law for aiding Greece after a little opposition hocus pocus.
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/0,1518,690771,00.html (German)
I don't think the SPD has the guts to say no.
Sorry T_T
SPD! Another pack of scumbags!
No difference to your own. In Germany we have no choice except voting small parties just to create some anarchy and show the big ones how much we hate them. Nobody loves the euro, we don't accept the EU, we must. But most people are stupid and don't care...until TSHTF
Gold, like everthing else, is manipulated.
Any change we could get an "ignore user" button? I don't mind trolls, but boring, simplistic, unimaginative trolls really aren't worth spending as much as a second on.
At least change your tune a little bit, or find different vectors of attack. You come across like some bitter 16-year old.
I wasn't implying you were gay, I didn't want to exclude anyone.
Why do you keep insisting that gold is 30% higher than it was 30 years ago? In inflation adjusted dollars the $850 price it hit in 1979 would be somewhere around $300 based on my cipherin'. I suspect that you are a troll just trying to get a rise out of us, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and explain to you that most of the gold supporters on here believe that the US dollar will likely vaporize, and that when it does gold will retain enough value that it will serve as a good medium of exchange with whatever replaces the dollar. When the shit hits the fan I think those who have some gold will be better off than those sitting on a pile of worthless greenbacks. I might be wrong but I'm not willing to gamble that I am so I have some gold in my portfolio. Now if you want to engage in an intelligent debate on these matters I'm more than happy to oblige you, but if you continue in the tone you have taken so far I will ignore you.
Bought my first 5oz. of silver the other day. It's much more addictive then I expected, there's just something about the weight of the coin and that high pitched ping you get when you flick the coin in the air.
Getting another 5oz. with my next paycheque.
I just hope the price goes lower so this poor student can buy more on the cheap!
That's real wealth my friend. You can feel it in the coin. There's a reason why it's been used as money for the last couple thousand years.
Your paper is good for ass wipe and is better then two ply! That's all it's going to be good for soon enough.
I like you more than the last gold troll.
It's called being a student jackass. A student with 5 years of university under his belt and, wait for it, no debt! Now that's a real investment.
Both Obama and Bush are scumbags, they're just part of the system, I'm not deluded enough to think there's a difference between the two parties in the one party system.
As someone said, to each there own. I'm not stupid enough to be holding paper dollars in the kind of upcoming environment. With gold I know the little wealth I can save up is safe and I don't have to be constantly managing a portfolio and deal with the ups and downs of the market.
Enjoy trolling on ZH I'm sure the regulars around here will show you a good time.
So 'bonehead' hey you called yourself Frankenstein, you left it wide open.. What if gold goes to 500? What are you going to do then? Buy more and hold?
At least you don't believe in the 2 party system, you're not a total jackass.
However how you think that's a scam and gold is not and can't be controlled as well is BEYOND ME.
If gold goes to $500 then that would mean a major deflationary episode... and the prices of most things will be dropping too, so you dont really lose. again, if you had two brain cells to rub together you might be able to figure it out.
You are too blinded by your pre-conceived notions to learn from history.
Not necessarily.
Did the Nasdaq drop 66% during a period of massive deflation? It was never worth 5000. Houses were never worth what they were selling for, and gold probably isn't worth what it is selling for.
Was oil worth 147 a barrel? Did it drop to a fraction of that without there being 75% deflation? Gold can do the same.
Any asset can drop to FAIR VALUE without deflation. Just because gold is 1150 or whatever, does not make it fair value.
I don't know what the fair value is, exactly, but price and value are two different things.
Technically, it's going in the 850-950 range someday. When it breaks it's long term wedge is anybody's guess, but it will.
Price does not equal value. That's the only thing that I'm trying to say here.
Idiot. Gold is money. How could it be worth less than it's selling for? How could it be worth more? If it takes 1,150+/- Federal Reserve Notes (not dollars, mind you, because there's a BIG DIFFERENCE...read the fucking Constitution) to buy one ounce of gold (one standard unit of FRN vs. one standard unit of gold currency) then that would tell me that the FRN is a piece of shit compared to gold, and that people are willing to trade one thousand one hundred and fifty of this unit of trade for that.
Your concepts of "value" and "worth" are meaningless as you apply them.
Specifically, in this instance, your notion of "worth" is the FRN, which is a promissary note backed by the GDP of our nation. That GDP is encumbered by trillions of dollars of debts and liabilities. For all intents and purposes it's a dead asset, but most people (least of which you, with emphasis on "least") still haven't figured it out. Does that mean the FRN has value? Yes, because people still believe it does. But the critical element here is when that credibility vanishes and people seek out other forms of money and wealth.
A troll? A shill? It doesn't matter, because either way you're an idiot.
I am Chumbawamba.
Yes, if gold went to 500 I would buy all I could get. The question is, what will you do if FRNs drop by 50 percent? Will you hold?
Obviously you're broke if you have to wait for your 'next paycheck...
At least s/he has a job.
The pm people are responding to a steadfast policy of the central bankers to debauch the currency. It seems reasonable to me.
I doubt if he even owns paper. probably trolling from his bedroom in his parents house...
hes prob peeping on his 14 y/o sister in the shower while his mom works the local trucks stop.
Now that was funny!
You know what else is addicting and has a high pitched "ping".
Blasting my golfball with a titanium taylormade driver off of a tee. I love that ping.
to mr troll:
Gold and silver has been a store of value for thousands of years. All paper currencies through the ages have eventually reached their intrinsic value..zero.
Same will happen with the Dollar and the Euro. When there's nothing of real value backing the currency it will inflate out of control sooner or later.
My first post after trolling for months.
Thank you Tyler and staff for a very informative site!
I think you meant "scrolling".
Did you happen to post at a site called FFYR? If you did, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
Of course, keep the focus on one of the side shows and keep the spot light of the center ring - the USA.
As I stated before. When I find an article specifically on gold i go there and talk smack to half wits. It's always the same argument, read history, it's real money, you are a child, the historical price doesn't matter, etc, etc, etc. I've got plenty of books on Mises, Fiat Currency, The Creature from Jekyll Island, etc. Thanks though and don't forget you can use gold to buy stuff in Zimbabwe. WTF.
Gold is manipulated just like everything else but if you need a blankie do your thing. Just do me a favor and hang around. I can't wait to laugh in your face while your ass is going broke on your gold positions.
You might think you come across all clever and intelligent. Buying a few books means lack shit if you lack the capacity to understand them. Go on, educate us on Rothbard and Mises, please, since you're such an expert.
I don't think you fool anyone but yourself.
I don't think anything nor am I on here to make a grade. I'm on here simply to get a rise of idiots that put all their faith in another manipulated medium. It's really funny to me that's what you think I'm doing. It's funny I'm 16 and have no job. Actually I'm 36 and I've made 300k this year so far. BFD. If I'm telling the truth do you think I care what you people say about me or my intelligence or?
I'm on here to poke fun at people I think are misguided. That's all.
Yeah sure, whatever, internet tough guy.
Yipper,
Why do you need to laugh in anyone's face or poke fun? Why spend your time in this manner?
It (rapidly) inflates the ego and other ....er......um......short comings.
We don't see very many women engaging in this behaviour, do we? It's tied up with many other inadequacies this person feels. He's actually being quite honest, he's poking his stick in the bees nest because he can and because it riles up the bees. It brings great attention to him and it engages his need for self importance and it helps him feel superior to those he is provoking.
Extremely infantile and if he is really 36 as he says he is, it seems he stopped maturing emotionally and mentally around the age of 11 or 12 or possibly even younger. We see this type of attention seeking behaviour in abused children and it is a manifestation of self destructive tendencies. I suppose this behaviour is better than roaming the streets attacking women or children to fill the need to take control, which is what most abused children lack, the sense of self control and the ability to protect oneself.
" I've made 300k this year so far"
you're either lying or you've got a sore arse.
Or he works for the SEC and all the porn is now blocked....giving him nothing to do
Excellent, so you admit that you are here only to troll.
Can we ban this guy now?
And with that yipcarl has shot his wad and is now resting comfortably.
Ok hot carl... You're smarter than George Soros, Frank Paulson, Greenlight Capital, Jim Rogers, Charlie Munger/ Warren Buffet, Pimco, the Chinese, and Russians, and several other lesser known people (Schiff, Sprott, oldest banks in Switzerland et al). So if you're soooo smart and successful, why are you posting on zerohedge? Don't you have to be at the Queen's Birthday party?
Wait, her Birthday was yesterday, and she beat the shit out of you with a sock full of gold soverigns!? huh... that sucks dude. She's 87 or something.
Gold, Bitch.
LOL. what an asshole. LOL. Are you going to be here Sargent in a few months. I particularly want to laugh in your face. Are you a Sargent in the military that you joined because Osama bombed the WTC? LOLOLOL>
It's from Cryptonomicon, douche. And I was/am an officer, so you can call me asshole SIR!
36, huh? I bet you're single.
Boy you guys get anything right? Wrong AGAIN! Married.
I'm really getting a good laugh.
Your wife is to blame. Does she even know you're trolling? For shame Carl, come clean before its too late.
Give her our sympathy.
Here's another argument that the old MB would use.
Soros' fund has 474 million in gold, out of 25 billion, or less than two percent.
If he thought gold was going to rise, he'd own more than 2% of his portfolio in it.
If the supply was there, sure.
Dumb ass.
I am Chumbawamba.
You freaking idiot...you can't GO BROKE holding gold.
It's a REAL asset, not a PAPER asset.
You can go broke with stocks, bonds, cash, and all other PAPER CLAIMS. You CANNOT go broke holding gold.
There's no leverage in REALITY, ok?
People think gold is a "position"? LOL. It's a stack of bars or coins in a lockbox somewhere.
Gold is a profoundly awful form of money. First you get all kinds of games on its perception of value ("IMF's going to SELL SELL SELL!" or "There be titanium bars in them thar vaults!" or "You can't physically collect the gold you thought you owned, because we don't have it.") that inflate or deflate its value with press releases or rumors. If you own gold in paper form, this is what you're plagued with. If you own gold in physical form, now you have to worry about storage and liquidity--you won't be popping down to the local store to buy a six-pack with a bar of gold and you won't be likely to melt it into your own coin, because no one is going to want to think about verifying it every time they transact with it. (Is it real? Is it the correct weight? etc.)
Its a good store of value or wealth (if you can hide it well enough), but money?
Hardly.
Gold is for bitches.
Tungsten. Argh, matey!
Wow? Someone else with a brain I thought I was alone, fine with being alone, but I guess I'm not.
You're not alone.
Plenty of people can't afford Gold.
That's why God made Silver!
Get plenty of Franklin halves and Mercury dimes...
Hey gold bugs you talk about me? Are you reading your coherts posts?
This chick can't afford gold, the other says he like the feel of it pinging in his hand, another guy says you can buy bread in Zimbabwe? LOLOLOLOL
So then STATE AN ALTERNATIVE, douche!
STATE IT.
He can't. He does not have one.
It just takes a while to compose. :)
Actually, I do have one. Stop reading here if you just want the bluepill.
Change the commodity to a virtual one with a very simple connection to the real world (not a market basket of different commodities, just one), get rid of the centralized debt+interest+secrecy creation of it via central banking and fractional reserve systems and give every unique person a limited amount of individual credit from this system. Scale the amount of individual credit according to the population. Transactions that create and transfer this money are public. Privacy comes from transactions that create cash (yes, print your own money) from any earned money (never from your credit.) Get rid of taxation systems by replacing them with social credit systems scaled for each community, get rid of politicians by replacing elections and voting with crowd-sourced budgeting for localized needs. Community needs that everyone agrees on get discounts and obvious graft only gets funded from the people interested enough to toss their share of the credit at it. Repeat process for insurance by reserving individual credit into pools of coverage.
Get rid of equity games (short selling, insider trading, winning the stock market lottery, etc) by making equity permanent: if you invest anything, you get a % of future dividends until the company goes bust should the company pay any dividends (risk is up front, not in the future.) Don't like what a company is doing? Take some of your individual credit and "protest" it against the firm--everyone with equity in that firm gets a message and a corresponding decline in their share of equity. Its like burning a dollar bill, but multiplying across millions of people, you can have a real corporate death penalty as a weapon the people hold.
Only individual credit can be invested or protested--so everyone instead of a minority of people have incentive to become investors. A poor community in an inner city can decide to capitalize a new business without any banker's permission. If they screw it up, well, they start over again with more credit in the future.
Credit here is a fundamental right, and its not something dependent on some other company's rating of how well you pay larger and larger amounts of bills on time and carrying a balance. It's simply access to a little bit of capital, multiplied across millions of people who must cooperate together to create the world they want.
Oh yes, I didn't say what the "commodity" unit was, it was "time." So while everyone else is debating whether a $20 is worth that pizza or that ounce of gold is worth the nice HD video camera--I'll just consider the pizza to be worth about 3 hours labor/materials of my time to do it myself and perhaps 250 hours of labor/materials to everyone involved in manufacturing it.
I think Ben Franklin was right, but he only used the wrong letter, "time is money" to me is really more interesting when you consider "time as money." Now I always have to explain this. "Value time" (used as money) is not the same as "your time." Think of the difference between you getting $20 from a lawyer and $20 from a painter. You'd never think that once you got the $20 from the lawyer or painter that you could go back and get $20 of "lawyering" or painting just because you hold a $20 they gave you. Now change the units: The lawyer gives you 20 minutes of value and the painter gives you 20 minutes of value. "Value money" doesn't mean you get to come back to the person and ask them for that amount of time in labor as in bartering--you've already received the value encoded in the symbol of a payment of 20 minutes "value time"--you can spend it anywhere, and now you're no longer doing barter, you're using real money. And now that its a universal commodity (not a dollar or franc or pound or lira), you can trade it with anyone else in the world (no FOREX/exchange rates needed, time is time is time.)
Gold bugs like to say that the money supply is limited by the amount of gold in the world, well, I know absolutely for everyone, the amount of time we all have is even more limited, because you can't mine it anywhere. Yet, we all have equal access to it, more so than gold, which is not distributed across the world equally--we've been beating ourselves up and warring over it for centuries trying to use gold for money, or some other piece of paper with only perceived value. Make money it a real synthetic scarcity with auditable transparency and you've got an alternative to paper money manufactured by governments/central banks or gold. Governments can't put their citizens into slavery should they decide to auction trillions of dollars in bonds to fund their government spending, only the citizens can decide to spend their own credit. Business cycles should be reduced in frequency because there won't be any debt+interest bubbles to blow--its credit money, not debt money.
Given a knowledge of some rules, any society can implement it. Any society implementing the same rules (kind of like a super Bretton Woods) can be said to be using equivalent forms of money.
Right now, if you believe only gold is money, you must be utterly miserable with not really being able to use it in daily life. We left the gold standard because we couldn't create enough reliable liquidity to "get stuff done."
Right now, if you believe fiat money with fractional reserve banking/debt systems is "good enough," you'll always be combating the inflation and business cycles of misery where your money is worth less and less the longer you save it, simply because the system is inherently unstable. More debt and more interest always demands the creation of more and more money or more bankruptcy and default where "the house always wins." Yes, your bankers own and operate the house, and have so for quite a long time now.
Interesting idea, about time. If only is was free from corruption like the gold standard.
It's called GLD.
Really?
Uh, no. I would give the Founding Fathers a little more credit than that.
You have a utopian veneer, which isn't a bad thing; to be an idealist. But you haven't addressed how we avoid corruption and counterfeiting. My personal belief system is programmed to hoist the black flag and cut throats whenever I hear socialist promises because they either know they are lying or need to read up on the failure of good intentions in the 20th century. The former is the evil that must be cut out from the human race.
But please, we always enjoy an array of thoughts here.
I like it when we have arrays of thoughts--we're all learning from them.
For corruption: if all transactions in the system are fed to the world in RSS, cryptographically signed (or at least message digested where the prior hash is chained into the next transaction), you have a system where there are no "hidden" transactions. Likewise, the counterfeiting is addressed by tying the creation of cash into this same transaction stream. We already have serial numbers on bills now, but we never think to try look them up and do space/time constraints (e.g. how could bill #600051123 have been checked by one person and then another 700 miles apart within a span of 5 minutes?) Depositing cash might become a kind of ugly game of chicken, but you would be able to tell if a serial is invalid quickly. Right now, the only game for detecting counterfeiting is our ability to print rare fancy bits of paper. The corruption is obviously there, hence the "Audit the Fed" movement, but politically no one wants to look behind the curtain to see how putrid the facility making the sausage is we've been eating. I'm not saying that we can make it impossible for corruption/counterfeiting--because we can't, but we can certainly mitigate the risks.
The gold standard is corruptible because we'll always argue about the value of a chunk of it. If you ask me to paint your house for 1 hour, I'll tell you to pound sand because it might take me 20 hours of my "actual time" to do it, and I would like to be be paid accordingly. "Mininum wage" is now value time=actual time. If you're earning less value time than actual time, you're either really inefficient, incorrectly bid the work (eat that cost) or being exploited. If a Honduran can make you a two pairs of socks every 5 minutes, shouldn't the price of those socks be at least 5 minutes instead of pennies per hour? "time profit" is what you can earn performing work for another where you can in turn, use it to buy goods/services from another. Efficient farmers would be paid like rockstars here, because you can divide out your costs into your production, they would essentially be turning sunlight into money--if they're good. Corruption of time money is harder to do, because I'll always know roughly how much something is worth in terms of labor. Now when there is scarcity of resources, I don't expect that this world would be "some utopia where unicorns piss out clean water for us to drink", if clean water gets scarce, yes, I expect that price to go up, even if its "priced in time."
Founding Fathers did get it right in some places for a while without gold, before the revolution:
Adam Smith wrote of the Pennsylvania currency in his famed 1776 work The Wealth of Nations:
Naturally the Currency Acts put an end to that. But then we never took a "long view" of why we had so many crises (which the Austrians love to point out, for every boom period there's always a bust). If you must use gold to back your money, you inevitably get gamed by other countries paying more "fiat" to others playing the arbitrage game. Eventually your vaults empty and you have a liquidity crisis or war. If you play with a synthetic commodity, like time, you can't empty the vaults of time forever, you can only affect short-term liquidity while credit recharges. Since all transactions are transparent, you can't have as many surprises like bond traders whacking nation-states--the value of the money always stays the same everywhere and there isn't any exponential interest-monster to feed anyway.
The "anti-socialist" thoughts you have are good. We too often get someone declaring "a chicken for everyone's pot!" without any way to make that happen except through some organized, obfuscated theft by kicking the can down the road with bonds (invented by Italian city-states to fight wars). I don't think that we can depend on any individual, or political party to "command" government or economics toward the needs of individuals or societies--they must do it for themselves within a framework. I define how new money is created and cooperated within its defined limitations, I cannot define how it is to be used (for libraries, police, fire, roads, etc... that's up to the community to cooperate between all its individuals to budget its limited amount of social capital, for they best know their needs.) Like those who like gold, gold "enforces" the type of money, if it isn't gold, it isn't gold. My idea of money is "if its created via the same rules, its equivalent" and it doesn't have to be a physical piece of matter--now we get flexibility to apply the same rules globally for everyone. We don't have secret meetings to set interest rates where insiders get chances to game the system. If a new rule is to start, everyone is going to know about it before it starts. The rest of the systems are intended to be designed to give everyone a chance to balance their needs vs. wants without any form of debt slavery. Culturally, I want loans (debt+interest) in this new system to be something we consider barbaric, like slavery. It's only a "New World Order" if you're not allowed to directly participate in the creation of it. We kind of got it "right" with the federal/state/local governments dividing powers, we just never had the technology to communicate and coordinate until today, nor the metaphors for "what money is" that aren't about social debt, taxation-as-public-theft or reliance on gold or some other physical resource.
I realized early that the idea might be considered "utopian", but you can still have serious, and profound screw-ups with this idea-- a society that manages their credit poorly will live in squalor compared to a society that manages their social credit well for their own infrastructure, job creation, etc. The amount of "credit" is very limited per-person, because without any incentive to "do work" or better yourself, you'll become little more than a spoiled child who gets anything they desire. Because you know its limited, you're going to value it more, and you're going to apply it towards helping yourself earn more or helping another. So I'm definitely optimistic about that.
More problems with your thesis:
The gold standard is corruptible because we'll always argue about the value of a chunk of it. If you ask me to paint your house for 1 hour, I'll tell you to pound sand because it might take me 20 hours of my "actual time" to do it, and I would like to be be paid accordingly.
You're trying to create a system where the value of exchange is "fair" for all parties involved. This is an impossible task. Fairness is in the mind of the transactees. One person might well be able to paint a house in an hour, while with someone else it might take 20. I know this from personal experience. We hire people off craigslist all the time to do various house chores, from lawn mowing to painting. We've had people who worked diligently and capably, and others who were dreadful. Each got paid according to pre-negotiated terms. In every case, a trade of our goods and money (mostly goods) for their time and labor occured. The transactions were fair. We didn't cheat anyone out of their time and labor and no one got from us what we didn't feel was worth the goods and money we paid them.
You cannot mandate value. Value is what two people of free will determine between themselves.
As for your example of paper money used in colonial Pennsylvania in lieu of hard currency:
[It advanced] to private people at interest, upon [land as collateral], paper bills of credit.
In other words, the paper currency they issued was backed by land. I don't know if you tried to minimize that part of the description intentionally, but it's a critical component. Paper currency always has to be backed by something, whether it be physical goods or "buying power" (which would merely be a human perception of value, but value nonetheless).
I am Chumbawamba.
oh yeah, what if i built a time machine? j/k
don't have time to read right now, but thx for putting something together unlike dbagkarl
:) I thought about that--I figured out that a time machine still can't defeat the transparency of the public transaction stream that used a cryptographically secure message digest chain. If you took a time machine to the future, brought back printed 'cash' to the past, it would still be invalid cash, because the transactions hadn't yet occurred in the public transactions and everyone would consider your cash "funny money" without value.
The Blue Pill?
ROTFL.
Do you think that your take on Real Bills Doctrine that you've articulated here is novel? It's ancient.
I've suggested it myself a zillion times.
Real Bills Doctrine still seems to be a "debt+interest" system which doesn't address the expansion/contraction of the money supply from banker crazes/bankruptcies--and it doesn't specify a single commodity of assets to value. That's still a banker's game.
No, that's not what RBD is at all. All bills are REAL bills. Not credit, not funny money. Everything must tie to something that can discharge within 90 days.
Banks can only discount and issue against real goods...that is the rule. There is no inflation nor debt+interest.
Right, that's what we need, an infinite number of entities printing worthless paper.
Who EXACTLY is going to exchange goods for this "self created credit"? I know I wouldn't. I'd never get paid back (with actual goods).
We left the gold standard because the government spent more dollars than it had gold. It's not that there was't enough gold, they just consumed too much capital!
You paperbugs are really something. Gold can't be printed off forever, and as such, it represents actual input into society. With gold, you never run out of savings, because things are always exchanged for other things, with gold as the medium. With paper--ANY FORM of paper, someone will counterfeit it, and more will be consumed than was created, leading to the death of the society.
Read this comic book. It should be at a level that even the most blockheaded paperbug can understand it.
http://freedom-school.com/money/how-...nomy-grows.pdf
I'm far from being a "paper bug" and you can't have an infinite number of entities issuing anything--every individual credit account is unique to a person. You can't issue any credit payments until you're "trusted" via some form of endorsements from other people involved with the system. [That is, you can't create 5000 anonymous identities and farm the system for credit.] You can't issue "worthless paper" if your transaction won't post to the public stream that everyone uses to audit the system. That is, if you don't have the balance in your account, you can't print it or send it. Counterfeiting will always exist but its much easier to detect a "fake" if your verification is tied to an auditable transaction stream instead of a fancy piece of paper and you never have to worry about counterfeits if you never accept any paper. It's your choice.
Its the other party that decides whether or not they wish to give you the goods for your money, the idea is the system provides a way for everyone to determine whether you have the money or not. The system of payments will require you to escrow your credit into the public transaction stream: e.g.
Your credit: 5 hours.
You want to buy an espresso pot for 1 hour.
You post a "pending payment" of 1 hour to the person who is selling you the pot. Now your credit is 4 hours, with 1 hour queued for someone else's acceptance. You can't post 5 hours as a payment to someone else, you don't have it, you only have 4.
The person selling you the pot can see that you've posted the payment. They accept the payment and send you the pot. If they decide they don't want to send you the pot, they can refuse the payment and return it to your account. Now you've got 5 hours back. If they do nothing, the payment returns to your account after some number of days. If they sent you the pot without accepting the payment, well, that was dumb of them.
Once the other person "accepts" the payment, that is added to the transaction stream and now the market understands that you've got 4 hours credit, something for it, and the other person now has +1 hours of money. There are ways to try to game the system, but with the public transaction stream and a kind of "open source" governance, we can see when and how we're being played, unlike the current system where we know we're being played (well, some of us) but we're not allowed to know how we're being played.
Right now, we live in a society where the supposed "transaction stream" must be kept secret or "we'll have a run on the banks" or some other calamity--the reasoning why "Auditing the Fed" will never happen. It will never happen because it cannot be allowed to happen or everyone will understand why people are poor and governments are made bankrupt--by following the transactions manipulated by those at the top of the money-creation hierarchy.
I'll have to take the Able, Baker, Charlie comic and come back to it later (on the blog.) But initially, charging "interest" for fish is obviously hyperinflationary when everyone's that capital building their own nets to catch more. At least, until there's no more reason to loan out your net, when everyone else owns one and you can no longer earn any interest from your capital--now you're fishing just as hard as everyone else. Or in this case, its immediately obvious when no one wants to take any more of your loans because they don't need them (they're sustainable) or can't afford the interest (they're unable to earn enough money to repay). Desert island economies don't need "debt+interest" systems because it is that ridiculous and we only kind of get away with it in larger economies because it takes longer for the propagation of debt+interest to become unsustainable or undesirable--usually seen in the form of recessions/depressions.
You propose a system with unending needless complexity that can easily be ruined by a little bit of hacking/financial chicanery.
Gold works. It always has worked. It always will work (until someone figures out how to increase the supply with little or no labor).
Also, you will want to actually read more than three pages of the comic book before posting a criticism. Charging interest is most certainly not hyperinflationary. To honestly beleive such an absurdity shows that you don't have the ability to think far enough ahead to create a complex system that works.
Honestly, what is wrong with using gold for money, except that you can't print it endlessly? there is always enough of it, prices just go down, and they do so in line with the amount of savings in the system (meaning each person gets fair compensation for their savings). Your system allows for no savings, unless you have implicit trust that any given individual will alwyas be able to make good on their credit, which is asinine. Further, an individual that issues credit can only repay it in trade, so credit issued by Joe-Bob can only be repaid by, say, lawnmower repair. The system is WORSE THAN BARTER because of this. Who wants to hold coupons for future lawnmower repair? Sure, they could trade them for other things that they want, but that's hard as well. It doesn't allow a high degree of specialization. If you have, say, a biochemist doing some work, you can't just ask him for an hour of science.
Even worse, what happens when Joe-Bob gets sick, or dies? Everyone holding his money is now holding worthless paper. If they had gotten gold for their goods, they would still have a claim on labor from the market.
Your system is great if you are a technologically savvy despotic government, but it's pretty shitty for anyone else.
Using fish as money in a small closed economy surrounded by an ocean is like using the leaves from trees as money. Of course its hyperinflationary. Not to mention that fish don't satisfy a few of the qualities of durability, divisibility, consistency and scarcity (building a better net or a better trap decreases its scarcity with technology). These are the things that we mostly love about gold, however, gold has always worked until it didn't--and that most often happened when governments outside of your control manipulated it without your consent with financial rules that needed to be changed to "fix" the problems (like Nixon 1971). Using gold for money is like financial calvin ball-- the rules are the rules until they're not the rules anymore.
The credit in this system isn't an IOU for future labor, it's created at the time of purchase for labor, and its absolutely limited by formula. So, its both scarce and a solution to barter. You're not being paid in future lawnmower repair, you're being paid in time, which could be used for future lawnmower repair, or anything else. Job-bob gave you an hours worth of time because he wanted to buy your fishing net. The system said Joe-bob had a hours worth available to give, he put it in escrow, you accepted it, because you were selling him something that you valued. Now you own the hour of value time, but its not Joe-bob's time. It's just value time. If Joe-bob gave you a $20 check, you deposited it in the bank and clears, do you ever get to come back to Joe-bob to try and get the "value?" Of course not, you already got it because the bank let you know in your account balance.
And when did I ever say that the government would run this? :)
I love how you have time to write long winded responces, but you can't even read a damn comic book.
You deserve whatever you get.
I've still have read it, I won't write about it here, but I will write about it, even if the author of the "damn comic book" isn't getting out of jail until 2016, it's still useful for teaching about the qualities of money--it just doesn't propose any new solutions, but it great for criticizing the government and Fed for their actions with the existing system.
Irwin is a victim of his beliefs. Also, props to his son, Peter. I hope he wins his Senate seat this November. Just because.
Edit: Also, remember, it's my "moral right" to decide how I use my time, to borrow a term of expression from the "damn comic book" you favor.
The person selling you the pot can see that you've posted the payment. They accept the payment and send you the pot. If they decide they don't want to send you the pot, they can refuse the payment and return it to your account. Now you've got 5 hours back. If they do nothing, the payment returns to your account after some number of days. If they sent you the pot without accepting the payment, well, that was dumb of them.
Ok, so what happens if the guy takes the credit but doesn't send the pot? Does the buyer have to release the payment once he gets the pot so the seller can have that credit? What if the buyer takes the pot but doesn't release the credit?
Look, mental exercises like these are great, because it's always good to dream, but your idea, as technologically appealing as it seems to this geek's mind, is not workable, and it will ultimately suffer from the vulnerabilities that I discuss in another response to you. It's too complex and requires technology that must be maintained in perpetuity. Who will maintain the system? Do we trust them to do so incorruptibly? Who watches them? Who watches the watchers?
Gold does not need a battery. It doesn't need OS upgrades. It doesn't suffer from bugs. It works because it's a lifeless piece of metal that doesn't change its make-up no matter what you do to it, short of bombarding it with enough energy to cause either fusion or fission, in which case it will simply be rendered into some other element (of possibly lesser or greater value), but good luck producing that sort of energy on a dime. Perhaps when we do have that capability (somewhere far off into the future) then your system might work (assuming the technological capability of generating enough energy to alchemize lead into gold also implies the ability to create fault tolerant data processing networks that just work no matter what).
I am Chumbawamba.
The buyer has already escrowed the payment to the seller. If the seller who takes the credit but doesn't send the pot, well, you can log an "issue" with that transactionas a ding on their trust. That issue isn't something that seller can remove unless its settled with the buyer. Someone who accumulates lots of issues is going to rapidly find the market has no trust for their transactions--the market sees that they've screwed 50 unique buyers. Like wise, if someone does nothing but screw sellers by logging issues, they're equally as visible as someone a seller may not even consider accepting a payment from. Eventually we all get to a point where we either trust no one and have a hard economic stop or we stop screwing each other to get on with life. At the other extreme those who don't play by the other "golden rule" will soon find themselves living on a desert island of their own design, unable to use any of their own credit to do anything.
Every financial system we've made is a system that must be maintained in perpetuity--the only system that doesn't need maintenance is barter and we all know how limiting that is. Yes, gold doesn't need OS upgrades or suffer from bugs, but gold still has to be continuously watched (in a vault) and measured (is it pure? or is it a veneered titanium slug?) and tracked (is this gold really unique gold or did someone play an inventory game with some forklifts?) and the only way you can create more of it is to mine it. [Soo, your economy is geographically screwed because you have no gold mines and your nation-state also has no gold, therefore you cannot have an economy? How is that fair?] We're already doing these complex games of technology in perpetuity with gold. So where is the benefit of systematically doing the accounting and provenance of "matter" at every transaction when you can do the same thing with a model and never worry about sudden price changes because of luck or disaster? With gold you can never guarantee its supply being a constant like you can with a model. Someone can discover a new source of gold and crash prices. A particularly large gold shipment could be lost at sea causing some panics (it's happened.) Likewise, since gold is also useful in decorative, medical industrial uses, you have a slow decline in the amount usable gold for money as time goes on. If we use gold as money, wouldn't that mean that anyone with a gold mine should pay its miners with gold, what is the gold mine owner paid with? More gold because he mined more gold? Hardly--the mine owner wants more labor. More things. More power. If you go back to getting loans for gold with interest, now you're back to the same systems problem of auditing the leverage and the business cycles created from the demand to repay principal+interest.
With a model, everyone can simultaneously "check the vault" and ensure that everyone's wealth is intact. With a model that doesn't define "debt" for loans to accomplish larger capital projects but instead, a system of cooperation for public goods/services (with social capital from communities of cooperating individuals) or private business (with private capital invested from individuals) In a system like this, everyone are the watchers and the watchers of the watchers are everyone as well. What we never had before was any ability to easily say: "HEY! You're trying to screw us all, STOP." and follow it up with action (We stop using the corrupt system and start using the trusted system.) We never sought to redefine a system that would support more transparency and better culture than infinite GDP growth and consumerism. We never do that because we invariably have "too much to lose" in the old system. We're all housewives habitually beaten by our husbands by a system we still "love."
I'll be looking for your follow-ups. :)
Blah blah blah, but no time to read a simple allegorical comic book.
All in due time Mr. Mosley, all in due time.
Interesting theory, I shall need to ponder this some more. But for now:
Other way around, you left the gold standard because you printed more claims to physical than you actually held. That, "stuff" that needed "reliable liquidity" was the Vietnam War. So my question is this: At what point do the problems with money become about the nature of the commodity being used to represent value and not about government and its spending habits?
Also, how do you quantify the value of an individual's time? The lawyer's time and the painters time are not worth the same amount to the same people at every moment. How do you impute the exchange of lawyer-time for painter-time? It seems to me that the worth of a person's time can only ever be valued at the moment of purchase of whatever good the time was expended in creating.
The use of the "physical" commodity is what creates the problem--when a country ties their symbolic-paper-money to the physical commodity, its always vulnerable to other nation-states "revaluing" gold and causing it to migrate away from an regional economic system (e.g. someone redeems the paper for the metal in the cheaper nation-state and deposits the metal somewhere else for a profit, depleting the reserves). For example, in 1797 the French stopped money-printing like crazy and went to a metallic system, in turn, the Bank of England had to suspend payments in specie to fund the Britain's involvement in the French Revolution (otherwise all the gold was going to France to fund their reformed economy and the war), which in turn starved the New York banks of gold to use for America's 1796 land speculation bubble.
I get that question about equating different people's "time" all the time. :) The money denominated in time is not an IOU from a person, its simply a given amount of time encoded into the money. Do you value a $100 bill from a lawyer differently than a $100 bill from the painter? You don't, but the lawyer is going to definitely charge you more time (money) for their work than the painter.
In this sense, "minimum wage" is actual elapsed time = value time. E.g. If you did a simple hour of labor, the minimum wage you should earn is one hour. However, if you're a particularly bad painter of a house, (and most of us aren't professional painters) it might take you 28 hours to paint your house. If you hire a painter, you should expect to pay at least some amount like 30 hours of "value time" (because he's doing you a solid and the wife will stop nagging) even though his "elapsed time" of labor may only be 16 hours because he already has the equipment and skills.
A lawyer gets to charge even more--because the lawyer has a more definitive skill and experience which you'll rarely be able to do so on your own (you're not going to go through law school yourself to DIY). So what we end up with is a kind of knowledge of the value of an individual's time by their price per hour. The lawyer can charge a premium for "an hour's of lawyering" (which could be 20x or 40x elapsed time), it's whatever the market will bear), nothing in this system ever says that everyone's time is equal, because we all know its not. When a really good lawyer earns 40h for a 30 minute consult, that lawyer can easily hire the painter for his McMansion for a fresh coat of paint. When the lawyer pays the painter 40h, the painter already "holds the value" of 40h, its not an IOU of labor-barter, the money was already created by whoever paid the lawyer to begin with.
The worth of a seller's time comes from the advantage of exchange to the buyer: the division of labor is priced by the efficiency gained to the buyer. A maid cleans your house for 3 hours-- you are at least paying that maid 3 hours because the maid "saved" you the task of 3 hours of housecleaning. A mechanic fixes your car--you may be paying 10 hours because the mechanic has the skills/parts/tools already to do it for you within 1-2 hours where it would take you at least 10 hours to DIY (if you could do it at all). Now that's just the pricing of "exclusive" resources. Look at what happens when you're sharing a resource like a teacher.
A teacher teaches a 90 minute class. Let's say that the teacher has a classroom that'll hold 40 students. Depending on how desirable the teacher and the content is, the teacher could charge every student exactly 90 minutes and earn 36h from one class. Or, the teacher could charge the minimum of 2.25 minutes per student. If this teacher is Tony Robbins, the charge could even be 180 minutes per student. Always remember that "value time" is related too but not the same as "elapsed time." There is a lot of flexibility in pricing here. If the price of a seminar is less than the average per person/elapsed time--you're getting a deal, however, its borderline "advertising" you're paying for. If you're being paid for your attention you're now being lobbied or proposed to. :)
Another shared resource that can be priced in "time" is travel fare. If the taxi will take you 10 miles and you can do the walk at a rate of 30 minutes per mile, taking the taxi would save you a lot of time-- it might take you 6 minutes to go 10 miles via taxi (an exclusive resource) costing you 5 hours of value time. Change the taxi to a bus (a shared resource), and now you're only paying 12 minutes or so depending on how busy (avg. passengers during the period) the system is. If the system is "very busy" you can still have "rush hour fares" that are more expensive because, as usual, higher demand = higher prices.
So in the end, nothing changes here except for the unit of measurement: the value of an individual's labor is based on the demand and benefits to the purchaser. These prices I examined above are still just simple prices on labor because we haven't taken into account the costs of resources of consumables like paints, cleaning supplies and fuel, or the costs of parts used to fix your car, etc. So in the end, even with "time as money," lawyers and rock-star teachers like Tony Robbins will still be expensive. Maids still do the cleaning for you because you're too busy to DIY and paid accordingly for their convenience, trust and reliability. The mechanic still fixes your car and drives one nicer than you own. And taxis will always cost you more than the bus.
But the elegance of it is the prices are the same everywhere, because its all denominated in time.
So in other words the currency unit is irrelevant. Ok, fine, we pick a currency unit out of the hat ("time" works just as well as any other), but we still need to address the structural problems with your system of currency.
I am Chumbawamba.
I an ideal world, sure, your concept has merit (and it's not unique, so don't go patting yourself on the back for some clever thinking).
The question is: who writes the software? More importantly, who runs the servers? There is always a single point of attack when technology is involved. In this case, you'd have to spend decades coming up with fault tolerant, tamper-proof technology before you could even begin implementing such a system. Sure, we have some of that technology now in the form of public key encryption, etc. But much more work needs to be done.
There are also flaws in your thinking. So using the painter and lawyer analogy, if I hire some guy to come paint my fence--something basically anyone who is physically competent can do--and he earns 20 time-value-units, he can then take that to a lawyer--someone who spent years studying the complexities and vagaries of the law and probably lots of her own time-value-units to acquire that knowledge--and trade the exact same amount of time-value-units for his mediocre services? You obviously didn't take ego into account. Nor the value of labor.
Lastly, the reason gold and silver are money and have been used by money throughout the ages is because it has been an evolutionary process. The human ecology over thousands of years selected gold and silver for money because both those elements have certain and specific qualities that make them suitable for use as money. Above all, they are simple: they are simply chemical elements in pure form. It doesn't get any simpler than that. Your concept requires untold man hours of work to not only create and administer but also to constantly maintain, and if some disaster strikes (whatever it may be) parts of the system or the entire system itself can be compromised, hampered, or destroyed entirely, whereas you can take gold or silver, blast it to smithereens, and it would still be gold or silver.
Lastly, if your concept was workable, truly workable, it would have already been adopted by humans. And in fact, it has: it's called barter, but without all the fancy data processing and technology. Sure, it doesn't solve the problem of a universal currency unit, but that's why we have gold and silver.
Keep it simple, stupid.
I am Chumbawamba.
Right now, I'm working on the development of the model. The model defines what the money is, anyone can implement the model and run the servers. Since the transactions are public and signed, anyone can validate that the server is running the model. Fraud is detected by evaluating the model: was more money created than the model allows for? Then the server is running a fraud on the market. Does the server state that there are 5000 identities in a town of 2000 people? That's a server running a fraud on the market.
The painter and lawyer charge always charge different rates for labor--they have different skillsets to provide and demands from the market. The painter might earn 3 hours/hour and the lawyer might earn 30 hours/hour. The painter still has to work 10 hours "actual" time to earn enough to pay a lawyer for an hour of "actual" time because of skill or ego. This is the biggest misconception everyone has: that everyone's time is equal in value. When it is money, it is equal. When it is price, it is not. This is why is isn't barter--you're not trading painting for laywering, you're trading time for painting or lawyering.
As for keeping it simple, that's what I'm all about--by throwing everything we've been layering over finance over centuries and starting over from scratch. Trying to fix the current systems adopted by humans almost always has a problem similar to Microsoft Windows: everyone wants it to be backward compatible with everything else we've invented to solve financial problems and not too easy to understand--because there's always a way to make profit from obscurity and inequality.
The problem with using gold and silver is you can't re-start an economy without it. With a model and people who agree to use it, you can bootstrap an economy anywhere in the universe. If the United States wanted to try and go back to bimetalism, you first have the problem of transitioning back from fiat money to metal. Metal is really inconvenient to store/move so you'd instantly be back to a form of paper-money or electronic transactions that represent the metal. Now you still have the problem of "auditing the vaults" for gold and any financial system that has inflated the paper representing the gold is going to work as hard as Crazy Eddie to manipulate the auditor's perception of the gold inventory. If you're a small economy, you'll be plagued by distortions in the money supply leaving/entering your market. If too much leaves, you have a liquidity crisis, if too much enters, you've got inflation. If you're a really small economy, you already have the problem that you have no gold or silver to use to begin in.
When you use a model to represent your money with a public transaction stream, everyone in the market can simultaneously "audit the vault" and detect system fraud the instant it violates the model. In this sense, the provision of the servers that implement the model are a public good (and not a quasi-corporation that needs to make some profit or facilitate government spending) that must be administered. Since its a public transaction stream that everyone can archive and the model simulated, whenever fraud is detected, its possible to checkpoint the economy before the point the fraud began and resume on a new "trusted" server, maintaining the majority of everyone's state (this would mean many, federated servers serving many regions, not unlike banks today). Privacy and anonymity as usual comes from the use of cash. We already have super complicated systems today, we have just never questioned their reasonings ab initio and considered changing them, because its extremely hard to change something everyone is dependent on unless you can demonstrate a compelling benefit.
You can't buy a 6-pack with a bar of gold, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of owning gold, now wouldn't it?
You can, however, buy the store, the worker's salary for a year, and a few nights with each of their wives for a small bar of gold.
A small denomination of silver might buy you your six-pack, since that seems to be all you aspire to in life.
You'll have to be a little more clear for us gold idiots.
What is your take on the future of debt based fiat currency? The system relies on perpetual debt growth. Do you understand the exponential function? What end game do you see here?
Please explain how we are going to lose our shirts in gold. Back up your position with something intelligent.
He won't address this post because he can't. He won't address any post that requires him to argue his position because he can't do it.
I know, I know....I shouldn't feed the trolls. This guy makes Bates look like a genius.
stupid question admittedly, but if you've got a few lbs of Credit Suisse Au in 1 and 10 troy
oz, do you still need Silver? All answers appreciated.
Silver has more upside than gold right now based on historical norms. Do some looking on historical silver gold ratio. Silver is more volatile, has an industrial use, and is destroyed as it's used in certain industrial applications (silver nitrate in laboratory work). Also there's alot of info on demand vs production capacity, though I'm not an expert in that area, silver is currently under explored and under produced (for the industrial demand alone, not to include investment demand).
IMHO silver has potential for larger gains and, please excuse me Carl, "paying" with gold can be inconvenient if it ever comes down to that.
not stupid at all. always diversify.
A view from Europe:
Be very cautious-gold bugs or not: everything
the German Finance minister, Mr Scháuble, déclares
or represents, as I suppose this statement
was made from Washington, is immediately
stumped over by "Mutti Merkel" who this
afternoon around 16:00 European time,
came out to say that Germany's aid is conditioned
to changes in the EU. The average German
is not too happy with the min 8.5 bln the
German taxpayer has to fork out, and Angela
is very preoccupied by the latest polling regarding
the forthcoming NRW elections, as they show
the current government coalation would lose
majoirty in the German Bundesrat ( Senate ).
So do not expect any clarity from Germany before
9 th of May or have Bernankenstein send over
a printing machine
Didn't I just say on the GS says short Euro thread to FADE the squid's PR? Like fuckin clockwork...
Again, who cares how many FRNs an oz of gold fetches? The FRN is a piece of garbage.
We're staring the complete collapse of a MAJOR world transactional currency in the face, the #1 component of the DXY, and the #2 in EVERY currency basket and people are shitting on gold or fretting over the "price" figure on it?
JFC, the Euro could well go to zero in front of our very eyes just like the ruble did or any of a dozen "pesos" over the last just 20 years. Currencies collapse - it happens. They're paper confidence schemes by definition.
Might as well argue over how many angels can dance on a krugerrand.
Nobody who stockpiles any tradable real commodity will get any beef from me...pick your poison and go with it.
And that's the rub...there aren't many gold bashers who also hold other, physical, tradable commodities, because the logic is essentially the same. Oh, there can be minor differences (ie historical currency vs. not, etc), but to be so insistent on the stupidity of holding gold necessitates having some kind of belief that a note backed by promises is equal to a real physical thing.
Listen to the Rickards interview on King World News where he makes the point "if the Federal Reserve's MBS were marked on a mark to mark basis, it would be bankrupt". The owner of the printing press is bankrupt and the dial is jammed on full speed....doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the world's premiere paper-based money does it?
Same Flippen argument over and over. Just because you don't vote for Obama doesn't mean you vote for Bush. Same holds true here. I think the fiat money system is a joke, a total and complete sham. The Federal Reserve a complete sham but that doesn't automatically mean gold is the answer.
You should sell bricks of your feces as that seems to be the only store of wealth that doesn't stink.
I am Chumbawamba.
If he eats organic, he can charge a premium.
Reference the first post. Nuf said.
Good one Chumba! I just spilled Pepsi all over my keyboard!
I think I can tell who junked him, lol.
You do not answer any post that asks you to make a case for an alternative. You don't do it because you can't.
There are two kinds of people holding gold, dude...
Well, maybe 3.
Those who want it to "go up" and who are specs. The other are those who use it for wealth storage, divided into 2 camps, one that says this is a commodity like any other just more convenient than others for this purpose, and the 2nd who says "gold is money."
If your beef is with the 1st group or the last, then make it so. Don't tell people who are acquiring gold as a real commodity to hold value that they are idiots because your alternative is FRNs.
If you prefer platinum to gold or oil to gold or wheat to gold, say so. There is no difference between all these commodities in terms that ALL are fucking commodities that have real value.
I have repeatedly said that Real Bills Doctrine is the answer, that ALL things as well as IP and the time of experts should be discounted with Real Bills. The system is perfect in its simplicity and that banks' function would be to create liquidity in a market where a farmer might have to trade 100 bushel wheat notes for a bucket of coal note and the harvest hasn't happened yet. ETC.
Gold would be but ONE component of this. All tradeable commodities would use marketplace pricing just like forex. A unit of gold would be assigned worth of other units of coal or cattle or land by the marketplace and vice versa.
Banks would simply be respected liquidity providers whose job it would be to move THEIR commodities and more easily tradeable goods in lieu of less portable items. A rancher trading cattle Bills for a haircut is impracticable, whereas a banker possessing NG or oil or gold or silver Bills could facilitate such a transaction.
Wait, wait, wait, are you saying we should fix all commodity prices relative to each other?
Great way to dissappear 95% of the goods out of the market. Gresham's law doesn't only apply to different metals, it applies to anything used as money. If you don't want material to flee the marketplace, the prices must be set by the market. ALWAYS.
Man, all these people calling for needlessly complex systems. Just let the market pick what it wants to use for money. 99% of the time, it will be gold, silver, or both, possibly with copper and/or nickle thrown in for small change.
+10
FX traders feel sorry for silly news traders, who are inflexible and assume that correlations between asset classes are set in stone.
+1000
Yipcarl why are you using the 30 year time period to base your nonsense gibberings on?
..oh yea I see, its the only point in time where you can make the math fit your ridiculous assertions.
300k my arse, I've seen better 6 year old trolls than you .
now that Mr. Yip has mostly expended his considerable reservoirs of accreted bile and exposed his pedigree of illiteracy and boorish contrarianism in running the formidable ZH gauntlet, I must thank him for a refreshing and even invigorating ride through the thread this morning, accompanied by gales of laughter. there is really no better substitute for the lack of an informed and educated opinion, no matter what that may be, than rough bluster and braggadocio which has the net effect of lowering the level of discourse to a drunken street brawl. Good show, Mr Yip, you managed to hijack this particular ZH thread with the contumacious obduracy of a dedicated provocateur. In that context even the most erudite and sophisticated arguments for the considerable merits of acquiring precious metals are lost in the melée unleashed by such insensible outbursts.
Hey yard farmer how much did you pay for your education? You've got some elogent writing skills out of it but do you have any money? Did your education buy you any intellect?
AND for the other idiot. Believe what you want I'm currently at 305K. I'm sorry your pissed making your 50k at your dead end HR job it's not my fault.
What happens when Gold is at 500 and you fools are left holding the bag? Who's going to be the idiot then? We'll see worms, we'll see.
Why is Gold going to 500 and not 100?
How are you making your valuation?
You people take things so literally and you actually think people have crystal balls. I don't know if it's going to 500 or 100 or 434, I'm simply saying it's coming down and gold IS NOT the answer. That's all I'm saying.
You should know by now that valuations work 65% of the time if you're good and 20% if you're not.
NO those aren't literal numbers either. Anyone claiming they can exactly predict is full of S.
So, you meant "if", not "when". Words have meaning.
Were you just kidding when you said, "No NO you're right their going to destroy the dollar..."? You understand that Gold or any THING will skyrocket in Dollar-terms if that happens. You are making contradictory arguments. My truck is worth Trillions of Zimbabwe Dollars, but only a few thousand Loonies (that's a Canadian Dollar). If the Dollar collapses, my truck could be worth trillions of USD.
The same currency event could happen here. Pick your physical material. Oil is difficult to stockpile. I can't buy a loaf of bread or a 6 pack with a Porsche. I can't eat Oil or Porsches.
But most of all, I can't trust paper, especially when it's an electronic ledger entry. I could have a stack of T-bills, GS stock, or "name-your-paper" and all your arguments against Gold would apply.
SO you know that for sure? You know in the future if something happens something else will happen? it's that simple?
This my point people, you people are that simple. I believe Sheeple is the correct term.
No, that's why I used "if" and "could". However, if the Dollar collapses to it's intrinsic value of paper and ink, it WILL trade as such... Like Zim Dollars.
You didn't answer my question... Do you think the USD will "be destroyed"?
So basically you are saying "Give up and die"?
You're an idiot. If you want to live like that, feel free. I will happily grind your bones for fertilizer.
He will not answer any question like this one because he can't. He cannot defend his position at all.
yipcarl is one of the worst I have seen yet.
To the one who junked me, I apologize.
Edit: yipcarl is the worst I have seen yet.
I am not answering your question because i have intention of obliging you, that's why I'm not answering your question. You wouldn't get it anyway if I did. If you believe Gold is the answer then you are just another fool.
You don't know if I have gold or not.
This response is babyish, you have nothing, you are exposed and done here.
I am? is that so? What are you going to do about it? The whole 500 comments are about Gold so your the idiot then. Why would you be on here defending gold if you don't own any? OH because you're broke and only have debt. I got you.
yipcarl,,,Has diminished you all to childishness....Ignore him / her,, please, we have more pressing engagements...
yips
The answer to WHAT QUESTION, you freakin idiot?
305k. I find that hard to believe. Anyone with that amount of money wouldn't be wasting their time trolling. I assess your age to be between 13-20 by your writing style and maturity. If you're older than that, well then, the jokes on you.
Edit: Just saw you said you're 36. Are you having a severe emotional breakdown? Or are you drunk?
Believe what you want. You seem to be interested enough to be reading through all my posts? Yea I'm drunk and stoned, just about to take a shot of heroin. Wow you are so intuitive.
Gold will be used as the currency for large transactions, as it is today.. particularly between
central banks again as it is today. Once the suden devaluation of the US dollar is announced, Silver will be again be used as the day to day currency, much like silver coins in the USA's fairly
recent past were. It is interesting to note that todays american .05 coin contains six cents
worth of nickel and copper at today's prices, either the currency must be consolidated say at 10:1
or the nickel will be withdreawn from circulation. But what do I know, I remain
TrulyStupid
I actually doubt you earn $3.05 an hour, and you should have paid more for your education clearly, and studied history a little closer.
Gold will still have value in another thousand years long after the USA is gone, ..ask the Romans you numpty.
or the Greeks in fact.
Let me get right on that. It's true most people who make the money I do don't waste time with nitwits like you people. However I have extenuating circumstances that have me in front of a computer. I enjoy laughing at idiots who believe the hype. I'm sure the board will be empty at about 3pm when Jim Crammer's show starts.
Let's say I have made 305k and I'm worth a few million? How do you think I feel? How do you think I feel talking to you people? Economically superior and more intelligent that's how I feel. Furthermore I can't stand gold bugs, I can't stand them, so here I am.
Ah Ha! Now I understand you.
You hate Gold Bugs. Why didn't you just come out and say that in the beginning instead of trying to rationalize your emotional involvement?
I hate hippies... So, I ignore them rather than seeking them out and trying to convert them.
We agree on something. I hate most people, why?
Because they're fucking stupid and believe all the BS. You're quoting JP Morgan? you think he's on your side? You think he's telling you his secrets?
Come on Selah! I like you a little more because you hate hippies..
Come on. How old are you? Say you bought gold in 1978 what would it be worth now?
If have coins or bars what are you going do with them/ Melt them down? Make them into usable pieces? Exchange them for what? Paper money is no good and I agree.
OR you have GLD? What? What are you going to do with your gold Selah? Really what are you doing to do with it? It's so friggin ridiculous.
Karl, please follow these instructions closely,
http://howtohangyourself.ytmnd.com/
Yip if your basing your personal worth based on your income - your a sorry excuse for a slug.
He is a typical industry dbag; who besides a trader puts out how much money they make and think it is in good tatste? $50 says he lives in Hoboken or Long Island.
Gosh wrong again. I live in CA and NO I'm not a liberal either AND NO I didn't vote for Bush or McCain either. People have made about a half a dozen guesses and not one has been remotely right. Not one. Wana guess my ethnicity? My Religion or non religion? What's next that you idiots can get wrong??
I put out how much money because we are on a financial site and you fools are speaking about making money and investments. I am listing my SUCCESS in life monetarily, we are not on a cooking site jack off. Go back to your cubicle fool, errr your couch with you Obama check.
A good life lesson - you are never remembered for how much money you make, nor will you be asking for it with your last gasps of breath (guaranteed the same with gold). I do agree with you that gold is a good store of wealth. While you cannot pay groceries with gold, it is a very liquid form of cash (can be sold very quickly). I am not an advocator of holding 100% of assets in gold, a person should have minimum 10% in their portfolio. This 10% should be physical.
Why not just say you earned $405k? Or 505? Why not make the lie as big as possible?
Even if worth a few million, I know people worth 10x that who have significant gold holdings.
If you hate gold bugs, go on over to TF and you'll find lots of friends there. You can regale each other with how much your FRNs are soon to be "worth" and have a big circlejerk.
i had a great visual answer for you but it wont seem to take my pic, so I'll summarise.
<<<<yawn>>>>
boy am I a happy gold bitch
I'm happy because we saw another options expiration gold slam that gave back ALL of it's losses in nearly the exact same time frame as the last paper gold smack down.
This tells me very clearly that it's no longer working. The scam is unfolding within the next 2 months right on schedule.
Oh joy their aren't only idiots here. Thank You.
Haha. You're too dumb to even know what I was saying.
This is just the truth. Funny shit.
lol, sure enough. The kid has no idea what you are even talking about. Methinks he doesn't even know what an option is.
exposed
Gold Sheeple. Since I'm too stupid, drunk, dumb, a teenager, etc, etc, etc, etc to explain the problem, my boy explained it perfectly, here you go.
Gold is a profoundly awful form of money. First you get all kinds of games on its perception of value ("IMF's going to SELL SELL SELL!" or "There be titanium bars in them thar vaults!" or "You can't physically collect the gold you thought you owned, because we don't have it.") that inflate or deflate its value with press releases or rumors. If you own gold in paper form, this is what you're plagued with. If you own gold in physical form, now you have to worry about storage and liquidity--you won't be popping down to the local store to buy a six-pack with a bar of gold and you won't be likely to melt it into your own coin, because no one is going to want to think about verifying it every time they transact with it. (Is it real? Is it the correct weight? etc.)
Its a good store of value or wealth (if you can hide it well enough), but money?
Hardly.
Gold is for bitches.
Cool, I'm a bitch just like John Pierpont Morgan!
"Gold is money and nothing else". (JP Morgan)
HEY YOU FUCKING TROLLS! GET SOME!
Gold and silver are enjoying a new range today. After marking support during the "Shanghai Split" on the 19th of April (the first support level was at $1135 and second was at $1125), gold and silver have now found new support levels. I will put gold's new first level of support at $1145, with $1135 replacing $1125 as the second support level. We are steadily climbing the mountain that will see gold crush its REAL highs in a matter of a year or so. The peak has a godly altitude, one that most likely will not have a number on it. In REAL terms the high will be $10,000-$15,000 an OZ. Nominally that number may look a lot bigger, especially in the face of worthless paper currentsea, not to mention food shortages (peak oil is very real). It will be a fast climb. This even while JPM relieves themselves of their shorts along the way (yes JPM is an exhibitionist). We will reach peak altitude by the end of 2013.
So if the treasuries are bought next week with any "success" (the fact that the charade is still working amazes me, but I think China will not spoil the party...yet...I say they bail out of doelarrs in '12 or '13) gold will stay in a range of $1135-$1145. Look for gold to test its nominal high of $1226 by May 25th. It will most likely trade in a range of $1220-$1350 this summer. Fall '10 will most likely be gold's inflection point. I think gold will move from $1350 in September to $1850 by December. Gold should have its high of $2,200 some time May '11 (I have gold's real high being $2,200 in January of '80, this is debatable depending on how inflation is viewed), cool that summer to just under $2,000, and then fall of '11 will have another huge gain. Fall '11 should have gold moving towards $3,300. Precious metal's strength is proving that gold leads the markets, not the other way around.
IMF, when are you going to sell that 191.3? You know you want to......
I see your crack pipe is hitting we'll and your visions of the future are coming into the light. Please be here so I can laugh in your cracked out face in a few months..PLEASE!!!!
Wow, your parents and educational system must have been terrible.
If you insist on playing an ignorant goofball, at least be witty and engaging. Since you refuse to make an articulated statement in support of your position, at least try to bring some non-sociopathic comments to ZH.
I understand that the Yahoo MB is probably sick of you, but maybe you could go back there and try to learn how to make an intelligent argument before you play with adults.
Wow is that so? My parents died when I was 5 in a plane crash.
Oh how do you feel now?
Naw my parents are alive, well and still together thanks though. You want to bring parents into this? How about your middle eastern terrorists parents? With a name like that you must have a bone to pick.
Race bait.
Now, now... Let's not play the "race card" so quickly on the fool.
My parents were not from the Mid-East, nor were they "terrorists", and since they've both been dead for over 15 years, jokes don't bother me.
As for "Selah", it's a Biblical term for a musical instruction. I use it mostly in the Rastafarian interpretation.
Unfortunately, we have been conditioned to take great "offense" at any perceived racial sleight. To make matters worse, it is too often escalated into litigation and a cash award.
Lawyers are much worse than any racial slur. Sticks and stones... etc...
While I'm on my little soapbox, I'll try to bring this back around to Gold:
I made mention once of the historic use of Gold as money. The Old Testament mentions Gold and Silver many times as money. (correct me if I am wrong about any facts). The Old Testament dates back over 2000 years. I don't read anything about the use of Platinum or Palladium in the Bible, so I value Gold and Silver as a historical monetary system over recent and possibly transitory systems. Anything wrong with my reasoning of history?
While I do my best to avoid the controversy of "Faith", some "troll" equated my belief in Gold as historical money with a belief in God, based on my referencing the Bible. I "fed the troll" with my assertion that Egypt never had Pharaohs, because they are mentioned in the Bible..
In the future, I promise to avoid patronizing the obvious attention-whores and woeful ignorants...
Woops! You just went from being a nuisance to being RACIST. Quit wasting your time here. This area is reserved for adults. Go sit at the kids table.