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Goldman Sachs Responds To Zero Hedge
It seems quite a few individuals noticed our post attempting to justify some very peculiar language in not just a certain Goldman Sachs Internet disclaimer, but also the strange wording prominently featured in critical GS-client agreements. One happened to be Goldman Sachs itself. We take this opportunity to present the response by Goldman Sachs' spokesman Ed Canaday:
Dear Mr Durbin:
This is in response to your recent blog about our web site disclaimer. It is quite usual for websites to have disclaimers that refer to the monitoring of site usage. Most web sites, including yours we noticed, track usage by their visitors. This is primarily used for marketing and to help inform decision about enhancing content.
Your suggestion that we monitor our web site to facilitate front-running is untrue and offensive.
Sincerely
Ed Canaday
Vice President
Goldman, Sachs & Co.____________________
Ed Canaday
Office: xxx-xxx-xxxx
Cell: xxx-xxx-xxxx
We are happy to have caught the attention of Mr. Canaday. We believe this is the start of a great ongoing dialog. In that vein, Marla has replied to Mr. Canaday and Goldman Sachs, attempting to elaborate on some of the point that Ed did not touch upon. I present it below and am looking forward for Goldman's forthcoming reponse:
Dear Mr. Canady:
Thanks for your quick reply.
For your future reference, the correct spelling for "Tyler" is "Tyler Durden." (A re-viewing of "Fight Club" might be in order, but I know Goldman VPs probably rarely have time for such luxuries).
Obviously, we want to make sure we have our facts correct so I am pleased to see your email. Perhaps you can lay to rest some questions we have for the record:
1. Indeed, data use disclaimers are a common feature on most websites. Still, I think you will agree that where usage patterns are so directly linked with potential investment activity and customer intentions it is a bit unusual not to have a more explicit description of the kind of use Goldman intends here. This is particularly so where customer attitudes are concerned, and appearances are important. "Internal business purposes" is a bit vague in this respect, don't you find? This seems unlike Goldman, usually a firm known for very careful attention to detail. Why is a more specific description of such purposes not included? I would think that easier than explaining the matter repeatedly to random bloggers (and customers).
2. I notice that you have not taken the opportunity to address similar disclaimer language in the form contracts used by Goldman and Spear, Leeds and Kellogg. Was this omission intentional or an oversight? (For your reference you can find the language we are curious about here: http://www.zerohedge.com/node/12083). "You acknowledge that we may monitor your use of the Services for our own purposes (and not for your benefit). We may use the resulting information for internal business purposes or in accordance with the rules of any applicable regulatory or self-regulatory body and in compliance with applicable law and regulation."
Not to be a stickler, but the drafting here seems quite careless.
Note the differing terms between the website disclaimer "...the resultant information may be used by GS for its internal business purposes OR in accordance with the rules of any applicable regulatory or self-regulatory organization...." (emphasis added) and the form disclaimer "...we may use the resulting information for internal business purposes or in accordance with the rules of any applicable regulatory or self-regulatory body AND in compliance with applicable law and regulation...." (emphasis added).As a reformed legal professional myself, this seems a bit sloppy to me. Can you comment on the language and in particular why a more explicit definition of "internal business purposes" is not included?
3. I also notice that you do not specifically address our question:
"...has Goldman has ever actually used 360 submitted information in the decision making process of its prop trading desk?" Could you give us a response there? Perhaps you might augment that to include the decision making process of any Goldman investment decisions rather than just the prop desk and all information Goldman collects about 360 users.And lastly, while we have your attention, we were hoping you could make a statement for Zero Hedge and its readers on the long discussed topic on our pages regarding Goldman Sachs' effective monopolization of Principal Program Trading in the New York Stock Exchange. In other venues you have attributed this domination solely to Goldman's selection as the one and only SLP currently used by the NYSE. Would you care to elaborate how that fits in with the NYSE's upcoming changes to their DPTR (http://www.zerohedge.com/node/11769)
specifically as pertaining to J and K account type indicators. Was Goldman in any way consulted in the making of this decision by the NYSE? Did Goldman have any direct communication with the SEC on this issue?Thanks for your help with these matters. As an aside, if there is a contact at Goldman we can routinely direct these questions to that might be helpful for both of us going forward. I look forward to hearing from you.
Best Regards,
"Marla Singer"
Of course, as soon as we receive additional disclosure on this matter, we will post it promptly.
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I expect *crickets* in response.
Keep at em, don't back off. Beat them from the inside out from the inside out.
Very nice work, MS! Let's hope for the best in that we get a detailed and forthright response. Will they provide a response riddled with ambiguity and straw men like they did for Matt Taibbi is another question entirely...
"Dear Ms. Singer:
On behalf of GS, thank you for your well thought out inquiry/reply. Unfortunately, it is not GS's policy to divulge proprietary trading technology/info to media outlets, such as ZeroHedge. Again, thank you for your inquiry.
Warm regards,
GS"
Rise up and stab them with your plastic forks!
a spork would be better. one could gouge and remove the eyeball much more efficiently
Rise up and gouge them with your plastic sporks!!
Constructive critique of Marla's letter: please grammar check. I'm not an English major, but sentence structure in these letters should be a tad better. Love you guys!
Example please. I'm pretty solid with that stuff and didn't note any issues.
I would have written a shorter letter but I didn't have the time.
(We wanted to get a response out quickly or I would have wordsmithed some more).
It's what we regret in retrospect that better informs our subsequent actions. I'd move that up on my "Action Items" list, Marla (and nobody loves ya more than me.) Hang in there, girl. The pressure and slams only build exponentially from here if you guys keep the stream aflowin'.
XO,
Bob
Excellent riposte, Marla. Have to agree with mentat, though
cricket, cricket
Nice one :) Keep up the good work ZH
Mr. Durbin... ha ha... they got Tyler mixed up with the Senator from Illinois.
lol
Thats Mr. Durbin Sir!
1) Don't EVER loose your sense of humor with these foes - it's the ultimate insurgent/underdog weapon. They will attempt to draw you out, drag you down, make you fight on their grey field of guarded corporate-speak and literal banality. They will try to fire your indignation with aloofness and arrogance. But you will remain Voltaire-like in your impeccable reason, factual accuracy, use of colorful metaphor, and dazzling rapier wit.
2) These requests for information might ALSO be made, in parallel, as SHAREHOLDERS of Goldman Sach who are worried about corporate liability. Anyone you know hold a bunch of GS stock?
Is a FOIA request a possibility on the question about GS-SEC communication?
Just accentating the seriousness of your question.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17017708/Michael-Lewis-The-Man-Who-Crashed-the...
you only need one share to attend the shareholders meeting
DID I HEAR THAT RIGHT?!!! You see where that could go, I trust. What does it take to get heard at the meeting? Where and when is it?
GS shares are dear, but I can cough up a share for the price of admission . . .
Anybody else?
I can picture a sea of zerohedge hats (though I would prefer t-shirts, since hats can be dress-coded out just about anywhere) in that "audience" of active GS shareholders.
If you're going to criticize Goldman's spelling, then be sure to get yours right. The reply should have been addressed to Mr. Canaday, not Canady.
You need a humor transplant.
Canada Day was yesterday. Please don't bring our country into this, even though our central bank chief is ex-GS.
you're an idiot. obviously that was intentional. if that went over your head you should go back to the yahoo boards.
Dear Marla,
Go fuckyourself.
GS
I seriously doubt they will give you a legitimate response. They gave a half ass one to Matt Taibbi.
what an amazingly lame response from Canaday!
As in their response to the Rolling Stones article, what they choose to answer and how they do it says a lot about who has the true on its side
Looks like cnbc's got the Obama (their lord and savior) count down clock going. Will we see another propaganda rally?
Being Ed is one of the beneficiaries of what is the greatest fleecing operation in the history of the world I doubt he is much of an expert on what offensive truly is.
As a side note I wonder if he has ever read: Other People's money by Nomi Prins.
I doubt you going get any reply. The only reply you probably will be getting is "Please, Talk to my Lawyers"...
Lawyers? Who has money to pay for lawyers?... oh... wait. nevermind.
Ah Marla, you slay me!
Goldman will try and keep you off balance, stay focused. A lot of comments are coming indented to do just that. Keep at em, beat them from the inside out.
Dear Marla,
GS would propose to your staff an offer of employment for one year at $500,000 (US TARP of course). Contingent would be to shut down your Website.
Best Regards,
GS
Yes, you could no doubt do that job--saying nothing--from home.
You might even get a new widescreen for your basement crib. Not to mention 52 paychecks and flight vouchers plus office equipment . . .
Yeah, right!
It begs the question, why is CNBC GS start caring about what bloggers are saying?
The Force is strong in this one...
My thoughts exactly. It legitimizes ZH.
the weekly program trading stats are out for last week, which includes the Russel Rebal, and as I explained last week, the customer facilitation numbers are way up.
http://www.nyse.com/pdfs/PT06.22-06.26.pdf
however, i'm somewhat mystified by the complete absence of Goldman from the report... did they forget to file their DPTR all week?
Marla - the disappearance of GS from this report this week is far more interesting than their usual dominance which you guys harp on every week... look into it.
Very nise Merla. Maybee if Denis Kneel piced up on this it woud get somewere. Mr. Turden is a nobodi. Why would they want to mess with a bunch of digital dickweeds? Bet Mr. Canday luzes his job just for repliing to this. I hope they do respong. Good luuk!
Goldman will respond.
Remember Van Pragg's statement?
They are "painfully aware" of their need to be a force of good, and dodgy legal wording that gives the appearance that may data mine their own clients is definitely not helping with the whole force of good thing.
Yea, the force for goodness causes Darth (Van Pragg) Vader and his lackeys great pain.
Hi Marla,
I wish you hadn't divulged the 'fight club' info, because that is really personal to you and the OH crew... next thing you know Dennis DW K will be making fun of the symbolism and of course, that just ticks me off.
But, other than that, great progress!!! Can't wait to see the reply.
GS -- they must laugh at annoyances like Mr. Tyler.... considering the salaries they will rake in - and continue to rake in.
What would they even care if the whole world hated them?
They can buy all the love they need. Each and every employee. Well -the top 10% producers at least.
They will care some day soon. When enough folks lose their homes, life savings and are hungry, the mob will go looking for the "perpetrators" and not to say thank you.
"What is a man, deep down inside?
But a raging beast, with nothing to hide."
Peter Monk/Phil Lesh, "Passenger"
I would add to that...
"...if the thunder don't get ya then the lightning will."
for our GS friends...
"When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door"
The gov already has their response to our uprising planned and in the deck. It's called Operation Garden Plot. Google it.
Chilling stuff. But two questions:
1) What happens if standing up for ourselves happens at the political level? For instance, I believe NH legislature has already drafted and approved either a resolution or law addressing their states rights "should they believe that the Feds exceeding their authority."
2) What happens when Guardsmen look across the line and see their brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers amongst the "mob"? I'm not sure but I think DNA hardcode is a stronger bond than allegiance to any "authority."
I'm not advocating anything, simply wondering aloud.
"I am shocked that there is market manipulation going on here...shocked."
Your winnings, sir.
I commented on the first post that using web site activity to somehow front run a trade on it is improbable. I still stand by that.
No matter what, GS will tell everyone in the world that's what you accused them of and they can self-righteously prove you wrong. Thus begins their ZH marginalizing/discrediting efforts. They will use the conflated facts mistake to justify their status.
The right question to build a story around is #3. Most of the rest of the reply was grandstanding filler. You won't ever get an answer out of them, but whatever.
... Or else the owners of intellectual property relating to the Fight Club franchise will be calling on you, possibly at Goldman's prompting. Not sure fair use applies here.
I suggest an emergency backup set of pseudonyms and branding on which copyright has expired.
Or make glorious new web host in Kazakhstan....
The ghost of Ida Tarbell salutes you...
I do believe GS has met its match in MS. Well done My Lady.
Beat them from the inside out from the inside out. This is the reason for the high pay to keep staff inline.
They know there doing wrong, and the wrong information in the wrong hands could do severe damage.
I bet they strip search every employee before they leave the bldg.
"There was madness in any direction, at any hour. You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning"
Raoul Duke
Keep up the good work 0H
So when do we get to fight, or kill, just joking, kind of, GS?
LOL, he must be confusing you with the insider trading, philandering Dick Durbin (who is presumably evil enough to also be their client).
http://www.suntimes.com/news/1620776,CST-NWS-durbin13.article
Tyler, Marla and the whole gang here at Zero...YOU ARE WONDERFUL!
Really great work here guys and gals. Really GREAT work.
R O T F L M F A O !
This shit is going to come back to bite them on the ass. Once the riots start, they're going to want to know who was responsible...
At that point, the title of a recent Daniel Day Lewis movie comes to mind!
Your suggestion that we monitor our web site to facilitate front-running is untrue and offensive.
Canaday, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you don't know if it's true or not. You have no idea what's going on in the other silos of your firm. And I had no idea it was so easy to offend you people. If we try just a bit harder, maybe you'll start filing lawsuits for defamation. And then we get to do *discovery* -- and God knows you don't want that.
Far.. hard to believe a GS vp Canaday,brightest on the block,misspelled Durden.Come on fire him for spelling incompetance!
Now Mr.BLANKFIEN on the other hand,he has an oppertunity to come clean and steer the juggernaut into safe waters.He certainly is an honorable and upright man.It's not like he's teaching his children to game the system.
Do you really think Mr.BLANKFIEN is dancing to his own irish jig.I don't.
I know some peeps over there and thier integrity,honor, honesty and,work ethic is beyond the pale.
I find myself thinking Somalian pirates have taken over the ship and those I know don't wish to be shot.
you mean jew jig? Being full blooded scotch-irish I take offense.
Audit the Fed
S604
Congress, pls revoke the Fed's authority, and buy back the 300 shares that represent 100% ownership of the Fed, this massive privately held monopoly/cartel.
Anti-trust laws were enacted to prevent the potential political power that monopolies can exert--the Fed owns and runs most all of our current elected officials, and the 6% dividend that it keeps as operating expense from all member banks on 1% of their reserves (which are massive with the bailout bonanza) keep on quietly eroding the value of our money--it is like US citizens are all in Fed credit hell before they even started doing all the printing for this bailout...this is money that doesn't have to be spent, if we take back public ownership of the federal reserve.
Thank you,
Your friendly broken record
can i jus say thanks? daytrader in maine here, retired from the street.....and i just wanna say thanks. i thought i was the only one and was going crazy.
thank you.
can i jus say thanks? daytrader in maine here, retired from the street.....and i just wanna say thanks. i thought i was the only one and was going crazy.
thank you.
You're not going crazy. That's just what "they" want you to think. It's only paranoia if it's not true.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
J. Aron {Goldman Sachs} is a member of Dr Richard Sandors'
Chicago based "Climate Exchange"
Obama has proposed auctioning pollution permits to raise at least $646 billion from 2012 to 2019 {AKA shake down}
They want cap & trade so they can trade it. It's got nothing to do with air quality or global warming.
They want to tax EVERYONE on Earth and trade a never before known commodity; a "carbon credit" in the derivatives market.
1.3 billion Muslims that cannot pay or be charged "interest" will recognize
"carbon credits".
If you liked credit default swaps , you'll love carbon credits
Maybe GS has discovered a formidable foe?? Cheers
It is telling that they commented at all, and methinks this site is read thoroughly every day at GS. The GS Program Trading revelations, publicized only on this site, coupled with ZH's increasingly formidable "street cred," have obviously generated some level of concern at GS, and my guess is, as is typical with these type of linear thinking arrogant bastards, they're clueless on what this is, where it is going, and how to handle this, unlike the relatively easier target at goldmansachs666.com. Nonetheless the reply shows that their main perception right now is "threat," and so their defense systems have been fully activated, although you might not detect that from the fairly offhand nature and dismissive tone in their reply. In my book, their response is intended as a "probe" to discern (by way of response) how ZH operates, and maybe by whom. If you think that each word in the response was not pondered by a committee at GS and one or more hired PR consultants, you would be naive.
Please publish the right FOIA requests we should all be sumbitting to get to the bottom of the NYSE/SEC responses to Goldman's Program Trading activities and the highly suspicious discontinuation of the reports regarding it.
It's not hard to believe that "cap and trade" was a play that Paulson (all-Ivy League offensive lineman)was able to call as Treasury Secretary and Obama was the populist green guy they needed to get behind to put it over the goal line.
Who knows? It may be one of those forces for good of which they are painfully aware. In any event, it will be like Enron..wait till the inter-dealer brokers skew the market on these like they have had at it with CDSs..another shell game to fleece the sheep from their hard-earned labor as their finances get serviced.
Plain vanilla wins here on out. We've got your number. Get a real job in math or science, smartest guys on the block.
A suggestion: Send your exchanges to journalist Helen Thomas. After her slaying of Gibbs this week regarding White House attempts to control the media, she'll probably be happy to ask some tough questions of G-S as well. :)
I wish you great success in this 'exploration'...... Somehow GS seems to benefit greatly in each crisis, perhaps one day you will be discovering how they have such luck. Thanks for your efforts in this area.
http://presstv.com/programs/player/Default.aspx?id=99179
Max Keiser on GS.
Great work on this and the blog in general, guys.
Keep up the pressure. Send Matt's article to everyone you know. Enough already. We lost $100,000 in a Lehman bond that just evaporated, that was a good hunk out of our retirement money and my husband retired from Citibank. His 401K stock went from $55 to $2. With $5 you can buy a share of Citi and still have enough for a Whopper. The Obama campaign showed me that it is possible to have your voice heard. Send blogs, write emails, call people it works. GS watch out...
When 'King Henry Paulson" as newsweek dubbed his lordship let Lehman Brothers be devoured,while decreeing AIG and Citigroup as must save institutions,anyone with a brain could see the obvious Goldman Sachs Paulson connection.Paulson declaring the immediacy of the required funds on Meet The Press that following Sunday was disturbing.I wonder what the situation would be like had Paulson saved Lehman Brothers, GS competition instead of letting them,and subsequently the entire market,go belly up.I wonder why it took Matt Taibbi,a good writer,and not one of the nitwits on CNBC to write this story.Actually I don't wonder because GS tells them what to say anyway.They have been either totally clueless or,more likely,Goldman Sachs suck ups.Who watches CNBC and isn't sickened after 3 minutes?
Do you remember the couple of weeks it took for Obama and Geithner to admit that they backed the Paulson/Bernake plan?
Those few weeks were weeks of hope that our current pres and treas. sec wouldn't be cronies of the Fed and all their agents (inc. GS). The week obama and geithener announced that they backed the paulson/bernake plan was the week that China declared to America that we need to safeguard their investment, and the week the UN recommended that the world diversify away from the US$ as the world reserve currency.
Without a clear call to recall the TARP (and all the other acronyms) and an investigation as to how saving these banks is justified when letting them unwind is the only right thing to do, we are living through the biggest bank heist and it is all blessed by the US gov. thanks to our nonrepresenting representatives. When we can't depend on our elected officials to represent us, we are no different than the banana republic--i just hope that enough good people who cant be bought will step up and replace everyone in washington next time around.
agrotera,
I enjoy reading your posts.
The people who can't be bought, whom we need to step up, will likely need to be prepared to be martyrs/sacrificial lambs as well. The powers benefitting from the status quo have already demonstrated that they will do all in their power (legal or not) to preserve the status quo. How many good people who can't be bought also believe the following. "I will die for my fellow common man, if that is what's necessary to restore his rights and freedom?"
Thank you crazyjerrygarcia!
You are right on! In my dreamer brain, i hope that wethepeople can get aligned to exert our rights peacefully. I do imagine, that the current dark force of the private federal reserve corporation (the true puppeteer to most all polititians) will exert that power to make this honest ourcry for liberty and justice seem to be some kind of radical movement. I can imagine peaceful settings having shills planted to start violence just to discredit the events. But, with all that we as human beings are capable of, and even when you think of the community organizing machine that obama used to get elected, certainly we can get the same kind of machine moving for the truth of what needs to happen, and that way, we can recapture our country with peace and the legal means at our disposal. imagine if all the people who voted for obama knew that he was a puppet for the interests of the private federal reserve corporation-- now that would get some change for the better started!
i still can't get TARP passed although the majority of the constituents of all the elected officials voting, didn't want it--isn't there recourse? It is times like these where i feel so damned that i am not a lawyer!!!
The two candidates left standing were both puppets. The voters had to pick the "best" or "most tolerable" evil puppet.
Are you sure Mr. Canaday misspelled Tyler's name? Maybe Mr. Canaday knows something the rest of us ZH readers don't. Could it be true that Tyler Durden is the pseudonym for Senator Dick Durbin...elementary Watson
Tyler Durden is an alias it is not the bloggers real name. He hides behind an alias. Tyler Durden is the main character in the movie fight club.
Yes, I get that Tyler Durden is an alias (pseudonym) for the name of the real or true blogger of ZH. My comment was tongue in cheek suggesting the real or true blogger was none other than Senator Dick Durbin; thus, the reason why Canaday addressed the letter to Durbin.
i liked the old days... when the mob just whacked people... boom... outta here... no blogs... no invetigations... no "sit-downs"... you crossed a line... you got whacked... and future line crossers knew the rules going forward...
Dear Zero Hedge,
Please dot the eyes and cross the t's and ensure all information correct on your web site hosting service contracts. GS will simply buy the your name out from under out if possible. If you use "godday" you may allready be introuble.
If fact they may allready own your name and us commentors will not know.
The way to deal with GS is to out-think them, not to sling emotional arrows. These are the cold, calculating, base-humans. You must approach them as you would a quadratic equation.
Insulting people who can not feel, serves little purpose. You are blowing bubbles at the fortress walls.
You defeat tyrants either through outwitting them or by brute force. Since you guys seem reasonably passive, and they have the power of NATO behind them, you must find the cracks in their armor, and there are many.
ZeroHedgers: Have no fear. Our time is coming. We are just about ready to do The March On Rome (like Benito Mussolini). The people have not yet awakened ... times are not yet hard enough. But when 20-25% unemployment arrives, when the foreclosures reach their peak, when there are food riots in the major cities, our time will have arrived. We need to face reality. GS and their co-conspirators in Crimes Against The Nation (not Crimes against the State .. for it is the State that they OWN)will not be brought to heel until there is a change not only in the government but in the form and manner of that government. In terms of reform, think Falangist Spain or Fascist Italy. Are we ready for the Nationalist alternative?
Pointless and senseless in my opinion.
Who hears a Who and then some more?
It's a standard reply in a standard format...to some standard nonsense and that will be the end of it.
Conspirators and De-Conspirators of the world unite!
Wonder if Mr. Canaday will have the same issue with Time Magazine?
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1908562,00.html?iid=tsm...
"And get this: contained in Goldman's client form is this disclaimer, "You acknowledge that we may monitor your use of the Services for our own purposes (and not for your benefit)." The firm seems to be announcing out loud that it plans to trade against its clients."
As a GS employee i am outraged that you would question our ethics and motives in regards to out trading activities.
Quite simply we are the "chosen ones", and it is common knoledge that retail investors need a "helping hand" to be relieved of their money.
Our trading programs are designed to inflict both psychological and economic pain at what we at GS feel are an "acceptable level", as to ensure our customers remain loyal and long term (losing) clients.
I can tell you first hand from experience that we at GS take a "pro active stance" in balancing money flows from our "valued clients" towards our "more valued clients", in which we, of course, are one.
I hope this has cleared up some doubts you may have had with us at GS, and i would invite your readers to open an account with us, and i will "personally ensure" that i will manage your account/s with us to the highest standards in which we at GS are renound for.
Regards, Mercedes Porchia Ferrari,
Head of VIP Private Client Advisers at GS.
Marla,
I am with you. I have a proposal to make. If the people in power in US of A wake up and decide to'pursue' Goldman, I am sure the morons(GS vampires) will shut down the "blood sucking",vampire-managed loot-machine. Please appreciate that all the markets are manipulated. some extensively and some relatively less. Gone are those days when price processes used to be random and, markets used to be semi-efficient. Now blood-suckers like GS control the markets. After the timely demise of some lesser blood-suckers like Bear &Sterns, Lehman etc., Goldman is the only large shark left,almost. Given an opportunity, if SEC and CFTC agree to open the books, there is 90% probability that we can nail the manipulators. But, it will not happen, my dear lady, it will never happen. No one there will dare to touch Goldman.
It is the sad truth of this century. Cheers and forget about it. Don't waste your life, they might bump you off!
MeTheRebel
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