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Too bad they are hawking their own web site. Other than that, loved the JP Morgue reference.
Bought another roll of eagles a couple of weeks ago when Max Keiser got the ball rolling on this. Checked the website I buy from "Westminster Mint" (a zerohedge/google advertiser)for the price this weekend, and it was $666. a roll. JP Morgue + 666?
I think that once silver gets to a high enough level, the Fed's going to crash the markets and take silver price with it... I find it hard to believe that the Fed would leave JPM out to die.
And just how are they going to take silver's price down? Sell some of their vast hoard? Or are they going to sell all of their assets for the same price they bought them to absorb the dollars?
by hiking rates to 14 %.
Bingo. That's the only way to run the good money for bad scam. You hike rates. Hope the people are stupid enough to dump their gold and silver and dive into the pool.
What should happen is hike rates. People jump on it like a naked whore. The rest stand around and blink. They get their high interest for 2 months and then BOOM, BOOM, BOOM banks start folding like S&L's in the 80's.
Since the banks pay all the criminals and you suddenly have a huge unemployed criminal police, civil servant, bank worker population. Then you are forced to become law enforcement. People's grandpa's will have to start arresting pan handler. Then you can either go back the route that we've been on forever. Try to take advantage of them being forced into illegitimate criminal behavior from the legitimate kind they know. Try to mold them into perfect victims and get them to internalize all the horrible things they've done. Or you can extract the entire lesson of this place and just leave. Because really what the hell kind of stupid shit does this place have to teach ya other than weak willed people won't limit themselves and need to be a victim/victimizer to survive.
Well said Heph.
Misery is a tough companion to leave as is ignorance.
We do mostly get and deserve what we accept without question. Hard fought anything, while infinitely more worthwhile, is, unfortunately "hard" fought.
Like "hard" money, which I just like to shorten for "wealth".
Are socipaths capable of internalising anything given that they are conscienceless?
In other words, they are incapable of understanding that what they do is wrong or that people are suffering because of their behaviour.
If it is at all possible, the only way you can counter such behaviour is to isolate/neutralise it and its effects from/on society. As I say, if it is at all possible. As long as the bully banks 'enjoy' protection all those who are now aware should continue to buy silver.
Sociopaths kow very well what they do is wrong which is why they prefer to camoflage themselves, lurk in the shadows of institutions that lend them the veneer of respectablility, and will only reveal their true nature once they are confident they won't face the consequences. They don't care about right or wrong. They only care about themselves and their image. In fact they will leverage people's sense of morality to take advantage of their victims and keep themselves from being exposed, which is why we need to shine a bright light on their activity.
'Sociopaths know very well what they do is wrong which is why they prefer to camoflage themselves, lurk in the shadows of institutions that lend them the veneer of respectablility…'
Then how do you explain Lloyd Blankfein's famous remark that '[he] is doing God's work'?
If he believes that what he is doing is 'right and just' (shall we say), he has no need to 'lurk in the shadows', does he? In fact, given the above remark, he must see himself as some kind of 'evangelist' although I would like to know which 'god' he believes he serves.
I beg to disagree that they are, indeed, capable of even understand concepts such as 'good', 'bad', 'right' and 'wrong'. They are, as a social group, amoral - they lack the ability to distinguish between these concepts. It's not they they don't care about these things, they have no way of 'conceptualising' (horrible word) them. This is the essence, the nub, if you will, of the problem. Our problem is that this behaviour has the tacit or even the overt approval of the 'umbrella authorities' i.e. governments, which is precisely why we have arrived at this point.
We can therefore not change 'the system' which is incapable of change. We can only impose a change of sorts from outside by the simple means of PM purchase/accumulation which will protect those who do this (buy PMs) and harm those who attempt to 'disrupt' the (now inevitable) re-adoption (in some form or other) of gold and silver as money and legal tender - across the planet.
He's a liar and uses the wardrobe of religion to justify his behaviour. I think that statement indicates he feels perfectly at ease to act above the law and has indeed come out of the shadows.
No he is not. He is telling the truth. He and the rest of the banker mafia are lackeys to the church of Rome.
Look at your piece of paper or at your coin. Do you read anything like "In God we Trust", "Dominus Providebit", "God Zij Met Ons", etcetera, etcetera??
Yes, once more the world has been looted by the master looters of all times. And everyone knows that poor desperate people always turn to prayer and guidance.
This was never about money.
It's always about money.
You think the SPG desk at Goldman were holding hands and doing group prayers or dunking themselves in holy water during the summer of 2007?
Get a fucking clue.
It's pure greed, and nothing else. Any attempts to justify/defend their careers with the smokescreen of God is nothing more than the wolf duct-taping more wool to his face.
This is a tough crowd on bankers. Lets face it, most people are self-centered in the extreme. If you are pulling in $10M a year then your perspective changes. You start to justify it to yourself. You think that somehow you really are special and deserve it. I know some very wealthy people and they are not psychotic. I think it is just part of being human and having an ego to justify yourself. If you want to point the blame to anything then start thinking about the actual rules of engagement that have created such a corrupt system. Change the corporate governance rules, get rid of Federal Government mandated moral hazard at all levels. Furthermore, you can enact term limits on Congress critters. There are any number of things that can be done to change the system. Blaming the people who just happen to play the game better than others is just pissing in the wind.
What 'money'...you mean that 1 ply BS called the US Dollar that the Bernank has printed to toxic waste no other country wants to touch?
For once, you aren't being a troll
Unfortunately you've run into the sociopaths dilemna. The very heart of sick fuck mechanics. Unless EVERYONE thinks a sociopath is a fucking worthless lying piece of shit they won't change. As long as there are suckers and victims they feel they are basically alright with a road to travel and good times ahead.
Which is why they desperately need to construct the BIG lie. The big lie is the only thing that can keep them supplied with victims and once that road is consturcted they'll throw innocent bystander after innocent bystander onto the highway. And they plan to build it, repair it, keep trying to build it for ever.
It doesn't matter if you know what a person is up to and how to handle them and good ways to deal with them. As long as there are enough clueless fucked up sheeple they sniff oportunity galore. And they will drug them to fucking stupidity, eductate them to fucking worthless idiotic idealism, and continue forever and ever.
And they'll get your guides and everyone you trust to help. Construct elaborate events using thousands and thousands of complicit players with clueless fucks thrown in with no idea what is happening.
They are vapor and there is no universal law of like attracts like. They will bother pester and annoy anyone who doesn't kill them, beat them and show them no sympathy, ever. And they do not give a fuck WHAT they do. Only how they are judged.
Hephasteus, you seem well versed in sickfuckology. Where did you study?
To be precise, they lack empathy. Conscience is a somewhat different and fuzzier concept.
I would say that without conscience there is no empathy. The former is passive and the latter active, so to speak. Otherwise, I agree that lack of empathy is a defining trait of the scoipath. It goes to proving my point that they cannot deistinguish right from wrong. Doesn't exist for them. What exists is this compulsion to 'make money' - and nothing else.Tragically, isn't that enshrined in the 'American Dream'?
I remember long ago in school - my economics teacher explaining the 'profit motive' which businesses are guided by and the need for ever more growth. My immediate question to him was: why? Why do businesses need continual growth/expansion? He had no answer to my question. He mumbled something along the lines that this is how we generate/create wealth which enables more and more people to escape poverty. Yeah, right! Bogus Reaganomics' trickle-down' bullshit. This was in the 1960s, however, and Reagan wasn't even Governor of California. However, it does show how idealogy is passed from generation to generation - often without question. On another occasion, I actually annoyed him when he was explaining the principle for businesses to defer distributing profit to shareholders in order to invest in expansion. He used the Red Queen's quote from 'Alice In Wonderland' about 'jam tomorrow' = deferred profit. I explained that the Red Queen meant that you won't ever get the proferred jam: 'You can have jam tomorrow or jam yesterday but you cannot have jam today.' He was not best pleased at the explanation! He obviously had never read Lewis Carroll. He was a dyed-in-the-wool, committed Keynsian (runs screaming from the room at the mention of the dreaded JMK).
My point: if you are so focused on profit, as an individual, as part of a business, as a country and nothing else, you are dangerous. It is sadly what the British (and the Dutch) exported around the world in the 17th and 18th century. Probably, the British learnt it from the Dutch. No sure on that point. Banking certainly followed 'King Billy' (William of Orange/William III) across the North Sea when he became the British king (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_England) in 1689. A related fact, the Bank of England was founded in 1694 (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/about/history/index.htm). Its first function was to raise cash so that the King could wage war, pillage and plunder to his heart's content.
So blame all the world's current woes on the Brits and the Dutch! State-sponsored mercantilism (state-sanctioned piracy and plunder). This is a long way from my original point but all this is connected.
The only way to provide more food and goods for all mankind is to increase production. The keys to increased productivity are the efforts made by innovative people. Innovative people will not break their backs solely to benefit persons unknown to them. Innovative people will work hard if they can gain more for themselves, their families and friends. To gain more for themselves, their families and their friends innovative people must earn a profit. In making the profit they increase productivity which provides more food and goods for all mankind.
Let me give you a very, very simple example of what I mean. In Britain, ordinary people have set up what are known as Credit Unions to counter predatory lending by banks and credit card cos. Credit Unions literally lend out the money that their savers deposit with them after expenses. They are restricted both by law and their own business model to lend more than they collect as deposits. They don't borrow in order to lend and, obviously, they cannot practise 'fractional lending'. They are extremely popular given that the majority of them operate on a community basis, the staff are volunteers and often are known personally to savers and lenders alike. Community banks, if you like, except they are not banks and are not run for profit. They exist to serve an important function within a community. Their interests rates are strictly controlled, are modest, and a strict ratio is maintained between interest on depsoits and interest on loans - often razor thin but wide enough to maintain the union's viability.
This is a simple example of a 'non-capital', 'non-profit' based co-operative business which works, serves a purpose to enhance and improve people's lives without shareholders, without profit (unless you consider the retained interest on loans made which is used for running costs to be 'profit').
We need, all of us, to rediscover service to others as a life aim, a life goal for it is far more enriching than the mere accumulation of money as an end in itself which is, by its very nature and definition, worthless (if fiat) and meaningless. This strikes, too, at the very concept of 'competition' which is also divisive and destructive. We see the division and destruction which 'competition' brings in its train every day. Most will tend to look the other way; either that, or they are trapped in organisations which worship it, prostate themselves before it. Advertising is a classic example - as brilliantly exposed in the TV series Mad Men.
That is what I mean! Profit is not necessarily the only way in which we, as communities (small scale) and societies (large scale) can improve one another's lives and living conditions.
Please continue posting a lot.
"They are restricted both by law and their own business model to lend more than they collect as deposits. They don't borrow in order to lend and, obviously, they cannot practise 'fractional lending'."
I dont see how this is possible while maintaing "on demand" deposits. A non-fractional reserve bank which offered on-demand deposits would not be able to loan out money. The loaning out of money while maintaing on-demand deposits is, by definition, fractional reserve banking.
We need, all of us, to rediscover service to others as a life aim, a life goal for it is far more enriching than the mere accumulation of money as an end in itself which is, by its very nature and definition, worthless (if fiat) and meaningless.
No, "we" need to rediscover freedom. If you chose an altruistic lifestyle fine, but don't try to force me to stop interacting with those with whom I chose to interact. I believe that your philosophy is fatally flawed and I want no part of it.
The problem with do-gooders is that they so often try to do good at the point of a gun. That's almost inevitable when individuals such as you go around deciding what "we" should be doing.
I am not part of your "we." I make no demands upon you so please do not try to usurp my sovereignty as an individual with your grand plans for "we." History shows that the tender mercies of those who enforce some regulated plan for the public good always depend on the blood of innocents. For example see Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany and the decline and fall of the United States of America.
I trust those I do business with because both parties benefit from the voluntary exchange. I have no reason to trust anyone who claims that they are going to bend over backwards to help me with no thought for their own benefit. People simply are not built that way.
I chose to live my life reasonably and responsibly. You may turn your back on reality at your own risk but if you try to incorporate me into your plans for "we" you will face much greater risk.
Precisely. It's good that people feel good when they do good things, but the moment anyone tries to use coercion for "the greater good," they lose me. Get on the soapbox and tell me why I should behave the way you think I should, and that's fine with me. But get off that soapbox when you're done, and use force to coerce me into behaving as you feel I should, and we have a problem.
What do you think gives these banksters who run the show so much power in the first place? We sacrifice our individual sovereignty to some other party all in the name of letting them dictate what's good. Then, we are surprised when this control is taken up by those who may not mean the best for all. The solution is simple: Destroy the machines of control over our lives in this country, and watch prosperity return.
You've run into the other sociopath dilemna. Superficiality. They do not like people to know them and they do not like to stay in one spot too long. They like infomercials, globalization. If you take away globalization and present them that it will be FORCED that we go back to tribal government tribal existance they will throw a shit fit. Because in a tribe they can be properly judged by people who know them.
In a jet setting globalization culture full of image consultatants and infomercials they have what they desire most. Trivial superficial relationships with plenty of victims. Which is also why churches have gone TV and internet. Because it's easy to tell a story about what "god" did when you don't have someone shouting prove it fucker. Where's the witnesses!!! In other words the due dilligence thing again.
They can make up stories all they want. But you see the huge buildings they build and the huge houses the preachers have and you have to know that that community isn't rich enough to leave much left over from the collection plate.
I did 40 in a school zone the other day. Just tore ass through it and I would have killed any cop that tried to stop me. It was a private church school zone. With huge fucking meetings that they hire cops to stop people and over ride the traffic lights to allow all the assholes who go to the meeting to be "FIRST" leaving with everyone else being last. They get sidewalks and street lights and public funds and tax breaks showered all over them. The ultimate distortion of mating the private to the public in a purely leeching way. Now me tearing ass through a school zone even though it's nothing more than a "time" thing. There wasn't a goddamn kid around but the school zone light still said it was time to be careful. Now if I was stopped who do you think is going to be made wrong here. Me or the cop who got paid 200 bucks to direct traffic for them last saturday night.
That would only cause the US to collapse. Try again.
Indeud. Raising the overnight rate to 14% won't have the same effect it did in 1980. It might seem to, at first, but the US isn't a creditor nation in 2010.
Where have these people been?
the hunt brothers are still alive.
Oh please! And just how long have you been following silver? 5 minutes?
Another theory is that JPM is starting to buy the miners and hope to make up in leveraged bets on Ag miners what they lose on Ag short positions.
I hardly think a short squeeze in the silver market is going to precipitate financial Armageddon. Silver at $500 per ounce? Gimme a break.
Maybe not this time around. But 80 looks like a easy target. Take the tripple and run. Yeah Baby...Remember, "Just Buy the Fukn Dip". Dip !!!
Then you don't understand the magnitude of the market imbalance.
Silver will be worth more than gold for a period of at least three months in the blow off top that follows the industrial panic before higher prices lower consumption by half and industrial users build up what they feel is an appropriately sized stockpile. I say 3 months, but the process could go much longer than that.
This does NOT imply Armageddon, anymore than $1400 gold implied Armageddon in 2001. It only means that some electronics and other products will be somewhat to significantly more expensive.
Disclosure: I'm not disagreeing with your claims at all. I claim total ignorance of what the future holds. (And I'm long silver so I actually hope you're right!) But what line of thought makes you think Au and Ag will reach parity, or even reverse for a three months or more? I really do hope you're right, tmosley. I'd even be happy with just a return to 1:15 or thereabouts, or maybe 1:10. I'll be trading in my Ag for Au ASAP.
Pretty simple, that ratio came about as a result of approximately equal yeilds of gold and silver mines, which gave a 17:1 ratio, with all gold and silver conserved in jewelry or in bullion. However, industry has not used up that entire stockpile. As such, the price of silver has to go up relative to gold. Since there is currently more gold above ground than silver, that informs the idea or parity or greater as a target. The three months would be how long it would take for all the silver mines in the world to replenish the silver supply such that there was more silver than gold above ground ASSUMING that industrial production dropped to zero. It is much more likely that industrial use declines somewhat with exponentially rising prices as the silver price is a relatively small portion of the total cost of the product (because they use so little of it). Three months probably stands, because that is also likely to be the amount of time it takes for silver recycling to become big business (not jewelry, I'm talking stripping TVs for a few grams of silver).
I don't have a crystal ball, but that is what I think will happen.
If you make the trade at the right time, I think that anyone who owns any substantial amount of silver today will gain a huge amount of purchasing power, turning lower class people with only a tiny pile into upper middle class or "lower" upper class, with anyone having a really substantial pile (ie a life's savings) into an oligarch. Trade that silver into gold, and trade that gold for productive land, stocks (assuming that environment evens out), private companies, or whatever you like.
I'm pretty sure that this silver event will happen before any sort of hyperinflation launches, though it will probably be seen as one of if not the single event that triggered it. I think gold will do better than silver once hyperinflation is underway, as currency instability will likely drive a lot of silver users out of business (not because of the silver cost, but because of the lack of sales, or simply because the owners realize they don't want paper money any more, and start accumulating things instead of paper profits). This is where gold as money will shine.
Again, just my opinion.
That the story will play out roughly as you describe it has been my suspicion as well. At the very least, I think that there will be a good chance that the Ag:Au price ratio would overshoot its historical value (or range of values) and this is when it'll be time to make the trade. I just worry there might not be dealers around willing to play counterparty. If they hedge properly the anomaly in pricing won't matter to them because their money is earned by charging premiums, right? But if prices are changing too rapidly, or if the paper manipulation continues and is widely recognized by then, they might not be able to and this may not be a trade they can make without taking a substantial loss.
The dealers will get a spread just like they do now. If a dealer is not willing to offer a good spread, then they will go out of business. There will be plenty of people ready and willing to buy any form of silver, and it will all go immediately to be melted down for industrial use. I would think that the premiums of high quality silver items would disappear during this phase, which is why I mostly buy the cheap, but verified stuff. I have a small collection of Eagles for gifts, but otherwise I am not willing to pay those premiums.
Now, after the industrial panic has passed, or when it is beaten into submission by the collapse of the real economy, those name brand bullion products will regain their premium, as they will once again be used for trade and savings, rather than for electronics and antimicrobials.
A lot of people who own silver now will get screwed big time, as they will make the mistake of trading their silver for dollars. Don't do this. Be sure to only take gold for your silver. Preferably nice, recognizable things. The smaller the denomination, the better, really. Probably nothing more than 1 oz.
Things to look out for that may indicate that my thesis is not going to work out are a) China is found to have stockpiled a huge amount of silver (not sure if this is possible), b) China and the other electronics producing nations collapse in such a way that their industry disappears or is greatly impaired, and c) a cheaper substitute is found for silver in several of its major applications. The last one is the most likely. My own company has a technology that is much more capable of preventing infection than silver, and graphene may soon become a reasonable substitute for silver in electronic devices and solar cells (as a very cheap process has been developed that allows extremely accurate and defect free deposition of graphene onto a surface with or without defects). Despite that, I think the panic is going to come before any of those products or processes make a major impact on the market.
Your response to mtomato2 hits on exactly what I was saying I don't want to happen before I make the switch:
"Assuming things play out like many expect them to, you will have all of this gold and silver, and shorts on the COMEX. When COMEX is revealed to be a fraud, the price of futures there will drop to zero, meaning you can cover for free, while the physical you have in your inventory will skyrocket in value. You do not sell at that point, but rather you put it all into a private vault and go buy a top hat and monocle because your are very rich now."
I'm curious to hear more about the graphene. I happen to know a bit about it from a theoretical perspective, but this in no way entails knowledge of developments in industry. Please send a link my way if you can. Thanks so much for the discussion too!
Graphene has unique electrical properties due to it's ultra-aromatic structure. It essentially allows electrons to flow freely across it. Combine this property with controlled doping, and you have the perfect solar collector.
In the past, it has been difficult to produce, but this guy (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20162135) found a way to do it without much energy input and controlably using gas flow (and rate of flow) as a means of controlling deposition. Add any carbonaceous material (even table sugar), and you will get a perfect layer of graphene. Add nitrogen rich reagents like melamine (which is litterally cheaper than shit), and you get a nitrogen doped surface. You can then use those nitrogen centers as reaction sites to modify the bulk material however you like.
This development will make it so that peak oil has about the same effect that peak whale blubber did. Solar panels will be as cheap as newspapers, and made in more or less the same way, and out of the same material. High efficiency solar panels can be placed anywhere, and can be replaced for practically no cost.
"Silver will be worth more than gold for a period of at least three months in the blow off top that follows the industrial panic before higher prices lower consumption by half and industrial users build up what they feel is an appropriately sized stockpile." - tmosley
I am sexually aroused just thinking about that. Long & Strong since $4/oz. . . . . . . . . .
silver will never be worth more than gold. IF silver gets to $50 you'll see people dumping it like crazy.
Some people yes. But silver is money. Smart people would rather have real money than flying paper, phony money.
Keep thinking that nothing can change from what you are used to. It makes it easier for the rest of us.
Here's a hint: when silver enters the industrial panic stage, private dumping won't abate the price rise. The hunger of industries around the world who suddenly see that there is no physical silver available on the exchanges will bid it up very quickly. When people see what is happening, they will hold out for more money.
Those people who you claim would sell at $50 have already sold at $20, $25, and soon at $30. You can bet it will all be in strong hands by the time it hits $50.
Tmos: I'm asking you because you appear not to be a knuckle-dragging drooler. That's a complement, coming from me... I have the dumbest question on earth, and one I am likely to get junked to hell and back for:
These people who want to sell me gold and silver: What are they doing with the cash I send them? Why would they rather have cash than PM? How do they protect themselves if they really believe in what they are selling, i.e., PMs are destined to be worth more than any amout of paper?
What simple part of the equation am I missing here?
I am, but your humble servant, Mtomato2
Dealers will use the money to cover short positions equivalent to the amount of gold or silver they sold you. Since they sell at a spread to spot, they will get to keep that spread, and they use that money for operational expenses and living expenses. They can take delivery on more gold and silver, and hedge it with shorts to replenish their inventory. This is one of the legitimate reasons to own a short position in PMs.
This is also probably one of the best ways to own bullion. By acting as a dealer, you can take possession of a quantity of gold and silver that you could never afford normally, as you only pay the wholesale spread, with the spot cost covered by the proceeds of your short. Assuming things play out like many expect them to, you will have all of this gold and silver, and shorts on the COMEX. When COMEX is revealed to be a fraud, the price of futures there will drop to zero, meaning you can cover for free, while the physical you have in your inventory will skyrocket in value. You do not sell at that point, but rather you put it all into a private vault and go buy a top hat and monocle because your are very rich now.
Being a smart dealer in this environment is probably the absolute best career choice available at the moment, IF you can stand opening a business in this country, which I can't.
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