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Gonzalo Lira On The Coming Middle-Class Anarchy

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Submitted by Gonzalo Lira

The Coming Middle-Class Anarchy

True story: A retired couple I know, Brian and Ilsa, own a home in the Southwest. It’s a pretty house, right on the manicured golf course of their gated community (they’re crazy about golf).

The only problem is, they bought the house near the top of the market in 2005, and now find themselves underwater.
They’ve never missed a mortgage payment—Brian and Ilsa are the kind upright, not to say uptight 60-ish white semi-upper-middle-class couple who follow every rule, fill out every form, comply with every norm. In short, they are the backbone of America.
Even after the Global Financial Crisis had seriously hurt their retirement nest egg—and therefore their monthly income—and even fully aware that they would probably not live to see their house regain the value it has lost since they bought it, they kept up the mortgage payments. The idea of them strategically defaulting is as absurd as them sprouting wings.
When HAMP—the Home Affordable Modification Program—was unveiled, they applied, because they qualified: Every single one of the conditions applied to them, so there was no question that they would be approved—at least in theory.

Applying for HAMP was quite a struggle: Go here, go there, talk to this person, that person, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. “It’s like they didn’t want us to qualify,” Ilsa told me, as she recounted their mind-numbing travails.
It was a months-long struggle—but finally, they were approved for HAMP: Their mortgage period was extended, and the interest rate was lowered. Even though their home was still underwater, and even though they still owed the same principal to their bank, Brian and Ilsa were very happy: Their mortgage payments had gone down by 40%. This was equivalent to about 15% of their retirement income. So of course they were happy.
However, three months later, out of the blue, they got a letter from their bank, Wells Fargo: It said that, after further review, Brian and Ilsa had in fact not qualified for HAMP. Therefore, their mortgage would go back to the old rate. Not only that, they now owed the difference for the three months when they had paid the lowered mortgage—and to add insult to injury, they were assessed a “penalty for non-payment”.
Brian and Ilsa were furious—a fury which soon turned to dour depression: They tried contacting Wells Fargo, to straighten this out. Of course, they were given the run-around once again.
They kept insisting that they qualified—they qualified! But of course, that didn’t help at all—like a football, they were punted around the inner working of the Mortgage Mess, with no answers and no accountability.
Finally, exhausted, Brian and Ilsa sat down, looked at the last letter—which had no signature, and no contact name or number—and wondered what to do.
On television, the news was talking about “robo-signatures” and “foreclosure mills”, and rank illegalities—illegalities which it seemed everyone was getting away with. To top it off, foreclosures have been suspended by the largest of the banks for 90 days—which to Brian and Ilsa meant that people who weren’t paying their mortgages got to live rent free for another quarter, while they were being squeezed out of a stimulus program that had been designed—tailor made—precisely for them.
Brian and Ilsa are salt-of-the-earth people: They put four kids through college, they always paid their taxes. The last time Brian broke the law was in 1998: An illegal U-turn on a suburban street.
“We’ve done everything right, we’ve always paid on time, and this program is supposed to help us,” said Brian. “We follow the rules—but people who bought homes they couldn’t afford get to squat in those McMansions rent free. It would have been smarter if we’d been crooks.”
Now, up to this point, this is just another sob story of the Mortgage Mess—and as sob stories go, up to this point, it’s no big deal.
But here’s where the story gets ominous—here’s where the Jaws soundtrack kicks in:
Brian and Ilsa—the nice upper-middle-class retired couple, who always follow the rules, and never ever break the law—who don’t even cheat on their golf scores—even when they’re playing alone (“Because if you cheat at golf, you’re only cheating yourself”)—have decided to give their bank the middle finger.
They have essentially said, Fuckit.
They haven’t defaulted—not yet. They’re paying the lower mortgage rate. That they’re making payments is because of Brian: He is insisting that they pay something—Ilsa is of the opinion that they should forget about paying the mortgage at all.
“We follow the rules, and look where that’s gotten us?” she says, furious and depressed. “Nowhere. They run us around, like lab rats in a cage. This HAMP business was supposed to help us. I bet the bank went along with the program for three months, so that they could tell the government that they had complied—and when the government got off their backs, they turned around and raised the mortgage back up again!”
“And charged us a penalty,” Brian chimes in. The non-payment penalty was only $84—but it might as well been $84 million, for all the outrage they feel. “A penalty for non-payment!”
Nevertheless, Brian is insisting that they continue paying the mortgage—albeit the lower monthly payment—because he’s still under the atavistic sway of his law-abiding-ness.
But Ilsa is quietly, constantly insisting that they stop paying the mortgage altogether: “Everybody else is doing it—so why shouldn’t we?”
A terrible sentence, when a law-abiding citizen speaks it: Everybody else is doing it—so why don’t we?
I’m like Wayne Gretsky: I don’t concern myself with where the puck has been—I look for where the puck is going to be.
Right now, people are having a little hissy-fit over the robo-signing scandal, and the double-booking scandal (where the same mortgage was signed over to two different bonds), and the little fights between junior tranches and senior tranches and the servicer, in the MBS mess.
But none of that shit is important.
What’s really important is Brian and Ilsa: What’s really important is that law-abiding middle-class citizens are deciding that playing by the rules is nothing but a sucker’s game.
Just like the poker player who’s been fleeced by all the other players, and gets one mean attitude once he finally wakes up to the con? I’m betting that more and more of the solid American middle-class will begin saying what Brian and Ilsa said: Fuckit.
Fuck the rules. Fuck playing the game the banksters want you to play. Fuck being the good citizen. Fuck filling out every form, fuck paying every tax. Fuck the government, fuck the banks who own them. Fuck the free-loaders, living rent-free while we pay. Fuck the legal process, a game which only works if you’ve got the money to pay for the parasite lawyers. Fuck being a chump. Fuck being a stooge. Fuck trying to do the right thing—what good does that get you? What good is coming your way?
When the backbone of a country starts thinking that laws and rules are not worth following, it’s just a hop, skip and a jump to anarchy.
TV has given us the illusion that anarchy is people rioting in the streets, smashing car windows and looting every store in sight. But there’s also the polite, quiet, far deadlier anarchy of the core citizenry—the upright citizenry—throwing in the towel and deciding it’s just not worth it anymore.
If a big enough proportion of the populace—not even a majority, just a largish chunk—decides that it’s just not worth following the rules anymore, then that society’s days are numbered: Not even a police-state with an armed Marine at every corner with Shoot-to-Kill orders can stop such middle-class anarchy.
Brian and Ilsa are such anarchists—grey-haired, well-dressed, golf-loving, well-to-do, exceedingly polite anarchists: But anarchists nevertheless. They are not important, or powerful, or influential: They are average—that’s why they’re so deadly: Their numbers are millions. And they are slowly, painfully coming to the conclusion that it’s just not worth it anymore.
Once enough of these J. Crew Anarchists decide they no longer give a fuck, it’s over for America—because they are America.
Update I:
The Center for Public Integrity has a story, written by Michael Hudson this past August 6, that shines a light on the issue of perverse incentives of the HAMP program. These perverse incentives came to light because of a whistleblower, a former employee of Fannie Mae, filing a lawsuit. Fannie Mae was so keen on being perceived as a money-maker, after the Federal government bailout, that the aid programs passed by the Congress and signed by the President were turned into profit centers.
The former executive, Caroline Herron, recounts:

    “It appeared that Fannie Mae officers were focused on maximizing incentive payments available to Fannie Mae under various federal programs – even if this meant wasting taxpayer money and delaying the implementation of high-priority Treasury programs,” she claims in the lawsuit. 

    Herron alleges that Fannie Mae officials terminated her $200-an-hour consulting work in January because she raised questions about how it was administering the federal government’s push to help homeowners avoid foreclosure, known as the Home Affordable Modification Program, or HAMP.

Herron further alleged that “trial mods” were implemented regardless of eligibility of applicants, so that Fannie Mae would be eligible for Federal government bonuses.
Ms. Herron’s testimony in fact proves Ilsa’s suspicion that there was a scam at bottom. As Mr. Hudson writes, “Herron charges that Fannie Mae continued in headlong pursuit of ‘trial mods’ even though it knew that many had little chance of becoming permanent. [. . .] Fannie preferred doing trials, Herron alleges, because it was eligible to receive incentive payments from the Treasury Department.”
So in the pursuit of these perverse incentives, people who did not qualify for HAMP were enrolled in the program. And when their “trial mods” were up after 90 days, they would be notified that they didn’t qualify—regardless of whether they in fact did qualify, as in the case of Brian and Ilsa.
All so as to be perceived as a profitable operation, worth having been bailed out. All so as to be perceived as “returning America’s money”.
As of February, 2010, of the over one million homeowners’ mortgages under HAMP auspices, 83% were “trial mods”. One would assume that those 850,000 homeowners would also be assessed an $84 penalty for non-payment.
$84 times over 850,000? You do the math.


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Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:19 | 638501 Observer
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you(tmosley) beat me(my post)to the punch!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 23:59 | 638849 Founders Keeper
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[You think that the United States was capitalist at the time that that war was going on.  It was not, and has not been since 1913.]

Good post, tmosley.


Unfortunately, the meaning of Capitalism has changed to greed, selfishness, corruption, and destruction.  

Capitalism used to mean personal freedom, security(emotional) in one's private property, fairness, balance, creativity, and hope.  Capitalism and the U.S. Constitution go hand in hand.  Capitalism is the economic expression of individual liberty.

I'm afraid the American citizen's perception of the meaning of Capitalism is now too far removed from the original meaning.  A lot of damage has been done.   Very likely beyond repair.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 10:49 | 639228 fiftybagger
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The term capitalism was coined by Marx.  Think about that one....

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:14 | 638496 Observer
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capitalism is the freedom to choose my way of life and live by it and pay for it myself without 'bailouts'. how many truly caplitalist societies have we had in history? none! that is because it is human nature to grab and keep power and concentrated power and capitalism don't exist together. either we live as libertarians with a capitalist economy or we live as minions in a totalitarian regime of varying degrees. Even when America was expanding rapidly in the late 19th century Americans of African descent hardly had any rights. if and when we live as free beings we will have a truly capitalist economy

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 15:23 | 639601 nuinut
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 if and when we live as free beings we will have a truly capitalist economy

We'll get there. 

Be a little collateral damage on the way, but if you want an omelette...

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 17:27 | 639796 chopper read
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Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:35 | 638125 VWbug
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leonard peikoff wrote an unfortunately prescient book about this called the Ominous Parallels.

Of course left and right are misleading terms.

The concise way to put it is 'collectivists' vs 'individualists' but a lot of people don't have a clue what either of those mean.

So the best way i can think of is to say the totalitarian, religous extremist, racists are a much bigger threat in the USA than their near cousins the totalitarian marxists/socialists.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 17:14 | 638373 Al Gorerhythm
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This is like a dems / repub argument.


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 17:56 | 638412 RECISION
RECISION's picture

Brilliant - spot on.

Says it all.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 17:57 | 638413 RECISION
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Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:39 | 637818 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

Marx is in office now. The trouble seems to be that his teleprompter isn't sufficient to establish absolute control. It would seem that the followers haven't quite the skills of the leader. This Internet thing to is a player not properly recognized and "priced in" when the plan was hatched.

The war rages on.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:09 | 637858 brodix
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Get your history straight. Marx couldn't organize his own family. It's Lenin you have to worry about. Marx thought that if the lines between personal and private property were eliminated, the rich would take their corrupt monarchies with them and the state would wither away. Lenin filled the vacuum by making everything the state.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:22 | 637882 DosZap
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Both were  Satanic bastards, which one murdered more of HIS own people after WWII, than the other?.

Between Marx,Mao, and Polpot, and asst others, over 100 million innocents have been murdered at the hands of their OWN, in just the last 100yrs.( Not even counting Hitler).

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:35 | 637903 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

"progressive' explained. Thanks.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 18:59 | 638472 firstdivision
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Really, please tell me what country Marx was the leader of again.  My leftist shool history classes all taught me he was a philosopher, not how he rose to power.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 11:04 | 639248 ISEEIT
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Good point. Should have mentioned Lenin/Castro/LBJ/Chavez/Mao/? 'It's the philoshopy stupid!'

Does that work?

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 12:08 | 639333 firstdivision
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How many died under the rule of the Pope?  How many in the name of Islam?  How about Judaism?  As I recall, the Tzar of Russia wasn't exactly nice to his own people as well.  I still agree with the statement that religion killed more than any politics.  Left/Right was just created to distract the public from the flogging we are all truely taking.  The true political sides in this country are only the classes of seperation by income. 

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 01:17 | 638914 scaleindependent
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As entropy increases... As social cohesion deteriorates and trust and collegiality give way to anger, vengeance and scapegoating you would expect that the political process of the USA will also disintegrate into more mudslinging, more backstabbing...  Before it is over I expect assasinations both from the right and the left.

Wynn is not the only one predicting this. Celente and others have also.

So why the junks and the attacks without explanation?

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 22:37 | 640102 Cow
Cow's picture

Godwins Law regarding mentioning Hitler


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:50 | 637740 Missing_Link
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Thanks, David!  Good show.  I love Gonzalo's articles -- he's an incredibly bright and articulate speaker.  A bit of a shame to watch him on the Keiser show; Keiser really doesn't have the eloquence or dignity for a show like that, but at least Gonzalo makes up for it.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:36 | 638124 Rusty Shorts
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You really are Missing_a_Link.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 17:06 | 638363 WaterWings
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Max has me laughing in an angry way each show - brilliant. Ye know not of what ye speak.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 12:34 | 643413 ATG
ATG's picture

GL on MK:

More costly gold infinity dollar zero hyperinflation sheer nonsense.

Just because it happened in Chile or Argentina or a thousand banana republics does not guarantee it will happen in the USA where the dollar is global defacto reserve currency, military rules, USA #1 prisoners, #1 gold in world.

QEII a Fed poker bluff fantasy to kick the can down the road until the elections, not reflected by actual Fed stats, falling bank earnings, foreclosures and falling collateral assets.

Rising interest rates reflected by gold strengthen dollars and weaken all other markets.

Real 40% rates of -35% falling collateral assets plus 5% nominal equipment leases, loans and mortgages guarantee deflation with a stronger dollar.

Companies issuing 100 year bonds at what they think are low rates may rue the day.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:33 | 637717 Janice
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Basterz, Bitchez!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:33 | 637718 Fearless Rick
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However, three months later, out of the blue, they got a letter from their bank, Wells Fargo: It said that, after further review, Brian and Ilsa had in fact not qualified for HAMP. Therefore, their mortgage would go back to the old rate. Not only that, they now owed the difference for the three months when they had paid the lowered mortgage—and to add insult to injury, they were assessed a “penalty for non-payment”.

Memo to Brian: Listen to your wife. Stop paying. Hire a good lawyer and buy silver and gold and with what would be the mortgage payment. Your money is better invested that way.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:53 | 637833 Kaiser Sousa
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Fearless -

precisely...ur prescription is a double fisted way to fuck the bankers who deserve just that...

take away their usory revenues & dump their debt coupon currency  for real money...

The battle cry "fuckit"....

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 10:41 | 639213 RockyRacoon
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I smell blood (money) in the water.  States could use the extra income from some fraud cases.

States Attorneys General are girding for the long battle.

Up to 40 States Plan Inquiry Into Foreclosure Data Associated Press

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:33 | 637719 CitizenPete
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Sat, 10/09/2010 - 16:47 | 638336 Chandos
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"fuck it"  will no doubt be one of the dominating memes to come...fuck it as personal mantra...this time hopefully not to be recuperated and sold back to the masses as cheap merchandise, like No future has....The thing is though, we must stop losing precious time writing about it and congratulating ourselves for "getting it" - or inversly, chastising others that don't - .....For the PTB the Internet is both an incredible foe and a godsend; it creates a possibly critical mass of people who know what they're up to, but binds them to their screens......What to do?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:40 | 637720 DaveyJones
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A few months back I saw a new case in the system. John and Mary were in their mid fifties. Mary lost her job first and along with it her medical benefits. Then John's hours got cut. Mary had a serious ongoing medical conditon. John's job did not have benefits. John got another job at Starbucks. The medical bills started to pile up. John started stealing coffee and was trying to resell it to individual street vendors. Mary started helping in the scheme. It's been a long time since I've seen a fifty five year old man cry like a juvenile suspect. Neither had broken a law in their life as well. In the meantime, our local prosecutors just announced that due to budget cuts, they are firing twenty prosecutors (never seen that) and will now have to de-emphasize property crimes. Of course one on the fastest growing areas is identity theft. We are also seeing an increase in domestic violence and theft between child and parent as many are moving back in or staying longer. This is not going to end well  

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:55 | 637836 MsCreant
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Thanks for that Davey. Wow.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:47 | 638237 minus dog
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No shit on the ID theft, I live in the middle of nowhere and regularly catch people trying to steal anything and everything... bills, DVD's, junkmail, etc.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:36 | 637722 Everyman
Everyman's picture

IF this is the way it's gonna be, then FINE, we did make these "rules" anyway.  The mantra for our next 2 decades:

Fuck the rules. Fuck playing the game the banksters want you to play. Fuck being the good citizen. Fuck filling out every form, fuck paying every tax. Fuck the government, fuck the banks who own them. Fuck the free-loaders, living rent-free while we pay. Fuck the legal process, a game which only works if you’ve got the money to pay for the parasite lawyers. Fuck being a chump. Fuck being a stooge. Fuck trying to do the right thing—what good does that get you? What good is coming your way?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:02 | 637848 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

i love it...gotta share this...

please title this mantra...i would like to see it everywhere...

until things r set right - Fuck it...

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:33 | 637893 Paul E. Math
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Please note the similarity in overall tone to Irvine Welsh's verbalization of the ethos of the heroin addict.  This is moral decay, not in a subtle, creeping, subconscious fashion but purposefull, overt and pragmatically chosen:

"Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed-interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisure wear and matching luggage. Choose a three piece suite on hire purchase in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing sprit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked-up brats you have spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that?"


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:37 | 637723 Everyman
Everyman's picture

This is just FULL of great quotes:


They are average—that’s why they’re so deadly: Their numbers are millions. And they are slowly, painfully coming to the conclusion that it’s just not worth it anymore.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:37 | 637724 enobittep
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You bet.  Make no mistake about it.  This is exactly how lunitics like Hitler get into power.


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:55 | 637746 Dismal Scientist
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See my comment at top of thread. Couldn't agree more.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:35 | 637812 Cistercian
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And the question that keeps me up at night is this:was it engineered precisely to put a dictatorship into effect?I think the answer has to be makes so much more sense in explaining events of the last 10 years.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:33 | 637899 Bananamerican
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"was it engineered precisely to put a dictatorship into effect?"

rest easy Cister....

IT was engineered simply to put money, lots and lots of money, into the pockets of vain and greedy men.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:45 | 638139 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

It wasn't engineered.   This clusterscenario is an emergent one, not the doing of masterminds.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 13:32 | 638000 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Well, your # 2 here, that get's the PLAN.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:42 | 638229 macholatte
macholatte's picture

...was it engineered precisely to put a dictatorship into effect?I think the answer has to be makes so much more sense in explaining events of the last 10 years.


If you look at history, and I mean going back a bit farther than Bush 2 as the MSM would have it, then a pattern does appear. Perhaps the analogy could be like 4 college guys in a bus deciding to drive from LA to New York but without a map. They know where they want to go, East, have the equipment to get there, in no hurry and will welcome hichhikers with gas money. Along the way they have a few flat tires, some die, new people take the wheel, they try different things, but they stay the course.

So what are they going to do once they get to New York?


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:55 | 638624 blunderdog
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There is no "New York."

There is no conspiracy.

Just for discussion's sake, say there are 100,000 people who wield control of vast resources.  They're not a team.  They don't have the same agenda or the same interests.  When individual interests happen to align, they work with each other, and when they don't, they work against each other.

There are a few interests which are highly prevalent, and they are fundamentally dependent on maintaining existing wealth structures, because today, wealth is power.

Put Rupert Murdoch, George Soros, David Rene de Rothschild, Hugo Chavez, Prince Charles, and Bill Gates in the same room and they'd probably hate each other.  They might disagree on any given policy or idea about "the right thing to do."

But they would definitely AGREE that the existing system of distribution of resources should remain in place.  International financial exchanges, trade agreements, protection of property from sovereigns, etc.  The majority of the population cannot be permitted free and clear ownership of their means of survival because it threatens existing power structures.

There's no plan.  It's just an agreed-upon set of rules.

To stretch your analogy, the four guys are all trying to get to different destinations, and they'll fight like cats and dogs over where they're going.  But they definitely aren't getting out of the car.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 15:39 | 639615 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

I find it fascinating to see which posts collect junks.

C'mon, guys.  No actual criticism of CONTENT?

I confess to being a bit surprised: it just seems like basic common-sense to me.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:02 | 637846 nevadan
nevadan's picture

DC is full of lunatics now.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:54 | 638154 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Hehe, he said 'now.'

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:44 | 637728 Rainman
Rainman's picture

Crony capitalism eventually converts its victims to lawlessness and irresponsibility. TARP was the kickoff to a long game. We're still in the first quarter.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:45 | 637732 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

"60-ish white"  Ooops. They should have known the program wasn't there for them.  Wells Fargo didn't tell them the real reason they were slow to approve and they didn't tell them exactly why they were un-approved 90 days later by some anonymous back-room staffer.  The program wasn't for them and they should have known not to apply, to keep their mouth shut, and to pay.  The program wasn't for them.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:28 | 637797 bronzie
bronzie's picture

"imagine if you can an unemployed black man sitting on a crumbling porch somewhere in Alabama in his string vest"

Bird and Fortune on the subprime crisis

hilarious video - subprime starts around 3:00

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:34 | 637902 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

"Bird and Fortune"?


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:10 | 638081 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

No junk here, bugs_ is right on.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 02:38 | 638977 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

Ahh, to be the proverbial one-legged black lesbian.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:48 | 637736 MrVincent
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This article tries to make it look like these people "did the right thing".

Wait a minute! They bought a home at the top of the market and now they try to get taxpayer money to make up for their mistakes!

I hate the banks just like the next guy, but lets not forget the mistakes that the borrower has made.


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:12 | 637772 NoVolumeMeltup
NoVolumeMeltup's picture

While many ZH-types plainly saw the writing on the wall regarding real estate, I don't expect the average American couple to be able to call a top in any given market.

Plus the fact that Greenscam's low low rates were artificially driving demand and TPTB have been burying price discovery like a cat burying shit takes an amount (but surely not all) of the onus from them in my mind.

Fuckit indeed.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:43 | 637815 bronzie
bronzie's picture

it's not an easy issue - on one side we have financially illiterate people watching American Idle, Flip This House and other reality TV instead of educating themselves about the world they live in - on the other side we have educated people who make a living by screwing over uneducated people - is it a big surprise that the uneducated people got sucked into the biggest real estate bubble planet Earth has ever seen?

two phrases come to mind:

1. "tough love"

2. "there's no such thing as a free lunch"

edit: and didn't one of our founding fathers say something about needing an educated population to run a country?

"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves, (A)nd if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."
Thomas Jefferson

isn't TJ telling us here that the only way we can maintain our society is by becoming educated?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:20 | 637877 i-dog
i-dog's picture

I think you'll find that Churchill had a more practical view of the "safe depository" problem:

“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 13:31 | 637997 bronzie
bronzie's picture


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 21:16 | 638652 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Which is why we're governed by a Republic in the US.

A large IQ test is being administered on Humanity -- the majority are FAILING!

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 11:53 | 639313 Bitch Tits
Bitch Tits's picture

So, Churchill thought himself above others - a true sign of a psychopath, btw - a bit smug of him, don't you think?

Men's actions speak louder than words, methinks. And some truths take a different sort of intelligence to be able to comprehend, one maybe not even recognized by men like Churchill  . . .

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 21:45 | 639993 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Explain yourself & screen name to Churchill...LOL.

Or maybe Churchill already knows ;-)

Churchill: Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?
Socialite: My goodness, Mr. Churchill… Well, I suppose… we would have to discuss terms, of course…
Churchill: Would you sleep with me for five pounds?
Socialite: Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!
Churchill: Madam, we’ve already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 11:54 | 639314 Bitch Tits
Bitch Tits's picture

double post, sorry.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:22 | 638201 Lucky Guesst
Lucky Guesst's picture

Is it an accident that we dump way more money money in our schools than other countries and have such poor results? Only kids with good parental intervention have a clear sense of reality. Who runs the schools? Liberal Union Idiots! There are some great educators with good intentions in the schools but they are few and powerless to change the entire system. The worse the results the more tax money they get to cry for and those at the top get incredible salaries! Its the same scam for every Left project, cry about the victims and get a huge salary to deliver a program that never helps, only restricts. In the mean time they get the power to create rules and policies to strengthen the progressive take-over!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:05 | 638706 jesus
jesus's picture

What an interesting and very stupid analysis. Take a look at a list of countries that have better educational systems than ours (as measured by test scores, etc). Pretty much ALL of them are FAR more liberal/progressive than our country, and the majority have much stronger unions and labor laws.


Facts: Don't let them get in the way of your fantasies.


Sun, 10/10/2010 - 06:44 | 639057 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Timothy Gatto has a worthwhile book published in installments on, for those interested in the American public education system.

I encourage the Zedge to read it, & make of it what thou whilt.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 13:32 | 637919 Misstrial
Misstrial's picture

Mr. Vincent -

As a Gen Xer and renter, what I see here is an older Boomer couple who were handed every financial, educational, and employment opportunity the world and the USA could offer for decades.

They made the mistake of assuming that the status quo would continue despite endless wars, a truly heinous national deficit through multiple "R" or "D" Administrations/Congresses, offshoring, outsourcing, and the decimation of our manufacturing base in every industry since the mid-1970's among other problems.

btw, by 2005, bloggers were warning of impending doom in the housing market.

Shiller, Schiff, Ben Jones of the Housing Bubble Blog were openly warning prospective buyers. Same with the Craigslist Housing Forum. Many posters on CL, myself included (a member since 10/2005) were warning prospective buyers and homeowners of the doom on the horizon. We also provided many, many, many links to online articles from all news sources regarding the manipulation of housing market pricing via flipping and "specuvestors", appraisal corruption, and appalling lending "standards" (term loosely applied here).

Further, by 2005/6, was well-known (and mocked) in real estate circles and Patrick Killelea was warning of an imminent housing collapse. People who took the time to research and think this through had  come to the conclusion that this housing run-up was not sustainable and was simply a "house of cards."

Apparently this couple, like many others, did not do their research and made an expensive purchase based upon real estate agent "happy talk" and the assumption that the social and financial order (such as the stock & bond markets) will always follow a linear continuum (upwards) as in the past 50 years.

They could have turned around and sold this same property in 2006 or 2007 and still made a profit.

To base their house payments on assumed monthly income from investments was not wise, and anyone reading their story should take instruction on what not to do. The generation previous to theirs, the WW2 Generation, or at least the ones I knew, made certain that they owned their home outright by the time they retired.

Sadly the Boomers did not follow the example of their parents and continued to play the RE game as they reached their retirement years. Unfortunately, they made assumptions based upon past housing and market performance and lost.



Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:06 | 638075 DosZap
DosZap's picture


You seem to have  assumed much.

First the Average ZH person is far and above the normal American if fiscal/fiduciary/educational background/ ways.

Plus, they have no clue about any of these people, nor their warnings, nor their existence.

Ever had an orgasm?,if yes,have you ever had someone tell you what one feels like?.

Are they remotely the same?.

Hell no.

Same here.........

This couple, worked hard,got an education,worked for many years, and saved,and planned,based on the world as THEY knew it.

Since only God knows the future 100%, all we as humans (normal ones), have to go on, is what HAS BEEN, especially when it has BEEN all our lives.

Also, assuming Boomers did not pay off their mortgages is presumptious a wee bit, no?.

I know a lot that did, mines been paid off since I was 45.

Why?, because I decided to live debt free, as far as humanly possible. Like many others we do not give credit to, decided long ago, to not be the tail, but the head.

We all have that choice, just how badly we want it,is the ultimate question.

These folks seem to have laid out really sound plans,except the RULES of the game were changed.

Thieves in high places BROKE the system,that had worked for 50+ years. The rest of responsible Americans who had made a plan, and worked the plan, are getting screwed.

This IMHO, is not their fault.

Had they not fiscally been able to afford their retirement style, I seriously doubt they would have been on a residental Golfing Community,which as some know here are not inexpensive.  

Who KNEW the Bankers, and the Govt's of the world were going to get caught gaming the system, and ruining the entire worlds financial house?.

Not me. As well as I prepared, it would have been changed, as would my place of residence.

Personally, I think we need another Founders Part Deaux.

Whatever comes, I do not plan on being cannon fodder........when you kill a venomous snake,you do not cut the tail off, you get the head.

Victim, or Victor, which do you choose?.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 16:13 | 638105 Misstrial
Misstrial's picture

Hi DosZap:

Although the average ZH readership is well-read and financially informed compared to the average American, nevertheless, the Internet and Craigslist *is* for the average American and links to many middle-of-the-road news sources.

There was also YouTube where "Dolly the Sheep" made her debut and Schiff, Shiller, Roubini were featured in a heavily-viewed presentation of the housing bubble meltdown.

I still have the link to that video "Our Economy Right Now" which was filmed to Van Halen's "Right Now". Something like 2M viewed it before it was removed by YouTube: "video contains content from WMG, who has blocked it on copyright grounds."

Here is another one from 2006 and is a clip compilation from the various major networks on an impending housing collapse and financial meltdown:

Shiff was warning in 2007 via major television media:

I did not mean to imply that ALL Boomers failed to make certain that their retirement home was fully paid for and not leveraged or heloc'd.

However this couple chose a mortgaged residence despite the drawbacks to taking such a financial risk at their age. I would like to clarify that there are also many Boomers who did make certain that their mortgage was fully paid off by the time they retired. These responsible Boomers are the unsung heroes of their generation, yet sadly, the focus has been on those who failed to prepare for their retirement years and have now chosen to pattern their behavior after  banksters who should be imprisoned.

Perhaps at one time, based on assumptions of market performance, the profiled couple could afford a golf club community, however they no longer can and so they are facing the probability of having to sell their home for less than they purchased. If renters lose their job or suffer losses in the markets due to falling (or collapsing) investment values, then they have to move out to a less expensive rental or move in with the relatives or friends (not to imply that relatives cannot also be friends).

Lastly, I think after all of these decades of being at the top of the social ladder and enjoying the benefits of tax write-offs, tax credits, Prop 13, and the mortgage-interest deduction, homeowners are having a very rough time accepting a position of less importance and possibly being despised. This is a state-of-affairs that renters have had to deal with for a very long time.



Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:20 | 638581 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

both of your posts above are excellent, well-reasoned, and well argued Misstrial.

I have very little sympathy for people who have benefited from their cultural positions, la-la-la through their lives thinking they're where they are solely on their own merits, with zero acknowledgement for what their "country" does globally in their name, and how they profit from those actions. . . the leg up their "ethnicity" gives them, the doors that magically open simply because they fit the social criteria - then all of a sudden hit a reality wall and feel hard done by.

it's called responsibility folks, we all need to take it on our own behalf. . . this couple need to suck it up and make some hard decisions about where they are at this moment in time, and then act accordingly.

if they think it's cool to "default" on their mortgage, and continue living in their golf community, fine, that's a decision. . . but I know I would not be such a sitting duck when the real shit hits the real fan soon. . . all those "master plan" communities will sure look like rich pickin' to the "underclass". . .

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 00:11 | 638860 Misstrial
Misstrial's picture

T/Y Cathartes Aura.


Sun, 10/10/2010 - 12:03 | 639327 Bitch Tits
Bitch Tits's picture

Misstrial, I think you misunderstood the game. I base this judgement on your statement: "I would like to clarify that there are also many Boomers who did make certain that their mortgage was fully paid off by the time they retired. These responsible Boomers are the unsung heroes of their generation . . ."

Unsung heroes? These days, those people would be called suckers. I can practically foretell their future: their savings will be depleted by fees and dropping market values, as well as having to take in their children or parents and the extra associated costs, they will have to go back to work when their SS and Medicare coverage no longer covers the essentials, and their home will be re-mortgaged within the next five years because they will be taxed and insured and utility-ed (okay, now I'm making up words but I know you understand) out of their current housing budget.

Life's a bitch, my friend . . . and then, you get old.

Beware the predators. They're everywhere.




Sun, 10/10/2010 - 14:11 | 639526 Misstrial
Misstrial's picture

Sorry but your final sentence makes you appear paranoid.


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:39 | 638224 arby63
arby63's picture

Let's also point out (at least from my reading) that they were just looking for better terms. I didn't notice they were trying to skate on what they owed....unless, of course, the "fuckit" syndrome takes hold.

Either way it's too easy to "cyber preach" when for all we know we're all 17 year-old virgins with dirty underwear. Just saying.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 15:52 | 639628 nuinut
nuinut's picture

except the RULES of the game were changed.

Rubbish. They assumed they knew the rules.

Time for personal responsibility.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 23:27 | 640190 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Bullshit, the bankstas got their food stamp bailout.  Dumped their trash at the FED, and are now rolling in the dough by playing the zero risk spread in Tbonds.  They dumped houses ruining the housing market.  Made it damn near impossible for anyone to refi their mortgages due to the "comps" from foreclosure sales.  "Loan" money they never had and charge interest on it (search "Mako" for an education on it).  I say let them die a painful death, they are fucking parasites.  Our bought and paid for politicians aren't any better, we should shut that whore house down, too.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:24 | 638104 Dburn
Dburn's picture

Blaming the victim doesn't work anymore. Maybe if you go to a bankers site...


Sun, 10/10/2010 - 01:12 | 638910 chopper read
chopper read's picture

by the same token, is there anyone left that is not a victim?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:52 | 637742 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture


Oh and...Molon Labe, Bitches.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:54 | 637745 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Consumer protection is a joke!

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 11:32 | 639284 snowball777
snowball777's picture

I put consumer protection in a class with abstinence-based sex-ed and fusion...great in theory, useless in practice.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:58 | 637748 Popo
Popo's picture

The elites shattered the trust in the system at every single turn.  Ratings agencies.  Offshore banking.  Insider political appointees.  Wall Street Fraud.  High Frequency Trading.  Etc. Etc. Etc.

This isn't so much a defection by the middle class as it is a vote to join the elites.

The only way to restore faith in the system is to start putting elites in jail -- fast.

With no exaggeration:  There are literally tens of thousands of Wall Streeters, bankers and executives that have violated serious laws and need to be prosecuted -- and likely see jail time.

Until the middle class sees this, its going to be a free for all.   The ball is in the hands of the regulators.  

If they drop the ball, they break America.   And the clock is ticking.  

This shit will get ugly very fast.  As everyone knows, crashes happen quickly.  Once money starts to pull out, it moves with breathtaking, horrifying speed.  And it will.  Soon.  




Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:17 | 637780 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Already happening, my friend.

It's like a collision of galaxies.  For a long time, it looks like a near miss, like nothing much is happening in all of that empty space, but gravity has already done its deadly work.

At least you are aware.  So many are not.  Good luck.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:36 | 637905 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

nice addendum Popo

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 16:04 | 638172 Misstrial
Misstrial's picture

Popo: +1000

Two years ago Mike Morgan said these banksters needed to be arrested, charged, and imprisoned.

Unfortunately nothing was done other than watch them reward themselves with bonuses.

Now its monkey-see, monkey-do.



Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:42 | 638228 arby63
arby63's picture

Right on. There are no rules anymore; I think we'll all be seeing that more clearly with each passing day. What rules? I didn't sign that social contract we often reference. What if we don't even acknowledge the game let alone the rules?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:27 | 638593 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

This isn't so much a defection by the middle class as it is a vote to join the elites.


"they got theirs, so I can grab mine!"

this immature thought process will turn around and bite everyone's ass.

great post Popo.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:56 | 637749 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

When small town lawyers and CPAs are joining the rebellion, there is no middle.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 10:59 | 637752 Coolidge Low
Coolidge Low's picture

Man, I feel for these people, but nobody asked them to over extend themselves and purchase a home beyond their means.  Did they not know they were buying an over extended market?  Guess who is now going to get stuck with their mortgage?  That's right....... Maybe we should publish stories on how the "me" generation of baby boomer lucusts have destroyed the economy and are now crying like whining babies because they have to take responsibility for their actions.  Doesn't sound like there was fraud.  Doesn't sound like they unexpectantly lost a job.  Doesn't sound like they were hit with medical bills.

Golf course community...... I bet they still play a couple of rounds as you and I are figuring out our future tax liability.  Sell the home, move into something more affordable and find new friends.  Take the hit and move on.

P.S.  I bet they are not willing to take a haircut on their social security benefits as future generations will...... yeah, entitled.


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:28 | 637794 Cvillian
Cvillian's picture

I am the same as these people homey. I bought my first place at a bad time (early 2005) but am responsible, law abiding and continue to pay my mortgage on a condo that is anywhere between 30-40% underwater. Over the past two and half years, anywhere between 40-50% of my condo project has walked away or defaulted on their properties, crushing the local market and making refinance in this lower interest rate environment impossible. I rent my property out as marriage and a new job forced me to leave but I continue to lose money every month on this terd. I will be paying down debt to Chase for a long time (at a higher interest rate I can't do anything about) and am equally pissed that I can't pay more principal through a lower mortgage rate.  The banks don't give a sh-t and are slowly ramming me in the ass. Oh yeah, I can't sell (other than a short sale) because I don't have the funds to close and the banks won't extend me an uncollateralized loan (even though it is already uncollateralized now). What is your answer to that?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:57 | 637838 Hansel
Hansel's picture

Walk away.  Or quit paying the mortgage and continue renting it out.  There is a good chance the bank doesn't have standing to foreclose.  The original note was probably destroyed and your loan is probably part of an MBS.  The "rich elite" got that way because they swindled and stole.  Now is your chance to join the "rich elite" because possession is 9/10 of the law.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:56 | 637839 poorold
poorold's picture

the answer is...stop paying the mortgage, keep paying the condo fees, don't pay the taxes, keep the insurance up...and deposit whatever is leftover from the rent into your bank account.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:34 | 638216 Lucky Guesst
Lucky Guesst's picture

Buy physical gold with whatever you have left. Don't lend it to the bank and allow them to track it at the same time!

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 03:19 | 640416 laughing_swordfish
laughing_swordfish's picture

My zweipfennigs worth:

Pay your taxes and HOA fees, but skip the mortgage. If you live in a "judicial procedure" state, if your mortgage was sliced and diced into an MBS, it's a pretty safe bet the "bank"  can produce neither the original note and/or DOT (deed of trust) and all of the assignment/re-assignment paperwork.

This means that whoever forecloses on you has no standing to do it. However, here in NV both HOA's and the state/county CAN foreclose for unpaid taxes and assessments, and the STATE will always be granted "standing" to get its due.


In fact, that's how I think this will ultimately be settled. Once the states and localities get hard up enough for unpaid taxes and fees on all these foreclosed homes (remember, the banks are NOT paying taxes on REO properties), the states and counties will start foreclosing on all this property and will auction them off with new, Original Grant deeds, wiping out any previous liens/encumbrances. Alternatively, they do have the power of Eminent Domain, and could just "take" the "abandoned" property for the "public purpose" of " creating affordable housing".

Nver underestimate the power of the STATE to just do as it pleases if the situation is drastic enough.

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 03:19 | 640417 laughing_swordfish
laughing_swordfish's picture

My zweipfennigs worth:

Pay your taxes and HOA fees, but skip the mortgage. If you live in a "judicial procedure" state, if your mortgage was sliced and diced into an MBS, it's a pretty safe bet the "bank"  can produce neither the original note and/or DOT (deed of trust) and all of the assignment/re-assignment paperwork.

This means that whoever forecloses on you has no standing to do it. However, here in NV both HOA's and the state/county CAN foreclose for unpaid taxes and assessments, and the STATE will always be granted "standing" to get its due.


In fact, that's how I think this will ultimately be settled. Once the states and localities get hard up enough for unpaid taxes and fees on all these foreclosed homes (remember, the banks are NOT paying taxes on REO properties), the states and counties will start foreclosing on all this property and will auction them off with new, Original Grant deeds, wiping out any previous liens/encumbrances. Alternatively, they do have the power of Eminent Domain, and could just "take" the "abandoned" property for the "public purpose" of " creating affordable housing".

Never underestimate the power of the STATE to just do as it pleases if the situation is drastic enough.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:42 | 637913 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

I don't know where to START junking you on this comment...

for junking Coolidge, or for "buying at a bad time", for continuing to pay your underwater mortgage ( i rent--You NEED to skate on your mortgage so that i can live rent free vicariously thru you) or for getting married, for having your debt with CHASE or for allowing yourself to be "slowly" rammed in the ass......

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 13:04 | 637940 Cvillian
Cvillian's picture

Don't forget the other 7 people that junked the post, guy.

Your feedback is stellar otherwise. I bet you're one hell of a Monday morning quarterback in the office. 


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:56 | 637941 Cvillian
Cvillian's picture


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:46 | 637925 Blankman
Blankman's picture

Answer:  Fuckit.  Everyone complains they want to change the way things are done in this country but are afraid of actually trying to make a change.  I see this situation (mortgage mess) as a great way to make a change in this country.  1000 paper cuts is how to kill the beast, not with weapons or outrage.  Everyone wants to change the world, well the mortgage mess is a great way to do it.  You want to see abrupt change, imagine if everyone in the US stopped paying their mortgage.  Sure there will be initial chaos and perhaps a brief time of tyrannical dictatorship but after that perhaps out of the carnage a phoenix will erupt.  Instead of trying to elect leaders to change the way things are done, stand up and be a leader and show your own strength of conviction by realizing you have been lied to all your life.  Try to wake up everyone else.  Everything we see and take to be truth is all lies fed to us to keep us from ever dissenting.  Once you realize there is no constitution any more the eyes will widen.  Why do you think bankers and lawyers rule everything.  The system has been rigged since ~1938 to the lawyers favor.  He who understands the rules make the rules.  Didn't you ever wonder why you can not represent yourself in court.  It is not for your protection it is for their protection.  Under constitutional law we can represent ourselves.  Under UCC / USC law only a barred lawyer can represent us.     


FYI: I walked away from 3 houses in 2008, reset my life, pay for everything in cash and have begun the learning process into the depths of our financial and legal systems.  Walking away is easy, relearning everything you once thought to be true and honest is the hard part.  That is the fear.  That is why most will not do this.  One of my favorite movie quotes (Dune):  

I must not fear.

Fear is the mind-killer.

Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:45 | 638140 DosZap
DosZap's picture


"Sure there will be initial chaos and perhaps a brief time of tyrannical dictatorship but after that perhaps out of the carnage a phoenix will erupt."

These fuckers do not go away, they get murdered, or you do.

Once embedded, they are like Alabama ticks,except they dopnot drop off.

Castro ring a Bell?.


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:51 | 638251 arby63
arby63's picture

I'm not so sure anymore. This is one big and heavily-armed country. Makes one wonder long and hard about the consequences of chaos and anarchism. Even dictators need backup. This time around I wouldn't be surprised to see everyone stay on their asses and listen to no one about anything. Guess time will tell. Good point nevertheless.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:59 | 638268 RichardP
RichardP's picture

Feel the fear, and do it anyway.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:26 | 638108 DosZap
DosZap's picture


You be as Immoral as the useless fktards that caused your problems,and ruin your character, and your name.

You continue to keep your charater, and your name, until you can no longer DO SO.

When your out of options, then at least you did your best,as far as you could,and can THEN walk with a clean conscience, and a good heart.

Just because someone else robs a store, doesn't give you the right does it?.

How many folks here, have ever BEEN upside down on anything?.

Did you walk it,or did you tough it out,..........your name meant something, you signed a contract, agreeing to terms.

The more normal folks that walk this shit,the worse it will get, and  the more blood will ultimately be shed.

As Celente says, "When you have lost it all, you lose it."


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:34 | 638218 Hansel
Hansel's picture

Mortgages are a business decision.  The contract never said you couldn't walk away.  It is a valid option.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:19 | 638729 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Yep.   There is no morality clause in a mortgage, and no default on the note for moral hazard.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 00:53 | 638900 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Here's hoping their next sob story won't be about how they're being discriminated against by loan officers because of their age, or golf fetish, or whatever else except their troubled credit history.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 16:03 | 638274 RichardP
RichardP's picture

Seek the advice of a real estate attorney.  It matters to your future whether the mortgage is recourse or non-recourse.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 10:15 | 639175 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

I'm off to find celente. I'm going in assuming that it involves some fear based bullshit? Guess I'll find out huh? Check if you are not already familiar.

Seems to me that the fact that so many are unsatisfied ought to indicate at a minimum that a new game is due?

We are apparhently bored with the old one.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 10:28 | 639188 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

Went to see the celente commercial. I say bull fucking shit. Anyone with that kind of matrix peddling cred is a scam. The dude is a plant. He forecast so accurately because he is covert.

Don't be a tool.

Wanna get rich? Go contrary GS.

Psych ops only works on people sniffin' around for a plausible way to keep believing that 'all will be well' or at least knowable. Celente is a fucking establihment fraud, a fucking sheeple Herder.

Follow if it gets your down time up. I am heading elsewhere.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 16:14 | 638295 Coolidge Low
Coolidge Low's picture

If you sold short Apple at $30 and road it to $298 would you ask for you money back?  




Sun, 10/10/2010 - 01:14 | 638912 chopper read
chopper read's picture

this couple would.  


...what a bunch of pussies we've become in america. 

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 11:32 | 639286 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Speak for yourself, Chief.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 17:34 | 639806 chopper read
chopper read's picture

do you think i'd speak for you, you son-of-a-bitch?  :)

are not most Americans proving to be (the proverbial) pussies?  are you not an American?

...what i meant by "what a bunch of pussies we've become in America" was:

"snowball777, you are a pussy".  I hope that is clear enough for you.  ;)

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 23:14 | 638804 Client 9
Client 9's picture


I'm with you bro.  Hang in there and protect your credit rating.  Soon enough your principal balance will be inflated away to virtually nothing anyway.  Unless it's a matter of paying for your food/health care/children's clothes I say do what you believe in and ignore these armchair Yosemite Sams.

Also, I would consistently try to renogiate the rate and see if you can even extract some kind of debt forgiveness.  Play the game bro.  You've got options.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 08:49 | 639025 chindit13
chindit13's picture

I was sitting in a tea shop the other day in the place I happen to reside, and a young girl about fifteen sat down on the curb near my table. She had a gruesome looking abcess on her right shin, that was eating away the tibia and pushing shards of it through her skin.  She started pulling shards of her own bone out and tossing them on the ground.  A mangy cat ran up and began eating them.

The young girl was from a northern tribe, and after her parents had died she came to the big city to try to make a go of her life.  She had no money, no family, no job.  Her nation has no social services, no welfare, no free medical care, no entitlements and no sense of entitlement.  She had had the abscess for quite some time.  She assumed it was cancer and she would die soon.  That thought didn't bother her much, as she did not see such a bright future for herself.  She wasn't even complaining, nor was she looking for sympathy.  Tough as nails.  I only know her story because I can speak her language and asked her, before heading to the hospital (doc says she'll be okay after the anti-biotics and a good cleansing). Yea, I know, boo hoo.  Serves her right for getting herself born in a Third World hellhole, when smart people got themselves born in the US of A where if you fuck up overpaying for a home, the taxpayer will cover your ass.

Maybe I'm a fool or have too soft of a heart, but I find it easier to have empathy for this girl than for somebody who paid top tick for a home and now realizes it was a mistake and expects relief from the error.  It's all relative, I guess.  Good luck to you.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 10:37 | 639206 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

I pray to God that you are not serious? Yeah, I know that shit happens. Worse shit happens.

Makes me (we) want to collapse.

I suppose we should.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 12:00 | 639321 chindit13
chindit13's picture

It's real, but she'll be okay.  There's a whole lot of life-threatening problems in this world that can solved for a very small amount of money and time.  We all just tend to waste too much of both. 

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 21:51 | 640004 nmewn
nmewn's picture

+ 10 chin.

Thanks for the dose of reality.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 12:07 | 639331 fiftybagger
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40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25
King James Version





Sun, 10/10/2010 - 23:56 | 640231 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

thank you for these posts chindit, a better illustration of the privileges taken for granted in amrka has never been posted here.

the so called "human rights" myth sold over and over, and rarely questioned as truth only seems to apply to certain peoples on this planet - when in fact, those "rights" may be extended temporarily to a privileged few (in comparison to the whole), and they're about to be clawed back in a graphic way over time.

not special, not unique, just lied to.




Mon, 10/11/2010 - 01:30 | 640313 chindit13
chindit13's picture

You posted another comment in this thread or the Tavakoli one (I cannot seem to locate it amongst the thousands), which when I read it had only one "junk".  I would have thought there'd be more, albeit for reasons of ego.  You noted the natural advantages that come as a result of birth accidents, as in someone being born a certain race and gender in a certain country at an auspicious time in human history, then attributing any success they may have had in life solely to their own determination and hard work.

I know full well how true that is, and realize my own accident of birth pretty much made failure in life, if it had come, the only surprise.  Of course there is no way to counter this natural advantage, and one should not refrain from using what one inherited, but I do think we all should take a little time to appreciate what random chance handed us, and turn a less critical eye towards those who came out on the short end of the stick.  Yes, we all have things to overcome, but some obstacles are greater than others, and a little humility is not such a bad thing. 

Mon, 10/11/2010 - 21:55 | 642262 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

it would do many amrkns a world of good to spend time in countries considered "third world" - not a vacation, but say, a year or three of actually having to live amongst those who have had less opportunities to achieve what is considered important in this country - the acquisition of things and monies in particular. . .at the very least, it would slow down the mindless consumption that characterises amrkns in the world, and perhaps even develop compassion that might override the competitiveness that is such a prized characteristic here.

I was born in SoCal, grew up in chaotic poverty, left as soon as I was legally able to make that choice (adult), and I'm grateful for having held my breath and jumped. . . there are many intersecting "labels" we all get to bear, some give us a leg up, some a smack down - but if we don't acknowledge this, then we are distant from our own truths, and life will have to show us some necessary lessons. . .

which is where a lot of people in this country are headed, and while I can understand their anger, resentment, etc. - it's just a turn of the page, not really so personal, even though media is framing that dialogue, as always. . .

"a little humility" is essential to being called "human". . .

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:36 | 637814 Eureka Springs
Eureka Springs's picture

Sounds like Wells Fargo played loose and fast with their Hamp game... could be some fraud there, no? It seems to be the tipping point for this couple.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:57 | 637841 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Due to spending an extra day making sure I have a bolt hole in an un-named south american country, I was a single day late on a mortgage payment. Once in 10 years. Wells Fargo called and told my wife we were in danger of being foreclosed on, but our Beloved Leader had a program to lower our payments. All we had to do was sign on to a variable rate that the cocksucking thief at Wells did not know the upper rate.

She told them to go fuck themselves, and to pass that suggestion to our Beloved Leader. They were not amused. Can't think why they'd be pissed at getting payed.

Strange times.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:27 | 638110 Freebird
Freebird's picture

Welcome Ratty, we know where you are :)

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:44 | 638137 Rodent Freikorps
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Since I'm not disguising my IP, I'm overjoyed to know the Feds are not totally incompetent.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:49 | 638146 DosZap
DosZap's picture


You think your IP is disguised?.LOL

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:54 | 638155 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

I said "not". Am I gonna have to rent a place in Matamoros?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:42 | 638230 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture
Seriously, you guys keep giving me these lay-ups, and I'm gonna have to think at least 50% of the Federal Government of the United States of America are still on the side of the light.

Almost gives me reason to hope.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 16:04 | 638275 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Did I mention that my wife just fucking rocks? I am ready for anything.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:20 | 638731 doolittlegeorge
doolittlegeorge's picture

awwww.  that's cute.  must be your fine set of chopppers you got there Rodent.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 02:07 | 638952 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

I would have put it down to her being able to put  a round through your eye at 600 yards, and laugh about it, but you may be right.

Who can tell with women?

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:48 | 637929 Pondmaster
Pondmaster's picture

Man , you need some prozac !

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:34 | 638122 Dburn
Dburn's picture

The first lie in that post was "Man, I feel for these people" as you go on to trash them in the rest of the post. In fact, I'm willing to bet your pretty pleased with their situation. A little payback maybe?  Guess what, that computer your typing your bullshit on was a product of the Me generation. So is most of the stuff you use day in and day out.  Fucking up the economy was cross generational. There was plenty of before and after generations that were there to light this candle and your generation along with the rest were there to fan it into flames.

Don't hold yourself in high esteem. You have nothing to be proud of , trust me . No one would write like that if they actaully done soemthing with their lives

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 22:30 | 638741 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I'm one of those old farts.  I recall being 10 years old in 1958, day after Christmas, living in Palm Bay, Florida.  I was heart broken.  My friends were getting transistor radios for gifts and I didn't get one.  They were about $30 and my folks just couldn't afford it.  What was $30 back then -- a couple of hundred dollars today.  And that was just AM radio.  The Japanese took that technology and ran with it, but the whole thing started here.  Carry that to the present day and you are right Dburn -- you iShit brats can stick it.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 00:16 | 638865 chopper read
chopper read's picture

ha, ha.  i love the 'age warfare'.  it makes me laugh.  thanks for the internet, guys.  the deficit? - not so much.  :)

we're doing fine with our lives.  we just like to pick on you old fuckers to see if you're still kicking.  i'm loving the attitude.  keep it coming.  :)

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 00:57 | 642545 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

It will be your turn some day.  I'll be gone but, I hope you have a country worth caring for.  That's up to you.  It really is no big deal.  We'll all survive and it'll be a helluva ride.  I have lived in the most progressive and richest history man has ever known.

Tue, 10/12/2010 - 01:16 | 642561 chopper read
chopper read's picture


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:48 | 638123 Dburn
Dburn's picture


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 14:38 | 638129 DosZap
DosZap's picture



–verb (used with object), -tled, -tling. 1. to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnish with grounds for laying claim.

How can you GIVE something to a person they have GIVEN their own MONEY FOR?.

Seems that falls under grounds for laying CLAIM(to what is theirs already).

If you had set aside $200k, and I TOOK it,(you had no choice) would you not try/want/all some of it back?.

If no, please send me an email, so I can forward you a Bank transfer number............

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 19:27 | 638513 drwells
drwells's picture

Of course you'll be junked to death before I finish this comment. You're either with the homedebtors or you're with the banksters. Same problem people seem to have with D and R. They just can't get that it's two sides of the same thing.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 00:21 | 638859 chopper read
chopper read's picture

Maybe we should publish stories on how the "me" generation of baby boomer lucusts have destroyed the economy and are now crying like whining babies because they have to take responsibility for their actions.


+1, "the weakest generation".   ha, ha. :)     ...never before have so few resources been squandered by so many.  its true!








Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:00 | 637754 surfsup
surfsup's picture

R.I.C.O. bitchez

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:01 | 637757 RagnarDanneskjold
RagnarDanneskjold's picture

If history is a guide, the strongman will be more on the order of Oliver Cromwell. A man leads the National Rifle Association to victory in a brief civil war, some politicians are shot, Mexico or Canada get invaded and cede some land, and then everything reverts back.

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 11:02 | 637759 Traveler-2
Traveler-2's picture

Finally the middle class is catching on to what it created--let the good times roll!!

Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:45 | 637922 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 12:47 | 637924 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture


Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:27 | 638206 Incubus
Incubus's picture

they'll throw a tantrum until someone sticks another pacifier in their mouths.


You're over-estimating the average person's sense of justice/moral compass:  just conjure up some new & "stable" [for now] fiat currency to replace the dollar with, and they'll go back to coddling their earthly possessions and investments.  They're only looking out for themselves, and if they weren't dragged into this, they couldn't care less about anyone else who happened to be less fortunate than they.

I just think it's sickening how anyone would attempt to drape themselves in some morally righteous agenda, when really, they're just self-serving.




Sat, 10/09/2010 - 15:56 | 638259 Misstrial
Misstrial's picture



Sat, 10/09/2010 - 20:43 | 638609 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

+ another 1000.

time to lose the sense of entitled privilege.

Sun, 10/10/2010 - 00:27 | 638874 chopper read
chopper read's picture

+ 1000 x 1000.


Volcker raises rates to 20% to protect the brand-name fiat.  Rates have been coming down ever since, and these losers want to keep skating for another 30 years?  



ha, ha.  get ready for some reality, bitchez!

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