• Econophile
    03/18/2010 - 13:42
    We think that China is an indestructible economic juggernaut but its economy is very fragile and it is sitting on a property bubble which will burst. What China does in response has major implications for their economy and the rest of the world. This is the third part of a three-part series on this topic: The Consequences.
  • Reggie Middleton
    03/18/2010 - 07:54
    The Greek saga continues, exactly as was anticipated. For all of those who don't regularly read me, this is really not about Greece but about the start of either default or significant depression throughout a large swath of the Eurozone. Greece is the firestarter and it looks as if we are starting to burn...

This Is The Government: Your Legal Right To Redeem Your Money Market Account Has Been Denied

Tyler Durden's picture




When Henry Paulson publishes his long-awaited memoirs, the one section that will be of most interest to readers, will be the former Goldmanite and Secretary of the Treasury's recollection of what, in his opinion, was the most unpredictable and dire consequence of letting Lehman fail (letting his former employer become the number one undisputed Fixed Income trading entity in the world was quite predictable... plus we doubt it will be a major topic of discussion in Hank's book). We would venture to guess that the Reserve money market fund breaking the buck will be at the very top of the list, as the ensuing "run on the electronic bank" was precisely the 21st century equivalent of what happened to banks in physical form, during the early days of the Geat Depression. Had the lack of confidence in the system persisted for a few more hours, the entire financial world would have likely collapsed, as was so vividly recalled by Rep. Paul Kanjorski, once a barrage of electronic cash withdrawal requests depleted this primary spoke of the entire shadow economy. Ironically, money market funds are supposed to be the stalwart of safety and security among the plethora of global investment alternatives: one need only to look at their returns to see what the presumed composition of their investments is. A case in point, Fidelity's $137 billion Cash Reserves fund has a return of 0.61% YTD, truly nothing to write home about, and a return that would have been easily beaten putting one's money in Treasury Bonds. This is not surprising, as the primary purpose of money markets is to provide virtually instantaneous access to a portfolio of practically risk-free investment alternatives: a typical investor in a money market seeks minute investment risk, no volatility, and instantaneous liquidity, or redeemability. These are the three pillars upon which the entire $3.3 trillion money market industry is based.

Yet new regulations proposed by the administration, and specifically by the ever-incompetent Securities and Exchange Commission, seek to pull one of these three core pillars from the foundation of the entire money market industry, by changing the primary assumptions of the key Money Market Rule 2a-7. A key proposal in the overhaul of money market regulation suggests that money market fund managers will have the option to "suspend redemptions to allow for the orderly liquidation of fund assets." You read that right: this does not refer to the charter of procyclical, leveraged, risk-ridden, transsexual (allegedly) portfolio manager-infested hedge funds like SAC, Citadel, Glenview or even Bridgewater (which in light of ADIA's latest batch of problems, may well be wishing this was in fact the case), but the heart of heretofore assumed safest and most liquid of investment options: Money Market funds, which account for nearly 40% of all investment company assets. The next time there is a market crash, and you try to withdraw what you thought was "absolutely" safe money, a back office person will get back to you saying, "Sorry - your money is now frozen. Bank runs have become illegal." This is precisely the regulation now proposed by the administration. In essence, the entire US capital market is now a hedge fund, where even presumably the safest investment tranche can be locked out from within your control when the ubiquitous "extraordinary circumstances" arise. The second the game of constant offer-lifting ends, and money markets are exposed for the ponzi investment proxies they are, courtesy of their massive holdings of Treasury Bills, Reverse Repos, Commercial Paper, Agency Paper, CD, finance company MTNs and, of course, other money markets, and you decide to take your money out, well - sorry, you are out of luck. It's the law.

A brief primer on money markets

A very succinct explanation of what money markets are was provided by none other than SEC's Luis Aguilar on June 24, 2009, when he was presenting the case for making even the possibility of money market runs a thing of the past. To wit:

Money market funds were founded nearly 40 years ago. And, as is well known, one of the hallmarks of money market funds is their ability to maintain a stable net asset value — typically at a dollar per share.


In the time they have been around, money market funds have grown enormously — from $180 billion in 1983 (when Rule 2a-7 was first adopted), to $1.4 trillion at the end of 1998, to approximately $3.8 trillion at the end of 2008, just ten years later. The Release in front of us sets forth a number of informative statistics but a few that are of particular interest are the following: today, money market funds account for approximately 39% of all investment company assets; about 80% of all U.S. companies use money market funds in managing their cash balances; and about 20% of the cash balances of all U.S. households are held in money market funds. Clearly, money market funds have become part of the fabric by which families, and companies manage their financial affairs.

When the Reserve fund broke the buck, and it seemed like an all-out rout of money markets was inevitable, the result would have been a virtual elimination of capital access by everyone: from households to companies. This reverberated for months, as the also presumably extremely safe Commercial Paper market was the next to freeze up, side by side with all traditional forms of credit. Only after the Fed stepped in an guaranteed money markets, and turned on the liquidity stabilization first, then quantitative easing spigot second, did things go back to some sort of new normal. However, it is only a matter of time before the patchwork of band aids holding the dam together is once again exposed, and a new, stronger and, well, "improved" run on the electronic bank materializes. It is precisely this contingency that the SEC and the administration are preparing for by "empowering money market fund boards of directors to suspend redemptions in extraordinary circumstances to protect the interests of fund shareholders."

A little more on money markets:

Money market funds seek to limit exposure to losses due to credit, market, and liquidity risks. Money market funds, in the United States, are regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission's (SEC) Investment Company Act of 1940. Rule 2a-7 of the act restricts investments in money market funds by quality, maturity and diversity. Under this act, a money fund mainly buys the highest rated debt, which matures in under 13 months. The portfolio must maintain a weighted average maturity (WAM) of 90 days or less and not invest more than 5% in any one issuer, except for government securities and repurchase agreements.

Ironically, the proposed change to Rule 2a-7 seeks to make dramatic changes to the composition of MMs: from 90 days, the WAM would get shortened to 60 days. And this is occurring at a time when the government is desperately seeking to find ways of extending maturities and durations of short-term debt instruments: by reverse rolling the $3.2 trillion industry, the impetus will be precisely the reverse of what should be happening, as more ultra-short maturity instruments are horded up, leaving a dead zone in the 60-90 day maturity window. Some other proposed changes to 2a-7 include "prohibiting the funds from investing in Second Tier securities, as defined in Rule 2a-7. Eligible securities would be redefined as securities receiving only the highest, rather than the highest two, short-term debt ratings from a requisite nationally recognized securities rating  organization. Further, money market funds would be permitted to acquire long-term unrated securities only if they have received long-term ratings in the highest two, rather than the highest three, ratings categories." In other words, let's make them so safe, that when the time comes, nobody will have access to them. Brilliant.

The utility of money market funds has long been questioned by such systemically-embedded financial luminaries as Paul Volcker (more on this in a minute). After all, what are money markets if merely an easy, and 401(k)-eligible option to not invest in equity or bonds, but in "paper" which is cash in all but name (maybe not so much after the proposed Rule change passes). And as money markets account for a huge portion of the $11 trillion of mutual fund assets as of November (per ICI, whose opinion, incidentally, was instrumental in shaping future money market policy), $3.3 trillion to be precise, and second only to stock funds at $4.8 trillion, one can see why an administration, hell bent on recreating a stock-price bubble, would do all it can to make money markets extremely unattractive. In fact, the current administration has been on a roll on this regard: i) keeping money market rates at record lows, ii) removing money market fund guarantees and iii) and even allowing reverse repos to use money markets as sources of liquidity (because we all know that the collateral behind the banks shadow banking arrangement with the Fed are literally crap; as we have noted before, we will continue claiming this until the Fed disproves us by opening up their books for full inspection. Until then, yes, the Fed has lent out hundreds of billions against bankrupt company equity, as we have pointed out in the past).  Money Markets are the easiest recourse that idiotic class of Americans known as "savers" has to give the big bank oligarchs, the Fed and the bubble-inflating Administration the middle finger. As you will recall, recently Arianna Huffington has been soliciting all Americans do just that: to move their money out of the tentacles of the TBTFs. In essence, the money market optionality is precisely the equivalent of moving physical money from TBTFs to community banks in the "shadow economy." Because where there is $3.3 trillion out of $11, there could easily be $11 trillion out of $11, which would destroy the whole concept of Fed-spearheaded asset-price inflation, and would destroy overnight the TBTFs, as equities would once again find their fair value. It is no surprise then, that the current financial system, and its political cronies loathe the concept of Money Markets, and have done all they could to make them as unattractive as possible. Below is a chart of the Net Assets held by all US money market funds and the number of money market mutual funds since January 2008:

Obviously, attempts to push capital out of MMs have succeeded: after peaking at $3.9 trillion, currently money markets hold a two year low of $3.27 trillion. Furthermore, the number of actual money market fund operations has been substantially hit: from 2,078 in the days after the Lehman implosion, this is now down to 1,828, a 12% reduction. At this rate soon there won't be all that many money market funds to chose from. While the AUM reduction is explicable through the previously mentioned three factors, the actual reduction in number of funds is on the surface not quite a straightforward, and will likely be the topic a future Zero Hedge post. Although, the impetus of managing money when one can return at most 0.6% annually, and charge fees on this "return" may be missing - the answer may be far simpler than we think. Why run a money market, when the Fed will be happy to issue you a bank charter, and you can collect much more, risk free, courtesy of the vertical yield curve.

Yet what is strange is that even with all the adverse consequences of holding cash in Money Markets, the total AUM of this "safest" investment option is still substantial, at nearly $3.3 trillion as of December 30, a big decline yes, but a decline that should have been much greater considering even the president since March 3 has been beckoning his daily viewership to invest in cheap stocks courtesy of low "profit and earning ratios" (that, and the specter of President's Working Group on Financial Markets). Could this action, whereby investors will no longer have access to money that historically has been sacrosanct and reachable and disposable on a moment's notice, be the last nail in the coffin of money markets? We believe so, however, we are not sure if it will attain the desired effect. With an aging baby boomer population, which would rather burn their money than invest in the stock market again and relive the roller-coaster days of late 2008 and early 2009, the plan may well backfire, and result in even more money leaving the shadow system and entering such tangible objects as deposit accounts (at community banks, of course), mattresses and socks. And speaking of the President's Working Group...

The Group of Thirty

When discussing the shadow economy, it is only fitting to discuss the shadow decision-makers. In this regard, the Group of 30, is to the traditional economic decision-making process as the President's Working Group is to capital markets. Taken from the website, the self-description reads innocently enough:

The Group of Thirty, established in 1978, is a private, nonprofit, international body composed of very senior representatives of the private and public sectors and academia. It aims to deepen understanding of international economic and financial issues, to explore the international repercussions of decisions taken in the public and private sectors, and to examine the choices available to market practitioners and policymakers.

The Group's members meet in plenary sessions twice a year with select guests to discuss important economic, financial and policy developments. They reach out to a wider audience in seminars and symposia.  Of most importance to our membership and supporters is the annual International Banking Seminar.

Sounds like any old D.C.-based think tank... until one looks at the roster of members:

  • Paul A. Volcker, Chairman of the Board of Trustees, Group of Thirty, Former Chairman, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
  • Jacob A. Frenkel, Chairman, Group of Thirty, Vice Chairman, American International Group, Former Governor, Bank of Israel
  • Jean-Claude Trichet, President, European Central Bank, Former Governor, Banque de France
  • Zhou Xiaochuan, Governor, People’s Bank of China, Former President, China Construction Bank, Former Asst. Minister of Foreign Trade
  • Yutaka Yamaguchi, Former Deputy Governor, Bank of Japan, Former Chairman, Euro Currency Standing Commission
  • William McDonough, Vice Chairman and Special Advisor to the Chairman, Merrill Lynch, Former Chairman, Public Company Accounting Oversight Board, Former President, Federal Reserve Bank of New York
  • Richard A. Debs, Advisory Director, Morgan Stanley, Former President, Morgan Stanley International, Former COO, Federal Reserve Bank of New York
  • Abdulatif Al-Hamad, Chairman, Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development, Former Minister of Finance and Minister of Planning, Kuwait
  • William R. Rhodes, Senior Vice Chairman, Citigroup, Chairman, President and CEO, Citicorp and Citibank
  • Ernest Stern, Partner and Senior Advisor, The Rohatyn Group, Former Managing Director, JPMorgan Chase, Former Managing Director, World Bank
  • Jaime Caruana, Financial Counsellor, International Monetary Fund, Former Governor, Banco de España, Former Chairman, Basel Committee on Banking Supervision
  • E. Gerald Corrigan, Managing Director, Goldman Sachs Group, Inc., Former President, Federal Reserve Bank of New York
  • Andrew D. Crockett, President, JPMorgan Chase International, Former General Manager, Bank for International Settlements
  • Guillermo de la Dehesa Romero, Director and Member of the Executive Committee, Grupo Santander, Former Deputy Managing Director, Banco de España, Former Secretary of State, Ministry of Economy and Finance, Spain
  • Mario Draghi, Governor, Banca d’Italia, Chairman, Financial Stability Forum, Member of the Governing and General Councils, European Central Bank, Former Vice Chairman and Managing Director, Goldman Sachs International
  • Martin Feldstein, Professor of Economics, Harvard University, President Emeritus, National Bureau of Economic Research, Former Chairman, Council of Economic Advisers
  • Roger W. Ferguson, Jr., Chief Executive, TIAA-CREF, Former Chairman, Swiss Re America Holding Corporation, Former Vice Chairman, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
  • Stanley Fischer, Governor, Bank of Israel, Former First Managing Director, International Monetary Fund
  • Philipp Hildebrand, Vice Chairman of the Governing Board, Swiss National Bank, Former Partner, Moore Capital Management
  • Paul Krugman, Professor of Economics, Woodrow Wilson School, Princeton University, Former Member, Council of Economic Advisors
  • Kenneth Rogoff, Thomas D. Cabot Professor of Public Policy and Economics, Harvard University, Former Chief Economist and Director of Research, IMF

and, of course:

  • Timothy F. Geithner, President and Chief Executive Officer, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Former U.S. Undersecretary of Treasury for International Affairs
  • Lawrence Summers, Charles W. Eliot University Professor, Harvard University, Former President, Harvard University, Former U.S. Secretary of the Treasury

and many more. Given the choice of being a fly on the wall at a G7 meeting or that of the "Group of 30", we would be very curious to see who would pick the former over the latter. These are the people, whose "reports" and groupthink determines the financial fate of the world: their vested interest in perpetuating the status quo is second to none. Which is why we read with great interest a recent paper from the Group of 30: Financial Reform, A Framework for Financial Stability, released on January 15, 2009, deep in the heart of the crisis. While the paper has enough insight for many, non-related posts (we are already working on several), we will focus on the policy recommendations presented for money market funds.

Money Market Mutual Funds and Supervision


Recommendation 3:


a. Money market mutual funds wishing to continue to offer bank-like services, such as transaction account services, withdrawals on demand at par, and assurances of maintaining a stable net asset value (NAV) at par should be required to reorganize as special-purpose banks, with appropriate prudential regulation and supervision, government insurance, and access to central bank lender-of-last-resort facilities.


b. Those institutions remaining as money market mutual funds should only offer a conservative investment option with modest upside potential at relatively low risk. The vehicles should be clearly differentiated from federally insured instruments offered by banks, such as money market deposit funds, with no explicit or implicit assurances to investors that funds can be withdrawn on demand at a stable NAV. Money market mutual funds should not be permitted to use amortized cost pricing, with the implication that they carry a fluctuating NAV rather than one that is pegged at US$1.00 per share.

The phrasing of "with no explicit or implicit assurances to investors that funds can be withdrawn on demand at a stable NAV" should be sufficient to whiten the hairs of every proponent of money markets as a "safe" investment alternative. Yet what the SEC has done, is to take the Group of 30 recommendation, and take it to the next level: not only will funds not have explicit assurance of any kind vis-a-vis funding, but in fact, the redemption of said funds would be legally barred upon "extraordinary circumstances."

Rule 22e-3

From the SEC:

Proposed rule 22e–3(a) would permit a money market fund to suspend redemptions if: (i) The fund’s current price per share, calculated pursuant to rule 2a–7(c), is less than the fund’s stable net asset value per share; (ii) its board of directors, including a majority of directors who are not interested  persons, approves the liquidation of the fund; and (iii) the fund, prior to suspending redemptions, notifies the Commission of its decision to liquidate and suspend redemptions, by electronic mail directed to the attention of our Director of the Division of Investment Management or the Director’s designee. These proposed conditions are intended to ensure that any suspension of redemptions will be consistent with the underlying policies of section 22(e). We understand that suspending redemptions may impose hardships on investors who rely on their ability to redeem shares. Accordingly, our proposal is limited to permitting suspension of this statutory protection only in extraordinary circumstances. Thus, the proposed conditions, which are similar to those of the temporary rule, are designed to limit the availability of the rule to circumstances that present a significant risk of a run on the fund. Moreover, the exemption would require action of the fund board (including the independent directors), which would be acting in its capacity as a fiduciary. The proposed rule contains an additional provision that would permit us to take steps to protect investors. Specifically, the proposed rule would permit us to rescind or modify the relief provided by the rule (and thus require the fund to resume honoring redemptions) if, for example, a liquidating fund has not devised, or is not properly executing, a plan of liquidation that protects fund shareholders. Under this provision, the Commission may modify the relief ‘‘after appropriate notice and opportunity for hearing,’’ in accordance with section 40 of the Act.

Lots of keywords there: "fiduciary", "impose hardships" but most notably "permit us to take steps to protect investors." Uh, SEC, no thanks. We can protect ourselves. Your protection so far has resulted in the Madoff scandal, the BofA fiasco, billions in insider trading profits and not one guilty person, who did not manage to escape unscathed with merely a wrist slap in the form of some pathetic fine. With all due respect, SEC, any proposal that involves you acting to "protect" us should be immediately banned and any further discussion ended.

Especially in this case: what the SEC is proposing is simple - the entire market structure has been converted to a hedge fund. When investors hear the word "suspend redemptions" they envisioned a battered, pro-cyclical, leveraged, permabullish hedge fund, that suddenly "found itself" down 30, 40, 50 or more percent, and to avoid instantaneous liquidation, had to bar redemptions. Forgive us, but is the SEC confirming that the entire market is now one big casino, one big government subsidized hedge fund, where as long as things go up, all is good, but the second things take a leg down, just like any ponzi, nobody will be allowed to pull their money? Maybe Madoff should have created the same redemption suspension: his fund would still be alive and thriving, now that the government has become the biggest ponzi conductor of all time. And nobody would have been the wiser. But instead, the Securities and Exchange Commission, in discussions with the Group of 30, Barney Frank, and any other conflicted individuals who only care about protecting their own money for one more year, has decided, in its infinite wisdom, to make money markets a complete scam. And this is the gist of regulatory reform in America.

Conclusion

At this point it is without doubt that even the government understands that when things turn sour, and they will, the run on the bank will be unavoidable: their solution - prevent money from being dispensed, when that moment comes. The thing about crises, be they liquidity, solvency, or plain-vanilla, is that "price discovery" occurs all at once, and at the very same time. And all too often, investors "discover" they were lied to, as the emperor, in any fiat system, always has no clothes. Just like in September 2008, when the banks were forced to look at each-others' balance sheet and realize that there are no real assets on the left backing up the liabilities on the right, so the moment of enlightenment occurs are the most importune time: just ask Hank Paulson. Had he known his action of beefing up Goldman's FICC trading axes would have resulted in the "Ice-Nine'ing" (to borrow a Mark Pittman term) of money markets, who knows- maybe Lehman would have still been alive. Perhaps risking the cash access of 20% of US households and 80% of companies was not worth the few extra zeroes in Goldman's EPS. But we will never know. What we will know, is that now i) the government is all too aware that the market has become one huge ponzi, and that all investment vehicles, even the safest ones, are subject to bank runs, and ii) that said bank runs, will occur. It is only a matter of time. And just as the president told everyone directly to buy the market on March 3, so the SEC, the Group of 30, and Barney Frank are telling us all, much less directly, to get the hell out of Dodge. Alternatively, the game of "last fool in", holding the burning hot potato, can continue indefinitely, until such time as the marginal utility of each and every dollar printed by Ben Bernanke is zero.

h/t Geoffrey Batt

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by bugs_
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 11:20
#181139

Way to go TD.

Our dollars in MMF have been "virtualized"

and are no longer really ours.

by Rainman
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 11:44
#181154

Our Masters have concluded that puny returns are insufficient to unwind the sheeple's newly found cash saving habits. Therefore, it is necessary to impose risk on the timid and skeptical.

Get out there and buy a Kindle, a house or a car.....or else.  

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 12:40
#181191

Would this play to AU's advantage?

I know of wealthy people who are disposing of assets, closing businesses and patriating all their $$$ to gold. They plan to live very simply, travel, declare their income to the IRS at what it is (just barely below the taxable rate which extracts from them), and live on savings until this thing either collapses or sorts out.

This gov't doesn't regard your hard-earned savings as your sacrosanct possession, and mandates that it be put at risk. However there are few acceptable risks anymore, and the currency really can't be trusted.

We are in a financial no-mans-land, and only a fool would layer on greater chains to bind him down by playing by THEIR rules anymore.

by ATG
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:06
#181213

Try getting gold through a metal detector,

or suffer the haircuts and frauds on paper gold.

Non starters both.

Cash just beginning to awaken as king...

http://www.jubileeprosperity.com/

 

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:23
#181230

Not everybody is an idiot enough to be living in the United States. And just in case you didn't know, GOLD IS AVAILABLE ALL OVER THE FUCKING WORLD.

by Ripped Chunk
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 11:49
#182029

"GOLD IS AVAILABLE ALL OVER THE FUCKING WORLD."

Must be watching one of those "limited edition gold coin" infomercials at 3:00 AM. (personally, I was tuned into "riches in real estate" myself)

MORON

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 20:56
#182592

Ugh.

Lehman never rivalled goldies in FI trading....the world is not a giant conspiracy theory, son

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:26
#181232

You're an idiot.

by Andy Dufresne
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:21
#181363

ROFLMAO hahahahahahahahaha

by nicholsong
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 16:57
#181449

I agree. But there are interesting stories out there regarding gold. Like this one: Pak has gold reserves worth trillions of dollars

by Careless Whisper
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:11
#181465

 

@ATG  The Federal Reserve was created in 1913 and one of its "missions" is to influence monetary conditions in order to stabilize prices.

LOL

Compute for yourself, inflation since 1913;

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ 

by DosZap
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:32
#182147

This was a bit of a shocker, the comment...............

Trillions?, how about using some of it to come out of the Stone Age.

In HIS times,

"Silver, was as plentiful as stones in the streets"..............similar sounding.

On the Topic, are these dudes TRYING to start a RUN?.

Personally TD, I appreciate the heads up................

Anyone here????, your opinons on Perth, as a vehicle to offshore it, legally, allocated only.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:16
#181521

I agree with you but those new body scanners sure do look convenient to preventing you flying (for now restricted to airports) with anything substantive...

by MsCreant
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:14
#181693

It's like they are hemming us in and corraling us, isn't it?

by carbonmutant
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 15:06
#182278

I'm reminded of the Aesop's fable of the Lion and the Fox.

"I see many tracks going in, I see none coming out"

by chumbawamba
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:41
#181252

Another bullshit FUD turd.  You seem to drop a lot of them around any discussion of gold.  You're so obvious it's painful.

Have fun wiping your ass with your paper monetary instruments when your heroes pull the plug.

I am Chumbawamba.

by Anonymous
on Tue, 01/12/2010 - 21:54
#191932

Could not have said it better.

by Rusty Shorts
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 14:30
#181314

@ATG,

 

Try getting cash through a metal detector dip-shit... it has to do with the metalic filament in the security strip inbedded in the larger bills, get enough of them together in one spot and the signal that is returned from the detector can be picked up.

 

I am not Chumbawamba.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:42
#181720

The fact that Goldman Sachs re released their book, one year after it’s original copyright date of Sept of 2008, in response to conspiracy theories, proves that the theories have some validity. It’s suspicious enough that the book, a 100 years in the making, was released just one month before the stock market crash. Yes, in the newly revised “Introduction” chapter, Goldman Sachs uses the word conspiracy. I am thrilled that the few of use that wrote on the subject had such an impact that Goldman Sachs found it nesscecary to re release their book.
They also added a last chapter entitled “A Perfect Storm” of course after they could see how Paulson’s inspired plot to crash the markets, and then loot the US Treasury played out. This new last chapter (released one year later) is preceeded by a chapter entitled “Before the Storm.” How cute is that? “Before the Storm” and a “Perfect Storm.” Well get this.
The 1st version came out one month before the stock market crash, and so them using the title “Before the Storm” many months before the crash, making Goldman look a hell of a lot smarter than anyone else. And the fact that they used the word “Before” in the heading of the last chapter of the book, insinuates that they are planning to re release their book after the crash?
“The Partnership,” 1st version in 2008, released months before the market crash, is Goldman Sachs feeble attempt to rewrite history, and to prime us on what to believe about the upcoming crash, and lastly to paint a fabulous picture of the last 100 years of Wall Street with Goldman Sachs as King.
One only needs to read the last chapter “Paulson’s Disciplines” to get a feeling of the idea of how this man could of went to the White House to be Treasury under Bush with a pre meditated plan to loot America for $700 billion.
Or read the following chapter “Before the Storm,”on Lloyd Blankflien, Paulson’s successor, where they confess their profits of 3 billion dollars betting against sub prime in 2007, while their main man Paulson is at the White House, as Treasury under Bush, acting like he didn’t see the real estate thing coming? I guess if sub prime loans, were to be the scapegoat, might as well get heir side of the story out in print first.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 10:34
#181965

Very interesting.

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:40
#182162

The people have the power to stop the FED dead in it's tracks.

We need to organize our OWN banking holiday.

Maybe the last business day of the quarter or on $th of July,

We all show up at the bank and demand our money.

The concept of de-leverage really packs punch at Wall Street.

Lets force the issue now, thereby hopefully having more control over the out come of the situation.

Because the people are "Too Small To Fail" we will over comer the money men some day. It is profitzied.

TD, why are you still in the game?

Patrick the Painter

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 10:37
#181967

RE: The fact that Goldman Sachs re released their book, one year after it’s original copyright date of Sept of 2008, in response to conspiracy theories.......

As I was trying to say above:
Goldman Sachs uses the word "Before" in the title "Before the Storm" for the last chapter in the book "The Partnership: The Making of Goldman Sachs.

The stock market crashes one month after the release date of the first version. One year later, Goldman Sachs re releases the book, except they add a new last chapter, entitled "The Perfect Storm."

It makes it seem as though they knew the stock market was going to crash. The new version is in paper back and is only $20 versus the $40 for the first version. They realy want you to own a copy of this "new history."

ViVi Goldman Sachs

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 14:50
#182252

Bravo. Further to that dissect the events. A money market fund with 750 million in Lehman commercial paper broke
the buck when Lehman couldn't make good on the loan.
At that point the Fed could of stepped in to backstop
the trade they chose not to letting Lehman go. Bernanke claimed they had no authority to step in that's a lie. They had the authority the argument is Bernanke and Paulson needed to create a sense of urgency in Washington to get them to pass the bailout. Only it backfired it cost us much more in the long run. Barclays claims they passed
on buying Lehman because the fed wouldn't guarantee the
risk like they did with the shotgun marriage of Bear and
JP Morgan Chase. I have been in the debt capital markets
for over two decades and I have never seen anything like
what has gone on in this country in the last two years
it is a disgrace.

by DosZap
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:39
#182159

Just don't try getting anything close to 10 Lge thru............

Their is a legal way to get Gld out  anyone noticed how hard it is to find Krugs of late?.

They are not legal tender..........so, I see no reason / way they can stop you from carrying out what you want.(if I am incorrect, pls correct me).

by mnevins2
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 14:48
#181325

ATG, I see that "the usual suspects" are irate and attacking whenever their "holy grail" of G-O-L-D is questioned.

I've given up with this crew in regard to this subject. They never provide "light," just heat, profanities and insults.

In truth, I indeed enjoy their wits and comments. They are a bright group of individuals. But the rage and personal attacks upon those that question the deity of gold leaves me shaking my head and cold.

Perhaps my comments will engender the typical reply, but I hope not. I'd appreciate, from them, their using words and intellect to enlighten and educate.

I'd REALLY appreciate a "how-to" on their plans. Who are they (I don't want names, but generalities regarding age, family structure, income, geographic region, employment, approx holdings in pm) and how/why, in their specific predicament, they believe that their "plan" would benefit all of us.

Me? 50, two teen-age children, $100,00+, midwest suburb, finance - and have more than a little in regard to assets.

ZH provides me (and thousands more) with provocative, extremely intelligent and informative information. I am grateful. I then turn to the comments and find a lot of trash.

by MsCreant
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:11
#181351

I am having a hard time behaving, but you are right, I should. Curious, is that your income, or you and your significant other. For instance you ask me and I am 60+, but then, I would not think to answer my husband's income as my own, but if I did, that jacks "us" up some. He earns his, I earn mine, I don't need him for that. Maybe some day. Hope not.

Here is the other one. Are you better than me if you earn 100+ and I only earn 60+? Is that the point of getting this info? Does that mean you have some greater authority than I do in thinking about these things?

What if I have benefits too? Should I go over to the side and calculate those too and scurry back over here with that total? And will you then go to the side and do the same?

I bet I sound ugly, and this seems to be some of the trash you don't like. But I am honestly curious. What if I am unemployed and living off my PMs? Am I not entitled to have a voice in this conversation?

I mean to confront you like I'd confront a friend.

And I am open to it that I have missed something and that you are not acting classist with this post.

by mnevins2
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 16:43
#181434

Dear MsCreant, I believe that age is important because it provides a lot of perspective and context.

For instance, if one is 28, with kids, works at a major bank - versus someone at 60+, no kids, then, yes, I think that comments regarding "heading for the hills" (as a silly example) or "refusing to pay the mortgage" or whatever - then the difference in circumstances is important.

Regarding income, to simplify, my wife and I are indeed one unit. Always have been and, I presume, always will be. This maximizes efficiencies and simplicities.

Income in this thread can also relate to pm holdings - sort of. Many posters say "buy gold" and then talk about taking the next paycheck and picking up a couple of more ounces. This differs from someone who has personally stockpiled hundreds of ounces (or more).

I don't personally care about the "next paycheck" person and their ideas and motivations (no offense), but I absolutely wish to know what "Chumbawamba" or GK. They appear to have a serious conviction about pm's and I'd very much like to know their thoughts and plans - with some context.

Bottom line, we benefit (I believe) from the wonderful research, insight and prose of ZH. Many of us are quite concerned with what we perceive to be a financial house of cards - which, we believe, is benefiting a few over the many. I know finance and I know history, but my ignorance is also vast. I wish for enlightenment from ZH and the many posters, who, collectively (and, of course, individually), are at level much higher than mine.

We truly DO NOT know what the future will bring, but let's challenge and educate rather than insult and trash. Thanks. MsCreant - I WANT your voice - and others.

 

 

 

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 16:49
#181443

" let's challenge and educate rather than insult and trash."

Fuck off, asshat.

by hayleecomet
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 21:11
#181660

good grief

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 22:43
#182659

Please, oh please, make the math problems harder. It's gettin all Yahoo up in here!

by dark pools of soros
on Sat, 01/23/2010 - 11:46
#203792

+ 42/6^[(766*45-(87+9+(-9/88))/9222)+.2255*666]

 

by chumbawamba
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:52
#181505

In a nutshell (because my education took years, so you can't expect me to give you the important background to my argument in one posting, or even several) this system is fucked.  Our debt-to-GDP ration is well beyond what other empires experienced just before their collapse.  Our central bank is monetizing thin air to pay off the financial blackholes created by unregulated/out-of-control over-the-counter derivatives that are valued at well over $600 trillion globally, and our government is planning to borrow every last unit of currency under the moon in order to keep from falling into a fiscal abyss.  How the hell does anyone expect this is going to turn out anything but very, very badly?

There are now literally tens of trillions of dollars of liabilities stretching from here on decades into the future.  Our debt-based monetary system means these liabilities will only increase in cost and interest as time goes on.  From where are the revenues going to come?  The pace of productivity and wealth creation in this nation will have to inflate accordingly.  How is this going to be accomplished?  Do you have any answers?  Does anyone?

We took a quantum leap from billions to trillions--a thousand-fold increase--in our economic discourse.  It follows then that our GDP will have track this increase to keep up with the new normal.  Again, from where are the revenues going to come?  Are they going to be conjured up again like magic, so that we go from trillions to quadrillions as the new new normal?  Or are you going to be expected to magically increase your productive output 1000 times to make up the difference, along with every other American (including children 1 and older, since we’ll also be needing more manpower for the job, way more than we have even if you include the illegals)?

WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR ALL OF THIS?

The answer never comes.  Oh yeah, this is simple to solve, they say.  They'll just "add liquidity" to the market, then "drain it", as if this was just a matter of doing the dishes, and all the complaining and fussing and fearing and loathing and hemming and hawing was all just a matter of no one wanting to pony up to the sink to actually do the deed.  But no, that’s just a cheap distraction.  So the question remains:

WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR ALL OF THIS?

I’ll tell you who: Us.  As in you.  And I.  And MsCreant.  Or at least those of us that are silly enough to file and pay taxes (I don't know about you two, but I do not submit to extortion, otherwise known by the letters I-R-S).  And how many people like me do you think there are now?  Probably just a relative few.  We're the "out there" nutballs.  We're the ones that make wild-eye predictions of economic collapse and social chaos to follow.  We're the ones who get pooh-poohed.  Until the government keeps pulling shit like this.  Then we grow in numbers.  The disgusted; the disenfranchised; the disaffected.  We find each other, learn from each other, and spread the wisdom.  We watch as the government creeps upon our God-given freedoms like a depraved predator, one after the other, picking them off until one day we’ll be left naked and defenseless.  But we prepare, and in the meantime we keep introducing new people to the mouth of the rabbit hole.  And if you’re courageous, and intelligent, you’ll go in.  And the deeper down the rabbit hole you go, the more you realize that real money—gold and silver—is the answer.

As more people discover the answer, the dollar takes one step closer to irrelevancy.  Once it reaches that point, you have hyperinflation.  Once the dollar enters hyperinflation the game is over; or rather, it just begins.  But then that's a matter of perspective :)

Will the dollar cross that line of confidence?  After all of my study, I sincerely believe it will and am convinced beyond a shadow of doubt about that conviction.  I’ve been waiting for someone to come along and explain how I’m wrong about this.  Despite my rhetoric, my eyes and mind are open.  Convince me.  Anyone?

In short: follow Austrian school of economics.  I'm not saying they have ALL the answers, but so far it seems they have pretty damn nearly all of them.

I am Chumbawamba.

by dogbreath
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:33
#181538

Chumba,

 

In regard to other failed empires:

I noticed that all of them; Rome, Byzantium, China(1910) had bloated, disobedient, corrupt bureaucracies of eunuchs. Thios contributed to their downfall.   Britian(1945) differed perhaps in that it was broke and could not maintain it extensive colonies.  I have never gotten the impression they were corrupt but if they aren't eunuchs they are queer. 

by David449420
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 21:17
#181664

Eloquent, and said far more concisely than I could.  And I am not an American, but a close neighbor.

The only thing that I am not 100% clear about is if precious metals are the be all & end all solution to weather the coming GLOBAL storm.  And it IS going to be GLOBAL, not just the US.

 

 

 

by chumbawamba
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 09:22
#181896

Gold, Guns, Garden.

Self-sufficiency.  Self-respect.

Self, Family, Community.

Damn, it's almost a haiku, but not :)

I am Chumbawamba.

by WaterWings
on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 14:03
#183213

by merehuman
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 21:28
#181670

Damn it CHUMBAWAMBA,   you write nice. Good flow, like straight from the heart.   Meanwhile we wait

for the shoe to drop , and the axe to fall

and i know its gonna hurt us all. Already has. At 59,this grown man has tears in his eyes. Empathy so sucks

 

by MsCreant
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:21
#181696

merehuman rocks!

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:36
#181711

How much of this perspective is just you getting old? YOu're 59, after all. There isn't much "future" left for you old boomers, so maybe, just maybe, you are confusing your narcissistic tendencies with the end of the world when really it is just the end of a generation? Let go, for crissakes. Grow up (finally) and realize that the world cannot revolve around YOU forever.

by MsCreant
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 01:46
#181824

Projecting some issues ya got with mom and dad?

by merehuman
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 11:23
#182007

Let go he says, having no idea who I am . I let go years ago. 

By the way, growing up is the ability to encompass a larger view. From my perch i see many tent cities and a people with little hope of a positive future.

I see hunger amongst many and recall how ones teeth chatter uncontrollably.  At night many keep walking as they literally cannot sleep.  Been there, done that and well remembered it is.

Having been poor repeatedly I have a ton of sympathy. This is not about us old fucks. We had ours and our glad of it. But age has taught us and so has  suffering. Its not for us we cry ,fear or worry, its our children and you and yours.

If, at our advanced age we have no sympathy or empathy then we havent lived

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 15:39
#182322

Hey hey you guys I'm getting out the firehose to break
up the fight. Remember something ideas are essentially
genderless and ageless a good idea is a good idea. This
is meant to be a forum for everyone to voice their
opinions #181711 remark can only be construed as a cheap
immature shot. If you in reality are younger be patient
you to will be older soon enough. Meanwhile where were
you raised in a barn? If you set forth something intelligent rather than insulting people maybe they would listen rather than rolling their eyes and deleting you.
Trades on gone against you today putting you in a cranky
mood?

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:38
#181712

You write well, but you sound just like my father, who is all doom and gloom and no answers. BTW, how do we achieve hyperinflation when we're in the midst of a massive credit de-leveraging cycle? Or are you talking a decade from now?

by SWRichmond
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 09:49
#181875

You and anon181711 just above (you?) sound just like my best friend's son, who is all sniping from the shadows, intergenerational bitching, and no answers.  Chumba has answers in his post(s), you just don't see them.   

As for the hyperinflation, try this: what happens to the currency when the credit deleveraging is so massive that it takes the sovereign debt with it?

by WaterWings
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 14:57
#182266

Funny thing about most critics! It's easy to take swipes when you have nothing unique to contribute to the conversation.

by chumbawamba
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 09:25
#181901

Hyperinflation is a psychological event.  Credit de-leveraging is a derivation of the direct cause of hyperinflation, which is confidence--or rather a lack of it--in a currency.

I am Chumbawamba.

by Arco
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 16:23
#182361

So you ignore the excess capacity argument? 10% + unemployment. And rather than gold, wouldn't you suggest we just leverage up on fixed debt to purchase inflation adjusting assets? I mean isn't that going to help us more than gold which you really can't do much with but store somewhere...

by dark pools of soros
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 20:54
#182591

if everything goes to hell then the wasteland will be all gold guns and garden - but there still will be very rich enclaves that will keep the game going.  You can see it now..  the Detroit's will spread and the Silicon Valley's will shrink and become even more inclusive.

 

This game can go on a while but we all know from history that this stuff usually leads to wars but now seems a bit different.. it seems that there is a chance that it will be a global oppression where the people are not cast versus each other but rather all cast off together into their own country's abyss 

by iinthesky
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 09:51
#181915

AMEN!

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 19:13
#182518

Just out of curiosity what did you study? For how long
and where? Could you give me a back of the envelope
explanation of the Austrian school of economics and how it
will solve the present dilemma in this country? I am a
graduate of UCLA began my university career at 16 years of age. Studied Political Science Theory. That's my background your turn.

by Anonymous
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 13:00
#184582

This is probably a dead thread but you might like this anyway: a list of Things that will Disappear First:

http://www.thepowerhour.com/news/items_disappearfirst.htm

If you've already seen it then I guess a reminder is always good.

by WaterWings
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:06
#181513

Here is a hardcore view:

If you have that much gold to protect I suggest you move to Wyoming. If you have a lot of wealth to protect, you have to decide if relocation to protect your life is part of your plan. This isn't paranoia, this is preparing for the worst. All it takes is for one person to ruin your day; strength in like-minded numbers.

Think of silver as your checking account and gold as your long-term savings. Many believe that silver is historically undervalued in relation to gold, so loading up on silver shouldn't be a mistake - there are many that recommend silver over gold. And find a place to stash the majority of it without any other human being the wiser - you will not be needing it anytime soon after a crash anyway - focus on sustaining life and adjusting to a new reality.

If you store your precious metals under the watch of someone else don't count on it being there. The old school method of burying it in the woods is the only way to be sure of 'guaranteed safety' if it gets real chaotic. Safety-deposit box raids are common in the US. Nothing is sacred, and really, nothing is guaranteed. What have human beings always done when they find out about gold?

Have 1 - 3 years of storable food, get weapons training, learn gardening and small farm animal care - and get to know which neighbors you can rely on, in Wyoming. Seriously. With society potentially coming off its hinges you can never be too prepared. "You can't eat your gold." If you don't have a lot of money move to Idaho. In my opinion, your location is the most important part of a plan X investment scheme.

by MsCreant
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:23
#181699

I have looked into chickens and rabbits a little (you know how surfing can go, shopping is more like it). I had not considered that I need to get the info somewhere since I am not yet doing it.

Thanks.

by milbank
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 23:33
#181766

So it's safe to assume you live in Wyoming?

by WaterWings
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 10:40
#181971

If you look at a rack and stack of all states for relative security, availability of wildlife, lack of population density, 'pro-freedom laws', etc, Wyoming is at the top of the list, if you can afford it. I do not live there, although it would be ideal to live in the western portion if my resources allow it in the future. 

http://www.survivalblog.com/retreatareas.html

by SWRichmond
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 11:03
#181991

I wish Wyoming had a deep water port.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:13
#182120

Plus, if they ever tried to go independent they would be invaded for their coal, if not just for the sake of usual control. "No one leaves the party!"

by chumbawamba
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:28
#182140

The only problem with Wyoming is that when they come to get Cheney it's going to be one hell of a firefight.  Make sure you add "Level III (or better) ballistic vest" to your inventory list.

I am Chumbawamba.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 14:23
#182202

He better have a couple of these, because you can bet there are more than a couple Cowboys with one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWJp14tkBlU&NR=1

Raufoss rounds turn just about everything into concealment instead of cover. But you already know this Chums.

I can't think of a better example a 'domestic enemy', as our oathkeepers have promised to eliminate. Maybe Rahm. Cheney's a real good one. So many of the others are clueless, like the free drugs more than the job, or just too narcissistic to accept the reality of their actions.

by cougar_w
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 15:59
#182337

Indeed, all the sustained action for 8,000 years past is on or near the water. I live in the Calif Bay Area. Piracy will likely be our largest industry in 20 years, and I don't mean music piracy but the maritime kind. Perhaps I'll open an ocean-side pub around then, though I'll have to learn Chinese or Korean to make any sense of the conversation at the bar.

Drink up ye hearties yo ho!

cougar

by Anonymous
on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 06:50
#182838

Argh!

by tomdub_1024
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:39
#182158

Excellent post! btw, why Idaho if you are "not so endowed financially", so to speak?...just curious as to your reasoning...I moved to Idaho 6 years ago from SoCal for some very specific reasons, Montana was my first choice (lived there before, love it and the liberty attitude), Wyoming and Idaho were close seconds in consideration.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 14:34
#182233

I'll let this old duffer explain:

Wyoming is not recommended for a survivalist with a small to moderate budget. However, if you are someone who is wealthy and who can stand the cold, Wyoming should be bumped up to your top choice. Taxes will be a big issue for you—and Wyoming has no income tax. As someone “of means” you will be able to afford lots of food storage, voluminous fuel storage, and a large greenhouse to make up for the severe climate.

Scroll all the way to the bottom:

http://www.survivalblog.com/retreatareas.html#StateData

I prefer Idaho because of the more obvious qualites over many other states, plus I have family there now. I miss it - and as someone else posted further down in the comments, [I'm ready for the next stage so this everyday misery can end.] I 'heart' Idaho.

by tomdub_1024
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 14:54
#182260

I love it as well, and haven't ever looked back on my decision to move the family here...:)

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 19:08
#181574

Refusing to pay a mortgage is, at present, an option. That will not be an option available within a few years as the money supply/velocity "starves out" the former high rollers. Default will be imposed by the system.

Since the necessary curative process is antithetical to central bankers' mission, they will oppose it using whatever tools they must, legal or extralegal. Since the firmament which their financial structure is founded upon the fiat currency, it will be their weapon of choice.

They can wield it to affect macro- and micro-economic choices and impose their will. Those outcomes may not comport with the desires of money bearers. Since the system can withstand only so much state intervention which strains economic actors confidence, once that threshhold is surpassed, the actors look for other repositories whether gold, farmland, or other physical commodities.

Without complete enslavement of economic actors, you can only force their hand so much with policy until they effectively strike.

Then the state must bare its teeth and enforce its commands. End of enterprise, enter the virtual gulags.

This is why we choose gold. It would not be so had the masters of the universe more wisely stewarded their powers, and considered the longer-term wealth and weal of their ruled.

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 00:39
#181794

Why would inflation lead to a situation where one can no longer refuse to pay a mortgage? A non-recourse loan is a non-recourse loan. Are you saying they'll start going for default judgments against those who default on recourse loans?

by dark pools of soros
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 21:30
#182616

i guess they could property tax everyone outta their homes but a fixed loan stays fixed.. 

by tomdub_1024
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 14:02
#182190

"I don't personally care about the "next paycheck" person and their ideas and motivations (no offense)"...as a "next paycheck person (po' white trash (PWT))" by choice (starve the beast), none taken. I can assure you that there may be a thing or two you could learn from those not so endowed as you, but you aren't interested...that's fine, we'll save our precious time for someone who is. Everyone has some wisdom, I try to learn whatever I can from whoever. But then again, I talk with homeless people and learned how to placer mine from an unemployed person...so what do I know.

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:42
#182167

"Am I not entitled to have a voice in this conversation?"

Everyone one is entitled to have and express an opinion.
However, all ideas are not equal -- not equally valid or equally valuable.

Many times a proven track record of making the best bets over time is demonstrated by meaningful net worth. I guess there are unemployed folks with no net worth that might know precisely what is going on, but.......maybe not.

by chumbawamba
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:29
#181375

You may not realize or even understand, but we're trying to save peoples' live.  In time it'll all make sense.

In the meantime: lead, follow, or get out of the way.

I am Chumbawamba.

by Cindy_Dies_In_T...
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:39
#181381

Agreed.

 

Fight, Fuck, or hit the Fence.

by Cindy_Dies_In_T...
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:14
#181692

Heh, heh, I got junked by someone who never read a Sidney Sheldon novel I guess. (thats where that line is from). sigh ;)

by MsCreant
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:24
#181701

Getting junked can be a badge of honor. I get honored all the time!!

by theadr
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 01:26
#181819

Agreed.  Junk = antiJunk

by chumbawamba
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 09:31
#181904

I junked you because you deserve all the honor you can get :)

I am Chumbawamba.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:16
#182127

I junk thee, because I love thee.

by Amish Rake Fighter
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 17:29
#182433

nothing wrong with a little junk in the trunk

by MsCreant
on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 12:49
#183136

From you, I had this coming, you and your rakier whit!! :-)

by Hephasteus
on Sat, 01/23/2010 - 04:13
#203611

From the heart of hell I junk at thee!!!!

by merehuman
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:57
#181395

True. Reading Zerohedge has saved me and mine. Because of all of your inputs to the conversation, I learned and prepared.  Food, seeds,silver.

Did a reverse mortgage just in time! No rent to pay at a time when my business died. Very good. Am educating neighbors and relatives, the guy at the store, and i even ask the customers if they are ready for the dollar to fail?

I have convinced some to buy silver and food. It means to me that I wont have to feed them, and our country has some collateral (silver) to rebuild after the fall. I also relay info over Utube and reccomend this site steadily as the very best source of truth.

Truth and honesty is like gold. A good base.

by WaterWings
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:08
#181516

I can add nothing. You complete me, Chummers.

by anarkst
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 20:46
#181649

Once you get yourself "saved," let the rest of us know how it went.

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 20:01
#182550

You haven't answered my question where did you go to
school? How long did you study and where? Tell me why
you think Austrian school has the answers. How are
you saving lives? Do you work at a multi-lateral
development such as the African Dev Bank? Perhaps
you work at Cascade Investments. Thanks ever so much
but I'll pass on the lead, follow happy horseshit. By
the way you seem to know so much did Tyler write this
article?

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 16:38
#181425

The obvious solution, Einstein, would be to avoid the comments but like some feminist who can't stand that other women are getting dates, you are compelled to talk down to the rest of us. That makes you a loser, pal, regardless of how many zeros you have in your money market account.

One more thing....your behavior is peculiarly Minnesotan, so I'm guessing (from your handle as well as this uncanny desire Minnesoduhns have to be referred to as "Midwestern" that you're chiming in from Eden Prairie or Wayzata.

If you don't like the comments, it's okay if you head out to the ice house with whatever brain deadening alcoholic beverage you prefer and prattle on endlessly to the perch about how smart you are. I am so fucking glad I found my way out of the gulag you call home, big MMF and all.

by mnevins2
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:36
#181497

Dear ANON #181425,

Thanks for the laugh. You have three paragraphs of absolute nonsense in attempting to "profile" me!!!

First, I'm considered to be quite conservative and athletic. "Loser?" Interesting.

Minnesota? Guilty of a little projection here? I'm 50 years in Cook County, IL. I'm fairly certain that "Minnesota Nice" would not describe my upbringing nor my outlook.

I DO like MOST of the comments, but desire that they a bit more civil and informative. I started this thought in defense of someone being trashed because he was not in the "Gold is King" camp and I wish to know why many bright and articulate people (rhetorically speaking) trash and profane those not of this belief? I figured that I had nothing to lose by TRYING to establish a dialogue.

I guess that I failed with a certain former resident of MN - ya betcha?

BTW, I don't drink, don't eat fish, no brat's, either (referring to the MN/WI food groups!). I'm a city boy from Chicawgo and prefer pizza and beef sandwiches! I even have a scar or two to prove it!!!

Again, thanks for the unintentional humor!

PS - FYI, my wife ALSO escaped from MN (Burnsville - hardly Eden Prairie or whatever hamlet you despise. How about Edina, too?) in 1988 and fell for "down in the boondocks" boy. I guess that I didn't fail with every "former MN resident."

by chumbawamba
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:56
#181509

I will be the first to proclaim my guilt in opening up the gas valve for full flamage, and being a hypocrite in lieu of my recent calls for civility on another posting, but it's because this ATG douche has a long history of posting ridiculously misinformative messages about gold and the dollar and he's going to cause people lots of pain and misery if he isn't checked forcefully.

Anyone who knows what they're talking about knows that what he says is complete tripe, and I feel it's important to sufficiently point this out.

I am Chumbawamba.

by WaterWings
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 20:54
#181656

Just watch this guy every once in a while:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCdib3GVZx4

by TheGoodDoctor
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 00:59
#181805

Good old Bob. I forgot how truly funny his rants are.

by chumbawamba
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 09:36
#181907

The best part is the pro-obama comments.

High-larious.

This guy is great.  This is basically my words in video form.  Always wanted to do my own rage videos.  Hmm...

I am Chumbawamba.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 17:48
#182291

We should get Bob and walstreetpro2 together.

If you want another laugh turn on four different tabs of Bob at the same time at work, or at home, or the public library, and crank up the volume. That's the sound you hear in America when you turn off the printing pre$$.

Here, try it today. Hold CTRL and click on each link once:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hR665hmglk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCdib3GVZx4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V73jIgu5qPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvhM2WzoJes

Just don't do it at an airport kiosk. You'll get tackled by TSA sadists.

 

by Ripped Chunk
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 12:47
#182082

Fucking right on. Put this through a 1 trillion watt PA system (we only deal in trillions these days right)

People need to wake up.

 

 

 

by Shocker
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 15:04
#182274

That guy is too much, Definately worth a watch.

by mnevins2
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:50
#181729

C-,

Thanks. We ARE on the same team!

by tomdub_1024
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:49
#182176

"you're chiming in from Eden Prairie or Wayzata" ...ROFLMAO !!! PS, you forgot Minnetonka....:)

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 22:40
#182657

Who are you referring to?

by pikledbill
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:01
#181455

I rarely post...but this is good.  I am $110k, two household salary (split nearly perfectly between myself and wife).  I am not sure what to do...I have cash on hand, no savings in TBTF (recently moved to a local bank), actively trade the market (short/long hedge right now, own stocks in a few companies, SKF, SRS, and SDS as hedge against long positions - this has taken considerable effort to average down (and stay even) over the last 3 months).  We own five retirement accounts - my Roth, my IRA, Wife's IRA, my 403b, wife's 401k.  Recently moved my IRA and Roth, and my wife's IRA into an account where I have more control - currently all sitting in money fund.  Living with a $180k mortgage, no other debt.  we were paying off the house with my salary, but starting in 2008, we put my entire salary into savings, hence, living off a single income (wife's) for past three years.  We have a lot in money funds...so I am now concerned.  I am now considering taking the tax hit on cashing out IRAs, Roth, and hide the cash...what the hell are honest hard-working Americans that live well within their means supposed to do?

I have been angry...recently told a friend that voting is a waste of time, and that I would get involved again when the pitchforks and torches come out.  I do not hold physical gold...but intend to begin buying sometime over the next 1-2 years.  I am currently in the deflation camp, looking for inflation maybe 2-5 years from now...hoping to begin buying gold well before then.  Admittedly, I have been behind the curve with PM's...however, I think there is credence to the idea that cash is king...if/when the whole BS system collapses, will Gold, or beer/scotch be worth more money?  Will anyone with 10k in dollars be "wealthy" or able to buy what they need to get by?

I don't pretend to know the answers, but I enjoy the conversation very much.

If my timing regarding deflation/inflation is way off, I brew my own beer, garden and preserve, bow and rifle hunt, can work leather, build furniture, and make just about anything...hopefully, I can provide for my family when TSHTF.

Cheers,

average middle-class guy trying to traverse the obstacle-course of life...for now anyway.

by chumbawamba
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:13
#181519

Pikledbill,

Ask yourself these questions:

1) What system is collapsing?  The one in the US?  I.E. the dollar?

1a) If the dollar collapses, what does that mean domestically?

1b) What does it mean internationally?

2) If the FDIC solvent?

2a) If not, how safe are your bank accounts?

3) Are the firms in which you have your various retirement accounts solvent?

3a) Really?  Are you sure?  Did you check their balance sheet?

3b) Including all their hidden liabilities?

3c) If not, how safe are you accounts with them?

4) Does America strike you as a financially strong country?

4a) If not, do you think America will remain the world's sole superpower indefinitely under these conditions?

4b) If not, what does that mean for the dollar, the world's reserve currency, and the unit of account upon which all other world currencies (except gold) are based (again, domestically and internationally)?

Mull that over.

But here's a spoiler.  The answer to all the above is:

Buy gold.  Buy silver.  Buy guns.  Don't forget the bullets.  Buy seeds.  Store food and water.  Buy tools.  Good ones.  Not the cheap Chinese shit.  Learn practical skills.  Buy a safe.  A good one.  And bolt it to a concrete slab.  Put all your valuables in there.

You have most of this covered.  You are woefully deficient in the precious metals department.  Do not wait "1-2 years".  Supply is limited.  Sure, anyone can buy shares of GLD, but GLD is not gold.  You want to buy physical metal, and you want to store it yourself.  Do not put it in a bank safety deposit box.  Do not put it in a bank safety deposit box.  Do not put it in a bank safety deposit box.  This is partly why you buy guns (don't forget the bullets).

Don't wait until inflation eats away your savings.  Every day you wait is like an ounce of silver slipping out of your hands, lost forever.

History is your teacher.  All others are substitutes.  Including me.

I am Chumbawamba.

by pikledbill
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 20:51
#181652

Pondering rhetorical list...thanks.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:46
#181725

Don't forget to stock up on soap and toothpaste.

by DosZap
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 14:29
#182228

Chum,

As one who (in your words) evidently am to be considered Soylent Green by your age group..........I agree w/100% of what you have laid out.

Why?, because of my age, because of my view, and knowledge of our History as a country. And by the absolute dead nuts facts, that we are screwed as a nation.

We have a 650% Debt to GDP Ratio, and we have a NEW style government easing in at a brisk clip.( I call it Fascism). As for the PM sector.................Gld & Slvr, have BEEN money for over 6000 yrs. Always has been , always will be.

Paper assets...............are in our scenario,worth what their printed on.Personally, I plan/am far into process of liquidating paper, all kinds (except TP).

You cannot eat it, but in light of it's history, compared to fiat currencies.......it has no equal.

And the Nations that have traveled the road we are, also are  FAR along, what has lasted?.For those that choose to sit and fiddle when Rome II burns, and have not INSURED themselves, woe unto them.

We have an obligation, and a duty, to take care of our own, and as many other numb nuts, as we can.

When the Ball goes up.

 Another point, that's stopping people here from our views,WE, some of us older, dumber,wiser, etc., have been used to our country as THE best on the planet ( because as the rest of the world has gone,during our lifetimes, it IS, and has been).

We physcologically, cannot, do not, want to believe what has happened, what is happening right before our eyes. But, Denial, is not a river in Egypt.

They speak about pandemics...............the one coming is truly THE Pandemic.

When you have done all you can, and boxed yourself ( and the rest of the world into a corner),there is NO way out.Over a lifetime of living, one learns at an early age, that sooner or later you WILL have to man up, and pay the piper, face the demons, fight or die.

We are closing in on that point.........

There is nothing hidden that will not be known.In light of life NOW, how's your plan to handle it?.

You had best have one (better to have one, and never need it, than to need one, and never planned)............Pray to God, you/we never need it, and PM's go back to $4.00/$256.00 an oz.( Uh Huh).

Because that would mean a miracle had occured, and we time warped back, to a place where there was some  stability,and honesty, and the thought WE had a great future ahead..........

Sadly, I do not see it, and the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

by WaterWings
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:26
#181530

If my timing regarding deflation/inflation is way off, I brew my own beer, garden and preserve, bow and rifle hunt, can work leather, build furniture, and make just about anything...hopefully, I can provide for my family when TSHTF.

You sound like someone I will be trading with. Most folks don't realize they need to guarantee the important parts of the survival hierarchy of needs (food, shelter, force-protection) long before transferring funds into the most guaranteed form of wealth protection: precious metals.

I say guaranteed as if we are in a vacuum and our plans hold together perfectly.

if/when the whole BS system collapses, will Gold, or beer/scotch be worth more money?

They will be worth more 'value'. That is, you will receive more value if you find the person most desperate to buy what you have. If you offer a shot of scotch to a Mormon that has run out of food storage it is worthless. But to a guy that has an addiction and values the flavor of scotch over feeding his family you have a winner. I will let you decide what the moral context is. Tampons will make you quite popular in the second month after a hard crash. It's more important that you know what they want in barter. Once you are on the 'need' side you'll be ready to hand over your gold for services and big-ticket items like a hunting rifle (if you were stupid enough to not research and purchase at least one beforehand). To readers that don't envision themselves tracking down Bambi and Thumper I ask you, "You or them? How exactly do you plan on fighting the calorie-deficit battle each day?"

Good luck!

by janchup
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:23
#181479

The "Holy Grail of Gold." Uttered with sarcasm which dents not a whit my 300%+ gain this decade.

Yes, I know, there is a 28% collectables tax.

by MagicHandPuppet
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 19:06
#181571

mnevins2, I made 100K+ in 2009 on my gold holdings alone.  I am not encouraging you to buy gold every month, and if you don't, as the dollar continues to fall, it is you and the wealth of all holders of fiat whose wealth gets transferred to, amoung the friends of the fed, those who own gold and silver.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:06
#181347

cash is king?

keep telling yourself that....

by tewkatz
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 16:58
#181452

Worth noting too: Every HELOC since the housing bubble began is 'printed money' as the value of the house (and thus, the HELOC) is false.  This is inflation that has already happened, and as those mtg/heloc's go bust, that money disappears...

Just noting it...no need to waste time hurling insults at me...I am an unwashed mass.

:)

by chumbawamba
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:18
#181523

The money used to build that house came from wealth.  That wealth is now in the house (the house itself).  The money used to buy that house came from wealth.  That wealth went to someone else.

Someone got paid for it.  That money is out there.  It's in the system.

I am Chumbawamba.

by MsCreant
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:53
#181732

I keep thinking about this. Have not had the guts to bring it up, ego did not want to look stupid (I may still anyway but here goes). The banks are holding money so that they have reserves, and while they are lying about the value of the loans they hold (ie assets) the loaned money for the house is still in the system. Some one experiences being "under water" on their house. The bank experiences a depreciated asset. But the money the bank loaned the homeowner is out there, NOT LOST.

The asset is deflated, no doubt. Until the house is sold, or walked away from, defaulted on, etc. the devaluation has not happened for those folks. When it happens, everyone loses and this is the point of mark to fantasy rather than mark to market. But the money is still out there, the one who sold the house (got the money from the homeowner who got the loan) put it into the economy-- invested, bought stuff, or saved it somewhere in a mattress.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it seems like deflation is a local or individual level event and inflation is systemic and macro because the so called "lost" money is dispersed somewhere in the system.

You know how money changes hands and there is a multiplier effect? I wonder if there is a reverse thing, not just that it slows down and we do not have the multiplier, multipling as fast.

My ignorance of terms is showing but here goes again. The bank counts it as a devalued asset once the loan stops performing. The home owner counts the same default as a loss on their balance sheet too. If the home equity was put up as collateral for something, say a second mortgage, they count the event of the default as a loss too.

Do you see what I am getting at? It is like a negative multiplier or something. Not just that the exchange of money is slowing.

So I guess this post has two issues I am wondering about:

1. The so called lost money is not lost, but in the system. This says inflation.

2. The defaulted assets (house, commercial real estate building) seems to have a negative multiplier effect.

What I really want to say is the system failed by allowing too many entities to call this house, building, whatever, on their list of assets.

Try this, it is a double, triple, quadruple, exponential, globe wide, counting/claiming of money THAT NEVER WAS REALLY THERE.

Am I lost? Or found? And what have I found?

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 09:55
#181920

"I guess what I am trying to say is that it seems like deflation is a local or individual level event and inflation is systemic and macro because the so called "lost" money is dispersed somewhere in the system."

Ahh another curious mind has stumbled upon the inflation/deflation paradox! Intriguing isn't it?

See, money lent into existence stays in existence; and this money does have value, as long as the economic system remains functional. Now in a normal banking system, the real estate collapse will result in bank bankruptcies - real equity (from depositors, shareholders) will be wiped out to compensate for the losses; this mechanism provides a counterbalance to the money created from the defunct loans which are now in circulation. To what degree the compensation depends on what fractional reserve level the country has (ie, how leveraged the govt wants its economy to be).

In the US(and UK/SWZ?) you have this curious (aka. unnatural) situation where deposits are guaranteed (through debt issuance, no less) and major banks are not allowed to fail. So what followed was that the Fed and GSEs now possess assets on their balance sheets with nominal values far exceeding true value. This major economic segment cannot normalise until the 2 twains meet.

True value can be raised by either decreasing (or in this case, artificially restricting) supply or increasing demand (credit loosening, cash incentives, job creation) - all of which have been tried but with little success. Another solution, then, is the devaluation of currency - true value priced in cheap dollars goes up, while nominal value remains constant.

Oh, and not forgetting the US economy is very generous with welfare. Thus i still maintain that despite the reduction in wages, and obvious deflationary pressure on selected segments (property/capital goods/luxury items etc.), the foreseeable near-term is likely to (continue to?) be inflationary in general.

As for money velocity, i believe it is decelerating. It may move from the end-consumer up through the supply chain and end up in corporate wallets. Capital investments seem to be out of flavour for the time being, so i'll leave it to more informed sources to account for the monies' whereabouts. Inflation can also partially arise from the cost increase due to a weakened currency;

by MsCreant
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 21:54
#182632

Thanks for your answer and sorry I did not see it sooner. I think posting Anon, they show up a little later.

So it sounds like some of my head scratching is I am trying to apply rules for a free flowing system to a system that has been "intervened in" and I will suffer until I give that up.  Check!

I keep hearing people say money is "disappearing" from the system, but it is not. A poster below was helpful in this regard. Monetized objects (houses, CRE) are losing their monetization. But even as that happens, other objects are being monetized in response to this (the vehicles that held those mortgages) by fiat (mark to fantasy), but corralled outside the system, where their value will not be debated.  Intervention like the planet has never seen before. Computers made this level of both mistake and intervention possible. No price discovery, no healing.

I've not thought about the effect of welfare before. Does welfare thin out the value of a dollar? At first blush it seems obvious it would. But I am not confident in this. Being on a seperate "track" and only usable for food...would this drive up food prices only? Or thin out all dollars?

Then again, don't they act like a "commodity" in the underground economy when they are exchanged for cash or other barter items?

We don't know their exchange rate in the underground economy... no published exchange rate... :-)

This looks like an interesting question that gets complicated quick (or I don't have a solid understanding of certain structures firmly in place, yet, to track this one to the next logical place).

by Anonymous
on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 14:36
#183235

Hi MsCreant,
Thanks for walking through your thought process here, if nothing else it's fun to watch smart minds grind through this stuff...

Have you ever read any of Steve Keen's work? The fact that USD debt to U.S. GDP ratio is tracing an exponential curve is the best way to quantify the process you're describing. Keen emphasizes this point, contesting that prices reflect the total amount of debt outstanding rather than any base money measure. Every time the government saves the banking industry, the debt cannot clear and price mismatches remain in the system.

Here's a good article summarizing his work, I think you'll like it:
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/12/01/debtwatch-no-41-december-2009-4-years-of-calling-the-gfc/

-knaps

by Anonymous
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 01:38
#183985

Of course, extended benefits could potentially amount to an extraordinary sum. Up to US$274 bil* in fact; but that's assuming this is a jobless recovery ongoing. If my memory serves, that's roughly a 34% increase in the monetary base over 1.4 years, or 10% inflation every 6 months.

This great pool of cash will drive up prices for all the necessities of life, eg. food, clothing, household items, utilities, petrol, public transport (the last 3 also attributed to rising oil price which in a large part is also due to dollar devaluation), and possibly even rent (in theory). This is what i feel makes this phenomenon particularly insidious.

* 10% U/E = 15 mil x $250/wk * 73 weeks = $273.75 bil
The estimate is based on a conservative inputs (15 mil persons/$250 a week); the final figure may end up too low, or too high, contingent on i) subsequent waves of claimants get reemployed as econ improves; ii) the first 26 weeks of co-paid insurance manages without federal aid.

Also, other federal entitlement programs are not taken into account (being a foreigner and all).

by Anonymous
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 12:48
#185650

Despite this article being way past its shelf life, there is still a need for self-correction out of principle: just read that the actual figure is ~10 mil recipients, not 15 as assumed (serves me right for not verifying something so verifiable). So numbers above need to be discounted by 1/3.

Disclaimer: i drink cheap coffee.

by chumbawamba
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 10:16
#181941

You were lost but then you found yourself :)

This financial stuff is easy.  But like any language, knowing the vocabulary is 90% of the game.

In the second scenario, the money of the original selling price is still in the system.

But why should the house be necessarily devalued?  If the price has gone down and the bank repos the house then yes, they "lost" money.  And the buyer lost their down payment and all the payments they made on the loan (which the bank got).  But that money or (wealth) is still out there in the system.  It might be circulating as currency (inflation) or being stored as wealth (deflation).

This is the stuff that inflation and deflation are made of.  Hyperinflation is a whole different bask of eggs.

I am Chumbawamba.

by bruiserND
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 12:58
#182096

"counting/claiming of money THAT NEVER WAS REALLY THERE."

You are mostly correct on this excellent post.

There was an attempt to monetize real-estate.It worked for a while creating temporary wealth based on a universally acceped paradigm that the collatteral would always  go up or at least not go down.

Things changed, not only did realestate go down and destroy the monetization game but it took the system with it.

Time to adapt or die.

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122125016&sc=emaf

 

As I've been saying for 15 months , sheer evil has deliberately destroyed America.   http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=c50-S5nXOYewswORuPS8BA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAYQBSgA&q=OneWest%3F+George+Soros,+Michael+Dell,+Steven+Mnuchin&spell=1

by MsCreant
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 17:18
#182417

The concept that real estate was monetized helps with the flow of money traffic as I try to map it in my head.

Your One West link has me speechless.

IndyMac is a Zombie that won't die because the mad banksters keep reanimating it.

That word you used, deliberate...when enough people figure this out (IF)...

How can I discover something new that makes me speechless every day?

Why I just visit ZeroHedge of course!

Thanks for your post (and the validation too!).

by Anonymous
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 01:22
#183977

When you build a house you use output from the economy to construct something of "value". If you don't have to borrow money to build the house then you must have accumulated enough productive output (savings) from your past efforts to draw an output from the system that the system "owes you".

ie If the "system" was just you a carpenter and a tree then, if you had "saved" enough to build a house, doing whatever you do, then the money in circulation would be what the carpenter owed you and it would be equal to the effort of building the house. By building the house the money in circulation is extinguished, money is only ever a demand on labor.

By building a house you are placing a bet that in the future it will retain it's value and that it's a good thing to do with your savings, a better thing than leaving it invested as an unrealized demand on the carpenter's labor (or in the real economy, as opposed to the simple two person example, an unrealized demand on the time and skills of anyone who is prepared to work for it).

When you spend your saved money on the house, money in circulation is extinguished, and it is replaced by a debt free asset.

If you don't have accumulated savings and borrow money to build, ultimately someone else with savings takes a bet (on you) that the investment is worth something of value. But now there is money created in circulation based on the future demand of your time and effort for the duration of the mortgage. Someone purchases a bond the value of which depends on your ongoing payment of the mortgage (or the bank has an asset if it hasn't onsold it).

This investor has an expectation that they can demand from the system, at some time, an output equal to the face value of their investment. Which ultimately means a demand on someone's skill and labour and output (or in the two person model you now have to work for the carpenter).

But notice something else. Because of interest (the carpenter thinks like a banker), and the wonder of the table mortgage over 25 years or so you end up working for the carpenter 2, 3 or 4 times the equivalent effort that the carpenter would have owed you if you had saved up. Also, when you pay the loan back the money is extinguished and there is no outstanding demand on anyone's labor.

Now add in the fractional reserve banking system. By using leverage, the banks create additional credit (and it's still only demand on labor) and instead of you working for the carpenter by the multiple demanded by the interest, this additional effort is now owed to the banking system. All the money in circulation is ultimately a future demand on labor that has to be extinguished at some point, and clearly given the amount of money created means that it can never be.

The fractional banking system allows an outstanding future demand on labor to be created far in excess of what is capable of being supplied. The money is there, it's been created and it is real, it's a real demand on future output. But because of the multiplier effect of the table mortgage and the leverage of fractional banking the system can only sustain the failure of very small number of the total bets on the mortgagees ability to pay.

by Rusty_Shackleford
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 19:50
#181593

If the person who took out the HELOC put the money in an account, and then decided to use it to now pay off the HELOC, yes, it would then "disappear". 

However, this NEVER happened.  Every HELOC that was taken out was then SPENT in the economy buying PS3's, iPhones, etc. 

 

It's out there.

by Rusty_Shackleford
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 19:37
#181588

Not to pile on, but what would getting gold through a metal detector have to do with anything?

 

If you can't figure out a way to secure and transport your gold you suffer from a real lack of imagination.

 

 

 

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 01:25
#181818

Gold doesn't set off airport metal detectors. In any case, there's nothing (currently) illegal about hauling a suitcase full of gold out of the US.

by chumbawamba
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 10:17
#181945

Not yet at least.

But what about this gold not setting off airport metal detectors thing?  Source?

I am Chumbawamba.

by trav777
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 11:46
#182027

I walked through the last metal detector, in a high-security airport, one of the ones most likely to be the "victim of a terrorist attack" with 5 krugerrands in my pocket, one on a chain around my neck and a gold Rolex daydate with the President band and did not hear a beep.

Cash is a joke...you talk about paper gold, wtf is cash, paper paper?

Do you HONESTLY think they cannot seize your eDollars, dude?  WTF is cash other than electronic paper?  And wtf is paper other than something that could be revalued with the stroke on a pen.  Your FRNs can be rendered utterly worthless at any time.

 

by sethstorm
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 15:07
#182280

That problem can be fixed.

by Seer
on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 00:23
#182725

To cite a reference (to reduce all the, pardon the pun, speculation):

Source: http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/vacation/kbyg/money.xml

Money and Other Monetary Instruments

(08/21/2009)You may bring into or take out of the country, including by mail, as much money as you wish. However, if it is more than $10,000, you will need to report it to CBP. Ask the CBP officer for the Currency Reporting Form (FinCen 105). The penalties for non-compliance can be severe.

“Money” means monetary instruments and includes U.S. or foreign coins currently in circulation, currency, travelers’ checks in any form, money orders, and negotiable instruments or investment securities in bearer form.

---

 

by Anonymous
on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 18:47
#183593

I have twice carried five Krugerrands through airport metal detectors with no alarm. In one instance, eight Kugerrands set off the alarm. Subsequently, three went into the x-ray tray and the remaining five got through in my pocket with no alarm. Kruggerands are 22k with 9.2% copper alloy. I suspect 24k coins (99.99% pure gold) may not set off the detector in any amount.

At present, one must declare $10k or more in cash and negotiable financial instruments upon leaving USA. Gold is not a negotiable instrument and is not subject to declaration upon leaving. However, it is considered dutiable when entering most countries and is required to be declared and have duty paid when being taken into another country. An exception is that India does not require duty on personal gold jewelry.

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 16:03
#182341

"Try getting gold through a metal detector"

I have (400g) and it was a non-issue.

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 19:18
#182522

Carried gold lots of times through airports. It is still NOT illegal to do so.
So why the paranoia about metal detectors ?

by MarketTruth
on Wed, 01/13/2010 - 06:25
#192128

Cash as King? Tell that to the folks in Korea who suddenly saw their cash devalued by a factor of 10 or the guys in South America who had their currency value cut in half overnight by Chavez.

Cash is king, what a maroon! Gold is King and i bet you the above two country's citizens wished they had gold instead of FIAT paper currency.

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 10:01
#181927

I have a dark suspicion this is also meant to prevent the same political shenanigans from possibly occurring back on democrats that was the setup before the elections in Fall of '08 in that huge run on MMs. Only these same thugs in office, in a nervous look-back over the shoulder, could think this necessary for cover in the next election cycle.

by sethstorm
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 15:08
#182279

I know of wealthy people who are disposing of assets, closing businesses and patriating all their $$$ to gold. They plan to live very simply, travel, declare their income to the IRS at what it is (just barely below the taxable rate which extracts from them), and live on savings until this thing either collapses or sorts out.

Fine, act as if you're beyond the reach of the government, and create the unintended consequence of killing a nation.

Do not think that ordinary people will not know who you are and what damage you have done.

by Seer
on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 00:18
#182721

And what of a corrupt and evil nation?

by darkpool2
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 16:17
#181406

and if they dont go out and purchase more unwanted "things", they will inflate away the value of the remaining "savings" of the recalcitrants.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 23:15
#181751

Great reporting, TD. Am wondering if this will apply to bank and credit union (federally insured) money markets as well as mutual-fund money markets?

by Anonymous
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 19:45
#182537

Who wrote this article?

by DosZap
on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 18:50
#182498

Agreed, great info.............Danka.

If there was one thing on which to hang your hat, that this entire fiasco was/is not contrived it's the Head Knocker, not listening to, and slapping this dog down........

  • Paul A. Volcker, Chairman of the Board of Trustees, Group of Thirty, Former Chairman, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.
  • He knows how to turn a crap economy around.

    If it was supposed to be turned, then Big Hoss would not have stepped on him.

    Shut him down, does not take his advice,...............but still keeps him  around.

    by Seer
    on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 00:28
    #182729

    Volker is like a broken clock, he was correct once.  Not sure if he could be correct again... this is a whole different ball game today.  He didn't have the mortgage situation back then.  Raising interest rates today would be instant death to the system (which is why they aren't raising rates).

     

    by Cindy_Dies_In_T...
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 11:23
    #181141

    Thats why I don't have one frickin "cent" invested in this shitinfested country.

    by Anonymous
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:17
    #181476

    Why don't you pack up your shit and leave this "shitinvested" country yerself sister?

    by DoChenRollingBearing
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:08
    #181517

    Diversification is smart.  You are wise to have some dough quietly overseas.  Gold is smart too.

    But, if you live here in our shitinfested country, you should also have assets here.  You might need them in a hurry!  And having something here is diversification as well.

    by Cindy_Dies_In_T...
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:55
    #181563

    Indeed, DoChen, I am a Rawles fan and am reasonably okay in that department.

     

    Anon-

    Why don't you go invest in GM and anywhere else where the Obamabots don't grasp the concept of the rule of law you brainless flagwaver? Have fun with that, clownfuck. 

    They really need to make these captcha questions more difficult.

    by Anonymous
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 03:34
    #181834

    Sin 2112 is just a stargate, which is a measure of absence. You shall not invest and be unmarked, not now, any longer. Shall you rise, having a measure of wheat for a penny? No! There is no nation that has not been given strong delusion; for having accepted the offer of temptation then consumed by the seal of the wine of wrath in the cup of fornication, where the barren womb of labor is entombed, baring the wages of inversion and death, having been aborted for the sake of a claim of dominion, which is the spirit of contempt in possession of corruption. See that you are not bound as the fool my friend, time is no more than the sealing at hand. Pray your name is not sealed among the numbered that are fallen. Stand fast my friend, and not naked before the gate of the fallen star, the bottomless pit of judgment. Divest from the black hole now and forever.

    by sethstorm
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 15:11
    #182285

    If that's what you call China, so be it.

    But the military can find you nonetheless no matter what part of the globe you and yours are.  Don't give them any motivation to pursue.

    by Seer
    on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 00:32
    #182730

    The US military?  The same one that cannot beat its way out of a paper bag? (thanks to its horrible mission/leadership)?  The one that relies on funding from defaulting US taxpayers?  LOL!  I'm sure that Romans once thought the same way...

    by Anonymous
    on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 02:22
    #182777

    Wisdom is The Truth among the numbered Saints. The Seer is the declaration and revelation of The Holy Spirit and The Host of The Law...

    A measure of wheat for a penny is fallen, the field is risen, Chauncey Gardner witnesses the reflection of innocence upon the waters of life.
    There is no choice, only agreement.

    by Rainman
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 11:25
    #181143

    Bank runs become illegal and the ultimate government takeover begins.

    The makings of the Great Revolution, for sure. 

    by Anonymous
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:33
    #181243

    It may not be "FIRE" screamed at the top of the lungs in a crowded theater, but this is decidedly an urgent whisper.

    Short-sighted and avaricious, cospiratorial men have hollowed out and honeycombed this economy with fraud and lies; the least of which is virtually unlimited ability to leverage throught the removal of Glass-Stegall restrictions and banks ability to fractionalize funds without regulation and without effective controls.

    Can anyone fully conceive of our financial landscape once these errors are corrected? What will the terrain look like world-wide once the balance sheets are eventually reconciled and un-serviceable debt is driven from the system?

    I suspect PMs will be bought and hoarded to exhaustion, as the people (sick of the perpetual manipulations and silent depredations), hoard away wealth and become severe misers for a generation or two. With all the implications that entails.

    by Rusty_Shackleford
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 19:54
    #181596

    Sniff... Sniff..

     

    Do you smell something burning?

    by MsCreant
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:56
    #181735

    I like the hollowed out honeycomb metaphor. Ever play Jenga?

    by SWRichmond
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:05
    #181459

    Yep.  Wait and see what happens when people are told they can't have their money.

    Blackwaterredrum is hired to do security in the Hamptons (if they haven't been already).

    by sethstorm
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 15:17
    #182297

    There are only so many Blackwater/Xe employees and contractors.  There are many more pissed-off citizens for whom have no moral issues with taking them on.

    Their few numbers would guarantee a bloodbath followed by Xe's defeat(and any further objectives in the Hamptons taken care of).

    by Seer
    on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 00:34
    #182731

    I've only yet read reviews, but the movie Avatar comes to mind...

    by Anonymous
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 11:38
    #181149

    So where do I need to put my money in order to keep "value".

    What is a value asset in "Worst Case Scenario" as opposed to cash.

    If equities are questionable, if MMarkets can be "suspended redemptions", where in the world is the "safe haven"????

    Is this now the state of the union that any asset I gain no longer has value?

    Does this mean that "intrinsic value" is really just that, eye of the beholder????

    When does the shooting start?

    by Selah
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 11:47
    #181157

    Gold? (bitches)

    by Rusty Shorts
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 20:30
    #181172

    Gold.

    by ATG
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:01
    #181198

    Not exactly.

    Default-driven deflationary times are not good

    for gold or most tangible assets except cash

    in hand. When bank runs come, people

    may be startled to learn how little cash banks

    have to give out. In November the FDIC quietly

    stopped guaranteeing over $250,000 in accounts.

    BAC, C, JPM, WFC just quietly announced

    they are dropping out of the FDIC account

    guarantee program. Try to withdraw more

    than $3000 in cash, suffer the procto-

    logical exam and be told to wait overnight.

    A friend withdrew $30,000 cash from one of

    the Big4 and was told he had taken all their

    cash. Either Brinks is going to get rich, or

    people are going to have a rude awakening

    when they try to get 'their' money and find

    out the Courts treat deposits as Bank property. 

    http://www.jubileeprosperity.com/

    by Anton LaVey
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:07
    #181215

    Good point. Cash, physical gold, physical silver are going to rule.

    by WaterWings
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:43
    #181383

    Yes, and have a small amount in cash. Say, no more than 10 Benjamins, $1,000. That way you can flash a Benjie at the idiot that is stupid enough to take it, and you can get what you need, whether it's safe passage or a freaking loaf of bread. If you still can't get safe passage you whip out your 2nd Amendment and see if he will change his terms. Nothing says 'don't touch' like a firearm. Whether or not you use it is a personal decision - hopefully you won't have to. 

    And whoever brought up bread for gold in a crisis is a moron. Bread doesn't last longer than a week. And whoever the baker is in a crisis is going to have to have some serious firepower to keep the zombies away with the smell wafting for miles. In a crisis you do not want to be bartering. Bartering is for after the dust settles where one can come to a reasonable agreement in exchange of goods or a service. If you wait until things get ugly to procure necessities you can be sure you won't get full value for your PMs and you are putting yourself and loved ones at risk. Bank runs are in times of desperation - don't plan on civility and order.

    Have the means to sustain life for at least a month while things settle. It won't be the same in all areas, but when the bank runs occur you do not want to be among the mob at the local supermarket.

    Collapse of Argentina will provide some documented insight. Be prepared:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4353655982817317115#

     

    by MsCreant
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:59
    #181740

    I have always thought of preps as my way to get through the bottle neck. The bet is, how long will the bottleneck take? Whatever you think that could be, stock up for it. But preps are transition, not what is on the other side.

    by WaterWings
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 11:15
    #181994

    That's the ultimate question! The 'transition' is the freaky part - who will be left standing after the proles realize there are no more food stamps (overnight Hurricane Katrina)? Sure, what if they start a rationing scheme - 'breadlines'. Imagine standing in line with guns pointed at you. They had an armed law enforcement officer when I was standing in line for Avatar - in a nice part of town! 

    Will everyone sit at home, patiently awaiting assistance? Or will they hit the streets? My belief is that any longer than 7 days of crippled infrastructure will unavoidably result in exponential meltdown. The police and military will be easily overwhelmed, especially when the former realizes there may be no paycheck and that they would rather be at home protecting their family.

    When the FRN is at least devalued a lot of people will wake up - it will be emotionally devastating for many. Even if they transition us into the EURO or a new currency, redeemable with devalued FRNs, I question how people living at the edge will pay all their utilities, gas to commute downtown from the burbs, food. Food!

    I cannot imagine a transition without martial law - allowing connected elite to flee to wherever with their Xe (Blackwater) escorts. Think about how ordinary people act when they can't get money from an ATM: no cigarettes, no booze, no twinkies - not to mention if they have an illegal drug problem. Imagine more than two or three days of that. If they can't electronically 'bankrun' you can bet they will go to the bank to talk to the manager - with a whole lot of other pissed-off, awakened slaves. 

    So instead of having to be in the thick of it, content to trade your gold or silver for last-minute necessities, why not plan wisely to 'get away from it all' and wait until it has calmed down again.

    by Anonymous
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:33
    #182148

    Where are the connected elite gonna go? If one nation goes kaboom, sure, there's always someplace better to skip to. But if the whole world hits a financial wall, IMO, no place will be safe for elite. Or perhaps, the only safe places will be already-existing, heavily-armed police states (who might decide to charge a lot of "rent", anyway).

    I think this time around, there is no obvious escape hatch. Hopefully, the experience will teach all of us something about a sustainable society.

    by Seer
    on Tue, 01/05/2010 - 00:38
    #182733

    They had an armed law enforcement officer when I was standing in line for Avatar - in a nice part of town!

    Whoa!  What was up with that?

    by Rusty Shorts
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:10
    #181218

    Maybe so, but try telling that to these guys in Brussels who are blowing up my phone.

    by nicholsong
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:34
    #181491

    What's your number, can I blow up your phone?

    You might got what I want.

    But I am small fry, as for my budget.

    Like yourself, I am not Chumbawamba.

    by Rusty Shorts
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 22:14
    #181691

    50 kg is the minimum amount that I can export from Accra, Ghana.

    Still interested?

    by nicholsong
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 15:51
    #182329

    Oh golly, wish I could, sir. Wish I could.

    by Rusty Shorts
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 19:29
    #182529

     - am just a middleman bro.

    by chumbawamba
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:51
    #181266

    EXCUSE ME.  Cash, by which I can only assume you mean dollars, are paper instruments.  They are a claim on an intangible promise by a bankrupt entity.  Yes, it is "money" in the sense that people can use it to barter for stuff, but seriously, what's your problem?

    Gold is money.  Gold is cash.

    That you won't want it when this fraud finally implodes is of little consequence to me since a few BILLION other people on this planet will.

    Gold is money.  In a default-drivent deflationary environment, gold will do exactly what it's supposed to do, which is to perserve your wealth.  You will still be able to buy the same amount of shit with gold as with paper money.  And on a long enough time scale, the viability of your paper money backed by debt will return to its intrinsic value, while gold will still be there, shining away as always.

    As the great Gordon Gecko said, you're an idiot.

    I am Chumbawamba.

    by Anonymous
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 14:07
    #181283

    True, cash is only a "virtual gold" able to exist only to the extent that the trading public have confidence that it will fulfill its role as such.
    It has ceased to function appropriately to its design, and the people (deluded, by long usage, into believing fiat the same as AU) are increasingly repudiating it.

    The gov't will pull the trapdoor on a devaluation operation as soon as they determine that the "run on the currency" poses greater jeopardy to the state than a currency dilution.

    They are near this point. They have been driven by the fraud, abuse of public confidence, and criminal accounting to ONLY these two choices...devalue the currency incrementally over time, or INSTANTLY.

    Time dilations are allowing the saavy to escape too readily, they are about to pull the lynchpin. They choose the time and place of their action, we either PREPARE NOW or endure further the arbitrary caprice of a bankrupt state efficient only in the daily innovation of their honor (or dishonor).

    by nicholsong
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:41
    #181498

    Indeed.

    ATG says banks dont have enough cash, then says cash is king.

    ATG says cash is king, then denies the king of cash (gold).

    ATG comments remind me of a passage from Frank Zappa's book:

    As you can see, ladies and gentlemen, this transcends mere Mumbo-Jumbo, sending us reeling into the realm of Mumbo- Pocus.

    by Rusty Shorts
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:07
    #181349

    @ATG,

     

    Munch on this for awhile;

     

    WASHINGTON -- US currency should include tracking devices that let the government tax private possession of dollar bills, a Federal Reserve official says.

    The longer you hold currency without depositing it in a bank account, the less that cash will be worth, according to a proposal from Marvin Goodfriend, a senior vice president at the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond.

    In other words, greenbacks will get automatic expiration dates.

    "The magnetic strip could visibly record when a bill was last withdrawn from the banking system. A carry tax could be deducted from each bill upon deposit according to how long the bill was in circulation," Goodfriend wrote in a recent presentation to a Federal Reserve System conference in Woodstock, Vermont.

    The 34-page paper argues a carry tax will discourage "hoarding" currency, deter black market and criminal activities, and boost economic stability during deflationary periods when interest rates hover near zero.

    It says new technology finally makes such a scheme feasible. "Systems would have to be put in place at banks and automatic teller machines to read bills, assess the carry tax, and stamp the bills 'current,'" the report recommends.

    Goodfriend said in an interview that banks might place a kind of visible "date issued" stamp on each note they distributed. "The thing could actually stamp the date when the bill comes out of the ATM," he said.

     

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/22172267/ASC-2009-Carry-Tax

    by MsCreant
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:18
    #181357

    Rusty,

    It just doesn't stop, does it? Again, it isn't happening, but that it is even being discussed. 

    END THE FED.

     

    by Pondmaster
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:05
    #181460

    As a nice dessert after our munch I offer imbedded chips , no cash at all . Don't use the chip and starve . Simple , easy , who cares what fiat garbage backs the chip. Prison for selling gold or silver and it becomes untradable, worthless. I too ask for a real answer on what to do . Truly there will be no safety . We will be slaves . Starvation is a powerful tool . Ask North Korea. Ask Ghetto Jews in WW2 . All this childish speculation is entertaining , but offers NO ANSWERS . Just more fears ad infinum . 

    by chumbawamba
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:26
    #181528

    The answer is gold.

    I am Chumbawamba.

    by Anonymous
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 20:45
    #181647

    Here is an answer. Make the study of virtue and perfection of your character a priority. Make yourself useful in a basic way by mastering an essential, necessary craft for society (small or large) to continue. Make a strong coalition through a network of friends and family, and reach out making more friends with the idea of NEVER TAKING from them in larger gradient than you provide. Store your accumulated wealth in Gold or Silver which is significantly more insulated from the systemic plunder which we know find our globe. Make yourself able in martial arts and use of weapons, but cross yourself never to resort to their use unless all other options are exhausted. Store up a basic food survival kit for you and loved ones which will last at least 4 weeks. Consider storing some fuels. Make preparation for living "closer to the ground" and growing your own. Secure your perimeter. Pay off your debt. Make close examination of your financial situation: come to a realistic conclusion on your ability to possess. Become lean, payoff loans, default upon those which you will NEVER be able to service. To the extent possible, obtain shelter with independent heat source free and clear. Have a "bug-out" bag for all your family members.

    Commit yourselves to strict adherence to the rule of law until such time that laws are made immaterial. Then plan escape to any other land.

    by chumbawamba
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 13:35
    #182151

    That's the long answer :)

    (A very good one, BTW.)

    I am Chumbawamba.

    by NumisEX
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:34
    #181493

    Doesn't inflation effectively imposed a tax on those who hoard cash already. Double taxation on money held outside the banking system, sounds like a C-corp.

    by tomdub_1024
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 14:29
    #182227

    sigh, like that info is going to help moderate my attitude-alternator consumption...:) Things just get spookier, wierder and worser...

    by jm
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 15:24
    #181365

    BAC, C, JPM, WFC just quietly announced

    they are dropping out of the FDIC account

    guarantee program

    Authentication requested, please.

    by nicholsong
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:13
    #181469

    ATG cannot authenticate it, because it's bullshit.

    Corporations like Chase and Citibank are dropping out of one part of FDIC coverage, specifically the Transaction Account Guarantee Program, which offers the 'double' insurance of protecting accounts above $250,000 per depository account. They are NOT dropping out of general FDIC coverage.

    Here are the Chase and Citibank statements on their changes.

    ATG is oversimplifying, but that's really no surprise, is it?

    If the point of ATG is to draw attention to bank weakness, well, No Shit Sherlock!

    by Pondmaster
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:13
    #181472

    http://www.creditinfocenter.com/wordpress/2009/12/23/chase-and-citibank-...

     

    after a slick 2 second goog search - viola !!!

    by nicholsong
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:15
    #181475

    Yeah, but that's NOT what ATG contended.

    ATG is trying to make it seem like they are out of FDIC coverage altogether, which is bullshit.

     

    by nicholsong
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:22
    #181478

    And as for the $3000 withdrawal problem, WELCOME TO 1999.  It's been a reporting requirement to Treasury's FinCEN since around 1999, perhaps as early as 1996. For a few years there they were lowering the requirements a few thousand bucks at a time (30,000 then 10,000 then 3,000 was I think the progression). 

    And if ATG would be so kind as to show where the FDIC has 'quietly stopped guaranteeing funds over 250,000' well that would just be giggity for me to see. 

    Here, ATG, I'll even help you with the FDIC link. Now you show me where they have stopped guaranteeing above $250,000?

    by Rusty_Shackleford
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 20:04
    #181611

    Interesting thought, but do you really believe TPTB would allow such a conflagration when it could all be so easily stopped by simply putting ink to paper?

    There can never be a real shortage of a non-redeemble paper-ticket currency of any consequence. 

    It can be produced at virtually no cost and in unlimited amounts.

    by trav777
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 11:51
    #182032

    The Fed has mfing vaults full of paper notes.

    Paper notes are easily creatable.  There will never be any shortage of paper notes.

    A bank lockup to prevent a run is a precursor to outright seizure and/or devaluation.

    You will NOT want to hold paper notes in the event that they lock up the eDollars.  You will want to transition those into something else because the devaluation is coming up the driveway.

    by Rick64
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 18:18
    #182475

    I had similar experiences in Fla. , I told them I wanted to withdraw 10k in cash and they looked at me like I was crazy, then said that they didn't have that much at the bank which must have been a lie or delay tactic. So I was given a cashiers check. In Japan and Singapore they don't even question it. In Japan 2 million yen at the time roughly 20k in dollars. In Singapore I've seen them hand 40-50k no problem and no questions. They claim its a safeguard against moneylaundering, but I believe its so they can keep cash flow under control. If it leaves the banking system then they have a hard time tracking it.

    by MsCreant
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 22:00
    #182638

    My bank did this to me when I asked for 4 grand. I took 2 grand away. I talked to the manager on the phone who freaked out that I was ever told that. She chewed her assistant managers out and I can pull that much when I want to. She did say that if I was pulling 10 grand that she would like a heads up for that, but it was no big deal.

    by DosZap
    on Mon, 01/04/2010 - 18:31
    #182486

    ATG,

    "In November the FDIC quietly

    stopped guaranteeing over $250,000 in accounts"

    Do you have a current link to this?.

    My Bank, not on the ESList, straight up told me this was still in effect.

    $250 per account holder, add sub holders, and you can hold well over.

    IRA's, are totally separate from that $250k...................

    by Anton LaVey
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:06
    #181212

    Gold. Physical gold. And hold that gold at your home, in your own safe. If not Gold, then Silver, same conditions. This is now the ONLY solution I can think of.

    by ATG
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:11
    #181217

    And become a robbery statistic or have the gold

    confiscated? Try to get a loaf of bread and

    change for a gold coin at the grocery.

    The only (currently unpopular) solution is cash

    for the crash...

    http://www.jubileeprosperity.com/

    by Rusty Shorts
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:13
    #181222

    Thieves will be more than happy to relieve you of your cash also.

    Whats up with the link?

    by nicholsong
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:23
    #181480

    Read my comments just above yours.

    ATG is full of crap, spreading crap, and probably just hucking his link.

    by Anton LaVey
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 13:40
    #181250

    Sure, you can confiscate my gold. When you find it. Ditto for the robbery. I could give a robber a couple of large, flashy, gold coins, while most of my stash is hidden safely away.

    As far as "buying a loaf of bread" is concerned, try this: you contact a baker, a real baker who still makes his own bread. Tell him you know times are tough. Nobody has money. Then ask him if he would agree to bake one (or more) loaf of bread per week for your family for the next three months. Then show him one -- exactly one -- gold coin.

    I guarantee you that, if times are tough enough, he'll take your offer.

    If times are really tough, replace gold coin by silver. Works everytime.

     

    by chumbawamba
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 14:05
    #181280

    Let's see, a decent loaf of bread currently costs about $5.  Let's assume it takes an average family of average size to consume two loaves of bread every week.  That's $10/week, $40/month.

    Gold currently trades at around $1,100/ozt.  $1,100 / $40 = 27.5 months of bread.

    A lot of assumptions here, but you get the idea.

    That's why we have gold fractionals, and of course silver.  And don't forget copper.

    I am Chumbawamba.

    by Anonymous
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 19:48
    #181592

    need copper for filling those magazines

    by Klaatu
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 23:16
    #181752

    "That's why we have gold fractionals, and of course silver.  And don't forget copper.”

    Exactly!

    What gold I have is meant for large purchases, silver for medium and copper for smaller. One doesn't head to the store to buy a loaf of bread with a fist full of benjamins. I’d add that I also stock piled (for trading) basic tools, cooking gear, seeds, etc..

    I am a Chumbawamba fan

    by dogbreath
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 14:11
    #181291

    Anton,

     

    I agree with you except for the point that you might misunderstand your opponents.  My copy is in a box somewhere but A. Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago has a chapter on gold confiscation, but there it was done by the government.  "  Now wheres the rest of it".   I read it somewhere else that the first move after the bolshevic revolution was the debasement of the currency and confiscation of all the gold.  

    The Kolima River in Irkutsk is the Russian equivalent of the Alaska goldfields.  It was very remote and reachable only once a year between freezeups.  The mortality rate according to A.S. was slightly below 100% per annum amonst the residents of gulag.  They were there for the gold.  

    Slippery roads ahead

    by Anonymous
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 16:35
    #181420

    Buy and store flour and get a breadmaker.
    Fast rising yeast too.
    Won't have to waste gold on food
    Use Gold to buy property, pay taxes.
    Use silver for wages, buy protection from
    pros and or gangs...
    Rinse and repeat....
    Become the next phase of bankster
    Rinse and repeat...
    Remember the phrase:
    "The best laid plans o mice and men often go awry"
    Its the best we can do..

    by pikledbill
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:25
    #181482

    Better yet: buy a cheap grain mill ($27 - hand operated) and grind your own flour (grain is easy to store), make your own bread...become self-sufficient.  It is not difficult and you don't have to be a wingnut to rationalize it (not suggesting anyone here is a wingnut - but then again, I don't think I am a wingnut, just saying...)...your own bread will taste much better than anything you can buy in the store, yeast starters are easy to keep.

    Even better: brew your own beer, save the grain and make your own bread with the spent grain...it is delicious.  Americans need to become more self-sufficient.  A person can make most of the stuff they need to survive (with minor storage issues regarding raw materials).

    by NumisEX
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 17:49
    #181502

    I find it interesting when people discuss using Gold as a medium of exchange during a TSHTF scenario. The only time you'd really be using gold is for exchange for safe passage or trade for free and clear real property.

    Of course don't expect change back when you and your family are starving and 1 toz of Au is the smallest demonination you got. If you had the gumption to obtain some Au, you should of have obtained some junk Ag like some Mercs and even pre82 pennies (95%) copper.

    Then again if there is an exodus good luck shelpping anything besides Ag or Diamonds.

    The trick is to hold on to your gold until stabilization when you can exchange back for a fiat currency (hopefully not 100% fiat) free of massive obligations.

    by chumbawamba
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 18:30
    #181534

    Nice summary.  Here's mine, even more terse:

    Gold and silver.

    Guns and bullets.

    Garden and water.

    I am Chumbawamba.

    by delacroix
    on Sun, 01/03/2010 - 19:27
    #181584

    hey chumba, don't forget the chickens

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