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The Greek "Ultimatum": Bailout (For The Bankers) And (Loss Of) Sovereignty
So after one year of beating around the bush, it is finally made clear that, as many were expecting all along, the ultimate goal of the Greek "bailouts" is nothing short of the state's (partial for now) annexation by Europe. According to an FT breaking news article, "European leaders are negotiating a deal that would lead to unprecedented outside intervention in the Greek economy, including international involvement in tax collection and privatisation of state assets, in exchange for new bail-out loans for Athens. People involved in the talks said the package would also include incentives for private holders of Greek debt voluntarily to extend Athens’ repayment schedule, as well as another round of austerity measures." Thus Greece is faced with the banker win-win choice, of not only abandoning sovereignty, a first in modern "democratic" history, in the pursuit of "Greek" policies that are beneficial for Europe, or not get a bailout, which would only serve to prevent senior bondholder impairments. How could Greek leaders and its population possibly not accept such an attractive option which either leaves the country as another Olli Rehn protectorate, or forces it to not bailout Europe's overleveraged banker class. In essence Europe is now convinced, just like Hank Paulson was on September 14, 2008, that the downstream effects from letting Greece implode are manageable. But the key development is that the Greek bankruptcy, which from the beginning, and as Peter Tchir's note below demonstrates, was always simply a Greek choice, was just made that much easier.
From the FT:
People involved in the talks said the package would also include incentives for private holders of Greek debt voluntarily to extend Athens’ repayment schedule, as well as another round of austerity measures.
Officials hope that as much as half of the €60bn-€70bn ($86bn-$100bn) in new financing needed by Athens until the end of 2013 could be accounted for without new loans. Under a plan advocated by some, much of that would be covered by the sale of state assets and the change in repayment terms for private debtholders.
Eurozone countries and the International Monetary Fund would then need to lend an additional €30bn-€35bn on top of the €110bn already promised as part of the bail-out programme agreed last year.
Officials warned, however, that almost every element of the new package faced significant opposition from at least one of the governments and institutions involved in the current negotiations and a deal could still unravel.
In the latest setback, the Greek government failed on Friday to win cross-party agreement on the new austerity measures, which European Union lenders have insisted is a prerequisite to another bail-out.
In addition, the European Central Bank remains opposed to any restructuring of Greek debt that could be considered a “credit event” – a change in terms that could technically be ruled a default.
One senior European official involved in the talks, however, said ECB objections could be overcome if the rescheduling was structured properly.
Despite the hurdles, pressure is building to have a deal done within three weeks because of an IMF threat to withhold its portion of June’s €12bn bail-out payment unless Athens can show it can meet all its financing requirements for the next 12 months.
And the latest set of very timely observations from TF Market's Peter Tchir.
You Can Lead A Trojan Horse To Water But You Can't Make Him Drink
Restructuring in one form or another seems imminent rather than years awayWell, it seems as though this week's news flow has spurred the mainstream media into action. Everywhere you look there are stories about the Greek credit crisis. It is encouraging to see that more of them now agree with my view that a restructuring would occur sooner rather than later. Only a month ago, almost every article and every piece of official street research made it clear that a restructuring was at least a year off, if not longer. I demonstrated why I thought that opinion was wrong, and although I haven't been proven correct yet, I am no longer in a tiny minority. Restructuring (reprofiling or default or whatever you want to call it) will not be easy, but I remain convinced that it is the best outcome for Greece and in the long run will be the best outcome for Europe even with the short term pain it will cause.
There is growing scrutiny of the ECB's actions and motivations
It has also become painfully obvious to everyone that the actions of the ECB are making any resolution more difficult. Someone, other than me, has now called the ECB 'pathological' in their resistance to restructuring. The ECB, led by Trichet, made a major mistake in their purchase of Greek bonds in the secondary market. It is unclear what they intended to gain (other than a short squeeze) as Greece was not tapping the capital markets for new bond deals. If Trichet worked at a real bank, he would have been fired by now, or allowed 'to pursue time with his family'. Someone who was not part of the bad decision would be brought in to oversee the positions. The ECB needs to change personnel immediately and bring in someone fresh to be part of the negotiations who can focus on what is best going forward and not on how best to cover up previous mistakes.
It is Greece's decision to default or not, NOT the ECB's or EU's
I continue to be confused by the fact that most people talk about the issue from the lender's perspective. "Should Greece be allowed to default?" "Does it teach Greece a bad lesson if they let them walk away? " "Won't Greece just default again if the ECB lets them walk away?"
The reality is the IMF, or ECB, or EU can offer money to Greece, but it is Greece's decision to borrow more to pay off old debts. Only Greece can decide to make payments and not default or demand restructuring. Other entities or countries can make it easier for Greece to kick the can down the road, but in the end, only Greece can decide whether or not to pay its bills.
The people of Greece seem to prefer default. It is fairly clear that this is not a short term liquidity problem, but a longer term solvency problem for Greece. Greece has some assets it can sell, but as I have said time and again, they will still have those assets to secure new funds after a default/restructuring. I continue to believe it is in the best interest of Greece to default and it is their decision, no one else's. It may be bad for the rest of Europe if Greece defaults, but that really should not be the priority of the Greek government.
If Greece defaults, the creditors can then take steps to enforce their rights. If a person fails to pay on their mortgage, the banks can enact their rights to foreclose. If a U.S. company fails to pay its debt, creditors will suit, and the company and debtors will typically resolve the issue in the courts under Chapter 11 or Chapter 7. There are similar statutes for corporate defaults in other countries. The real reason that we are hearing so much about this from the lenders perspective, rather than the borrowers, is because it is not very clear what the lenders' rights are if Greece stops paying.
If Greece stops paying, the lenders cannot 'foreclose' on it. There is no law that dictates how to proceed like chapter 11 does. The bonds have very few if any covenants. The lawsuits would have to be won in Greek courts and then enforced by people employed by the Greek government. Good luck with that.
The reason the lenders have an almost irrational need to avoid a default, is they don't know what they will get if Greece does default. There is no good way to analyze it. Their ultimate recovery will be based on some threats of future lending, rights of set-off, and maybe some threats of trade sanctions, but unlike a mortgage or a corporate bond, there is no good way to analyze the potential outcome. There is a reason 'vulture' funds focus on corporate debt much more than sovereign - there is a way to analyze the outcomes, it is not just guess work.
So people can continue to comment on whether Greece should be allowed to default, but that misses the point. Lenders can make it easy for Greece to make payments, but choosing to default or not remains solely a Greek decision and they should do what is best for them.
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Greece cannot accept the terms. It's leaders cannot be trusted. The country must revolt.
It's all part of Delors' plan.
The internet wasn't, though.
Zuckerman did his part @ the G8 over this. Don't get me wrong; he's a toad, and deserves hurting, but at least he's still semi-authentic. In wankery.
The real story is a whole lot bigger - and involves "there's only 3 [6, but 2 ain't public, and 1 you'll never know about] intranets with over a million users in the world, and Sony got taken to the cleaners as a power-play".
Put it another way; it was argued that "gossip sped up by technology" wasn't a case for removing said technology, especially with all of the economic [data] benefits it brought. Accepted, and case carried [esp. once revenues were in; oh, and fuck Twitter for £25mil on an app that's crap - sigh. You weren't going to get cleaned out by the G8 anyhow, stupid cows for bowing to pressure & panic buying for security. Still, friend of a friend is happy. I say: stupid move now means no smart moves later - Twitter soon to be superseded].
Too late now. Protests have spread to Italy, France and hundreds of cities.
Merkel is packing her bags with gold bars and escaping to south american nazi safe haven, or to the Vatican.
http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/9/42312
The 'Indignants' gathered once more on Sunday in central Athens, joined by others in Milan's Piazza del Duomo, Champs Elysee in Paris and another 100 European cities holding simultaneous peaceful protests. Sunday's demonstration was the largest of the five consecutive protests that have taken place each night at Syntagma Square since Wednesday, with over 90.000 people participating.Barron's this weekend had their main article on Greece. The article (by Vito Racanelli) says the bankers should just accept 50% on the euro now rather than 30% or less in the future. Dexia (a Belgian bank) is on the hook for 3.46 billion euros! Ouch!
While I have not addressed Greece on my blog, some 90 ZH-ers have asked to take a look. Send me a gmail promising to behave if you would like to have a look as well.
Sudden Debt, I would really like to have you come by as I need experts (I claim no expertise in anything).
Funny. Another delusion. Two years ago, the voice of this site was Piltchard like, that the Eurozone was going to implode. Very US like.
In this US driven world, I took the other stance, that this crisis could be used to deepen the Eurozone integration, telling that it could lead to countries losing their capacity to taxation.
And here were are: we are nearer from Greece losing taxation power than the Eurozone implosion.
Once again, the propagandists are going to be revealed.
It is nothing new: Europe is following the US'path, that has shown what happens when a national people loses the power of taxation: elimination, disappearance from the face of the Earth. The US used that trick again and over again. It was expected that other people would be tempted to do so.
If this passes, it will be simply the end of the Greek people as it was known to become one entity into the new to come European people.
End of sovereignty for Greece. Real beginning of the European people as a sovereign.
Here is a cartoon how it started, and how it will end... A long, but worth waching and sharing with others... The American Dream By The Provocateur Network http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPWH5TlbloU Those who have no time watching it all, start waching from 22:50 min... But find some time in the future to watch it all...
Sarkozy has unleashed the ruthless french police onto peaceful unarmed civilians.
The protesters are reorganizing and will soon topple the fascist Sarkozy (the new Vichy) regime.
Facebook/Gog-Magog Google revolution version 2.0
I made it through the first half (watched it late-night), looking forward to the 2nd half. It's pretty great to see more videos breaking down the whole situation in ever-more-accessible fashions. This video is top notch, nice link.
Do you really think the Greek will pay their hard earned money to a bunch of red necks?
Do you really think a Frenchman will pay his taxes to someone who does not give him the immediate benefit?
There might be a political and monetary union in the EC, a cultural union might only come when PIIGS fly.
There will never be European people as a souvereign.
Wrong way to introduce stuff. Once again, the role model is the US and it is better to refer to the US to try to infere what is going to be.
Just as Dutch, German, English, French aggreed to throw under the train the negroes in order to get access to liberty as white people in a "the slaves, they are them, not me" stance, the real question is to know whether or not
the French, the English, The German, The Dutch and all the others (but Greeks) will support that an international institution consficates the power of taxation from the Greeks.
The answer is yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, definitively, absolutely and finally yes.
If they can sacrifice others in order to alleviate their struggling in the short term, they will do. The history of the US. From all Europe, there will be a resounding yes, rationalized by "the Greeks can not behave, we need our money back" motto, "the fair thing" to do etc
After that, Portugal, Ireland etc until the point the majority of countries has lost the power to taxation. At this point, why should the others be treated differently?
By supporting this act, the others will provide the justification for the same treatment to be applied to them.
An old trick perfected by the US.
Dont fear, the US has shown the road and the US citizen nature is eternal.
I could write a long response to the drivel you keep posting here but I won't waste my time. I'll just say you are a fucking idiot.
I think what he is trying to say is: 'Why would the Greek citizens accept the EU's proposal to give up sovereignty when they could just tell them to piss off and secede from the EU?'
You can all ready see they are protesting and have been for months. They seem to be the country least likely (unlike the Irish they continue their protests) to accept the terms of a bailout. Greece's citizens could choose to default (if there is a revolution in the end) even though the stooges in their government are willing to accept almost any bailout package thrown at them. To me (an outsider) it seemed as though the EU was rigged for some of the Western European powers (France, Germany, and England) to succeed while the other countries raised their standards of living by borrowing from these countries. Now that the bill is due it seems to me the Greek citizens don't want to pay.
You know, Ahmeexnal, the Second World War, which lasted six years in length, was almost 70 years ago and you may have read that the Germans were defeated. It seems a bit out of date to use the word “Nazi” in conjunction with present day leaders of Germany, one of the more enlightened western nations.
If I didn’t know any better, I would say you use the term in conjunction with the constant drum beat of Jewish hyperbole to attempt to keep the Holocaust Industry alive and foremost on the minds of Americans now paying a horrendous price for America’s Zionist foreign policy. But, perhaps, I am wrong….
she doesn't have to go that far away...
Lichtenstein is beautiful this time of year...
and what a plan it was... use monoply money to take control of anything of value in the world. any bets on whether they pull it off? Safe bet, the next couple years are going to be interesting at the public wakes up to the power cult's naughty behind the scenes activities... the banking system is just the start.
the usury clan NEVER learns do they? Pathologically self-deceptive. Even the deaths of millions and no introspection...wow.
are they self-deceptive, or do they not give a fuck?
but you were supposed to be a Christian Texasmudslinger and you use the f word.
A troll has to remember what he said in the past and try to be consistent
Wishful thinking at best. Nobody will revolt.
This article sums up what I've been repeating for one year now: no default, because it would mean the Pigmen have lost.
Your sir, are a pessimist.
I've mentioned this a couple of times, but the buy-in level for real revolution has been costed at $11-12k / annum.
Until I see another ZH poster acknowledge this, and then cite the papers, I'll ignore most of them as not being in the loop.
Oh, and I didn't agree with the paper - Vietnam and other riots show otherwise; however, who am I to question the model the ME revolutions are being played off? Apart from "I told you so", when a large European country discovers the freedom and joy of 1936.
"but the buy-in level for real revolution has been costed at $11-12k / annum."
Correct.
You of course mean 90% of the population.
Then they get 10% inflation?
Yes?
Meantime just feed as much as is needed.
Ef Ísland getur gert það, svo getur Grikkland.
Exactly.
You can't go breaking into peoples houses like that !!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r0iv3V_drg
There is nothing to see here
- G Pap
http://youtu.be/rSjK2Oqrgic
Exactly.
Not exactly.
Sigur Rós?
There have been revelations that the Prime Minister of Greece and his family forced the Hellenic Post Bank of Greece to sell it's 1.3 bln in Greek CDS to a company by the name of IJ Partners, of whom Papandreou is presumed to have a stake. The value of these contracts is now estimated at roughly 27 billion dollars. Members of parliament have spoken out on the floor, including leader of LAOS Mr. Karatzaferis, and New Democracy MP Mr. Kammenos.
This is enslavement of the highest order. Please read the document below and circulate it. It was the best I could do to piece together all the different pieces of news and information that exist on this from greek blogs, media and legal documents. If anyone would like to add or correct statements made within, please leave a comment on the blog post or respond to this comment on ZH.
http://coveringdelta.wordpress.com/2011/05/29/accusations-of-treason-in-...
Whether they took a payment or not is not the issue.
The Greek politicians are treasonous.
As are ours.
What starts in Greece won't stay in Greece.
This is infectious and we lack the political nuts to deal with that fact. obama is a child, a frighteningly narcissistic child. America has her pants pulled down in front of the world. I'm embarrased.
We could be so much better.
He is NOT a child ... he is very carefully carrying out what he was groomed, trained, appointed and directed to carry out. And so have all the others before him ... and so will the next one (whether it is Perry or Obama).
Not with an elected president under the current system, you won't. Not a chance!!
I live in Texas and deal with douche-bag Perry. The thought of him being president makes me shit my pants!
I loathe Rick Perry with every fiber of my being but is he any worse than this criminal Obama? I would like to see Obama publicly executed.
gmail me Vampyro if you would like to read my blog. Newest article: "Which is the Best County in Texas?" Other people who in on this can too.
I'm in Texas, can I get in on some of that action?
this wouldn't surprise me at all. But, I don't ee it as being just greece. you can see it in our legislatoure as well all the time. folks taking side of corporations that are clearly against the best interest of our country, if not paid directly with a nice job when office is done. just today goldman bought another legislator, sending the clear signal, back us no matter how wrong and you will get paid.
is everyone ignorant of Argentina's history at the hands of international finance capital?
Fuck, they DID sell off all the State assets to the favored bidder, never the highest. You had deep pockets like Petrobras trying to purchase O&G assets at market and yet the assets went for 1/3 to favored bidders.
The fuckin Presidents, Menem and de la Rua, had to be escorted out by military choppers because they took billions in suitcase money.
The elites WILL SELL the country out for their own benefit. And their replacements will HONOR the contracts because they understand that this is how THEY TOO get rich.
Only once a Hitler comes to power, be he in the form of Putin or Chavez or Castro or any of a number of tinhats, does this crap stop. And then they isolate him and practice economic and armed warfare, insurgencies, destabilization, etc. They let nobody actually get an army anymore to go into Sudentenland
I would think that Putin has more than anyone.
Of that, there can be no doubt..
Yes, trav, they will do as they want. Argentina is indeed a good lesson.
Papandreou is a British Agent!
Greece: The Curse of Three Generations of Papandreou’s http://www.voltairenet.org/article164586.htmlThe pigmen want to extend new loans. The pigmen have publicly stated they want the loans secured by Greece's gold reserves. The pigmen know that whatever the terms, Greece will ultimately default thereupon. (Termed Fraudulent Conveyance in the private sector.) The pigmen will then claim ownership of Greece's gold reserves.
(The pigmen are the world's ultimate gold bugs.)
For not the first time in history, the Super National will own, lock stock and barrel, a nation. (Ref, prior IMF involvement in Africa, Caribbean, etc.)
The pigmen shall buy on the cheap all functional assets of said country, raise tolls, user fees, tariffs, etc., thereby raping the citizens directly subsequent to have cleaned out said country's financial wealth (including gold reserves)
Prosperous business if you can get it.
Rape an entire country.
On the Street, there's a term of art for such activity; after you've bleed everyting possible from the client, go back for even more; Skull-Fuck
And would the capital for the "loans" be fabricated from nothing, a mere bookkeeping entry on the ledger of some central banks, the IMF, whomever?
The Pigmen have zero risk, the Greeks risk everything. Then call the guys wearing the blue helmets to put down the Greeks. Where's the 300 when you need them?
"Where's the 300 when you need them?"
Priceless
Exactly.
And if any Greek is reading this welcome to hell.
You are now all slaves.
first they came for the greeks....
then...
I see that you heard the speech from Kammenos
do i have to hear it from Kammenos?
one thing that never changes is humans....always the same...and it goes around repeating the history....just read it and you know what comes next...
no, you're right unfortunately
Revolt now, before they sell everything.
email me Oracle, I now have a blog you might like.
Actually, "First they came " is a very famous statement that has as been generally associated with one German Pastor Martin Niemoller when he was referring to the complacency of the middle class Germans in the face of an ever increasing threat to freedom from Hitler's Nazi's whcih began as supression of speech, general freedoms, monetary controls, expanding wars and ended with mass extermination.
As applied in this case, I believe he was referring to Greece as being the first of the modern developed countries to fall under the fist of the Bankster/World Domination fascist deluge essentially imprisoning the populace after looting their wealth.
Loosely, the Pastor's famous comment has been repeated as follows;
The bankster/CIA pigmen passed laws creating black markets, brought the drugs to the black neighborhoods and turned them into war zones in order to shred the constitution and turn would be MLKs into TuPacs. They then mass incarcerated blacks to the point that more blacks are in prison now than existes under slavery; the new Jim Crow.
So really, they came for the blacks first and now they're coming for you.
There are generally four groups cited in Niemöller's quote. Beyond that it gets a bit tricky, other than most Jewish groups and Holocost memorials seem to get it wrong.
http://www.martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de/4/daszitat/a46
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/niem.htm
Playing Devil's Advocate here:
Yes, it does seem devious from the way you describe the plot of the international elite. However, if the Greek people were more like say Germans, they would not need to be begging for a loan all the time. By this I mean they were diligent workers, honest and upstanding, paid their taxes, and put in the same hours and years at the job.
As an aside, I have been dunking my brain into many books dealing with the third world, and the way the international community interacts with them. As you may know, the IMF has a tool called a SAP, which ironically enough does exactly that to the host country. Thus the natural resources, including gold, of a corrupt, incompetent nation are drained away to the stronger, more capable hands. It seems that capital has its own force of gravity, and it is concentrating in the blazing sun to the detriment of the feeble periphery.
Nice narrative. And of course, people in position of inflicting such treatment have no incentive in finding out that others are corrupt and incompetent.
Farming the poor, extorting the weak. Better to find a new line of rationalization.
-
Awesome post Knukles. I just hope this will not come to pass. Instead I sincerely hope Samaris has the balls to deny Papawhatever more sacrifices from the Greek people. Enough with the bailouts of stupid bondholders who did not do their homework. If the banking system is affected, so what. Let the motherfucker burn and the chips fall where they may. Wipe the slate clean.
They are already revolting, cause they make them revolt.
Greece roadmap:
- Make them revolt
- Install armed forces junta and martial law
- "New (old pig) Deal"
Well great - if they in THIS state of things bring in armed forces, there will be civil war. And it will not stay confined to greece.
"Out of chaos comes order"
-Nietzsche
The perfect excuse for the NWO (however or whatever it is, may be, labelled, interpreted as, etc.) to demand the Blue Helmets, NATO, EU or similar, martial law, capital controls....
You get the drift.
Exactly and straight from the assumed paranoid/conspiracy theorist playbook. The only catch in the argument is that it matters not whether there is or isn't a NWO, whether there is or is not a conspiratorially manufactured need for blue helmet intervention, capital controls, etc., it is what it is, and if it continues about at the current pace, it can likely degenerate into civil war, accompanied by attendant repercussions.
So it matters not how we imagine getting there, the risk of the moment is that we are proceeding full apace toward a seminal conclusion of those sorts.
German BILD says the CIA foresees a coup in greece. ;)
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=report-military-coup-possible-i...
Not this time I think.
Bankers sending military forces into Greece would likely ignite civil war in all these debtor nations and bring down the entire Euro ponzi scheme.
Protests ok. Civil war no. Bankers won't cross that line.
People are figuring that out as bankers give more and more ground trying to avoid civil war in all these debtor nations.
Bankers rely on peaceful compliance. The take whatever they can under peaceful compliance, stopping short of precipitating civil war.
Good people need to take simple notice that despite Greece being in Europe, its size and economic affect are not unlike say Pennsylvania. This emerging IMF-banker-itsforyourowngood "Greek model" is a framework unto which any leveraged "democratic" polity can be played - the privatization of government.
Again with feeling. You are going to have to pick a side; Corporations or Citizens.
How bad are things getting? Watch Democracy Now and Alex Jones. The "extreme" "left and right" are talking about the same thing these days. If your speech includes the words "Democrat" or "Republican" then you are part of the problem and you will be harvested from an ocean of hapless fish to grind out the evil absurdity of this economy and its defenders.
I agree...
Uh, to say Greek leaders can't be trusted is an understatement. Kammenous just tonight (5-30-2011) accused Papandreou on the floor of the Greek parliament of treason with some pretty specific accusations related to trading in CDS of Greek debt. I haven't independently verified or researched this, but it could be a game changer and take down the whole current Greek regime with historical consequences.
Tyler, you gotta check this out.
http://bit.ly/ispjHG
I am dubious that the mtm of the trades is $27 billion (would imply a notional of around $100bn, which is simply far too big for the Hellenic CDS market), but there is no doubt that the entire economic and political system in Greece is rotten to the core.
What seems clear is that it is impossible to expect the Greeks to institute the reforms necessary to stem the crisis. There are too many people trying to hide their crimes and thefts over the years to obtain sufficient honesty. Huge quantities of money has simply been siphoned into Swiss and Cyprus bank accounts. Massive black holes exist within businesses, government departments and pension funds. The privatization plan is a joke - once the foreigners appreciate the hidden debts, the real cash flows and the stranglehold the unions have over the workers.
The EU/ IMF find themselves in a situation where they are being forced to take these steps, but should know that the Greeks will consider this a turn to the days of Ottoman rule and will feel justified in more tax evasion, more protest. The problem is the economic reform can only come after a social and political reform, which in Greece will be violent. The political and banking class in EU/ IMF want to find the easy way to transfer the losses in the banking sector across the broader electorate, as they think it is the easiest way to hide their crimes and mistakes, so they want to extend the farce, but there is no easy way to force the changes Greece need to make.
The EU cannot continue to prop up a rotten system which is not willing or capable of true reform.
([INSERT COUNTRY NAME HERE]) cannot accept the terms. It's leaders cannot be trusted. The country must revolt.
The banksters have been reading the art of war too much and thinking they are better than that....
If the banksters don't get paid back with interest the money they created out of thin air, they'll bring down the world economy just as Lloyd Blankfein and his demonic cohorts threatened in the autumn of '08. Maybe the time has come to...
FIRE THE BANKSTERS!"Fire The Banksters"! If you mean tie ALL of their asses to a stake and torch the Bastards, then YES, I'm all for it! and yes, I'll be the one to set the Bonfire first.
Armed revolt bitchez.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmOH5f1J1Uc
Time to get some balls.
Oh, and Tyler - the FT is on GMT, which is 00.25 at this moment; are you in the same lock-in I am?
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmOH5f1J1Uc"
"YOU THREATEN MY PEOPLE WITH SLAVERY AND DEBT!"
Excellent. Time to dig that pit and start the parade
THIS IS GREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECE
Fuck them
BTW ZH, can you do an analysis of bank crises over the decades, there was one in the mid 1800s with a bank in Norwich UK because of taking too many risks that the BoE baled out?? in the end?? I bet there were many and they all said the same...dooooooom, the end of the world is nigh unless you bail us out.. just like the rapture... but governments believe in the regular raptures that are predicted yet fail to happen again and again
I know Tyler has lots of spare time for this research (!!). So to give him a break, please refer to Reinhart and Rogoff, "This Time is Different." Although it appears chewy, the first part is just methodology, and the last part is footnotes. The central part is very readable and has many tables with information about financial crises of the past. Highly recommended.
Privatization of state assets. Hmmm. Here's an ominous idea....how about Uncle Sam paying a private entity to fulfill its medicare obligations? They can then tell the obligees that they need to go talk to the folks down at AIG about their medicare. All along I had figured we'd just dilute the living shit out of eveything via hyperinflation, but there's another dimension to that. The government can shrink the cost of their obligations through currency devaluation, and then outsource the obligation itself.
The government can shrink the cost of their obligations through currency devaluation ...
Yes I believe that's the chosen route in America.
Having the world reserve currency allows the Fed to do that ...up to the point where the dollar collapses ... and they don't know where that point is.
I think if the government does accept the 'terms' the people will revolt.
The troika just won't stop will they? It sounds like they WANT Greece to revolt. The Euro and Greek 10 yr will collapse this coming week.
that way they get to intervene with military force? To protect humanitarian rights of course
I'll start my old Panther Panzer. But not to drive to Greece. With gas prices like this - it would be sheer madness. But instead I'll drive to Frankfurt - ECB building...
So, when Greece defaults, and is hit with sanctions, embargos, war?, will that save the USD?
Would another European World War kick the can again?
So... this is good for silver... right?
You seem obsessed by silver. It's the beginning of a mental sickness.
You seem obsessed with trolling... I think that puts you well in to a mental sickness.
Hamy is right, silver is a sickness. And I got it bad.
Transformer, drop me a gmail for a look at my blog you might like.
WTF, still being sold out.
Looks like Goldman has given all the sovereigns better prices to get out of there risk assets. Goldman is always doing Gods, no matter how stupid they are!!!
Isn't this article mis-titled?
Shouldn't it read, "Bailout (for the bankers) or Sovereignty"...or, "Bailout AND (Loss of) Sovereignty"...?
"Or". I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Burnsey posted this link earlier
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_http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,764299,00.html_
"About 48 percent said Greece's first priority should be boosting growth, 38 percent suggested proceeds from assets sales should be used to kick start the economy and 35 percent said the money should be used to help pay down its towering debt.
European Union officials have asked Athens to step up privatisations urgently and suggested setting up a trustee institution to help oversee the process, similar to the body that privatised East German companies after the fall of communism. [ID:nLDE74K046]
First in line for privatisation will be divestments in Savings Post Bank (GPSr.AT), OTE Telecom (OTEr.AT) and the country's two biggest ports.
A second wave next year will include an up to 34 percent stake in gaming firm OPAP (OPAr.AT) and an up to 17 percent of Public Power Corp (PPC) (DEHr.AT).
Some 71 percent agreed with Greece selling its stake in OPAP with 65 percent favouring PPC's stake sale.
The nationwide poll conducted with a sample of 1,264 people May 17-20 also showed that nine of 10 Greeks backed the government's plan to redevelop the site of the capital's old airport at Hellenikon. Officials have said the project could raise 5-7 billion euros.
In another opinion poll on Saturday, the ruling Socialists lost their lead for the first time since 2009 elections, while another showed them slightly ahead of the opposition. [ID:nLDE74R0BW]
Struggling to impose austerity measures to pull the country back from the brink of bankruptcy, the ruling PASOK socialists are seeing their popularity wane, while the main New Democracy opposition party is not benefiting their opponents' decline.
"Citizens seem to be disappointed and exhausted from the ecomomic policies," Pulse head George Arapoglou said. "PASOK continues to slide so New Democracy was expected to come ahead although it shows no marked improvement."
The next election is due in late 2013."
There is absolutely no reason for Greece to sell assets yet. These assets can e.g. be used as collateral post-default and secure loans when Greece will have a hard time securing financing from the markets. Why sell them up front and waste the proceeds on interest payments by 2012? This is bullshit. Wake up, Greece!
Toss these bankster motherfuckers out of office and elect some honest politicians who are not brainwashed by eurocrats.
Yup, this ain't rocket science.
38 percent suggested proceeds from assets sales should be used to kick start the economy ...
What is there to kick-start?
We can ask the same question in America. What is there to kick-start?
That's why monetary stimulus doesn't work anymore. There's nothing left to stimulate.
There have been revelations that the Prime Minister of Greece and his family forced the Hellenic Post Bank of Greece to sell it's 1.3 bln in Greek CDS to a company by the name of IJ Partners, of whom Papandreou is presumed to have a stake. The value of these contracts is now estimated at roughly 27 billion dollars. Members of parliament have spoken out on the floor, including leader of LAOS Mr. Karatzaferis, and New Democracy MP Mr. Kammenos.
This is enslavement of the highest order. Please read the document below and circulate it. It was the best I could do to piece together all the different pieces of news and information that exist on this from greek blogs, media and legal documents. If anyone would like to add or correct statements made within, please leave a comment on the blog post or respond to this comment on ZH.
http://coveringdelta.wordpress.com/2011/05/29/accusations-of-treason-in-...
Read the link. Shook my head. I think I'm on corruption overload.
The accusations are frighteningly detailed and have been snowballing for months. Regardless of who exactly is to blame, there is something very suspicious going on here. The new "bailout" negotiations are being pushed heavily by the government and parts of the media as the only salvation for Greece. There is a sense of urgency that is being pushed that makes me feel very nervous for Greece.
"Leaving this uncertainty aside for now, we know that, so long as the credit protection remained at the Hellenic Postbank of Greece, the CDS contracts would function as insurance against the type of “credit events” that would transpire over the following twelve months. Indeed, the very insurance that was being held in public coffers by the Hellnic Postbank, is today worth approximately 27 billion dollars. Considering that Greece is now under duress to raise collateral for its “bailout” money, 27 billion dollars would go a long way towards preventing the privatization and sale of the nation’s assets to foreigners.Unfortunately, the Greek government is no longer in possession of this 27 billion worth of CDS, because it sold them in December of 2009, for a paltry 40 million dollar profit. The contracts were sold to a private firm for “high net-worth individuals” founded in 2009, by the name of IJ Partners.
IJ Partners, based in Geneva, has a number of well-known Greeks ...."
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Now THATS the fucking way to do it!
None of this paltry 9% excess return over the SP as done by our congress and reported on by ZH:
Why A Hedge Fund Comprised Of Junior Congressional Democrats Should Outperform The Market By 9%
__ mere pittance
Greek CDS-Buying Villain Hellenic Postbank To Be First Casuality Of Hellenic "No Bid" Privatization Reality
The Biggest Greek CDS Speculator Has Been Uncovered - Culprit Is... Greek State-Controlled Hellenic Post Bank!
And this story is far too incomplete. First of all the profit math is wrong. Second, Hellenic Postbank certainly had a more than offsetting amount of cash bonds on which to book losses. Third, and last, the buying party is irrelevant: it could have been anyone who offered to take the protetion off Hellenic's hands and the conspiracy stories would still swirl.
Number 1: What profit math is wrong? The 40 million dollar profit is what was reported according to people who looked at the books of Hellenic Postbank. What exactly are you citing as evidence for this statement? What is the profit of the sale then? Please support this statement with evidence.
Number 2: "Hellenic Postbank certainly had a more than offsetting amount of cash bonds on which to book losses." What are you talking about? What does this have to do with anything? Hellenic Postbank SOLD credit protection at a time when the government KNEW that this protection would increase in value. Is this a complete red herring? What am I missing here?
Number 3: What do you mean the "buying party is irrelevant??" You have missed the ENTIRE point of the freaking article clearly. The buying party is THE MOST RELEVANT. Don't you get it? The accusation is that the buying party is directly connected to the Papandreou family. The fact that a sale would have clearly started conspiracy theories is a given, but so what? This is another red herring. I have no idea what your sticking point here is.
Also, your interpretation of the Hellenic Postbank situation was completely off base. You make it sound like Hellenic Postbank was the one doing the speculating. They bought the freaking securities in the spring and summer, before spreads even broke loose. They were not trading the securities. They were HOLDING THEM.
You missed the ENTIRE POINT of the story, which was not that Hellenic Postbank bought the securities, but that they were sold at the most critical time to a private wealth fund.
If this is true, it dwarfs Bernie Madoff since he is sacrificing his entire home country rather than hundreds of rich friends. Plus, it falls into the unintended consequences category that could set off a true black swan chain of events. The backlash from his own countrymen could be so severe to the point it would set off something akin to the French Revolution. This is treason to the highest level possible. He should be guillotined for this.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
Ovid
dammit hamy you're good.
frankly molotovs are all i can see coming of this. the fiat bulls who believe this'll be positive for the euro because a shite economy will be departing, bollocks. 2 months was it until greece runs out of cash? i suspect internetworked hyperinflation will be breathtaking to behold.
He gets the uptight tighter.
They'd be crazy (Both Greece and the lenders) to restructure another bailout. Default, and see what happens. There will be seizures of any Greek assets in the EU & elsewhere, expulsion from the Eurozone (So they'll have to go back to their Drachma), severe downgrading of credit, and may be even diplomatic threats - that's as far as it can go. But the creditors will probably be lucky to get back pennies on the dollar when the dust settles.
With the probable exchange rate from the Euro to the Drachma in the 1000's to 1 (Maybe even 50,000,000,000 to 1 which happened in 1944 when old Drachmae was changed into new), Greece will face severe shortages of imports, and getting credit will take awhile. With high unemployment, and all of the perks of being in the Eurozone lost, there might be an exodus of economic migrants from there to the EU (Which Greeks are entitled to do as a member), but I think that will be anticipated by neighbouring countries and the borders closed to prevent it. If you are Greek and you're smart, get out while you still can.
The good news might be increased investment, exports and tourism from the cheap exchange rate. But it could be a few decades before they get anywhere near the standard of living they enjoyed under the EU/EMU umbrella. As I posted before, I look forward to changing my Pounds into Drachma on holiday as I did when I was a kid.
"There will be seizures of any Greek assets in the EU & elsewhere"
It's unclear to me that they get anything seized at this moment. Seriously, do they lose anything right now by defaulting?
The danger is that the Greek leadership is so corrupt that they are in full blown treason. Not only are they ingratiating themselves with foreign banks and agencies, but they could very well be actively profiting from a collapse.
Greeks are not going to stand for this. This is a sham and we know it. This latest news to come out all over Greek media will not be muffled. It is only a matter of time now before this sparks a full blow rebellion against the government. This is high treason.
All political parties should join forces with the same message. Avoid civil war bcause that's what he banksters want.
Those are very distracting! But nice.
I will refer you to the rapid seizure of Col.Gadaffi's funds and assets in the EU and the USA. For a country of Greece's size, that may be quite a bit - we're talking pension funds, national fund management accounts, real estate, and the portfolios of key figureheads in Greek government.
They may lose these, but at the same time they gain their economic independence - for whatever that is worth. Seriously, they gain by the amount they actually cannot pay, which will be a substantial percentage of the debt. Pennies on the dollar is what creditors can best hope for. We have already done a case study or two on sovereign default on ZH, and my post is based on those.
Thank you.
I'm not even sure they would lose that.
But thanks.
Welcome. Thanks for the avatar! :)
Well... Unless civil unrest causes the UN to send in peace keeping roops to enforce court ordered repayment... Followed by the Greece equivalent of 1984...
And if they do not impose sanctions/go to war, what would stop Ireland, Spain, France from saying FU... And if THEY get away with it...
Finally, someone who gets my point.
Not like that pretentious cunt atomizer
That's a possible scenario, and of course the dominoes are likely to fall if one goes. I have to add though, devolving their currencies is hardly going to be an easy option.
I see a trade-off between the political ramifications & severe instability of devolving their currencies, and the imposition of severe budgetary restraints from the ECB which is very unpopular in these states. Either way leads to one form of social chaos or another, but it seems to me that in the short term, the least chaotic path is being enslaved to the bankers. So some would undoubtedly choose stability (Being able to eat) against chaos (Starvation).
So, the Greeks (and others) must ask themselves, what price economic freedom? When the shops are empty, there are no jobs, travel to the rest of Europe is restricted, and your own currency buys nothing but olives and turnips for years, is it going to be worth it? Well, yes probably. Given time and their efforts, they will recover and more importantly they will be able to dictate their own economic destiny without being beholden to a bunch of vampires leaching away their future. Difficult choice. Who dares wins, so default I say and hide the silver from the bailiffs.
"but it seems to me that in the short term, the least chaotic path is being enslaved to the bankers. So some would undoubtedly choose stability (Being able to eat) against chaos (Starvation)."
I'm sorry, but the Greeks will find a way to eat.
I'm sure.
It was (at least partly) a bridge-burning exercise, intended to constrain the actions of EU governments.
What's the angle here. Seems like they know Greece will default no matter what? Extent and pretend to line their pockets or force them to agree on terms then take their stuff and make them debt slaves?
Watch the EU death spiral begin in. 3. 2...1. You'll want to stay tuned this week , going to be good.
How ironic , the Euro is at near record highs as it starts its death rattle. This is going to be a hell of a ride down for anything related as risk over the next few years.
So everything thats worth anything gets taken in return for absolutely nothing.REVOLUTION NOW.
Mr. Goldenballs.
I do believe you've said it.
...whizz out a few F16's overhead to make sure all the cafe owners pay their tax
Its ludicrous
The Defaults just walked into town...
Bond futures are up.
Stock futures are up.
Gold futures are up.
Looks like the weekend "crisis" was a non-event.
http://clearstation.etrade.com/cgi-bin/bbs?post_id=9744126
Nikkei is taking it in the brown eye,
Heavy shit going down, kinda dumb to be holding stocks going into June.
If by "up" you mean "flat" then you are correct.
The E/U is down a bit...everything else is pretty much flat.
do you actually look at live charts? or do you just run around saying shit is up out of some sense of sheepish obligation?
I must admit that I am getting sick of robot trader also.
EURO is UP as well....:=)))))
Exactly. I didnt give this any thought. I was too busy sloshing down my fucking fat burgers .
i, for one, do not think it would be premature to consider that TPTB are doing this to destroy zeroHedge.
certainly, greece is not worth such a price!
Of course not, Slewie.
Just as we need the CNBS of the world to remain attuned to the "party line", they need the ZH's of the world to remain in touch with reality.
Remember, one cannot live too deeply within a rabbit hole, else one looses touch with reality. One drink one's own poison, begins to believe one's own propaganda.
Just wait,the british are done, or Us does what ?
bullish
if Greek leaders agree to this proposal, I am confident that they will do so and make the announcement...from the safety of an underground bunker located in a country other than Greece...if not entirely another continent.
If the Greeks have assets to sell, why should they need ECB/EU/IMF-bailout loans? Revenues from selling could go directly to the creditors, without taxpayer involvement.
Indeed.
Why are the Germans and French so anxious to acquire property rights on Greece?
It's a scam.
Sure Greece needs to work out it's own economy and not be dependent on "borrowing".
Let them be.
The EU/ECB are nothing more or less than a Fascist construction.
I wonder if the private bondholders get screwed. The confisquation of assets only serves the taxpayed bailouts. When the job is done, banks and other private holders end up holding the bag.
Exactly, my Lord,
Why else not simply sell the assets, the physical plant, or indeed pedal off the Gold Reserves before arguing incessantly over the scope and composition of more debt and fiat?
For there is no real desire to sell that which is valuable to resolve the outstanding claims, particularly when the lenders are in so deeply that a simple, irreverent and irrevocable "Go fuck yourself" from the Greeks brings the whole European economic house of cards down.
They are already at the precipice, tottering over such, possibly even beginning to fall. But at this juncture, with a background in fixed income, I can assure that Greece holds all the cards now.
"...the lenders are in so deeply that a simple, irreverent and irrevocable "Go fuck yourself" from the Greeks brings the whole European economic house of cards down...Greece holds all the cards now."
Yes indeed. You nailed it. The eurocrats and banks are growing increasingly nervous. The rhetoric in the next few months will be something to remember. I expect the statements coming from corrupt politicians and bankers will be pure comedy going forward. If it wasn't so tragic, anyway. They really are destroying everything in their path.
Does anyone see, on this Memorial Day weekend, the irony of the Germans parlaying their investment in Greece into the control that they failed to achieve during WWII?
Yes.
Hitler went into Greece to protect his flank and outmaneuver the British. Nothing more.
Greece was a side show.
That and because the Italians botched the job.
+ Lebensraum