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Greek (Inverse) DIP Update: Bailout Loans To Be Junior To Existing Claims
In breaking all ties with reality, the IMF has decided that not only will US taxpayer money be freely abused to rescue a profligate Greece, but that money will be effectively junior to existing claims, in essence making it some MC Escher DIP reverse DIP nightmare. Basically US taxpayers will be Last In, Last Out, and will recover any proceeds only after existing creditors get paid out. Pardon us, but this is bloody ridiculous. When will someone in the mainstream media start focusing on this??? Americans are getting the short end of the stick, and nobody in this country knows or cares about it.This is more billions that will be promptly paid and never recovered.
Euro Intelligence reports:
In a conversion with German MPs, that was already being leaked while it was taking place in the Bundestag, Dominique Strauss Kahn outlined some of the details:
- The package would be in the order of €100-120bn for three years, during which Greece would be taken off the market. (Germany ‘s economics minister said that Germany contribution would be €8.4bn each year for three year running, with a risk on the upside. The Germans had apparently thought that the €45bn would be the total size of the package)
- The package will contain no element of restructuring and rescheduling
- The loans will be junior to those of the existing bondholders.
Everything, and we mean everything, is being done for Europe's banks to not experience even one cent of Mark to Myth losses as that would set off the entire house of cards. Who is paying: European and US (and global) taxpayers. Why? Because the alterantive is the same "end of the world" bullshit we have grown to love and expect.
Even Germans, still staunchly opposed to the bailout, are voicing in on Merkel's lack of decision-making ability:
A frong-page editorial in FT Deutschland launched a severe attack on Merkel, criticising a total loss of reality by ignoring the problem, and saying that her procrastination is adding to the cost of the crisis. Martin Schulz head of the Socialists faction in the European Parliament said that the aid should have been decided a long time ago. He accused Merkel of Greek bashing, as she tried to benefit politically from the rising anti-Greek sentiment in Germany. The Italian economist Tito Boeri said that each days of this crisis would cost the German taxpayer dearly.
As for the Greek response, we are still confident a government overthrow is merely months away:
Kathimerini quotes Juergen Stark as ruling out the possibility that the ECB might end up buying Greek bonds. In a separate article, Kathimerini reports that IMF/EU/ECB sought to cut the 13th and 14th salary but labour minister Andreas Loverdos said that this is not acceptable to the Greek government. Pushing retirement age and job cuts in the public sector are other sensitive issues (see Kathimerini). The government still expects to end negotiations on Sunday and to get aid by May 19. Strikes are likely to continue until the summer, but the hard part only starts later.
h/t Paul
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Unless the US has decided to contribute directly to the EU loan ( if it happens) then how is the IMF loan subordinate?
That said, listening to Ollie Rehn, the EU commissioner in charge of extra syllables and cat herding, getting the Greeks to agree to the 'conditionality' of the EU loan seems to be as big a cat to herd as getting the Germans to fund it!
We're gonna need a lot more rope.
we're going to get a lot more "rape"...
"Hey, who's that skanky chick over in the corner?"
"That's Amerika. She'll let anybody do her! Ask Benny, Barry or the Bushman. They ALL done her Gpap"
Germany however is a stern mistress: rumor has it Merkel wants the German loan to Greece to be secured -- by Greek real estate as well as pieces of profitable Greek companies.
Nah. I'd rather the skanky chick blew me.
(Swallow, bitches)
Anybody know who's the favorite to win American Idol?
Finally! Somebody with a sense of priorities! :-) [/sarcasm]
No, but Uncle Sugar is offering some sweet deals. I'm texting this on my i-pad using the wi-fi at Starbucks which I can afford since I stopped paying my mortgage. This afternoon, I'm going to drive my cash-for-clunkers car around and "reserve" myself some cash-for-appliances deals. Why worry? Uncle Sugar will always be there to protect and serve us.
Jack Bauer
The Dark Toad:
Janet Napolitiano
Bend over USA and take one for the fiat money team
there are already 100's in there, so what is another one?
Now that's a funny visual.
Here's another: Gold = Fiat currency colon blow.
Well a systematic abuse does not end with something good I suppose and the history shows it... the main question is WHEN?
This is beyond strange. Everything stopped making sense a long time ago. Media coverage where? The average U.S citizen has no clue. We continue to walk around like everything is fine. The market set to ramp again. Whats it going to take?
listen, things will not change. it's too late to stop the madness. there's no way to fix it (global economic fiat system) without a lot of pain so there will be no fix. all you can do is prepare yourself and loved ones. once you're prepared, just sit back and enjoy the luxuries of modern life before it unravels and then all you can do is watch the world burn.
It's like a game of economic Jenga: see how much income you can take away from the American tax base until it all comes tumbling down.
I am Chumbawamba.
Early on, when I adopted the Austrian outlook, I told myself that the best and most reliable indicator of "end game" would be a marked acceleration in overt looting by the power structure, just like the LA riots except on a much grander scale and in suits. Here we are.
My indicator of the "end game" was when the "powers that be" started to turn against themselves in a bid for total control and emerge as the single "power that is".
I guess we are seeing a bit of that too, but there is still much more looting to be done!
It's ending right now. It's easy to forget that everything happens at the margin. We all have our own exit strategies.
Early retirement
Back to the land
Underground economy
Have passport, will travel
Mine is actually a blend of all of the above. Remember Ayn Rand's iron law of socialism. "The best always leave first."
Maestro, could we have a little traveling music?
Where to? Colorado valleys protected by cloaking rays are a fantasy. The book is a nice portrayal of the problem characters, helps readers to recognize the enemy, but offers little in terms of practical solutions. Probably because there aren't any.
Oh ye of little faith.
The small town midwest and midsouth haven't changed much since the fifties. Boring as hell, isolated, dressed for comfort or the weather, but never for style. They are also oddly generous and welcoming to strangers.
Gold is great. Open pollinated seeds are better. I got my first shotgun when I was eleven, and no pussy 4-10, but a 12 gauge, full choke. Still, when bad things happen, the only real protection is relative isolation, and neighbors who share your values. Happy trails.
Seeds are ok. A couple stallions and 100 brood mares are better.
12 gauge? Find yourself in acute need of isolation from up to 20 strangers? http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/md-arms-saiga-12-20-round-drum-magazine-p-351.html
Suzkerrrrrrrrrrrrrrsssssssssssssssss!
(which is Greek for suckerrrrrrssssss.)
So does Obama now officially report to Dominique Straus Kahn?
No, only Bilderberg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4290944.stm
This BBC piece was in second place of their most shared items 1 hour ago, front page. Now it is impossible to find it on the BBC site... although the link is still working for now......
They have power my friends
Go to the BBC home page and try to find the article. Its not there anymore. How long before the link is deactivated??
"Last Updated: Thursday, 29 September 2005, 07:42 GMT 08:42 UK "
I love a good conspiracy, but I think that it might be an old article...
Cudos...I missed that, but it begs the question how it made today's most shared list.
From the article.
"In an extremely rare interview, he played down the importance of Bilderberg in setting the international agenda."
Any entity (or person for that matter) that is given access to the Bilderberg group should be considered a de facto mouthpiece for the Bilderberg group. The BBC is a well know and well documented instrument of the state, that state being the state of the Ponzi.
Bilderberg group? What's that? I've never heard of them, so they must not be important. Are you some kind of conspiracy nut?
I'm a conspiracy realist.
Nice. I am going to use that one. I often ask people "when does a conspiracy become real as the facts present no other conclusion?" I often get a puzzled look to such a simple question.
"I often get a puzzled look to such a simple question."
That's because terms like "conspiracy theorists" and "conspiracy nut" are intended and designed to be brain freezers and you're asking the person to re-engage the brain. The puzzled look on their face is the dawning realization that they were an ass for accepting simplistic terms to describe complex subjects.
Everything I need to know is on Fox (or MSNBC, take your pick), and I'm pretty sure Mr. Beck hasn't ever talked about no builder burger. You wanna talk about conspiracies, how 'bout that lying two faced socialist Mr. Sotero.
CD. I've tried everything. I've spoken softly and slowly, I've asked simple poignant questions that a rational mind would demand answers to, I've emailed countless articles full of thought provoking material, I've blown peoples hair back with well researched facts and terms they've never heard of.... I can't open their mind for them, sadly. When a person does choose to open their mind there is a wealth of information just asking to be perused, but most can't/won't/don't want to see anything outside of their comfort zone.
Alas, you are right, as usual, conspiracy theorist/nut is just the rebuff that comes from an entrained mind being challenged.
It is immensely frustrating when you can't get the horse to drink after leading him to water. What is worse is the sense of urgency you feel to get the horse to drink. You sometimes feel that your well being in many ways depends upon the horse drinking. We are all in the same sinking boat and the majority refuses to acknowledge the sinking and thus won't bail.
From your point of view and apparently from reality, by not drinking the horse is actually endangering you and your family. This has a tendency to spark your fight or flight reflex and increases the sense of urgency you feel, thus making it seem to the horse that you are being emotional and not rational when explaining to the horse why it must drink.
Coming face to face with this led me down the path of understanding human psychology and eventually to exploring my spirituality. We humans have been down this path hundreds of times over the past 5 thousand years. Until we look within and understand why, it will not change.
That doesn't mean I don't have hope. The frantic machinations of the TPTB and the Ponzi indicate to me that the end of this cycle is very close. My task now is to enlighten myself and hope I find others who wish to walk the path with me.
Find yourself, then find the others. You, Crab Cake, have found me and I have found you. There will be others, of that I have no doubt.
Well said CD!
I used to "shout it from the mountaintops" to anyone who I though might want to listen. I have a total of 2 converts. I once thought that it was my duty to my friends and co-workers to prepare them for what is about to happen.
Now, I just ask questions of others to gauge the mindset of those around me because there are plenty in this nation who "get it"...
#1 People in my experience have full faith and trust in the Federal Reserve Note.
#2 People fully believe that this is a great time to "invest" in real estate. They don't expect to live in that house for 30+ years but are convinced that they can "flip it". Ironically, they don't believe that cars are investments even when I show them how much 1960's Corvettes, Mustangs, and Camaros sell for now. They also don't believe that internet start-up companies are good investments.
#3 They believe that the stock market is about to crash and are looking forward to loading up. They think that this upcoming crash is the "double-dip" and the last chance at a generational buying opportunity. They maintain a wait-and-see approach to Gold since they are sure that it will sell for less than $1000/oz. Only my two "converts" actually own Gold outside of jewelry.
#4 They have no clue about world events beyond what the MSM tells them. They know that Greece, Portugal, and Spain were down-graded, but have no idea of the implications. It's just like hearing that company XYZ was down-graded from hold to sell. "Big whoop", they think...
Granted, this is only my observations of a group of about 40 people, but it is stunning how similar their beliefs and actions are.
#1 People in my experience have full faith and trust in the Federal Reserve Note.
When that paradigm crashes their lives will, for all intents and purposes, end. It's a very difficult paradgim to escape because we are all imersed in it, in our daily lives. When you escape it you begin to see the bars of the cage you are living in, and I think a lot of people find that so scary that they re-insert themselves.
Central banking is the core tenet of the modern Leviathan state.
Perfectly stated C D. Most excellent....
The Nobel prize winning author, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, detailed decades of Soviet gulags, and the ~66,000,000 unfortunate inhabitants that were "never again to gulp fresh air" in his three-part tour de force, The Gulag Archipelago.
He describes the Loyalists, the orthodox Communists that sung praises to Stalin all the way to Perdition. Solzhenitsyn was well-versed in Newspeak, referring to Orwell, and called these "people who had carried out the monstrous cattle drive of "collectivization"", Goodthinkers.
Etc. This is all too familiar. To deny similar patterns is less a short view of history and more a naiveté of human nature; change in which is glacial, as Solzhenitsyn put it. To the very grave, the most "impenetrable" [also as the author put it] denied, denied, denied. Stalin purged many of his own to shake up the ranks; decimation.
The author explains their chief trait:
The author goes on to detail, in comical similarity to many attempts I have made, a conversation with an imprisoned Marxist scholar. It's worth a read - all three books! 2,000 pages, I know, and you might turn more cynical than myself! It's a playbook for what might be around the corner. So maybe skip it! And have a laugh at the impenetrables that surround you!
"the impenetrables that surround you!"
After exhausting myself from years of trying to penetrate the "impenetrables" I recognized the insanity of my own actions. To do the same thing time after time and expect different results is one definition of insanity and I was certainly guilty of that. In fact, I realized that the "impenetrables" were using my arguments and assaults as fuel to feed their denial, that I was in fact building their walls even stronger. Their ego was being feed by my ego. That my righteousness was fortifying theirs.
That was when I saw the futility of my fools errand, abandoned the "civic duty" excuse for pursuing my egoic righteousness and began to look within. I can not change what I can not control. The only thing I can change is myself.
Aaaah. And on those days I accept it, and actually succeed in all my personal goals, I feel great!
Alas, we do help them build their fortresses. We are their ignorance consultants.
Of course I was asking tongue in cheek as everyone knows our "elected" leaders are puppets.
If they are successful in implementing the Greece (and other PIGS) bailout in the typical Zimbabwe Ben, free lunch for everyone (except US taxpayers) fashion, then I suspect the crisis will immediately move to the core rather quickly. Bunds, Gilts, and US bonds should come under extreme pressure in short order. This is to say nothing of Japan, which could implode at any moment.
I'm trying to figure out what Germany gets with it's 25 billion euro "investment" in Greece. I realize they call it a loan but there is no way Greece can pay. That 25 billion is gone.
At present, the accepted number related to German bank exposure to Greece is 45 billion euros. Also discussed is the need for the lenders to take a haircut in the order of 40% of their exposure. That equates to 18 billion euros of losses. The 25 billion euro "investment" is expected to "replace" 18 billion euros in losses.
So Germany is buying influence for that extra 7 billion euros or does that premium go into someone's pocket?
At the end of the day there is a simple question... What does Germany get out of this deal?
Supposedly the Greeks will send down dive-teams to retrieve the Navarrone guns and give them back to Germany so they can convert them to BMWs. Vehr Stehen? Machts Nichts!
What does Germany get out of this deal appears to be the question being asked in Germany today:
The sense of panic and uncertainty surrounding the Greece debt crisis is captured in the headlines of all of Germany's newspapers this morning.
Leading the field is the tabloid Bild, hammering home the alarming message that: "The Greeks want even more of our billions!" The headline is crowned by the ominous figure: "25,000,000,000 euro!", the proportion of the bailout package Germany can expect to pay.
"Will Greece become a bottomless pit for German taxpayers?" the paper asks.
Insane. Its one thing to be saving our internal crooks but just dumping money to these Euro-Banker-Crooks is even better. What's the rate on this "DIP" loan? A) 1% B) 0% C) We take a haircut
Amazing. Little ole Greece has the world by the nuts.
Greece is basically saying "Save us or your house of cards comes crashing down". And BTW, in the end, they will not implement any austerity because they don't need to.
I'd like to thank the Fed Chairman for putting the US in a position to save every irresponsible, insolvent bank and country in the world.
If you really want to lose your breakfast read Simon Johnson this morning over at baselinescenario.com. He's talking about the rest of the world doing a trillion dollar bailout of the whole EU!
For those who dont get the comment about 13th and 14th salary, i believe in Greece a pensioner actually gets 14 monthly payments per year.
Not sure how that works in practice, but I suspect it follows logically from workers taking 61 weeks to do what a German does in 52.
No in Europe, everybody gets a double paycheck on newyear and in June (holiday money)
Not quite correct. Some countries operate a 13 paycheck system, but to my knowledge only in Greece is there a 14th.
Bigest gangbang EVER!
So does that mean we get paid back before or after our repayment by AIG, or GM (again), or Fannie/Freddie, or FDIC?
As for the Greek response, we are still confident a government overthrow is merely months away.
This is exactly how will this all end up. The Greek government will be toppled within few months. The new government will stop all the austerity measures, exit the eurozone and default.
Game Over.
How will this effect the price of Ouzo and olive oil?
In what currency? ;p
There is some small, sweet irony in that the IMF is, technically, the last lending institution which can go bankrupt. Anyway, whose taxes and what's reality. Stretch Grc out long enough and the will to riot dissolves. The beauty of this is that th sam minds who brought the problems are naturally blind to the solutions...so it does turn off..the less blood the better.
C'mon - what's a hundred billion or so among friends?
If you take the position that TPTB are deliberately trying to destroy America, it all seems to make sense.
Where's the outrage? I f you owe the bank $1,000 and you can't pay, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $100,000,000 and you can't pay the bank has a problem.
That is so pre-Bush/Obama...
Today, the taxpayers have the problem!
The printing press is the only way to kick this can down the road. If they don't print their way out of this, "mark-to-myth" will be shown for what it is A Myth .
The only sanity left may be the German voter - let's hope he comes up to bat and whacks the crazy politicians. The Euro has failed as a cross culture experiment - the end may be painful but the end is in sight for this cobbled together grouping of cultures. No Republican can get along with any Democrat - why would we think people of different cultures and languages could make one financial system fit all. Every cent the savers and hard workers have accumulated over their lives will be pissed into the wind as spenders have decided they need to destroy everything even if it takes 3 more years.
+1
"Americans are getting the short end of the stick, and nobody in this country knows or cares about it."
Tyler, I'm sure glad you don't tire of screaming this to the heavens, but I sure have.
It's over. Whatever 1984'esque mental pogrom was begun who knows how many years ago has been successful on the large majority of US citizens. The populace at large has bought into ignorance is bliss, or rather distraction is bliss.
I just don't care anymore. We either slide into Orwellian tyranny, or by some miracle the truth breaks out and we enter a new dark age. There is nothing anyone can do to stop it. Ok, clarification, there is nothing that a collective majority will do to stop it.
We're done for, people don't even care they're being robbed blind. It's just sick. All I'm left hoping for is the utter Biblical destruction of this modern day Babylon. You could call me jaded, or realistic, and you'd be right.
"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here." - The Divine Comedy, Dante
Well said.
It's financial fatigue, Crab Cake. Those who follow the news and current (pertinent) events get worn out over time. I've tried sending soft-ball information to those I know but there is no interest. It's not important until the 2X4 hits them directly in the head. The key to avoiding the fatigue is to remember that our primary allegiance is to those closest to us. A sense of family and community, if you will. Getting all codependent and saving the world won't work in this environment. All sorts of blame can be laid at the feet of numerous guilty parties, but it's not helpful. A sense of personal isolationism (not cave-dwelling paranoia) is a useful exercise. Just my view of maintaining sanity.
Rocky, you have summed it up eloquently and succinctly.
Maybe so, but I don't like to have to write that. It makes me face reality as well, and that is just as painful for me as it is to anyone else. I would not want to create the impression that I have it all together -- I don't. The progress of information assimilation will approach a jump-the-shark moment when the majority of folks start to capitulate. I think it's coming soon.
not to worry, we've all bailed out *our* part of the titanic...
It'll be the suction of the sinking ship that could pull us down with it -- just us little, innocent, self-sufficient bystanders.
I'm exactly in the same mental state Crab cake. Don't know what I would do without the farm and associated skills... I haven't made the transition yet (other family members working the farm) though, my wife is 100% city girl. I will probably end up leaving her in the city....need to make a decision soon.
The printing press is the only way to kick this can down the road. If they don't print their way out of this "mark-to-myth" will be shown for what it is A Myth .
The only sanity left may be the German voter - let's hope he comes up to bat and whacks the crazy politicians. The Euro has failed as a cross culture experiment - the end may be painful but the end is in sight for this cobbled together grouping of cultures. No Republican can get along with any Democrat - why would we think people of different cultures and languages could make one financial system fit all. Every cent the savers and hard workers have accumulated over their lives will be pissed into the wind as spenders have decided they need to destroy everything even if it takes 3 more years.
Has the IMF ever made a soverign loan of this type while accepting a 'junior' position? If not, it would seem as though the definition for moral hazard should be updated to read - Occurs when a party insulated from risk may behave differently than it would behave if it were exposed to any risk whatsoever within the known universe.
Maybe we should prepare a power point for Glen Beck.
Beck would present that right after his story on the Andrew Maguire "accident".
sarcastic? (apologies in advance if not - there are enough 'elites' around here that this bears saying anyway)
folks wonder why someone like Glen is so *successfully* marginalized by the MSM? go ahead, keep carrying their buckets for them.
w/ 75% accuracy, folks snicker at his 25% sensational hyperbole? and ignore the 75% that might be worth hearing!
or do they even really listen to *him*, vs the out-of-context cherry-picked tidbits whoopie goldberg vomits at them while they watch the 'view'? probably as much as they listen to us when we say "things still aren't right - in fact, they're still really wrong."..."yah, yah, yah, pass the ketchup"
GB promotes non-violence as a baseline, he promotes preparedness, he promotes goodness/godness as the place to start to fix this mess, he promotes fiscal responsibility, he promotes courage. and i really believe he hopes he's wrong.
and folks just *love* to write him off as some sort of loon. i have urge to scream "forget the messenger and listen to the message" but most have already "decided the message" and are just looking for an Obama-like figure who will say it. music to their ears. all is good again... the good news is that while nobody watches GB, his ratings beat out CNN/MSNBC/ABC/CBS combined. "now, i dunno much, but that's some funny sh-t..." (ala "larry the cable guy" - personal hero, etc.)
consider the average busy family who really doesn't want to deal with *any* of this crap... it's *got* to be a GB-like vehicle to keep their attention - can anyone really watch more than 15 minutes of the macniel-leherer (sp?) hour on PBS, after a day of work, chasing/feeding kids, paying taxes/bills, shopping, doing the will, life-insurance, flat-tire, virus on PC, vomiting cat, etc. etc. etc.
then see how CogDis and CrabCake (above) rightly bemoan the complete denial of their seemingly intelligent peers, regardless of the facts presented to them... because the real fact presenters are intentionally shut-down as a matter of course. and any of us who cite those 'loons' can be marginalized without a second thought ("goodness - you listen to limbaugh, beck, levin, hannity, doyle, ... or schulze or miller - pick one, you must be a 'loon' too - now back to 'survivor')...
hell, look at dr. paul. he'd be a much less expensive mistake than the clowns in there now... yet how many of you roll your eyes and discount *me* for even *mentioning* his lunatic name... so, like CD/CC, i've relegated my friendly advice to a few comments about having some extra food in case of a tornado and perhaps some physical gold for the kids someday... outside of that, phuck 'em if they want to watch idol.
we're so friggin doomed...
FWIW, while i value (not worship) GB's presence and wish there were more folks who had the g'nads to take on 'today', i really like Jerry Doyle - radio guy - not-so-shrill and pretty on top of things.
Banksters hold the world to ransom yet again
Is this game getting old?
I wonder when will northern europeans start rioting?
There are Greek people who will take this money and they have to pay this back.
So for them its a bigger pain. why should they take this debt ?, they will overthrow the government and default.
I can clearly feel that FED and the agents like GS JPM MS BA City and hedge funds all distributed paper money to the whole world, not backing by gold, created by Gods press then getting interest on this, free income.
Now the Greeks are waking up and protesting, if they default then all the cards fill fall like dominoes. That's the only reason IMF aka FED wants to support and bail out Any country in Europe at any cost. it doesn't matter its 100 billion or 2 trillion Dollars.
It doesn't matter its Greece or Spain or Portugal, they will bail out anybody, if they don't their game will be over.
WTF!
Eloquently put, Mr. XMan. Would that I could get the same response from a few folks with whom I have discussed the current state of world financial affairs. Just a simple, "WTF!", would make my day.
It makes sense for bailout loans to be Junior to existing claims. There would hardly be any point otherwise. If the bailout loans were Senior then why would the existing bondholders stay? They will all want to leave - making the problem worse rather than better.
The govt loans to AIG etc were also Junior to existing claims for this reason. I dont like bailouts either - but if you must do a bailout you have to be junior to everyone else.
Interesting line of thinking, prime.
I guess my initial response would be that these loans actually represent "loans" and not "bailout loans", as you directly imply. The mere fact the IMF/EU would accept these as junior to existing claims make it bailout money... why even call it a loan?
Spain, Portugal, and Italy must be watching all this and thinking... "if Greece can get away with this, we can live like drunken sailors on unlimited credit". All they would need to do is threaten the Euro banks with the prospect of default, and the next question from the EU will be "how much more money do you need to stay afloat"?
why would this man care about the american taxpayer? and why has he not been impeached? american brains have been placed on sleep mode until???
http://thedailybell.com/1002/Jack-Speer-Williams-Is-Obama-A-Congenital-Liar-Sadistic-Torturer.html
Who is J. Speer Williams? A Google search turns up some pretty biased articles: http://tinyurl.com/267tmp5
I find the article a bit over the top, but I do read The Daily Bell often. There was one interesting comment that deserves my attention:
Please note: I do not subscribe to any of Mr. Speer's views -- yet. It's too soon to jump on his bandwagon.
"It's too soon to jump on his bandwagon."
heh, ironically, as a former stock chaser (read "losing investor"), i just had that same feeling of watching a stock move along, and getting on-board right before it rolls over...
will getting on these ideological bandwagons be the same thing? and if we don't get on soon, will it be too late?
i think we're looking at a heap-o-trouble in this world, and i feel very alone. hell, i wouldn't listen to me either, if i had a choice.
risk/reward/timing... they don't teach these things in high-school.
Ha. Good post. Just remember that they don't teach much of anything worthwhile in school any more. ...any school.
The Greek crisis is another "opportunity" for the continued stealth bailout of US banks by US taxpayers/savers. Consider how the money would flow: EU/IMF contributing governments redeem Greek bonds from their own domestic banks. This is done on behalf of Greece - which is "meeting its obligations". The money stays domestically in each country.
Where Greece actually needs more money for its ongoing monthly deficits - there might be a small pool available - but the bulk of it would have to be funded via spending cuts and tax rises in Greece. Problem is that even this is too onerous for Greece. If they can't even axe 13th and 14th monthly salaries - then they are definitely not serious about their problems.
This is madness as just around the corner a queue of PIIGs is forming, for more of the same.
I have been saying this since Bear Stearns. If you owe the bank $1,000 and can't pay, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $200 billion, not only does the bank have a problem but the whole world has a problem.
Greece holds all the cards, soon Portugal will hold all the cards, then Spain will hold all the cards, etc. It's over guys. And to whoever wrote this, off course the loan is junior, how else would it work.
"There is no out, there is only in"
I just gave my neighbor $10,000 a couple of weeks ago so he could pay off his car loan. I told him that he could pay me back when ever he wants and I believe that he will. He's a really good guy.
Strangely, my neighbor just went on a 1-week trip with his wife to Las Vegas. I hope they have a good time.
Anyway, I need to get back to work over at the IMF...my team is working on a bailout package for Greece.
They should be preparing the one for Portugal, Spain, Italy, France, Ireland, etc etc.
And the states willl be coming fairly quickly now.
For the past 6 months, the Irish goverment is probably concluding "we've really done this all wrong, haven't we?"
Sometimes in order to maintain survival, you not only have to think like a crook-- you have to act like one as well. This appears to be something the Greek government has understood for a very long time.
The system is one big crook. If I were Greece I would tell them I will cut just to keep the game going, tell them to pay me, once I have the money I would blow right through it to please the people, then tell the Euro Zone when are you going to send some more.
It's game over.
It could have been worse: your neighbor could have gone to Vegas with YOUR wife. Luckily, like you said, he's a really good guy.
You forgot to mention the part where your neighbor's car loan was really his home loan and having it foreclosed on him would mean a far greater hit to your finances than not helping him out. Then you toss in the point that if you don't do that for him then everyone else in the neighborhood starts getting into trouble paying off their mortgages. Then you would be dealing with foreclosures all around the community. After that you can sit on the strange fact that you own all the homes that your neighbors live in. Then after that you have to come to terms with the fact that you are paying off their mortgages by taking out second mortgages on the homes you own, which happen to be the homes they live in.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's pretty clear this whole damned thing is just destined to succeed.
Brb rolling my eyes back until the cords snap.
When Morality infiltrates finance the pin has been pulled. Entitlements are pushed down to all and increased in size. The equilibrium is established not by taking away from those who have too much but by giving more to those who have little.
Take it from me, saw it first hand in Sweden. Also saw how it ended, kind of.
Dear Tyler,
It has to be clear that the present Ponzi game is going on:
- Nobody expects that debts will be ever paid off or on
- All major Western governments intend to save, preserve, and keep the present Ponzi game going regardless of consequences since any meaningful change to the present economic/financial paradigm will lead to major domestic and international political & economic changes and instabilities
- The political & economic changes are inevitable regardless of what anybody say or do. There is no way back.
FIAT CURRENCY!!!!!!!!!!!
How can any of these institutions go bankrupt?!! Cannot the USA and its floating regime simply prop up these institutions and nation-states ad infinitum? Does it really matter if U.S. public debt is at 10 Trillion, or 100 Trillion, or 100 Quadrillion Quatloos...I mean, dollars?!!! As long as the American citizen continues to remit taxes---thus implying a worth to the dollar---than the dollar can theoretically be used to keep Bernie propped up not only all weekend, but for years and decades to come. And it seems to me that once the American taxpayers says "phuque ewe!" to the American government and refuses to pay any taxes, than, operationally speaking, zeros and ones can be added to reserve accounts at the FED for every nation and institution that the US Government deems it necessary to 'save.'
UNTIL, not "once"
ONCE the taxpayer flips Uncle Sam the bird, then all bets are off and the irredeemable dollar is toilet fodder.
Well, the failure to remit taxes is one method of losing full faith. Another is simply not working anymore because it's pointless. No work = no taxes. You don't have to go Chumbawumba against the IRS, you can just quit your job, collect food stamps, dumpster dive, steal and scrape, and not pay your mortgage. Not that it's appealing, but it is another way to show loss of "full faith", and is equally damaging to TPTB.
Pay off your revolving debt, refinace your mortgage with a credit union, move all your accounts away from the oligarchic bank cartel, then pray and work for real political change.
You can bet you life on it.
@ CC
My point is that, purely operationally, the U.S. Government can add trillions of dollars to the reserve accounts of such institutions as the IMF and sovereign states, etc. without so much as a blink. It's just a matter of typing a few keystrokes on the computer. But those digital entries that we call dollars only have value if AMERICAN TAXPAYERS believe that they NEED those dollars in order to pay taxes to the government. The dollar's sole value as a fiat currency is based upon the citizen's belief that they NEED those dollars to pay their tax bills.
Regardless of our government's profligacy, that belief remains wholly intact.
<How can any of these institutions go bankrupt?!! Cannot the USA and its floating regime simply prop up these institutions and nation-states ad infinitum? Does it really matter if U.S. public debt is at 10 Trillion, or 100 Trillion, or 100 Quadrillion Quatloos...>
There are two major problems:
1. At some point, too much money will chase too few supplies leading to runaway inflation (regardless of what government statistical numbers say).
2. The "moral hazard", i.e., why bother to work hard or even work at all if there is no need for it since a welfare state provides an adequate support. (this is exactly what let to collapse of the Soviet Union). At this point, a society desintegrates fast (we are very near this point. greeks are already there.)
Up Next:
I guess the banks will round up children to become sex slaves to the bankers. JPM gets the little boys. GS gets the little girls. the IMF, government regulators, and central bankers get them all until they are 12 years old - for education purposes.
That still won't be 'paid in full' So, they could send a bill for the remaining difference to their parents. and when they can't pay, turn the IRS loose on them - to appropriate any remaining private property and turn them into brothels - to put the kids to work at an hourly rate.
They can then tax the labor of the children just above what they're able to produce - to insure that none can ever escape.
Once you see the world from the POV of the $IMFS - the future is clear and all the problems magically go away ...
You think you are being funny, but the banksters already get the little boys and girls until they are 17 or 18 (k-12). They own the government, thus the education system, you know.
Can you please back this up?
All loans are created out of thin air so how will taxpayers be affected?
The loans and thus money are created out of thin air. Once the population loses faith in that magic, the ponzi collapses. The taxpayers are left with whatever tangible assets they have.
Little green pieces of paper or electronic ledger entries are not very good tangible assets.
It seems lot of mony lost fm those betting on greece default and now pissing nails.
mtime in greek isl weather bit windy and hot and trays with greek salads octapus and ouzo coming and going.
what a life.
forgot olives too.
What's interesting is that any US state or European country that gets ahead of the underlying reality could gain a serious competitive advantage...eventually. The fact is, the whole developed world bought economic activity forward, mainly based on completely bizarre interest rate policy, for almost a generation. Now activity will have to contract for about that long. I figure 30% less economic activity for about 20 years should pay the tab (note: Cassandra Does Tokyo first coined the term 'The Tab' to describe this economic situation).
But, no guts no glory. Who has the leadership needed to even describe national or state budgets that are rolled back to say 1980 levels? Hint: just cut according to total political contributions for each area over the past 30 years....defense, education, insurance subsidies, tax subsidies etc....easy formula with major dividends in terms of the dynamics of political economy.
If we simply cannot do this, due to greed and fear, then the game will end. Then we get the real bad stuff: 50% + economic contraction with severe long-term damage to the human potential of billions of people.
Oh well. There is a chance that the good people of Europe will do the right thing and end more debt-on-debt violence as prescribed by the sociopathic, delusional elites. Iceland already has (hey how come they have totally disappeared--inconvenient storyline there eh?) and Greek, German and UK voters look ready to deal some damage.
I'd say the French, Swiss, Austrian and some German banks had just better get ready to close up and stash their stolen gold in various lake bottoms and warehouse subbasements around the Continent. But that would be too optimistic.
THE IMF HAS NO RIGHT TO SUBORDINATE US DEBT IN THIS FASHION. Each $1 billion is roughly $10 per US household, unevenly hitting the middle class, say $100 each. So, that's another $2000-3000 put on our kids. To keep European banks from taking a haircut they richly deserve?
Fuck this shit. Eurovoters, to the barricades!
The Greek "crisis" is simply an excuse to print more US bucks to reinflate the system.
"loans" to sovereign entities are easier to spin than outright money creation, as the newly created bucks are supposedly backed by Greek GDP. Look for more of the same until a new "crisis" can be found as an excuse to inflate.
I am TrulyStupid
Bottom line -
an economy that is burdened by high taxes, high rents, high debt servitude, and high expectations ...
can never compete with an economy in which expectations are low, people are young and hungry, and willing to work for $1 / day.
water will seek equilibrium. that means asset prices in the "West" must collapse - either by asset deflation or currency deflation - probably both.
end of the world if we don't yeah right
lets see how many countriess have deafulted in history?
are we still here?
Maybe we should all go to Greece, walk into restaurants, eat well and in the end instead of paying we just say: "Put it on the tab, puto!" Can we at least get 7 billion in Greek travel vouchers? Maybe the Germans can drive their TDI engines with olive oil instead of biodiesel. Can you imagine how nice it would be? You're sitting behing a TDI Audi and suddently you smell salad...
all it would take then for this syetm to collapse is for us all to buy gold and then refuse to use their bits of paper
and refuse to pay any tax
maybe the greeks should start posting some of their cool old stuff as collateral. IA marble column. An ampitheatre. Whatever. If they got really pushed they could start selling lunches with Zeuss.
How anybody thinks we could ever get to a one world currency is insane. Seriously. This little Greek situation illuminates the many issues very well.
reality
agreed we can only to get to a one world currency if we all start at ground zero and that I fear is the plan
When will the US media pay attention?
When a Repub is in the White House :)
Kinda like the cartoon at the end of this blog post--
http://barcepundit-english.blogspot.com/2010/04/after-greece-and-portuga...
Donald Trump is a model for Greece and all future Greeces. He owes his "success" to losing money then threatening to make it worse unless his creditors carve out a large sum for him. Greece, is playing a version of this game with a 'free-rider' twist. The twist is that it is, so far, Greece is early and small enough (it seems) to agressively threaten financial armageddon and/or exposure of the ponzi schemes. Given that everyone can't play this game at the same time (or at least appear to be doing this simultaneously, or even fools will catch on), the more brazen ones will benefit while the slow to the draw will not (i.e., assuming they can do it before others catch on and collapse the system before they extract their loot). It is real world game playing among groups that are not equivalently unethical and/or aggressive (or of equal wealth). It can only work for the first free-riders assuming they are small enough relative to the overall pie and don't tip over the applecart.
Regarding the reverse DIP, that really is turning being a creditor on its head. As someone posted, we must just view it not as a DIP loan, but as a bailout that still has the pre-2007 term loan or debt attached to it, when in fact it really is meant to be an opaque taxpayer funded bailout.This will continue until it can not anymore (i.e., when a sufficient number wake up or it physically just hits the wall across the board; probably in the next 1/2 year to two years at this rate).
""...the rank and file are usually much more
primitive than we imagine. Propaganda must
therefore always be essentially simple and repetitious.
The most brilliant propagandist technique will
yield no success unless one fundamental principle
is borne in mind constantly...it must confine itself
to a few points and repeat them over and over."
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it,
people will eventually come to believe it. The
lie can be maintained only for such time as the
State can shield the people from the political,
economic and/or military consequences of the
lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the
State to use all of its powers to repress dissent,
for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie,
and thus by extension, the truth is the
greatest enemy of the State."
Joseph Goebbels quotes (some of them)
I put these two here because not that I like the propaganda minister of the Third Reich, but to show this is whats happening in the US. People are being kept from news and information and even the consequences of the govt. action and/or inaction in regard to the economy. Yea there is unemployment, but the unemployment checks haven't stopped or the food stamps or whatever. The Western banking system is in the same boat of toxic money and debt and it's in their best interest to make sure this game doesn't come apart. This is a stealth bailout for the banks of europe who loaned money to Greece. If Greece defaulted then the bonds that Germany and France and other countries and their banks hold would be worth alot less. Then by the world and economic markets knowing how much debt each bank and country have, they will realise that those banks have 75 billion dollars in junk and ergo they are insolvent. Which then would leave to those banks and countries getting their bonds downgraded and the dominoes start picking up speed in defaulting banks and countries.
The sickest thing about this whole mess is that they could have fixed this problem months ago without the cliff hanger (we still don't know if it's still a go or not). They all waited to the possible last moment and it makes them look they don't know what to do.