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Greeks Scramble To Pull Out €8 Billion From Local Banks As Greece Responds With Money Control Measures
We previously wrote about the possibility of a bank run in Greece following unsubstantiated reports that Greek citizens don't trust the Greek financial system all that much anymore, courtesy of the whole bailout and GDP reporting fraud thing. The rumor was not only just confirmed and also quantified: Dow Jones reports that in the past three months Greeks have moved about €8 billion out of local banks "fearing a possible new tax on bank accounts, increased government scrutiny on assets and a run on the banks if Athens is forced to turn to the International Monetary Fund." This represents over a quarter of the money held by private banks in the country. This also represents about €400 billion in total money leaving the system courtesy of fractional reserve banking and the money multiplier. Yet the worst news for Greeks: money controls are coming.
"There is a lot of uncertainty out there," said a senior private banker at a Greek bank. "We've had a number of customers asking to move funds out of Greece, mostly to Cyprus, Luxembourg and Switzerland."
Clients of private banks also fear that Greece may be unable able to raise the EUR54 billion it needs this year to pay back maturing bonds and will therefore have to turn to the IMF for help.
"Some of our clients are concerned about a run on the banks if the IMF gets involved," said another private banker, this one from a foreign bank. "They believe the situation in Greece will get worse before it gets better. There is also very little clarity from the government about its intentions on new tax measures."
"We estimate that €8 billion has moved out of Greece to accounts abroad since December. It's money from bank accounts, stock sales, property sales and other sources. This is pretty substantial considering that there is only €30 billion under management in private banks here," he added.
All is fine and well if this was all: just your plain vanilla run on the bank. But it's not - the Greek response to this capital outflow: upcoming money controls.
Wealthy individuals may have good reasons to be concerned, however. Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou earlier this month urged Greeks with accounts abroad to repatriate their money and said the capital will be taxed at a 5% rate. He said those who choose to keep their money abroad should declare their deposits and pay a tax of 8% for the first six months.
Thereafter he threatened that Greece will use all laws at its disposal, such as double-taxation agreements, to ask foreign banks for information on Greek account holders.
"For us this is the first step towards taxing all accounts in Greece," said the chief financial officer of a major Greek shipping company. "The line is minimum deposits here and moving all assets abroad,"
And now back to your regularly scheduled program of curling and no mention of the imminent collapse of Greece in the mainstream media whatsoever.
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It's coming to a bank near you! Along with other nastiness, if we acknowlege history to always take its natural course:
Harvinder Sian at RBS disagrees:
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/02/24/157996/a-gr%CE%B5%CE%B5k-bank...
If a bankster's lips are moving...
let it fail
It will all fail...
We all know that it will.
Yet, somehow, "No One Could Have Seen This Coming"...
+100000
Finally. Let it fail. Let it go. Let the Titanic sink.
Uh, didn't something similar happen in Austria in 1931? I don't think it turned out well for anyone on the planet. Maybe my history is messed up? Will google later after work....
Still, my intuition says we might not want to cheer about this. It is exciting though in a morbid kind of way. :)
I typed it all lower case, no punctuation, because I did not mean it as a celebration. More of a small meek cry coming from out of the chaos. Imagine a child living in a dysfuntional family, who, in order to survive, must remember all the lies the family tells and recite them properly, at the right time, to the right people, or she will be called insane or punished. Those of us who know, sometimes, are like the child I describe. I want desperately for the lies to stop. It hurts.
Some people are living high on the hog at the expense of many others. There is no chance to set this right, lying, distorting, propping up, playing kick the can down the road. Capitalism needs failure to work.
The world needs an enema.
let it fail
what is known as a crash/default was once known to ordinary people as jubilee...
This is all for the "common good", of course.
It is just too bad that the Greek Govt and Greek people have very different ideas what the "common good" is.
I wonder if the border gates at Bulgaria are pretty busy right now....
Well this is just crap-tastic. One wonders how the contagion will be held to just Greece once Greek law starts following essets around the world. It wouldn't take much panic to morph "global Greek sovereign asset-grabbing" to "banks handing over deposits to governments" ... and then the lid comes off.
Greece's financial system (and ours, they just started earlier) got busted up by all the rocks up the river. Looks like Greece is going over the falls right now.
No way this contagion stays in the PIIGS. I'm heading over to the bank to take out some more. Been doing that a lot lately. Buying gold and holding FRNs. Guess I'll be doing that a lot more in the days to come.
I read the 2009 book "One Second After" last week. That has finally pushed me to go and buy lead and lead delivery systems ASAP.
Looks like the system is going to fail. Europe, here, probably almost everywhere. Slow train wreck.
I'll be glad to give my daughter my gold when she gets married and has kids. She'll need it more than me.
I want video
Yeah! pics or no respect! LOL
Honestly this is one of the major reasons I buy gold and silver. Lets see them confiscate and tax my gold holdings when its in my possesion. I hate the fact that the government can just steal your money through taxation, inflation, etc. Why bother with a run on the bank, how about a run on government currencies. If they want their shitty paper so bad, let em keep it.
Amen, brother.
And for all you out there who have ever once used the term "barbarous relic", put yourselves in the "nitwit" column...
Well I think that's a little harsh.
I think if you've ever used the term 'barbarous relic' you should admit you're a gullible idiot that got duped by some smilin' midwestern huckster types. You certainly ain't no street smart New Yorker, by any means. You bought snake oil and you drank it and you claimed it helped your arthritis.
You also misunderstood Keyne's Aliester Crowley like sense of inverted humour. An entire lifetime spent perfecting the theory of how to fail bigger better and "boldlier" and you didn't get it. It's all very Nietzsche-esque.
The eternal Cosmic laughter of the LSD trip you failed to take.
Btw, your (those who have ever used the term 'barbarous relic') stock in the Golden Gate bridge went up in value last night.
HEH
-MobBarley
Grand Chapman of the Southern Jurisdiction, Most Honorable
You're the Graham Chapman of the South? I don't know if that's funny or just...too silly.
you got it. by instituting capital controls it only causes more of the behavior they decry. more people will buy something they can hoard that is outside of the system... like gold for example.
?? The u.s. confiscated physical gold before. Do some research??
They sure did. Almost nobody who holds gold today would ever give up their gold. It simply will not and cannot work again. Virtually everyone who holds gold today understands that the federal-reserve and the government of the USSA are criminal organizations. If they want heavy metal, they'll need to settle for lead this time around.
Watch closely. This is how a population (re)acts when it no longer trusts it's government and/or it's currency. America's reserve currency doesn't inoculate it from this, only delays it.
wow - considering the situation as i see it (tnx ZH/KD/...) i think i'm actually *ahead* of the wave on this one. The wave of mistrust, that is... and i'm acting accordingly. why wait for everyone i see in traffic each day to catch on before i act on it...
my county: insolvent
my state: insolvent
my country: insolvent
as the ship goes down, all i want is a simple life-jacket, as the big guns will most certainly be killing for the life-boats on deck. don't go where they tell you to go...
Meanwhile, what is the rest of America thinking about? Seriously, what the hell is going on?
http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3306
All fascist/totalitarian regimes understand the critical importance of capturing the children long before they try to subvert the larger population. These techniques, while updated and modernized for the information age, are as old as dirt.
YouTube Search: "Tomorrow Belongs To Me" from Cabaret. Watch the whole thing. I'd link but YT is blocked here.
You might be blocked but not YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNMVMNmrqJE
Greek Bank Run!!!
Toga, Toga, Toga...
MsCreant,
I didn't take you for a party girl. I thought you were the brilliant but stodgy university professor. :>))
Nah, definitely not stodgy!
The price of Souvlakis is going up.
Smart Greeks have held their money in untraceable, untaxable form for thousands of years.
http://www.ancient-art.com/images/ac121.jpg
The contagion is through the euro banks to the countries to all else. A failure of the euro is a massive issue in relation to the $$. The euro cannot fail or we are in a modern day smoot haley with....? Who knows. Beware what you 'hope' for.
The thing about Smoot Hawley is that they put tarrifs on our exports after we did theirs and that hurt us.
We are not exporting so much any more, are we? I know it would hurt us, but it may not have the same kind of effect like it did in GD1.
???
Localization brothers and sisters. Resources, jobs...
Only thing is, not sure if we can figure out who owns what quickly enough to deploy the resources legally. Untangling the derrivatives and all will have the courts tangled for years.
We need a clearing house for this crap.
Can't the EU create a bankruptcy procedure for Greece?
It is a small enough economy to manage as a test case. The loses could be assigned based on whatever might discourage this situation in the future. I'm sure Germany, Greece, and France could agree on which American interests to screw over.
There is something dirty about profits solely derived from bankrupting either individuals or governments. Stealing candy from a baby is not be admired or encouraged. The resolution in the EU should reflect this sentiment.
It is a small enough economy to manage as a test case.
Thats what they thought with Lehman too...
I think there was more to Lehman than apparently most know.
I think it's going to happen WAY too fast to manage it.
Just like Lehman... when Greece falls, there are at least three more right behind it.
At that point 'dfct' becomes a 4-letter word.
Small enough? What in the world has the size of the problem got to do with sound solutions to problems? Like Joe Kernan the other morning lamenting to Ron Paul (Who'd warned of the Fed bailing out Greece indirectly through the possibility of swaps on the books at AIG-FP, etc.) that "The World is Too Big To Fail."
Since when?
"There is something dirty about profits solely derived from bankrupting either individuals or governments."
Sez you. Busting someone out is a time-honored tradition.
/The Mafia
TD rocks!
Uhmm I think I read here last week that the top5 Greek banks have something like €164 billion in deposits? So is it 164 or 32 billion then?
TD indeed rocks so i donated $50.
As for this Greece thing, just wait as it could easily happen within the EU, England and of course the USA. Once currency devaluation/hyperinflation kicks in it moves fast...
Gold gold?
Then what? Oh, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmiJ77u9glg
I cant wait to see BB's memior someday with the quote inside "In order to save the dollar we had to destroy it".
I'm no fan of BB but isn't it premature to say he's destroyed the dollar when it is up compared to last year? Won't every other currency collapse before the dollar anyway as it is the reserve currency of so many nations? Isn't the dollar playing the same role as gold did at the onset of the great depression?
I'm no fan of BB but isn't it premature to say he's destroyed the dollar
This show aint even close to being over yet. Im not a trader or looking at that kind of time frame, which is why I mentioned it as his memoir years down the road and certainly after he is no longer the chairman. Do you really think the dollar will have the same purchasing power in ten years as today? Or that it will be stronger than today? They are doing everything they can to get the dollar to go down so exports go up and they can say 'look at all these manufacturing jobs were creating..." This process will take a decade plus to finish.
Dollar may be up, confidence is down. Without trust it aint nuthen!
Next up: Germany welcomes Greek immigrants bearing Euros.
As cash disappears, the margin calls will spread like wildfire.
wow.....
GOT GOLD?
Actually, Greece does. A pretty fair amount per capita. I think they will be keeping their powder dry.
Sounds like they need a bunch of euros to me. Not hating on gold though.
Well now....
There is some money at GS....
After all....what about the failure to disclose the true
Greek financial position....masked by GS fraud tactics....
Seems like there are more than just a few participants who would have liked to have been informed about the true underlying finances that GS was fraudulantly covering....
ie a $100,000,000 fee was paid to GS....for the ability to mask the true underlying position ?
It's happening folks.
Withdraw all cash from your bank RIGHT THE F**K NOW because I can pretty much guaran-damn-tee that the government WILL place some sort of restriction on withdrawing your money. They already did that with the MMF's and Citibank also issued a notice that they can restrict withdrawals whenever they want. You have to be a total and complete idiot to be having any money in any bank right now. Better yet, convert all that cash into physical Gold because while you might get all your money from the banks at some point but what use it's gonna be if it's WORTHLESS?
Got to have money first. Rest of us are living pay check to pay check. Also, I would recommend individuals start going mum about what they got and where. :)
Paycheck? where?
http://www.businessinsider.com/citigroup-warns-customers-it-may-refuse-to-allow-withdrawals-2010-2
This comment about Citibank restricting withdrawals after April 1 is true. I've heard that other banks have done this as well.
I have an account there (there's a good reason I haven't closed it yet). I went into my branch yesterday and confirmed that this policy applies to my checking account - and all checking accounts in the USA. The woman who I talked to was pretty useless - she didn't know anything about it, but looked up a company-wide memo that confirmed it. Then she had to go talk to her boss to figure out what it meant. Then she came back and told me that it was true, but then tried to give me some snow job, saying that only those people with more than $250k on deposit needed to worry about it.
I'm not quite ready to close the account yet - as I mentioned I have a good reason to keep it - but I sure won't be leaving more than enough to cover a couple weeks' expenses in it!
I'll take "Debt Crisis" for $200, Alex.
A debt crisis wouldn’t be a debt crisis…http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/02/23/156881/a-debt-crisis-wouldnt-...
lol government fucks up - tries to rape people to make up for the fuck up.
"there's a lot of uncertainty out there..."
No there isn't. I am certain that GS and JPM and the rest of the cabal is stealing from us.
I am also convinced that my government works for them, not for me.
No uncertainty.
Greece was a Tax Haven... mostly because you didn't have to report. If the government starts to enforce it's tax code the... rats will desert the ship...
Can the Greeks counterfeit Euros?
Citibank anyone?
http://www.prisonplanet.com/citigroup-warns-customers-it-may-refuse-to-allow-withdrawals.htmlHey Folks
Diversify - a little cash, a little gold, a lot of lead and stock up on grain and non perishable food. Might also look into an alternate fuel supply. I currently live the modern middle income life but I also have several acres of wooded property with some cleared land for growing food. Don't need to raise animals, plenty of deer around here for the time being.
Now, after saying that, I would also advise trying to change the system before the collapse or be prepared to have a plan in place if the collapse occurs. Try looking at Freedom’s Vision; it will give us a future worth having. Go to swarmusa.com.
inflation will come and some will default but you people pretending that you will hunt and farm for food are idiots.
So far i have caught 11 rats and one porcupine. Garden has provided potatoes and more 3 years in a row. All this on a large city lot with a creek in the backyard for free water.
Oregon , the land of rain and the consequent mildew. I love it , but be aware of flesh eating microbes. Only way to live under these horrendous conditions is to drink beer and smoke pot and shoot the occasional stray deer from the bedroom window...BANG
John ? Are you ok? I am so sorry i shot you!
See what i mean. Dont come here!
House speaker Filippos Petsalnikos summoned Germany's ambassador to Athens on Tuesday to complain about German press reports, including the cover of Focus magazine, which shows an ancient Greek statue making a gesture of disrespect under the headline "Cheats in the euro family."
http://www.focus.de/magazin/
"It is dangerous to create misconceptions that Greeks are nothing but thieves, crooks and lazyheads living off German taxpayers' money. This is simply not true," he told state NET radio. "Each people have their dignity and symbols." according to Reuters
http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSTRE61M4R420100223
well, things just got velly interesting
u can pretty much bet where this money went, US dollar, there has been a constant bid since december, yeah yeah yeah, yearly lows, cycle lows, yada yada
that helps, yet, imho, this explains alot, the greeks sure as shyte wouldn't put it in a bank to euro's
don't forget sports fans, with the internet you can move your money from 1 too 20 different banks in 50 different products in a half hour
looks like this time, the contagion is rich people talking during the holidays
I have to side with the gold bugs here. Clearly, the system is unravelling much faster and more violently than bankers or political leaders could have imagined.
HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE VAPORIZING. That' unimaginably deflationary. Financial assets in the West won't survive. The rents and bonds and debt covenants come crashing down - and the "people" are going to blame the bankers and they're going to demand restitution. "Sorry, you got tricked fair and square now buggar off" isn't going to cut it.
I don't see a path forward that doesn't include 80% reductions in asset values - at least in real terms. Gold will not to to the moon in an orgy of hyperinflation - but i think it will hold its own (along with physical USD CASH) as the deflation vortex gathers strength and momentum.
There's no way to stop the collapse at this point. WAY too much momentum, fear, anxiety, mistrust, crime, fraud, angry mobs with pitchforks, well-funded and salivating lawyers etc etc -
I'm wondering if we'll still have running water a year from now - ?
If this was 2006 I'd say we're at the top of the market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP0C-G_iWAg but it's 2010. Then again the market has been churning in the 10K range for what, 4 months?
And of course we'll have running water: streams, rivers; possibly ocean currents if you want to go that far (desalination plants anyone?). It won't all turn into lakes...
It's been that kind of day.
I recall reading some scribd documents here several months ago which purported to show that the Greek banks were some of the best in the world and that they weathered the financial melt-down better than most banks globally. So if the retail Greek banks are actually strong (ie didnt get involved with derivatives, swaps, real estate, consumer loans,etc), then is there a real concern for their viability? Why would there be a run on Greek banks? The banks were shown to be strong. However the Greek government is is broke.
It doesn't matter how strong the banks are if there is any hint that the government might implement capital controls or a tax on capital. If that is a possibility, you run! don't walk to get your money out. If a country has control of its own currency, the easier way to do this (tax on capital) is to devalue the currency, but that doesn't work for Greece since their central banker is German.
Do the banks have any kind of sizeable position in GGB's? That wouldn't be good.
Do the Greek banks hold deposits of people who will have withdrawals restricted by the government? If so, can these Greek banks call in every single loan immediately so as to meet the demand of people reacting, not to the viability of the banks, but to actions by the government?
Even if the banks are stronger financially that a Goldman Sachs partner (the new risk free standard in Bill Sharpe's CAPM), they do not operate in a vacuum.
Crisis Mangement - From a Greek's perspective
-- Most cities are located less than half an hour away from the mountains.
--- EU/IMF want to mess with our freedom, and then with the freedom of all European nations.
--- Countryside/family ties exist for the majority of the Greek population.
-- G3A3 (Greek AK47) in possesion, just in case it is nedeed.
--- Polititians should default on usurius debt. The Sun will come up again.
--Fight like hell if we have to.
One year ago a whole bunch of companies were broke, yet someone bought these junk bonds and the companies are still operating. Now, if junky, money losing, insolvent public traded companies can attract capital even if it cost them 10%, so too can the United States Government! If they can't attract enough cash, we get cuts in medicare, social security and political pork but we don't close our doors and raise chickens in the backyard!
Okay someone has to say it = "It's all Greek to me?"
Approximately eight million Greeks aged between 19 and 85 y.o. Eight billion Euros withdrawn = $1000 per person. Not a full blown bank run, but perhaps a defensive, knee-jerk reaction to prevailing conditions. It is etched into the national consciousness to have distrust for foreigners. The Greeks who are still nationalistic at their core do not trust the EU and IMF. The Hellenistic mindset is an interesting one. The ancient Greeks were not that "classical". The vast majority of the leadership clique were hedonistic, intellectual pederasts. (See Richard Posner's "Sex and Reason".) The greatest Greeks were Solon, Socrates, Archimedes and Plato. Since then things have been pretty thin on the ground.
If they reduced their defence budget and made permanent peace with Turkey over Cyprus and the northern borders their economy would be assisted. But some people just love to fight and hate. They will not build trust for their own good. You can lead a Greek horse to peaceful waters but you can't make him drink.
Adam Neira
Melbourne, Australia
P.S. Melbourne has the largest Greek population of any diaspora city.
so it goes and so it was... this is over blown and posturing by the EU until a package is annoucned. no imf on the turf of the EU.
hey anyone have any info on the debt obligations for the next 12 months for the other PIIGS ? the terminal is to far away
if not lets say a piece on that!
GOLD is now fast becoming the only safe way to keep your own wealth to yourself and NOT to share with bankers, speculators and every shyster plan central government comes up with to plug the hole the reckless banks made. I'm out of the loop and under the radar. Whats mine remains MINE.
What Greece needs is Papasmurf at the helm :)
I dont really understand the conection between government default and a bank run in Greece. The banks in Greece are purported to be financially sound. The Greeks cant devalue the Euro. So the euro maintains whatever value it has. The presumption must be that the Greek government will confiscate bank deposits yet there hasnt been any call for this by the government.
No worries! It look like our Federal Reserve is going to bail them out!
Euro? Gyro!
Thanks vmuch for the post - very interesting observation for sure. Note though that the total stock of deposits (not just AUM of Private Banking) in greek banking sector is roughly EUR250bn and therefore EUR8bn is not that an enormous number quite yet. Non-residents have removed about EUR3bn (out of a total of EUR25bn) offshore so far...This can for sure change very quickly but there is no source for this data. Not premature to think about capital flight by any stretch but a massive,unstable move will likely not be a predictable event. Gd luck
OK, I admit I have too many tabs open in Firefox. But the tab for this story right now reads, "Greeks Scramble to Pull Out."
Now that I think about it, that's about right, isn't it?
yeah but they do it greek style.
zerohedge takes a lump on the chin on this one:
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/02/24/157996/a-gr%ce%b5%ce%b5k-bank...
How about you take a swift kick to the balls, fucktard.
I understood that when I read it then. I knew these things were happening because of a crackdown.
Why should anyone trust this? Because they say so???
These fuckers are afraid that ZH has nailed it and are trying to do damage control. There is nothing in that so called article that convinces me ZH got it wrong. Can't comment on the multiplier issue.
What if they don't play ball? Aren't they rioting, as we write?
Harvinder Sian is a totally disinterested commenter. Love it.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Greeks are paying the price of Greed. While problems persisted in US they were dancing, "no one" really works there, politicians protect themselves and the little guy is going to pay BIG.
Trading the Greek debt: the scandal behind it
http://blog.beyond-trading.com/2010/02/trading-greek-debt-the-scandal-be...
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