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Guest Post: 9/11 – A Fourth Turning Perspective

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Jim Quinn of The Burning Platform

9/11 – A Fourth Turning Perspective

The four turnings comprise a
quaternal social cycle of growth, maturation, entropy, and death (and
rebirth).  In a spring like High, a society fortifies and builds and
converges in an era of promise.  In a summer like Awakening, it dreams
and plays and exults in an era of euphoria.  In an autumnal Unraveling,
it harvests and consumes and diverges in an era of anxiety.  In a
hibernal Crisis, it focuses and struggles and sacrifices in an era of
survival.  When the saeculum is in motion, therefore, no long human
lifetime can go by without a society confronting its deepest spiritual
and worldly needs. - 
The Fourth Turning

File:National Park Service 9-11 Statue of Liberty and WTC fire.jpg  File:Wtc-2004-memorial.jpg

Nine years after the attack on the World Trade Center the mood of the
country has transformed dramatically. I watched the horror on a TV in a
conference room at work with my colleagues. I remember being in a daze
for a few days after the attack. When it became unambiguous that Osama
bin Laden masterminded the attacks and was being protected by the
Taliban in Afghanistan, I wanted justice. The entire world rallied
around the US. There was worldwide support for the United States’ right
to attack Afghanistan and kill the perpetrators.

In the days immediately following the attacks, there were many
memorials and vigils around the world. In addition, pictures were placed
all over Ground Zero. A witness described being unable to “get away
from faces of innocent victims who were killed. Their pictures are
everywhere, on phone booths, street lights, walls of subway stations.
Everything reminded me of a huge funeral, people quiet and sad, but also
very nice. Before, New York gave me a cold feeling; now people were
reaching out to help each other.”

There was a feeling of unity in the country for a brief shining
moment. If the year had been 2007, rather than 2001, that unity may have
been sustained. Anyone who had read Strauss & Howe’s 1997 book The Fourth Turning was likely
trying to figure out if the 9/11 attacks were the trigger for the
Fourth Turning. But it was too soon. As Strauss & Howe relate in the
book, a turning can be sudden or subtle:

“The gateway to a new turning can be
obvious and dramatic (like the 1929 Stock Crash) or subtle and gradual
(like 1984’s Morning in America).  It usually occurs two to five years
after a new generation of children starts being born.  The tight link
between turning gateways and generational boundaries enables each
archetype to fill an entire phase-of-life just as the mood of an old
turning grows stale and feels ripe for replacement with something new.”

Unraveling Culture

The Unraveling, which had begun in 1984, had not run its course by
September 11, 2001. Turnings generally last for 20 to 25 years. In 2001,
we were only 17 years into the Unraveling. The mood of the country had
not developed to the point where a consensus could be built to address a
national Crisis. We had been attacked, but our very existence as a
nation had not been threatened. The 9/11 attacks heightened the feeling
of anxiety in the country and put us on the path towards a great Crisis.
Strauss & Howe explained the phases of an Unraveling in the

“An UNRAVELING begins as a
society-wide embrace of the liberating cultural forces set loose by the
Awakening.  People have had their fill of spiritual rebirth, moral
protest, and lifestyle experimentation.  Content with what they have
become individually, they vigorously assert an ethos of pragmatism,
self-reliance, laissez faire, and national (or sectional or ethnic)

While personal satisfaction is high,
public trust ebbs amid a fragmenting culture, harsh debates over values,
and weakening civic habits.  The sense of guilt (which rewards
principle and individuality) reaches its zenith.  As moral debates brew,
the big public arguments are over ends, not means.  Decisive public
action becomes very difficult, as community problems are deferred.  Wars
are fought with moral fervor but without consensus or follow-through.

Eventually, cynical alienation
hardens into a brooding pessimism. During a High, obliging individuals
serve a purposeful society, and even bad people get harnessed to
socially constructive tasks; during an Unraveling, an obliging society
serves purposeful individuals, and even good people find it hard to
connect with their community.  The approaching specter of public
disaster ultimately elicits a mix of paralysis and apathy that would
have been unthinkable half a saeculum earlier.  People can now feel, but
collectively can no longer do.” - 
The Fourth Turning

The Clinton years were divisive and cynical. You knew the country was
adrift, but no one could harness the power of the realm to take on
the impending challenges. The nation divided into Blue states and Red
States. The Moral Majority raged against the Godlessness of the country.
The 2000 Presidential election was an example of a country deeply
divided, fragmented and unable to agree on anything. The election was
essentially a draw, and a partisan Supreme Court picked the winner. It
seemed like the country was divided as never before. But, a student of
history would have recognized the same issues, dilemmas and foul mood in
the 1760s, 1850s and 1920s. Strauss and Howe documented the prior
Unravelings in US history:

“The mood of the current Culture Wars
era seems new to nearly every living American but is not new to
history.  Around World War I, America steeped in reform and
fundamentalism amidst a floodtide of crime, alcohol, immigration,
political corruption, and circus trials.  The 1850s likewise simmered
with moral righteousness, shortening tempers, and multiplying
“mavericks.”  It was a decade, says historian David Donald, in which
“the authority of all government in America was at a low point.” 
Entering the 1760s, the colonies felt rejuvenated in spirit but reeled
from violence, mobs, insurrections, and paranoia over the corruption of
official authority.” - 
The Fourth Turning

The country went to war with a moral fervor, which quickly
dissipated. There was no follow through, as bin Laden was allowed to
escape. The appearance of unity in the country was wiped away with the
invasion of Iraq under false pretenses. Americans became more cynical
after 9/11. Instead of addressing the visible financial catastrophe set
in motion by political promises made decades ago, Americans deluded
themselves with visions of faux wealth created by the Federal Reserve
inflating the largest bubble in history. President Bush did not demand
shared sacrifice after 9/11. He instructed the American people to defeat
the terrorists by leasing a Mercedes SUV; buying a 6,000 sq ft
McMansion with 10 rooms, granite countertops, Jacuzzis, and a home
theater, financed with 0% down; and taking your ultimate dream vacation
in the Caribbean paid for with one of your 10 credit cards.

While Americans binged on credit and ignored the disastrous future
that awaited them with the approaching Fourth Turning, a brooding
pessimism began to blanket the country. A national paralysis overtook
the populace regarding vital issues. The popping of the housing bubble
from 2006 through 2008 revealed massive fraud on the part of Wall Street
bankers; corrupt politicians, bought off by corporations, in Washington
DC; inept bungling regulators; millions of morons wanting to be led
astray; and a Federal Reserve that provided the cheap credit to fuel the
mass delusion. The complete meltdown of the financial system in
September 2008 will be viewed as the catalyst for the current Fourth
Turning. The transition from Unraveling to Crisis has transpired.

Crisis Deepening

“A CRISIS arises in response to
sudden threats that previously would have been ignored or deferred, but
which are now perceived as dire.  Great worldly perils boil off the
clutter and complexity of life, leaving behind one simple imperative:
The society must prevail.  This requires a solid public consensus,
aggressive institutions, and personal sacrifice.” - 
The Fourth Turning

The current Crisis is deepening day by day. The ninth anniversary of
9/11 is revealing the dramatic mood change of the country. In the days
following 9/11 there was little anger against the religion of Islam.
President Bush went to a mosque and declared that Islam was a religion
of peace. He said forcefully that anyone who attacked Arab or Muslim
Americans in some kind of twisted attempt at revenge for 9/11 would be
met with the full force of American law. Most  right minded Americans
agreed with President Bush. After 9 years of waging wars against
Muslims, in which victory is unachievable, Americans are weary, agitated
and ready to lash out.

Contrast the reaction of Americans after 9/11 with the recent issue
of converting a Burlington Coat factory store into a Muslim community
center two blocks from Ground Zero. The mainstream media has been full
of vitriol and anger regarding an issue that would have gotten no press
in 2002. There have been protests, counter-protests, accusations and
lies spread across the airwaves. The anti-Muslim feeling in the country
is palpable. A nut-job pastor with a flock of 50 people threatens to
burn the Koran and sets off a firestorm across the globe. The reaction
to this inconsequential knucklehead would have been non-existent in
2002. The mood of the country has clearly changed. The anger building
against the ruling elite on Wall Street and in Washington DC is real.
Average Americans feel betrayed by politicians, bankers and corporate
America. The Tea party movement is a reflection of that anger. The
country certainly hasn’t reached a consensus about which direction the
country needs to move, but we are still in the early stages of the
Fourth Turning. A threat to our very existence will reveal itself in the
near future and generate the consensus necessary to meet the threat.

What is beyond a doubt is that the country is facing extreme peril as
it tries to maneuver its way through an economic Depression, a looming
peak oil crisis, unresolved long-term fiscal obligations, and antagonism
from countries throughout the world. The cycles of history do not
reveal the exact nature of the Crisis ahead, but previous Crisis periods
give us a flavor of what to expect. Based on our previous Crises
periods and knowing which national issues have been ignored for decades,
the likely threats to confront the nation over the next decade include:

  • Continued reduction in the national wealth of Americans as home
    prices drop another 20% and the stock market loses another 30% of its
  • A National Debt approaching $20 trillion within the next 5 years,
    potentially resulting in massive interest expense payments and/or a
    collapse of the USD.
  • When the Central Bank experiment in fiat currency fails within the next 5 years, a hyperinflationary depression is likely. 
  • The demographic headwinds of a rapidly aging population combined
    with the gutting of industrial America by corporate chieftains insures
    that the American economy will be stuck in low gear. The result will be a
    steady decline in the American standard of living.
  • The diminishing supply of cheap, easily accessible oil will
    fundamentally change American society. The entire suburban sprawl
    existence of America, with 260 million automobiles and food trucked from
    1,500 miles to grocery stores will disappear practically overnight.
  • The wrenching changes which will be required to localize, combined
    with the loss of wealth, will likely lead to social chaos, possible
    revolt, and the use of U.S. military forces against citizens of the
    United States. Geographic fragmentation of the country is a distinct
  • The desperate need for oil will provoke wars for precious resources.
    The Middle East is likely to turn into a battlefield. The combatants
    are unknown at this point, but China and Russia are likely to be
    involved. With the proliferation of nuclear weapons, an escalation could
    lead to a catastrophic worldwide conflagration.

Fourth Turnings always sweep away the old order and replace it with a
new order. There is no guarantee that the new order will be better. It
could be far worse. As we honor those who lost their lives on September
11, 2001 we need to brace ourselves for the storm ahead. The clouds are
gathering and the time of great sacrifice is approaching. There are no
guarantees from God that the United States will always prevail. We have
gone far off course this time. I trust we can rise to the challenge.

“History offers no guarantees.
Obviously, things could go horribly wrong – the possibilities ranging
from a nuclear exchange to incurable plagues, from terrorist anarchy to
high-tech dictatorship. We should not assume that Providence will always
exempt our nation from the irreversible tragedies that have overtaken
so many others: not just temporary hardship, but debasement and total
ruin. Losing in the next Fourth Turning could mean something
incomparably worse. It could mean a lasting defeat from which our
national innocence – perhaps even our nation – might never recover.”  - 
The Fourth Turning


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Sun, 09/12/2010 - 17:49 | 577164 russki standart
russki standart's picture

I respect Quinns work, and his insights are interesting and valuable. But he misses the point when pretending that 911 was somehow an external attack, reflecting the Zeitgeist, or spirit of the times. Anyone who has studied the videos, photography and statements of witnesses in detail begins to suspect that 911 was an inside job. How can elements of the US and foreign governments launching a false flag operation against their own citizens be reflective of a 4th turning? Perhaps Quinn can explain this in a subsequent posting.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:57 | 577350 Alexandre Stavisky
Alexandre Stavisky's picture

Time to remember as little ambulatory flesh packages of a short time expiration, (even black boxes of mingled mischief and valour) that men are CREATED beings. Waddling forth on four legs at infancy, two at powerful middle age, then three in decrepitude (with false staffs?).  In evidence of our ignorance of even our own flesh, what man here could name the organs between his neck and knees?  Let alone describe adequately their function, alone and in concert, in maintaining his biologic homeostasis and thence affording some sense of contentment or happiness.

Everyman here is a sole entity reaping a reward from a time unremembered and sowing for a future harvest.  His experience in the short time-frame of mortality is a consequence of past action while the dreams and yearnings for a future happiness make rudder for his exertions through THIS time.  Government and society are the macro-encapsulations of all the combinant strivings of mankind.  If this is a fourth turning, and if this is a hivernous period, and if it is to be troubling and turbulent, that is because the bulk of a population darkly deem it so.

Beyond, there are, though, a combination of connivers who seek to direct the historical events of great nations for their selfish advantage.  They seek to overcome the nobler qualities of the institutions of a nation and to defy the liberty, the endowed rights of men, and the simple peaceable parts of existence.  They deny any power greater than themselves or their fraternity.  They seek to slake the desires of their basest whims by making silent depradation of other human derivatives.   They hijack the organs of society's body.  When once the divine rights of men are denied, when once sacrosanct individual protections of government are sullied, they proceed with the waste and enslavement of their fellows.

Just as most everyman cannot describe nor systemically understand their own internal organs, neither (without great study and long effort) can they understand the organs of heaven and earth that move men and nations, provide for their felicity or downfall, their material and spiritual well-being.  Ignorance of these is the very definition of hell.  Superb conformance and obedience to these is the Shangri-La, the oasis, the alpha and omega, and the sweet complete fulfillment of individual and social mankind.

It can be enjoyed in all epochs of time conditioned upon the uprightness and lawfulness of its acolytes.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:58 | 577449 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

your pretty cute (with false staffs?) and all.

my main organ concern and utter obsession S  K  I  N

most important and largest, organ between neck and knees, did you say.

yep. S K I N

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 21:26 | 577505 israhole
israhole's picture

Israel did 9/11, and Israel-firsters are traitors.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 04:15 | 577932 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

They certainly had agents(which where caught) filming the entire event who obviously knew it was going to happen

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 04:56 | 577947 Clancy
Clancy's picture

Advance knowledge doesn't necessarily mean that they did it.  And if they were actively involved they certainly couldn't have done it all on their own.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 15:21 | 579022 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

hey what kind of reply is this israHOLE?

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 04:54 | 577946 Clancy
Clancy's picture

If it's an inside job then it's a much more serious crisis.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:20 | 577168 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

w h o o p   de  d o o   2 you too.

tyler, i really liked this article. it was beautifully written for a person of my strength of understanding. nice pictures, love the last one. sorta of a good night sweet heart.

 i think a lot of people struggled with New York City getting whacked in the ego.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:24 | 577291 SteveNYC
SteveNYC's picture

I think you deserve less than 9 junks for your candor alone. Whether we "deserved" it or not is a moot point. The point is, this event was painted to the entire country/world as a strike that began the "war on terror". This is bullshit. This was the beginning of absolutely nothing, it was a continuation of events, exchanges, and interaction between the USA and certain groups in the middle east that have been ongoing for some time.

We have to go back decades to find the "root cause" of 9/11, this is no event in isolation of anything, merely a continuation.The seeds had been planted years ago, we have watered those seeds over time with our involvement in the ME militarily and otherwise, taking sides unconditionally, and meddling in the affairs of other countries.

The events continue to this day on both sides......

RIP to those who perished on AND before 9/11, condolences to the families, let's hope the insanity stops during our lifetime.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:17 | 577371 B9K9
B9K9's picture

This was the beginning of absolutely nothing, it was a continuation of events

It's reassuring to see that others also get the big picture. Many cannot accept the fact that peace is merely an interlude between conflict. War is by far & away the most profitable endeavor upon which mankind can embark. Nothing else even comes close in terms of satisfying both core primeval impulses and the imperative to debilitate rivals.

I always enjoy reading the conspiracy theories regarding 9/11. As if we had the ways, means or even the desire to launch a false flag operation. Here's the biggest fallacy: why take a chance about getting caught? The money isn't in the attack, the payoff is in the response.

It doesn't matter which party is in nominal 'control'; it's all about expanding the balance sheet. Again, the world economy works as a function of debt - more growth, more debt. And nothing, I mean nothing quite expands a balance sheet like the demand for war financing.

Bush was patiently waiting, in fact, probably praying for some kind of attack. I can reassure you that right now at the highest levels of government, what they would really, really like would be a major conflict that destroyed a shit-load of fixed infrastructure. (And perhaps some people, um collateral, as well.)

Smedley Butler laid it out for everyone in the 30s.

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

Once you realize that war is the only possible way out of our deflationary depression, just like it was back then, then it would behoove you to make the appropriate preparations.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 21:41 | 577530 hidingfromhelis
hidingfromhelis's picture

A tip of the hat and an un-junk to you B9K9!

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 22:44 | 577600 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

....B9K9----"Once you realize that war is the only possible way out of our deflationary depression"...


......"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.".........


Have we not been at war for the last 15 or so years.? This has not stopped the credit bubble unwind that started with the dotcom bust  ...



" Bush was patiently waiting, in fact, probably praying for some kind of attack. I can reassure you that right now at the highest levels of government, what they would really, really like would be a major conflict that destroyed a shit-load of fixed infrastructure. (And perhaps some people, um collateral, as well.)".....


                                                                   And your contact/master/bullshit- from the skull and bones/alex jones/rense.... told you this crap ...?

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:01 | 577645 taraxias
taraxias's picture

"Here's the biggest fallacy: why take a chance about getting caught?"

Wow, it would be funny if didn't know you are being serious. Does Cheney, you know the "so?" guy,  strike you like the kind of guy that would worry about being caught? How about Ben Bernanke?

"Bush was patiently waiting, in fact, probably praying for some kind of attack."

Why patiently wait for one when you can start one? With impunity if I may add.

"Once you realize that war is the only possible way out of our deflationary depression"

Really, the only way? Stop posting nonsense, wars have bankrupted this great nation, now we're going to go nuclear to stop the deflationary depression. Pleeeeease!!!!!!!!

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:09 | 577659 AmericaRacket
AmericaRacket's picture

There was no risk of getting caught.  The bandits who perpetrated the false flag own the enforcement apparatus and the media, plus they have the advantage of relying upon  bogus story that the masses WANT to believe.  No one WANTS to believe that people in their own government would commit such an atrocity.

The objection that "they would not risk getting caught" is extremely weak when you consider  the power and arrogance of TPTB.  Now consider the objection that buildings have been engulfed in much longer and hotter fires without collapsing, INCLUDING the WTC, yet the WTC didn't just collapse, it did so at free-fall, into its own footprint, in perfect symmetry, and was utterly pulverized.  Consider the insider trading at Brown and Root that was never investigated, the collapse of WTC 7 that WAS NOT HIT by a plane.  (The first case in history of a plane collapsing spontaneously in perfect symmetry), and the lack of ANY official story of what happened at WTC7.  Consider that the Patriot Act was written BEFORE 9-11, that the attack plans for Afghanistan were drawn BEFORE 9-11.  Consider the War Games and the pre-emptive arrival of the FEMA response team.  Consider that the people in the CIA MOST responsible for sitting on evidence of bin Ladin's plans were PROMOTED.

This is why people who know the facts have less and less patience with the government line-swallowers.  There is a MOUNTAIN of proof that the 9-11 attacks were undertaken by a cabal inside the US gov.  LOOK at it before casting judgment.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 00:35 | 577792 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Great post AmericanRacket. 

The bandits who perpetrated the false flag own the enforcement apparatus and the media ...

To anyone with a heart beat, this is depressingly clear.

Bldg.7 not hit by a plane and falling in it's foorprint is all someone with a working mind needs to know about the event to realise it was an inside job.

The article is just a not so subtle appology for the perps.

* minus 9 plus ___ = 4; Ans. is 13

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 06:12 | 577976 breezer1
breezer1's picture

read somewhere that building 7 was where all the files on enron were being stored awaiting doj investigation. also twin towers were slated for demolition but the asbestos made it a money losing proposition. the owner heavily insured them against terrorist attack a couple of months before 9/11.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 04:14 | 577930 The Rock
The Rock's picture


Mon, 09/13/2010 - 00:29 | 577784 stev3e
stev3e's picture

They could care less if they get caught.  They got caught lying about WMD in Iraq and just laughed it off 100,000 deaths later.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 04:57 | 577948 Clancy
Clancy's picture

And then came the day that the powers that be realized they don't have to wage a war to rob the American people blind.  They can just take whatever they want without offering any excuse or justification.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 07:23 | 578007 tamboo
tamboo's picture

read 'war is a racket' here along with other great books:

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:31 | 577397 MileMarker17
MileMarker17's picture

Hopefully, the plethora of "junk" flaggers will be among the first victims when TSHTF.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:33 | 577402 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

damn i was sooooo into mile markers, funny you show up.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:40 | 577415 MileMarker17
MileMarker17's picture

You mean you're not "still" into mile markers?  What happened?

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:52 | 577436 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

i am not into counting K's anymore, if you know what i mean.


Mon, 09/13/2010 - 15:38 | 577432 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

ps i EDIT a lot. took out my candor part. but maybe say it again. up to 21 junks now but who is counting.

i thought we deserved it. wake your ass up dumb down americanos.

ME, definitely included.

i was lying in my bed (MST) watching fat fuck mark haines, sayin it was a small private plane. jeeze and he was in close proximity, CNBC set and all.

coming from someone that ate up all the Y2K fear and scare tactics. i also think that was plain and simple fear driven. they pumped beaucoup bucks and fear into the people, over switching into another century. hey, your computer may not work, but apple/mac's will. no shit sherlock. this is how apple was going to take over this sorry ass world. they reprogrammed the OS, to reset. brilliant, you get to go to the head of the class, and get an apple to boot.

you can't handle 2000, bitchez.

people were fumbling over the correct pronunciation of the 21st century. say two thousand or twenty twenty. hell, we should of celebrated. how often do humans get to celebrate a brand new century. especially a 21st century  M A N.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:37 | 577229 RecoveringDebtJunkie
RecoveringDebtJunkie's picture

The four turnings represent the fractal adaptive cycle of complex systems - growth, conservation, release and re-organization.

We have reached the limits of our complex global economy (in terms of finance and fossil fuels) and are now entering the release phase -

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 00:39 | 577795 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

Based on this article, the 4 - turnings is a fairy-tale to help you sleep nights.

You can go back to sleep now.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:03 | 577341 QuantumCat
QuantumCat's picture

The work of Strauss and Howe, Nassim Taleb, Socionomics (Elliott wave), Kondratieff, and other cyclical and fractal oriented analyses are all converging from different starting points.  This is the age of contrarianism because conventional wisdom is being turned on its head... not for the first time in history, but for the first time in OUR human experience (Strauss and Howe).  No history book can properly relate how we should act... our responses will be endogenous within the collective.  We must live and be actors in it, and by the very definition of success (which is limited to the few), most of us will be completely wrong.  To understand the Saecular cycle and what is transpiring, one must understand that endogenous social mood (Socionomics) is transforming in a society dwindling in proportional representation by those who experienced the Great Depression and WWII.  Additionally, nature has a tendency for alternation (Socionomics, Elliott wave).  This will ensure that a thorough understanding of history will be a poor predictor of exactly what will transpire(Taleb's Swans) knowing only that challenges will be faced and resolved in some fashion.  The degree of challenge and ultimate resolution (success or failure depending on your particular disposition and objectives for society) will likely be quite large (Socionomics, Elliott wave).  History will rhyme (Kondratieff), but it will not repeat(Taleb). 

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 22:52 | 577634 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

You forgot Harry Dent, admittedly more memorable as Two-Face...

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 05:07 | 577951 Clancy
Clancy's picture

Taleb is a pop-culture version of Jacques Ellul, and Strauss and Howe are a simple man's Oswald Spengler.

Read Ellul's The Technological Society, it gives a comprehensive theory for why people are fooled by randomness.  It should be mandatory reading for everyone who posts on this board.


Mon, 09/13/2010 - 06:57 | 577993 fat tony slim
fat tony slim's picture

also: history jumps, it does not crawl

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 17:35 | 577146 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Embrace entropy before it embraces you.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:48 | 577243 Marley
Marley's picture

Didn't you get the memo?  Entropy no longer exists. 

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:25 | 577294 SteveNYC
SteveNYC's picture

Bernanke QE'd entropy? Wow, best central banker of all time.....

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:35 | 577407 Thomas
Thomas's picture

Entropy is always around. It is the lack of enthalpy that makes the entropy seem so immutable. The enthalpy comes in the form of readily available sources of cheap energy (enthalpy). Without it, the world heads to maximum disorder.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 21:41 | 577531 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

how bout the lack of empathy?

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 00:27 | 577782 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture


Mon, 09/13/2010 - 02:04 | 577850 Marley
Marley's picture

Then riddle me this.  Why didn't entropy exist for one day?  How do you violate a physical law, clearly demonstrated throughout the universe, every where we look.  It's why we don't have homogeneous universes, galaxies, or solar systems for that matter.  But yet for one day, failed to rear it's head, not once, twice, three, or possibly four times.  So, didn't you get the memo?  Entropy doesn't exist anymore.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 00:31 | 577786 Dantzler
Dantzler's picture

thermodynamics suffers no fools.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 07:31 | 578013 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

I don't have the energy to embrace entropy.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:29 | 577149 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Put this article into the "M" (MORON) file along with Quinn's other obscene and racist drivel.

The real 9/11 questions remain UNANSWERED,


…”unambiguous that Osama bin Laden masterminded the attacks”… (hahahaha!)

Too Fast

Too Pat

Too Easy

Another Patsy!


Here's a typical, if less obscene, response from Quinn to a polite comment at his lousy blog...

"Administrator says:


It is good that you were able to take time out from the truther sheep fuck convention to develop a sitcom. I hear JFK is on today. You can sit in front of your TV and jerk off to it. Do you have any ideas about detective dads that bring up morons? By the number of thumbs up you received, it appears that the 9/11 truther retards are still onboard. I guess no other sites will have you mongoloids.

The truthers swarmed the site with their bullshit immediately. Anyone who has been on my site for the last two years realizes that if you don’t have facts to back up your argument, I will obliterate you.

I had the facts when Jason Rines pulled the plug on my old site.

I really don’t care who I offend.

Anyone who has been offended can hit the fucking road.

Then all of the truthers I’ve offended today can quit my site. They can discuss gravity, explosives, jet fuel, video clips of the Pentagon, and how to properly fuck a sheep*."

Since you say you were a firefighter, that makes you an intelligent person.

You should really have special insight into the 9/11 towers. You are a bonafide sleuth.

You really have that mystery solved.

Nobody can pull anything over on you. You are too smart to fall for any tricks.

You are a mystery solver. A man with keen analytical skills. —-A fucking inbred, maggot-infested douchebag. You and all of the rest of the duped Truthers eat dog shit."


That's just one of the really intelligent responses from Quinn.

*Quinn's favorite retort

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:01 | 577358 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

Excuse me.

Was that actually a response from Quinn?

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:42 | 577421 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

For this comment the MORON got deleted from his own comment section last night.


Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

"Beyond a shadow of a doubt? Amazing that idiots can post such drivel and then are incapable of putting together one paragraph of their own thoughts. Every 9/11 truther is exactly alike. They are only capable of posting links. Not one has ever made a comprehensive case in their own words. They are incapable of independent thought and must rely on “experts” to support their delusional ramblings."

Trying to reason with a truther is like trying to explain that sex with sheep is wrong. Useless."


If you ever go to and read the comments you should note that Quinn regularly uses aka's ... (usually posts under 'Smokey') when he posts his really obscene and racist shit. 

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 21:12 | 577476 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture


That is one sick puppy.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 00:22 | 577733 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Some feedback I got from Jason Rines, who just happens to be, Jim Quinn's former webmaster until he booted Quinn's sorry ass to the curb.

"I saw your comment on Zero Hedge regarding Jim Quinn. I would advise you as a fellow American to let him continue to hang himself and not waste your own time.

He has his own totalitarian approach that reveals itself over time to the reading audience.

We can't stop each wannabe dictator wrapping himself/herself around the flag of what the United States once stood for.

He will continue to tell those seeking truth that they are a moron.

Whether I am right or you are right, we are at least attempting to get at the truth.

The government still nine years later cannot answer for why our tax dollars were wasted on intelligence and security apparatus into the trillions that do not protect us from what we pay into it when 3,000 American are murdered.

I try and start there while educating other Americans."


Jason Rines GAVE and MAINTAINED Jim Quinn on a beautiful, well run website FOR FREE for over a year till Quinn was stupid enough to bite the hand that was feeding him. 

Tue, 12/21/2010 - 10:08 | 820618 benburnyanki
benburnyanki's picture

Any asshole that say 911 was done by 19 razer totin' towel heads needs to be drawn and quartered for being a traitor as apparently this bloke seems to be their Captain Beef Heart. Sorry but u got any rum matey? Parrot food would be handy too?

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 03:11 | 577815 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Jason Rines just posted this.

"Smokey and Jim are the same people, yes. I mapped both the I.P.'s back to his office at Wharton.

As for having fun, well... TBP is a place where if you want to be abused and argue with someone with only academic experience then go for it.

As for me, I moved on.

3,000 of my countrymen are dead, they were not enemy combatants. Radical Islam was used as usual as the convenient manipulated fools they are. They like blood money and Islam gives these individuals the convenient excuse for murder-for-hire. No different than the 1880's in Russia and the 1930's in Germany. 

I want as close to the truth as we can all get and we are only partially there.

I cannot waste time on the wannabe dictators while my dead countrymen have not received justice.

Justice will be served when I feel the rest of my countrymen are safe and that also is a long ways away. We will probably be old men by the time we feel we know enough truth to say we concluded our own investigation and many of the perpetrators dead of old age, war or both.

So I have little time for Quinn."


So there it is from someone who knows.

Jim Quinn is a FRAUD and a LIAR.

 I have posted on ZH and on...

Jim Quinn is Smokey.

Hide your face in shame Quinn.

You will always have 'sheep' who will still respect you in the morning.


Jim Quinn during one of his frequent Bi-Polar Spells last night posting to himself on

Lifted edits;


  1. Smokey says:

    LLPOH—–There is another blog, Zero Hedge. I think they have about 25k members. Zero Hedge posts guest articles from hundreds of sources on his site. Quinn is one of his favorite guest authors because people love to read and comment on Quinn’s articles. They generate much traffic for ZH. There is an article over there now “9/11—-A Fourth Turning Perspective” of Quinn’s from this site that has over 200 comments so far this weekend. THAT’S where many of the 9/11 loonies came from this weekend. They read the article over there and came over here. I haven’t seen SSS all weekend, although Stuck was on our side this weekend against the loonies. I’m getting ready to crash for tonight, but I’ll be back to start some shit with someone tomorrow. Later.

    Like or Dislike: 0  0

    12th September 2010 at 11:28 pm


Quinn... a guy who posts to himself on his own website.

And he knows the Truth about 9/11 ?!

Pity the fool!


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 17:39 | 577152 russki standart
russki standart's picture

The stupid idiots burning Korans were nothing more than a distraction, designed to draw attention away from the fraudulent Myth of 911, that 19 A-rabs with box cutters somehow defeated the worlds most sophisticated air defence system. As a former Soviet Air Force General once stated, we have studied American air defences for decades, and what happened on 911 was not possible.  Maybe, some day, we will figure out how WTC building  number 7 fell without being hit by a plane. A good place to start is to read the conclusions of Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth.

If you are interested in the 911 Myth, just wait, Internet Tough Guy of the Megaphone crowd, and the neocon trolls will be showing up shortly to earn their pay.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 17:55 | 577170 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

You're obviously full of it by your own words.

19 A-rabs with box cutters somehow defeated the worlds most sophisticated air defence system.

So full of fail... where to start? You are equating pre-9/11 airport security with "air defense system(s)"? You have never heard of El Al, comrade dipsky? They had a few things to teach about airline security. Bring on the Joooo trolls!

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:26 | 577204 russki standart
russki standart's picture

911 as described by the mainstream media is a Myth, one used to launch 2 wars and wast trillions of dollars. As for Jews,  if you mean Israelies, they are not responsible. 911 could have never happened without the co-operation of domestic enemies.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:32 | 577216 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

without the co-operation of domestic enemies.

thats an oxymoron dumb ass.

in case you have never travelled before, there is muslim terrorists reeking havoc across the world. Not just in Ny on 9/11

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:19 | 577286 russki standart
russki standart's picture


Oath taken by US officers.

I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.[1]

Where is the Oxymoron in the phrase, ¨without the co-operation of domestic enemies.


Actually, I have traveled  to over 70 countries and speak (poorly) 3 languages in addition to English. In my view, most muslims are peaceful, and nearly all ill will towards Americans is a direct consequence of  illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.  If we wish to end terrorism, a good place to start is to end our wars of agression against muslims.


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 21:55 | 577554 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Illegal wars ? Im not saying Bush got UN approval, I am just saying Bush got UN approval.

On November 8, 2002, the Security Council passed Resolution 1441 by a unanimous 15-0 vote; Russia, China, France, and Arab countries such as Syria voted in favor, giving Resolution 1441 wider support than even the 1990 Gulf War resolution

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:19 | 577675 ZakuKommander
ZakuKommander's picture

Nope, 1441 did not give Bush approval for any war.  Do some research!  Wiki on 1441, for instance.  Here's what our UN ambassador, Negroponte, said:

T]his resolution contains no "hidden triggers" and no "automaticity" with respect to the use of force. If there is a further Iraqi breach, reported to the Council by UNMOVIC, the IAEA or a Member State, the matter will return to the Council for discussions as required in paragraph 12. The resolution makes clear that any Iraqi failure to comply is unacceptable and that Iraq must be disarmed. And, one way or another, Iraq will be disarmed. If the Security Council fails to act decisively in the event of further Iraqi violations, this resolution does not constrain any Member State from acting to defend itself against the threat posed by Iraq or to enforce relevant United Nations resolutions and protect world peace and security.

Here's what Syria said:

Syria voted in favour of the resolution, having received reassurances from its sponsors, the United States of America and the United Kingdom, and from France and Russia through high-level contacts, that it would not be used as a pretext for striking against Iraq and does not constitute a basis for any automatic strikes against Iraq. The resolution should not be interpreted, through certain paragraphs, as authorizing any State to use force. It reaffirms the central role of the Security Council in addressing all phases of the Iraqi issue.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:06 | 577363 merehuman
merehuman's picture

Pride of NY, the towers fell like any other controlled demolition.

pride of workmanship in quality demolition.

No other way that much steel, encased in asbestos can melt so quickly as to allow the buildings to fall in own footprint.

911 was out and out MURDER and there is no getting around it unless you are a sheep and willingly blind or a bought and sold politician.

BTW the truth is getting exposure as we breathe via the National Press Club


Mon, 09/13/2010 - 06:31 | 577981 breezer1
breezer1's picture

unfortunately , should outrage gain enough momentum where they need to do something it will not be an independent investigation. more likely another attack requiring a shut down of large portions of the internet, for example.  

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:13 | 577370 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

Sorry. Don't understand how "domestic enemies" or their co-operation is oxymoronic.

 "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic”

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:14 | 577191 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

So you believe a couple anarchists on LSD that made a video called "loose change" that said the pentagon shot a missle at itself ?

You also believe that the US has no real enemies ? They need to stage fake attacks to create fake enemies to start fake wars ?

You are a loser

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:30 | 577214 russki standart
russki standart's picture

Insult me all you wish, just explain, for example, how WTC 7 fell without being hit by a plane. As for the Pentagon, General Stubblebine Ret. once stated conclusively that it was not hit by a plane. Keep attacking and insulting, the facts do not change and one day the criminals and traitors responsible for 911 will be held accountable.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:41 | 577235 mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

Thank you Spitzer!

Now would all the 911 conspiracists STF up and move on with their lives.  We'll forgive you if we never have to hear one word about it again.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:37 | 577320 Everyman
Everyman's picture

Amen!  The "Turthers" are total bozos.  There is nothing they have that is "fact'.  Yes I know you have websites, what you do not have or possess is judgement or intelligence.  Mores the pity!

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 05:11 | 577953 Clancy
Clancy's picture

The more insults you lace your post with the more persuasive it is.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:19 | 577380 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

What makes you think anybody needs your forgivness?


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:31 | 577306 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

I'll give you the official story on WTC1/2. Bldg 7 however should have toppled. That it was badly damaged on one side, virtually precludes the notion that it should have fallen into it's own footprint. Just look at the vertical momentum of the collpase. Impossible? No. Highly improbable that this will occur 3x on the same day.

Consider structures in the former Yugoslavia, and the fires, missle, and artillary strikes they suffered during the wars after the USSR collapsed. Even buildings around the world that suffer seismic shocks form earthquakes, then subsequent fires are either still standing, or only partly collapse.

Am I saying that it was an inside job? Not at all. I remain dubous with regard to the official story. Money can buy a lot of secrets.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:52 | 577422 Thomas
Thomas's picture

Indeed, it is one of probabilities. The truthers put the probability of nefarious activity at 100% whereas the detractors put it at 0%. I fall in the middle somewhere (with a value that depends on the day and mood.) Aristotle is said to have claimed that an educated man can entertain an idea without necessarily endorsing it. I will say that some highly educated souls entertain the idea of a seriously inside job. I, for example, know a guy who was a former Fidelity fund manager (two funds actually) who worked in anti-terrorism following 9/11 for 4 years chasing money trails; he was fully convinced by the time he quit that it was an inside job. I am a physical scientist with a PhD and a faculty position at a top-ten research institution that gives me no special qualifications to evaluate these probabilities. The fact that I have doubts about the veracity of the underlying story, however, should give the detractors some pause, even if only for a moment.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:17 | 577672 taraxias
taraxias's picture

@ Spitzer

Do Canadians always get their education on youtube?

I haven't got the faintest idea if 9/11 was an inside job to be honest. But I do know that Building 7 was in free fall. I ought to know, I'm a Civil Engineer.

I thought Canadians were smarter than that, to believe that falling debris brings down a steel structure building EVENLY, the way Building 7 collapsed. I guess not.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 06:51 | 577989 Ethics Gradient
Ethics Gradient's picture

I don't feel I have enough information to have a theory on this. I do have two questions though:

If building 7 was the result of a controlled demolition, why? Weren't 2 towers sufficient to get the pulse racing?

Secondly, does anyone have anyone have any footage of any building similar to tower 7 collapsing for reasons other than controlled demolition?

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 07:37 | 578015 Ethics Gradient
Ethics Gradient's picture

Athough you did make me think. And I will put forward some ill concieved ideas for my entertainment.

Tower 7 was the tallest easily distinguishable tower (from 5000 feet) left after the other 2 went.

As it happened, flight 93 was heading on that course before it crashed. Had it not have crashed, and supposing it was headed in that direction, it would have got to Tower 7 10 minutes or so after the two other towers collapsed.

I admit that initially it was heading towards Washington, but then if it had taken a direct route, there would have been two smoking towers in the way when it got there.

Let's assume that it was done on purpose. How on earth could they have hoped to get away with it? Surely it would have been much easier for them to send in a team of demolition experts to remove a bunch of explosives in front of every TV crew in the world.....

But why then did they leave it 7 hours? It's not as if it would have been a difficult decision to take.....

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:38 | 577227 mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

Gee......a bridge in Pennsylvania fell down with no apparent outside influence, must have been a false flag.  A department store in Seoul fell down apparently all on its own, must be a false flag.

Building 7 was subjected to enormous multiple seismic shocks, hundreds of thousands of tons of debris, and heat, that's why it fell down, unlike the examples above which actually had no seismic shocks, heat or debris impacting them.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:21 | 577287 russki standart
russki standart's picture

 The 1250 architects and engineers of 911 Truth would disagree. Seismic shocks, my ass.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:17 | 577376 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

There's only one problem with that.

You don't believe it.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:26 | 577690 AmericaRacket
AmericaRacket's picture

Seismic Shocks??

You can't be f***ing serious.  Seismic shocks that barely effect several buildings CLOSER to the two WTC buildings, but make the other building in the vicinity that happens to be owned by Larry Silverstein collapse at free-fall speed in perfect symmetry into its own footprint??

Please understand that this is indeed what you just said.  Please understand that it is statements like these that result in a monotonically increasing proportion of the population that understands that 9-11 was done by TPTB, with the help of Osama bin Subcontractor.

I'm tired of the junk wars.  I'm not going to just junk anyone who is wrong on the issue, but seismic shocks do not pulverize one building into dust while leaving all the others perfectly intact.  Unless Larry Silverstein has a habit of buying spontaneously pulverizing buildings.  This "contention" of seismic shock is completely, surrealistically, ludicrously, spectacularly absurd.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:44 | 577239 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

He can't explain anything. He will only try to disparage you without addressing the mind boggling disparities with the so called "official" story of the attacks.

It is far too easy to accept the lies we are fed than to stand up against our zombie populous and use critical thinking as a basis to challenge consensus.

All he has as a defense are insults. Therefore, that is all he will use.

You can be certain his views are losing thousands of of people by the day. We are growing in numbers while they diminish. None who come to our side go back. It is only a matter of time.  They have a commanding position but will lose the war.

"Three things cannot long be hidden, the sun, the moon and the truth" Buddha

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:53 | 577374 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"None who come to our side go back."

Well said, Max!

I was also a believer in the Establishment Party line and bored with the "truth" claims for many years ... until a new business partner said "Don't believe me ... but do me a favour and at least look into it and form your own opinion. Start with building 7."

From that one smoking gun, the rest of the story quickly unravelled.

When I also found that the oligarchs needed to quickly get into Afghanistan to re-plant the opium fields that the Taliban had ripped up, I also understood the motive. They had troops into Afghanistan just 4 weeks after 9/11 (which means they were already set to go on 9/11).

Iraq was 18 months later and was to divert public attention from the extremely profitable ($400Bn/yr!) drug trafficking by the oligarchs out of Afghanistan ... while the US taxpayer foots the bill for their protection!

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:43 | 577419 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

You will never be able to splain nuthin, to these paper pushing collage frat boys who have never built a damn thing  in their lives. Mao, Stalin,Hitler, Gulf of Tonkin, etc... Trust the government and all will end just fine. After all they are looking out for U.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 22:06 | 577570 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

One of the most lucid posts in this string.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:31 | 577217 mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

Totally agree.

This was an extremely difficult and complex attack, false flags, like the Gulf of Tonkin, tend to be simpler.

If you can get to the point where you think some group or organization wanted to stage a false flag (which is debatable), it is too great a leap of reason to think they would have staged it in such a manner.  Even if there was gold to be stolen, documents to be destroyed, people to be killed in the WTC complex (not that I agree necessarily), a false flag attack would have been simpler, would have used truck bombs or maybe a small dirty bomb.

Think of the old adage, the difference between a lie and the truth is that a lie has to make sense.  This operation was way too complex, thousands of people would have to have been involved.  Jesus, look at the Iran Contra situation, there were less than a dozen people involved and how well did they cover that up?

Anyone espousing that 911 was a false flag completely loses any credibility on any topic.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:54 | 577254 SwapThis
SwapThis's picture

I guess that means the the finding of one of the hijackers passport, intact, in the rubble of the towers was just dumb is people who would believe that kind of fact that those who make the decision to go ahead with this sort of plan count on to promote the fairy tale of that day that the MSM is marketing for them.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:01 | 577267 mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

Hey, my passport is really durable, I've left it in the pocket of my pants on wash day and its come out in not bad shape!

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:15 | 577283 mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

Trust me, I'm not a fan of the Bush adminstration.

I'm listening to a book right now called "Big Boy Rules", its by a journalist who spent some time with some private security contractors in Iraq.  Some of these private security contractors have actually killed Iraqi civilians for fun!  Its really disgusting.  And I think, why are there so many private security contractors over there?  Oh, because the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfield, didn't send enough troops.  And who is one of his best buddies?  Cheney.  And what company did Cheney used to run or be on the board of directors.  Haliburton.  And which is one of the companies benifitting the most from all the security contractors?  Haliburton.  So did Rumsfield not send enough troops so that Haliburton could benefit?  Who knows, maybe.

Many muslims around the world hate us!!  Look at the Beruit marine barracks bombing, the Kobar Towers, the USS Cole, the Kenya and Uganda bombings, the London transit bombings, the Spain train station bombings, the Istanbul bombings, the Bali bombings and many more, were these all false flags?  My point is we do have many problems with our government, the economy, foreign wars, terrorism, poverty, disease, the MSM sugar coated media.  Let's work on those.  I say people who want to focus on 911 conspiracies are trying to distract you from the real problems.  It happened.  Get over it.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:46 | 577429 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

Yea, I soaked mine in jet fuel the other day and collapsed a fucking building on top of it. Looks as good as new.


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:28 | 577297 russki standart
russki standart's picture

Start with the facts, such as how WTC 7 fell without being hit by a plane. From there, we can begin to make determinations as to what really happened.

If the so called muslim terrorists really wanted to hurt the great Satan (USA), they would have aimed their jets at 3 mile island. Nothing like hitting a nuclear reactor to create the ultimate dirty bomb. I hope and pray that we never face REAL muslim terrorists in the US.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:37 | 577323 mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

One meter thick hardened concrete would have taken the hits much better than the one inch concrete and steel beams of the WTC.  Plus, maybe they were worried about us retaliating in kind.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 22:07 | 577569 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

WTC7's collapse is impossible to explain with the facts so far "revealed" by the official investigation.  That mystery doesn't prove any contrary theory, but it does prove that the official version is at the least either incomplete or partially inaccurate, and probably both.

Sure, there are many wild-eyed types among the "truthers," but there are also many reasonable people asking legitimate questions.  Anyone who tries to smear those who ask legitimate questions is simply supporting the implausible and blatantly incomplete official line.  From that, one might ask how many of those anti-"truthers" are neocons, closeted or otherwise.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 05:17 | 577955 Clancy
Clancy's picture

Flaming toilet paper and office furniture from the north tower slammed, I say SLAMMED into WTC7 causing it to become unstable.  Also fire.  Also death rays.  It was this combination of slamming and fire and death that fart fart fart.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:29 | 577395 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

"This operation was way too complex, thousands of people would have to have been involved"

Which I must say I find odd.

Because it only took 19 hijackers to pull it off.


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 21:34 | 577519 mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

 1000's to orchestrate a false flag..........

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 05:19 | 577956 Clancy
Clancy's picture

A conspiracy that size would have left clues everywhere.  Therefore--


Oh wait it did leave clues everywhere, nevermind.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:21 | 577158 Hall 9000
Hall 9000's picture



An open letter to  Tyler Durden/Zero Hedge:

As a carbon-based lifeform, where does Obergruppen Fuehrer - Tyler Durden/Zero Hedge stand regarding the racist rants that you allow to be posted on your site, like the one below - one of many. What is your justification? I assume you have testicles, undescended or not. You appear to be smarter than this. What gives? ( You will be marked on the basis of your response or lack of one.)

"by citationneeded 

on Sun, 09/12/2010 - 16:34

"Sorry, that was a misunderstanding then on my part. I have seen too many comments on this site about people who want me dead, even though I am in no way involved in any of the things they despise me for.

I thought you were dismissing my rebuttal as people who have not contributed anything, much like the "jew Hollywood" that gets picked apart. My defense was that if you want to exterminate the Jews again, you will also lose many important good things. Google, founded by two Jews, was an example."

Don't be a pussy, tell us, what is your actual sick-twisted vision, do you wish Lebensraum?

The joke is on us, life imitates art.

Tyler Durden - The Fight Club - 1999

"Tyler's desired utopia is a neo-paleolithic paradise established in the post-apocalyptic ruins of industrial civilization.

"Because of his nature,"[18] Tyler works night jobs where he sabotages companies and harms clients. He also steals left-over drained human fat from liposuction clinics to supplement his income through soap making and create the ingredients for bomb manufacturing, which will be put to work later with his fight club. He is the co-founder of Fight Club, as it was his idea to instigate the fight that led to it. He later launches Project Mayhem, from which he and the members commit various attacks on consumerism.

The twist of the book is that Tyler is actually another personality of the Narrator. The Narrator is unaware of this, believing Tyler is simply another person."


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:23 | 577198 liberal sodomy
liberal sodomy's picture

I thought jews were a religion?

Which is it?  Are "jews" a race or a religion?


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:29 | 577213 Anarchist
Anarchist's picture

There is no monolithic Jewish race as genetic testing has proven. You do have a few Jewish groups who share similar genes. Sephardic Jews share genes with Arab Christians and Muslims. Ashkenazi Jews share some genes with different Turkic groups.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:47 | 577336 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

i just noticed HAL you have a very special bag over your head. illuminiti

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:52 | 577248 Jake Lamotta
Jake Lamotta's picture

Hall9000 stop being a "jew putz", that is not racism or anti-semite comments.  Stop using comments as a crutch and get a fucking life!

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:47 | 577337 Hall 9000
Hall 9000's picture

Sounds like a final solution.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:39 | 577391 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Don't call out Tyler because people choose to exercise the first amendment, this is America no??? You are a tool ...

Get some balls and educate them or keep your mouth shut.

Not saying they are right in any way shape or form but this is the good old USA & this is the fight club 24/7 ...

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:54 | 577742 citationneeded
citationneeded's picture

How is this a racist rant? That was a response to somebody "understanding" Hitler and implicitly hoping for the same thing to happen. I would be one of the dead. Reading this site has scared the shit out of me. I was trying to get info on hedging my secuirty, but I learened that my ethnic marker would complicate that. I learned there are people in my country who want to kill me not because of what I have done (which is nothing) but because of who I am. What I wrote there was not what I beleive, but what I read others say. I am really just trying to understand better - I want to know why some people would want me dead.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 02:12 | 577856 RichardP
RichardP's picture

Because they are bored with video games and it excites them to speak of things they would never do in real life.

If this site scares you, trade it in for flesh and blood friends in the real world.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 02:20 | 577862 citationneeded
citationneeded's picture

Good Point (though I do have flesh and blood friends :) ). Still, this has opened my eyes regarding the hate that is out there. You might very well be right, but I think this guy has a point too:

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 17:48 | 577163 Iuvenalis
Iuvenalis's picture

I've been lurking here for the past several months and would like to give props to everyone here.  We come together as members of a virtual Fight Club, and what we see is disturbing to us all...despite any disagreements we may have.  Regarding the Fourth Turning.  I was first exposed to that book in 1998, in Washington DC, shortly after graduating college with a History degree.  As history has long been something I have a deep interest in, I can honestly say that I cannot find fault with the arguments advanced by Strauss and Howe.  To use a scientific metaphor, I would say they have come up with a unified theory for historical events.  Like it or not, the Fourth Turning is upon us, and the events of the next few years will make or break both the United States and the rest of the world.  To ignore the signs of the turning is to ignore the lessons history has to teach us all. 

Those who disagree are welcome to flame away, note, I am no troll and I work as a Flight Instructor, so I am used to turbulence.  I look forward to debating this topic.


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:04 | 577179 Hall 9000
Hall 9000's picture

luvenalis wrote:

 "...virtual Fight Club, "

Nice metaphor.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:21 | 577197 Village Idiot
Village Idiot's picture



Welcome to the conversation.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:36 | 577222 arby63
arby63's picture

I have to agree Iuvenalis. In any event, Quinn's remarks regarding the Turning have very little to do with "who perpetrated" 9/11; rather, just the fact that it happened and, of course, what followed.

That's how I see it anyway.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:16 | 577673 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Whew!  I thought I was in the fun house at the freak show for a while.  There is a same person here.  Thanks for your comment. 

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 17:52 | 577166 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

Was at a very popular USA destination (in the mid-west) and during sunset and due to yesterday being 9/11 someone wanted everyone to sing God Bless America. Only 10% to 20% of the people did so, yet easily 90%+ were American citizens. This is VERY telling in and of itself.


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 17:57 | 577172 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

No it isn't...

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:14 | 577667 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

It sure is. I have noticed at sports events, memorials for vets at cemeteries, parades, etc there are a boat load of folks that show NO respect when the anthem is played, the colors are walking down the name it. Majority of people don't give a flying f'ck about this country if you base it on the attitude displayed in public.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 17:56 | 577171 mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

I'm sure many of you will be disappointed but I'm not going to address 911 conspiracy theories, just try to expand on some threads in the article.

I have muslim friends and they are educated, peaceful, more so than your average causcasian, but that may speak more to the demographic of where I live, than to the muslim population in general.

I too was dismayed to hear about the book burning, thinking the usual, why?, inflamatory, hateful, pointless etc.  But consider the reaction of the muslim world.  They go crazy.  Over a book.  Same with a cartoon of Mohammend.  They lose it.  Yet a woman can be stoned to death for what we consider a trivial crime - not a word.  Childrens schools are burned and acid is thrown at girls in Afganistan for going to them - not a word.  In many muslim countries TODAY converting to Christianity is a capital offense.  Western values attempt to put one's life and liberty above all else, this is obviously not the case with those who riot over what we consider trivial issues in muslim countries.  Am I saying we are better?  No, just different.  I think moderate muslims here and around the world, who never or rarely seem to speak up when these riots occur had better take control of muslims issues and agendas, sideline the extremists, or we are never going to get along.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:20 | 577381 Milestones
Milestones's picture

Mrgneiss. do you feel the same about the moderate jews-do you think that they should speak out about the extremist Zionist jews who are assulting our society via our financial institutions amoung many other institutions?? I would love to have your and hall 9000 response. Milestones

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:28 | 577692 ZakuKommander
ZakuKommander's picture

Ever consider that most people abroad are asking when moderate Americans are going to sideline our extremists?

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 09:15 | 578136 mrgneiss
mrgneiss's picture

I'll tell you what, I'll stay here and try to reason with our extremists (which I totally agree we have), and you go to some place like the Tribal areas, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Yemen, and try to reason with their extremists.  We'll see who lasts longer.  See the difference??????

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 17:59 | 577175 Dollar Bill Hiccup
Dollar Bill Hiccup's picture

The conclusions are a bit ... hyperbolic ?

Reminds me of a Russian propaganda piece a year or two ago espousing the fall of the US into chaos and armed conflict  ...

Neither good nor bad, like the markets, achieve their ends in such a linear or destined fashion.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:03 | 577178 Jim Billy Bob J...
Jim Billy Bob James IV's picture
My father told how my Grandfather would drag everyone to the dirt cellar (which was little more than a covered hole in the  ground) each spring in Western Oklahoma as the ominous weather clouds rolled in each night.  Night after night my father said they rise up and run to the musty, damp, cold dirt cellar and night after night after the storm had passed they would return sleepy eyed to the farm house only to awaken to required chores two or three hours later.   But one night there a particularly sever storm that laste duntil dawn and when my grandfather opened the door on the cellar he could see in the morning light the house, the barn, the chicken coop, and all the livestock were gone and nothing remained.  My grandfathers first response (in his somewhat limited sixth grade education venacular was: " Now this is the way it is supposed to look when we come out of the cellar!"


We see what is coming and it may seem folly to prepare for it until it happens.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:32 | 577304 Teaser
Teaser's picture

double plus super un-un-good. 

Grandfathers are/were so incredibly wise, and we fail to realize until the are gone.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:57 | 577447 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

A-Men i should have listened to that man more than i did.

"Stay out of those flop houses',those whores won't work as hard for you're money as you did"

Whats youre favorite Grandpa saying?

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:03 | 577649 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

Gramp's response to the first "Moon Landing".

"... You kids... That's just more Hollywood Bull Shit Stories on TeeVee!  Turn that damn idiot box off!"


Mon, 09/13/2010 - 11:31 | 578433 MilleniumJane
MilleniumJane's picture

Love your comment!!!  That brought a smile to my face this morning!


Many of us have family and friends who think we are a little nuts for our beliefs that are not verified by the mainstream media/propoganda machine.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:04 | 577180 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

islam is not a religion of peace - another lie from the mass murderer bush the qu'ran and you will find it to be quite hostile...

on the other hand, waging war in the middle east is a fool's errand. much of the hostility is due to years and years of american imperialistic meddling in arab affairs thanks to the agency of war, the cia.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:15 | 577193 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Islam is an ideology and a religion.

worse then Nazism

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:37 | 577225 Anarchist
Anarchist's picture

Tens of millions of Christians in Eastern Europe were murdered by the Cheka, GPU and NKVD. Ashekenazi Jews led all these orginizations as well as founding the Bolshevik revolution. 

What say you about the unspeakable crimes comitted by Jews against non-Jews.?

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:05 | 577276 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

sorry about that.

I guess I should take into consideration, the feelings of Nazis when i make comments

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:32 | 577309 Teaser
Teaser's picture

Spitzer, if you weren't hiring hookers all day, attacking the wrong people in politics, and you were a woman, I'd beg you to bear my children.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:32 | 577700 ZakuKommander
ZakuKommander's picture

Of course, a compelling analysis has been made that the Bible is far more violent than the Koran.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 05:22 | 577957 Clancy
Clancy's picture

But not quite as bad as Judaism.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:26 | 577203 DiverCity
DiverCity's picture

Qu'ran?  Oh, you mean the Koran.  If Jones is a nut job, viva la nut jobs!!!  We need more of 'em!

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:22 | 577384 Whats that smell
Whats that smell's picture

Tony: Most people don't realize the facts you have stated. I know you are correct on both points, I have been around enough to know Islam wants all non believers dead, so we invaded them because we "don't have to fight them here"  The USA took their bait and are still screwing ourselves.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:05 | 577181 JimboJammer
JimboJammer's picture

It  is  plain  for  me  to  see  ...  the  Pentagon  was  hit  with  a  missle..

there  was  no  tail  section ,  no  engines  ,  laying  on  the  ground

there...  Bush  and  Cheney  must  answer  for  this...

Youtube  >> " charlie  sheen's  video  message  to  president  Obama "

this  is  a  must  see  video..

write  your  senator  to  >>  re-open  the  911  investagation .

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:17 | 577195 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

So what was the big prize for staging 9/11 ?

a war in the middle east that could have been started without the 9/11 attack ?

The 9/11 attack sure didn't convince you.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:53 | 577250 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

Are you really trying to say that we would have still invaded Afghanistan without 9/11, or even Iraq.  I know at least 2 people that thought the Iraqi invasion was because of 9/11 and was justified. Most people are simply clueless about foreign policy and have no desire to put any kind of thought into it.. Fortunately for you, they will listen to any idiot and regurgitate the talking point lies they hear most often expressed..

You have got to be kidding.. You just lost credibility.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:07 | 577278 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 is a United Nations Security Council resolution adopted unanimously by the United Nations Security Council on November 8, 2002, offering Iraq under Saddam Hussein "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" that had been set out in several previous resolutions (Resolution 660, Resolution 661, Resolution 678, Resolution 686, Resolution 687, Resolution 688, Resolution 707, Resolution 715, Resolution 986, and Resolution 1284). [1]

On November 8, 2002, the Security Council passed Resolution 1441 by a unanimous 15-0 vote; Russia, China, France, and Arab countries such as Syria voted in favor, giving Resolution 1441 wider support than even the 1990 Gulf War resolution.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:55 | 577444 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

And yet we ignored their resolution that was against invading Iraq.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:34 | 577703 ZakuKommander
ZakuKommander's picture

Nope, 1441 did not give Bush approval for any war.  Do some research!  Wiki on 1441, for instance.  Here's what our UN ambassador, Negroponte, said:

T]his resolution contains no "hidden triggers" and no "automaticity" with respect to the use of force. If there is a further Iraqi breach, reported to the Council by UNMOVIC, the IAEA or a Member State, the matter will return to the Council for discussions as required in paragraph 12. The resolution makes clear that any Iraqi failure to comply is unacceptable and that Iraq must be disarmed. And, one way or another, Iraq will be disarmed. If the Security Council fails to act decisively in the event of further Iraqi violations, this resolution does not constrain any Member State from acting to defend itself against the threat posed by Iraq or to enforce relevant United Nations resolutions and protect world peace and security.

Here's what Syria said:

Syria voted in favour of the resolution, having received reassurances from its sponsors, the United States of America and the United Kingdom, and from France and Russia through high-level contacts, that it would not be used as a pretext for striking against Iraq and does not constitute a basis for any automatic strikes against Iraq. The resolution should not be interpreted, through certain paragraphs, as authorizing any State to use force. It reaffirms the central role of the Security Council in addressing all phases of the Iraqi issue.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 04:35 | 577941 The Rock
The Rock's picture


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:23 | 577390 merehuman
merehuman's picture

Spitzer, you used to make sense. I had the impression you were smart. Now i see you are blind to reality except the one in your head.

The question should be asked what was hidden/destroyed that saved someone ass. This was a preplanned event. Look at other demolition jobs and you will see that the 911 job was suberbly executed. Hats off to the fellas  who set the thermite and i hope they suffer each day they live.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 20:47 | 577428 Whats that smell
Whats that smell's picture

I don't know what really happened. I suspect it was a combination of incompetance and stupidity. We should not underestimate GW's mind. I certainly remember how hard he pushed not to have a 911 commission.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:37 | 577710 AmericaRacket
AmericaRacket's picture

"The question should be asked what was hidden/destroyed that saved someone ass."

Enron papers were in the World Trade Center.  ENRON was a one-stop shop for the people looting the treasury out of trillions in the late 90s and early 2000s.  I'm not saying that was the sole motive, but these guys like to kill a lot of birds with one stone.

If you want to know when the next false-flag is coming, check out Glen Beck.  When he starts really turning up the juice in his anti-Muslim paranoia, that will be the cue for TPTB.  The public is not as gullible now.  The pump needs to be primed a bit for the next false flag.  No more Hero photo-ops for Rudy Gullianni.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:38 | 577714 taraxias
taraxias's picture

"Spitzer, you used to make sense. I had the impression you were smart. Now i see you are blind to reality except the one in your head."

Totally agree, I thought he was smarter than that based on some of his post on the deflation/inflation/hyperinflation debates.

I learn a new thing every day on this site.

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 04:58 | 577949 The Rock
The Rock's picture


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:20 | 577678 Arraya
Arraya's picture

9/11 was the psychological pretext 

While the full details remain obscure, it is documented beyond any reasonable doubt that the administration was repeatedly warned(by Britain, France, Israel, Jordan, Morocco, Germany, Russia and other countries) that 9/11 was about to happen and at least five FBI investigations were squashed to make sure the attacks were not stopped. It is also very well documented that the administration knew the world was about to reach "Peak Oil" and that soon demand for petroleum would start to outstrip supplies. Cheney's secretive Energy Task Force examined maps of Middle East oil fields in the months before 9/11 and the start of the alleged "War on Terror"

Mon, 09/13/2010 - 05:24 | 577959 Clancy
Clancy's picture

Maybe you did it just to watch 3000 christians burn to death.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:26 | 577201 Hall 9000
Hall 9000's picture


JimboJammer wrote:

 "  tail  section,  no  engines,"

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that noticed. 

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 23:31 | 577697 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Too bad you didn't notice all the lightposts the wings clipped on the way in. What was really clever was how they planted all those eyewitnesses driving on the freaking freeway.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 18:39 | 577231 puckles
puckles's picture

It's interesting to me that you consider Charlie Sheen a great thinker, and/or investigative reporter.  To my knowledge he was not on the ground in any location during 9/11.  People who were on the ground at the Pentagon have a very different story to tell, up to and including seeing pieces of recognizable aircraft and human elements.  No missile.  But there should have been aircraft targeting that plane, and bringing it down well before it hit the Pentagon.  Nobody was scrambled until it was far too late.

I do entirely agree with your requirement that the entire 9/11 business be reinvestigated. Too much does not, and never has, added up.


Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:34 | 577314 Teaser
Teaser's picture

Regardless of what a person thinks about 9/11, anyone who references Charlie Sheen to back up any argument, at anytime, in any place in the space/time vortex, not only gives up all credibility, but also gives up their humanhood.

Sun, 09/12/2010 - 19:58 | 577351 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

no shit sherlock ' S

what a joker, but he sure has america fooled.

hey, when is WS 2/greed movie coming out. i want to go with you guyz.

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