This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Guest Post: The Alternative Market Project Has Been Launched!

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Giordano Bruno of Neithercorp Press

The Alternative Market Project Has Been Launched!

Why choose to participate in a system that doesn’t work? A system
that is designed to drain the people of wealth instead of enriching them
and their lives? A system that is constructed upon irrational
principles, faulty laws, and unstable values? A system on the verge of
collapse?

This is the question that the Alternative Market Movement (AMM) poses
to the American citizen. Why continue living under an economic
structure that is poised to erupt, threatening you, your family, and
your ability to provide a meaningful future for them? Would anyone
voluntarily choose to live under the barrel of a gun their entire lives?

The only plausible answer is that most people participate in our
current destructive financial system because they feel there are no
other options. AMM plans to change this by offering a new choice, one
which presents a solid foundation, an honest and legitimate sense of
community, self sufficiency, and sound trade backed by tangible
commodities instead of unsustainable debts. We will work to help each
and every individual achieve greater independence and to connect with
other like-minded participants in a newer, liberty based market. This
market will be facilitated and administrated by communities themselves,
away from bureaucracy, corporate influence, and overt regulation. It
will serve the interests of the average man and woman, and not the
interests of globalism and elitist hierarchy.

We believe wholeheartedly in the framework of Constitutional Law, and
that no government or supranational entity has the right to overstep
Constitutional boundaries for any reason, regardless of supposed
intentions or mandates. We do not recognize the self proclaimed
authority of corporately created and managed entities such as the
Federal Reserve, the IMF, or the World Bank. We are fully opposed to
the practice of fractional reserve banking, fiat currency, central
banking, and other fraudulent financial Ponzi schemes. We stand against
the forced centralization of countries and cultures and the erasure of
national sovereignty. We believe that the first step in defending
against such economic and political manipulation is to create an
alternative system that safeguards the values of free markets and free
peoples. We are a natural extension of the Liberty Movement which is
already making great headway in American society today.

Our goal is not to centralize authority in this movement, but to
encourage individual awareness, and individual action. We hope to
provide the knowledge and tools necessary to make it possible for
anyone, from the average working American, to the successful private
business owner, to become their own leader, taking actions in their own
neighborhoods and towns with the purpose of forming viable trade
networks, eventually decoupling and shielding themselves from the
diseased economy currently in place.

The root ideology of our mission could be expressed as follows:

Provide for yourself and others those human necessities which the corrupt establishment cannot or will not.

Through this, you make the damaging system unneeded and obsolete.
Eventually, the establishment will have to come after you, openly
exposing its tyrannical nature, or it will have to conform to you. In
either case, you benefit.

To help Americans forward with this strategy of self determinism and
economic independence, we are launching the Alt-Market website. We hope
it will become a useful medium for the expansion of trade networks as
well as a source of in-depth knowledge on numerous practical skills
which are valued in a poor economic environment. Ultimately, we plan to
move our efforts away from the internet and into cities across the
country, where we will hold workshops and conventions designed to give
people hands on training, as well as a forum to meet other like-minded
free market proponents face to face.

Visit us at Alt-Market, and set a higher economic standard for
yourself, your town, your state, and your country. It all begins when
our participation in rigged establishment system ends…

http://www.alt-market.com/

 

- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:05 | 1007143 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Eventually, the establishment will have to come after you, openly exposing its tyrannical nature, or it will have to conform to you. In either case, you benefit.

I'm not entirely sure that when the Establishment comes after me I'll be experiencing it as a benefit.

But thanks for the thought.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:11 | 1007164 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Better to fight a snake in the light than in the darkness.  Once they expose themselves for what they really are through overt violence, public opinion will crystalize against them.  Think about the Boston Massacre, and what that did for the American Revolution.

Certainly, not good for those who died, but many, MANY more will die by the hands of the government if we continue to play their game.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:28 | 1007608 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Very astute. Great writing style!

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:48 | 1007693 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

Exellent comment tmosely..

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:15 | 1007181 the mad hatter
the mad hatter's picture

All you need for an alt market is to establish full-reserve banks to compete with fractional-reserve banks. Full-reserve banks could provide a stable foundation for the economy to be rebuilt on. To be profitable they could charge depositors a storage fee. You wouldn't have to bail out these international banking conglomerates that hold the economy hostage.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:31 | 1007275 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Sounds good, who's going to stop the EE from seizing those assets?.

This is going to end one of two ways, Civil War Deaux, or Lemmingsville.

If the bstds are building /have built internment camps, for those that refuse to become serfs, then its door #1.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:39 | 1008985 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

/yawn. I refuse. Consent of producers is required to pay for these grand schemes of the looters. Problem is...are there any non-looters left?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:55 | 1007398 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Good luck trying to break the Federal Reserve banking monopoly.  Anyone trying to start a "full-reserve" bank will quickly realize why it hasn't been tried before.

However, there's nothing stopping individuals from doing full-reserve banking.  I am a personal full-reserve bank.  I have gold and silver saved away and I use cash for everything.  Everything.

And I'm already part of a personal full-reserve banking network, made up of like-minded individuals.  When it's time, we'll come in and recapitalize society.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:32 | 1007627 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

buy HSBC stock.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:03 | 1007770 CPL
CPL's picture

I'm not sure capitalization would be even needed at that point when it gets to that point.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:26 | 1008533 illyia
illyia's picture

Buy Chumbawamba stock.

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 19:02 | 1009273 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture

Spiritually or philosophically speaking, I think I will.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:02 | 1008752 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Chumba,

Here you say you use cash for everything, everything and then further on down in another post you say you use paypal because it's convenient.

At least stay consistent on the same thread.

You talk a big talk but have little credibility.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:25 | 1008897 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Who died and made you the dispensary of credibility?

Is this the best you've got?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:29 | 1008909 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Just trying to keep a good man honest!  I just see that so many come on here ripping the system decrying revolution but yet participate in it so willingly.

It's like the first time I bought silver from APMEX and then I see they use JPM for all their transactions....

Or someone on here claiming they use only cash and then you find out they use paypal...

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:39 | 1008982 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Um, yeah.  Listen, you shit-eating cockmonkey, if you have something of substance to pick out then please bring it to my attention.  If all you're going to engage in is pissant semantics then I have a boil on my ass I have to lance.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:47 | 1009000 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Then I suggest you go ahead and lance it and stop contradicting yourself in the same thread acting like your Mr. Anti-establishment, when your not, and then maybe you can have a little credibility. Make sure your Mom sterilizes the needle first.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 21:26 | 1009734 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Ok, nigger.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 22:21 | 1009886 oygevalt
oygevalt's picture

Allow me to point out another contradiction in Chumbawamba's sweet nothings.  He claims to have purchased his house in 1997, before the bubble... but to have ended up underwater.  Now, I'm betting there were no medical bills or similar sob stories, or we all would have heard chapter and verse about them.  So, either a) Chumbawamba refi'd for toys, and needs to defend why he's not a willful thief who's doing nothing more than welching on a bad decision; or b) Chumbawamba is a moron.  In any event, he certainly has demonstrated himself incapable of having a debate where there's the slightest chance of him losing without tossing in racial slurs, ethnic insults, and questions to his knowledge all around.  So, cash-on-the-barrel-Paypaller, do you care to respond to any of this?  Or would you rather go on blaming Israel and "the banks" for your financial problems?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:50 | 1008304 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Exactly because it is such an efficient use of resources having them stashed in a closet somewhere.

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 23:41 | 1010132 Amagnonx
Amagnonx's picture

The main problem with the western world, and the reason that its people will never escape - is law.

 

Unless the people over throw the Roman based law - they will be subject to a legal system in which law is a commodity, and the system is designed to be inaccessible for ordinary people.

Also - debt and credit are both uneccesary and harmful.  Banks not only needed to have 100% reserves, but they should not issue credit and debt - it should be illegal to do so.

 

For a mortgage for example, a property can be divided into a number of shares.  The bank and the perosn who wishes to finally purchase the property both buy shares, with a contract that means the bank can not sell the shares to anyone else, unless there is a rental default.

 

Then the person who wants to live in the home pays rent on each share - and can purchase new shares from the bank whenever they have money to do so.

 

The value of the property and rent are revalued by mutual agreement annually or so (use of third parties).  If the value of the real estate falls - they both lose - but the rent will also fall, and the buyer can get the shares more cheaply from the bank.

EQUITY NOT CREDIT!  Debt and credit should be made illegal.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:19 | 1007210 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

Just wait till the Jews declare war on this like they did to Germany in 1933 after Germany decided to circumvent the banks and trade barter

http://guardian.150m.com/jews/jews-declare-war.htm

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:32 | 1007279 ChartreuseDog
ChartreuseDog's picture

Yeah, right, trust the Nazis to post the truth about the Jews.

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:46 | 1007341 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

NAZI means National Socialist, I abhor both (fanatical)nationalism and socialism/communism so calling me a nazi is out of place, just call me .... a truth seeker

"Yeah, right, trust the Nazis to post the truth about the Jews." -

So I guess it's fine to trust the jews to say the truth about the nazi/germans ?

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:13 | 1007830 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

You are a JP Morgan/Rockefeller/Vatican lackey trying to divert public anger from your masters to someone else, just like happened in nazi Germany. Germans might be idiots in believing such lies, but the rest of the world isn't.
You and your masters will soon hang.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:24 | 1007896 Cindy_Dies_In_T...
Cindy_Dies_In_The_End's picture

Tyler-- this is exactly why there needs to be a bare boned policy of moderators here who can toss these anti semitic assholes.

 

Lets face it, these type of statements do a disservice to ZH and its community. Who can take a site seriously that allows this?

 

Who will donate to a site that allows this.

 

Ps-- I'm not Jewish, its just gotten out of hand, though, really.

 

Why not allow writers on the site the ZH contributors to be mods?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:06 | 1008118 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

Drupal has an "Ignore User" patch, I've asked for it on several ocassions.

I understand that the site may not want to (freedom of speech, etc.) or cannot (time-consuming) deal with bigoted comments and commenters, but then why not give each individual user the ability to ignore members of their choosing.

To be honest, abusive, derogatory and inflammatory posts like those above (against any group or individual) are the sole reason why I don't come here as often as I used to.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:58 | 1008353 melachiro
melachiro's picture

+1

It's gotten to the point of absurdity recently!

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:26 | 1008525 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

We must not curtail free speech, even the most offensive kinds. If you don't believe in freedom of speech that you despise, you don't believe in it at all.

 

Trust me, I would love to see less Jew-bashing around here. Many of these assholes leave a very bitter taste in my mouth, and I agree that it makes everyone on ZH look bad. Having said that, one of the things I love about ZH is that there is virtually no censorship. This is important, and it goes to the core of what I believe ZH represents: a beacon of free thought in an increasingly controlled world.

 

Perhaps people like you and I could act as 'unofficial moderators'. Maybe we could jump on these guys whenever they start up with the 'Jews did it' mantra. To this point, I've taken the position of simply ignoring them. However, I'm up for handing it right back to them if doing so isn't an act of futility.

 

"How it infuriates a bigot, when he is forced to drag out his dark convictions!"  -Logan Pearsall Smith

Maybe this is all that we need to do; ask them to state their beliefs. Hopefully, they'll tear themselves to shreds, and lose any and all credibility that they may (or may not) have had.

 

Zero censorship on Zero Hedge!

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:30 | 1008559 nathandegraaf
nathandegraaf's picture

Well said.  But I think your first instinct to ignore is the right one.  People stop yelling when no one yells back. 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:16 | 1008633 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

I used to get all bent out of shape and yell back. Then I realized that most of the ugliness coming out of some of these posts have more to do with the poster than whatever it is that they're griping about. There is a whole universe inside of each of us. It can be quite terrifying to explore. Many people, even the smartest among us, would prefer to project that fear out into the world rather than undertake the journey. It isn't always the case, but odds are greater than chance.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:51 | 1008307 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Look Mikey it is your queen for the moronista movement.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:51 | 1007375 clymer
clymer's picture

 

Agent Provocateur must be nice to be on the federal payroll and post this kind of garbage to thwart to legitimate freedom movement by poisoning the well-spring of freedom with anti-semitism.

 

sounds like good work, if you can get it. (if you don't mind selling your soul)

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:02 | 1007408 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

'Antisemite' used to mean someone who hates Jews. Now it means someone whom the Jews hate. --LA Rollins

Anti-Semitism is nothing but the antagonistic attitude produced in the non-Jew by the Jewish group.
The Jewish group has thrived on oppression and on the antagonism it has forever met in the world...
the root cause is their use of enemies they create in order to keep solidarity...
--- Albert Einstein, quoted in Collier's Magazine, November 26, 193

Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it. - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:17 | 1007559 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

I'm not sure if "Jews" control the world, but as far as the above: spot on.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:51 | 1007711 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

++.. in full agreement chumba

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:17 | 1007867 CH1
CH1's picture

You're a troll. Divide and Conquer! You serve your masters well.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:23 | 1007889 grl
grl's picture


Could you give the link to your Einstein source please? Usually when I read comments that are sourced from old print media, there is a scan of the actual quote as it appeared in its original. As to the Sharon comment, since there is probably no way to validate it, I suppose it is up to the reader to believe it or not. I wouldn't doubt he made this comment as he was an arrogant politician but if you take it literally, well, I think that would be foolish. I agree that some Jews do use the term "anti-Semite" too loosely and sometimes manipulate it for some advantage but you have to understand the sensitivity Jews have towards perpetuating the notion that they control the world. That is the type of demagoguery that eventually ended in 6 million Jews murdered. In the last century the Jews were first vilified with words and stereotypes and when Germany’s economy and geo/political standing cracked, the Jews were blamed, i.e. scapegoated. I have always wondered how, if the Jews were so all-powerful and controlled the world, they let six million of their own get murdered. It never made any sense to me. Maybe some really powerful Jews actually engineered the whole thing for their own benefit…sort of like 9/11?  

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:33 | 1007944 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Or maybe a large but nowhere near 6 million number of Jews were killed to corroborate the horror, and the universities and historians and news media did the rest to fill in the collective memory to create the story we have today.

I'm not saying the Holocaust didn't happen, nor that 6 million Jews weren't put to death.  I'm just saying, by legal definition, that's all hearsay to me, because I wasn't around to witness it myself.  And based on my current knowledge of the way this society I live in called the "United States of America" functions, I would not doubt for a moment any credible evidence that comes forward disproving any part of the Holocaust legend.

We now know that the zionists were working with the Nazis*.  What else awaits to be discovered to chip away at the official story?

* http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html and http://www.amazon.com/51-Documents-Zionist-Collaboration-Nazis/dp/156980...

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:51 | 1008054 grl
grl's picture

 Well Chumbawamba, I almost feel silly even replying but I just must say this...I am a 2nd hand witness to the atrocities. I personally knew (and still know a few who are alive) who were there and told me the stories. I have personally heard the stories about the camps. There are tons and tons of video archives of eyewitness accounts...of pulling entire Jewish populations out of towns, having them dig ditches and then shooting them one-by-one, including children, into the ditch, of the camps, of the ovens and gas chambers...I really don't think these witnesses were having a group delusion or lying and I know the witnesses I have spoken to weren't lying. To quibble with the numbers and whether it was 6 million or less is a red herring. There is no doubt that the Germans murdered huge numbers of Jews (the population censuses can prove it) and that it was done because the Jews were supposedly controlling the economy/world/power...whatever. Try using some sense rather than looking for someone to blame. I still want an answer to my earlier question, if the Jews were so powerful, how did they let the Holocaust happen? Give me a reasoned answer and I will consider it. 

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:03 | 1008105 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

You're arguing in a fashion most circular.

I am not here to either prove one thing or disprove another, merely to make you consider:

Everything you know is based on hearsay (second-hand accounts).

Given what we now know about the nature of our governing institutions (that they control through illusion and fraud), is it not possible that a story has been concocted to elicit the response necessary for them to carry out their agenda?

I'm sorry you had to reduce yourself a level to respond to me, but I would appreciate a reply that does not make yet another revolution.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:04 | 1008108 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

I would suggest everyone must make the distinction between Zionists and Jews. There is a huge difference. Just as there is a difference between politicians and ruling elites. The failure to make these differences clear leads to misunderstandings and obscures the basic argument.

There have been many acts of genocide practiced upon many different groups. None more terrible than the next. It would behoove us all to understand how they happen, how they are allowed to progress and the characteristics of the groups and leaders that perpetrate them, so we can eliminate them in the future.

Hopefully, the beginning of this understanding resides in the abuse of power- power accumulated through centralized government.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:59 | 1008352 Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

There is a difference up and until the time comes to capitalize on the close relationship. There are Cancer cells and Cancer cells. There are no kinda-Cancer cells.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:45 | 1008591 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

Yes, humans, in all of their beautiful complexity, with all of their hopes, dreams, failures, ideas, and stupid-ass blog posts are exactly like cancer cells. Exactly. Apt analogy.....agent smith.

 

/sarc off/

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 01:35 | 1010347 long-shorty
long-shorty's picture

well-said.

these posters who can so easily categorize by group need to go out and make a few friends belonging to some different groups. hatred problem solved.

I kind of agree with the posters who suggested some level of censorship here at ZH. It's dangerous for people to have their sociopathy validated by other sociopaths, like somehow it's normative. I'd hate for some kid reading this site to go lynch somebody or tie them to the back of a pick-up truck and drag them to their death.

Hard to see how creating a popular platform for putrid, hateful thoughts advances society's wellbeing.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 12:28 | 1011481 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

I agree with your first line, but everything else is cabbage, as they say in jersey.

"It's dangerous for people to have their sociopathy validated by other sociopaths..."

I don't believe that sociopaths need validation for their sociopathic thoughts and beliefs. It is kind of part of being a sociopath. Sociopaths are dangerous because they don't/can't care about other people or feel what other people are feeling. They are not dangerous because they read some bullshit on the internet.

 

"I'd hate for some kid reading this site to go lynch somebody or tie them to the back of a pick-up truck and drag them to their death."

I think you'd have to be a pretty sick person to not be disgusted by such an act. However, you seem to be suggesting that removing hateful material from the internet will somehow curtail violent crimes. I don't know how you arrive at this conclusion. "Hate crimes" have been around much longer than the internet (personally, i believe all crimes require some degree of hate or at least indifference toward the victim, and thus we should not distinguish between what is a hate crime and what is not; it is pointless).

See my comment above 1008525
for thoughts on censorship.

I am not a bigot, but I don't believe we should try and silence the free exchange of ideas. I don't care how flawed, incorrect, unsettling, disgusting, or revolting the idea is, I want everybody to feel free to express what they're thinking. If you don't agree with me, you should examine whether or not you really believe in free speech at all.

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:52 | 1008308 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

grl, do you really think you can have an intelligent discourse with someone who has an agenda and will bend and manipulate the facts to fit that agenda?  It would be like arguing with ben bernake... don't waste your time.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:29 | 1008925 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Oh really?  What is my "agenda"?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:25 | 1008912 DarkAgeAhead
DarkAgeAhead's picture

Ah the Glenn Beck argument. 

Chumbawamba...a departure from your generally finely and lucidly argued other posts.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:30 | 1008927 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Nigga please.  I've misspoken more words about this ridiculous subject than you've spoken.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 23:59 | 1010162 Amagnonx
Amagnonx's picture

Where we must confuse ourselves with tricks of language, and hide from the truth - and apologize for seeing clearly and speaking it directly - then we ought not call ourselves free men.

 

If the Italians piss me off - then I will call them out - people need to think a little more clearly regarding the way their mindshave been controlled to ev en give credit to such a notion as 'anti semitic'.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 19:05 | 1008223 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture

Yeah, right, trust the Nazis to post the truth about the Jews.

For a Jew posting the truth about "Jews", try out Brother Nathanael.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOXKBdKOn1k

http://www.realzionistnews.com

PS: Anyone know if he is a fraud?

edit: Self junked. Pondering the feasibility and consequences of a kill switch, a la CH1...

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:34 | 1007284 CH1
CH1's picture

Tyler - a Kill Switch PLEASE?????

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:55 | 1007402 Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

You could ignore but you chose not to. Rather you opt for censorship so your agenda has the loudest voice.

Interesting.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:18 | 1007874 CH1
CH1's picture

WHOA - is there an Ignore button?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:28 | 1007920 Cindy_Dies_In_T...
Cindy_Dies_In_The_End's picture

Its distractionist bullshit and you know it. Lets face it, ZH publishes groundbreaking stuff, but the minute the MSM accuses Tyler of being a Jew Hater for allowing anti semitic comments, He loses credibility and WE lose credibility to fight the future.

 

Enough is enough. Go Jew hate elsewhere, its nonsensical bullshit and it needs to stop.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:35 | 1007958 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

I think Tyler's reputation precedes itself and will weather any accusations of religious bigotry that stem from statements made in the comments by site visitors.

I'm not saying anything either way, but remember that it was once considered offensive and repulsive to question what happened on 9/11 as anything but a terrorist attack.

Nothing you know is true or real.  How do you know?

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:15 | 1008155 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

Nothing you know is true or real.  How do you know?

What is there to know? The article is about freaking Alt-Market and the comments are off topic.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:08 | 1008406 pods
pods's picture

Well I think that one could correctly argue that the above comments are not off topic at all.  This Alt-Market idea is one that is arising due to the inherent evil of the fractional reserve banking/issue of debt money paradigm.  

There is a plethora of information about the beginnings of said system, and it is unmistakable that many of the designers were of a particular type.

Now whether that is important or not might be irrelevant, but it certainly is not off topic.

The knee jerk reaction to any mention of the traits of the designers and financiers of the current central banking system is telling in and of itself.

pods

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:59 | 1009078 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

The knee jerk reaction...is telling in and of itself.

Bingo! Are some egos so fragile that prior restraint must be practiced against any form criticism...straw-men or not?

 

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 19:13 | 1009307 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture

Some of The Powers That Be / Confederation of Assholes hides very effectively behind the "you're an anti-Semite" card. They shall be exposed, in time, and without offending honest Jews too much.

"And that's all I have to say about that."

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:30 | 1008191 Cindy_Dies_In_T...
Cindy_Dies_In_The_End's picture

Its one thing to question an event, its an entirely different matter to attack a group of people, whether they be Jewish, Muslim, etc.

 

I'm not saying we should be "PC" (that would suck), but when we have these sort of mindless attacks on one specific set of people, it is a problem.

 

I mean its seriously b-b-boring anyway, its like saying anyone who is Muslim is a terrorist etc., adnauseam. It just has no place on a site like this.

 

I respectfully disagree with you Chumba. I understand what you mean from past posts of yours, but the direct attacks on people in specific groups merely because of their religion/orientation/etc should end. It just does the collective here no good in the short or long term.

If these people have direct proof on a specific person, then fine, attack that. Otherwise who the fuck cares except people who only intend to cater to specific hate groups? I mean are we trying to recruit that type of person here?

 

No thanks, we should stay on topic. and if someone thinks it should be a topic, they should PROVE it with real facts, not some drivel dreamt up by someone who masturbates in front of a [insert idiot such as Hitler or other supremacist and/or nutjob name here] poster.

 

Until history is revised, allowing these sort of antics to continue always ends badly. I don't think Tyler wants his site to be mentioned as the "cool, on top of their shit site, unfortunately with a bunch of nutjob survivalists, anarchists, crazy people and oh yeah, Jew haters".

 

Nope. that never ends well.

 

 

 

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:32 | 1008216 Cindy_Dies_In_T...
Cindy_Dies_In_The_End's picture

 Non Passaran
--totally agree, but I just happened to see an escalation of anti semitic comments lately. At some point, something has to be said. Sorry to do it here.

 

Alt Market is a great idea whose time has come. I would like to know more about the people behind it.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:15 | 1008448 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

and the crowned prince of the moronista movement.

 

they must have forgotten to plant the WMDS in Iraq too.

 

Why don't moronistas ever post actual trades to fade?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:10 | 1008135 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

Certainly against "Jew hate," but this site is beyond full of hate on a regular basis. So it seems odd one focuses on rescuing just this group by banning these particular haters  (see references to bankers, Goldman Sachs, Walmart, insurance companies, CEOs, the "rich," etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....).  

If you do not like being around folks who are full of hate, this site is not for you. 

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:34 | 1008225 Cindy_Dies_In_T...
Cindy_Dies_In_The_End's picture

"If you do not like being around folks who are full of hate, this site is not for you. "

 

Not a clear thinking day for you. Its only somewhat recently that this site has gotten a bit "hate filled".

BTW, I've been here since this was a blog how about you little boy?

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 15:43 | 1012386 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

So you seem to agree this site now has hate filled people and comments -- very easy to find such here.  FYI-been around this site a long time.

Seems folks should be responsible for censoring themselves, but not others.  But that might require self control and discipline and being secure -- something else that is in very short supply in the US and many posters on this site.

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:54 | 1008322 Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

Did any of you even read the guys material? Headlines from the Daily Express.

Headlines from a public newspaper.

Those who ignore or revise history are doomed to repeat it.

I accept each and every story and comment on this website as an opinion. I believe everyone has a right to their opinion.

I am not a oppressive censorship type. Ignore what and who offends you, it's easy just skip over those offensive naughty words. Problem solved.

You don't need a PHD to figure out how to skip over comments do you?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:52 | 1008051 takinthehighway
takinthehighway's picture

Oh, please, can we stop with the whole "Jew" thing?

 

Whatever their individual ethnic or religious backgrounds, these would-be "masters of the universe" worship only at one altar - THEMSELVES. They will use whatever comes to hand - currency, commodities, water - to further their selfish aims.

 

The whole "Jew - Gentile" paradigm has about as much validity as the "Democrat - Republican" one.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:46 | 1009026 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Well spoken.

Two points to never forget in an uncertain future...

99.99%+ of all Jews are neither 'investment' bankers nor seek to control foreign governments.

99.99%+ of all Muslims do not engage in any acts of "terror".

Let the hate and killing end.

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:08 | 1007157 Just Observing
Just Observing's picture

Welcome AMM.....you're about to discover a whole lot of us have been "outlaws" for years in the underground economy.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:27 | 1007246 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

And on silver horse we ride!

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:09 | 1007158 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

BERNANKE SAVED US ALL FROM DEFLATION!!

WHO CARES ABOUT ALL THE REST!!

HE'S GOD!!

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:14 | 1007178 Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

Look at you! Bold Caps all day long! WTF?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:29 | 1007253 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

SD and Judy sitting in a tree, K I S S I N G!

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:39 | 1007315 RemiG2010
RemiG2010's picture

Are you implying he is Jesus?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:11 | 1007160 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

From the US Constitution

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:15 | 1007190 gwar5
gwar5's picture

I don't think it includes private individual arrangements 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:56 | 1007394 DosZap
DosZap's picture

When the People who took the Oaths to Protect and Defend that do so, I will too.

Don't expect me to follow laws that the Leaders of the country spit on, and only quote and /or use when it suits their nefarious needs.

Fascists cannot live under the LAW of the Constitution.........and I cannot live under their made\up shit.

Pretending to be righteous on the outside, they appear as white washed seplecures, but inside are  full of dead mens bones.

As long as they run roughshod over it, and ignore it, and treat it like shit,they need to be impeached or hung.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:12 | 1007171 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Interesting.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:12 | 1007172 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Dudes adn duddettes, the american constitution is not what you think it is. At least iin as much as you are not party to it. Do the research.

if you try to get all constitutional and all, fail from the world go.

Frame something new. Or break the frame.

None of this will be allowed to go anywhere. Any new movement will start tiny. Tiny.

I have my own suggestion to save america, the world even.

I call it dis-mantleing the Industrial revolution.

Think about that name.

Then go through your house, and whatever you do not need, take it apart. Little motors, screws, nuts, bolts, golf clubs (that third set), wheels from toy cars, all thsoe costco overpurchases.

Gather it locally, cleaned, tested.

There will be a HUGE market for it (there already is, but other people get the money).

Learn the art of dismantling.

Middlemen are gettign all the bebefit. Want to see how critical it is? Go see the chain links and huge guards at auto-dismantlers.

You have gold everywhere.

Go on, dis-mantle the industrial revolution, one screw at a time.

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/truth-about-america-truth-about-us/

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:21 | 1007225 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

The Constitution explicitly details an alternative currency for the states.

It's called Gold and Silver coin.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:26 | 1007247 CH1
CH1's picture

Quite so, but how long has it been since the Constitution mattered? A long time by my calculations. :(

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:32 | 1007269 CH1
CH1's picture

ORI: How about transcending the Industrial Revolution, rather than rolling it back?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:15 | 1007858 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

CH1, too much explosive energy bound up in all those "things". and they are all bad for us.

Please see:

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2010/12/24/where-do-we-fit/

 

So, why not loosen the gordian knot? A slip or two?

ORI

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:19 | 1007882 CH1
CH1's picture

I'm in for any reduction in one group of people forcing everyone else to obey them.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:35 | 1007283 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Why dismantle the industrial revolution here when you could move to the Third World?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:45 | 1007340 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Why on earth would you want to voluntarily consign yourself to poverty?  The industrial revolution is what brought the world OUT of poverty.  Specialization is good.

These shit policies that have been adopted by governments are DEINDUSTRIALIZING the whole western world.  Industry can only exist sustainably in a free market.  

Not everyone can survive as carrion animals, which is what you seem to be advocating here.  Farm life is hard and short without the support of industry.  Not my idea of a good time.  If you want local industry, great.  That is NOT dismantling the industrial revolution, but restarting it.  If you are advocating "back to the land", then you are advocating poverty and death for hundreds of millions, and total environmental destruction as people desperately strip nature of any sustenance once their supply lines break down.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:07 | 1007478 DarkAgeAhead
DarkAgeAhead's picture

Specialization is good to a point.  The industrial revolution has virtually ensured total environmental destruction.  We're just on the front end of that collapse.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:23 | 1007897 CH1
CH1's picture

Specialization aided ignorance, and ignorance (willing ignorance and willing moral sleep, if we are honest) is bringing the collapse.

IMO, the Industrial Rev. ought not receive the blame - ignorance of how the world works and a pathological wish for dependency did that.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:15 | 1007533 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

T,

I disagree.  Specialization is not good.  Specialists are good at one thing, and one thing only.  Everything else, they have to rely on someone else to do.

I woke up one day and realized I was a specialist.  I was a one trick pony.  I did one thing well, and everything else I'd grew up doing I had either lost or forgotten.  It was a disappointment.

Since then I've (re-)become a carpenter, a mechanic, a metallurgist, a chemist, a physicist, a miner, an economist, a lawyer, a farmer, a doctor, a trader, and a businessman.

As to ORI's message, I think you missed it.  I have been a dismantler for the better part of the past decade.  I take society's discards and turn it into money (note: that doesn't necessarily mean paper bills, or even gold and silver).  I am wealthier than ever.

Think about this: when have any of us (except for the really old, and even their memories are probably short these days) not had several stores to choose from locally where we can go and purchase stuff just about any time of the day?  Those days are coming to a close.  Where are you going to find that much needed part when the stores are all closed and the supply chains all shut down do to currency collapse and energy scarcity?  You'll find it in your neighbor's house, or in your friend's garage across town, or in some hoard that someone took the time to acquire, one screw at a time.

Industrialization has been dehumanizing for almost all involved.  We no longer live in a society, we live in a machine.  You are no longer a human, you are a cog, a gear, an axle, or a shaft.  You are merely a part, and your worth is only realized as being a part of the whole.  By yourself, you are worthless to the machine.  But you are human.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:52 | 1007713 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Thanks Chumba, that was my point.

Well said.

ORI

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:03 | 1007767 tmosley
tmosley's picture

"Specialization" does not mean that an individual should have only one interest or know how to do only one thing.  I, for one, have numerous skills that I have developed.  It means that areas that have conditions that are highly favorable for one type of product should be allowed to produce that one thing to the best of their ability.  For example, I wouldn't start a copper mine in my town.  It just wouldn't make sense, there is no copper in the ground.  It would make a lot more sense for me to open a cotton-related business, as there are a LOT of cotton farms around here.  

Industrialization doesn't make you a "cog" in some machine.  You do that all by yourself.  In an industrialized, but free society, people might start off as "cogs", but they advance!  People move from line worker, to technical specialist, to manager, to executive, or from executive to office worker for those who can't hack it.

Think for two seconds about life prior to industrialization.  It wasn't romantic.  It was brutal and short.  No middle class.  No American Dream (the Horatio Alger version, not the Bawney Fwank version).  You worked your ass off until you were 35 then you died, hoping that one of your 15 children might be able to break out of the hell that your life was.

You can think of society as a big, evil machine if you want, but that doesn't make it so.  Cooperation makes life easier for everyone, so long as it is voluntary.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:24 | 1007901 DarkAgeAhead
DarkAgeAhead's picture

It's not that simplistic as a State of Nature existing before the world industrialized.  Many ancient cultures are living testament to that.

I'll never understand the bias against pre-industrial times, particularly by those in the "bright green" (bullshit) communities...

Industrialization has triggered the world's sixth great extinction event.  We traded short term comfort for longer term suffering, possibly even extinction.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:44 | 1008016 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

So we traded short, merciful lives for long, brutal ones?

Look, I see what you're saying, but that was true in another time, that time being before September 2008.  We are in a quantitatively and qualitatively different existence now, one that depends more on generalized skills rather than specialization.

There are dozens of construction guys, gardening guys, painting guys, etc., who are all specialists in their trade, and all vying for my dollars.  It worked for them when there were more jobs than guys to do them, but now it's the opposite.  What good does their specialization do them now?

What good does being a line worker, a technical specialist, a manager or an executive do you when the company is closed down?  All those jobs are dependent on the company.  And companies are dependent upon a sound economy, none of which exists today and none of which will return for quite some time.

Ignore all that, what I'm saying is this: the reality is that we are entering into a new phase of human society, one that will likely require us to all be able to carry our own weight.  The more you know how to do, the better your chances for success.

As for regional specialization, sure.  You don't mine for copper in a cotton field.  But I've only ever heard "specialization" used to describe human skillset.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:06 | 1008121 tmosley
tmosley's picture

No, we trades short, brutal lives for long, happy ones.  Now that deindustrialization is being forced on us by the pure mass of government weighing us down, we are headed right back down that sliding scale.

ORI's post implied that we should all grow our own food and provide everything we need ourselves.  If you know anything about life or history, you should know that subsistence farming SUCKS ASS.

You see the world around you as it is now, and you blame the decay on industrialization.  This is not the case.  Industrialization BUILT the world around you.  It is deindustrialization that has caused the decay you now see.

This trend is perfectly reversible.  Even in the absence of cheap energy, capital can still be used to create factories which allow the creation of cheap, high quality goods.  But if everyone is forced to work 18 hours a day to get enough food to eat and to keep a roof over their head, then you won't see that.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:29 | 1008197 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

See, this is where our viewpoints differ.  I don't see us returning to subsistence farming.  Humans never devolve.  Sure, we have periods of less than optimal life quality, but always we progress, somehow, in some way.

I see us having a new Renaissance, which will follow as soon as the new Dark Ages we are being thrust into finally runs its course.

We will ultimately enter into a new gae of personal liberty.  Finance will still happen, but on a more personal level.  In some ways we wil go back to the good old days, in other ways we will move on to new frontiers.

At least, in my hopeful (naive?) future.  Not sure about yours.

You may see crisis, but I see opportunity ;)

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:46 | 1009024 DarkAgeAhead
DarkAgeAhead's picture

Depends on how you define devolve.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:32 | 1008210 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

ORI's post implied that we should all grow our own food and provide everything we need ourselves. 

Huh? Maybe a quick re-read is in order? 

Not really at all, though self-dependence would be a good thing.

ORI

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:37 | 1008603 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Sanford or the Son?

Stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night too?

Glorified junkman with google and delusions of grandeur.

 

Specialization only in the human condition would be why all bee's perform the same function.

 

I am not Chumbamoronista and thank the heavens for that.

 

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:36 | 1008959 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

I see your specialization is that of blog troll.

Except in your case, it's not so much a specialty as a desperate attempt at income generation.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:28 | 1007926 CH1
CH1's picture

A lot depends on how you define 'specialist' - an eternal and unchanging ONE specialty, or serial specialties.

I agree that I would never want to be one thing for life, and that's all. But serial specialties or multiple specialties is cool, IMO. But, we still divide our work into specialties: "Carpenter, get that door hung please; electrician, wire the panel please."

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:11 | 1008137 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I don't know why people seem to think it's all or nothing here.  "Specialization" means you get a job and do it well, much better than trying to do all jobs at once, which a subsistence farmer is forced to do.  It does NOT mean that you don't learn or know anything outside of the purview of that job!

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:23 | 1008181 sdmjake
sdmjake's picture

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 17:58 | 1009072 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

A most excellent quote.  One I have on a T-Shirt. 

http://www.survivalblog.com/

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 02:19 | 1010389 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Excellent quote, thanks.

ORI

Thu, 03/10/2011 - 19:49 | 1038690 BigJim
BigJim's picture

I do wonder how many of those things Heinlein could do.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:22 | 1007582 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

Hear, hear!  (or however you say/spell that)

Industrialization should be cheered, not frowned upon as some plague on society.  Industrialization made every modern convenience available to everyone.  It chaps my underside to hear folks cheer for small farms and self-sustainability and the complete dismantling of industrialized areas.  We tried that before: it was called serfdom.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:42 | 1007666 DarkAgeAhead
DarkAgeAhead's picture

Serfdom, or Wendell Berry's Gift of Good Land. 

Depends on how you define "modern convenience", including but not limited to whether one includes all of the externalities underlie our modern industrial society, which itself feels alot like corporate feudalism.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:09 | 1007802 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

tmos, please see chumba's post below.

I'm suggesting taking the massive excess buy-up of the industrial sell side push that is crowding every american garage, basement, trailer and attic and take it apart. Those parts are far more valuable in the coming time than what you can get to sell it to some buyer who will take a screwdriver and make 5 times what you do.

And literally too, so much energy tied into all that junk.

Take it apart, release some stress.

Hope that makes it clearer to everyone who jumped up to defend Industrialization (big curse in my book by the way ). 

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/machine-strong-human-weak/

Please try to see beyond this explosive, harmful, injurious world we've created, ion which we purselves are the biggest mis-fits.

ORI

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:41 | 1007665 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

What and start draging a tee pee around on two sticks? Are you nuts?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:14 | 1007183 CH1
CH1's picture

Awesome!

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:24 | 1007235 Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

Agreed, I like barter. Very much. But let's not call it a black market. Let's call it a green market(and make it visible on the website before your opponents get chance to label you).

Too, a little more information on the FED and it's role in systemic destruction and slavery of US citizens would be nice to see there. Education.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:21 | 1007220 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

As long as Two and A Half Men continues to run on TV....well.....as long as one of Hugh Hefner's ex-girlfriends will be on Dancing with the Stars, me and my family will be fine.  Pass me the 401K please.  I need to run down to the bank and deposit some money to save there too.  I need to save up for me retirement you know.  Dow 1,000,0000 here we come. 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:28 | 1007249 omi
omi's picture

The very concept of government is invalid. As long as people do not see government as an evil entity by design, there will always be faulty financial systems - it's simply a consequence.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:34 | 1007290 CH1
CH1's picture

Hard to argue with that.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:07 | 1007484 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Human society is guided by three powers, which should always and at all times be kept separate.  These are Religion, Law, and Militia.  

When there is a merger between the three, you get what we consider to be authoritarian, or dictatorial regimes, though the "religion" aspect tends to be a personality cult, or simple state worship.  

When you separate religion from law and militia, you get the modern liberal state.  This form of society tends to accumulate ever increasing and more complex rules as those in charge attempt to gain more power and wealth for themselves, leading to eventual breakdown.  Watch for state-worship or the emergence of personality cults, as such things are likely to lead quickly to merger of religion into the state.

Interesting is that when you separate all three, you get what we call "anarchy", or Xeer (Somali customary law).  It is unfortunate that we have been unable to observe more than one or two communities that have adopted this practice.  From the anecdotal evidence from the Somali example, Xeer/Anarchy is likely the MOST stable form of social order in existence, as it has existed continuously in that land for 1300 years, longer than the longest lasting government in history (Byzantium--approximately 1000 years), even surviving the imposition of centralized authority by overwhelmingly more technologically advanced Western societies (and the following Communist regime).  These interlopers were never able to control the populace, or collect taxes from them on a sustainable basis (if they had, the foundations of Xeer would have come undone, and they would have a strong central government now, like all other African nations).

Other interesting combinations are religion+law, excluding militia, which leads to tribalism, and religion+militia excluding law, which leads to "holy war".

Owing to these observations, I would suggest that any future constitutional convention take into full account the strong defense of natural rights that comes from separation of religion, law, and militia, and incorporate those lessons their discussions.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:56 | 1007737 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Very interesting!  Thanks for the heads-up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeer

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:44 | 1008009 DarkAgeAhead
DarkAgeAhead's picture

Fascinating stuff - I'll have to think more.

But the most durable government in terms of Time likely is the Haundenosaunee Confederacy, and its Great Law of Peace, more than 1,000 years old and still deliberating for the seventh generation.

I'm not sure how anything really can be kept separate - all is interconnected.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:30 | 1008205 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Sadly, there is no way to prove that.  They didn't have a written history, only an oral tradition, and oral traditions are subject to exaggeration and omission.  

Further, just because there were people living in the area in houses that were similar to the ones they used when the whites got there doesn't mean anything.  They might not even have been the same people (observe the Aztecs adopting much of the architecture of the Olmecs, whom they never had contact with).  It is just as likely to simply be that a culture survived there for that long, in which case China by far takes the cake, as they have existed as a continuous culture for at least 4000 years.  

Thanks for pointing it out, though.  That is an area where I don't know much.  I only really knew about the Mississippian culture, with it's copperworks, which collapsed before the coming of the whites, leading them to believe that the continent had always been populated by savages, which simply wasn't the case.  THey just happened upon them during their "Mad Max" period.

And yes, it can be kept separated, just as church and state (state=law+militia) are separated now.  The vast majority see the benefit, and they don't allow them to join.  This process is made all the easier when there is no aggressive force to the law, and the militia are kept within the houses of the people, rather than in the houses of the state.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:21 | 1008303 DarkAgeAhead
DarkAgeAhead's picture

Your points are well received and well taken.  Though I'd point out corresponding flaws are inherent in modern scientific research.

Scientific knowledge is inherently reductionist, reasonably missing as much as does any oral tradition exaggerates.  As much as may be omitted in oral traditions, so much more may be overlooked or ignored by modern scientific methods.  The fascinating thing is where one applies SEK to test the veracity of older cultures.

The book, Sacred Ecology, by Berkes, does a decent job of outlining the contrasts between scientific and traditional knowledge within the framework of ecology.

So not having a way to prove that itself doesn't mean much, and certainly does not imply omission or exaggeration.

Well, I wonder if church and state actually are separate.  In certain structures and forms, sure.  But that doesn't stop virtually every president from invoking God to justify his policies.  And I write that as a Catholic.

The Haudenosaunee tradition does differ somewhat from China, in that part of their oral tradition speaks of how the Great Law of Peace came to be.  So the history is oral, to be sure, but it's nonetheless marked and measured.

Thanks for the good thoughts.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:39 | 1008623 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Complex social infrastructure has led to the downfall of numerous empires.

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 16:46 | 1008665 DarkAgeAhead
DarkAgeAhead's picture

Definitely.  I'm a fan of Tainter's core work.  Some of his sustainability writing, though, doesn't ring true to me.  I read complexity within a context of resilience. Certain forms of complexity, good...but the complexity we see that allows the Haliburton's, FED's, and JP Morgans to thrive, should be simplified immediately.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:02 | 1007773 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

The concept of government is not invalid. Just like the body needs a head to tell it where and how to take the next step, people need organization and therefore some sort of government. A financial system is obviously necessary, so you don't have to take a wheel barrow of chickens to best buy for your next stack of C.D.'s.

 What needs to be eliminated is selfserving greed and agression on the personal level; that will do as a start.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:34 | 1007954 CH1
CH1's picture

We are NOT body parts.

We are EACH intelligent, self-directing actors.

Commerce does just fine without politicians.

Guns pointed at our heads is no virtue, and INHERENTLY corrupts the gun-holders.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:50 | 1008046 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Yeah, and since self-serving greed and aggression are both human traits that have no possibility of being evolved out of our being anytime soon, I will have to disagree with your assertion that people need organization and therefore government.

What people need is to be left the fuck alone.  The ones that don't will be taken care of in time.  Those left will be ones that will leave each other the fuck alone.  Harmonic equilibrium reached.

The biggest mistake rational and sane people made was letting the meddlers create laws to make it illegal to kill meddlers.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:50 | 1008300 tmosley
tmosley's picture

The body doesn't need to tell its parts what to do.  THey just do them according to signals they receive.  This is a free market interaction, more analogous to a company.  

Sometimes you get a parasite that forces you to do things that you wouldn't normally do.  The government is the parasite.  It does NOT have your best interests at heart, and never did.  The cells couldn't tell, though.  They just acted according to the signals they received.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:28 | 1007250 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Meanwhile the IRS is loading their clips in preparation for the raid on their assets, with assistance from Homeland Security and every local law enforcement agency that wants to split the loot.

Good luck. We're all counting on you.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:22 | 1008172 CH1
CH1's picture

Maybe they are loading their clips, but criticizing the first few people with enough balls to stand up and do SOMETHING is no virtue.

The answer is to sit still and wait for the annual shearing?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:28 | 1007259 Yardfarmer
Yardfarmer's picture

actually Mr. Bruno, people find it very amenable to their immediate purposes to live behind the barrel of a gun until they inevitably find themselves on its business end. your ideologically driven arguments are indeed very persuasive but I suspect your agenda is driven by motivations which rely on provocation and the peddling of fear like most other political nostrums to further their own agendas. and like most ideologies the end result will be coercion, intimidation, and intolerance much like the empire you pretend to call into question.   

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:38 | 1007308 CH1
CH1's picture

Geez, that's a hell of a conclusion to draw!

These guys are busting their collective ass and taking risks to do the right thing. Maybe they are due a modicum of respect and a bit of slack?

This is not about ideological purity, it is about progress. As for me, I'll take it where I can find it. It doesn't need to reach my personal standard of 100% correct.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:01 | 1007436 billhilly
billhilly's picture

Here, here!

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:33 | 1007278 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

I have come to the conclusion that any real revolution will require movement from organization and control to anarchy. As liberty is the antithesis of government, it is the destruction of government at it's most organized levels that must be achieved and then devolved to local government with restrictions on the creation of law. 

Local units of, for example, county size or a population number could be created to provide governance in a manner consistent with individual sovereignty and the protection of private property. 

National defense could be maintained and funded through contributions of soldiers from local areas and a small tax on consumption. A defensive military (submarines, attack fighters, some missile capabilities in conjunction with a land based militia system that provides decentralization of control with capabilities consistent with the repulsion of threats.

The elimination of federal and state governing structures, tax systems and currency control would allow for a maximum of liberty with restraints on organization. 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:40 | 1007317 CH1
CH1's picture

Absolutely and 100% true... and I'll welcome any serious step in that direction.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:47 | 1007353 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

Agreed 100%.  De-centralized power/control structures are the way forward.  Centralization of anything inevitably leads to tyranny.

Well said.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:00 | 1007760 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Yep, and it starts with the individual.

I bow to no government master.  I make them bow to me.  When the opportunity arises, I kick them in the teeth and laugh.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:08 | 1007801 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

You talk really big Chum, I'd like to be there when some  TSA monkey starts feeling you up because you want to get on an airplane.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:35 | 1007969 CH1
CH1's picture

Why would that make you happy?

Feel a need to hurt someone who disagrees?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:37 | 1007980 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

You clearly weren't around when Chumba told his TSA story a few weeks ago.

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 15:52 | 1008312 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Right, how dare someone want to both end oppression and live.

Fucking hypocrites.  Any libertarian that choses to live is a hypocrite!

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:37 | 1007306 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Barter always comes up when times get hard. It's a great idea.

I looked at the website and it's off to a good start.

Any alternative that offers competition to the fiat monopoly is a great idea.

Make TPTB sweat and make friends.

 

 

 

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:40 | 1007312 RemiG2010
RemiG2010's picture

double

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:47 | 1007357 gwar5
gwar5's picture

The Ewoks strike back.

NH bill would make some TSA pat downs without probable cause a sexual violation and make TSA agents register as level III sex offenders:

Bill Would Make Some Airport Screening Sexual Assault - Manchester News Story - WMUR Manchester

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:48 | 1007358 AchtungAffen
AchtungAffen's picture

Giodrano dear, if it's about Constitutional Law, you should know that international treaties ARE supraconstitutional (if signed and ratified).

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:07 | 1007488 DarkAgeAhead
DarkAgeAhead's picture

And the beautiful thing about "supraconstitutional" law, is that there's no such thing as international law.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:09 | 1007497 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Supraconstitutional, ah so, if you feel froggy and think you will go unpunished.( new rope is available everywhere).

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:14 | 1007839 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

Right achtung, and who will enforce supra when they are staring down the barrel of a brainwashed marine's gun?

Maybe some fat assed lawyer in the haague? Uh huh.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 14:56 | 1008076 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Who said the brainwashed marine would ever get close enough to so rudely stick his gun in one's face?

Barrett .50, bitch.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:13 | 1007520 tradewithdave
tradewithdave's picture

Here's a link to a similar solution for social networking. Www.myspacecondos.com

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 13:12 | 1007521 antidisestablis...
antidisestablishmentarianismishness's picture

But wait! Who will we be able to blame for our losses in this fair and balanced system?  Surely not ourselves, I hope.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!