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Guest Post: America Will Not Survive Without Alternative Markets

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Submitted by Brandon Smith of Alt Market

America Will Not Survive Without Alternative Markets

Commerce is the lifeblood of a nation. Without
the free flow of trade, without financial adaptability, without
intuitive markets driven by the natural currents of supply, demand, and
innovation, cultures stagnate, countries whither, and one generation
after the next finds itself deeper in the somber doldrums of economic
disintegration. In an environment of transparency, honesty,
and the absence of monopoly (government or corporate), on the rare
occasions in history that these conditions are actually present in one
place at one time, we often see an explosion of prosperity and true
wealth creation. When local, decentralized markets are
given precedence over subversive elitist leviathans like mercantilism or
globalism, a wellspring of abundance bursts forward. Free
people, building true free markets that serve the specific needs of
individual communities and insulating the overall economy from systemic
collapse; this has always been the wave of the future. Not
“integration”, “harmonization”, or some fantastical nonsensical “global
village” administrated by a faceless unaccountable transnational entity
like the IMF, infested with sociopathic maid raping euro-trolls.

Unfortunately, average Americans today have grown
far too accustomed to having their commerce, and thus their livelihoods,
micromanaged for them. Most cities and states in this
country today are entirely dependent on corporate infrastructure or
federal funding for ready employment and steady incomes. Most people have never even considered life without the Dollar; a highly flawed and unstable fiat currency. They
exist enslaved, without any means to carry on even the most remedial
exchanges in the event that the worthless paper notes finally
hyperinflate into oblivion. Most Americans have never even
imagined where they might obtain food or other goods if grocery chains
were to shut down for more than a week; a very likely scenario
considering the extent to which such businesses are indebted, not to
mention the effects of destructive price increases due to inflation in
commodities and freight rates. The bottom line is, if the
daily fiscal life of the average American were to deviate from today’s
norm even slightly, the results would be devastating. There is no flexibility in our current system. All is rigid and fragile. There is no backup plan.

The problem, of course, is in educating the populace on the necessity of alternative markets. To many, the U.S. economy has been and always will be the standard. How could it change? Surely,
people have been discussing the possibility of total economic collapse
for decades, and it hasn’t happened yet, so why should we worry now?

What these people don’t realize is that first, economic storms are progressive events. They rarely happen in the blink of an eye. Far more like a wounded airplane struggling to maintain altitude but invariably crashing into the unforgiving earth. The
collapse of our dollar has been an ongoing program since at least the
early 1970’s, when Nixon removed our currency completely from any
vestige of a gold standard. Our industrial infrastructure
has been dismantled over many years and replaced with low paying,
remedial, and unreliable service employment. And, our national debt has been snowballing, more than doubling every decade since 1970. You can only put so much weight on the camel’s back before it finally snaps. This brings us to the second point; that snap has already occurred here in the U.S., many just don’t seem to recognize it.

Make no mistake, the year of 2008 was the breaking point. As
soon as the private Federal Reserve in tandem with a paid for and
pocketed U.S. government began rampant production of fiat without
oversight, without guidelines, and without the consent of the American
people, it was all over for our existing economy. The
consequences of quantitative easing measures initiated in 2008 will be
far reaching into the foreseeable future, and will probably go down in
history as the catalyst for immense international catastrophes soon to
come. For people who argue that collapse is a farfetched
“conspiracy theory”, I simply point out that the collapse they scoff at
is going on right now, right under their gullible noses.

This realization usually brings us to the next obvious question; what can we do to stop this terrible landslide?

To begin with, we need to abandon the idea that our
economic implosion is something that can be mended before the pain it
creates is felt. Like every sickness, it is something that we will have to struggle through, and suffer through, before a cure is made viable. There
is also no single magical solution to defuse the situation, and anyone
who tries to sell you one is probably not to be trusted. We
must accept that no matter what we do from this point on, we WILL see a
breakdown of the U.S. dollar and by attrition the rest of our financial
system. Our only practical options are those which
insulate and shield us as much as possible from the effects of that
breakdown, so that the country might have the opportunity to remove
manipulative elements (global corporatists) from the equation, and
rebuild.

Do we wait around for politicians, legislators, and
courts, to set up protective barriers in our communities and our local
economies for us? I certainly hope not. Anyone doing that will be twiddling their thumbs long after the nation has fallen apart. Elections
at the federal level have proven time and again to be utterly useless
in effecting any meaningful improvements in our society, let alone
preventing calamity. There are only so many Ron Paul’s and Rand Paul’s operating in our government today. Vote for them, but don’t put all your hopes for prosperity and liberty into one candidate, or one election.

At the state level (depending on your state), there
tends to be a bit more breathing room, and a chance for free market and
sound money legislation to be pushed to the forefront (as has been done
in Utah). However, relying on state representatives alone will not turn the tide. When it comes down to it, the only person that can protect your financial future, and your community’s financial future, is you. Yes, they created the mess, and now YOU are responsible for cleaning it up. Sorry, that’s just the way it goes…

This means that if we want to ensure any level of safety to our economic environment, we as Americans must do it ourselves.
We must stop buying into the lie that participation in commerce is
about mere "consumption", and actually take ownership of our economy.
We
must decouple from the unstable mainstream system and the dollar, and
construct our own local markets with our own stable non-fiat currencies. They’ll
call them “black markets”, they’ll call it an undermining of the
dollar, they’ll even call it terrorism, but the fact remains, life, and
thus trade, must go on. If the globalist based economy does
not provide an environment that facilitates free trade, or tries to
dominate trade as a method of social control, then alternative markets
are going to arise. It is unavoidable.

Must we go cold turkey on the Greenback, or weekly trips to Walmart? Not necessarily. Alternative
markets can be organized in parallel with the existing system, and used
in tandem until the primary economy takes the final plunge, or, can be
replaced entirely. That is to say, as localized markets,
barter networks, and gold and silver based currencies become more
popular in the midst of the comparably feeble and poisonous mainstream
economy, they will begin to supplant the old system. Why? Because the laws of supply and demand cannot be undone. People want a strong currency, and they want reliable foundations for local trade. If you provide these things, they will cast aside that which doesn’t work, and adapt that which does.

This is why the globalist system strains so hard to undermine any concept of “choice”. Either you use the dollar, or you starve. Either you work within the corporate framework, or you starve. Either you accept the autocratic puppeteering of groups like the Federal Reserve, or you starve. As
soon as people begin to recognize that they actually have other options
beyond the establishment status quo, the base of power for the elites
falls apart.

It is not a matter of IF alternative markets are built. It is only a matter of WHEN alternative markets are built. Barter organizations, food co-ops, and sound money, are a matter of survival. No
modern economic collapse that I know of has occurred without causing
the sudden ascent of localized commerce to fill the void. For
example, Greece has recently seen a significant rise in barter
networking programs in the past year, although some of these programs
are still rather primitive, and many are still too dependent on the
internet instead of encouraging more face to face community building:



Argentina has had barter networks and alternative markets for years following the collapse of its currency and economy. The
Argentine financial system has yet to recover from its collapse,
despite IMF claims that they “saved the country” from certain
destruction. Because of this, barter organizations continue
to operate there even today (again, still in primitive fashion and with
their own shortcomings, including a continued dependence on unbacked
“coupons” as currency):

Economic collapse forces the issue of alternative commerce. The
problem is that nearly every culture to face such dire straights waits
until after they are thoroughly desperate before they launch a
replacement economy. In my view, Americans can do much better. First, we have foreknowledge of collapse. Many citizens are at least aware that the threat exists and treat it more seriously than they did a few years ago. Others
in the Liberty Movement are fully cognizant of the inevitable danger
and have a complex understanding of economics in general. Next,
we still have some wealth (fiat wealth), though dwindling, which can be
converted into tangible commodities like gold and silver, as well as
materials for micro-industries (a skill set you have achieved that is
useful in a post collapse economy could be turned into a micro-industry
you can use for trade). We have extremely wide usage of the
internet (for now), which is the perfect tool for connecting people and
groups together, setting the stage for face to face organization later
on. We have states, with 10th Amendments rights,
which can be converted into “safe havens”; financially, politically,
and socially protected areas of the U.S. where independent citizens can
congregate that provide shelter and mutual defense from the chaos that
collapse imposes. And, most importantly, we have the will
to make these things possible, though it seems hidden or even
non-existent, it is there in many of us. All that is required are vehicles which give that will a direction and a means.

The Alternative Market Project, which I
recently founded, could be one of those vehicles, and could be used as a
way to accelerate the creation of barter networks and sound money
programs. However, to be clear, ANYONE with enough focus and enough patience can set up a barter network within their town or city. The
primary thing to remember, is that this must be done now, while we
still have the ability to maneuver, not after we’re already in a
financial stranglehold.

For anyone out there that still doubts the need for
localized commerce, sound money, and private trade groups, I suggest
they consider the following:

1) In 2010, for the first time in
two decades, central banks around the world became net buyers of gold,
driving prices to record highs:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-29/gold-buying-central-banks-may-signal-bullion-extending-record-price-rally.html

Some skeptics site George Soros’
recent dumping of his gold holdings which was partly attributed to the
drop in metals this past month. However, what they don’t
seem to grasp is that Soros dumped his ETF holdings, or paper gold,
which were likely unbacked by any physical as most ETF securities are
unbacked. He dumped inherently worthless stocks. Unfortunately, this kind of manipulative action by bankers still has psychological effects on the markets. But, as always, gold and silver are coming back stronger than ever, and foreign banks continue to buy.

If global banks are buying up precious metals in
enormous quantities, then logically, it serves our interests to protect
ourselves in the same fashion. More states need to adopt sound money legislation now, as Utah did, before it is too late.

2) The method that the Bureau of
Labor Statistics uses to calculate inflation has been changed 24 times
since 1978, making the CPI the most skewed index in history. The Fed reports inflation at 2.7 percent, and core inflation at 1.2 percent. If
one were to calculate inflation using the old methods, the CPI would
actually be 10 percent, and this is still a conservative estimate when
one considers that most commodities, from oil to grains, have doubled in
price in the past two to three years. The Fed and the BLS
hide true inflation because it signals bad monetary policy and warns the
world that the dollar is devaluing at an alarming rate. Any economy that is still tied to the dollar as this process escalates will be beaten bloody. This includes your local economy. Decoupling
from the dollar and building alternative markets using methods outside
of the mainstream is the only way to cushion the blow. Foreign economies are slowly distancing themselves from the Greenback, and so should we.

3) Remember the
mortgage crisis that triggered the never-ending bailouts of corporate
bankers who gave themselves huge Christmas bonuses as a special thanks
to the American taxpayer? Well, the crisis never stopped. Foreclosure sales have continued to climb, and home values dropped in 75 percent of U.S. cities in the first quarter of 2011:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-10/home-prices-drop-in-three-fourths-of-u-s-metro-areas-realtors-group-says.html

What have global banks done in response? They continue to make wild bets on housing! Why not! It’s not their money! Bank
of America in particular has thrown billions into a gamble that housing
prices will bounce back in the last half of this year, even while the
fundamentals of the economy show no signs whatsoever that house prices
will return, or that people will suddenly begin buying again en masse.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-10/bank-of-america-billions-of-dollars-in-losses-at-stake-on-moynihan-outlook.html

Will bailouts of the “Too Big To Fails” continue? Absolutely. This
signals not only the disintegration of America’s last store of value
(property), but also the relentless creation of debt and currency
devaluation caused by an out of control quantitative easing policy. Bailouts have severe consequences. Don’t ever let old Benanke tell you otherwise…

4) U.S. long term Treasury auctions continue to perform dismally. Foreign
buyers are few, and most prefer not to invest in American debt for more
than six to eight weeks at a time, let alone thirty years:

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/30-year-prices-438-very-weak-auction-indirects-flee

The Federal Reserve now revels in its role as the
only serious purchaser of U.S. bonds, expanding new national debt while
paying for old national debt with a printing press, of all things. The question is not whether Congress will raise the debt ceiling to continue this madness. Of course they will raise the debt ceiling! The real question is; what will happen when they do? Are
you willing to bet your own survival on the hope that foreign holders
of U.S. treasury bonds will not dump their reserves in protest of the
cycle of inflationary debt doom created by the Treasury and the Fed? I’m not…

5) Are you a state or federal employee planning retirement? Expecting your pension fund to cover it? Don’t
bother. Currently, the U.S. Treasury under the ever shameless Timothy
Geithner is siphoning revenues from federal employee pension funds and
401K’s and using them to pay for the horrible machine to keep rolling
while they create even more debt. Of course, Timmy assures us that they’ll put the money back once the debt ceiling is settled:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/treasury-to-tap-pensions-to-help-fund-government/2011/05/15/AF2fqK4G_story.html

States have been creeping towards pension confiscation for at least a year. New
propaganda talking points include arguments that many pensions are
“padded” by employees using legal loopholes to “manipulate overtime” or
steal more money from taxpayers. In some cases this may be
true, but already you can see that the rationalizations are being formed
in the public mind which will allow states to more easily confiscate
all pension funds, as if all state employees nickel and dime the system
and should be punished. In reality, pension confiscation
will only be about poor state management and fiscal ineptness. 
Austerity is about to go into full swing here in the U.S.:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-20/california-legislation-takes-aim-at-pension-padding-for-460-000-official.html

Without the retirement nest egg you spent half your life procuring, what will you do? Continue to rely on the establishment structure that stabbed you in the back? Or, will you step away from the structure completely, and build your own?

6) “Low Food Security” in U.S. households, which is measured by the Census Bureau, grew by 39 percent from 2007 to 2008. The poverty rate has hit a 15 year high. Considering
that the Census sets the poverty level standard as thin as a family of
four living for under $21,000 a year (a ridiculously low income for four
people to live on), it would be safe to assume that poverty is much
higher in this country than is officially reported:

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/us_hunger_facts.htm

This mass of destitution and potential homelessness is hidden away by one thing; entitlement programs. Welfare and foodstamps have created an illusory barrier between our society and the poor that inhabit it. What happens if entitlement programs disappear? All of that ugly truth we tried to ignore will come flooding into full view. Alternative
markets aren’t just a stop gap for ourselves, they are also a new
option for those who have lost everything to the volatile mainstream
economy. We can either make a safety net for those millions
struck by poverty, and help them to become self sufficient, or we can
let them stew out on the streets, waiting for more government handouts,
until they turn towards more violent means to get what they need. Ultimately, by creating new methods of commerce today, we can prevent far greater turmoil and destruction later on.

7) I don’t know if you have noticed, but the world seems to be going loony tunes lately. Unrest is washing over the Middle East like a boiling tidal wave. Protestors are being mowed down by gunfire in Syria, Yemen, and Egypt. The Libyan War is going to go on for years. Pakistan is barely able to hide its own destabilization. The U.S. is sending predator drones into people’s bathrooms in countries across the planet. The EU is now continuing its steady descent into debt default, one overleveraged country at a time. And,
Japan is living up to its reputation as the birthplace of such
luminaries as Godzilla and Mothra, its seas and air absorbing
radioactive material beyond anything we ever saw at Chernobyl. You have to wonder if this is all leading to some kind of climax.

Because of globalization, almost every nation on Earth has been pushed into interdependency with every other nation. At least economically. What happens on one side of the planet effects the other side of the planet. This
fact should be considered by those Americans who live oblivious to
world events, or ignorantly believe that what happens in Vegas stays in
Vegas. We are certainly not protected from the strife across the oceans. Why? Because we have no independent decentralized systems in place to counter the failings of global “harmonization”.

We as average Americans with limited incomes cannot
quickly develop alternative markets on a global scale, but we can
create such markets in our immediate communities. Each new
free and self contained market reinforces the others, until eventually,
you have a network of independent organizations which serve to support
each other simply by being independent. It sounds like a contradiction, or perhaps even a paradox, but it is an undeniable model. The more free a culture is, the more self reliant a culture is, the more prosperous it becomes. Our job, is to bring America back to that realm of prosperity, one town, one city, one state at a time

 


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Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:08 | Link to Comment 66Sexy
66Sexy's picture

The Truth about America:

George Carlin ~ The American Dream

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q&feature=channel_video_title

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 19:13 | Link to Comment Kyron95131
Kyron95131's picture

this in my opinion was some of the best and relevant work that carlin did towards the end of his life..

i miss em

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 10:29 | Link to Comment max2205
max2205's picture

Take away= quit/stop stealing from the taxpayer

GW on the sanctioned US state of emergency powers currently in existence says it all. Nothing will change until whatever makes our Govt so afraid evaporates

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 10:44 | Link to Comment Widowmaker
Widowmaker's picture

Uncle Sam is afraid of YOU (presuming you are a US citizen).

Make no mistake about it.

When the unclean wake up uncle Sam Inc. is history.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 19:31 | Link to Comment Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

My all time favorite Carlin clip.

 

I've informed all my employees to accept .999 silver or pre 65 junk as payment in my store.  Old school registers used to have a marble slab above the cash drawer to check for counterfeits, and a simple drop of the coin tells the story.

 

At some point I may take ammo for payment, but I never shoot anybody else's reloads.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 20:24 | Link to Comment IdioTsincracY
IdioTsincracY's picture

"...without intuitive markets driven by the natural currents of supply, demand, and innovation, cultures stagnate, countries whither, and one generation after the next finds itself deeper in the somber doldrums of economic disintegration."

I must say that was truly poetic ...especially the part about natural currents .... now, how do speculation, algos, CDS and other artificial  instruments fit into these natural currents?

What about the structural and infrastructural investments that only a Nation as a whole can make?

Countries wither when they forget that there is such a thing as a 'more perfect union' and they rely solely on the whim of private entities (redy to move where cheap labor is), speculative capital (always looking for the market with lowest margins and tax rates), and Bankster, ready to pillage the whole economic system in the name of shareholders' interest.

A Nation should be greater than that .... better than sheeple dominated by a financial-political oligarchy, who looks at investment in the Nation as an expense to avoid, and asks for the demise of the middle class as a solution.

Decades of supply side, trickle down economic, and a market dominated by natural laws, and this is what we get ....

We scorn the government, forgetting that we are the Government ... well, not now, not this type of government, controlled by Banksters ....

go tell the fucking Supreme Court ... Corporations have the same rights as individuals ... Great!!

Solutions anybody??

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 21:01 | Link to Comment Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

I can think of .308 solutions

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 21:29 | Link to Comment IdioTsincracY
IdioTsincracY's picture

:-)

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 04:31 | Link to Comment MolotovCockhead
MolotovCockhead's picture

How about molotovcocktail as a solution? Contain highly combustible liquid in it as a solution!!

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 21:41 | Link to Comment UGrev
UGrev's picture

wait a second.. did you really say "decades of supply side, trickle down economics" and mean it? Hmm. let me fix it..

..."decades of supply side and massively screwed with, manipulated and fucked up, trickle down economics, courtesy of everyone who doesn't want you (as George said) 'in the club' "... 

[FIXED SVN Revision 1776.2]

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 00:15 | Link to Comment jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

ron paul for president.  who for his vice president?  tptb will try to kill them both.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 04:14 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

If Ron Paul really wants to win, he's gonna need the electoral votes of Wisconsin, hence he should choose Paul Ryan as his running mate (or Rubio, R-FL).

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 06:53 | Link to Comment downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Except that Paul Ryan is going to get his ass handed to him by the people of Wisconsin for proposing his 'Genocide 2020' plan.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 15:34 | Link to Comment Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Global reversion to the mean is a real bitch.  Now, get over it and start preparing.

 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 20:36 | Link to Comment downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Sure thing.  "We must keep shelling out welfare checks to the Banker-Gangsters for their afford high-priced hookers" seems a perfectly rational argument for killing your grandmother.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 04:22 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

jesse ventura

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 06:58 | Link to Comment downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Jesse would never run as a Republican.  And he would never run with someone who believes in Uncle Sam's alCIAda fairy tale.

Unlike Ron "John Birch Society" Paul, Jesse understands the role of the two-party duopoly in politics.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:13 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

maybe i'm wrong, but Jesse recently volunteered himself to be RP's running mate on the View.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:58 | Link to Comment downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

"If Ron Paul would quit the Republican Party, and he asked me, then I would give serious consideration to running with him."

Ron "John Birch Society" Paul - leave the GOP!!

What a laugher.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 18:28 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

thanks for the correction.  yeah, those masons all have some tangly alliances that's fo sho.  did you hear "Dr. Birch's" response to the offer?

(around 1:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5yN3eExXvs

 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 07:16 | Link to Comment XPolemic
XPolemic's picture

Solutions anybody??

My study of Anthropology involved the study of many groups of Hunters & Gatherers, some of which travelled up to 1500 kilometers in a given year. To travel that far, one is almost always on the move, often walking between 5 and 20 kilometers per day. Under these conditions, everything you 'own' is something else you need to carry, which after a while becomes rather a pain in the ass. So Hunter/Gatherers tend to view possesions as a burden rather than a privilege or a right.

Of course, with the rise of the agricultural revolution, humans began settling in permanent houses, and the transition from burden to privilege for one's possesions began. As this transistion occurred, humans developed systems of measuring 'ownership', a concept that was completely foreign during our time before the agricultural revolution. The Saxons developed a system of laws to determine ownership rights, and from them we get the expression 'property is nine tenths of the law', as nine in every ten Saxon laws related to the rights of ownership.

The problem with property laws however, is that someone needed to enforce them. Whether it was the village council, the King's men, or even an invading foreign power. Strictly speaking, having a armed militia enforce property rights was not the crux of the problem, the problem was that while the enforcers were happy to threaten, intimidate, beat or kill people to enforce ownership, they weren't so keen to enforce the law upon themselves.

And so began the problem of stability of 'government'. If the 'King' or 'Lord' or 'Government' enforced property rights equally, fairly and without predjudice, then society remained stable, and generally prospered. But when the enforcers of property rights abuse their powers to steal property from the citizenry, then the citizenry will look for ways to replace the enforcers with someone else.

The founders of the United States understood this implicitly, and so organised their Government with a separation of three powers, Executive, Judiciary and Legislature. The goal was to have the ambitious, ruthless and greedy go into one of those three branches of government, and spend their energy on fighting with the other two for power. In order to turn the government into a dictatorship, one had to corrupt all three branches along common lines. The three branches have different paths to power, so this was quite a difficult thing to do. In other words, it was the human race's best solution so far to the problem of 'who watches the watchers'?

But something has gone wrong. New legislation has been proposed by the Executive that is unconstitutional, passed by the Legislature, and currently enforced by the Judiciary. This is not the first time in US history that this has happened. Lincoln and Grant both suspended Habeaus Corpus, which is both unconstitutional and a basic tenet of common law. Eventually it was restored and the great social experiment continued.

This time though, it really is different. The United States is the world's remaining superpower, and a military/economic empire. The leaders of the US are out of touch with reality, and live in a delusional Potemkin world of past glories. They are busy playing their violins while their enemies raze the country to the ground.

Perhaps all that is required is a return to the separation of powers. Remove all special powers from the Executive, even in times of war, review legislation that is unconstitutional and repeal it. Before this can happen though, I think the US needs a crisis to wake the people from their slumber.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:20 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

thanks for sharing this.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:55 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

I was with you all the way up to fixing it. This is the problem- you can't fix it. The police power of the state will ALWAYS result in class tyranny. 

Republican government was an attempt to mitigate the nature of man, however, it contains two main fallacies: one, while every branch is separate, they depend on the support of the others to legitimize their actions and fund their use of power. Two, you must believe that the Founding Fathers were attempting to create a utopia. 

While our history would have you believe this- they were just as selfish as a Jaime Demon or Blankfiend. Washington was the largest landowner in America and King Georges declaration regarding the indians rights to their lands directly affected him. Freedom for all? Only if you were a white male. You can attempt to excuse their behavior for a number of reasons, but they are only rationalizations- the fact is, the Elites always feel they are above the laws they create to support the system that guarantees their continued wealth.

Andrew Jackson tossed out the central bank, but remember he was a land speculator and deeply affected by how banks controlled the flow of credit. Worse, he is personally responsible for the slaughter of thousands and tens of thousands of Creek and Cherokee indians. 

There are zero safeguards from a police power vested in one authority. It will always be compromised. There is only safety in individual sovereignty, and then only with the greatest responsibility as a citizen. 

Humans will kill anything, without regard for the repercussions , if it one, benefits them and two, it can be accomplished without rebounding against them. How common is a Jesus Christ or Buddha? Unfortunately, you need thousands  of them to design and run a government that will provide for the greater good of the people. 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 10:25 | Link to Comment chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

It's time for people to finally realize the truth behind the founding of the USA.  It is not the fairytale that is taught in public school, nor is it even the grand experiment described in countless books.  It was merely one grand campaign on the chessboard, the move still playing out.

Things are not what we think they are.

I am Chumbawamba.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 13:18 | Link to Comment cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

hey, I'm guilty of conspiratorialism as much as the next guy, but on this one IMHO, we'd greatly overestimate how 1)smart and 2)powerful the Rothschild clan & hangers-on are/were. Again, IMHO, a combo of smart-assed cold-blooded bankers and destiny. I'm betting the Almighty is still chuckling at the end-game

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 21:46 | Link to Comment chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

No, that kind of wishful thinking isn't going to cut it anymore.  They're much smarter than you and they have a whole lot more money than you do.  Time to evolve.

I am Chumbawamba.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 22:02 | Link to Comment chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

No, that kind of wishful thinking isn't going to cut it anymore.  They're much smarter than you and they have a whole lot more money than you do.  Time to evolve.

I am Chumbawamba.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 18:35 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture
Addressing the Ambassador directly, <Royal Clown> Prince Andrew then turned to regional politics. He stated baldly that “the United Kingdom, Western Europe (and by extension you Americans too”) were now back in the thick of playing the Great Game. More animated than ever, he stated cockily: “And this time we aim to win!”

http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2008/10/08BISHKEK1095.html
Sat, 05/28/2011 - 20:24 | Link to Comment XPolemic
XPolemic's picture

The police power of the state will ALWAYS result in class tyranny. 

Agreed, so we need a police state that results in the least class tyranny.

Two, you must believe that the Founding Fathers were attempting to create a utopia. 

No, you don't have to believe that at all. You just need to believe they were trying to create a system that was slightly better than the one that came before it (i.e. feudal monarchy).


 

There are zero safeguards from a police power vested in one authority. It will always be compromised. There is only safety in individual sovereignty, and then only with the greatest responsibility as a citizen. 

Individual sovereignty is delusional. If there is no police power to protect you from another citizen, then you must protect yourself. If you can protect yourself against another citizen, then they can always form a band of two. If you form a band of two, they can form a band of four, and so on. This is a system we once knew as feudalism.

This is the point that the RANDIOTS miss. Without a central police authority you have feudalism, which quite frankly is a bloody, unproductive constant struggle. While a single police state is not, and will never be, a utopia, if the state and the people share a common goal, it tends to be better than the alternative.

As Winston Churchill once famously said: "Democracy is the worst system of government, except for everything else"

Humans will kill anything, 

Yes, but the same is true of sharks, crocodiles and Megistotherium. Chimpanzees will kill for food and anything that threatens the troupe. They will also kill infants of a rival male (infantacide) and even eat them (cannabilism).

Yes, we should probably hold human beings to a higher stand than that of sharks, crocodiles or even other primates, but how does one enforce that higher standard without violence?

 How common is a Jesus Christ or Buddha? Unfortunately, you need thousands  of them to design and run a government that will provide for the greater good of the people. 

Buddhist don't believe in society, they believe in enlightenment. A human society with a government is simply a society that believes in property rights. Property rights are an illusion, created by post hunter/gatherer socities. Property rights are the source of our struggles.

Consider this: You claim that the elites are stealing from the you. But what if you didn't own anything? What would they steal?


 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 21:33 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

We need a police state?

No, they were creating a system that would benefit them. 

Individual sovereignty is not delusional- believing you can reform a corrupt and failed system is. Without a central police power, the people can purchase protection on a free market that will be beholden to them as consumers, they can focus on the recovery of their property, rather than paying taxes to house the thief. Security, insurance, arbitration- same services, lower cost and consumer oriented. 

Feudalism had a king rather than a central government- not the same systems as anarchy- not even close. 

Private property is what encourages production of goods and services for a different type of society. You may want to return to the hunter/gatherer type. I don't. Property rights are not an illusion, just caught in a negotiation that is driven by government. 

I like to own things. I like to keep the rewards from my hard work. I am willing and able to defend my property, but lets consider your naivete- hunters and gathers didn't have shelter, weapons, hunting grounds, mates and children that they had to defend? 

A human society with a government is a form of slavery. There is nothing simple or desirable about it. 

 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 22:22 | Link to Comment downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Property RIGHTS aren't an illusion.  Those are just rules put forth by institutions.

PRIVATE PROPERTY - ownership of the earth - is the illusion.  Without the make-believe idea White Capital could never have rationalized it's rape and pillage of the world during the so-called Scientific Revolution.

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 10:09 | Link to Comment XPolemic
XPolemic's picture

We need a police state?

Only if you want to enforce property rights.

Without a central police power, the people can purchase protection on a free market that will be beholden to them as consumers, they can focus on the recovery of their property, rather than paying taxes to house the thief. Security, insurance, arbitration- same services, lower cost and consumer oriented. 

Ha ha, thanks for the laugh. "Please Mr Security provider, can you take your big gun and get my property back, and not rob me while you are at it?" Got news for you Kid, Government is a security company, and your taxes are it's fees.

Feudalism had a king rather than a central government- not the same systems as anarchy- not even close. 

Hard to know, given that Anarchy has never actually existed as a system of social organisation, except in the fantasies of some deluded middle class utopians.

Private property is what encourages production of goods and services for a different type of society. You may want to return to the hunter/gatherer type. I don't. Property rights are not an illusion, just caught in a negotiation that is driven by government. 

I don't want to return to a hunter/gatherer society, hence I understand how post h/g societies have always been organised, and always will be, anything else is a fantasy.

I like to own things. I like to keep the rewards from my hard work. I am willing and able to defend my property

Then you will need to either specialise in protecting life and property, a specialist task that societies allocate to specialists, i.e. the police, or you will need to trade some of your earnings (taxes), so that those with specialist training can defend your property on your behalf.

but lets consider your naivete- hunters and gathers didn't have shelter, weapons, hunting grounds, mates and children that they had to defend? 

Correct. They rebuilt their shelter upon arrival, weapons were easily made, and just as easily discarded, hunting grounds were dispersed over a wide area, and given the limits of population of hunter/gatherer societies, always contained an overabundance of game or forage. Mates and children were defended from other animals, but murder was extremely rare, given the fragility of their existence, the relative abundance of food, and the lack of a 'possession' motive.

A human society with a government is a form of slavery. 

Yes. You have just described all human societies after the agricultural revolution.

There is nothing simple or desirable about it. 

Wrong, on both counts. Societies based on permanent settlements are simple and for the great majority, desirable. The middle class have always been blind to those who work to support them and their delusional, fantastical ideas about the world. A bit like spoiled children. Marx was probably the worst of them.


Sun, 05/29/2011 - 11:02 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Yes, everyone can stay in business by robbing their clients- great business model. Taxes are not the same as a negotiated contract for services, nor are the results the same.

My anarchial delusions are no worse than your delusions about your government and it's services, except I can prove your delusions are real, tyrannical and diametrically opposed to our well-being.

Anarchy isn't free, but if you would read up on the subject, you might understand how it operates. Claiming superiority through ignorance is not something I wouldn't want to brag about, but heh, different strokes for different folks.

Well, I guess I missread all that history about indian tribes killing each other for territory, food, supplies, wives and children. It was a real garden of eden.

No, I was describing all societies we have a historical record for with few exceptions- do bone up on the Xeer. The anarchial possibilities are legion.

Nothing wrong with societies based on permanent settlements, just as long as there isn't a central government with a central police power. 

Finally, there have been many posts by me showing the benefits of anarchy in this thread. None of them require a central police power to protect private property.

I suggest "Anarchy and the Law", by Stringham or anything by Murray Rothbard on anarcho-capitalism. 

Sat, 06/04/2011 - 04:18 | Link to Comment XPolemic
XPolemic's picture

Finally, there have been many posts by me showing the benefits of anarchy in this thread. None of them require a central police power to protect private property.

Point me to the society that is enjoying those benefits right now. Or are they imaginary benefits of a future society that doesn't yet exist?

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 14:57 | Link to Comment cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

The police power of the state will ALWAYS result in TYRANNY. 

There, fixed it.

The police power of the state is the CAUSE of ALL government tyranny.

The Founders didn't attempt to create a utopia.  The attempted to create a system of government with NO executive-branch police power.

How?  By separating government authority into three autonomous branches, legislative, executive, judicial.

The KEY to eliminating executive-branch police power is remove executive-branch ability to make laws and rules, putting it in the legislative branch, and remove executive-branch ability to enforce laws and rules, putting it in the judicial branch.

THAT'S what the Founders did in their 3-branch government model.  They ELIMINATED executive-branch police power. 

The executive branch had NO law-making authority and NO law-enforcing authority.

The very concept of "police" is anathema to everything the Founders did and everything America stands for.

POLICE = TYRANNY

There's NO way around it. Police are THE vehicle of government TYRANNY in America.

Police represent law making and law adjudicating coming together in the executive branch, the #1 thing the Founders attempted to eliminate.

In the 3-branch government model laid out by the Founders, the JUDICIAL branch does ALL law adjudicating and ALL law enforcing.  The executive branch does NO law adjudicating and NO law enforcing.

The 4th amendment declares DUE PROCESS as an unalienable right of the people. 

DUE PROCESS requires ALL government actions against a citizen to be in the hands of a JUDGE in the JUDICIAL branch. 

A JUDGE decides if action is to be taken against a citizen AFTER weighing the LAW and the FACTS presented in a COMPLAINT to the COURT, which can be filed by ANYONE, then considering the RIGHTS of the citizen to insure said rights are NOT being violated.

ONLY when a JUDGE decides action is to be taken and issues a COURT ORDER is action taken, and that action is NOT carried out by executive-branch police, it is carried out by the JUDICIAL branch officer of the Court, the COUNTY SHERIFF at the state level or US MARSHALL at the federal level.

Police VIOLATE that DUE PROCESS procedure by unilaterally taking action against citizens on their own accord, bypassing the judicial branch, playing JUDGE themselves.

THAT is TYRANNY. It's THE way TYRANNY is waged by government against citizens.

ALL executive branch law-making and law-enforcing positions OF ANY TYPE at ANY level of government in America are UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Every federal executive branch rule-making and rule-enforcing agency is unconstitutional.

FBI, DEA, TSA, FEMA, Homeland Security, IRS, etc, etc, etc, all unconstitutional.

State troopers are unconstitutional.

Any other state police agency is is unconstitutional.

County commissions are unconstitutional.

City councils, zoning boards, school boards, school disticts, all unconstitutional.

City police and city courts are unconstitutional.

CITY GOVERNMENTS are unconstitutional PERIOD.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 10:49 | Link to Comment OldTrooper
OldTrooper's picture

Perhaps all that is required is a return to the separation of powers.

I think there is one more element that needs to be restored to the mix - the very real prospect of impeachment, revolution (or secession) and heads ending up on pikes.  Don't forget, we started out with fairly distinct separation of powers - and look where we ended up.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:32 | Link to Comment aerojet
aerojet's picture

While interesting, a lot of this information is irrelevant.  The world would have to lose 6+ Billion people to make hunter-gatherer behavior sustainable again, it isn't going to happen ever again and it is preposterous.  I realize it was just an example, but the point is, we are never returning to a separation of powers ever again.  The system has evolved into fascism.  The only answer now is to ignore the beast and route around it everywhere possible.  The problem is, too many people are hopelessly dependent on the system and will fight (and kill YOU) to defend it. 

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 08:45 | Link to Comment Rhodin
Rhodin's picture

Fascism does not tolerate opposition or noncooperation. If the opposition is defeated, there will be a gulag of some sort for those lacking enthusiam for fearless leader.  At the least, they will be "milked" for resources.

Opting out, if done by large numbers, may advance the timing of the conflict.   Possibly a revolt succeeds and maybe even restores a republic for a time.  If not, it may take a while for facism to die of its self inflicted cancer.

Either way, population declines significantly, but not enough, i agree, for hunter-gather tribes in our lifetime.  Maybe great grandchildren will benefit from archery, foraging and wildcrafting skills, and maybe not.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 08:33 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

One, structural and infrastructure improvements can be done privately and at less cost. Providing you can actually show that they are improvements. Your assumption is just that, an assumption, unless you want to brag about a huge military out of control, nuclear weapons, NASA and more. 

The problem is government itself. They have one purpose- to benefit a small minority at the expense of the vast majority. Couched in promises of freedom and liberty for all, purple mountains majesty, wrapped in the flag is the cold reality of the police state. The lobbying, the payoffs and bribery, the abuse of law by the courts for the few, regulations that keep you poor and them rich. 

If government can be different, where are the examples? Monarchs and their abuse of taxes for luxury, their wars to pump up their image, the use of police to intimidate and confiscate as they debase their coinage until it is a joke? 

Communism or socialism, without a pricing structure for the market to value goods, the KGB or Tiannanmen square brutality, slave labor camps, all while the Bureaucrats dine in their dachas on the Black Sea or Beach resorts in China?

Democracy, where the people are given the choice of two identical candidates in different clothing, where regulation and law become intolerable and yet strangely ineffective for the wealthy, where taxes are the subject of continual increases and budgets never balance?

The philosopher king is an impossibility, therefore dictators and tyrannts will always plow the blood of their subjects into the ground with violence as they rape the country of its' wealth.

There are no paradises in human society, because humans populate them. While we have some control and security when everyone is equal- we have no security when one group is placed above another. 

Power must derive from the individual and be decentralized as it is organized. This is the basis of Anarchy and the inalienable rights associated with private property. People are capable of organizing their society without a single police power. It would not be a utopia. People would be robbed and grifted. Violence would rear its' head. Services and products would be uneven- just like it is now. However, you would pay less, what you paid would cause your contractors to work for your business, you could actually own property. All the services you desire would be just as available as they are now- you would merely pay for the ones you wanted and you would pay less than for comparable services now.

There would be no safety net, beyond your neighbors and friends, but charity would not disappear. You would have to work, but only as much as you needed. Competition would not be dependent on who you know or who you bought. Money would be sound or bankers would fail. We wouldn't have to send our sons and daughters overseas to die for corporate resouce grabs, but I can live with that. No more elections, no need for media propaganda or education systems that dumb down the people. The options and opportunities would be as varied as the free market is itself.

We cannot accurately represent what anachy would evolve into, because we have not tried. Still, if the systems you have are all irretrievably broken and shattered, what have we got to lose? Except the chains from crushing debt... 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:25 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

"charity would not disappear."

i choose to believe that "charity" would actually increase substantially overall under such a scenario.

we got find a different word though JR.   An-R-kee is too loaded with explosive mis-connotations at this point and time is too short to launch a campaign to redefine it.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:54 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

I agree wholeheartedly, on both counts.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 10:07 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

edit: we gotta find...

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 10:51 | Link to Comment knowless
knowless's picture

anarcho-capitalist(ancap), libertarian, or libertarian left sound good?

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 13:17 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

I like Voluntaryism. It gets right to the moral issue.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 16:52 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

When you say Libertarian left, you are making it sound like Libertarian Socialism, which in reality is nothing more than Marxism with a different label to hide how absolutely fucked it is.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:20 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

The problem is that words are quickly coopted and their meaning changed. Libertarians became quasi Republicans in order to be included in the discussion. Classical Liberal became liberal became socialist. Conservative became crony capitalist warmongering asshat. 

In the divide and conquer mindset of the Elites, doublespeak begats the confusion they desire. If I had to choose? Perhaps, "don't tread on me". 

However, it is more difficult to destroy an idea. If we can stay true to an idea that is liberty first and foremost- we may have a better chance.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 16:54 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

The original Libertarian's were co-opted by the Marxist's in Europre, so don't think that it's just the US where this has happened.

 

That's why the word Anarchy or Voluntarism both worth. No one screw's with Anarchy, because everyone are scared of it until they understand it. The Marxist's tried to twist Anarchy in Europe as well, but it never worked out for them. Voluntarism is hard to twist, as the concept of the philosophy is defined as an action that takes place directly through the connotation of the concept alone. In other words, the entire Philosophy is in the name itself. No twisting can be done based on some philosophical basis.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 19:03 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

and ms. ann R. kee has also traveled extensively thru america on both sides --

a decent history of the constructive side here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-TeGrv32Ig

as for the destructive side, i give you this:

"They were also known to be dedicated supporters of Luigi Galleani's Italian-language journal Cronaca Sovversiva, the most influential anarchist journal in America, feared by the authorities for its militancy and its acceptance of revolutionary violence."

http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/sacvan.html

now, out of these 2 definitions, which one of these do our think our fearless leaders are going to choose to spread if necessary?  as you said yourself,

everyone are scared of it

now, could be my paranoid schizophrenia talking, but methinks the trolls are already planting the mines.   just be careful you don't step on them if i'm right.   and if not, you still  learned a new dance.   cheers.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 18:45 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

funny sean, i was actually thinking about pulling out my gadsen flag today.    had to bury it in a dark corner due to those pesky mis-connotations from the neighbors, but methinks it's time to pull it out again.

gotta love the snake.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 16:46 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It's called Voluntarism.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:20 | Link to Comment 11b40
11b40's picture

While I appreciate the sentiments so well expressed, the conundrum becomes security.  Even if we can organize our communities into sub-sets of secure zones, soon comes the highly organized aggressor to lay your land to waste and dominate you and your neighbors.  This has always been the case and is the very nature of man.  "Civilizations" are "built" over time, and they also regress over time, becoming evermore coarse as conditions deteriorate.  We are becoming less civilized in general.  Build a Utopia and watch it become a target; an object of envy and desire to be conquered and possessed.

America has been a target for decades, but our downfall comes from within as no exterior forces hav

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:28 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Security has been supplied by the market in the past and can do so now. Further, if the superpower of the world was incapable of controlling three major cities in Iraq, what chance does any country have?

Security is the ultimate response to anarchy, but is it a reasonable one? Do you honestly feel any safer today, then fifteen, thirty or forty five years ago? Who protects you from your police power? The greatest threat to America comes from its' own police and security apparatus. 

Further, what would be the benefit to attempting to control our country? The loss of life, military costs and social costs would bankrupt any aggressor. Switzerland has the longest running democracy in the world- wirth little more than a self defense force in the middle of a continent filled with every type of aggressor. 

More, a free market economic system would be incredibly efficient and wealthy. It would contain the ability to more than match the wealth needed to prosecute a war and it would be doing it on its' home ground. Read Sun Tzu much? 

The greatest threat would come from this country itself as others sought to benefit from the same opportunities. It is possible that nations around the globe could be transformed as governments are liquidated. 

 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:41 | Link to Comment aerojet
aerojet's picture

I would be careful using Switzerland as an example.  Something doesn't fit.  I think they have existed this long by playing  both sides of the fence, for example, accepting Nazi gold while knowing full well where it came from.  That was the price of not being invaded.  And yes, they do have teeth there, but that alone did not prevent an overthrow.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 14:14 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

With the exception of Napoleon, since 1291, they have been living in the midst of europe, the Hapsburgs, Medici's, Germany, Austria, France, Spain and Britain and found a way to remain valuable to all. 

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 15:52 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

the swiss are "valuable to all" of the banking class, who have overtaken. . . virtually everything.

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 17:56 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

That was the price of not being invaded. 

This sounds like something that came out of a mindless US public propaganda indoctrination textbook.

Switzerland is literally a hybrid Republic - Confederation of 26 Cantons.  In certain cantons and in some respects the local Communes are more powerful than the central government.  

Although you occasionally see the earring-clad long haired person in a uniform, the population is the same as anywhere else, except that citizens are trained to serve in the military, and there are millions of them with guns at home.  Even the banks have shooting teams (in addition to football teams).  So an invader would literally have to fight for each and every yard of Swiss territory.

The Alps are a pain the ass to cross over.  Hitler tried using airplanes and got his ass spanked repeatedly in the prelude to the Battle of Britain, unlike every other European country he rolled over before that.  Throw in the Allied trade blockade and the fact THAT ALLIED BOMBERS DID MORE DAMAGE TO SWITZERLAND THAN AXIS BOMBERS, cooperation against Germany would have been an utterly unrealistic expectation.  Even George W Bush, high on coke, flying in the Texas Air National Guard, could not have accidentally bombed Zurich or Basel.

War is hell.  The US government was more than willing to jump into bed with the Taliban while Soviets were in Afghanistan and let them do as they wanted afterwards, until they bombed three buildings in US.       

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 14:20 | Link to Comment 11b40
11b40's picture

Be careful about what a major power is "incapable" of when it comes to control and supression.  Just because we made a decision not to control 3 cities in Iraq, does not mean we are incapable of it.  How, exactly, do you think Saddam did it?

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 15:20 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Outside of ruthless repression (and even that doesn't work when you're a foreign occupier, remember the USSR and Afganistan?). There are too many Americans, too much land mass and too many weapons. How would someone gain that kind of ascendency in the first place?

The US is INCAPABLE of controlling the US, much less a foreign power. These are the arguments given to support a central police power. How secure do you feel? I, for one, fear my own government much more than any other on earth. 

I understand why nations fear out incursions, because we have a history of doing so. No country on Earth since European colonialism has stolen more or wrecked more havoc than the US. Now, it is turning on itself and devouring itself for the benefit of a few elites. 

Totalitarian Socialism is the greatest threat to the people of the world and it is practiced by Europe, the US, China and Russia. We encourage the malignancy through the placement of central banks in every nation. Quickly addicted to cheap credit and profiteering off their people, every petty dictator is consumed and reconstituted in a new face. Then we bring democracy and put a facade of benevolence on the face of destruction. The more things change, the more they stay the same. 

That is the whole point.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 19:58 | Link to Comment 11b40
11b40's picture

We largely agree.  My whole point is simply that domination and repression of the weak by the powerful is human nature.  So, yes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. 

Safety and security is transitory over time, but the stronger more organized a society is, the better able it becomes to protect it's citizens and "way of life".  We have reached a point in this country that no power on earth can kick sand in our face without fearing they will be buried on the beach. 

You are right to fear our internal threats more than external.  I do too.  On the other hand, I have no illusions about what happens to weak countries and do not want to be a citizen of one.  Fantasizing about anarchy is fine, I guess, but breaking up into little independent Utopian fiefdoms is not the answer.  Spend a little time in a war zone and this issue will become crystal clear in your mind.

The only answer lies in somehow getting back to the rule of law, equally enforced with certainty.  We must be able to make the society we have function properly, else we will very soon have a new form of society imposed upon us.

You and I both probably feel that is our destiny, because I frankly have no idea about how we change the trajectory we are on and rid ourselves of the garbage we call leaders.

Peace, bro'.

Independent Contractor

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 20:30 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Anarchy is not a fantasy nor is it a utopia. Strength is found in organization with decentralization. The rule of law will never be enforced with equality or certainty, because in order to meet the needs of a society, it must be flexible and in order to be flexible, it must allow for interpretation. Consequently, if there is a single power structure, the temptation to use the law for your benefit will always take place.

The US could never be a "small" or "weak" country. There has been one single invasion of the US in its' history- the War of 1812. We are protected by two large oceans that would make supply lines unmanageable and two countries- Canada and Mexico. 

Domination of the weak through repression is what we live with now. How would anarchy be any worse? The strength of a society is not found only in the military. There is economic and social strength as well. It is in the balance of all these strengths that you will find security.

Try thinking for a moment about what a war zone is. You may think it has to do with a military situation in Iraq or Afganistan. Expand your definition. What kills more Americans than anything else? Smoking. Take health as a whole and the damage on this battlefield kills more Americans and threatens our families and social fabric because of cancers, toxins and poisonous gases. All of these maladies are provided by corporations with the approval of the government. War zone?

What causes the greatest theft of wealth from Americans? Central bank debt practices and the creation of debt for interest payments for the big banks. Manipulations in the markets through the dispersal of privledged information and protection by laws written expressly to protect the banks practices. The list is legion. War zone?

If you study history, you will see we are not having a new society imposed upon us. It is the same one over and over with a different title. The degree of liberty may wax, but it will always wane. This is the nature of government- it conducts war through every means possible against all people- even its' own. 

We are in a war zone, all of us, and we will remain so until we give up on the oppression and totalitarian dictatorship of government. Anarchy is a choice, I am always open to another ideas, but failed systems are a waste of time, people and resources.

Good Luck!

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:26 | Link to Comment 11b40
11b40's picture

Anyone know how to delete a pre-mature posting?

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 14:27 | Link to Comment Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Think about baseball...

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:24 | Link to Comment 11b40
11b40's picture

Sorry for double post.  Don't even know how it happened & didn't even get stopped out by captcha.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:38 | Link to Comment aerojet
aerojet's picture

If it was a workable system, it would be up and running somewhere.  It isn't because it only works on a micro-to-small scale.  As soon as you have a few hundred thousands people, all with competing interests, you end up on the road to hardline fascism or whatever "strongman" regime you like.  It's human nature--brutality is the only system that can keep millions of ignorant people in line.  And no, human beings will never achieve any baseline of education or intelligence.  There will always be the bell curve, always be the idiots who have no clue they are being taken advantage of.  And thus, no real hope for the human race.  Maybe technology could someday break the cycle--those who are less intelligent could be looked after 24/7 by others in their community so that they don't fall victim to the miscreant "leaders" of the world.  And maybe someday we could identify these megalomaniacs who want to control and rule and understand that they are mentally ill and stop them from doing so much harm. 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 13:45 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Quite an assumption. The system has it's enemies- especially the government. Worse, you would choose to do nothing and accept the status quo of debt slavery and crony capitalism/bankster monopoly because someone doesn't have a perfect running system up somewhere. 

There is no proof that a strongman can overwhelm a free market private property system of anarchy. That is just lazy thinking and defeatism.

The Founding Fathers didn't have a working model either, but that didn't stop them from trying something new. 

Until we begin to accept that the current situation is untenable and requires something beyond the expression of police power in a single entity controlled by a small elite, our future is worthless. 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 22:23 | Link to Comment ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

Whatever. I'm short ERU/USD and I've covered my ass. I will not be a victim of the 'squeeze'. The fuckers can push to 1.46 if it gets them hard. I really don't give a fuck at this point. I went short USD and EUR to the frankster weeks ago.

This is a conviction market.

Listen to that voice (with wide stops).

 

 

 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 13:44 | Link to Comment cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

reminds me of Jon Stewart's guest the other night who wrote a book about psycho-paths. he maintains a high % of CEO's & etc. are clinically psychopathic

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 10:21 | Link to Comment ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

It sure as hell won't be socialism/communism both of which invariably unmask to reveal the lie that life would surely be made fair and easy. I strongly disagree with your swipe at citizens united. The potential solution, in my view, does not include less freedom of speech for ANY entity.

The Hegelian dialectic has been quite well employed against us for decades. You mention "supply side, trickle down" economics and seem dismissive of natural laws? I would counter that the mess we are in today is due primarily to the distortion and perversion of natural laws. Bill fucking Clinton signed off on NAFTA and repealed Glass Steagall and yet is considered the gold standard of recent presidents? WTF??

I've got a solution for you........Collapse followed by a 'reset' (yes, the allusion is to the current gang of asshats and their ridiculous ploy to deceive the American people into believing that a new sheriff is in town, specifically regarding  the soviet union..er sorry, I mean Russia).

A 'reset' to OUR CONSTITUTION would be the solution. Ending the FED ought to include the Federal government. A return to local control, States rights, individual liberty. The debate over the scope of Federal control was lost and now here we are.

What a fucking mess.

The solution is to return to the beggining and this time, take the other path.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 12:35 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Sound's like you are advocating Communism.....

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 19:47 | Link to Comment ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

No, I advocate for 'radical' Conservatism. Conservatism that respects natural law. Natural law in my view is basically individual human nature. Conservatism that places the greatest amount of power at the family level, with families projecting out to a community that ultimately determines the governance of a State.

If you want 'communism' in your family or small group then fine. It can actually work that way because of the intimacy of the relationships. Communism/socialism/progressivism is NOT scalable however without dispassionate cruelty. The violation of natural law is in the raping of Liberty.

When the blah, blah, blah of leftist ideology hits the streets it has always, and always will require that Liberty be violated.

It really boils down to a Zoo VS. Jungle argument (and amusingly enough, the Left has a serious problem with animals being in cages, but clearly prefers for humans to caged) Odd? Not really.

The left is a disease.

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 13:00 | Link to Comment Rhodin
Rhodin's picture

The "left" and the "right" are just the two wings of the same vulture.  With "left" the government eats you, With "right" the corporations do (with government as jackal).  Either way you are part of the beast or lunch.

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 16:10 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

*cough*

for the record, vultures are not predators, they don't take down live, healthy prey - vultures are carrion eaters, they eat the putrefied carcass that would kill other creatures, and are uniquely designed for their place in nature.

jackals, hyenas, pack canines, etc. - perhaps a better analogy.

definitely agree with the "left/right analogy" being distractions when thinking of governing rulership - again, a better analogy would be top/down, and the visceral recognition that none of us are in the "top" tier.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:17 | Link to Comment legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

I would like to barter with the brunette in the Utube video, I guess that is why it is the oldest profession.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:39 | Link to Comment aerojet
aerojet's picture

You got junked, but that was the first thing I thought when I saw the video.  I was  said to myself "she's bartering with the wrong  goods."

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:25 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Commerce is the lifeblood of a nation

 

You mean that yuppies using credit cards enthusiastically to buy foreign goods isn't a viable, long term solution?

We're supposed to consume not produce, dammit! And we do it well: till we drop, in fact. 

You'll have to take our credit cards from out of our cold dead hands! 

When the going gets tough? The tough go on a credit card splurge!

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:30 | Link to Comment buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

yen dollar parity bitchez!

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 19:24 | Link to Comment AccreditedEYE
AccreditedEYE's picture

+1 LOL!

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 10:19 | Link to Comment NoClueSneaker
NoClueSneaker's picture

+1

tech K.O. Thx :-P

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:28 | Link to Comment InconvenientCou...
InconvenientCounterParty's picture

"7) I don’t know if you have noticed, but the world seems to be going loony tunes lately."

Yea, I've noticed.

I've also noticed that reading ZH frequently leads to "the noticing" all sorts of things that I never noticed before.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:38 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

"7) I don’t know if you have noticed, but the world seems to be going loony tunes lately.

 

Loony or just mad? 

There's a sea change happening out there just over the horizon. The globalist economic system is going through death convulsions. 

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:42 | Link to Comment cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Looney, or mad, or just incoherent?

Have you ever seen a chicken running around just after it's head has been chopped off? I have. You can see that the animal is in the middle of a transition from an initial "head attached and mostly functioning" and into "head is now gone." It takes a while, interestingly enough, and the body is able to do things for a few seconds. There is a lot of random nonsense though, just like now.

I think the world has lost its head. Literally. And the randomness is the flopping around.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 23:15 | Link to Comment zhandax
zhandax's picture

I would love to think that the random flopping around is the death throes of the globalist economic system, but cynically I fear it is something we value a bit more.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 23:45 | Link to Comment geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Great metaphor. I've seen the same thing many times.

What worries me is how long things can keep going, even without a head. To complete the metaphor, see Mike the headless chicken's story at

http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.php

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:47 | Link to Comment aerojet
aerojet's picture

It's a shitty metaphor because unlike a chicken, the world can run just fine without any central control.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 03:39 | Link to Comment tired1
tired1's picture

can someone explain how to post images ?

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 06:25 | Link to Comment Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

1. Write a brilliant and insightful financial story.

2. Submit it to ZH for review.

3. If accepted, you now have contributor status and may post pictures.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 06:33 | Link to Comment Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

That powers that be want to be and not have to not be.

That powers that become want to become.

To be and risk not being or to become that is the question

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The rocks and molatov cocktails of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of rioters,
And by opposing end them? To die, to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation

In sleep and wake the beds are made the sheets are folded.

What is not becoming to the citizenry must give up being and venture toward becoming.

Or risk disruption of the sleep and wakeful cycle. To die in the bed and shit the bed and make further intimacy a rather pervese and disgusting process.

Hephasteus's Hamlet Wanger 2011

Next volume. Rapio and Juliette, an IMF love story.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:30 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

+1 skull of Yorick

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 10:54 | Link to Comment Widowmaker
Widowmaker's picture

I wonder if you know how right you are.

Money is dying, and with it the wealth of nations.

Thank too big to fail riddled with fraud ponzinomics that don't feed familys.

Government never gives, it only takes.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:46 | Link to Comment aerojet
aerojet's picture

Compared to when?  The world has *always* been in a state of upheaval.  If you compared now to say, right before WWI, I think you would disagree with that statement. 

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:38 | Link to Comment fairlynumm
fairlynumm's picture

+1

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:35 | Link to Comment Josh Randall
Josh Randall's picture

My @ss - it's ot Alterative markets it's the old fundamentals of having a mfg base again, an educated workforce and a currency based upon something other than toilet paper.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 23:13 | Link to Comment Tedster
Tedster's picture

Read somewhere after the (second) world war, there were signs posted everywhere in german factories that said "export or die", and it was this sentiment that drove the miracle of renewing their economy. They went through several currency crises, the Weimar period being just one. Those calling for a gold standard or "backed" monetary standard are missing the point or putting the cart before the horse - it isn't gold per se that makes a country wealthy or prosperous but an economy with a favorable balance of trade. That is America has to produce goods and sevices that others wish to buy, and in numbers that exceed our imports. It may well be not much more complicated than that. As it stands now, any monetary gold would simply leave the country to settle trade imbalances, never to return. That's how it works. That's how it's always worked. So we're not breaking any new ground here, and the de-industrialization of the U.S. is cast in in a different light when viewed that way. The destruction of the basic family unit, social mores, religious values and replacement by cultural marxism is deliberate and carefully tailored to create maximum damage. The money problem is just part of it.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 23:48 | Link to Comment Scisco
Scisco's picture

I am assuming by favourable trade you mean a trade imbalance. An imbalance mathematically must correct at some point. Either the debtor or the creditor must eventually take a loss.
The problem with fiat is that it allows the clearing of a trade to be postponed. Gold forces the clearing of the debt sooner and it exposes when a counter party cannot pay quicker. As for gold leaving a country and never returning, it means that the country is not producing anything of value! If it did, it would be able to trade for it.

Championing for a trade imbalance is like supporting accounting fraud. It makes your company seem very healthy and profitable until it blows up spectacularly.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 12:11 | Link to Comment OldTrooper
OldTrooper's picture

a currency based upon something other than toilet paper

Or maybe a real toilet paper-based alternative market:

http://www.homemadetp.com/

Just food for thought...

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:37 | Link to Comment cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

until eventually, you have a network of independent organizations which serve to support each other simply by being independent. It sounds like a contradiction, or perhaps even a paradox, but it is an undeniable model.

Not surprising at all, that was the model for the European "dark ages" in the time between the fall of Rome and the emergent Middle Ages.

History rulez, bitchez. Time to get Medieval.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 21:44 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

beginning to think that the Dark Ages weren't as dark as we were meant to believe.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:44 | Link to Comment I_ate_the_crow
I_ate_the_crow's picture

About 25 million people, one third of the population of Europe, was killed by the Bubonic Plauge. Shit was dark.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 19:10 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

in that part of the World, you are correct.   just so happens that's also the part of the World that wrote the History Books.   Coincidence?

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 16:23 | Link to Comment Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

resonance.

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 13:56 | Link to Comment Rhodin
Rhodin's picture

Still looks pretty dark to me.  Glimmers of light here and there, maybe we find our way out, or not. It's been dark longer than we have history, the "golden age" is so long gone as to be a myth.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:40 | Link to Comment Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

Working on an alternative...

www.blackmarketdata.com

nicer name will be www.globalfreemarkets.com

Re-wrote the interface, writing some of the backend..

and updated the survey system (a place to submit local pricing)..

Already have a design for bartering system.

edit: I haven't posted the re-write yet.. still working on stuff. Soon though.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:50 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Interesting.

(of course the IRS will likely think so as well)

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:54 | Link to Comment Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

can't prove who traded what from a computer screen. And encrypted transmissions... puts a kink in the no knock shit.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 19:04 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

So, this an actual trading platform, not just a price quote/discovery tool?

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 19:23 | Link to Comment Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

It's currently a price/qt discovery tool. There is not much demand for a trading platform yet. The barter system will be a steptowards a trading platform. I may start with commodities like cannabis since it is becoming more popular with the medpot movement. And that's if demand is there..

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 04:20 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

I recommend at least 256-bit keys (Public/Private, like PGP)

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:01 | Link to Comment Angelic Upstart
Angelic Upstart's picture

Unles the PTB have quantum computers hidden away that can crack these keys in seconds.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:53 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

Well done!!!

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:59 | Link to Comment Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

Thank you.. my first php site.. and hack a design. ugh!

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 20:13 | Link to Comment JohnG
JohnG's picture
<!-- <div> <INPUT id=rdoCorFac type=radio name="corfac" value="true"> <small>Correctional Facility</small></FONT>

CUTE.
Fri, 05/27/2011 - 21:30 | Link to Comment indio007
indio007's picture

No Sour Diesel? WTF!

Otherwise great site.

On a side note , barter exchange is taxable when there is a middleman or you declare a "market value".

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 04:25 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

The "tax man" is gonna have a hard time if transactions are encrypted.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 06:19 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Not if they seize the servers that host the system.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:35 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

not if the daily-updated encrypted database was shared over bit torrent.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:01 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

How does bit torrent protect the data if the administrator is seized along with his computer?  Or is this why I don't install that sort of software on my computers?

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 19:18 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

ah, nice one, i see you're looking 3 steps ahead.   you're saying if the server is seized w/o warning and a virus is sent out before the info spreads across the net re: the server raid?

if so, as long as the net is up, how long do you think it will take before everyone who wants to know knows that the admin got raided?   how long did it take for us to see the images from barcelona yesterday?

it is definitely good to build buffers though.   how about distribute the risk :  i download mondays, u download fridays, she downloads sundays?   that way, one could always backtrack when the last good copy was sent and that's your balance.  take the haircut immediately and move on...like iceland.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 12:51 | Link to Comment Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

Transactions would be impossible to prove. You may get an ip address, but you can't prove who was behind the ip. Also, there are a number of anon proxies.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 12:58 | Link to Comment Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

Lol,Thanks. actually there is a way to add your own items. I think I disabled it though. Concerns about miscategorizing. I'll most likely bring it back... I figured I'd sweep any items
that don't get quoted much..

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:42 | Link to Comment Jason T
Jason T's picture

Ithaca NY has it's own currency..Ithaca Hours.  Had them since 1991.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 20:37 | Link to Comment g
g's picture

Yeah and its worthless for buying anything that you really need. I lived in Ithaca, and those Ithaca Hours are nothing to model anything else by, they are just a trendy plaything that is not widely adopted or credible.

 

Lame.

 

What we need is something real, backed by individuals, businesses, and communities modeled in much the same way as the author of the article stated. I am all for localized centers of commerce for exchange and local currencies.

 

I will actually be in Ithaca this weekend, I will check on the status of the Ithaca Hour, and post what I observe here. Perhaps its status has changed, though I doubt it.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 04:03 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

please do...curious

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 04:23 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:11 | Link to Comment g
g's picture

I have been following bitcoin for a little while now, waiting to see how it evolves.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 08:25 | Link to Comment Jason T
Jason T's picture

I live about 5 miles south of Ithaca and well yeah, they are not that popular..I don't have any yet but am gearing up to get on the board of the currency there and make it better. The concept is right.  Needs someone like me to fire it up.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:12 | Link to Comment g
g's picture

I will get a couple of Ithaca Hours this weekend, scan it, and post it here so you guys can see it. When I lived in Ithaca (some time ago, although I do frequently visit people I know in Ithaca) it was a photocopied piece of yellow paper. I will also try to get a sense of what people think of it, whether it is viable versus a trendy coupon, and how many shop owners honor it. For example whether I could walk in with several hundred and buy things like iPods.

 

@Jason, motivated people are always needed to 'fire it up', keep us posted as to your progress, I would help you out there, but I now live a few hours from Ithaca, I visit Ithaca once every month or two.

 

On a side note: Ithaca sure is beautiful, you can walk on block in any direction and arrive at a creek, the lake, or a state park, that part is truly magnificent. I don't like the politics or the attitude there however. Ithaca has to great schools and fine dining.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:50 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

Agorists and crypto-anarchists have been doing this for a while.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:11 | Link to Comment Imminent Collapse
Imminent Collapse's picture

Check out Cryptonomicon by Neil Stephenson - great book which describes a possibility for coming currency much like you suggest baboonface.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 13:19 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

That's APEface to you!

 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 13:50 | Link to Comment cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

Mister APEface....

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:55 | Link to Comment Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

if you listen closely to the Argentina collapse, it was the public workers who didnt have any backup plans when they lost theit jobs......pay attention public workers at the trough, the gravy train has ended

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 14:19 | Link to Comment Rhodin
Rhodin's picture

Public workers "at the trough",  ie. those with no-show or seldom-show high pay jobs, usually do just fine, especially if they own a business that their workers must patronise to get promotions and raises.  Overpaid full time (& full time + mega OT) public workers will do ok if they learned to save and pay down debt.  However those public workers working full hours for low or moderate pay will be truly screwed when their jobs and pensions disappear. 

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 18:57 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

My alternative market plan locally is to replace the dollar with "junk silver" coins. Obviously, it will take more than just myself, and obviously, very few others are buying them, given that junk silver sells right at spot in most cases, if not lower (Tulving is currently offering at -$0.15).

I find this to be the one of the easiest "moving away from the dollar" transitions I can imagine, since they are widely recognized and still legal tender.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 21:57 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 You are a good poster (Tornado). I should give you more credo.. aka N.A. Thanks.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 04:25 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

I can foresee a massive re-education effort coming up in weights & measures, Fiat vs. REAL Money, etc.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 19:14 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Treque putaz!

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 19:25 | Link to Comment SwingForce
SwingForce's picture

And what exactly does this say about the people who have no money? Nothing. It 100% BULLSHIT and "SCARY STORIES" for all you folks that still have assets. You watch the rioters overseas, that's my friends- no assets. There's no truth here, only 1 contributor wanting points, and 1 host who will take every Google credit he can get, and hopefully AOL will pump him up. Goodbye cruel friends, goodbye.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 23:31 | Link to Comment CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

You blathering milksop. Get enough $$$ together to get a weapon and ammo. Beg, borrow, or steal to get the $$$. After the crash, there will be huge DEMAND for people who can provide local security. Then you'll actually have a job.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 07:11 | Link to Comment downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

When the shit goes down, the people providing security from the bandits and thieves won't be excited about doing so for long.

In fact, they might just as well be charged with stringing the same-said brigands up from a yard-arm.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:49 | Link to Comment cowdiddly
cowdiddly's picture

And get paid in a currency nobody wants.  I figure there will be so many people packin that you are not going to have much of an advantage. Its not like the movies, in a real gunfight everyone gets hit. 

If you have all polled cattle(no horns) and you pour a bag of feed in the trough you witness a giant shoving match as the more dominate cattle in the pecking order try to push the weaker ones away to get an extra bite. If all the cattle have horns and you pour out the same bag of feed you wil witness the most orderly feeding imaginable. You see when every one is armed, all bullshit stops because the petty bullshit is not worth the result.

This may be why we are not raising as much hell in America as we should be like the rest of the world. The results here could get far uglier and with this comes a responsibility to weigh both the reasons and the outcomes carefully before action. Kinda like a Nuclear Nation. This is the part that the gun control freaks dont get. Our second Amendment rights make us more stable. Our founding fathers were not as stupid as Hillary would lead you to believe.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 13:36 | Link to Comment downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Funny:  I just went to the farmer's market, and people accepted my dollars.

Amazing.  

Don't pretend that your pretend world is real.  It isn't.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 16:51 | Link to Comment cowdiddly
cowdiddly's picture

I live in a world that is more real and dependable than yours will ever become; I don't pretend. Everybody on the planet knows the dollars days are numbered. Keep saving them up and running down to your bank and depositing them for a net negative return I could care less. You are fixing to learn that your whole life revolves around pretend money. Don't pretend that you are intelligent. You're not, and you would not know a farmer if he bit you in the ass.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 11:13 | Link to Comment knowless
knowless's picture

while i understand you, i disagree. what it says to people that don't have money, is soon enough that shit isn't gonna matter, and you'll be living in a working mans world once again. no more sitting on your ass. your "scary stories for people who have money" theory that you keep interjecting is counterproductive.

many people are going to die soon, and even with "no money", i'm sure there is something you can do to at least educate yourself in a skill that can be bartered in exchange for necessities.

and guess what buddy, your survival isn't anyones duty but your own, if you can't barter honestly with other people, they have no obligation to save your ass.

 

also, the names of the people who contribute the articles are generally right at the top of the article.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 19:56 | Link to Comment Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

This end of the world stuff really sells.  However, bankrupt governments are not new to the world and many countries worked through the issue and prospered after it.  Lets not get too crazy here.

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 20:53 | Link to Comment silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

Those governments and countries from the past had something to work with..We have a bunch of worthless ass, lazy ass, over medicated ,spoiled ass , me first, Its my world everyone else just lives in it, I stand for nothing motherfuckers to work with now..We dont have a fuckin prayer..

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 06:22 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

So there will be plenty of demand for undertakers and shovels.  The hard part will be convincing the worthless ass, lazy ass, over medicated ,spoiled ass , me first crowd to dig, since it is actually hard work. 

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 14:40 | Link to Comment Rhodin
Rhodin's picture

Mostly, it will be them being buried, until we run out of deisel for the excavators.  Maybe we put them up for the birds after that.

Don't get me wrong, many will try to change and fail.  If someone has been flying a desk(cubicle) for 15-30, it's kinda hard to switch to manual labor.  More than half who try it will either suffer stroke, heart attack etc. and/or give up.

That reminds me, got another cord of wood to put up today; later.

 

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 07:15 | Link to Comment downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

This may characterize the circle in which you run.  It MOST CERTAINLY describes, with precision and accuracy, the world inhabited by Banker-Gangsters.

But there are REAL people who do REAL work for a living.  And when the scales fall away from their eyes, they're perfectly capable.  

Unlike the Banker-Gangsters, whose chief concern will be getting groceries delivered to their overpriced bunker without Fresh Direct.

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 09:05 | Link to Comment UGrev
UGrev's picture

Yeah, but the internet is the biggest bucket of pop-corn EVAR! :D

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 20:34 | Link to Comment tom a taxpayer
tom a taxpayer's picture

"All is rigid and fragile. There is no backup plan." Is that what DSK said to the maid?

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!