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Guest Post: China's Naval Ambitions Spur New Regional Strategic Planning
Submitted by Global Intelligence Report
China's Naval Ambitions Spur New Regional Strategic Planning
SITUATION: Defense planning efforts in East Asia have been markedly influenced by China's bellicose response to the detention of a Chinese fisherman for ramming a Japanese naval boat in disputed waters.
ANALYSIS: The detention generated vituperative reactions from Beijing, out of character from its traditional policy of quiet insistence on territorial claims while building naval capacity. This episode, in conjunction with China's continuing claim of primacy in the South China Sea as a 'core interest', is encouraging increased discussion among its regional neighbors regarding naval collaboration.
Territorial Claims: Sino-Japanese tensions regarding the detention were inflamed by the location of the incident. The Diaoyu/Senkaku islands, situated in the East China Sea, are believed to be rich in oil and gas reserves and fish stocks. The islands are also close to important sea lanes. China, Japan, and Taiwan each claim sovereignty over the islands. After the release of the captain of the Chinese fishing boat on September 24, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao told Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan that "the Diaoyu Islands have been Chinese territory since ancient times".
A similarly robust claim is being made for the South China Sea, which borders Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore, and Vietnam among other states. A group of nine Vietnamese fishermen operating off the Paracel Islands in the South China Sea were detained by Beijing for four weeks. The fishermen were released on October 11, as the unresolved issue threatened to overshadow the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Defense Ministers summit.
Regional Views: The inaugural ASEAN Defense Ministers '+ 8' Meeting, hosted by Hanoi on October 12 indirectly responded to Chinese naval aspirations. The summit was characterized by the ASEAN style of private consensual dialogue, rather than attempts to seek immediate conflict resolution. Attendees included the 10 ASEAN states, plus America, Australia, China, India, Japan, New Zealand, Russia, and South Korea. By involving these regional interlocutors, the new forum intends to inculcate a regional security approach that would seek to incorporate Chinese power projection within a cooperative security structure. This perspective was illustrated by the official summit theme of 'Strategic Cooperation for Peace, Stability and Regional Development'.
Meeting before the summit, US Defense Secretary Gates and Vietnamese Defense Minister Phung Quang Thanh sought to improve their bilateral relationship and increase maritime security cooperation. Indonesia, South Korea, and the Philippines are also stepping up naval cooperation efforts with America. While in Hanoi, Gates implicitly referred to China's claim to the South China Sea in public remarks, specifying that 'the US and Vietnam, as well as other nations in the region, share a common interest in maritime security and freedom of access to the global commons.
India in particular is seeking to actively curtail Chinese naval aspirations. New Delhi sees Beijing's present interest in the South China Sea as merely a first step toward greater designs upon the Indian Ocean. New Delhi established the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium in 2008, which intends to enhance maritime security cooperation among member states. Over 25 states attended the inaugural meeting. Requests from China to attend, even as an observer state, were refused. Bilateral defense talks between New Delhi and Hanoi, concluded on October 14, also resulted in agreement for India to assist Vietnamese naval modernization.
New Naval Technologies: China is investing heavily in naval development to buttress its territorial claims. Its emerging Jin-class nuclear-armed submarine fleet is stationed on Hainan Island in the South China Sea. Regional uncertainty regarding its patrol routes further exacerbate tensions surrounding Chinese naval ambitions.
China is believed to be developing its first indigenous aircraft carrier. A Chinese newspaper editorial in March prepared the ground for its introduction by recalling the soothing cooperative language of ASEAN joint statements: "The Chinese navy equipped with aircraft carriers and other advanced weaponry would be able to better help maintain regional stability and world peace." It is difficult to find such a justification for Beijing's anti-ship ballistic missile program, overtly intended to block American access to contested naval zones, such as the Taiwan Strait, in the event of a conflict. Beijing is fielding new military frigates and destroyers designed to launch such missiles.
BOTTOM LINE: The Sino-Japanese fisherman episode has served to promote increased regional defense collaboration efforts. These intend to hedge against the possibility that China will seek to support territorial claims in such an aggressive manner again. The dispute, and the corollary Chinese detention of Vietnamese fishermen, served as the backdrop to the inaugural ASEAN Defense Ministers '+8' Meeting. In its intention to develop a cooperative regional security structure involving America, India, Japan, and South Korea among other powers, the new forum seeks to minimize diplomatic room for China to dictate the terms of its rise to neighbors on a strict bilateral 'divide-and-conquer' basis.
Moves from several summit member states to improve naval collaboration with America illustrates the extent to which the US Pacific Fleet plays an indispensable role as the backstop of regional security. These new defense cooperation efforts should suggest to China's leaders that multilateral confidence-building, rather than aggressive brinkmanship, represents a better way to advance its regional interests.
Source: http://www.globalintelligencereport.com/articles/chinas-naval-ambitions-spur-new-regional-strategic-planning
By. Jen Alic of the Global Intelligence Report
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Yes TD, so why does one need a Navy? For looks, I think not.
How, exactly, does the US fit into this region (apart from militarily occupying South Korea and part of Japan)?
Guam - A US territory, with a $US 13 billion 40K troop buildup underway
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/24/AR200801...
Pearl Harbour II?
OOOOH, booogyman China
China defense budget US$77.95 billion
America defense budget US$685.1 billion
The theatres of war will be the middle east, via Israel, and Eastasia, via Japan, Vietnam, and Australia.
Do you realize how far away this is from the United States? Do you know what supply lines are?
Do you realize how far these theatres are from China?
Americans are terrible at thinking outside of the "US" versus "them" mentality. Always in the box. Pathetic; this is what this country has deteriorated into? I cannot believe that at one time, I loved America . . .
I used to love America, because we would travel around the world to get in a war.
That's exactly what America is doing right now, moron. Do you know what Pafghanistan is?
America is FORCED to travel around the world to get in a war; it is surrounded by subservient allies. This is the reason for the US's naval might (in contrast to the FSU, which developed a mighty land military capacity).
You obviously don't see the drawbacks of being forced to maintain such a strong military presence on a worldwide scale, yet the results are obvious; you are reading about them on this very website. You are a cretin, a typical American. Your logic is faulty, and worse, you lack imagination and critical thinking capabilities.
Pathetic. Yes, the United States is the greatest that ever was, and greatest that ever will be. Nothing can change this. You are so correct, you have convinced me!
If you fuck with us, we will indeed come to your house and kick you in the teeth.
We are rather proud of it, in fact.
The USN is the undisputed lord of its domain. In case you are slow, that is about 70% of the Earth's surface.
I don't really care about "is." I care about "will."
After all, my name is Will, and you are a fucking moron who I destroyed intellectually in a past thread. Please stop posting, your idiocy is an embarrassing stain on this fine website. Take your US vs them mentality elsewhere, dimwit.
Must be nice, fuzzy and warm in whatever reality you call home.
by Rodent Freikorps
on Tue, 10/12/2010 - 10:21
#643582
Once you label all jews as evil, I am not interested in an exchange of ideas with you.
All you'll get is my contempt.
by thefatasswilly
on Tue, 10/12/2010 - 21:27
#645362
When the fuck did I label all jews as evil?
Holy fucking shit, you are so fucking retarded it's ridiculous at this point.
"Not all jews are owners, but all the owners are jews." - Henry Ford
Also, notice how I used quotes around "good" and "evil." They are the same thing; like I said, read a fucking book, you fucking dimwitted imbecile.
Now shut the fuck up.
- edit
- reply
- flag as junk (0)
Also, I have noted that my reality is gloomy and dark in a post earlier on this page. Your logic and critical thinking capabilities are sorely lacking. Seriously, shut the fuck up, you are destroying the intellect of everyone who is forced to read your dumb bullshit.I guess you missed the part where Chinese subs are now able to strike US vessels at will.
http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=4647
Or the part where a single South African sub knocked out the NATO fleet in a war game: http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=4379
The US navy has lost its pre-eminence, and is now a mere paper tiger, and most everyone, save perhaps for the Americans, knows it.
There is a difference between detected, and fired on. I'm happy y'all think so highly of chinese subs.
Don't any of you remember the cold war? Let them believe what they want to believe. When hostilities begin, they will know our true capabilities.
Winning is the only thing.
wartime ASW is totally different from peacetime.
These subs will be detected and sank in war.
Tonight's tune for you.
The Warrior Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTs6a0ORdQU
That just fucking gives me wood.
"China defense budget US$77.95 billion
America defense budget US$685.1 billion"
Well, since China has no problem producing consumer goods at 1/10th our cost, I imagine it is much the same for their military expenses. I wouldn't assume that disparity in money spent means a similar disparity in weaponry... at least not for long.
Maybe the Chinese don't 'lose' trillions of dollars that flow thru the Department of War...I mean Defense. No, on second thought, I was right the first time.
+10!
but how effective is each budget? I doubt the Chinese have any need to pad their fat cat pensions and over pay for bombs just to suck money out of their taxpayers
The only countries near China's perimeter which are not under its control are Vietnam and South Corea (the entire Indochinese peninsula, besides the aforementioned Vietnam, and Indonesia, are already enslaved via the economic preponderance of Chinese living in the peninsula. This method of slavery is quite similar to the method the Jews employ in the West). In addition to this, Siberia, which is larger than the previously mentioned Asian countries combined, begs for Chinese colonization the way my dog begs for bacon, for obvious reasons.
In my humble opinion, the monkey islanders are quite are safe from Chinese military aggression, but, as evidenced in recent history, these primates are quite susceptible to economic warfare.
Anyways, the PRC and PLA / PLAN will fight launch a surprise attack on Ha Noi, during, of course, loving expressions of peace towards the Vietnamese while the 1,000,000+ army of North Corea marches into a Seoul which has been decimated by artillery which are pointed at the South Corean capital at this very moment.
All the while, hordes of Chinese adventures partake in an "Oregon Trail" style journey into the Siberian wilderness.
In addition to this, India's huge, inefficient bureaucracy renders it ripe for rape.
Exciting times for members of the master race :)
The main contingencies for the PRC to consider are the Pentagon and the Bear.
"South Corea", come on rice bowl. Seriously????
Thank you for proving your ignorance.
Japan dictated that Corea change its name to Korea, because those fucking monkeys didn't want Corea coming before Japan in the alphabet.
I tend to disagree with monkeys. Another example is the case of the East Sea, but I'm quite positive that you are unaware of that controversy. Idiot.
"those fucking monkeys" Yep I'm the idiot.
LOL. Yes, you are, because you are now equating "idiocy" with "racism."
Your dimwitted American mind is unable to see outside of the black / white, right / wrong, bad / good mentality. The "US" versus "them" mentality dominates your life.
Do you know what the Roman Empire, the Chinese Empires, and the past American Empire had in common? Of course you don't. Moron.
AHAHAHahahahaha. Where are you at?
SloSquez
thefatasswilly
Fucking morons! KOREA!
How many people read the multiple mistakes and refused to correct it?
Where the fuck is the milk of human kindness?
at a lucious DD. I don't know how to answer that.
I dont think they spell their county with English letters. They are Korean and Japanese, after all.
Monkey Islanders? Jews enslaving the west? I'd like to meet you in a crowd in daylight asshole, so everyone could watch this American kick your bigoted ass...you are an absolute delusional loser.
Your name is "eatthebanksters." Have you not yet realized that the banksters are all Jews? Obviously not. Educate yourself before spewing your ignorance into a public forum.
Funny, I picked the name of the CEO of the first bank that popped into my head, and found That is was John Stumpf, which is a German last name.
In fact, it looks like they don't have a single Jewish person listed among their Executive Officers. Go ahead and have a look: https://www.wellsfargo.com/about/corporate/executive_officers/
As such, your assertion that all banksters are Jews is patently false. Indeed, said assertion is beyond groundless, to the point of purposeful discreditation of anyone who dislikes the banks. You are either a fool or a charlatan. Either way, you should be silent.
I admit that my word choice was poor.
However, the CEO's of the banks that actually matter, ie JPM, BAC, GS, and Citi are all Jewish.
As such, my assertion is far from "beyond groundless," as you claim. Proclaiming that I should be silent, that I am a fool and a charlatan, because of a simple mistake in diction, proves, in fact, that YOU are the fool. Take your shitty logic elsewhere.
BAC Brian Moynihan
Citi Vikram Pandit
Who wudda known? Cleverly disguising themselves as Irish Catholics and Hindus.
Cleverly disguising themselves as Irish Catholics
Well, I once worked with a Jewish guy whose name was Vivien Kelly.
(Never asked "How come?".)
"In addition to this, India's huge, inefficient bureaucracy renders it ripe for rape."
Sad but true. India is an unknown, despite all posturing. Israel is hugely involved in India's defense systems. In fact, they might even be our No. 1 Defense partner! I suppose that should say it all. We went fairly rapidly from being a Soviet Stooge to today.... wagging our tail at our new friend on the block, America.
In fact, India is in a strategic "lock" on all sides by hostile states, direct or otherwise. Even Sri Lanka, whose brutalized military is far more powerful and war ready (they've been sharpening their skills against the tigers for decades).
All in all, a recepie for some Shekinah action. I meant Shock And Awe, sorry.....
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
Oh regional Indian
India is the "after China".
In about twenty years China loses it's edge economically to India.
You fail to see the military aspect.
India will be subservient to China during this economic boom.
Gully, I have to agree with Fatasswilly below.
India is the lost continent, in many more ways than you might imagine.
Reduced to servitude. The Brit-ish made sure they left that stamp hard enough.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
At the moment, China uses Pakistan to draw India's aggro; historically, threats to the great Indian subcontinent have invaded from the flatter northwestern regions, for the Himalayas prove to be a formidable obstacle.
The current idiotic, myopic Indian leaders, in my opinion, are unable to see past this perspective and are thus blind to the Chinese threat.
They are playing checkers with Pakistan, while China is playing chess against Russia, the U.S., and Iran in central Asia, which is rich in geostrategic possibility (in chess, control of the four middle spaces are crucial to total board control, and thus, eventual victory) and oil . . .
Konyechna tovaritch ...
This all boils down to who wins the CV race between the two nations.
And your statement about myopia is inaccurate.
Too bad you sell your country short. India's fighter pilots, in skills and tactics, are considered amongst the best---maybe even THE best---in the world. Six or seven years ago the US and India held a joint exercise and mock air combat. India won, despite the US using battle-trained pilots. China's former best pilot stalled his jet fighter while bird dogging a US E3 several years ago and crashed.
As for the country itself, I cannot help but think that if any country is going to lead the world out of this current depression, it will be India rather than China that does it. China has already built so much infrastructure and cities that they even have spares. India has all that growth ahead of it, has a younger population, has leads over China in technologies that matter, and has the democratic framework which in the long run will prove more conducive to entrepreneurship. I do not think it is any surprise that Mumbai equities reached new highs recently while Shanghai remains forty percent below its all time peak, or that India has produced more billionaires and in a wider range of fields than China. Most of China's wealthy are RE magnates; Indians are from steel, telecoms, pharma, transportation, software, etc.
India has the many thousand year history, but unlike China, India has the buildings and culture to prove it. Yes, it's just one man's view, but the food is better, the sights more beautiful, the music infinitely better, and the women.....well, I'd stack Ashwariya Rai against anyone!
Robotrader, perhaps you can post some sights from the Kingfisher Calendar?
Iraq had also the fourth army in the world or something like that.
India is so valuable. They allow to reveal the true nature in here.
They are less credible as pretender than China therefore friendlier.
Because how much China is flawed, they do not have that Dhalit people situation.
So more exactly, thanks to Dhalit people, the bottom line is known. It is all about domination.
People fear a chinese pretention to domination and therefore are led to favour a country like India. Of course, sugar coated with liberty, freedom, truth and justice.
Duplicity is the main legacy of the US.
"China's former best pilot stalled his jet fighter while bird dogging a US E3 several years ago and crashed."
What did you expect? Ever see these people drive?
Chindit, I'm the son of a decorated fighter pilot (IAF) and a 12 year veteran of the Indian Navy as an officer myself. Also served 2 years with the Governor of a huge state. Plus, my eyes are wide open. I know what I'm talking about.
I look around myself everyday and stand by what I said. India is a patsy state. Gone are the things you are speaking about. Or they exist in hidden corners where westernization has not yet invaded.
They got us through the same old tricks, bribery, sex, sports and telly-vision.
Let us see, it's all conjecture at this point, but standing in the belly of the nation and living in it's most hyped city Bangalore, I can tell you, all is not well here nor is it as being portrayed.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
Still doing the caste thing?
Maybe that has some significance.
Another vastly mis-understood stereotype about India, so too long to discuss here.
Suffice to say it's got nothing (or very little) to do with the state the nation is in. It is definitelly used in divide and rule politics, but not everyday life so much..
I was a Brahmin Warrior as was my father. And a "lower" caste woman rules the most populous state in India (and this a significant chunk of the world's population in percentage terms). Just as two small examples of it's meaninglesness and power at the same time.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
Obviously I defer to your expertise and experience. I just see a land with so much potential. How sad it would be to waste it.
It's beyond sad Chindit, but that seems to be the case most everywhere.
Globalization, and not just this avaatar of it, but from the oldest times has been an unmitigated curse on humanity.
Maybe I'll go blog about that!
Where do you call home?
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
Hanging my hat in Burma now, though from the US. Long story. Just passed through your country again for the CWG. Always a sucker for good athletics and good competition, especially on the track. Would that I was still fleet of foot! Delhi never looked better. A few days before the opening things in the village looked bleak, at least in the media, but somebody set things right in a nanosecond. I suspect the athletes went away impressed as can be. Another demonstration of potential. I saw lots of pride, top to bottom. That seems to be the sort of thing a nation can harness for the greater good.
Aha, Burma...mystery to the world. Ang Sang till her song was cut short is about most of us know. That and Teak and Uranium I hear? Something, the Junta has been mollycoddled for too long. What is with that?
And CWG, yeah....fiasco became miraclaso, because a lot of money and threats changed hands. Lots of suppression on what actually went on. But I'm glad it was great ont he surface. India did rock it.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
I wrote at length on India's military capability back when I used to be on TF.
Suffice it to say that the COPE to which you refer had the US F15s at a pronounced tactical disadvantage as the exercise was set up to deny theatre AWACS to the US while India had superior numbers as well as the right to use interlinked Su30MKIs in an AWACS capacity. Essentially, the drill replicated their defense capability to an incoming strike, presumably from either a naval or land-based air asset package. Yes, India won.
More interesting is India's carrier initiatives. They plan to have 2 large boats carrying Mig29Ks in the water in the next few years; if they succeed, they will leapfrog all present navies except the US's and perhaps the French in terms of naval air capabilities.
India and China are positioning for an eventual clash, from my perspective. At present, such an engagement is a stalemate. Neither side has a decisive advantage in force posture.
Thanks for the added flavor. I had a chance to speak with some US military types back then and they had lots of praise for the Indian pilots, rating them superior even to Israelis.
India and China may be a future point of combustion. India has its main focus on Pakistan, but undoubtedly a secondary look toward China. They have watched China surround them by taking ports in both Pakistan and Burma, and beating India to the punch in the resource game. The US, under Obama, has tended towards favoring India. Maybe that is the only one of Obama's policies I like.
Your comment about north korea easily attacking south korea is kind of far fetch. South Korea's military is more advanced the the north. It's military personnel is 700,000 men. It has a reserve force of 4.5 million. It would be very difficult for the north to take seoul becuase (1. it will be a meat grinder and (2. the south has wargamed this scenario some many times they will be ready. North Korea knows it is suicide going to war with the south without China's blessing. North Korea is what Israel is for US,a nuisance. So if they get advanced Chinses weapons then that will change things.But as of today the north stands no chance against south korea. The south learned its lessons from the last conflict.
Your analysis of the relationship between North Corea / China and Israel / USA is flawed, and destroys your entire argument.
North Corea (and Pakistan) is a pawn of China (or maybe rooks?). The USA is a pawn of Israel.
Of course North Korea is getting advanced Chinese weapons. How do you think they learned how to build nukes?
Same way I did. 1980's text book in college level physics courses in practically any part of the western world. It's first year engineering courses...seriously. Information is useful, only if you have the tools to build it.
If China gave north korea the tech, who cares.
Like complaining that they have computers, totally pointless who, what, where and why. It's there and not much to do about it.
If anything China has more to worry about North Korea than South Korea does. Between the two, I don't see them whacking each other other than a savage brother beating, extermination I don't see in the cards.
The idea that the people that supply them food, oil, lumber, resources in general cutting them off would piss them off.
Between India and Pakistan most assume that they are built to do one another in. The reality is they are sitting next to China and it's 5000 years of bad blood. Fuck the jews and arabs, you want to know a long standing border war it's India/Pak(same people btw) versus China. Assume that the countries themselves have just popped up at your peril.
Only reason the Brits got a foot hold in India was because the royality at that time were broke and pricks. Plus the dignitaries of the provinces were bribable. Want to know why the world is in the shape it is. Look at the piece of shit rock next to Ireland to the right.
Actually, that center of power transferred to Israel. Jews run the west nowadays; Rothschilds took over England centuries ago.
"...5000 years of bad blood..." between China and India/Pakistan?
To what wars are you referring?
Weimar Ben Bernanke
I'm a bit confused. Many South Korean films promote unification. Is this war footing thing relatively new? It seems the SK public want to rejoin their families.
Well they both want unification. However the souths military is there to prepare if anything happens. They have a true defensive military strategy. They will not go to war unless attacked. Unlike ours that want to go around the world and play globocop and build a military base. If Korea was a united nation they would be a powerful nation and be a thorn on China's side literally.
if the 1st strike w/ artillery is massive , very massive, it will be all over in minutes. Consider time and motion and sheer volume of missiles. it will be a crushing blow. It takes time to reply, no matter how large the army, the missiles will do most fighting.
Personalities who anger easily need maturing.Have a beer
Looks like we need to Stimulate our military budget. /sarc
Amusingly, your sarcasm will become reality when Petraeus takes office in 2013 :)
Equally unexpected things have happened before. I'm wondering if I will recognize the world that faces me in 2 years.
A strongman who is good lookin' and smart to step in and save us all . . . hope it doesn't come to that.
But you can see that we would find little about which to agree.
I actually used to hope, as you do, that it wouldn't come to that. The prospects of my personal fate in the face of upcoming war are glooming indeed.
However, I have long since concluded that it is inevitable. Better to take pleasure in reality, however shitty it is, than suffer from it.
"the mind is its own place, and in it self
can make a heav'n of hell, and a hell of heav'n"
Chickenhawks like you got us into this mess
All liberal democracies lead to dictatorship. Always have. Always will.
You should make peace with that.
LOL:
"Moves from several summit member states to improve naval collaboration with America illustrates the extent to which the US Pacific Fleet plays an indispensable role as the backstop of regional security"
Gosh what would the world do without the US military? What a great reason to spend more money on useless instruments of death er, I mean, protection.
Spoken like a true moron. Carry on soldier...lets send them flowers. Al Gore 4eva.
Right because the issue is always binary. There's a problem? Duuuhhh, send in (more) guns!
Guns, naaaa. Just sit back and watch. I know, sell them CDS's on the MBS's leveraged with Swaptions.
Not like you're doing anything right now.
Get your ass in gear snowflake. how's life otherwise?
If only you knew...
no worries, I hope the wine and women are good. Things are crappy all over for people. Best to do something about it locally because in a couple of years I can promise that it'll be a major focus.
Somehow I doubt the banks problems now will mean that much or how China is throwing money down a rathole in known exploration. We all have things to prepare for to help ourselves and our own. The idea that China is looking to expand is the usual Keynesian crap of nine women can have a baby in a month routine. Typical supply side garbage.
The Chinese can barely hold a city together with quality imported goods, they are struggling to make their own food without paying a premium on the 1 billion plus people they have to avoid killing every last party member. China is hosed much like the western boomers, screwed by their own success of living so long and by so many mouths to feed and asses to wipe.
Ya, but you have to be careful with what you define as living.
Living is what you want to make of it really. For some it requires a leased bmw, for others it's puttering in a garden. Between the two, the slow, mangling/hamfisted annoyance of our semi elected leadership regardless of party level or position (does it really matter who runs it anymore?).
We're all in the same boat and properly right fucked. So instead of looking at the mess all over, clean up your own nook and work with others to help spread that nook. It won't clean up the world, but it'll keep you and your's in a position to dictate what needs to happen. Regardless of who thinks they believe they are centrally managing things. It's in all of our experience that central planning leads to annoying things.
I can now point to what was a fun part of my vacations 10 years ago, Habitat for humanity. Somehow Carter gets involved in it publically and it becomes less about building a place for people and more about the loan 10 years ago. Fuck if I've built a house for fun in 7 years. Trick is to find a group of well meaning assholes and as soon as someone says lets take attendance, walk away because all it'll do is attract a load of slobs that want to voulenteer and not work.
Work is an art in itself. It requires skill to show up and take one's hands out of the pockets and help. Be that guy. No saying things, just doing and enjoying. Couple beer afterwards doesn't hurt either. ;)
Amen brother...and I mean that. Carry on. It does require skill. More should.
Welcome to Zero Hedge. Beer is in the fridge, we're on the deck watching it burn and making sure business is being taken care of. lol
Been here a while, but thanks.
Beer is in the fridge, pull up a chair, we'll watch it burn and change it all once it's gone by the idiot sticks running the place so people can live better. Going back to the idea of "living", we can help those that want to learn how to make, grow, bake, hunt and educate.
Not much to do beyond that. Otherwise it's impossible to fix stupid. Like teaching a goat rocket science, it'll annoy both you and the goat. Mainly because the goat has more important things to do...like people.
Just shrug and keep on keepin on.
That's funny, "There's no cure for stupid".
Goes with engineering.
KISS = Keep it simple stupid
and the reason engineering has that principle
Can't fix stupid.
Probably why Apple has a lions share of the the craptop universe. Moron's buy them because they love shopping in a mall like atmosphere. Jobs know his market. Total morons. And that's just shitty laptops. Throw on nuclear physics on that and we're on the same page.
Most of the fucknut engineers I've met here from China are poor to average engineers, no imagination, shitty ability to drink, can't draw (seriously this is a bad sign) and great in math (who can't be). Usually uninventive mama's boys that left to their own devices have AIDS from the amount of hookers they fuck when "visiting" a broad, or worse herpes. At least with AIDS they die, herpes is like luggage, they carry that shit around on a generational level.
Couldn't pay me enough to fuck a chinese divorcee even in Canada. The dingle berries that married them are always sloppy. Europeans may fuck hookers regularily but at least it's regulated in house to control peoples junk rotting off and rubbers are a must rather than a maybe. Gay men could teach the rest of the world why to use a jimmy hat to the rest of the world.
However they shouldn't bother, there are other things to do if smart enough. Like take care of themselves and work with their neighbours. ZH is a who care's, time to get shit done...purple, green, white, gay, third arm...fuck it, we're all screwed board. How do we work it out from here kind of board?
It will be a short lived stint at sea without gas to run the diesel engines. Three masts and coal is a the future, why China would jump in that direction is probably looking at a tempest in a tea pot. Yes it's happening, but like any good pilot project it's to see where the bumps and scrapes are going to happen.
Besides the Americans made sure that anyone with the ability to wage war and butress the chinese were killed in formal battle fields with muskets 120 years ago. The pacific northwest doesn't belong to the US in 20 years. Why would the chinese want another desert. Neither the US nor Canada would be able to hold the land longer than the oil runs.
Can anyone here say lotus land (PacNW) has the ability to take care of itself without motioning a council member on a choice on practically nothing of value which will be actioned next city member meeting. aka the usual horseshit the PacNW is built to do. Somehow I'm guessing we'll all see the new independent state of China in the PacNW. Cascadia is a nice target though, resources up the yin yang, great take over target and easy to do.
And you're replying to your own...this is awesome.
Just an after thought. If I had a disposable standing army of 65 million why not park them in Seattle, San Fran and Vancouver. Not like there is a lack of contacts in the cities.
Having to hold off the Chinese I can live with.
Getting pincered by the goddamn Mormons at the same time...that hurts.
Its all going into the long term planning though.
Viva Cascadia!
we are full up here in oregon with farmers and hunters. And a lot of our retireds still drive . Its dangerous here. I think we will be a serious distraction to any invader. If they drink beer we might help them in.
ps getting shorter.
It' one reason i didn't mention Oregon. The South Cali gangs have a very tough time even moving into the city of Portland, more dead black guys and spanish that you can shake a stick at if understood to cause problems with the locals. Not to mention a pure rocky terrain. It's like the swiss alps. Defensible to only locals that know the land.
PDX= little Beiruit
But China *could* hold the pacNW across 5000mi of the Pacific??
Not freakin likely
Actually, the newer aircraft carriers are nuclear powered. But I guess that only makes the spectre of China having one of them even scarier.
Nuclear engines, all of them require back up (which are used frequently) run from diesel engines. People are so weird about how nuke plant work, the rods and the reaction chambers are where most of the power comes from, but the ancillary system that support all of it happen from diesel and oil.
Even American nuke boats require oil to run. They all do because when they were designed nobody stopped to think of a world without oil. Imagine all those nuke boats without backup cooling systems to tie the rods and the chambers.
Now that it just slightly more interesting than an oil well pouring into the gulf isn't it? Think of it as three mile island at sea or where they are moored.
Well, I don't know if I'd go that far, but it is interesting!
Just a thought--suppose a new generation of nuclear boats were designed, say by a country that is just now building its navy, as primarily electric drive and "accessories" (surely the subs have that design)? I suppose that would take alot of rare earth elements . . .
As an engineer I have no clue how it could be done, maybe slight bit more effiency in how power is distributed, but battery tech hasn't changed in (saddly) 80 years. We as a herd have been extremely focused on oil engines. Nuclear power is a very recent thing and our experience collectively has been baddly managed.
Let's put it this way, if the chinese are building a boat from stolen tech. They better understand that the only reason the US/French/UK fleet hasn't blown into bits is because as engineers we duct tape the shit together to keep it running. Let's put it this way, anti-freeze wasn't built for cars initially, it's a coolant believe it or not. Just happened that it's cheap enough to make sure modern cars don't seize at the speeds they do now with the heat they produce with the footprint the take in a modern truck or car.
Anycase, good luck to the chinese running a boat longer than two months. The reason the US/France/UK can run them is because of the engineering hacks, which aren't documented btw. Like all trades the tricks are given on the job and I've never met a Mr Chin working the hammer.
So, let's assume that a three year old has a handgun in this case. We can warn them, but if they don't listen. Fuck em. Their problem. This isn't like copying an ipad, it's a nuke. Last time the Chinese tested one was around 50 years ago. Good luck to them
Even if the ship ran completely on the reactor(s), the Aircraft do not.
A barking dog never bites, but we never knew a silent dog never had a set of teeth.
12 nukes stragically lobbed at China will take care of those a-holes.
Yes, start a major nuclear war so everyone can die! Americans are fucking geniuses!
Well, you gotta admit we are the Einsteins who invented The Bomb.
Yes, some Americans are definitely extremely intelligent. I don't really suffer from illusions; I understand that most members of all races and nationalities, including my own, are fucking morons.
Intelligent folks are rare everywhere, even on the internet, sadly.
hey dont get your tits in an uproar. i am german , yes and a moron. An aware moron is more correct.But i insist on helping the sheep and the other morons because like you those morons are my family. HI! here's smiling at you.
You really are that impressed with yourself aren't you?
Not so sure about that...a fascinating book here via scribd (with an odd scan) that posits an alt take on history and technology of weapons used and credited to the US in WWII. Pages 117-153 are relevant to the A-bomb. You may find a better pdf version out on the web. I read it years ago in a early form before it became available through Amazon and this version is probably that draft. It appears to be very well documented and provides great insight to the compartmentalized structure of military weapon research.
The other stuff in the book is pretty wild but is supported by the excellent investigations of Nick Cook and his book The Hunt for Zero Point.
A fantastic take overall on a potential history suppressed (...or not previously published by the victors) for anyone on the thread with an interest.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/468538/Farrell-Reich-of-the-Black-Sun-Nazi-Sec...
(Don't let the Google ads for Scientology peppered in the margins of the web-page dissuade you...Or am I just getting those?...lol)
A lot of people on the American team weren't Americans, and it wasn't only Americans who thought up the theory underlying The Bomb. And but for a terrific American and British bombing effort, those Germans would have had The Bomb as well.
But, Bob, you can be proud that America was the only country to have ever used it -- and against civilians.
Yeah, a team effort, I was just being fippant. I feel ya.
What nukes?
Right. Because aggression has worked so well in the past.
I hope you are kidding. Or are at least running down to your local recruiting station to be first in line to fight. Something tells me neither is the case, though.
Bloody American anyone?
People like you will deserve their future.
Vietnam is our new BFF.
You can never have too many of those . . . especially if you abuse and discard them faster than a deranged junior high school girl. You wonder how long she can continue it before the day arrives when she has to pack up and move to a new school.
Too bad that in our case it would require a different planet.
The UN security council is the mix. Axis/Allies will all flow from there.
The UNSC will be involved in the smooth launch of hostilities. Any world war is a highly organized effort.
WWI gave us the league of nations
WWII gave us the UN
WWIII will give us adore-able world government
It has been written and said often enough and long enough ago (Albert Pike anyone???).
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
PS: Sold some gold....yet?? Do it and no need to thank me later.
I think that WWIII will give us an Orwellian trinity of power division; the world is still too big to be dominated by one central location.
I had the same thought as I typing my comment. But it's all the same really. Just another face on essentially the same old game.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
What? I thought everything revolves around and bows to Israel ??
they bribe world leaders with white hookers and drugs, get a few banks going and enslave everyone in debt.... for paying for more white hookers and drugs...
It's a living.
World War III has already started and most people haven't reallized it yet.
This global war is about geo-engineered, biological and cyber-warfare.
Google HAARP + China earthquake. The Chinese will get even--and then some.
can we at least take a break for Christmas shopping?? we still need to buy toys from them
TAIPEI - Taiwan's President Ma Ying-jeou has asked the United States
to sell F-16C/Ds to Taiwan so many times that he must have lost count. Even warming cross-strait ties haven't led to the advanced aircraft being taken off his wish list. But over fears of infuriating Beijing, Washington won't risk more than offering to upgrade the island's long-serving F-16A/Bs.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LJ22Ad01.html
Anyone ever catch the Phil Hendry radio show? Phil would pretend to interview a guest (always outrageous) and play the guest too. Phil Hendry used to interview himself - it was a riot because half the listening audience thought they were real interviews and would call in to the station in total outrage. The other half of the audience knew the whole thing was a joke and just listened for the comedy of it all. This sounds like the Phil Hendry show. Tyler, is this all you?! This "thefatasswilly" Character is a riot!!
This an article I've been waiting for for a long time. Big wars (being mindful that being shot at is war enough for those in it), the kind of wars we read about in history books instead of poems and romanticized novels, often find their roots in a shift in naval power. There will be no WW3 worthy of the name that isn't premised on a challenge of US dominance of the Pacific. Inshallah that is a long way off.
ps: tomorrow's comes today. how many of us have them? (a playlist):
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=2D93C314EE324D8B
agreed Steak, watch the Navy...it matters in ways most don't understand. THX for the playlists.
@spinone
"China defense budget US$77.95 billion America defense budget US$685.1 billion"
You do realize that Chinese expenditure is @China price and American expenditure is @US price? There is no WalMart when it comes to US defence expenditure.
In effect China defence expenditure must be one trillion.
deleted
In terms of manpower, China has 2.25 million troops, 800,000 reserves and nearly 4 million paramilitary forces, for a total of more than 7 million. Compare that to the United States, which has 1.4 million active military personnel, 858,500 reserves and 53,000 paramilitary, a total of 2.3 million personnel. However, some experts see the very size of the Chinese army as a hindrance to modernization. According to Foreign Policy in Focus, China cannot afford adequate pay, training or modern weapons for most of its forces. China will not be able to develop modern military forces unless it either greatly increases military spending (which seems unlikely) or drastically cuts the size of its forces.
Peasants with guns. Most hit the army first because, yes, they are too stupid to go to school.
Are the Ami mercs any better? I wouldn't bet on that.
Not really. All have grade 12 equivalent and I've often doubted the idea a war can be won with slightly superior tech. If everyone has a machine gun, it still comes down to a gun fight and who can sneak up on one another.
It's really about who can sneak up on the other guy.
you forgot about the 65 million extra men in the country doing nothing because there is a shortage of women. So did foreign affairs policy focus I'm guessing...
Tell them: "The Ukraine girls really knock me out, they leave the West behind!" You should know the rest.
Good one.
And why not entertain the goegraphy in your otherwise rational analysis? Given the geography is there anything we can do to stop them? The situation is as if Russia colonized Cuba and made them the sole possesor of oil distribution rights (Taiwain = semiconductors). Would we for a minute tolerate that? My only astonishment is at how patient the Chinese are. You and I and this Imperial system we live under would have acted already. And that's a fact.
At a military parade this year, China debuted what up to then had only been speculated, a new ballistic missile aboard a mobile launch vehicle. This weapon is an anti-ship ballistic missile, it travels along a sub-orbital trajectory, coming down on the target at a steep angle, which is designed to overcome the aegis defense system on a US surface ship. Their military industry probably isn't as profitable, but its definitely on its way to proving its much more streamlined. The anti-ship missile was not launched as a new project, instead it was the result of studies into how to improve existing weaponry, and is based on a fielded weapon system, rather prudent if you ask me. Their efficient, selective approach to defense spending has produce a weapon system capable of keeping our carriers at bay, outside the reach of our F-18s.
Sure, our attack subs have tactical land assault missiles(TLAM), some of these cruise missiles are nuclear armed(TLAM/N); but targeting would be based off satellite images, which can easily be defeated with decoys for pennies on the dollar. Firing gives away the subs location, to a degree which may not be acceptable to military planners. TLAM/N's are currently deployed and provide Japan coverage under the nuclear umbrella.
China's recent spat with Japan over Diaoyu/Senkaku is troublesome in that it seems to be a harbinger of more frequent confrontations in the region.
There is little doubt as to China's aspirations, though there is a good deal of speculation as to the whens and how's of their realization. Will China pull the eminent domain trick as with Tibet, or will they copy our Gulf of Tonkin Incident with a false flag operation of their own?
This article correctly articulates growing concerns of smaller(southeast) and not so small(India and Russia) players in the region. They all smell what the wok is cookin'. Refusal to admit China as an observer was a clear message battle lines have been drawn.
India recently began tests of its newly acquired, Russian-built naval units, and they have plans to purchase more. China is strengthening its economic ties with Pakistan and Iran, completion of the railway into Tibet has opened up an artery through which large shipments of materiel can make their way west. The tact by which China handled the riots between Han and Muslims in Xianxing is indicative of a newfound sensitivity towards Muslim relations(lack of which could impact future ties with Indonesia).
Siberia and Mongolia are feeling the pressure, especially as China launch construction of massive solar power facilities in that region. Russia is paying attention to such moves, and there is some speculation recent bomber flight "intercepted" by NORAD were covers for surveillance along China's northern border. By all accounts it seems the strategic maneuvering is well underway, therefore is it hard not to see something come to a boil within the next two decades.
Why as long as a couple of decades?
I would think a year or two at the outside will do.
when will Japan unleash Godzilla on them??
would seem to me that missiles in substantial numbers would render most any navy moot for less than pennies on the dollar (or whatever).
edit: thanks trig
of course, because navies have never thought of that.
You guys have no idea whatsoever how good the ECM is from a CVN group. It can disappear from radar without stealth.
A ballistic kill missile will have a lot of trouble in terminal guidance just due to the speed of descent and the moving target.
Additionally, AEGIS systems have the capability to light up missiles with enough microwave energy to fry their electronics.
All a prelude to Formosa. And in your vein glorious tradition you still entertain the idea that there is something, anything, you can do to stop them. A rational person would merely try and extract a fair price for the exchange as it is inevitable. But being an Imperialist ye are not rational. Please do your best not to destroy us all in the persuit of your delusional defense of position (e.g. the proposition that you own the World an everything in it = FALSE).
China could very well make its moves within two years, though I would bet on waiting until the infrastructure and hardware by which to solidify any gains are in place.
A great source of solid information is the Federation of American Scientists; they have a military analysis project, and also keep track of MANPADS(man portable air defense system) sales worldwide. Oh yeah, its free.
www.fas.org
Their government secrecy and Congressional Research Service archives are also impressive.
Eric Arthur Blair speculated that established bases of power would, in an attempt to maintain and consolidate said power, distribute the excesses of human production toward war games. He opined that this would serve many purposes: not the least of which was the purposeful allocation of national wealth away from educating the masses about truth (dumb, poor) and the propaganda induced assumption forcing the determination for the necessity of the quadrillion dollar hammer (mic). he labeled it as oligarchical collectivism.
Did someone mention submarines? You are not going to believe this. A British submarine is grounded on rocks off the West coast of Scotland. The submarine is called HMS ASTUTE, from the British navy's latest ASTUTE Class of submarines.
How embarrassing - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11605365
How the mighty have fallen.
I'm not even a brit and that makes me want to cry.
Indeed. I bet the Russians and Chinese are quaking in their boots.
US spin knows no bounds. Check the asset registers of India and China. Which one has been buying the most expeditionary assets? Try Wikipedia if you're braindead and still come away with the right answer. Not the latter. Oh don't worry! Write up your crap anyway. And which country wants to supply nuke inputs to India even though they won't sign onto the IAEA inspections? That would be the US. And oh no its not the US running Nader campaigns on Toyota's and the disappearing of the same campaign (oh it was a non issue and figment of people's imaginations like RSI now was it?) but only after the Okinawan base lease update is bludgeoned out of them. And its not US twisting the arm behind the back of Japan on these Chinese islands that both sides agreed years ago they could fish and not intervene unless either side showed aggression (and it went years with no problem at all. And talking up the Spratleys dispute and the Lee madness and the Cheonan. Psychopaths, imagine even the Mujahaddin runner Gates can't stomach it anymore and just talks about US interests being open shipping lanes in the South Chiona Seas. Like it was when Hull and Roosevelt killed off the naval treaty with Japan and the US imperialism got its Asian half century in the sunshine. Get used to the idea that that Urdu speaking coalition of interests with Iran and India silding up to Abdullah Abdullah's murderous mates in the Northern Alliance and th US lining them up to run as overlords of the AFPAK to keep China's hands off Turkmen gas ... and it's going to be a flop just like all Amercian military adventurist flops since WWII. The Pashtun are just going to keep kicking US butt until the US hightails it out of there. And the arch of instability game the US is playing around China is slapstick and ludicrous. All the US 'friends' are talking out the sides of their mouths because US credibility has been destroyed. When it come sdown to it there will be no friends anywhere and the US self perpetuates its own xenophobic world view. Torch for the new world? It was there but it ended with Cleveland.
There'll be no war between bet'n China and America, ever - all sons and daughters and grandkids of the politburo members are American citizens. The just appointed Crown Prince Xi Jinping's daughter is a freshman in Harvard.
What will happen is simple and nasty.
Dramatis Personae
China: Ken Jeong, (Mr. Chow from The Hangover.)
America: Owen Wilson (whatever)
QE2..N undermines China's reserves.
China says, "Whaaa? You give me my money!"
America says, "Sure, pardner, here are some brand spankin' new Bernake-Pesos."
China says, "You keep your stinking pesos, we're taking Taiwan."
America says, "We are obligated to defend..."
China says, "Obligate this, liberty ladies, I'm dumping gold and USD and your aircraft carriers can't run on freedom. Send us Lohan, we think about letting you clean our houses! Few hundred billion in inflation losses small price to pay for Taiwan."
America says, "This is unacceptable, we will.."
China says, "We didn't say accept it, we said Take It.. different. When your Mandarin improves you will understand better."
America: " :( "