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Guest Post: The Chinese Navy Faces A Critical Watershed As The East Asian Strategic Balance Changes

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Wed, 06/09/2010 - 18:26 | 404619 ghostfaceinvestah
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They have a lot of young single men that they need to keep occupied.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 18:52 | 404678 The Franchise
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"Watershed".... if I never hear that term again, it will be too soon. In this melodramatic world, everything is a friggen "watershed" moment/event.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 18:55 | 404683 M.B. Drapier
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If I understand correctly, the "Chinese Navy" identified as being at a watershed here is the navy of the Republic of China, ie. Taiwan.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 21:29 | 404953 Itsalie
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thanks for pointing that out, for a while I had thought I had just gone to sleep for 30 years; increadible still  have ultra-neocons calling Taiwan ROC when the taiwanese themselves want to call themselves Taiwan. Maybe this site should have a column on its pet investment themes: gold, oil, PM, short everything else, esp the USD. At least that should help first time visitors understand they will occasionally read some propaganda stuff like this piece, but we understand; afterall, TD needs to pay themselves.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 19:03 | 404705 sushi
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Glad to see the white man is still telling the yellow men what they must do.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 19:18 | 404742 M.B. Drapier
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He's counselling the ROC to build a powerful and independent navy to protect its own interests. Closer to Deming than to the Opium Wars, wouldn't you agree?

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 19:10 | 404722 deadparrot
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China will conquer Taiwan without a shot being fired. The action will be internationally condemned, but only so the various heads of state can act tough. Behind the scenes, it'll be, "Sorry about trashing you, Hu. You know I had to do that for the cameras. Like we agreed, you are going to keep buying our debt, right?"

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 21:38 | 404968 Snidley Whipsnae
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"China will conquer Taiwan without a shot being fired."

Yes.

Eventually even Japan will fall under the sphere of influence of Mainland China (let us please use terms that we all understand) as economic weakness will limit the projection of US military power into SE Asia as time passes.

China wants to win an economic war, not a shooting war. This is most important to remember. DC and Wall St have played into the hands of the Chinese, and continue to do so.

Also, at some point Australia is going to be forced to make some very tough decisions.

I spent four years working in ASW. There are two types of military craft in the world. Submarines and targets.

I recently read that the US now has 4~5 carrier battle groups within visual sight of Iran. They are ducks on the pond for 3,000+ MPH missles. US admirals have for a long time realized how vulnerable carriers are to modern missle attack. What is the reasoning behind placing carriers in sight of Iran and who gave the orders? Less than 15 minutes after any hostilities begin with Iran the US carriers will suffer the fate of Yamamoto's carrier group at the battle of Midway...only the attack on the carriers will be via missles, not aircraft. 

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 22:49 | 405121 DoChenRollingBearing
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Sad but true on all counts Snidley.  The world over there is evolving in an undesireable direction where we cannot even credibly help our 'friends' the ROC or S. Korea for that matter.

But, there is a good chance that China will screw up.  They have every time they were on the verge of being a superpower, every Dynasty.  And they do have internal demographic and pollution problems that are immense.

Perhaps: "China will get old before it gets rich."

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 23:18 | 405177 MacHoolahan
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If Ben keeps printing dollars then expect the take down quite soon. Always thought he had the look of a stooge....

When the renminbi gets revalued (as must follow... eventually) the boot will be firmly on the other foot. Nicely thrown away, "free world".

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 05:13 | 405451 laosuwan
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China wants to win an economic war, not a shooting war.

 

Not so for those in the army and navy. when you meet them and talk to them it becomes clear that they really, really do want war. they want to defeat the us militarily in the worst way. they see it as payback for humiliation in the past. and it is the military that really calls the shots in china not the CP.

 

As for who gave the orders to put the carriers in sight of iran look at the comander in chief. a muslim marxist who has put the military where it can be slaughtered and with no tools to defend themsleves. that is not accidental or coincidental.

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 06:16 | 405491 Snidley Whipsnae
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"Not so for those in the army and navy. when you meet them and talk to them it becomes clear that they really, really do want war. they want to defeat the us militarily in the worst way. they see it as payback for humiliation in the past. and it is the military that really calls the shots in china not the CP."

I grew up in SE Asia and am not buying this statement. The military in mainland China is not calling the shots. Even if they were they are aware that no one wins an all out nuclear exchange...and that is precisely why China is taking pains to win a protracted economic battle with the West.

 

 

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 21:53 | 407396 laosuwan
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you grew up here, i live here. look at the ownership of most large chinese companies and you will find they are controlled by the military. that, by definition, is power.

 

the chinese know the us will never resort to nuclear. they have "defeated" the usa two times, in korea and vietnam. the reason is that each time they let the usa know if they used nuclear so would they. that was enough.

 

now i agree with the other posters the immediate plan is to take taiwan by economic means backed up by military threat. but you cannot rule out the military creating a pretext for war and going for it now.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 19:11 | 404723 knukles
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Holy Crap!  Don't think I've seen anything proffered up quite so dense to read (as in the legal jargon sense of the term) in eons.
Is there a happy ending or not?

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 19:12 | 404729 Eally Ucked
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What a bunk! At least they're paid for producing such a meaningless shit.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 19:40 | 404779 seventree
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During the flareup in Georgia, the US emphasised that under no circumstances would American and Russian troops come into direct conflict. The potential for uncontrolled escalation is simply too great. A similar understanding likely holds between the US and mainland China. Taiwan's protections against a naked military takover are (1) its own defenses, which are not sufficient to win an all out battle but would make one costly for China; (2) China's reluctance to destabilize global trade relations which even today are highly profitable; (3) existing investment and trade ties between Taiwan and the mainland which are beneficial to both; and (4) the fact that much of what makes Taiwan valuable would be destroyed in such a conflict.

However I believe it is inevitable that Taiwan will come under some degree of control from Beijing. When and how this happens, and how tight the leash, remains to be seen. Neither Taiwan nor the US wish this outcome, but both will find some way to accept it.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 19:50 | 404815 damage
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At least according to those I know in Hong Kong, they say they are totally different in Taiwan to the people of Hong Kong. In that the ROC "will never accept rule from the PRC".

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 21:16 | 404926 seventree
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Good for them. I really hope it works out that way. And that mainland China decides the current relationship is in their best interest also.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 22:52 | 405129 DoChenRollingBearing
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That could be true.

Years ago (soon before the handover) I was in HK on business.  Our HK hosts said they were looking forward to being part of China again.  And our hosts owned factories on they mainland.

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 00:00 | 405230 thisandthat
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HK was ruled by foreigners to both China and HK, Taiwan is ruled by foreigners to Taiwan, but from China itself - not so much a national pride thing, maybe.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 19:48 | 404809 trav7777
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PRC's Navy is so pathetic they could not mount an amphibious invasion of Hong Kong.

Force projection with CVN groups does not necessarily include sitting in the fking Strait.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 20:31 | 404874 SWRichmond
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I think PRC knows that naval priority #1 is ASW.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 21:12 | 404928 boeing747
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After 1st attacking Chinese market ( by using Google China) failed, 2nd attacking was accomplished by new arm sells to Taiwan, yet still no much impact. Now 3rd wave of attacking launched from Yellow Sea.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 21:21 | 404941 Madhouse
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After the aquisition of Taiwan (deadparrot's post is correct), China will become increasingly intoxicated with power. The power drug is always successful society's downfall ("Bring it on"). Japan, finally sick of North Korea's threats and America's decline (no more beer drinking in Tokyo), it will be invigorated by the Chinese threat. In just 10 years it will catch up with the Chinese  - nukes, you name it. Ultimately, it will be the planet's next major war. I give it 15 years. Sayonara.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 21:48 | 404993 ciao
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The sovereignty of the ROC?  Given the US's black letter committment to 1 China this article is rubbish from top to bottom.  It is like a detailed recount of US hypocrisy in its support of ROC which is supposed to be with US encouragement in peaceful transition back to 1 China.  As for the indigenous Taiwanese - the slate has been cleaned.

 

Better he concentrates on the "meat grinder" and whether ROK and China are in cahoots.

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 22:21 | 405056 FourWude
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They'll be building aircraft carriers within a decade, I can almost guarantee you it. Some may say they lack the know-how, but when has that stopped China from accomplishing anything over the past 40 years?? They'll get it, and with aircraft carriers and a more advanced navy, as well as now building 4th Gen Fighter Jets and by 2018 soon to be 5th Gen Fighter Jets they'll have the military infrastructure and power to project themselves more forecefully on the world stage.

 

Does that mean China will want an empire of its own and start carving nations apart, fortunately the answer is NO. The Chinese civilisation throughout history so far has shown no desire, no matter how powerful it has been, to exercise military power outside of East Asia and parts of SE Asia (Sinosphere). The Chinese aren't stupid, they're not about to waste their new found money and riches holding onto rocks and deserts in far off nations. Why war when you can trade is the Chinese philosophy of expansion.

 

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 00:17 | 405243 Snidley Whipsnae
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Aircraft carriers are today what battleships were at Pearl Harbor.

Force projection with aircraft carriers when 3,000 MPH+ sub based, land based, and air launched missles are arrayed against carrier groups is folly. US admirals are fully aware of this fact yet they cannot admit it for too many economic and military eggs have been placed in the carrier basket and too many military careers are at stake. Billy Mitchell was courts martialed because he demonstrated how easy battleships could be sunken by air bombardment many years prior to the Pearl Harbor debacle.

Up thread I asked the question: Why and who authorized 4~5 carrier task groups to sail withing visual distance of an Iranian coast bristling with modern missles?

Unless TPTB want WW3 then the US carriers should be withdrawn to a distance where their aircraft are still within striking distance of land based targets but the carriers are at a distance that will allow more opportunity (still slim) to stop the missles from reaching the carriers. Missle technology is progressing by leaps and bounds. Countermeasures to stop the missles is lagging.

Fortunately the US has a modern and effective sub force.  

In future force projection will consist of controlling the sea lanes for safety of maritime traffic and it will be accomplished with submarines. Whoever controls the maritime sea lanes will control the flow of commodities and trade.

Nothing really new about that concept.  

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 02:17 | 405347 ciao
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Besides whay snidley says about battleships being yesterdays weapon (except against defenceless 3rd world states), the Chinese got a hold of the Australian aircraft carrier Melbourne 30 years ago to reverse engineer it, they have a got medium sized one from Russia on ice, and Chinese shipyards build the latest 10,000 teu(container)+ generation of containerships that run at over 30 knots.  So capability has been there for ages but both China's traditional lack of adventurism and the strategy of owning them is predominant.  If you want to look for trouble look at India, now they have aircraft carriers underway and nuke subs proliferating and far more inclination toward adventurism.  They don't need the assets they are deploying for any war against Pakistan or near neighbours thats for sure.  And they are a far more reactionary state than China that is developing deep defence industry ties with Israel.

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 11:02 | 405917 Observer
Observer's picture

Our weapons acquisition and development programme is in response to the real threat of a Chinese invasion in our northern regions, a legacy of the 1962 war where we got pasted. That has helped us limit Chinese excursions into our territory in the late 1980s and the late 1990s. You do need to inform yourself a bit more about India and our history both recent and distant as also human nature. Security comes from strength both economic and military not the other way around

Wed, 06/09/2010 - 22:25 | 405074 williambanzai7
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Want to know why there are Chinese indigenous populations all over the world?

They like to move around on boats. It is in their blood.

Just wait and see what happens next.

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 00:14 | 405237 Fat Cat Sam
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A good report, but one sided on the ROC side and assuming that the PRC is some peaceful, homogenous whole. China, like all other countries, has it's own internal forces vying for power that will seek to expand China's maritime presence and also seeks to restrict it based on which faction comes to power in Beijing. (Those factions that are prone to nationalism vs. those prone to internationalism)

 

Secondly, any agressive expansion by China will cause the other powers to react accordingly, especially Korea, India, Australia and Japan. With or without the US's security umbrella or consent. In fact, if the US's security umbrella is removed or comes under significant doubt than that maybe the signal that will launch an Asian arms race. While many view the US's global security apparatus as being the world's protector; a more subtle side of it is to restrain our allies from initiating a vast military buildup.

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 03:36 | 405409 AnAnonymous
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If you are in weapon dealing, that is the kind of articles you want to write to convince one of your prospect customers.

 

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 08:32 | 405584 Anarchist
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China does not need to invade Taiwan. In the past investment, in China by the Taiwanese was thought to be folly. It has finally paid back huge dividends. This investment is now essential to Taiwans financial health. The Chinese are now in the drivers seat financially and are now investing in Taiwan. The two are now financially interlocked.

Thu, 06/10/2010 - 11:06 | 405940 Observer
Observer's picture

Very true. That has to led to an increasing number of Taiwanese desiring closer relations or re-unification with PRC even on their terms. It still does not indicate there will be strong majority support for re-unification on PRC terms anytime in the near future but it does increase the probability.

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