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Gonzalo Lira On The Coming Middle-Class Anarchy
Submitted by Gonzalo Lira
The Coming Middle-Class Anarchy
True story: A retired couple I know, Brian and Ilsa, own a home in the Southwest. It’s a pretty house, right on the manicured golf course of their gated community (they’re crazy about golf).
The only problem is, they bought the house near the top of the market in 2005, and now find themselves underwater.
They’ve never missed a mortgage payment—Brian and Ilsa are the kind upright, not to say uptight 60-ish white semi-upper-middle-class couple who follow every rule, fill out every form, comply with every norm. In short, they are the backbone of America.
Even after the Global Financial Crisis had seriously hurt their retirement nest egg—and therefore their monthly income—and even fully aware that they would probably not live to see their house regain the value it has lost since they bought it, they kept up the mortgage payments. The idea of them strategically defaulting is as absurd as them sprouting wings.
When HAMP—the Home Affordable Modification Program—was unveiled, they applied, because they qualified: Every single one of the conditions applied to them, so there was no question that they would be approved—at least in theory.
Applying for HAMP was quite a struggle: Go here, go there, talk to this person, that person, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. “It’s like they didn’t want us to qualify,” Ilsa told me, as she recounted their mind-numbing travails.
It was a months-long struggle—but finally, they were approved for HAMP: Their mortgage period was extended, and the interest rate was lowered. Even though their home was still underwater, and even though they still owed the same principal to their bank, Brian and Ilsa were very happy: Their mortgage payments had gone down by 40%. This was equivalent to about 15% of their retirement income. So of course they were happy.
However, three months later, out of the blue, they got a letter from their bank, Wells Fargo: It said that, after further review, Brian and Ilsa had in fact not qualified for HAMP. Therefore, their mortgage would go back to the old rate. Not only that, they now owed the difference for the three months when they had paid the lowered mortgage—and to add insult to injury, they were assessed a “penalty for non-payment”.
Brian and Ilsa were furious—a fury which soon turned to dour depression: They tried contacting Wells Fargo, to straighten this out. Of course, they were given the run-around once again.
They kept insisting that they qualified—they qualified! But of course, that didn’t help at all—like a football, they were punted around the inner working of the Mortgage Mess, with no answers and no accountability.
Finally, exhausted, Brian and Ilsa sat down, looked at the last letter—which had no signature, and no contact name or number—and wondered what to do.
On television, the news was talking about “robo-signatures” and “foreclosure mills”, and rank illegalities—illegalities which it seemed everyone was getting away with. To top it off, foreclosures have been suspended by the largest of the banks for 90 days—which to Brian and Ilsa meant that people who weren’t paying their mortgages got to live rent free for another quarter, while they were being squeezed out of a stimulus program that had been designed—tailor made—precisely for them.
Brian and Ilsa are salt-of-the-earth people: They put four kids through college, they always paid their taxes. The last time Brian broke the law was in 1998: An illegal U-turn on a suburban street.
“We’ve done everything right, we’ve always paid on time, and this program is supposed to help us,” said Brian. “We follow the rules—but people who bought homes they couldn’t afford get to squat in those McMansions rent free. It would have been smarter if we’d been crooks.”
Now, up to this point, this is just another sob story of the Mortgage Mess—and as sob stories go, up to this point, it’s no big deal.
But here’s where the story gets ominous—here’s where the Jaws soundtrack kicks in:
Brian and Ilsa—the nice upper-middle-class retired couple, who always follow the rules, and never ever break the law—who don’t even cheat on their golf scores—even when they’re playing alone (“Because if you cheat at golf, you’re only cheating yourself”)—have decided to give their bank the middle finger.
They have essentially said, Fuckit.
They haven’t defaulted—not yet. They’re paying the lower mortgage rate. That they’re making payments is because of Brian: He is insisting that they pay something—Ilsa is of the opinion that they should forget about paying the mortgage at all.
“We follow the rules, and look where that’s gotten us?” she says, furious and depressed. “Nowhere. They run us around, like lab rats in a cage. This HAMP business was supposed to help us. I bet the bank went along with the program for three months, so that they could tell the government that they had complied—and when the government got off their backs, they turned around and raised the mortgage back up again!”
“And charged us a penalty,” Brian chimes in. The non-payment penalty was only $84—but it might as well been $84 million, for all the outrage they feel. “A penalty for non-payment!”
Nevertheless, Brian is insisting that they continue paying the mortgage—albeit the lower monthly payment—because he’s still under the atavistic sway of his law-abiding-ness.
But Ilsa is quietly, constantly insisting that they stop paying the mortgage altogether: “Everybody else is doing it—so why shouldn’t we?”
A terrible sentence, when a law-abiding citizen speaks it: Everybody else is doing it—so why don’t we?
I’m like Wayne Gretsky: I don’t concern myself with where the puck has been—I look for where the puck is going to be.
Right now, people are having a little hissy-fit over the robo-signing scandal, and the double-booking scandal (where the same mortgage was signed over to two different bonds), and the little fights between junior tranches and senior tranches and the servicer, in the MBS mess.
But none of that shit is important.
What’s really important is Brian and Ilsa: What’s really important is that law-abiding middle-class citizens are deciding that playing by the rules is nothing but a sucker’s game.
Just like the poker player who’s been fleeced by all the other players, and gets one mean attitude once he finally wakes up to the con? I’m betting that more and more of the solid American middle-class will begin saying what Brian and Ilsa said: Fuckit.
Fuck the rules. Fuck playing the game the banksters want you to play. Fuck being the good citizen. Fuck filling out every form, fuck paying every tax. Fuck the government, fuck the banks who own them. Fuck the free-loaders, living rent-free while we pay. Fuck the legal process, a game which only works if you’ve got the money to pay for the parasite lawyers. Fuck being a chump. Fuck being a stooge. Fuck trying to do the right thing—what good does that get you? What good is coming your way?
Fuckit.
When the backbone of a country starts thinking that laws and rules are not worth following, it’s just a hop, skip and a jump to anarchy.
TV has given us the illusion that anarchy is people rioting in the streets, smashing car windows and looting every store in sight. But there’s also the polite, quiet, far deadlier anarchy of the core citizenry—the upright citizenry—throwing in the towel and deciding it’s just not worth it anymore.
If a big enough proportion of the populace—not even a majority, just a largish chunk—decides that it’s just not worth following the rules anymore, then that society’s days are numbered: Not even a police-state with an armed Marine at every corner with Shoot-to-Kill orders can stop such middle-class anarchy.
Brian and Ilsa are such anarchists—grey-haired, well-dressed, golf-loving, well-to-do, exceedingly polite anarchists: But anarchists nevertheless. They are not important, or powerful, or influential: They are average—that’s why they’re so deadly: Their numbers are millions. And they are slowly, painfully coming to the conclusion that it’s just not worth it anymore.
Once enough of these J. Crew Anarchists decide they no longer give a fuck, it’s over for America—because they are America.
Update I:
The Center for Public Integrity has a story, written by Michael Hudson this past August 6, that shines a light on the issue of perverse incentives of the HAMP program. These perverse incentives came to light because of a whistleblower, a former employee of Fannie Mae, filing a lawsuit. Fannie Mae was so keen on being perceived as a money-maker, after the Federal government bailout, that the aid programs passed by the Congress and signed by the President were turned into profit centers.
The former executive, Caroline Herron, recounts:
“It appeared that Fannie Mae officers were focused on maximizing incentive payments available to Fannie Mae under various federal programs – even if this meant wasting taxpayer money and delaying the implementation of high-priority Treasury programs,” she claims in the lawsuit.
Herron alleges that Fannie Mae officials terminated her $200-an-hour consulting work in January because she raised questions about how it was administering the federal government’s push to help homeowners avoid foreclosure, known as the Home Affordable Modification Program, or HAMP.
Herron further alleged that “trial mods” were implemented regardless of eligibility of applicants, so that Fannie Mae would be eligible for Federal government bonuses.
Ms. Herron’s testimony in fact proves Ilsa’s suspicion that there was a scam at bottom. As Mr. Hudson writes, “Herron charges that Fannie Mae continued in headlong pursuit of ‘trial mods’ even though it knew that many had little chance of becoming permanent. [. . .] Fannie preferred doing trials, Herron alleges, because it was eligible to receive incentive payments from the Treasury Department.”
So in the pursuit of these perverse incentives, people who did not qualify for HAMP were enrolled in the program. And when their “trial mods” were up after 90 days, they would be notified that they didn’t qualify—regardless of whether they in fact did qualify, as in the case of Brian and Ilsa.
All so as to be perceived as a profitable operation, worth having been bailed out. All so as to be perceived as “returning America’s money”.
As of February, 2010, of the over one million homeowners’ mortgages under HAMP auspices, 83% were “trial mods”. One would assume that those 850,000 homeowners would also be assessed an $84 penalty for non-payment.
$84 times over 850,000? You do the math.
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but he was just the postman trying to delivery a priority mail envelope! eh, fuckit. i give up. open on them, too.
Dude, aka Mistrial:
Your argument is weak. It is a very broad brush on a complex subject.
I bought a house during this period of time. Had I known about all the shenanigans with liar loans, 40:1 capital leverage, CDO's, I would have never bought. I paid off my mortgage and frankly, I think the banks owe me the difference between what I overpaid and what my home is worth. They created this difference through their fraudulent practices which created credit unworthy buyers. Given the "normal" practice of scrubbing and rescrubbing my entire financial history, why would I think that liar loans could even happen? Yet, they did.
Given that banks are forced to not foreclose I suggest all mortgage holders force the issue and quit paying. Break the banks.
Liar Loans need to be replaced with "Honorable Foreclosures"
Screw it. This is your last chance to break these banks and the system.
"Given that banks are forced to not foreclose I suggest all mortgage holders force the issue and quit paying. Break the banks."
Man,
You sound like a leader!
Not sure if you're referring to moi, however, I am not "Dude" and its Misstrial as in Miss and trial.
AFA your situation, my view is that you have a paid-off home and in the present economy this is a huge asset.
AFA the bank owing you "the difference between what I overpaid and what my home is worth" - well, don't you think that's between you and your home's seller? After all, you chose to accept their offer and at the time, the sale price was amenable to you...and now that there's been a price drop you want a refund on the difference?
Ain't gonna happen.
~Misstrial
Funny, you sound like a woman I date now and then. Mortgage people like to distance themselves from what happened. The fraud became normal operation, that I can understand. One zero income, no problem, one 40% loan to income ratio, no problem. Let's mix them, sell them to Iceland, strip the interest and sell that. Then we create derivatives on the direction of payment. I wonder how many believed their own lies and purchased overvalued plastic siding with gates and guards?
Hey Obama! Yes we can....
.. and the crowd says "yes, we can"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqALdkTArqs
.
No one sees it, in all of these posts. They have us at each other's throats instead of having our eyes on them, the banking system. Divide and conquer, bitches. We are conquered.
That's silly. Must everyone identify every party at fault in every post? Gonzalo identified Wells Fargo and set up Brian and Ilsa as being as devoid of blame for their own situation. Many here disagreed. But I doubt that any who are criticizing Brian and Ilsa intend to let Wells Fargo off the hook. It would be less realistic and more immature if everyone simply swallowed whole the idea that the only party to blame here is WF.
No truer words spoken! I bought citi $4, Nov. puts Friday. I was holding Lehman Brothers puts when they went under. Citi is bankrupt and without yet another bailout their fee bubble will burst. I say we take them down one at a time.
Did the mortgage bankers default on a loan on their HQ in DC? If they did, there is probably a lesson or two for the retirees?
It's not that I'm trying to e any different from all of you but here's the deal: in order to buy the "expensive house" you have to have "the expensive debt." If the house is in some desert shit hole then both the borrower and the lender have made an error. "shit holes" can include a golf course btw. more to the point "if the bank CEO's didn't think fooling around in the real estate market involves the Federal Government then simply put: they're lying." They securitized with Uncle Salami. Now they get "Housing Discrimination from Justice." To me "that's the system." They're called voters, too and this must be "written into the risk pool" and not just 2000 pages of mumbo jumbo that say "we can do whatever the hell we want because we're bankers."
If I could be assured a full building and a successful mission, I would ram the truckbomb into GS myself.
Put up or shut up.
It's coming fuckface. Better buy some land in patagonia and change your name to goldzales. The whole stinking lot of you.
Let's get serious guys. These kind people have chosen to not default and squat on their house because they are rightfully worried about their credit reports. I don't blame them. Up until now they probably balanced out whether it was worth it to walk away from the $100k or so that they their house was underwater or maintain a good credit history. I bet they would have given it much more thought had it been a $1,000,000 dilemma.
All they are doing now is making the correct payment on their mortgage. If they reached an actual bank rep I'm sure they would be able to resolve it in their favor and all fees would be waived. I think they are doing the right thing here.
I see you work in mortgage also ha! Sorry, we don't share your dream that banks CARE! They don't care! They screw you every chance they get, raise this fee (hope they don't notice), raise this fee ( they didn't notice the last one) raise that fee, ( fuck-um we will take them for everything they have) raise that fee, oh, they protest let's pretend we care ha! I once had a 2.9% life of loan ( really how stupid of the bank), took the whole credit limit placed it in Emigrant Bank N.Y. for 4.6%! Worked great for several years. Then they TRIED to screw with the terms. I auto payed (great tool by the way) couldn't raise the rates like they hoped ha! Then a magic yearly account fee of 40$? Fuck-um I said, called said you said in the fine print locked rate, no-fee. They said oh we changed that it's a fee now. I called IL. banking commission (turds), called my Senator Obummer (not even a form letter returned), called Senator Dustbin no response, Congressman no response. No one cared this bank lied to me in writing! I sent a copy of my case to Senator Bernie Sanders I-Vermont. Bernie wrote me back, asked if I would send him the paperwork, talked about it on the floor and walla. GEE, Mr. we some how mixed this up, we would never screw people like this on a whole-sale manor ha! Then congress (in the infinite wisdom) decided to raise the min. payment up to 2% ha! I didn't care, however it killed my personal bank ( use other people's money to make money doing nothing routine). How many people I wonder were screwed by raising their min payment, then were late, raising rates with fees attached? The death spiral of debt. Don't get me started on Ins. companies ha!
While the actions of the bank suck, I don't have a lot of sympathy for Brian and Ilsa. Nobody forced them to pay top tick, and even after doing so could still afford to carry their white elephant. What the hell gives them the right to expect someone else to cover for their mistake? Actions have consequences, and by age "60-ish" they should have learned that, even in America. Frankly, the HAMP program, whether it has merits or not, was not designed (in theory, at least) for people like them (though I'm sure someone expected their future vote).
If the country revolts because 60 year olds think they have a right to more discretionary capital, so they can fit in more rounds of golf, then the revolution will be a mockery. Brian and Ilsa can take the lamp post next to Jamie, though maybe the taxpayer can cover their cost on the rope. The least they can do.
I believe I speak for at least a portion of the board when I say go eat a dick.
you do not speak for me. these people are the problem and their 'story' has mad holes in it. rest assure, NoVolumeMeltup, they do not give a fuck about you because they do not have the capacity. its ALL ABOUT THEM.
F-U-C-K T-H-E-M.
"they do not give a fuck about you"
I don't expect that anyone does in this world save a close half dozen. Fortunately, it has no bearing on my decision making.
There is a systemic failure underway and while they are not entirely innocent victims, I have far more of a problem with the predatory system and corruption that allows shit like this to happen.
I bet you cheered the Bankruptcy reform from a few years back because of the shitheads that ran up their credit card bills, right? What about the (now majority) of BKs from medical costs? Fuck them too, yes?
So what do you want? More nanny laws so these old delusional hippies can go back to playing golf and impressing their equally vain friends?
Ultimately, the problem is not with government, politcians, bankers, or welfare corporations. The problem is with ignorant Americans who let it all happen. These two don't need help. They need a kick in the a$$.
Here's my rationale. If you still insist I go eat a dick, well that's your prerogative (though it is not my cup of tea).
HAMP is a limited program with a limited budget. As a result of the financial debacle, there are millions of people suffering under the burden of their mortgage. Some of these people bought more than they can afford, and I haven't enough sympathy for them. Others played the percentages, that is they assumed to be both healthy and employed for the duration of a mortgage they could well afford, but the economy or bad luck resulted in their lay-off or bad health. It is this latter group that, in my opinion, should be the ones benefiting from HAMP. Unlike many here, I don't mind if that's where my tax dollars go.
Our couple here was not destitute. They can still afford their original mortgage. They are not trying to "stick it to the man" by stiffing the banks and taking away a high yielding bank asset, but rather they are trying to "get what I deserve", so that they can free up capital to further enjoy an already comnfortable life. While they may be entitled according to the letter of the HAMP program, I am of the view they abuse its intent.
Also, what if the bubble had continued for another few years and their house value had doubled? They'd be bragging at cocktail parties about how damn clever they are. And if rates had climbed to 15%, you think they would let the bank break the contract and renogotiate and match book? It's all about ME.
As the HAMP program's funds are necessarily limited, and there is plenty of real need (vs. this couple's purely personal desire), I think it would have been nice of them to let those more in need take advantage of the program. For once it would be nice to see people in the Me Generation actually show some character and generosity of spirit, instead of "getting what's rightfully mine".
I could dress down and walk into a homeless shelter and get a free meal. There is no law that says I can't. I don't do it, and most people don't do it because we all understand the difference between real need and just being cheap or selfish. Maybe I am wrong, but I see this the same way.
If these people really are the "salt of the Earth", then I am going to have high blood pressure. In my view they are a part of the problem, nowhere near as large as the banks, but a part of it nonetheless. The world, especially during times like these, does not need more selfish, self-centered, spoiled people.
"While they may be entitled according to the letter of the HAMP program, I am of the view they abuse its intent."
that's an extremely well-made argument chindit. it definitely made me reconsider my personal opinion on this. nonetheless, there's still the little matter of the {trial mods, not trial mods} and the attached penalties. so maybe this particular couple was asking for it by applying for a program they shouldn't have, but what about any one of 840,000 where that moral line isn't so clear.
i/o/w do these 840,000 have a legitimate grievance regardless of their supposed intentions for applying for the program?
i know i seem like one of the biggest heartless bastards on the planet most of the time, but it amazes me how many sacrifices many of us have to make to avoid these debacles, only to be asked to bail out those who lived high on the hog when we were suffering from discipline and going without.
...this couple lived on a golf course with borrowed money. come on, America. there are people in the world that are crippling themselves bending over in rice fields all day long. what about them? they are human beings, no? who do we think we are?
I never thought that i would see the day where i do not even recognize my own countrymen.
I would never let this couple starve if i could help it, but i would let them lose their house on the golf course.
again, this is not to excuse the disaster in our country which is centrally planned money, faith-based fiat currency, and fractional reserve lending. then again, what did this couple do to understand these things and end them? nothing.
chopper, you have more than adequately detailed your "moral" argument by this point. personally, if it were up to me, i'd allow the one of the families who got kicked out of their farms over the past 20 years (see willie nelson for deets) to squat the joint and start growing jatropha on the 9th fairway.
however, that wasn't my question. my question was that do people who were told that they qualify under the HAMP program and now told they do not and have to pony up the balance plus penalties when it's being revealed that this dishonesty was an intentional policy on the part of a quasi-governmental agency have any legitimate legal recourse?
if you have any constructive opinion on such, then please share it. otherwise, i know what your views of this couple and what they deserve are already.
in my opinion, since you asked, they should not be held accountable for any penalty. not that my opinion matters to whoever will decide this legal issue.
No doubt, big banks are out of control and crushing citizens across the country one by one. I do feel bad for these folks in some ways but, again, I sincerely doubt they've done a thing to fight the concentration of power among large banks in NYC and politicians in D.C. Now i'm meant to rally behind them when i've been pounding the table long before they ever experienced a problem? their probable apathy before this crises probably made my life more difficult. For how many others are this couple a metaphor?
they are cannon fodder because they have allowed this 'system' to get out of control while they were golfing. sorry, Tip, its true!! sorry if you do not find my comments 'constructive'. just weighing in on things they way they appear to me. of course, i do not have a monopoly on truth or understanding, so i am always open to criticism. thank you for yours. keep it coming!
peace!
hey chop, thanks for the constructive reply. tho i disagree on one point, i do think your opinion matters, all of ours do in fact. you're right that none of us have a monopoly on truth, yet i happen to believe that we all collectively create the 'reality' in which we find ourselves. but that's a subject for another time & place perhaps.
i happen to personally agree with you, chindit's and others' opinion on the root causes of what got our world and this country to this point and what's tearing it apart. i also agree that we could all be (voluntarily of course) spending much more of our collective energy in consideration of our fellow human beings that busted their butts in service to our life of luxury, whether directly or indirectly.
(speaking of such, if anyone's interested, there's a new method of growing rice being tested right now that is quite evolutionary:)
http://sri.ciifad.cornell.edu/
however, the fact is that no matter how much you and i rant & rave at the System and those who perpetuate it, it ain't gonna matter a rice paddy. we're on the fringe you see and the System has already evolved to a point to be able to buffer itself from a certain % of the population on the fringe and to effectively diffuse the arguments coming from there. of course, much of this has to do with the histrionics that many on the fringe are driven to by the System shunning them and labelling them as outcasts.
as the System contracts and pushes more folks out of its protective bubble, there are going to be those brushed aside who, up until now, have had the luxury to remain blissfully ignorant. of course their 1st instinct is to react from a point of 'woe is ME' --- that's human nature, at least as it's evolved in Western civilization. don't know about you, but i know i've succumbed to it on more than one occasion, still do.
i guess what i'm trying to say is that we've all made mistakes, the question is when do we make the choice to learn from them? and what is proper response of those who have either avoided those particular mistakes or have learned from them and moved on? do we shun them the same way the System has shunned many of us? or do we welcome them (without necessarily excusing their actions) and encourage them to discover for themselves how & where they were contributing their lives to a System who had no concern for them other than their vote and the product of their labor (and their agreement via their signature to magically will fictitious wealth into existence)?
'anarchy' (though i vehemently disagree with the way Senor Lira uses the term) makes strange bedfellows sometimes, even those that would never consider themselves anarchists.
fwiw, just making conversation. got no clue what the answers should, would or ought to be. that's what's fun about it.
+1, to be continued, Tip. ha, ha. i've ripped this couple to shreds. and they're probably great to have a beer with! :P
in my opinion, the best thing we can do is accumulate gold, silver, and guns and keep our heads relatively low. Its going to get much, much uglier before, as you say, 'the fringe' becomes the majority. ...we're about to become a lot tougher as a people.
I guess you must be a golfer?
funny!
I would have probably put it in a more pinky finger raised way, but BRAVO! You can speak for me anytime my friend!
Agreed, very well put Chindit.
This thread has gone on and on about the moral issues. Most of us, certainly me, have borrowed to buy a house or whatever with the intention of paying it back, and that’s the way it should be. My guess is that Brian and Ilsa fall into that category. I did not get that they can’t pay; yes, their investment income is down and its harder but they can still pay.
So the gubmint enacts HAMP, they qualify, but they are getting jerked around by their bank. I have personal experience through several friends and relatives I am helping. The banks are worse than incompetent, they keep losing papers, keep making empty promises, keep jerking people around. Per one link somewhere above, FNMA and the banks very possibly are doing this on purpose because they make more servicing fees and/or get more gubmint money and/or improve their lot in other ways.
Anyone with half a brain in financial matters saw this all coming; I certainly did, although I didn’t see the overall systemic meltdown or the severity. The bottom line is that the banks, with the full support and urging of the gubmint, worked themselves into a completely obscene orgy of greed, filled with rampant fraud and stupidity, which went so far overboard it blew the whole system. This wasn’t just purchase mortgages, but active and very aggressive solicitation of home equity lines of credit for huge amounts, which for decades any real banker would have considered obscene and a disservice to consumers. For several years, every time I went to WaMu to make a deposit, I had to fight off the commissioned kids trying to hustle HELOCs like pimps hustling johns. Not to mention the culture of credit card debt. And throughout, huge efforts to stick consumers with gotcha fees, jacked up interest rates, etc. Then the gubmint went into an orgy of bailouts, which haven’t fixed anything.
The bottom line is that the average Joe has completely lost respect for the “system”. I have too, although fortunately or unfortunately I still have close to a million in equity in my home so I can’t stick it to the banks. And I know for a fact that this is rapidly becoming a systemic problem, its all around us. And the current meltdown due to foreclosure fraud, document defects, etc. is now adding to this, both by further reducing respect for the banks and because the banks are now in a serious bind.
Let’s keep in mind that despite the “promise to pay”, a lender’s remedies are fixed by law. In many states, including mine, the lender has a right to foreclose but no right to seek additional losses from the borrower (generally speaking). That’s the law – therefore, that’s a provision of the loan, just like it was printed in the loan docs (and this is no surprise at all to the banks, they know it and should have factored it in to their underwriting standards). No different than thousands of commercial real estate loans which are, by negotiation, “non-recourse” beyond the property. Is it morally wrong for a commercial property owner who negotiated a non-recourse loan to walk?
Defaulting has defined consequences, and if someone makes that choice, I am not going to whine about their morals. Do I give a shit about the flippers and gamblers if they end up bust – no, they especially probably “deserve” it. Not quite so much owner-occupied, but if someone went overboard and bought too much house, and/or refied over and over sucking money out to spend on a lifestyle they can’t afford, do they deserve losing their house over it – sure, can’t argue with that. I don’t even think HAMP is a good program.
But turning this around and suggesting someone who exercises their right or option to default (whatever the consequences), and seeking sympathy for the lenders on moral grounds I just can’t buy into.
“Fuckit” is where the majority is quickly heading. That and the foreclosure mess is going to be HUGE. I gots gold and guns, and I’m short the financials. Hang on, its going to be a wild ride!
fair points. +1.
...i still do not like this couple; they're posers.
My friend, I think I understand how you feel. These raised pinky-fingered people need my help? Torn between banks and these people I vote the side of these people! Like Ms. I am not just angry over this mess, I am fucking angry! Pretend banks have your best interest and you can deal with them on a one on one basis and your screwed. Years ago my credit card company sent me a check for 6.9% interest life of loan total credit limit. Hum, I needed some cash son to university, no I will make due and so will he. Then 5.9%, 4.9%, 3.9% and then the magic number 2.9%! How can this be I said? Why can this be I said? Fine print, wow this can't be, it must be wrong! I called, fixed rate life of loan, no fees, total available limit. How can I not do this? I write the check to Emigrant Savings Bank N.Y. for deposit at 4.6% interest. Wow, I am a bank! Paying me to take money doing .nothing but auto pay (great tool) the min. payment. Making money the old raised pinky-fingered way, doing nothing. All is great for three years, then a 40$ fee. How is that a fee? Called bank, we changed that document. I said you can't change the stated conditions of the loan. Nothing happened, called then my Senator Obummer no response ( to busy running for Pres. the day he took office), called Senator Dustbin, Congress no response. Then happened on Senator Bernie Sanders I-Vermont, after a letter and his response he mentioned it on the floor of the Senate. Gee, Mr. we must have made a mistake, we would never do this whole-sale to people. I know what's 40$, it eat into my bank profits, now if I could charge my credit card fees and my deposit bank fees I could really clean up ha! They made the deal not me, they TRIED to change that deal with absolute power they thought. FUCK-UM, I say and if means I a raised pinky-finger have to take sides with these people over banks, done deal! I vote these people need a Robin hood! Like, Ms. I am fucking angry that our government gave away our rights and gave absolute control over us to banks, etc. CD is right, this was planned and the plan isn't finished! Robin hood, oh Robin hood where for are thou oh Robin hood. We need and deserve a Robin hood and if I wasn't a pinky-fingered coward I would take up the cause myself. I am fighting another fight which we have doomed ourselves, energy research. I salute you all with my raised pinky:)
well, "To-Big-To-Fail" banks are an extension of centrally planned money. they own shares in the regional member banks and therefore The Fed itself. these are not our friendly local community banker who knows to whom he is lending, and who among us is good for the loan and who is not. You are absolutely right. These banks need to be brought down in a velvet revolution, or it will get even worse until the revolution gets bloody.
as it relates to this couple: as i said above, i know i seem like one of the biggest heartless bastards on the planet most of the time, but it amazes me how many sacrifices many of us have to make to avoid these debacles, only to be asked to bail out those who lived high on the hog when we were suffering from discipline and going without.
...this couple lived on a golf course with borrowed money. come on, America. there are people in the world that are crippling themselves bending over in rice fields all day long. what about them? they are human beings, no? who do we think we are?
I never thought that i would see the day where i do not even recognize my own countrymen.
I would never let this couple starve if i could help it, but i would let them lose their house on the golf course.
again, this is not to excuse the disaster in our country which is centrally planned money, faith-based fiat currency, and fractional reserve lending. then again, what did this couple do to understand these things and end them? nothing.
I’d like to add an example of the bank’s greed-induced stupidity. A guy I know well in the entertainment business, successful but far from rich, gets suckered into buying three out-of-state golf course lots (not even houses) for $600K each. Despite being unemployed at the time, Wachovia was happy to finance all 3 for virtually all the purchase price. He continued borrowing against his primary home to fund the payments on these lots, as long as he could. Needless to say the 3 lots are long gone now by foreclosure or equivalent. He is still mostly unemployed 4-5 years later. He’s bust, and while he is still clinging to his primary home trying to get help or stave off foreclosure, its most likely that he will lose his primary home. I don’t have any problems with that – he was a complete idiot for investing like he did and that’s the way the cookie crumbles.
But what’s the takeaway? What in God’s name was Wachovia thinking when it made these loans? Obviously they weren’t, because they were securitizing them and selling them. But the system went completely stupid and corrupt, out of pure greed.
Oh, absolutely, Wachovia committed some form of fraud in giving your friend the loan for the lots and again when they securitized them.
There's a very interesting post about this at Market Ticker. Denninger got a hold of a class action lawsuit filed against Countrywide which alleges fraud for those same reasons, among others. Click the link to Market Ticker in the "Zero Hedge Reads" list.
yes, but Wachovia shareholders demanded earnings for each Quarter of the year, so they got them. and the CEO got his bonus. plus, the bank accounts of depositers were FDIC insured by us taxpayers.
so what's the problem?
After being in business for nearly ten years, I went to seek a loan from Bank of America, as guaranteed by the SBA.
First, despite an SBA guarantee BofA wont make the loan. Why? I wasn't asking for enough money to justify the paperwork of filing for an SBA loan.
Second, no one in the banking industry cared what I was going to to with the money. No one ever asked for a business plan ... and no one wanted to see it. What was my credit score?
Really? The only factor that mattered was "What was my credit score?"
The banks and the entire banking industry went bankrupt. All we have left of society is the aftermath of massive fraud and government abuses.
It only ends when the dollar dies.
+1
It's getting ugly out there... the momentum is building. Even mainstream sources are asking how much longer the middle class is going to keep paying the mortgage...
Gonzalo, big thanks for your posting!
But you need to go further in your thinking:
For quite a while now (10 years?) the majority of US citizens has stopped to play by the rules, gaming the system one way or another.
The well-to-do middle class, like Brian & Ilsa or myself, are the only ones left playing by the rules.
And if you think it all the way through, by that we are also the strongest force preventing meaningful change!
We already have under-the-covers anarchy, by Kafkaesque regulations and bureaucracy, and a judiciary that overwhelmingly seems to have lost impartiality, values, and wisdom.
I hope Brian will soon stop paying his mortgage altogether. (I don't have anything I could default on.)
You say "then it’s over for America" - correct, and if you are talking about the America as it is today, wouldn't that be a good thing?
From the "mainstream sources" linked above (WSJ). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704011904575538453320468516.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Moral issues, bank illegalities, the law, the government, who screwed up, who screwed who -- at this point does any of this matter?
Our Wile E. Coyote middle class has stepped away from Acme Banking's defective wares and purchased a new anvil. For comic relief we get to watch Antoinette.gov and Louis.com blithely argue over bonuses, cake flavors, and if they should vacation in Paris or Versailles in 1794.
We all need to focus, listen, and understand what actions like these by the middle class resolve. Do we take a strategic, realistic view that this belies a maneuver selected only by those for whom negotiation is no longer an option? Or do we pull the bag down more firmly over our collective pinheads, dreamily imagining a couple trillion more sparkly magic money bits will make all things okey-dokey? Eh, we all know that answer.
The long contemplated "SHTF" has completed its ride through the blades. Yeah, this is frightening as hell. But you know what? Life is risk and this presages a world of no longer wagering on remote possibilities. It's here. It's real. Now what to do with it?
Woody's gone, but Arlo is still around to write this Depression's anthem:
"Buddy, Can You Spare Me a Green Fee?"
agree with chopper that the true leit motiv of this couple is nothing but avoid payments.
talibanksters priests would never reach so far without a congregation of believers. i certainly guess sara and brian have not lost a single sermon at the church of greed after a life devoted to serve up the last of the commandments of the system ...
I am $, your Lord
you shall have no other true money (as gold is) before me
you shall play golf every sunday...
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
These seem like nice people.
Did they support TARP?
Do they know the attrocities of the Federal Reserve System?
In America, everyone thinks that they are poor ... where's my bailout? Making a bad financial decision doesn't entitle anyone, banks or this nice couple, to a bailout. HAMP and TARP represent what is reprehensible about the American system: rich people getting bailouts.
If the government is giving away free money ... take it. The IRS has no problem sending thugs with guns to throw your butt in jail for your tax dollars, don't pretend that fairness and government are in any way linked together.
Some degree of socialism is necessary. There are people with real disabilities that can't work, can't contribute to society. Unfortunately, all entitlement programs are going to be raided by thieves looking for a free dollar bill. The test for entitlement and the services provided should attend to the basic needs.
Buying soda pop and candy bars with food stamps but no access to toilet paper or tooth paste?
The problem here is the expectations of socialism, the idea that government can and should solve my problems.
This nice couple bought into the expansion of the fiat dollar and surfed the benefits of the giant ponzi scheme of Federal Reserve Notes. The economy roared post WWII and the boomers benefited from the spoils of war and the credit bubble. Much like most Americans, it was okay for someone else to live in poverty and dispair as long as it didn't affect their individual wealth. Now, completely bankrupt, the banks have turned the system on the middle-class ... devouring them in their splendid stupidity.
The banks knew this. The banks planned on this.
Instead of calling their Senator demanding that the Federal Reserve System be shut down, they wine about the difficulties of standing in line for their HAMP bailout package.
.......................................................................................................................................................
A fraud requires some degree of subversion of the truth. After TARP passed, it became apparent to the banks that the American people are so naive about the way money is created that they no longer need any cloaking of the truth.
The lie of the banking system is as obvious a fraud as slavery ... and American's are too complacent with their duties within the complex plantation of America to understand that they are slaves.
$50 bucks says these lovely people and their college-educated kids voted for Obama.
STILL HOPEN
I doubt it. They live in a gated-community in suburban AZ, are white, upper middle-class; and, they are said to be the "salt-of-the-earth". Those are (R) characteristics.
Are you kidding me? This is one of the worst posts I've seen on this site. When you buy a home, you're bound to the terms and conditions you've agreed to, period. Walking away from debt...yeah, that's realistic for the bloggers out there living in their parent's basement drinking red bulls and blogging as if they have a clue about responsibility.
I own a shit pile of realestate, have never defaulted, and never will. Also, won't play the "they're doing it so why should't I" BS...
I can guarantee you this, you don't pay now, it will come back to bite you in the ass later because there is no Anarchy...none period!
Sorry to hear of your real-estate problem. Dead asset for years to come. The feds endless money printer can't save you, sorry. We have the car crash with a side of cancer, done. Now all that is left is a failed bond auction. Yes, I call a FED only purchase of U.S.T. a failed auction. Sorry your toast, unless you own farm land or farm-able land your done.
It's not quite that simple, never is. In foreclosure fraud, the issue is "what are the terms and conditions that have been agreed to" and did those terms and conditions comply with law? The answer appears to be that the terms and conditions were illegal for a variety of reasons, not all of which have been made public as yet.
What we do know, however, is that the terms and conditions were often hidden, often designed so as to thwart traceablility, for an as yet unknown stream of tax reasons, for reasons of securitization fraud and other reasons. What we also know is that those reasons were not thought-through or even commented upon when the banks came calling for, and received, massive bailouts.
It is unwise, in the extreme, to place a moral-overlay onto one side in this scenario; and, to the extent that morality is to be factored in, it belongs first and foremost on the side of the dealers, as is the case in other kinds of fraud and illegality. The best analogy is that of drug dealing because money, like cocaine, is a highly addictive substance.
Hey jplotinis, "(R) Characteristics"...is that bad? Confused becaused the moron up on the hill and all of his drunken monkey (L) Characteristics aren't doing this Country much good. In fact, the largest redistribution of wealth and what I refere to "polite default" is at play. No, polite default isn't the housing debacle, it's when you don't get your social security in 10 years, that's the start of many polite defaults.
Good news Brian and Ilsa. I went to the USGA Rulebook and it says under "Moral Hazard"
The player may:
---Pay it as it lies
---Pay it from a new position after a two percent penalty, maintaining your principle between current market and what you originally paid
---Leave your home in the hazard, walk back to the neighborhood, and pay for a new house, under penalty of 200 points off your credit rating
chindit13,
I feel your wrath, hear your contempt. I see you operating from a very micro position (not wrong, maybe not entirely right). Let me ask you this, how do we transform the system if we continue to participate in it?
We are so brain washed. When this couple walks away, the bank is supposed to eat it, not the US taxpayer. Everyone is getting pissed at this couple calling them leaches and screaming they don't want to pay for them if they default. WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO THIS IS A PERVERSION OF OUR SYSTEM, NOT A GIVEN.
The real enemy is the Congress and the Fed who set up the situation where this could happen. This is supposed to be a business deal between Brian and Ilsa and their bank. NOT ALL OF US. Don't blame Brian and Ilsa for that. We are making conflated assumptions about things that should never have been conflated.
How do we bring a halt to this system if we keep supporting it by paying into it? Let me know that, and I could support your point of view, tell them to honor their agreement with their bank. Otherwise, we are subjugated sheep saying "Thank you sir, can I have another one!" after each beating.
I really respect what you have to say here, but on this one you look like you are fixated on a strictly micro level point of view. If we keep playing they will keep raping.
BTW, thanks for helping that girl you met. I was a homeless kid with homeless parents for many years. There were people like you who helped me when my parents were too ignorant to do the right thing. Much better than an Obama could do, you gave her real hope. You showed her some people in the world are kind and genuinely care. That seed got planted in her heart, she might have a better chance of making it. Just knowing people like that are out there, might help her want to be one of them instead of passively replicating what she is in. Dude, that is strong medicine. It's the only reason I made it.
MsCreant,
I wrote a long answer in response, but it is a little too wordy and gives more detail than I care to post. If TD is willing, he can give you the email I have on record here, and you can send from a mailbox of your choice to me. I'll respond to that.
All the best.
I have submitted a request. I imagine they are crazy busy so I am not hopeful about it. I do understand your desire to not go into detail. I probably give way too much detail on my own life, but I do it in the classroom and in my writing as a heuristic device, anyway, so it is kind of an ingrained habit now.
All the best to you as well.
Really love your writings strait from reallity.
Your writings are one of the best wake up calls
I've seen on the internet,just keep them coming!!
This article was an interesting read. However, I disagree with the point of the middle-class being the 'backbone' of America. Taxpayers are the backbone of any nation, regardless of class.
Where is the outrage? Where are the protests? We are all waiting for someone else to do it. We deserve the slavery we are being dragged into. This once great country is dying with a whimper before our eyes...
http://www.stungunstopepperspray.com/
It's "Starving the Beast" ...and rightfully so!
http://www.buyhomesincharleston.com/blog/reverse-mortgages.html
With apologies to Gonzalo and the makers of Casablanca.
*****
It's night time. The scene is a desert airport outside of the same city where Gonzalo's Cafe American is the center of intrigue. Everyone wants to leave the desert but no one can. All of their credit scores have been ruined by the real estate crash. Somehow, Gonzalo has come into possession of Visas, the most desirable thorium cards, with no balance on them.
Mary Shapiro and the staff of the SEC have been looking for them, when not surfing internet porn sites, but couldn't find them in the 20 remaining minutes of each work day.
Gonzalo tells her that he'll turn them over to her so long as she lets him and Ilsa leave on the last plane out. Mary's corporate overlords at Berkshire Hathaway and elsewhere seem to accept this, so she arranges to meet Gonzalo there at the airport. But Gonzalo has a surprise in store for her. He comes to the airport armed and gives the Visas to Ilsa for her to fly off with her dullard husband, Brian instead.
Mary's furious. Strategic default! But there's nothing she can do but watch as Gonzalo sorts things out with Ilsa and Brian by the edge of the hanger.
Ilsa: No, Gonzalo!
Gonzalo: Ilsa! If that plane leaves the ground without you on it, you'll regret it. Maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow but soon and for the rest of your life or at least 5 to 10. They can't make married couples testify against each other. But we'll always have the suburbs. We lost them but then we got them back. Remember when you were the first one on your block to have a plasma flat screen?
Ilsa: I said I'd never leave you if you provided better than Brian . .
Gonzalo: Ilsa, I'm no good at being noble but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of two shallow status climbers and a freelance writer don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Some day you'll understand that but now . .
Gonzalo kisses her and waves her over to Brian loading luggage into the plane.
Gonzalo and Mary Shapiro move off to the edge of the runway and have just gotten there when, suddenly, Charlie Munger, in a black leather coat with a Luger sidearm pulls up in a convertible.
Munger: What's the meaning of this? Who's on that plane? They have no right. We own Wells Fargo and Wells foreclosed on that private jet company! That's bank property! They're running away from their mortgage aren't they?! Aren't they?! They owe that money to me and W-, I mean, to the bank! They owe that money to the bank!
(Munger pulls out his iPhone and starts dialing the local police. But he can't get more than one bar.)
Munger: Fucking AT&T.
Gonzalo(now brandishing his 45): Put that down!
Munger(dialing again just the same): Oh, suck it up! Warren and I own this-
BANG! BANG!
Two shots ring out. Munger slumps to the ground and craps his pants as he dies. Mary Shapiro is stunned. She's never witnessed actual justice being done before. "So . . this is what it's like," she mumbles.
Just as she does, a car roars up, screeching to a halt as the private jet takes off into the desert skies behind them. Four SEC lackeys jump out of the car. Three continue watching porn on their iPads all the while. There's a tense moment. Gonzalo stares at Mary Shapiro not knowing what she'll do. The one lackey not distracted by porn notices the terrible smell coming from the prostrate form of Charlie Munger and that he's dead.
Mary Shapiro: It's Waddell and Reed's fault! Put out a press release to that effect.
The lackeys, seemingly practiced in this sort of thing, stuff Charlie Munger's redolent corpse into a body bag and throw it in the trunk of their car. One is heard to mumble something about necrophilia.
Mary Shapiro (turns to Gonzalo and they start walking off the tarmac): Gonzalo, it might be a good idea for you to leave this area. There's a free market garrison somewhere in a place called Galt's Gulch.
Gonzalo: What about you?
Mary Shapiro: This might not be the best place for me, either. Besides, seeing actual justice and liking it makes me think I might not be long for the SEC. Maybe I'll join you.
Gonzalo: It's a long way from the SEC to a free market, Mary. And things might get . . rough. What if I treat you like you've treated investors?
Mary Shapiro: That'll be fine, Gonzalo.
Gonzalo(muttering): She likes S&M!
Mary Shapiro: Huh?
Gonzalo: I said, this looks like the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Great stuff!!
We all know this is fiction because Mary wouldn't know justice if she saw it. It isn't in her bones.
This won't end til it ends. The owners of the Federal Reserve (and other central banks)are what lurks in the background running the show. Until a large amount of people understand this and the fraud they perpetuate (counterfeiting money), it will continue. The threat of jail, fines and property seizure will not go away until the people "get it"...and at this point, they don't. Participation in the game must stop now...don't go to work, stop paying all bills...close it down! That will end it. Keep feeding the thief and it will continue...that's all there is to it. So simple, yet so distant for many (most it seems).
Yes, Brian and Ilsa played by the rules and where has it got them? In amerika, the banks don't play by the rules (nor the rest of the gooferment) and where has it go them? Who wins and who loses? It's pretty apparent to us. Laws are made for the little people...sure seems that way. Doing nothing means nothing gets done.
One question I have for Brian and Ilsa...you are in your 60's and have a mortgage (French for death pledge)...that is not a wise thing to do. In my book of rules, you don't do that. Next rule, no matter what it is, prices never go up forever unless you don't adjust for currency debasement...and if you don't adjust prices over the long term for currency debasement, you have been tricked.
I don't understand why so many didn't see this coming. The huge demographic of "boomers" entering retirement age meant real estate would top out because they will no longer be able to afford their over-sized homes and beemers. Unless you have a large demographic following, the odds of continuing this real estate scam are slim. Of course, as the owners of the Federal Reserve (and their "partners") saw this and exploited it.
Unfortunately, the "baby boomer" generation, due to their lack of collective common sense (financially) have screwed things up big time...which I'm sure their kids will someday see.
The middle chart is GLD/SLV. You can see this is an excellent indicator, when this ratio is at a bottom, the market usually tanks, within 3 to 5 days, but sometimes immediately. The trick is figuring out when the bottom is.
This top chart is SPY/VIX I plotted it just to see if any interesting effects came up....none really
The Bottom chart is SPX, the S&P 500, follow each purple line from the GLD/SLV bottoms. Amazing methinks. The two highlighted candle patterns are similar, the first one started the Head of the infamous 2009 Head and Shoulders Bear trap. The second one is NOW.
And finally, a boatload of other charts for your free consumption.
Like this stuff? Sign up as a follower and then follow on your Google reader.
http://oahutrading.blogspot.com/
Whether Brian & Ilsa keep on paying or not, really isn't the point. Too many folks seem to want to personalise the situation and judge anyone who is written about as a case study example. Stop doing that, and look at the facts. Which are:
Our golfing couple don't even know -just like almost all of the rest of us- whether they are paying their monthly instalments to the right people, or to someone way back up the line. It just so happened that this monumental shambles became too big to hide when the banks started foreclosing. In one sense we should be glad there were some ninjas who acted as unwitting trailblazers. Just wait til the honest & honourable try to sell their houses and find they actually have never 'successfully' made a single mortgage payment despite years of payng somebody.
No. 2 -The HAMP failure now makes complete sense. No wonder they didn't want to approve any HAMP applications because the missing title documents would have been spotted.
No. 3 -Who on earth thought a pile of mortgages could be sliced and diced, and everyone would make money -except in a world of fraud? If the only person who is paying out (the homeowner) is only contributing (say) 5% in interest, then where is the profit for all these other layers? The profit of course is in playing fraudulent insurance games and the like. A gummint bail-out of course helps.
No. 4 -Greed is not a religious, creed or colour thing. It is a black cancer in all of us, and some of us try to resist. I suggest the entire banking fraternity's uncontrolled and shameless worshipping of money dates from the 1980's explosion in employment and technology, nothng much to do wth jews, goyims, or gefilte fish.
No. 5 -In the Middle Ages, the poor didn't understand what their kings, lords, barons were up to, (all too complicated) and assumed a life of serfdom was all they were entitled to. We look back a those times (and remember history books don't have a good record of presenting unbiased truth) and laugh at their naive stupidity. Surprise, surprise, look at us now, fooled and conned, and ill-served by a captive media who claimed to be on our side.
No. 6 -No need for conspiracy theories, this is a simple war. The monied classes don't really need a middle class, they want just a rich and a poor. The problem is, being rich doesn't make them smart, rather the opposite. They assume the more wealth they have, the more respect they are entitled to. You betcha.
So many people posting, maybe a wave has started.
So now the revolutionist are concerned about the racist -bigoted American crackers ... hilarious!
Gonzalo, been patiently waiting for you to tell us all about how much you love MMT here ... you tease.
I have read this thread for two days and just a couple points.
Stop the moralizing and handwringing over this couples supposed moral duty to pay on this note. They have a contract, all the morality and duties are spelled out in that contract. The banks remedy to seize the property and the sanctions for failure to service the note are spelled out clearly, save the speeches on morality for actual criminal behaviour. The banks are plainly guilty of if not breaking then skirting law in the name of greed and incredible hubris, that can be assessed a moral value. This couples belief that the good times never end cannot. Many banks and the MBA have defaulted but this couple is expected to be the moral standard: the contract rules. Short sightedness does not carry a moral penalty.
If your basis for arguing their corrupted morals is that ultimately you, the taxpayer will pick up the tab, who is responsible for that? We are, all of us, we have allowed the capture of our Government by these people. Our lifestyle has allowed them to write the rules and ensnared us in this mess and now we will pay that bill.
One more thought, the foolish person calling for violence above will draw unwanted attention to this site, tone it down or hopefully you will be sanctioned. This site is precious and too important to allow you to damage it.
+1
all fair points. velvet revolution. go to the polls and speak.
Interesting post and thoughtful (for the most part) comments.
Isn't the solution simple-- "Don't borrow money that you can't pay back" ?
End all FED interest pament, stiff em the GOVTs debt then abolish the FED. Case closed, freedom restored per TJ & AJ.
Well writ GL.
Too bad the USA is not Chile and you do not grok economics or markets.
CA just sold Reagan and other buildings, while Greece sold islands.
This is not hyperinflation.
It is debt default deflation that strengthens the dollar, currently targeting 115 from 70.70.
http://stockcharts.com/charts/gallery.html?%24USD
Wait until the Deficit Commission cuts entitlements and raises taxes after the mid-term elections and all pension funds are raided and taxed.
All anarchists posting might better recall ISPs a permanent record.
http://www.infowars.com/
"There can be only one permanent revolution – a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself."
-Leo Tolstoy
http://tolstoyandpeace.wordpress.com/tolstoy-on-non-violence/on-anarchy-...
+1. thanks for posting.
I disagree.
Once enough of these J. Crew Anarchists decide they no longer give a fuck, it's MORNING for America.
The worst thing about anarchy is that if you don't diligently defend it, the entire country collapses into government.
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