• Sprott Money
    05/06/2016 - 06:03
    The US, in its own decline, is showing this same self-destructive tendency. The worse things get, the greater the inclination of the citizenry to say, “Carry on, everything’s fine.”

Guest Post: Democracy And Its Contradictions

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Sun, 02/13/2011 - 19:53 | 958379 Racer
Racer's picture

In the UK, the way the voting system is, the Labour party have to get very few of the votes to control, in comparison to a massive, massive need for a majority for the Liberal Party, so by default the Lib Dems will never get in full power even if a lot of the people vote for them... that is NOT democracy at all

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 20:42 | 958477 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

This is government capture of a democracy.   There are so many people entirely dependent on and beholden to government largesse, that this single block of people vote always for the (or one of the) "government party(/ies)," whatever they happen to call themselves.    In a parliamentary system, this yields a permanent majority for left of center and leftoide parties to such a degree that the moderate right ends up looking extreme.  

The conservatives aren't any such thing in most such places on the planet, and even the "extreme right" parties are actually just statist, socialist parties with a nationalistic or xenophobic flair.    Those fringe views exclude the moderate right from making coalitions with them, and it is probably just as well because the so called far right parties are also just big government parties.

This phenomenon is of course not limited to Europe.  California is already there.   It is run by the government for the government, so large and so coddled have become the mass of state employees and their objective allies the permanent welfare class.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 21:42 | 958600 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Here's a citation, but most widely known, e.g."

"When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional convention, he was asked by a woman, “Sir, what did you give us?” 


Franklin replied, “A Republic ma’am, if you can keep it.” 

Most Americans today are persuaded today that our American system is a Democracy and not a Republic. The difference between these two is essential in understanding Americanism and the American System."
http://knol.google.com/k/artur-landerzon-barrera-garcia/u-s-republic-or-... - Ned
Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:19 | 958664 G-R-U-N-T
Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:22 | 958668 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

us grunts gotta stick together ;-)

03? 11? or just another knuckledragger?

'night

- Ned

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:30 | 958682 G-R-U-N-T
G-R-U-N-T's picture

Our own individual freedom is the proper limitation of government.

Those of us that have a true critical sense of what true freedom represents have always risen to the occasion and have understood either innately or through recovery from oppression exactly what Mr. Franklin means and what a republic represents.

'night ;-)

 

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 23:24 | 958755 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

Many Americans would be surprised to learn the word “Democracy” does not appear in the Declaration of Independence or the U.S. Constitution. Nor does it appear in any of the Constitutions of the 50 states. The Founders did everything they could to keep us from having a democracy.

 

http://knol.google.com/k/artur-landerzon-barrera-garcia/u-s-republic-or-...

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 05:33 | 959139 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Franklin replied, “A Republic ma’am, if you can keep it.” 

 

As if the priority of threat in the 18th century was socalled democracy.

What people want to believe...

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 13:29 | 960035 sunkeye
sunkeye's picture

t/y for this

im smarter for reading it

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:00 | 958633 Devout Republican
Devout Republican's picture

Should'a gone with Nixon's health care bill instead of this crazed leftist nobamacare.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/September/03/nixon-proposal.aspx

 

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 04:17 | 959096 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

obama's not a leftist.  he is a toady of the rich and the corporations.  he has extended the police state established/enhanced by george w bush.  he may be a muslim born in kenya (i doubt it) but he is not a progressive/liberal/socialist/marxist/leftist.

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 12:10 | 959720 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

The distinction between liberal and conservative is simple: liberals want to expand the size and scope of government and conservatives do not.  The entirety of our congressional lot (and executives) are liberals... 

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:02 | 958639 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

mebbe californication iz run by pi-ratz and the goobermint stoolies are our slaves.  things got really baaad here after "they" re-called gov. jefferson "grey" davis, b/c of uhhhh,...enronesque fukaroni via pacific graft and extortion (PG&E). 

the permanen-toes rule. 

the goobermen-toes have gotz nothin' coming, except their own turds, baked into the pi.  and, they're even starting to figure that out, themselves!!!  we can now hear the sound of one sphinXtor clapping.  yours.  they are about to becum permanen-toes, 2, docha see, brainiac?  well, 80% of dum.

i don't have any idea where you live or whatcha do, sir, but i suspect ya mighta OD'd on the MSM abt 40 years ago, and heaven't bin rehabilatittied, yet, asswipe.  if ya ever get out for some fresh air and exXxercise, why doncha stop by the catholic church nearest the hispanic mark-ette nearest yer freaking gate-tred commuministry, ok?  notice any BEanerz?  wtf is going on w/ that shit?  anywho?

well, sir, an organization known for its subversive tendencies, and whose last name rimes w/"parodies" has been contolling immigration since, well, 1975 and the fall of sai-gon, sir.  Nothing more cosmic than a pissed-off nun, is there?  let's see what happened to jake and elwood, ok? YouTube - James Brown- blues brothers

and, they seem to like mexicans, possibly b/c if anybody fuks one of their kids in those cute little but-toX, he will get his balls cut off, if he's lucky.  and, perhapz even a shitforbrained moron like you, sir, can understand that there just might B some polit-i-cal and relig-iou-s dimensionz involved here, aussiz.  maybe those generallissimo-toes (bishopz?  on the chessboard?) are gonna try to get them to kill chinese, someday, for j.c.  who knowz? 

you have heard the ONE about how can you tell when the chinese are moving into the neightborhood, haven't you, sir?

well, in case those MSM cunt puppetz you get yer "news" from haven't toldya the "punch" line, it goes like this:

how can you tell when the chinese are moving into the neighborhood, eh?

the mexicans start buying car insurance!

Hahahaha!!!

you have now bin rehabbed, sir.  welcome to the waking weak!YouTube - Elvis Costello -"..Working Week/...Go To Chelsea" Letterman

here'z yer re-hab cert, bro.  carry onzo!  got cash?

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 23:59 | 958804 Jus7tme
Jus7tme's picture

I think TBT missed the point. The post (by Racer) he replied to was (indirectly) talking about the lack of proportional representation in Britain's and the US our congressional voting system.

TBT, your thesis that government employees vote themselves or their lackeys into power is also rubbish. The government is controlled by the financial elite (< 1% of the population). The only reason they let Obama win was to set up a scapegoat to blame for all the things that THEY (the elite) had engineered in the previous 8 years (or 30 years, but who's counting?).

 

 

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 01:34 | 958939 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Oh, OK, so it isn't the outcome of elections, you know how people vote on election day, that determines who votes in our laws and appoints our judges.   It's some secretive illuminatiesque 1% shooting the electorate with eeevil mind rays. 

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:14 | 958638 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

The problem with a democracy is that individual voters are counted as equal among each other, no matter how knee-buckling retarded someone might be. The best way to remedy this problem is to give different voters different powers, just as some states are given different electoral weightings.  

For instance, your vote should be given an automatic deduction for any of the following:

  • You drive a Camaro with an bald eagle stenciled on the hood
  • You're a libertarian redneck who thinks America should return to its "Gunsmoke" roots. 
  • You have a mustache, and you think women are impressed by it 
  • You're completely obsessed with which "token" a country uses to denominate its currency, and you miss the fact that the plutocrats will always transfer your labor into their wealth using any "token" they want
  • You think that weather patterns in the Gulf of Mexico are caused by homosexuals in California
  • You think a machine gun is an appropriate defense against burglars
  • You high-five your wife when you hear, "Gentlemen, start your engines"
  • You think that an exchange of one US government debt instrument for another US government debt instrument affects cotton prices in Egypt
  • You think that increasing gross profit margins at the world's largest retailer and the world's largest fast-food restaurant is immaterial when discussing price inflation
  • You think the Gilded Age in American history is an example of how America experienced prosperity under the gold standard
  • You think the cruelty of survival-of-the-fittest that you see among animals in Nature should be applied to humans in civilized society
  • When your neighbor get cancer and looses everything, your reply is "tough fucking luck, but God works in mysterious ways and the world is too populated for this year's corn crops anyway....so whatever..."
  • You think the Earth is 6,000 years old and fossils are tricks 
  • Your grocery store calls you when they run out of canned hams
  • You jizz in your pants every time silver is projected to hit $500/oz, especially when coupled with the idiotic catch-phrase, "price doesn't matter"
Etc. Etc. Etc...     So basically, if you believe in all points listed above, your vote would counted as a -15 for your candidate. Please note that I didn't even mention Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann or other conservative "super-retards" because, quite frankly, I didn't want to alienate everyone here.    

 

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:15 | 958659 nmewn
nmewn's picture

But's it's still a good thing that a ward of the state get's a full vote on what their next paycheck will be.

Right?

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:22 | 958669 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

No.

If your mother gets a medicare check, she shouldn't be allowed to vote - especially if she has a $250,000 liver transplant pending.  

Is that the "ward of the state" you're referring to?

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:26 | 958678 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

another country heard from.  Good attempt to change the subject.

Welcome back RnR-let's play!

- Ned

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:44 | 958699 nmewn
nmewn's picture

RNR,

LOL.

So, according to the "progressive" mind, the "right" to vote is contingent on how much the state has invested in you?...how...ummm, "democratic" ;-)

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:43 | 958698 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

RnR: Here's something that you can buy (aligned with your pov) and skosh money: e.g.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=philip+administra...

In your system, well ... meet your better person.  Of course, he won't meet you, since you are beneath himself.

-enjoy

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 23:03 | 958727 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

My better person?   

By the way, here's a picture of me at a recent Republican fundraising event entitled, "Hurricanes and Avalanches:  God's wrath against Homosexuals and Scientists"

http://www.peregrinefox.com/Pix/AnimeExpo2004/AnimeExpoManFaye0704200400...

 

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 00:08 | 958821 vxpatel
vxpatel's picture

Naughty boy!

 

OBAMA/PALIN 2012!

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 01:12 | 958923 Bob
Bob's picture

Nader/Paul!

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 02:55 | 959020 slewie the pi-rat
Mon, 02/14/2011 - 03:50 | 959077 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

patel & bob:

YouTube - James Brown- blues brothers

got CASH???

peace.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:51 | 958709 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

If people only understood that Plato felt democracy was for the elite only, we wouldn't have this misunderstanding. Great list.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:59 | 958714 Astute Investor
Astute Investor's picture

-1

You think that increasing gross profit margins at the world's largest retailer and the world's largest fast-food restaurant is really an illicit scheme by the respective management teams to defraud their customers by raising prices and claiming "inflation" as an excuse when none exists.

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 04:10 | 959090 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

I already have all the canned ham I need buried in my backyard.

-15? You still vote?

I was the #14 junk. We're almost there. 

Democracy is a bitch. 

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 04:24 | 959099 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

I already have all the canned ham I need buried in my backyard....

Based on some of your posts, I figured you probably have a few dozen hidden around the yard. 

When you invite your family over for Thanksgiving, is this your method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NL7nP61-hk&feature=related

??

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 04:47 | 959112 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

That was weak. Does the late hour waver your smarts?

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 08:15 | 959231 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

Keep it simple stupid, onlya Net Taxpayer should be able to vote

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 20:03 | 958404 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

league 0' the iroquois, BiCHeZ.

longhouse4longhoserz.  brewery included, of course.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 20:54 | 958406 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

sachemz

hoserz, quebec hoisted the maple leaf.  along w/QEII, eh?  at least on the do-re-mi...

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 21:44 | 958602 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

'ha ha ha, frite a l'huile, frite au beure et a l'ongnion!"

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 20:10 | 958412 zhandax
zhandax's picture

It should be pointed out that the founding fathers did not create a democracy in the US.  They created a Republic "if you can keep it".  We couldn't.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 20:42 | 958465 AnonymousAnarchist
AnonymousAnarchist's picture

Not just "we", no one could. Once the state is created (regardless of type), there is no mechanism to contain it. Sure, early on, when the virus hasn't had a chance to do much damage, it might seem better but the virus is still there. The point is, supporters of the state don't know they're infected (part of the intro to a stateless society).

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 21:11 | 958541 destiny
destiny's picture

I second this excellent comment...and thanks for the link.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 21:55 | 958623 Nikao7
Nikao7's picture

Hence there needing to be a revolution and abolishment of The Government every 25 years.  Jefferson,  I believe.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:50 | 958705 AnonymousAnarchist
AnonymousAnarchist's picture

The question then becomes, why give a group of people the authority to commit crimes in the first place?

Of course, this question is rhetorical. It's because too many people still believe a group of people with the authority to commit crimes is necessary for social order. If enough of these people ceased believing the myth (that the state is necessary or legitimate), there would no longer be any state to revolt against. That's why I put so much importance on attacking that myth. Because once one stops believing it, the fact that it's a myth becomes obvious (pdf).

Who says anarchy, says negation of government;

Who says negation of government, says affirmation of the people;

Who says affirmation of the people, says individual liberty;

Who says individual liberty, says sovereignty of each;

Who says sovereignty of each, says equality;

Who says equality, says solidarity or fraternity;

Who says fraternity, says social order;

 

Who says government, says negation of the people;

Who says negation of the people, says affirmation of political authority;

Who says affirmation of political authority, says individual dependency;

Who says individual dependency, says class supremacy;

Who says class supremacy, says inequality;

Who says inequality, says antagonism;

Who says antagonism, says civil war;

From which it follows that who says government, says civil war.

 

Anselme Bellegarrigue - Anarchist Manifesto, (1850)

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 20:40 | 958475 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Sadly, true.

Democracy is anti-individual not pro-individual. All it takes is 51% and the other 49% must bow to majority will. A perpetual state of misery & infighting for all.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 21:04 | 958525 zhandax
zhandax's picture

When the current state was created, we had just won a war and had time to contemplate what type of societal structure we wanted.  When the current state collapses we are unlikely to have that luxury.  Watch how things develop in Egypt.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:08 | 958646 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"When the current state was created, we had just won a war and had time to contemplate what type of societal structure we wanted."

Years of contemplation, by people who were a helluva lot more respectful of the people they served than our current crop.

It's completely upside down now.

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:39 | 958690 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

zhandax:

"Watch how things develop in Egypt."

Yep, been doing that and sparring a bit with GW, since he thinks that 3 weeks of "peaceful" protests by less than 1.5% of the population is sufficient for a) military coup, b) abrogation of their constitution, and c) getting rid of their legislature, and d) ... well, ... the next declaration has not yet eventuated.  But he's good with the process so far.

GW (and perhaps you, please let us know) thinks that the restructuring has to be fast...fast ... faster ... faster.

I know others who wish to avoid wasting a 'good crisis' so 'this situation will never happen again.'

When the current state collapses (as you say) then I'd say to have it collapse into 1789 (as ammended).

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html

but please let us know where you think things should collapse.  If they are sufficiently hot, then I have these whole large piles of snow that I'd like to dump, 'cuz they are interfering with traffic around here.

- Ned

 

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 23:36 | 958781 zhandax
zhandax's picture

OK, perhaps I left too much unsaid in that post.  It wasn't until a day or so ago when someone here pointed out the definition of anarchy as opposed to the popular conception of the term that I considered a 'stateless society'.  I doubt that anyone here believes that we can just go to the polls and vote ourselves some change in that direction.  It will require a collapse of the current state.  However, if and when that collapse occurs there will likely be no time to contemplate what type societal structure we want because of the immediate attempted power grabs which arise from the chaos and the necessity of fending off the most objectionable of them.

Personally I think the Republic served us pretty well but it was yet another casualty of the Civil War.

 

Mon, 02/14/2011 - 02:59 | 959023 slewie the pi-rat
Sun, 02/13/2011 - 22:02 | 958637 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

back in sorta' like sixth grade, I had this great teacher, now I'm recognizing Joan as a 'progressive'.

'No, the majority doesn't rule, all minority opinions must be considered'

'The Consitution is so old, we need to consider our current conditions'

'The UN needs to reconcile the interests of all states.'

I'll revere the lady to the last, but, well, I'm kinda' glad that counter-examples of above have entered into my view, so I can look at a decision.

- Ned

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 21:48 | 958612 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

you, sir, beat me to this truth.  But I have more faith that we 'can.'

near run thing, imho.  (But I've played with some of the amazing kids.)

- Ned

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 23:26 | 958761 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

tell our president and MSM

Sun, 02/13/2011 - 20:11 | 958413 SwingForce
SwingForce's picture

I only read "Contradictions", and bullshitery at that. Try again.

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