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Guest Post: The Domination of Government And The Decline Of Self-Reliance And Community

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Submitted by Charles Hugh Smith from Of Two Minds

The Domination of Government and the Decline of Self-Reliance and Community


Is there a causal connection between the rise of the dominant Savior State and the decline of self-reliance and community? How could it not be a causal factor?

The now-classic book Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community (2001, by Robert Putnam) documented the steep decline of community and "social capital" in the U.S.:

Television, two-career families, suburban sprawl, generational changes in values--these and other changes in American society have meant that fewer and fewer of us find that the League of Women Voters, or the United Way, or the Shriners, or the monthly bridge club, or even a Sunday picnic with friends fits the way we have come to live. Our growing social-capital deficit threatens educational performance, safe neighborhoods, equitable tax collection, democratic responsiveness, everyday honesty, and even our health and happiness.

While the causal connections between the decline of community and TV, the Internet, two-earner households, suburban sprawl and long commutes, etc., are visible in a common-sense fashion, they miss the primary unspoken causal factor: the growing domination of the Central "Savior" State in every aspect of the economy and society.

From an anthropological or natural-selection point of view--i.e. one informed by sociobiology-- community and marriage alike are at root highly advantageous survival techniques: a group has far more resources than a similar number of isolated individuals, and offspring are more likely to survive and prosper if two parents are devoting resources to their upbringing rather than only one adult is carrying that burden.

In nations dominated by Savior States, there is less reason to invest in community or self-reliance, because the government handles everything.

There is no need to pick up litter in your neighborhood, because it's somebody's job in local government to pick up trash. (When was the last time you saw anyone pick up trash or litter in your neighborhood, town or city?)

There is no need to tutor your own child if they are performing poorly in school--that's the school's job. (This is what teachers hear all the time--"that's your job." Oh really? It's my job to get your kid to do homework instead of surfing the Web or watching TV? How many parents even know what their child is studying, beyond the title of the class?)

If Grandma is lonely then the government should provide a van and staffing to take her to the government-paid senior center.

While many people profess to "get it" that they won't be receiving any Social Security pension when they retire, exactly how has this realization informed their daily finances? Are they making the radical self-reliance adjustments needed to respond to the devolution of the Savior State?

How about Medicare? What are people doing in their day-to-day life to prepare for a future in which the Savior State can't "fix" whatever is wrong with their health? (My Mom has reported that some of her elderly acquaintances have baldly stated that they don't need to adjust their unhealthy lifestyle because "Medicare will give me a new (failing bit).")

We are constantly reassured that "there is plenty of money" for all the Savior State's vast (and ever-expanding) obligations, yet simple grade-school math calls all these happy assumptions into question. Even if we taxed the top 1% at a rate of 70%, that wouldn't be enough to fund the $100 trillion+ future obligations of Medicare, which rises inexorably by 6% a year even as the underlying economy grows at best at a rate of 2%.

Right now, as the 65 million-strong baby Boom generation has barely begun to retire, the nation is running a monumental deficit of $1.6 trillion (more if off-balance sheet borrowing is included), fully 12% of the nation's entire GDP. As I have documented here, Social Security is running deficits in 2011 that weren't supposed to occur until 2018.

There is no limit on the demands of citizens for "more more more" from the Savior State. There "should be" affordable housing for all, heightened security everywhere to keep us safe at all times (how about 200 million security cameras, as a start), and so on. Each Savior State project is needed, necessary, must-have to those receiving the funding.

In such a mindset and politics of experience, then the advantages provided by self-reliance and community wither. The world is complex, and it's the government's job to figure it all out, so we do't need to be informed or to vote. Or, the government is now so big, it doesn't make a difference how we vote.

And why exactly is it now so big, so dominant, so intrusive and so addicted to borrowing to fund its spending? Could it be that people want more "services" but they reject paying for them via higher taxes? This is precisely what polls have found.

In psychology, a dysfunctional, crippling relationship is called "co-dependent." The "taker" dependent on the "giver" is reduced to sullen resentment and abject terror should the "giver" withdraw support; on the other side, the "giver" is sullenly resentful of the burdens imposed by a demanding "taker" who never seems to get healthier or more independent.

Perhaps the dynamic between an ever-more dominant Savior State and a resentful, complicit, dependent-on-bread-and-circuses citizenry is best described as dysfunctionally co-dependent.

Promise people everything--education, housing, safety, retirement, healthcare, job placement, entertainment, the arts, you name it, regardless of their output and engagement--and what need do they have for "old" systems of "social capital" support such as community, marriage, church and other free associations that require commitment, reciprocity and tolerance for others?

Clearly, there are functions such as national defense and protecting the citizenry from predation that government is designed to fulfill. But the evolution from a government tasked with limiting predation and exploitation to a Savior State for all is not as "win-win" as it is commonly depicted by enthusiasts buoyed by their rock-solid faith in the government's printing presses to "pay for everything for everybody forever."

The costs are not just financial. The government has paid for the lane, it's our "right," so now we bowl alone.

 

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Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:32 | 1287211 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

conservatives and the tea party have been preaching self responsibility/discipline for some time.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:00 | 1287357 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yeah, that must be why Nixon (a conservative president) took us off the gold standard and every conservative president since has increased the deficit during their term.

Still believing in that two-party lie?  Your politicians speak for the central banking cartel and not you.

PMs demand accountability, because NO government representative, party shill, or harvard trained fuckwad economist can create them out of thin air.  Markets and economies that refuse to deal with the fraud they create will die as capital (in many forms) and talent will see the fraud and find another market to participate in.  History shows this over and over. 

I love how those "conservatives" love to have wars that they can not afford, yeah, that's discipline for you.  Care to bet me an ounce of gold that that "conservative"-controlled house of representatives will still vote to raise the debt ceiling?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:02 | 1287399 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

Deconstructing the dualistic and simplistic model is a good place to start. Both sides thing the other is the childish "dark side" of the Force. For some it feels like an atavistic impulse that must be an inherent truth of the human condition. Sure, Marx said some smart things but the bipolar model reads like a fairy tale.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:13 | 1287453 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yes.  I guess the real question becomes, what happens when all the world markets become corrupt and capital and talent has no where to really "go" per se?  I'll hold my physical gold and silver just the same and still play the markets when obvious trades present themselves.  

One does wonder when do humans recognize the finite nature of their existence and devise an appropriate economic model?  Do they ever?  Just the same, I'll stay self-sufficient and make sure my neighbors do likewise.  I have this funny feeling that, regardless of the fiat currency in play, economies are going to become increasingly more "local".

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:50 | 1287636 ex VRWC
ex VRWC's picture

I can only say, in a nutshell, your comment is far too indicative of the attitude around here.

You say the world markets are corrupt, then you say you play them when obvious trades present themselves.  Does that make you corrupt?

You cay that humans need to devise an appropriate economic model, and you say your strategy is to hold PMs.  Is that a component of an 'appropriate economic model?'

I am not picking on you in particular, I just find it striking how we can all talk about how corrupt and doomed it all is while strategizing how we play it for maximum advantage for ourselves.  

What constitutes a 'principled stand' in these times?  I don't think 'hold PMs and trade' is really it.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:01 | 1287720 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"Does that make you corrupt?"

To do nothing, is to allow the corruption to continue.  I look for and support equities that bring real value to the economy.  I do my own homework and I still need to pay bills.  If everyone did the same thing, bad business models would eventually fail.  Get busy living or get busy dying dude. If you see a problem, get off your ass, do your homework and at least try to make a difference instead of just blogging about it.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:17 | 1287797 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

It's ok to say that the nanny state (and its FED enablers) make us all corrupt...  albeit to differing degrees.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:15 | 1293382 ex VRWC
ex VRWC's picture

Wow assuming much aren't we.  I find 'ways to make a difference' as you say while operating 3 separate businesses that employ people or get money to them in some way or another.  I fail to see how trading the market will help bad business models (such as the FIRE economy) to fail.  If you search my posts you will find I have little time to blog, and I have things I am doing to 'try and make a difference'.

For me, I don't trade the market in any way. I have completely checked out of the casino.  Just because the game is there does not mean I have to play it.  I also do not participate in the debt based economy.  I am forced to pay taxes so I do that.

My comment was not directed at anyone in particular, just in general, we will not look at how our own actions fuel the system we decry so much.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:17 | 1287786 Missiondweller
Missiondweller's picture

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 14:01 | 1288001 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

I'm not the Dalai Lama here or anything but maybe don't hate anything? I can't say I practise that, by the way.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:16 | 1287474 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

Fool.

He never said anything about politics, much less party politics.  He said "Conservative," a word that actually MEANS something, like liberal and progressive.  "Conservative" the ideology has been thoroughly hijacked by "Republicans" the party.  As has the Tea Party Movement itself.  Conservative, almost by definition, MEANS self-reliance.  Party politics, almost by definition, means the polar opposite.

Conservatives would NEVER vote to raise the debt ceiling.  Republicans almost certainly will.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:03 | 1287732 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

He did in fact say "the tea party".  What other facts do you like to ignore?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:28 | 1287861 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

What in hell are you talking about?  Who is "he?"

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 15:19 | 1288420 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

The comment I replied too (and presumably you replied to my comment), just reading English dude.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:58 | 1287987 malek
malek's picture

While I agree, you should refrain from using the word "liberal", a term that has become distorted so much it is now meaningless without a modifier (like "liberal in its original meaning two hundred years ago" or "liberal as in freedom of choice, not freedom from responsibility nor guarantee of results").

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 15:40 | 1288514 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

Also keep in mind the word "liberal" has almost the exact opposite meaning in Europe as it does in the States.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:22 | 1287515 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

you sound like an angry obama voter

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:05 | 1287739 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Go back a bit.  Via hard work and good choices I am a very fortunate, but somewhat disappointed, Ross Perot voter.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 15:32 | 1288486 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

And you sound like a dipstick.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 17:25 | 1288934 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

...and YOU sound like a wiener.  Dog.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:30 | 1287546 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

do you count libya as a war started by conservatives?

who wants to raise the debt ceiling more - geithner and obama or conservatives

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:59 | 1287625 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Anyone who supports bailouts for banker-gangsters and the annihilation of the world's Black and Brown people supports taking on more debt from banker-gangsters who charge the people interest to bail them out.

What an amazing racket they're being allowed to carry out!

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:05 | 1287742 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

They are all the same evil, what is your point?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:12 | 1287774 Missiondweller
Missiondweller's picture

"Still believing in that two-party lie?"

 

No, that's why the Tea Party started genius.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 15:27 | 1288473 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Oh yeah, the jumped right out there and established themselves as a bunch of geniuses now didn't they?  Why do they caucus with the republicans then?  In short, they have done a piss-poor job of breaking ties to the republicans.  I guess they like that republican tit.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:43 | 1287617 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

They do so rather than confront the fact that their economic system has failed to provide a satisfactory life or income for the vast majority of the people it enslaves.

Rather than blame the slaver, GOPers would rather blame the slaves.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:45 | 1287628 tired1
tired1's picture

I've been trying to figure out the 'end game'. China's Treasury holdings can be dumped by some concocted scenario, same with Japan and the rest. What about the Fed's holdings? How do they expect to get away with this? Sooner or later most of even the most stupid of Americans are going to figure out that debt payments are going to this parasitic entity, and then what? Or am I being too optimistic?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:03 | 1287718 Meatier Shower
Meatier Shower's picture

I believe it was Einstein who once said that there are only two things that are infinite. The universe, and human stupidity.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:21 | 1287800 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

He also said he wasn't sure about the latter...

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:33 | 1287869 tired1
tired1's picture

Question: What's the most powerful force in the universe?

Einstein: Compound interest!

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:29 | 1287214 Tense INDIAN
Tense INDIAN's picture

Have u guys listened to this SPEECH from 1994:::

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZdinrakQVQ

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:32 | 1287215 WALLST8MY8BALL
WALLST8MY8BALL's picture

Getting off the couch is just another Job American's dont want to do.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:37 | 1287234 TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

Its not really even a couch anymore its a computer chair. Although I guess now with laptops the couch has made a comeback.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 14:00 | 1288017 Clampit
Clampit's picture

I'd love to get up off this computer chair, but as it turns out the only way to make any real money in our central planned republic is through "knowledge work." Allen wrenches, oscilloscopes, TIG's, etc. are all the spoils of a $60-70K salary.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:36 | 1287231 Gamblor
Gamblor's picture

This piece is good, however, it's hard to take it too seriously when it mentions nothing about the national question and immigration.

When you import 25M low-IQ, manual labor providing Central Americans into your economy, not only do you keep poor people poor by expanding the labor pool, you contribute to Putnam's "Bowling Alone" philosophy.  People don't trust those different from them as easily.

As the population mean IQ drops because of these additions, more government is needed to support the bad choices that inevitably come along with these immigrants.  This is a funny, if sad primer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSROlfR7WTo

So, yeah.  The government is unwieldly and inefficient.  I got it.  But what creates the need for more government?  What is the justification? 

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:46 | 1287276 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Spot on.  More seeds to grow in the vote gardens.  Watered with tax dollars taken from the productive.  They sprout into droves of voters, who ensure the encumbant with the watering can gets the job of gardener every time. 

Inner city Blacks had hit a ceiling, they weren't ever going to be enough percentage wise of the population to ensure perpetual job security for the political parasites.  Solution: influx a new crop of hyper breeders who view any step up from their shithole countries of origin as a plus.  That's an added feature, they're satisfied with less for a generation or two, making them a better value to the upper level parasite class by extending the game 20 years or so before the productive are bled dry by demographics.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:59 | 1287379 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Sadly this is true.

These poor immigrants come here for economic purposes and have no understanding of traditional american values. As a generalization they believe in, and vote for, big government solutions, in spite of their experience with failed, despotic, corrupt, overbearing governments in their countries of origin.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:25 | 1287511 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

"These poor immigrants come here for economic purposes and have no understanding of traditional american values."

i've met more than my fair share of 'poor immigrants' in my life, and much more often than not, they understand & embody "traditional american values" (as long as you consider these values to be hard work, honesty & ingenuity) far better than any native-born Amerikan i've ever met.

you might be right that they still by & far believe in big government solutions, but this is simply because they still believe in the Myth of American Dream.   silly them.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:38 | 1287581 Holodomor2012
Holodomor2012's picture

Since we are contributing anecdotes, I've met my fair share as well.  Far too many are untrustworthy.  If you turn your back on them they will steal your tools or the property of your clients.  Yes they work hard - the first generation.  Their children just end up violent, anti-American (white), lazy criminals.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:46 | 1287632 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

"If you turn your back on them they will steal your tools or the property of your clients."

and i've met my fair share of white good ol' 4th generation + southern boys who have done the same thing.   when caught, they always try to weasel their way out of it using that charmin' syrupy sweettalk of theirs.

does that mean i should make a generalization that all white southern boys are untrustworthy and full of palaver?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:54 | 1287645 Holodomor2012
Holodomor2012's picture

Yeah, you can generalize if you want.  I like generalization.  Although I think you're exaggerating the ratio of white to non-white criminals.  Did you know that blacks are 7 times more likely to rape than whites?  Also you might be interested that the FBI categorizes Mexicans as White in order to rig crime statistics that would otherwise be shocking.

I'm not making assumptions as to why that is, although the old canard "it's the poverty" has shown itself to be false.  We need to look elsewhere.  I suggest we start by looking at the evil whitey meme that is reinforced by the Jew media.  There is a good chance that this might be inflaming criminal behavior and a sense of entitlement. 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:05 | 1287734 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

not exaggerating mate, just relating my experience which is no more or less valid than anyone else's.   don't doubt the feds manipulate any and all stats to suit their purposes, though i wonder why you choose to believe the 7x's figure if you agree?  also wonder if that's just Mexicans or is it dudes from Guatemala, Costa Rica & Honduras as well?

"I like generalization."   so does the Nation of Islam, so you're in good company.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:35 | 1287883 Holodomor2012
Holodomor2012's picture

You're NOI?  I have to say, LF is one of the rare truth speakers of our time.  God bless.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 14:06 | 1288020 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

naw, but i do like to read the Final Call from time to time just for shits & giggles.   there's actually some good articles in there on occasion.   definitely more of a bang for the buck than the Times or the Post.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:48 | 1287646 Gamblor
Gamblor's picture

Holodomor2012,

You'll be happy to know that your empirical knowledge is backed up by the several studies that have shown regression from the first generation of immigrants to the second and follow-on generations.  First generation works hard and the rest backslide.  This is not necessarily true for higher-IQ immigrants, but they get on the back end with "chain migration".  The US Government is open for business, and it grows with every dependent citizen.  Welcome one and welcome all for your free healthcare, educational prioritization and cheap mortgages (pre-2007, of course).

Open borders advocates think that our current crop of illegals are comparable to the Irish, Italians, Poles and Germans in the early part of the 20th century.  There is some truth to that (IQ-wise).  But the US implemented a 50 year immigration moratorium to allow those ethnics to "melt together".  This led to the creation of a "white" people as intermarriage rates rapidly increased and led to what some of have called the "golden years of America" - the 1950s and early 60s.  Intermarriage rates these days are quite low (under 10%) as more groups self-select not only their spouses, but where they live and who they associate with.  It's human nature!  When they vote, they don't vote for what's best for the nation - they vote for someone from their group.  Why shouldn't they?  I'd rather get screwed by someone I know than someone I don't.  Oh what a tangled wed we weave...

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:04 | 1287722 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

If this regression is true (and it sounds like fake science)  what does that imply about the White decedents of the original genociders?

Does it make them less efficient, useful, and productive overall, or just less able to carry out genocide with efficiency?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:07 | 1287753 Gamblor
Gamblor's picture

Always a bad move arguing with a troll, but here's some of that fake science:

http://www.cis.org/ImmigrantParadox

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:15 | 1287780 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Exactly what I thought:  total junk science, based on poor methodology like test scores and crime rates, which we know are RIGGED worse than the CPI.

I think it's previous title was "Journal of Blame the Slave for Slavery".

And before that it was the house organ for the Know Nothing Party!

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:45 | 1287941 Byronio
Byronio's picture

Gamblor Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:07 #1287753

I read a report by STEVEN CAMAROTA of CIS a few years back and he showed that Mexican-Americans use more welfare, more government services than they pay in taxes, a LOT more. These were 3rd generation.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:10 | 1287768 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Good points, the immigrants that came here during WWII learned English and didn't demand schools that spoke their native tongue.  To be fair, if you don't like the current system, work to change it but don't rob me and my children in the process.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:04 | 1287635 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

By "Traditional American Values" do you mean the values held by those who inhabited these lands before the arrival of White interlopers, or are you talking about the land AFTER the genocide and subsequent occupation by thieves?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:42 | 1287912 Byronio
Byronio's picture

downwiththebanks Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:04

Whites were here before, as evidenced by Kennewick Man, and Spirit Lake Cave mummy and many other older skeletons aged over 9-10,000 years old who were ID'ed by the expert on bones, Dr. Oswald, as white people. Then the Shanghai "indians" came and slaughtered the whites and basically took over North America.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 14:13 | 1288078 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

If you're going to plagiarize, perhaps doing so from a site other than Stormfront would bolster your cause:

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t728075/

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 19:09 | 1289307 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

Haha Storm Front. The Sothern Poverty Law Center has already played out that worn-torn card.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:54 | 1287324 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Dont forget Muslim Africans with aids on Section 8. Well, maybe they pull their weight cleaning out $3K/night hotel rooms and international bankers.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:09 | 1287744 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

or those Zionists who live hand-to-mouth on the $5,000,000,000 in welfare that Uncle Sam coughs up to keep the ethnic cleansing going.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:38 | 1287894 Byronio
Byronio's picture

Obama’s Aunt Zeituni Onyango. [Aunt Zeituni: 'Country Is Owned By Almighty God', WBZ-TV, September 21, 2010]

Aunt Zeituni’s brash sense of entitlement is on full display.

This country is owned by almighty God. You people who preach Jesus Christ, almighty God and the rest of it, you are here to help people, help the poor, help other countries and help women. That’s what the United States is supposed to do. And you have to give me my right light, every person’s right.

That pretty much sums up how Second and Third World immigrants and refugees view the United States.

“If I come as an immigrant, then you have the obligation to make me a citizen,” she demands.

One has to wonder how much her nephew, “my child” she calls him, agrees. Certainly, Obama hasn’t helped her out financially. But then compassion is America’s obligation, not his own.

WBZ’s John Elias even asked Aunt Zeituni how she could afford to hire Ohio-based immigration attorney, Margaret Wong, who also accompanied Zeituni to Obama’s presidential inauguration.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:43 | 1287916 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Nowadays in the United States social justice trumps equal justice and the Constitution.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 15:37 | 1288502 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

Good grief.  This hasn't been a Constitutional Republic in years.  We live in a corporate kleptocracy.  "Crime is contagious.  If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt of the law."  Louis Brandeis said that back in 1928.  Wake up.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:20 | 1287502 Trial of the Pyx
Trial of the Pyx's picture

Your confusion of IQ with education level opens you to allegations of racism.

 

I do not necessarily disagree with your premise, however ignorance and stupidity are not the same thing, and lack of education is not the immigrant's fault.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:01 | 1287710 Gamblor
Gamblor's picture

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-badgers-1.html

You're right.  Race and IQ aren't correlated.  Shhh!  Don't tell anyone - we **might** waste billions of dollars blaming teachers for our inability to raise kids scores!

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 16:39 | 1288755 nufio
nufio's picture

why isnt the dropout rate for the asian students in there?

or the average SAT scores for the asian students. I can bet that itll be much higher than the twhite population.

I dont think its because of IQ but of family values. Asian families generally have a much higher emphasis on education, while black families dont. Stop blaming the teachers. The blame rest primarily on parents, single parent families and distorted social images presented through the media.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:10 | 1287643 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Go back to Europe, White Man.  You don't belong here.

Stop blaming people who actually WORK for a living for problems caused by the banker-gangsters and their acolytes whose profession demands that they loot from the productive world.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:13 | 1287781 Meatier Shower
Meatier Shower's picture

Junked for racism.

Get over it.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:21 | 1287798 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Why should I get over the present, exploiter of Black and Brown labor?

Much easier to blame them for problems than to look in the mirror, isn't it, banker-gangster?

Perhaps you can screw an old lady out of her pension today?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:59 | 1288011 Meatier Shower
Meatier Shower's picture

Feeling sorry for yourself isn't going to solve anything.

Instead of blaming others for all of your perceived problems, maybe you should look in the mirror, because with the kind of attitude you display, nobody will empathize with you. Including most of us here.

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 14:34 | 1288209 Holodomor2012
Holodomor2012's picture

This guy isnt black or brown.  He's Khazar.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:41 | 1290101 oddjob
oddjob's picture

'Including most of us here.'

How many mice do you have in your pocket?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:45 | 1287925 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Exactly how do you get "low IQ" ? Do you even know what an IQ test measures? I get so tired of hearing this used as a standard.

IQ tests measure a "type" of intelligence. It is designed to determine your ability to succeed in college. It doesn't measure mechanical ability or the use of tools. It doesn't measure social or sales abilities. It fails to measure artistic or athletic genius. 

Worse, it has been lowered, from 150 to 145 for a genius rating. Probably the flouride. So you know, I've taken it 6 times and averaged 150. Guess what, I still find myself learning from people who understand certain systems way better than I ever will. People I'm pretty sure can't match my "IQ".

You keep poor people poor by creating legal systems that benefit a small elite. By taxing the wealth of your citizens. By creating barriers to trade and start ups. By providing substandard mandatory education. By providing a welfare system that rewards them for not working.  

IQ tests are just another form of elitism. 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:35 | 1287239 Mr. Poon
Mr. Poon's picture

Agree with the general thoughts expressed.  The problem is that sympathy for the plight of the less fortunate has led to systems which, in an attempt to bring up underperformers, also limit the achievements of outperformers (for a perfect example, see the public education system; "no child left behind" means that every child will be left behind).

If we are to work toward a society where people are able to choose the life they live, we have to accept the reality that some people will choose the dead-ends.  For all the ants, there will always be some grasshoppers, to borrow imagery from Aesop.

I fully support an increased emphasis on self-reliance, but I have no illusions about the consequences for some individuals.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:37 | 1287249 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

I don't believe the government has "sympathy for the plight of the less." That concept is used as a cheap tool for politicians and an excuse for social engineering.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:41 | 1287263 TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

Rather than generalize, I'd rather say that many non-big named politicians actually DO believe in sympathy for the plight of the less, however, there are more than enough that use it as a tool.

Regardless, the end result is the same.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:27 | 1287527 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

yeah but those politicians desire to address the plight with YOUR $

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:16 | 1287471 three chord sloth
three chord sloth's picture

The "modern" redistributive, therapeutic government: Assuring our Harrison Bergeron future.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:47 | 1287281 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

Why wokr. more and more people are not paying their mortgages and not paying rent. It takes a year or more to evict them....so why bother?

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:50 | 1287655 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Perhaps this is because the banker-gangsters whose boots your licking here CAN'T legally do so because they are FRAUDS.

Why do you defend crooked banker-gangsters' right to steal homes that aren't theirs?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:45 | 1287285 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

FEDERALISM: The Domination of CENTRALIZED Government And The Decline Of Self-Reliance And Community.

In communities where more power and responsibility reside at the local level, individuals do take an interest, and in some cases actually pick up trash.

When the power and responsibility are removed geographically they become abstraction to the individual over time.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:48 | 1287286 Payable on Death
Payable on Death's picture

From a letter to the editor essay I wrote a few months ago:


“There’s a limit to how much you can pay in. But, there is no limit to how much you can take

out.” Has Bernie Madoff revealed his best closing line? Cold fusion is back? No, it’s Nancy

Pelosi selling health care reform on the eve of the House vote. The difference between Madam

Speaker and peddlers of perpetual motion is that she can deliver.

Set aside political orientation for a moment and consider Washington from the perspective of

incentives. Elected officials can be studied as political entrepreneurs. Political business owners

are only rational to spend on programs that return votes from satisfied customers. Still, where is

the demand to meet the supply of programs if all government revenue ultimately flows from

voters? Voting money from your own pocket never makes sense. The demand, of course, comes

from non-taxed voters. While the figure is debated, if anything near 40% of the public pays no

Federal income tax, then politicians can truthfully promise free money to enough voters to have a

base for most any program.

It is not necessary to believe, or care, that reform can reduce the cost of health care. What some

people rightly know is that their personal cost of health care can be reduced by having others pay

for it.

While these virtuous circles and vicious cycles are familiar, the point is that it is not necessary to

attribute socialist tendencies to Washington’s program creators. Our political entrepreneurs are

not evil in a follow-the-money sense, just folks trying to get ahead at work. The dissonance

between Republican talk of small government and the act of program creation arises from the

powerful incentives in the system. How ironic that G.W. Bush’s tax cuts might have removed

enough voters from the tax rolls to motivate the nationalization of health care.

The problem is not so much with the particular individuals now in Washington, or even a given

voter. The system’s incentives are so strong, so accessible, that countervailing morals of selfsufficiency,

sacrifice and delayed gratification are being overwhelmed.

An honest, apolitical review of the national accounts shows that we need of a complete reset of

Washington’s feedback loop. Term limits have been championed to solve exactly the problem of

perpetual incumbency that makes a politician produce like a Buffet-Gates crossbreed. The

FairTax, a kind of national sales tax replacing every Federal levy, income or otherwise, would

reset all sorts of incentives. Key to this discussion is that FairTax proponents expect a broadening

of the tax base and the elimination of corporate welfare. Term limits and the FairTax would seem

to work both ends of the government spending supply-demand relationship. These ideas have

most resonance with conservatives. Other progressive solutions must exist, too. Who has the

incentive to see them through?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:52 | 1287961 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

All government is based on the concept of a small elite living at the benefit of the great majority through coercion. This is a system fail.

The only solution is the abandonment of government. All governments fail everytime to produce what they promise. 

Liberty is only found in private property and free markets.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 14:47 | 1288262 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Have I mentioned that Scandanavia contradicts what you are saying? And were the first nations of North America, while having an undeniably difficult life but little 'private' property, more or less free than you are today?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 16:49 | 1288797 nufio
nufio's picture

private property rights are enforced by goverments..

How can there be a concept of private property if everyone claims a piece of property as their own?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:48 | 1287287 Dollar Bill Hiccup
Dollar Bill Hiccup's picture

Devolution, yes. Stand on your own two feet!

On community and the breakdown thereof, as Franklin said, "We must hang together gentlemen .. else we shall most assuredly hang seperately."

The rope was debt. We have been given a lot of it.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:49 | 1287299 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

...the advantages provided by self-reliance and community wither.

I disagree.  The prevalence of self-reliance is certainly declining, but the advantages remain, and the rewards smell all the more sweet in comparison with one's surroundings.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:23 | 1287498 tired1
tired1's picture

OT, sort of. Some years ago I spent some time in a small villiage in Carpathian Ukraine close to the Rumainian border, the essence of remote. The folks lived quite well, about the only things they 'needed' bring in were tobacco and alchohol. The bridge on the only road going to that palce was washed out by a storm - it really didn't matter much. They were the model for me of being independent. I don't think that most in the US can even imagine such an existance, but for me it was Shangri La.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:51 | 1287300 plocequ1
plocequ1's picture

Its over Johnny .... Nothing is over bitchez

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:57 | 1287313 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:50 | 1287316 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

This is why sometimes I wish for a collapse.

Parasites die when the host dies.

I cant believe we use the word "entitlements." In a robust society based on individual liberty you are entitled to equal protection of the law and due process.

People should be ashamed to be helping themselves to OPM.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:12 | 1287677 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

People should be ashamed to rely on one another.  After all, we're totally autonomous, isolated individuals with no connection to other humans or to the world around us.  If you're not totally self sufficient, you're worthless.

We need to impart this critical life lesson much earlier:

For example, everywhere I go I see these fucking "babies" bitching for milk.  Why don't they just go out there and get their own milk, and stop whining for someone else to provide it for them?

Why are they so entitled?  Fucking parasites.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 14:01 | 1287970 damage
damage's picture

That's a strawman and you know it. No one is saying that people shouldn't be involved in the community.

Either that or you are so fucking stupid you can't understand that if YOU want to help people then YOU should do it, stop relying on a distant government to steal money from other people to do it for you because you're too lazy to do it yourself.

Yeah so much easier to steal money from other people and have someone else take care of the community, right? Why don't you go and do it YOURSELF. This is what you leftist fucktards never seem to fucking get.

If you think people should rely on one another, then BE FUCKING RELIABLE SHITFACE. Stop expecting others to DO IT FOR YOU.

Until you realize this you are just a parasite.

Hey, I'll admit I'm a lazy fuck. But at least I can admit it. You lefties are the lazy in action AND intellectually... "Yeah yeah, everyone else has to do it for me because I feel like it should be done." - That's essentially your argument. Fuck you.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 14:03 | 1288028 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Damage done.  Good work.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 14:51 | 1288292 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

+++  Fascist and Socialist parasites must die.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 15:29 | 1288398 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

@ damage

Right, the problem is that not everyone posseses that modicum of decency or conscience (sociopaths) that society requires to function.
So, if such as these are not compelled to contribute their fair share, they won't. In fact, their lack of empathy will provide them with an advantage against the socially conscientious, and they will succeed at the expense of everyone else, which is what you are allegedly trying to avoid.

Your assertion that 'because you are a self-proclaimed Ayn Randian right wing loony, and lazy to boot, that means that all 'lefties' have no work ethic and just want to suck on your sweaty teats' has exactly zero merit.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 15:51 | 1288555 damage
damage's picture

*sigh* Leftists and their strawmen. Why is it always a strawman from you guys? Are you capable of actually making an argument against our REAL position and not your farcical twisted version of the libertarian position on this matter?

Studies have shown that such people only comprise about 1% of the population. So those who will reciprocate immensely outnumber those that would not. So who truly wields the power? I somehow doubt that tiny minority does in the long run. But much more importantly, you seem to ignore the whole trust factor. 

These people will not succeed for long. People who aren't to be trusted are always eventually crushed by the market. All the rules, regulations, and welfare in place typically just slow the market from crushing these people sooner. Whether it is providing a false sense of security to the general public, a captured regulatory agency warping the rules to help their own "cronies", or corporate welfare bailing out those who would have been rightfully crushed by the market.

Also those willing to engage in fraud should certainly be prosecuted and penalized for violating the rights of others. In this way the government does have a role. Of course, rule of law is important!

Also, I never said lefties had no work ethic. I said they were lazy intellectually and in action. (when it comes to social policy).What I mean is, most lefties (the ones I know at least) won't go out and help at the soup kitchen themselves, or give their own money up voluntarily to some charitable cause they believe in, yet they are perfectly willing to force everyone to participate in the programs they believe in through force and theivery.

Also I'll one up you a bit, I'll say you are no different than the modern social "conservatives" who want to push their own subjective morality onto others. You believe it is somehow everyone's OBLIGATION to help out those who are less fortunate to them, even those who they do not know or do not find valuable. This is a subjective moral value no different than the type of things the socons try to push for. You are more like them than I am!

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 17:12 | 1288665 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Strawman here, strawman there, Here a straw, there a straw every where a straw straw. Right wing loony had a farm, eieio"

Heh, that's rich coming from the likes of you.I think you might want to look that one up.

Show me your '1% sociopath demographic study'(cough. Bullshit. cough.); did Lloyd Blankfein, Mark Carney, or Benny B volunteer to be subjects for that study? Besides, even if that figure is accurate even someone as misinformed as you should be able to calculate that 1% of 300 million is 3 million sociopaths, and that it only takes one ruthless mofo to be a dictator, or only a few to form an oligarchy, or a handful for a plutocracy.

And yes, you do have an obligation to your country, because unless you live on a island, off the grid, and incommunicado you DO rely on others. Or maybe you truly believe you will be 14 years old forever?

Yes lumpy, morality is subjective, but there are obvious universals and you know it. Eg. I think I can safely say that most people outside of your '1%' would rather teach a poor kid to read than blow up his baby sister with an unmanned drone; it would be far far cheaper to accomplish as well. And for that matter tax dollars providing basic services essential for a human being to survive is just plain common sense for a society, not necessarily a moral imperative. Or are you truly an absolutist when it comes to private property rights? If so, can you tell me who owns the rights to clean drinking water, or breathable air? 'cuz I've got some hard won capital to invest.

Oh and this juicy little unsubstantiated generalisation,

"Also, I never said lefties had no work ethic. I said they were lazy intellectually and in action. (when it comes to social policy).What I mean is, most lefties (the ones I know at least) won't go out and help at the soup kitchen themselves, or give their own money up voluntarily to some charitable cause they believe in, yet they are perfectly willing to force everyone to participate in the programs they believe in through force and theivery."

is not only an inane anecdote, but proves beyond any doubt that you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. Heh, "the ones I know" pffft, riiiiiight. I just bet that you spend all your spare time at 'soup kitchens' researching the demographic that makes up the volunteers working there(/sarc). I recommend you have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up before you get any more shown up. "... you're in my world now Gramma..."

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 17:55 | 1289023 damage
damage's picture

Just because a large number of people engage in one or two of the symptoms of sociopathy doesn't mean they are truly sociopathic and incapable of reciprocation. The point is in the market place the vast majority of actors do recriprocate and do add value... And again, I never said fraud should be legal. If you argue as if I do, then again you are engaging in a strawman argument.

http://reason.com/blog/2009/09/09/reasontv-neuroeconomist-paul-z

http://reason.com/blog/2011/04/26/paul-zak-oxcytocin-moral-marke

"And yes, you do have an obligation to your country, because unless you live on a island, off the grid, and incommunicado you DO rely on others. Or maybe you truly believe you will be 14 years old forever?"

Now you're back to using the original strawman I first responded to in this thread, see my first comment, please. Also I have no obligation to you or anyone else unless I have agreed to such an obligation, to say otherwise is to treat me as a slave.

"it would be far far cheaper to accomplish as well. And for that matter tax dollars providing basic services essential for a human being to survive is just plain common sense for a society,"

Oh fuck... the stupid... it burns... efficency? How is social security efficient? How is medicare/medicaid efficent? Name one government system which is in any way efficient, and explain how/why? There is ZERO incentive for the government to do anything efficiently. They don't have a bottom line!

"is not only an inane anecdote, but proves beyond any doubt that you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. Heh, "the ones I know" pffft, riiiiiight. I just bet that you spend all your spare time at 'soup kitchens' researching the demographic that makes up the volunteers working there(/sarc). I recommend you have a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up before you get any more shown up. "... you're in my world now Gramma...""

Oh really? In "your world" huh... That's a joke. I've been here longer than you. Also wow... linking that youtube video really helps your argument... I guess you showed me!

"Blah blah blah the fact you think government can provide stuff efficiently proves beyond any doubt you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about"

I did it too! Look at me! I can make a retard argument too! Yippee!

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 19:04 | 1289188 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Also I have no obligation to you or anyone else unless I have agreed to such an obligation, to say otherwise is to treat me as a slave"

Well, you obviously are a slave of some denomination, but that has nothing to do with the fact that you benefit from the works others' tax dollars have provided and so have an obligation to contribute your fair share, like it or not. Your use of them is agreement implicit.

"Name one government system which is in any way efficient, and explain how/why?"

Any engineer can tell you that there is absolutely no such thing as perfect efficiency in any human design, so fuck off with your disinformational 'prove the impossible' question. (Now that I have little doubt left about your intentions I'll be humouring your contemptible blather by treating it with the derision it deserves). But if you really want to find an answer to your stupid question (which I highly doubt): Look at how Norway fared in late 2008, and examine how all of Scandanavia operates today for prime examples of functional, egalitarian economies. Though they can't, as indeud nothing can, meet your requirement of 'perfect efficiency', you'll find they are vastly more successful than your "I'm all right so fuck all the rest" Ayn Randianism.

"There is ZERO incentive for the government to do anything efficiently. They don't have a bottom line!"

Whatever that means... elected officials get a mandate from the masses, if they don't perform they get kicked out of office (in societies that still have informed, politcally active populations, that is.)

And yeah, 'my world' has been directly involved with organisations that place volunteers in appropriate positions based on their skill set, so I have experience with the demographic that likes to 'help out'.

Just shut your piehole until you can come up with a decent argument you circumlocuting piece of crap disinformer:

You abuse around five of these in every comment.

IE you're not fooling anyone.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 19:37 | 1289418 damage
damage's picture

Well, you obviously are a slave of some denomination, but that has nothing to do with the fact that you benefit from the works others' tax dollars have provided and so have an obligation to contribute your fair share, like it or not. Your use of them is agreement implicit.

Oh, and how do I benefit from other's tax dollars if I don't use any government programs? I do use roads. But then again the fuel tax is what is SUPPOSED to be paying for that at least. I think most government programs do NOT benefit me and only steal prosperity from me and everyone else except those lucky enough to be in bed with the government.

And again I'm just a slave to you. I have to participate in your thugocracy amirite? There's no freedom for me eh?

Which "5" am I abusing? Can you be more specific please?

Anyway, you didn't name one government entity which functions in an efficient manner... if the government is so good at doing things efficiently naming one government welfare system which is efficient shouldn't be an issue. Of course nothing is 100% efficient, but I'm just wanting you to explain to me how Social Security is more efficient than private insurance, also how medicaid/medicare are efficiently delivering healthcare. Seems to me the fraud and abuse of these systems alone makes them inefficient not even considering the money they waste in "normal" operation when they aren't giving money to fraudsters.

elected officials get a mandate from the masses

A mandate from the masses huh? Hmm... I think I'm about to choke on stupid here. But I'll continue at least I'll make an attempt to form a coherent argument against whatever it is you are trying to argue... but it makes it hard when you make such incoherent arguments... sigh...

#1 You assume the masses or the majority should be allowed to do whatever they want to the minority, amirite? Such as forcing moral beliefs upon them or stealing from them to support the causes you are too lazy to take care of yourself? Yet even if mob rule was good, we don't even get that, it is obvious even the elected officials are bought out by a minority. Mandate from the masses my ass...

Anyways, any of the long time ZHers should be able to tell you I am not trying to spread disinformation.

ATTN Tyler Durden: If I am a "disinformer" (or whatever it was this dude accused me of being). Please leave a reply to this comment and say so.

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 20:41 | 1289555 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

damage says, 'oh I don't use, but I do use.' and somehow I'm incoherent to HIM; I guess I shouldn't be surprised... You can't make this stuff up folks.

"Anyway, you didn't name one government entity which functions in an efficient manner... if the government is so good at doing things efficiently naming one government welfare system which is efficient shouldn't be an issue. Of course nothing is 100% efficient, but I'm just wanting you to explain to me how Social Security is more efficient than private insurance, also how medicaid/medicare are efficiently delivering healthcare. Seems to me the fraud and abuse of these systems alone makes them inefficient not even considering the money they waste in "normal" operation when they aren't giving money to fraudsters."

Oh but I did, you just chose to ignore my examples rather than address them, then you continue blithely on with your boorish unrelated assertions.

"I think I'm about to choke on stupid here"

No kidding; all the obtuse garbage you've been regurgitating was bound to get stuck in your throat at some point.

You want a private vs public insurance example because you are too wilfully ignorant or self-admittedly apathetic to have a look for yourself? Fine, no fucking problem, though it is far more than you deserve:

The US/captia health care costs are higher than any other developed nation, and leave tens of millions without any coverage whatsoever. Meanwhile Germany, Norway, Sweden, Finland, fucking Cuba have decent, if not top notch, public health care available to all their citizens, for (in your thick case it bears repeating) less money per citizen.

#1 is just so fucking dumb and obviously not what I am saying that I just can't be bothered anymore to respond to your contemptible uninformed rote. (Anyone want to bet this is the focus of da mages next useless comment?)

Fuck you and the horse's cock you rode in on.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 21:48 | 1289881 damage
damage's picture

damage says, 'oh I don't use, but I do use.' and somehow I'm incoherent to HIM; I guess I shouldn't be surprised... You can't make this stuff up folks.

 

Maybe I should have been more clear, but it is obvious you are trying to twist my original words. What I mean is, I don't use any, except for government roads. As the government has the monopoly on roads I can't really help but use them. However, I don't mind the fuel taxes so much, since they pay for the road maintanence. The difference between your welfare schemes and roads is... with a fuel tax then only those actually driving on the roads pay for them. I know some road funding comes from other sources, but the main idea is that you collect funds for roads from fuel taxes so that those who don't use it aren't paying for it. Roads are a lot different than an insurance plan or medical care also. To try to compare roads to the health care market or anything else is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

 

Oh but I did, you just chose to ignore my examples rather than address them, then you continue blithely on with your boorish unrelated assertions.

 

Well it is true I read the first couple of sentences of that paragraph and then just glazed over the rest because it started out so stupid. But now that I bothered to read the bottom of that paragraph I see you still didn't exactly answer my question. This doesn't prove that their government programs are as efficient as private ones would be.

 

I prefer to keep the context within the US because I do not have an in depth knowledge of the history of those foreign countries. But the social structure in those countries is much tighter and it just isn't the same here. The US federal government is on a whole diffrent scale. Comparing Norway to the US is your biggest mistake here... it would be better to compare Norway to a state like CA. The culture and level of diversity in the culture has a lot to do with the viability of any given system. Main point here is you can't compare Norway to the US. Policies which work in Norway won't work the same here, it would be like ignoring the "context" so to speak to try to say what works in Norway will necessarily work here.

 

Norway:

Population:4.9M

Corporate Tax Rate: 28%

Land Area: 148,746 sq mi

USA:

Population: 308M

Corporate Tax Rate: 35% + 0-12% state = 35%-57%

Land Area: 3,794,101 sq mi

 

I like how their corporate tax rate is actually lower than it is in the US. Also, from what I understand Norway actually has less complex and onerous regulations than the US, especially in the financial sector now that we passed Dodd-Frank, which has no real teeth and only just adds major "regime uncertainty". I doubt Norway comes close to the horribly high level of regime uncertainty in the US right now. 

 

Norway is a small very unified country. The US is a huge behemoth with people in one state having totally different political beliefs than another.

 

Why does the bulk of medical technology and innovation come from the US? Even considering our massive GDP we produce a lot more medical innovation than the skandinavians do proportionately. Hehehe.

Also one thing you lefties don't seem to get when it comes to these skandinavian socialized healthcare schemes is basically they are negotiating a group rate from US pharmaceutical companies and medical equipment manufacturers. They get rates cheaper than any US citizen does. The US citizens are effectively subsidizing the medical technology in all of the countries that have socialized healthcare. Most countries just accept whatever our FDA approves, all of the cost of R&D is put on the US consumer while the skandinavians sponge off of us. If you turned us socialist, then the competition in the medical technology marketplace would be turned into some sort of horrible monolithic monopoly or oligopoly (whoever wins the contract with the government). We would enter into a dark age of medical technological advancement. How good were the soviets at developing medical technology? Hmm?

These massive nationalized group health care plans that the Skandinavians have would not be even remotely viable without the US as a source of new advancement of technology.

As for their "egalitarian" lifestyle, you would try to force this on all Americans, even the states which the majority in would not wish to have this lifestyle. Also Skandinavians don't seem to mind being serfs. I on the other hand, do mind. I do not wish to be equally enslaved with you. I want to have my own hopes, dreams, and plans for the future. I do not wish to have you interfering with them. But just because it works in some tiny country with a very tight social structure, you have to run my life so the world can be molded to your desire eh? Or whatever the majority may desire...

 

I do not wish to be a slave to the majority. I have a hard time caring about life because I don't feel people like you will let me live my life free of interference, even when I am not hurting anyone or violating the rights of anyone else. You must treat me as your slave and force me to join your programs based on theft which I want no part of. You give me no way of opting out. Why can't you just offer voluntary programs? Like insurance used to be in the US before the government totally ruined it...

http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/library/HowGovernmentSolved.html

The cost of healthcare in the US only started growing at a ridiculous rate AFTER medicaid/medicare were pased.

The current modern health "insurance" everyone has provided by their employer which isn't portable at all and isn't even insurance, but rather a pre-paid medical care is a side effect of FDR's wage controls . To get around them, employers started trying to entice skilled employees with prepaid healthcare. Then the government basically made mutual type health insurance illegal or totally unprofitable. The current warped "insurance" system we have now is also another main contributor to the ridiculous inflation in health care in the US.

Car insurance doesn't pay for gas or normal maintanence. But for some reason we think that health insurance should be covering normal doctor visits instead of just catastrophic illnesses or accidents. The problem with this system is that the insurance companies don't have the time to audit bills under $100k or so, and no one is auditing all of these small bills. The problem is very, very complex... I am so tired now or I'd continue... if you wish to continue this tomorrow I am willing... I will check back here to see if you have responded tomorrow (time-willing).

I'd really like to try to get you to understand where you are wrong, and that things just aren't as simple as you think they are....

Also, if you actually believe a study which concludes Cuba has better health care than the US. You really, really are fucking naive... the study you're getting your info from seems to ignore the difference in standards between the countries whose stats are being compared. There are other problems with the methodlogy as well, but that should be obvious if they conclude Cubans get better health care than US citizens... *sigh*

 

-

 

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 21:57 | 1289958 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

LOL
You just have nothing, hey?

"Main point here is you can't compare Norway to the US"..." because I say so and for no other reason that if you do it will destroy my utterly ridiculous argument"- fixed it for ya.
I just did compare it, and the US failed miserably hehehhehehehehehehehe.

'Socialist countries rely on the US' medical innovation subsidies blah blah blah' what a load of malarkey. Yah, mb if you focus on erectile dysfunction pills or you want anal warts grafted to your nipples', or some other form of 'cosmetic surgery'. On the other hand a country full of morbidy obese fatties like the US would find it tough to cope without insulin, no? I've got money on my flank that says you don't have a fucking clue where that was developed, cherry picker. I think I can hear your Ronald Reagan album playing in the background, dupe.

"Why can't you just offer voluntary programs?" I've already gone over that, why can't you just pay attention?

"As for their "egalitarian" lifestyle, you would try to force this on all Americans, even the states which the majority in would not wish to have this lifestyle. Also Skandinavians don't seem to mind being serfs"

'Serfs' can't own property. You might want to try looking some of these words up before you shoot off your festering gob and misnomer them. While you're at it, put 'egalitarian' on your research list before you speak for all americans and tell them what you want. Polls say otherwise, shitface.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:05 | 1289984 damage
damage's picture

Also, if you actually believe a study which concludes Cuba has better health care than the US. You really, really are fucking naive... the study you're getting your info from seems to ignore the difference in standards between the countries whose stats are being compared. There are other problems with the methodlogy as well, but that should be obvious if they conclude Cubans get better health care than US citizens... *sigh*.

 

The infant mortality rate is higher in the US because we attempt to save premature babies the other countries just write off, among other things which skew those stats.

Your chances of surviving if you have cancer or heart disease are much higher in the US than in those countries you claim have better health care.

Why do people from around the world still come to the US for heart surgery and cancer treatment? Why is it hard to find a good heart surgeon in Canada? Why do Canadian government officials fly to the US to have heart surgery?

 


Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:15 | 1290013 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Because the Canada Health Act is under attack from American private insurance companies, abetted by pro privatization politicians in Canada underfunding it, which creates a crisis so they can say "See it don't work, nopes, privatizing breathable air is the only way to go". Add to that all the uninsured Americans that cross the border to leech on the Canadian UHC system and the Canucks could ask you the same fucking questions, dipshit.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:26 | 1290033 damage
damage's picture

Maybe it's under attack because people are tired of waiting 48 hours in the hospital waiting room to get a rash on their penis examined.

Ever thought of that?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:32 | 1290085 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Yep, and I've been to a hospital in Canada so I know it's total fucking bullshit.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:40 | 1290108 damage
damage's picture

That's weird, I know a Canadian who waited in the hospital waiting room for over 30 hours just to get his broken leg examined. They didn't even give him drugs to ease the pain while he was waiting. They just told him to take paracetamol/acetaminophen.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:46 | 1290128 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Really? Which province? Which city? Which hospital? I call bullshit.
As long as we are using unverifiable exceptions to prove rules:
I know an American who DIED because she didn't have insurance and was stuck in a cab by hospital staff, and dropped off in the street a few blocks away without receiving any medical treatment whatsoever.

See how that works?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:55 | 1290146 damage
damage's picture

It was in Toronto, ON.

 

I think you're full of shit though. Because I know for a fact every state i checked. State hospitals are compelled to treat charity cases. State hospitals cannot refuse a patient. So your story must be a lie.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 23:06 | 1290160 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

of course.No 'impoverished unhealthy' left behind... was that a Bush program? Answered

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 23:20 | 1290211 damage
damage's picture

This has nothing to do with Bush, or the federal government. This is a state issue. But since you've been caught in a lie you link me to a youtube video with the title "God you're dumb".

Great, very compelling argument. Are you 12?

Anyways, God you're dumb man. I'm awesome at debating!

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 23:26 | 1290221 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

The US/captia health care costs are higher than any other developed nation, and leave tens of millions without any coverage whatsoever. Meanwhile Germany, Norway, Sweden, Finland, fucking Cuba have decent, if not top notch, public health care available to all their citizens, for (in your thick case it bears repeating) less money per citizen.

 "Caught in a lie..." Oh yeah, I've been busted by Howdy Doody the blathering idiot. Hahahahah!

"Anyways, God you're dumb man. I'm awesome at debating!"

Well, at least someone thinks so!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 00:03 | 1290253 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Dance around and circumlocute all you like Miss Information, none of that changes the fact that there are public systems that provide wider coverage and cost less per citizen (IE are more efficient). Which was the example you asked for,  and I provided, and leaves you flailing.

US has the same life-expectancy of Chile at 7 times the cost. So, am I lying?

Keep pushing me and I'll give you some more indefensible positions for you to unsuccessfully try to defend...

you can start here

Aaaaaaahhhnd...GO!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 00:21 | 1290353 damage
damage's picture

Life expectancy is skewed here because of high violent crime rate amoung youth. Also again differences in how the statistics are kept between countries.

You ever hear the one about the statistics guy who drowned in a river that was an average of 3 feet deep?

Well there are many other factors besides quality of health care that will affect average lifespan.

You keep accusing me of disinformation, but you're the one who is telling half truths and ignoring important facts about differences in standards of government statistics between different nations and other factors such as violent crime amoung the youth.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 11:45 | 1290361 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Well, that doesn't leave much room for discussion if we have to disregard all evidence besides any personal anecdotes you feel like presenting... how about this: you tell me what you think and I'll just accept it as God's own truth.

How exactly does that change the fact that there are a litany of successful public systems that provide wider coverage and cost less per citizen (are more efficient)?

You asked me for one example...

There are always plenty of reasons for not doing something. One of them isn't to continue what obviously isn't working for tens of millions of your countrymen. Spend the military budget on health care; Enact the GI Doctor Act or some't. That's what, ~3,000 US bitz and bytes of coverage for every American? I mean in light of the other option of simply continuing to stir up hornets' nests worldwide for.. um,

Or use less than half of it. One quarter to infrastructure, health care, and small business loans, the rest to clean up some books and clear out some desks (aaaaawsterity)

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 21:53 | 1289946 damage
damage's picture

Compare cancer and heart attack survival rates between the US and any of those countries you selected as having "better" health care.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:07 | 1289967 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I can cherry pick stats too if you like, but I won't. Egregious wealth disparity in the US destroys the bell curve on that one, take out the top ten percent earners in BOTH countries, and use the median wage you get for a better picture (warning, you aren't going to like it)

Er wait a minute, does that include the 45 million, 15% of the population that has ZERO coverage? I wonder what THEIR odds are for surviving heart attacks...Yah, that's what I thought.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:10 | 1289993 damage
damage's picture

You don't need health insurance coverage to get care in the US. You must not be familiar with any state hospital system. Also, I live in a relatively small town and there are two free clinics here which provide very good care. It is a myth that you can't get health care if you can't afford it in the US. Those who claim so are just too lazy to look.

The poor wouldn't have much issue affording health care if we still had the system we had before the current insurance oligopoly took over. If you had read the article I linked to, you would know the poor immigrants had no issue affording health care because they formed private mutual aid societies. Much like the government systems the skandinavians have, except much more efficient and most importantly... Voluntary.

Also please explain to me again why can't your systems be voluntary? I must have missed that sorry. Why must you enslave me? Can't I decide on my own what health care coverage I want? Or will you force your one size fits all solution on me, even if it isn't the most economical for my individual situation?

You keep accusing me of cherry picking data, but who is to say you aren't either? It seems to me you are the one guilty of that... and trying to paint and unrealistic picture with Cuba having better health care eh?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:30 | 1290072 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

If you can get better free health care in the states why do so many uninsured americans cross the border to see a doctor in Canada?

I balance the stats, you dingle berry them.

"Also please explain to me again why can't your systems be voluntary? I must have missed that sorry. Why must you enslave me? Can't I decide on my own what health care coverage I want? Or will you force your one size fits all solution on me, even if it isn't the most economical for my individual situation?"

No, we've been over this, UHC is NOT 'one size shmees schmeeeee...". I showed you how you were wrong, if you're too stupid or pigheaded (or both likely) to figure it out, it's not my problem.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:33 | 1290088 damage
damage's picture

No, we've been over this, I showed you how you were wrong, if you're too stupid or pigheaded (or both likely) to figure it out, it's not my problem.

I must have missed it, sorry, can you please link me to the comment or just quote the section where you explained it already?

If you can get better free health care in the states why do so many uninsured americans cross the border to see a doctor in Canada?

I've never once heard of this? Evidence please? Maybe they were too lazy to look up the local free clinic? Who in the US actually travels to Canada to see a doctor? Also if they do, is it a private doctor or a government one? I know people cross the border to get cheaper drugs, but that is it. And again this is due to the fact the US consumer bears all the R&D costs while everyone else gets a free ride.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 01:30 | 1290149 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Oh you missed it all right. But as I've already pointed out: that's not my problem. Neither is it anybody else's fault but your own that you allow big pharma to deal with you so harshly. In fact, those americans that skip the border to buy cheaper drugs are stealing from the Canadian people because, despite your misinformation Canadians, via their health act, pay full price for those drugs. IE the gov't has to pick up the difference, which means that Canucks and other countries' taxpayers are subsidizing American drug companies.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 21:57 | 1289963 damage
damage's picture

Also why has the private insurance industry in France grown if the government's scheme is so great?


Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:02 | 1289976 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Because you fool, the French are in the process of having their public health care system attacked by private interests. Canada is next.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:14 | 1289998 damage
damage's picture

Why do people from around the world still come to the US for heart surgery and cancer treatment? Why is it hard to find a good heart surgeon in Canada? Why do Canadian government officials fly to the US to have heart surgery?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:23 | 1290030 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Already answered, you redundant fuck.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:25 | 1290040 damage
damage's picture

You just accused me baselessly of "cherry picking".

 

Also did you respond to this yet?

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-domination-government-and-de...

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:52 | 1290138 GoinFawr
Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:50 | 1290142 GoinFawr
Wed, 05/18/2011 - 17:02 | 1288817 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

Well, obviously you didn't read the post to which I was responding, which cast aspersions on those who have the temerity to use 'entitlements' (which people PAY into), calling them OPM (even though it's not) granted to them by LAW.

In fact, the author to whom I was responding has no interest any ANY social cohesion at all.  He's a market-order anarchist.   He's like Hobbes, with an expense account for hookers and blow.

Your whole post is hysterical, seeing as Capitalist brigands are the ones most dependent on the nanny state for everything.  After all, the nanny state gives them the 'legal' right to loot the globe.  Without that sacrosanct LAW created by governments - and the guns to enforce said laws - NOBODY would sell themselves into wage slavery or give up their means of survival.  

The parasites are the banker-gangsters, like yourself, who hide behind the law when it facilitates your brigandage. You acting like others abuse the state as camouflage.

The state serves the interests of those whose boots you lick every day, damage.  And on the rare occasions in which it actually serves the masses of real people who (unlike yourself) work for a living come about for two reasons:

1.  The struggle of the masses themselves

2.  The government's fear that the pissed off masses might give the middle finger to the whole corrupt market order of legally sanctioned theft

That's when the state buckles under and passes Social Security or Medicare.  

The lackeys of banker-gangsters, like yourself, are perfectly fine for the nanny-state to serve the interests of the Capitalists looters.    But when the demand is for the state to honor the obligations it has guaranteed to REAL people who do REAL work, the fangs come out.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 18:08 | 1289086 damage
damage's picture

The fact you accuse me of being a bankster lacky pretty much makes your post worthless to even bother responding to... I don't even know how to respond to the Hobbes thing cause it doesn't even begin to make sense. So I'll just pretend you "won". Okay? Happy now?

As for those who pay into the system, then sure... I agree if they paid into the system they should get exactly what they paid in back... or what they were promised at least. The problem is you compell everyone to participate in these programs and they have all devolved into nothing more than wealth redistribution (welfare) programs. All of them are either a) ponzi schemes now that they have been thoroughly looted by the government (social security), or b) absurd programs which distort market incentives and drive up the price of health care so it is way way way higher than the normal rate of inflation (medicaid/medicare).

Your whole post is hysterical,

 

Maybe you should read your own posts again.... as I'm not even sure who you were responding to or what you are even trying to say....

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 19:11 | 1289284 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Nope, I agree that he has got you pretty much pegged, and hardly surprised that you are unable to see his points.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 19:42 | 1289438 damage
damage's picture

"Yep I agree with someone who doesn't agree with the person I'm arguing against!"

Sound argument there buddy.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 20:51 | 1289563 GoinFawr
Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:15 | 1290005 damage
damage's picture

Are you capable of arguing with reason and not some stupid ytmndsfds or youtube link?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:18 | 1290009 damage
damage's picture

Why do people from around the world still come to the US for heart surgery and cancer treatment? Why is it hard to find a good heart surgeon in Canada? Why do Canadian government officials fly to the US to have heart surgery?

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 23:15 | 1290201 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Bold repetition doesn't make your inanity valid... keep trying.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:56 | 1287360 I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

Get your IPADS bitchezz and post on Facebook and Tweet all fucking day long. Yeap that is the skill set Americans want.

 

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 11:59 | 1287362 Refuge2012
Refuge2012's picture

sorry, this was my first post, didn't mean to doubole-post it.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:01 | 1287369 Refuge2012
Refuge2012's picture

We have been living the self-sufficient life (not dependent on "Uncle Sam") for many years.  No TV, no handouts, just us taking responsiblilty for ourselves.  So when all that collapses, it will just be "tomorrow" for us.  We are building a community here.  place of refuge 2012 dot com

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:04 | 1287385 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Another Harvard hit piece upon social security. :sigh:

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:15 | 1287468 Vic Vinegar
Vic Vinegar's picture

Absolutely.  Just planting the seeds for now.

Soc security, like everything from government, looks great on paper and yet is impossible to pull off as-designed.  Anything from government will be exploited, mismanaged, or both.  Sad for those who put their faith in this system.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:00 | 1287702 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

It's especially tough to pull off when you pull the money from it in order to massacre Black and Brown people worldwide and give away to banker-gangsters.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 13:12 | 1287762 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

+1

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:03 | 1287400 tonyw
tonyw's picture

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
Thomas Jefferson

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:03 | 1287403 Dane Bramage
Dane Bramage's picture

Saviour State, Stockholm Syndrome or a combination... I recommend a nice safe and cozy prison for folks who prefer it.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:10 | 1287410 Mercury
Mercury's picture

What Obama (among others) doesn't get is that the USA is too far gone at this point for a massive, European style, welfare state.  Maybe you could have pulled it off for a few decades starting in the 70's or 80's but not now.  We're too broke already. 

Besides, just look what's happened to Europe after half a century of their grand socialist project.  And that's with Uncle Sam picking up the tab for a lot of defense spending etc.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:49 | 1287418 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"This is particularly the attitude of intelligent, cultivated people; one can read the substance of it in a hundred essays. Very few cultivated people have less than (say) four hundred pounds a year, and naturally they side with the rich, because they imagine that any liberty conceded to the poor is a threat to their own liberty. Foreseeing some dismal Marxian Utopia as the alternative, the educated man prefers to keep things as they are. Possibly he does not like his fellow-rich very much, but he supposes that even the vulgarest of them are less inimical to his pleasures, more his kind of people, than the poor, and that he had better stand by them. It is this fear of a supposedly dangerous mob that makes nearly all intelligent people conservative in their opinions." -Eric Blair

But it doesn't have to be this way Babbitts, for example:

the mixed economy, capitalist-socialist system works brilliantly for Scandanavia. That part of the world has some of the best education, health care, and overall living standards, especially when compared to the US.

Here's how it is done: sovereign wealth funds. IE Your gov't runs a profitable state owned industry, wisely reinvests the profits using a long term plan, the proceeds of this business fund social programs like education, health care, etc. which, thanks to the net benefits such programs provide, feed back on the overall health of the country. Also SWF's, by providing at least partial funding for programs, lower national debt.

Key to success: Don't let GS anywhere near your banks as they prefer nations to be enslaved by debt (just ask Iceland)

Hah! Another speechless junker without an argument or even the ability to "face up to the facts"

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 12:57 | 1287708 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

What is the composition of SWFs?   My understanding is that a large part of the funds is composed of Treasuries, etc.    How sound is that?   Now, if the funds were composed of PMs there would be no interest or other income produced, but the stability would be better.   I guess the question to ask is, what is the primary purpose of the fund.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 11:57 | 1287820 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

'struth about the composition of the funds, last time I checked, anyway. But like any other pool of capital, SWF's can adapt their strategy to compensate for current market conditions, it all depends on the talent running them. The Scandanavians are prudent, hold their fund managers accountable, and keep their activities transparent to their respective governing bodies and the politcally active populaces that rule them; no billion dollar bonuses for tanking a fund in Norway. (Iceland is no exception to this, they were attacked by financial criminals; they have handled it brilliantly.)

The primary purpose of a SWF is as stated: to fund crucial social programs while helping to keep deficits/national debt/taxes as low as possible (IE promote fiscal prudence). In the long term, if managed properly, taxation could be reduced or even wholly eliminated, without affecting quality of service.

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