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Guest Post: The Israel-Turkey Rift: Is The Future Of NATO At Risk?
Submitted by www.oilprice.com
The Israel-Turkey Rift: Is The Future of NATO At Risk?
If anyone still harbored any doubts that there is an urgent need to resolve the Middle East crisis one needs only look at the events that unfolded two weeks ago off the coast of Gaza when Israeli commandos stormed a Turkish relief vessel heading for the besieged Palestinian territory.
The end result of that operation, one which turned out to be a monumental public relations fiasco for Israel, was that it raised the level of animosity between Israel and Turkey, a level which was already dipping well into the red zone – pushing it another notch deeper into the danger zone.
One must not forget that Turkey is a full-fledged member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and that further schism between the Jewish state and a NATO country could have serious implications on the Alliance.
The North Atlantic treaty stipulates very clearly that an attack against one member of the Alliance is equal to an attack on all members. It is this unshakable tenet that has kept Western Europe – and Turkey – safe during the Cold War, acting as a strong deterrence and a reminder to the Warsaw Pact countries that any act of aggression against any member state would be regarded as an act of aggression against the entire Alliance. In essence NATO offered all its members the unwavering support military and political support of the United States of America.
So what would be the consequences in the unfortunate event that Israel found itself in an armed confrontation with Turkey? In which directions would the loyalty of the United States likely to turn? Will the United States respond to the obligations of the NATO charter, one which Washington was instrumental in establishing and rush to defend a country engaged in a military confrontation with a country which every administration has described as America’s staunchest ally in the region, or would the United States risk fracturing NATO and offer assistance to Israel?
This is the dilemma which the Obama administration today could very well face should the situation in the Middle East continue to deteriorate as it has been doing so gradually, ever since the start of this crisis some 60 years ago.
While Israel may have signed peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan and at the same time established commercial relations with a few other Arab nations, the truth of the matter is that those agreements do not establish cordial relations with the people of those countries with which these agreements have been signed. Since Israel exchanged ambassadors with Cairo and Amman how many Egyptians and Jordanians have actually travelled as tourists to Israel?
The answer is a very, very few. Israel may have succeeded in appeasing governments of those two countries, but certainly not made any headway into bridging a huge schism that exists between its people and those of the Arab/Muslim world. Indeed, if one takes a few steps back and looks at the overall Middle East situation, relations between Israel and other countries in the region have deteriorated. Two prime examples Iran and Turkey.
Before Iran became known as the Islamic Republic after the overthrow of the shah by a theocratic junta led by Ayatollah Khomeini, imperial Iran enjoyed extremely close and cordial relations with Israel. Iran and Israel cooperated on many fronts, not least of them in the military and intelligence fields. It all changed with the Islamic revolution of 1979 and the overthrow of the shah. The consequences of the regime change in Iran have had serious repercussions on Israel and on its security.
Iran today is believed to be supporting, financing, training and equipping groups who are accused by the United States and Israel of engaging in terrorist activities. Under that heading one can place the Palestinian Islamic Resistance Movement, better known as Hamas and Lebanon’s Hezbollah. Additionally, Iran is believed to be in the process of acquiring nuclear weapons.
Ironically, Iran, a non-Arab country has turned out to be a greater headache for Israel and its security than any other Arab country since the October 1973 War.
Similarly, Turkey, another non-Arab country in the Middle East is on its way to emulate Iran’s militant position vis-à-vis Israel. In the absence of any real Arab political visionary in the Arab Middle East Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has emerged as a hero in much of the Arab Middle East for his defiant stance against Israel’s politics in the region. To summarize it is obvious that the Arab-Israeli conflict is expanding beyond its traditional borders to now include non-Arab countries.
Should the current trend continue – and there’s no reason to believe it will not, then there is good reason to fear that more countries in the Middle East will get dragged into this imbroglio. After Iran and Turkey will NATO be next?
By Claude Salhani for Oilprice.com who offer detailed analysis on Oil, alternative Energy, Commodities, Finance and Geopolitics. They also provide free Geopolitical intelligence to help investors gain a greater understanding of world events and the impact they have on certain regions and sectors. Visit: http://www.oilprice.com
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Haha, let the games begin, bitches!
I am Chumbawamba.
Thought the same thing when I saw the headline, Mr. Wamba...
Folks, can we at least try to keep this civil & on topic re: the state of NATO should things escalate & the US must choose whom to back?
Here, I'll sum up both sides of what's sure to follow:
Illuminati! Zio-fascists! Jewish Scum! Zionist Pigs! Protocols of Zion! 9/11! Lavon Affair! USS Liberty! Big noses!
Rag heads! Islamo-fascists! Terrorists! 72 virgins! Caliphate loving bastards! Wipe Israel off the map! Overly hairy!
Ah f*ck it, you guys are gonna start tearing each other apart anyway...
EDIT: The above 2 vitriolic rants were not intended to offend anyone, it's just what I expect this thread to devolve into...
I don't and don't need to use slurs. I am armed with facts and knowledge.
I am Chumbawamba.
Good sir, I hope you didn't think I was singling you out. It was not my intent. You just happened to be up top post-wise and noticed we both thought "ohhh it's on..." I just took a more juvenile attempt at what BumpSkool did a few posts after mine...
I meant no ill will. It was more a commentary on what I fully expect to happen down below once everyone starts piling in. No doubt you're about to have your hands full. :-)
I just wanted to make the point that, while you may find other people using ethnic slurs and ugly hate language to frame their debate, I find it offensive and would never stoop to such a boorish level. I leave that to the Zionist contingent. You can always count on them to shoot themselves (and pretty much everyone within a 1000 mile radius) in the foot.
I am Chumbawamba.
Time for a reality-check.
You told someone to go fuck themselves with a dead Iraqi infant, and also said you would masterbate when Israel is wiped off the face of the planet.
As much as I try, I can't forget that shit. You are as diseased a person as ever lived on this planet.
The US doesnt not have to choose whom to back. Supposedly, NATO rests on something many boast about: the rule of law. Therefore, the different courses are already decided and are not a choice. They are only legal, illegal, obligations or stuff like that.
This said, this crisis, as many crisis, has this valuable they expose the fallacy of the rule of law. NATO (by its acts) is a club destined to serve specific interests of certain members and where some other members (like Turkey) are sub members, members not entitled with the same priviledges as the others.
Turkey is expected fulfill its obligations to serve its NATO friends's best interests but NATO's members are not compelled to fulfill their obligations to Turkey.
That is the interesting part of this crisis.
The rule of law is the rule of law only until it becomes inconvenient. When it gets to that point, it's whatever they want it to be. Don't like it? WTF are you going to do about it? Just ask the GM and Chrysler bondholders how that rule of law worked out for them...
Talked like a tough guy.
It is not about liking or not liking.
It is about knowing or not knowing.
I'm no tough guy. I believe you misinterpreted my comments. My "WTF are you going to do about it?" comment relates to TPTB telling us exactly that, and punking us all. I know, and an increasing number of people know, but it doesn't change anything. They still do it then turn around and ask us "WTF are you going to do about it?" US invading Iraq, Afghanistan, CIA rendition programs, drones, airport scanners, flotilla raids, Chrysler and GM bondholder haircuts, PATRIOT Act, healthcare reform, etc. It's just a big FU to all of us. At least they are decent enough to do it to our faces. I was trying to reinforce your point that the rule of law is just an illusion.
You mean you're just waking up to the hypocrisy of the West?
I am Chumbawamba.
The fact is Israel has nukes. The lesser known fact is Turkey has battlefield nukes at their disposal. They are stored in Turkey and under their command and control.
This confrontation is not something to take lightly. What could be at stake here is the end of a NATO member nation or better yet the end of the Illuminati, depending who launches first.
I had to stick this in here somewhere. An oldie but a goodie!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeQ-wjDH4F4
http://www.counterpunch.org/weir06162010.html
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/unedited-video-of-israeli-ra...
We need a paradigm shift....
Careful what you wish for...
A Resolution is already on the table and has been for years - agreed by all Arab states, but not Israel:
1) Israel to return to pre-1967 borders.
2) Contingous Palestinian State to be established in West Bank in Gaza in return for
3) Recognition by Arab League and all Arab states.
4) Jerusalem under International Administration (already conceded by Abbas)
...alright everyone ... let's start tearing each other into pieces.
That was the best deal they were ever going to get. The new terms are:
1) Unconditional surrender of the Zionists;
2) All living Israeli political and military leaders tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity, then executed. Think Nuremberg, except this time the Americans won't be the hypocrites conducting the spectacle;
3) It's PALESTINE, bitches;
4) One secular state for all who wish to live there;
5) Get out of the way and let the Palestinians self-determinate. They've had enough of external meddling.
I am Chumbawamba.
Lebanon part deux.
Chumba, on point #4, you're dreaming. It is undeniably impossible to create a multi-religion, secular state anywhere in the Middle East. Period. Morocco is about as close as it gets and even that country is becoming more islamicized by the day.
Turd, you discredit the Palestinians. You won't find a more modern, secular society in the Middle East (including Lebanon, I might add).
I am Chumbawamba.
I don't know. Even if I grant you Lebanon, which is a bit of a stretch given their collusion with Syria, its very hard to make a case that Arab/Islamic governments promote peaceful secularism. And I'm not trying to say that Anglo-Saxon governments do promote it. That's a whole other story and blog. For this discussion, it seems safe to conclude that the current geo-political landscape of the Middle East is not conducive for any type of secularism.
That's not accurate. Syria is a basically peacefully secular nation internally. So was Iraq, minus a shitty (Western-backed) dictator, until we came in and broke the place up. Calling Lebanon secular is kind of paradoxical because the entire government is based on a "confessional" system that allocates power based on the religious make-up of the population, but many (if not most) Lebanese are entirely secular.
The reason the Middle East seems to be a cauldron of Islamic radicalism is because the Western press tries to paint it that way. And in the cases where it is, it's because that country is either under the thumb of a Western-backed dictator or in a state of war with Israel that is used to curtail the civil rights and liberties of their citizens.
I'm not saying that if Israel was gone then all of a sudden there would be an Arab renaissance and every dictator would fall and a liberal democracy would rise up organically--though it could. But any nation in a state of war or under assault is going to curtail the rights of its citizens until the danger has passed. I mean, look at US.
Religion plays a big part of a majority of Arabs, just like America used to be a much more "Christian" nation until we were thrust into the modern era. But there are large pockets of secularism throughout the Middle East. Don't believe all the shit you read, especially in the New York Times. It's mostly propaganda in the service of the King.
I am Chumbawamba.
Lebanon's constitution is so screwy because that's what the US demanded in, I think, 1958.
In other words, their constitution serves the same role, in a micro-level, for Lebanon as the invention of Israel by the UN in 1947 does for the whole region.
The entire raison d'etre for the Zionist state is destabilization.
Which explains why Zionists spend so much time murdering babies, or apologizing for their murder.
Turd, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. There is a large and strong secular population in Iran as well. Just because the heads of state spew religious propaganda doesn't mean that everyone else is on board. I mean, just because GWB puts on a performance as a born-again in public doesn't mean he's representative of the average american's spiritual philosophy (or his for that matter).
Exactly. Iranians are some of the most "Westernized" people in the Middle East.
I am Chumbawamba.
+1
Indeed. Most of the population was born after the revolution, and they don't much like the contrast between what Iran could be (and has been) versus what the kleptocratic mullahcracy has done to the place. Most of the population born before the revolution rue the mistake of trusting the mullahs, and there is nostalgia among them for the time of Shah. Or at least this is the pattern among the Iranian half of my family, and amongst Iranian acquaintances here in Dallas. The mullahs hold on through terror, torture, murder, and an effective police state. this has severely embittered many Iranians with religion in general, though many have or wear symbols of the Zoarastrian religion destroyed by Islam when it arrived, conquering, from Arab lands. For what its worth there is a strong racism against arabs amongst Iranians. They are seen as bestial, essentially. It is quite a lot more pervasive and deep, apparently, than the racism imagined by our native race hustlers and leftists to still pervade america.
you obviously have never been treated to the Party scene in Damascus! It rocks, Great cocktails, chicas and music...
what? no dudes? ^^
Chumba, have you developed a new patent for that diamond-encrusted guillotine of yours or something? You seem to be quite fond of offing people these days. Earlier, it was BP management, now it's Israeli top brass. Are you just pushing your book?
In an earlier post, you let out that you have children. How you can call for the heads of other people after participating in the creation of life is beyond me. However, if you're going to keep requesting that people be offed, then I'll politely request that you be selected as the executioner. And no, you don't get to use your newly-developed diamond-encrusted guillotine. You should do it with your bare hands. That way, you'll remember what it feels like.
Listen, I realize it's your style, this whole off-the-wall-say-whatever-I-feel like kind of guy, but this calling for people's heads is getting old. Especially since, given your many other thoughtful, informative, and useful posts, I can deduce that you're actually a smart man, who I finds adds a lot to the discourse around here (at least when you're not too busy raging). I'm sure that in your quest to meet your neighbors, you're not employing your "Chumba" personality, well, at least I hope not. Maybe this "Chumba" is your outlet. I don't know.
I do realize that we still have the illusion that the first amendment still exists in this country, so you are free to say whatever you feel like. But just remember that with all your longing to have other people erased from the face of the earth, when they going really get tough, they might come for you as well.
If I'm reading between the lines correctly, you're accusing me of wishing a genocide on the Jews of Israel.
Let me be clear here and now: I have deep-seated hatred for Israelis generally, that much I cannot not deny. I, after all, am only human, and I can't always contain my emotions.
HOWEVER, I am also a realist, and again, human. I do not wish to see the people of Israel killed or expunged or ethnically cleansed. The reality of the matter is that you cannot separate the immigrants and native born Israelis from the rest of the population. For better or worse (mostly worse) they have made their homes there, albeit in the same homes that used to be inhabited by Arabs. If the UN can create a country for one people by stealing part of another then they can surely take it one step further. The ONLY solution for this is for one state to be created, inclusive of all of what we consider Israel and Palestine. It shall be one nation of one people, secular, democratic, etc. but eventually self-determined.
That being said, I do want their leadership to be punished, and severely. And though I would admittedly experience some glee in being the executioner, it is not my place.
Nuremberg was as much psychological as it was judicial. It was to tell the German people in no uncertain terms, "You fucked up". It was the final blow; absolute defeat. The Israelis, most of whom, afterall, support what their leadership is doing (read the Israeli press if you don't believe me), must also suffer a final capitulation. I can't advocate a South Africa style peace and reconciliation tribunal. What the Zionist movement did to not only the Palestinians, not only the people of the Middle East, but to everyone everywhere, should not go unpunished. They should be made an example to anyone who would ever again try to deceive the entire world and hold hostage an entire people for their own selfish goals.
In the end, all I want is justice. Justice for the wrongs that have been committed against a defenseless civilian population. And that justice shall extend to the United States and our leadership, which so shamelessly stands behind everything Israel does, supplying hem with the means, money and motivation to carry on their decades long murder spree.
In conclusion, to insinuate that my end game is to see "other people erased from the face of the earth" is entirely offensive to me. It is anathema to my convictions. And while my vitriol may seem barbaric at times, it's because--again--I am only human. I see the wrong being done to the Palestinians and I feel it viscerally. I try to overcome the barbarism that lays just under the surface of everyone, but sometimes it's just a losing battle. But one thing I will never allow myself to become is a monster that advocates for the wholesale destruction of a people because of their race, ethnicity, etc. or for the crimes that their leaders committed in their name.
Let the guilty be punished so that the innocent can live.
I am Chumbawamba.
With clarifications like that, I can henceforth smile at your animated calls for diamond-encrusted guillotines. And let me be clear, I was not insinuating that you wished genocide upon Jews, at all. I have read enough of your work to know that you can differentiate. I simply worry about those who would not or cannot, and add in a bit too much of their own enthusiasm to your animated comments. Thank you for taking the time.
It bothers me immensely if people try to use my comments as launch points for their hatre and I will always reject that.
I am Chumbawamba.
Why aren't you more upset about the Zionist flotilla massacre?
Hang on there..it's a bad thing when Hamas' eager, pipe swinging helpers die?
So, you're a pacifist who's philosophically opposed to self defense?
Don't let the thieves and muggers in your neighborhood find out that you think fighting back is a bad, bad thing. They might take advantage.
just remember ..., when they going really gets tough, they might come for you as well.
First of all - in a sense, they have already come for all of us. Look at the totally f'd up state of the world.
Secondly - Some things are worth fighting for.
Third - Grow a pair.
Give me liberty or give me death.
<sarcasm>
yeah, when will those damn joooos just die already??
</sarcasm>
On a serious note, they *did* self-"determinate" in Gaza. They have a murderous and terrorist regime who cares not for its own citizens, especially if it helps advance the final solution.
I'm gonna side with Turkey on this one but the maggots will side with you-know-who. The zionist pigs own the usa and our currency.
A motivation for Turkey's rift with Israel?
http://tinyurl.com/3xabo7t
JFK
so far its pretty weak ... let me help
rant rant rant rant.... grrrrr F-U!!! rant rant rant you anti...MFer grrrr ... I'm gonna f-ing rant rant rant rant grrrr.... you ...f-in you don't have ... rant rant rant every day of your life grrrr.... rantrant rant..... 9-11.... rant rant rant grrrr.....
You mean we're not going to solve thousands of years of conflict with blog postings? Bah humbug!
Oh, please:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Nasrallah
I am Chumbawamba.
Chumba, I appreciate your posts and always read them as I scroll down. Most of the time you make your sarcasm quite apparent. I guess I missed the sarcasm on this one?
My point being that Hassan Nasrallah has a vision, and that vision is a free Palestine. After the Rape of Lebanon in 2006, the amount of support and exhaltation for Nasrallah across all Arab and even non-Arab Muslim countries was pandemic. Parents were naming their newborns after him, musicians were writing songs praising him, and there was talk generally of a new Nasser and a renewal of Arab unity in the aftermath of Israel's stunning defeat at the hands of Hizballah.
Middle East politics works like a chess game. The West may think they have the upper hand, but that's because they're playing checkers.
I am Chumbawamba.
But he also seeks to establish his Palestine through the very same means of bloodshed and hate for which you despise the Israelis.
Read (the English translations of) his speeches. He never advocates genocide against Jews. He speaks always specifically of the Zionists and removing the Zionist leadership (the same thing, incidentally, that Ahmedinejad of Iran has always said).
It is the Zionist propagandists that will twist words and try to convince you that advocates for the destruction of Israel are implying a genocide of Jews. It has been clarified time and again that it is the Zionist regime in Israel that is the target, not the people.
This is the same distinction that people might miss when they read my rants. You will always see me refer to the enemy as "Zionists", because that's exactly who the enemy is. It is not Jews that are the problem, it's Zionism. Even a majority of Jews worldwide are abhorred by what Israel does. And though they will call themselves "Zionists", it's because they are lending support to the Jewish people, not necessarily because they support what the Israeli government does. It's the vocal and powerful minority of Zionists (many who aren't even Jewish) that tries to make it seem as if all Jews worldwide are in support of Israel and its politics. This is hardly the case.
Yes, I have no doubt that there are many people who do want to see the destruction of Jews. Many of them are right here in the US and use slogans like "White Power" and dress in bedsheets with pointy heads. As always, these heathens are in the minority.
If Israeli Jews would simply take a leap of faith, somehow find the courage to shake off the insecurity that the Holocaust bequeathed unto them, rebuke their leadership and express solemn and sincere remorse for what has transpired the last 60 years, I guarantee you will see something you never would have expected: Arabs will embrace them and, finally, welcome them home.
Disbelieve me if you want, call me full of shit, whatever. What I'm telling you is the truth.
The fact is that the writing is on the wall, and Israel is all but done as a political entity, sooner or later (and at this point it's looking to be sooner). Israeli Jews can take their fate into their own hands and assimilate themselves peacefully into the Arabic culture, or they can resist every step of the way to their extinction. It is not for me or you or anyone at all to decide. It is simply the Law of Nature.
I am Chumbawamba.
Oh "the Holocaust" ..... right. We all know the dogma/propaganda/lies, but what really happened (or didn't and how exactly do you know), oh wise teller of truth? I have some serious questions myself. And please don't anyone embarass themselves by calling me (or really anyone for that matter) a "jew-hater". There is no such thing. ANYTHING is fair game for rational discussion (except apparently in places like Germany, France and Canada where they have laws against certain rational questions).
Exactly.
The man predicted every phase of Hizbullah's victory in 2006.
He's even more trusted by Zionists in the know than the blowhard fascists who run Tel Aviv's little settler government.
And his movements is the chief reason the Whites Only apartheid colony lives, today, on borrowed time thanks to welfare checks shoveled to it by Uncle Sam.
Accept the fall of Turkish secularism.
Move our bases to Kurdistan.
Good idea. Let the Iraqis overrun and eliminate them instead.
It's not too late to flee screaming like little girls. Better to escape with your head still firmly attached to your shoulders.
I am Chumbawamba.
The fall of Turkish secularism is sad, there is nothing to gain by joining this conflict or allying with anyone. Turkey should just be looking out for Turkey.
+1
not yet, , wait for 1 more year, there are elections next year, he is loosing votes, Erdogan will lose and a leftist party will come into power.
Why was this junked is beyond me?
People listen up; Erdogan is another power hungry religious zealot who plays into peoples fears.
Turkey has been staunchly secular in not-so-stable part of the world thanks to Ataturk's revolution of 1923. Erdogan and his Islamist AKP party has been unconditionally supported by the US and the EU governments for the last decade though both supported this religious bigot for different reasons.
The US has supported Erdogan to showcase this new (ehem) 'moderately Islamist party' to showcase to the rest of the Muslims as a model prototype as part of 'Greater Middle Eastern' plan laid out by no other than our one and only Neocons (Perle, Abramovitz, et al.)
The EU, on the other hand, supported Islamist Erdogan all those years knowing he would
turn to his true religious roots once his masterful deception tactics (called 'takiya' in Arabic) fall apart in time as we have been seeing it over the last 2-3 years..
So, after all those years, I think CIA-Neocon plan of Greater Middle East has been working not too bad:
So called moderateiy islamist Erdogan (who is nothing but another Qaddafi type bigot imho) took over the leadership of Muslim world, seemingly negotiating with the great infidels in the eyes of average Muslim but his interests for staying in power has been supported all along by no other than his true masters (CIA, Neocons)
Despite all of this brohuha, I wouldn't take Turkish Military and Turkey's highly educated secular civil forces lightly. The head of opposition secular party has around 35% of the votes according to latest polls and Erdogan's hijacking Palestinian cause for internal politics may not carry him too much in a country, where unemployment is cronically high (14% by state figures, 30% for young people under 30 yrs old).
Hence, one needs to understand Erdogan's deception well beyond typical Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
My 2-cents.
All the best..
"It is this unshakable tenet that has kept Western Europe – and Turkey – safe during the Cold War"
This is a joke. I stopped reading after I got to that statement. If the auther actually thinks the US will support Turkey in a fight against isreal, this is laughable. Treaties are ment to be broken... especially old ones.
Yep.
I am Chumbawamba.
Treaties are ment to be broken, especially when the US is the one to break them. The US must hold the record of broken treaties (per year)
The author believes that Turkey has curled up and submitted to Israel. The only way for Turkey to "save" face is for the US or NATO to save Turkey's honor. Turkey can't do it themselves. They are not sophisticated enough to diplomatically turn this situation (made of their creation) around so that they are seen as having a strong voice. Welcome to blowback.
This is yesterday's news. Israel is clearly in the drivers seat. Move on to some other hatred that gets your blood moving. If not, get it out of your system.
Nobody is impressed...
This is a big deal and I've been waiting for it to be discussed.
"An attack on any member state constitutes an attack on all states". You know that Erdogan and Ahmadinejad have discussed the geopolitical ramifications of this language.
It is going to be a long, hot summer.
As have I, Mr. Ferguson. If the US sides w/ Israel, what relationships in NATO besides Turkey do we also damage?
Before we get all into damning the US for treaty breaching, does the NATO treaty cover the case where a member acts belligerently, and even starts a war? What about if this member starts a war with a staunch ally of the US?
I have to admit that I haven't read the text of the treat(ies) that set up NATO. But I suspect it doesn't give Erdogan a blank check to start any war he pleases, and then expect the US to back him in an all out fight with Israel.
To anyone who doesn't have a hatred of the West and Israel, I think this should be self-evident, if not obvious.
We'd damage relations with every European country that has such a big and growing "Arab street" that its already clear they'll be majorities before the turn of the century. These people are a major voting block, and in a parliamentary democracy that starts to pull serious weight in coalition building long before they reach 50% of the population. Also, notably, these minorities will be more than 50% of the young people long before they reach 50% of the entire population. Young people entering the work force, the army, and the police...ahem. Basically any stance supportive of Israel is already problematic for NATO, but then everyone is aware how ridiculous a relic NATO is at this stage anyway.
I too hope it gets discussed... and the US pull out of NATO. NATO is a political carry-over from days gone by.
Yes, I suspect it unfolds something like this:
1) after the next "incident", Turkey will demand NATO action
2) several NATO signees will decline to support
3) Turkey will use that as reason to formally withdraw from NATO
4) Turkey achieves closer alliance with Iran, Brazil, Russia, Libya et al.
Apartheid Israel has been begging to join NATO for a while, too. Wonder if that happens?
Why seek to ally yourself with such a weak entity? The trick is to have an alliance with the United States directly. NATO is ridiculous.
The Syrians and Turks (along with Iran and Iraq, too) are brutally occupying Kurdish land. And they are total hypocrites - using the Israeli/Palestinian issue as a way to cover up a true humanitarian disaster.
Haha. What a joke. Once again, deflect deflect deflect.
It's not that Israel is in eternal violation of international law, it's not that Israel defies UNSC resolutions, it's not that Israel occupies a nation, it's not that Israel is not a party to the NPT, it's not that Israel is an apartheid state, it's those GOD DAMN A-rabs and their hypocrisy! Why, if they weren't such hypocrites we'd have world peace by now and ponies would be flying throughout the heavens farting trails of rainbows and dropping down peace, harmony and love on all.
No, the real hypocrite here is you, my dimwitted shill for a rogue nation.
I am Chumbawamba.
Chumba,
How retarted/ignorant are you? Turks and Iranians are not Arabs. You clearly have a lot to learn.
Iranians ??? Persians....
Thank you for the lesson in genetics, Herr Bork. I did not know that! In the interest of completeness, I assume next you're going to tell me that Israelis are not Europeans?
Are there any more turds of wisdom that the zionist shill amongst us would like to impart?
I am Chumbawamba.
Israel is not only a rogue nation. It is a terrorist and racist country. There are no any differences between old racist South Africa and Israel today.
As for Turkey leaving NATO, the NATO will be dead. Already Obama fucked off Poland and Czech.
On a bright side, Obama will save money on US bases closing in Europe. Even British might have a second thought dealing with Obama.
Kurdish land? There is no Kurdish land because the US and Britain deemed they did not "exist". Same goes for the Pastuns and dozens of other large ethnic groups that the West F'd when it carved up the spoils after WWI and WWII.
Bullshit.
Kurds never had any government in the region in their history.
Turks gave them all they needed, except an independent country, they are free to do anything inside Turkey, they can become even president..
Guess what one of the Turkish presidents was Kurdish, his name was Ozal. Its a free country.
Today Erdogan is in the government but wait for 1 year, there are elections next year, Turkish seculars will kick his ass forever.
++ I would agree, cbaba.
Are the Syrians and Turks killing babies to prevent wheelchairs and prefab housing from arriving to help the people they're so "brutally occupying" in Kurdistan?
Well said and I like your id.
Iran is estimated to have deployed thousands of soldiers to the border region between Iraq, Turkey and Iran, according to a STRATFOR source in Iraq on June 16. The source said Iranian forces, along with heavy weapons and helicopters, have been spotted in the Kurdish villages of Bardu Naz, Iraq, and the border villages of Xrna and Tapai Kurdina for more than a week, and that noticeable numbers of additional troops have been deployed to the area on a near-daily basis.
Turkey is so lucky the Europeans were never serious about letting them join the European Union. The EU kept moving the goal posts every time Turkey met conditions yet for many western and eastern European countries, the same conditions were waved. The western Europeans want migrant Turks to sweep their floors, wash their dishes and change the diapers of their elderly parents. With Turkeys economy growing, there will be less cheap labor for the Europeans to take advantage of. The US, England and the Europeans will rue the day they F'd the Turks for the second time in 100 years. WWI was the first. The Turks will look north, east and south and cut deals to assure their economic and energy security. The West and the Zio trash are going to have to fight for the resources they need including water. The Israelis will lose the lucrative trade partner they had and they will attempt another move on the Litani. It also does not help that the US and the Israelis have twice attempted to take out Erdogan.
Turkey's increasing distance from Israel (I'd say there's a chasm between them now) was an announcement of their shift away from the Anglo sphere and towards their own path.
We're nearing checkmate. The closer we get, the more shrill the zionist dead-enders will become.
I am Chumbawamba.
+1
+1
I Fully agree with your analysis. We are seeing in Turkey the erosion of the "deep state" installed in the wake of the defeat in WWI. Like the Bolscheviks, the Young Turks had the same western financial backing, the same objectives to destroy the indigenous culture and subject the nation, the same ethnic make-up (cf. dönmeh), and the goal to turn Turkey in another drug-dealing, slave-trading, arms-running, province of the empire. They succeeded most of the XX Century, but with the rot in the overarching imperial power structure, forces with genuine turkish loyalty are occupying the power vacuum. The same dynamics is taking place in all provinces of the Empire like Italy, Germany, South Korea, Japan etc. As the administrative overhead of the empire increases, violence to exact tribute and compliance also increases, and like ever before, entropy precipitates the end of the empire. Tout empire perira.
Eventually, unfortunately, the terrorist state in the Middle East
will come to a very bad end, as do all such enterprises.
The Israeli attack on the Flotilla was underscored in US media. This is quite natural since all media and politics in us is governed by Israeli lobby and their Jewish friends in US who has 2 passports.
Nobody mentioned but the ship was carrying Turkish flag, which means officially Turkey must declare war to Israel.
Turkey doesn't want to declare war but they want an apology, a sorry from the Israeli government but Israel side is quite so far.
This incident is the 9/11 of Turkey, Turkish people doesn't support Erdogan fully due to his religious hypocrisy but they will never forget this, This will not be forgotten like USS Liberty, i can assure that.
Turkey can lead by example, starting with the Armenians and the Greeks.
Point taken, but this is just more deflection from the real issue, which is Israeli crimes and intransigence.
I am Chumabwamba.
What's your opinion on the potential gas corridor raising tensions between Turkey and Israel?
Israel is having a tantrum because they want Iran isolated, but other nations are always going to act in their own interest.
I am Chumabwamba.
Apartheid Israel is having a tantrum against Iran because that is the nation most effective in opposing further land seizure.
The sick thing is that the Zionists in charge make Jack Ripper look like a pacifist. They've already gone nuclear - it's just a matter of when.
well. that's good for an independent kurdistan. could be good for a civilized turkie too
siria will loose contact with mediterana to kurdistan and the kurd oil will flow
and a lesser turkie, could eventually become a member of EU. dont forget armenia, historically mainland is in turkland right now, around lake van.
just start google earth and take a look
Kurdistan only exists in the mind. Once the civil wars break out in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Kurds will be in serious trouble. The different Kurdish clans spread throughout the region will choose sides once again and it won't be each other. Kurds have damn near killed more of their own than the Turks, Iraqis or Iranians have. The US annoited one Kurdish clan leader over all the others. He and his clan have stolen huge amounts of cash from the oil revenues. They also control the licensing of oil deposits and any investment by foreigners in the mythical country of Kurdistan. The largest investor being the Turks. The last big blow up, multiple clans aligned themselves with Saddam and they took revenge for past transgressions. It will happen again.
The seeds of another resource war are being sown: http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?Itemid=3009
and a 2nd article: http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/a-geopolitical-game-chang...
Yep. In the end, it's always about oil (in this case natural gas) and, ultimately, filthy lucre.
For those who don't click on the links, a gargantuan natural gas deposit lays underneath the seafloor off the coast of Gaza, making it the Palestinian's gas. The rape of Gaza makes perfect sense when you fit that piece into the puzzle.
The rabbit hole always goes deeper...
I am Chumbawamba.
didnt know that, very interesting.
Haifa is in the northern coast of Israel - in fact, Lebanon, right or wrong, is claiming it's in their waters:
http://www.offshore-technology.com/projects/tamar-field/tamar-field2.html
Actually - "The (Levant Basin Province) area includes the coastal areas near Israel, Lebanon and Syria." "The Levant Basin Province is comparable to some of the other large provinces around the world ... Its gas resources are bigger than anything we have assessed in the United States." It sorta spans an area larger than the coastline of Gaza.
http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?option=com_content&view=article...
Attention Leftists: Please report to Zero Hedge immediately.
True or False?
1. Pat Buchanan who wants the siege of Gaza to be lifted and war with Iran to be avoided is a leftist.
2. Rahm Emmanuel, Presidential Chief of Staff and dual Israeli/American citizen is not a leftist.
Does the NATO pledge to defend any member country still mean anything? For example, before the Russion invasion of Georgia (who really caused that is not relevent here) there were serious plans to bring Georgia into NATO. If that had already been the case, would the whole NATO membership have mobilized against Russia? I find that really hard to imagine. So what purpose does the organization serve any more, other than to provide an multinational "beard" for US military operations?
Georgia is the route for present and future oil/gas pipelines to the West. Unfortunately for the ethnic Georgians they decided to attack the large ethnic Russian population centers. This gave the Russians the green light to smite them and then hint at the vunerability of present and future pipelines. The net result is the providers of oil and gas in the Caspian region decided to choose Russia, Iran, India and China over the West. In addition the Russians cut side deals with Germany and other major users of oil and gas. The end result is the Nord Stream and South Stream pipelines bypassing Georgia and Ukraine. Georgia and Ukraine are now redundant and investors of future pipelines through Georgia have bailed. The Ukranians decided to tilt back to Russia. Can you say checkmate?
You figured it out. The only purpose now is to encircle Russia and keep it in check. The Russians, meanwhile, have other plans.
I am Chumbawamba.
No the purpose of NATO is to ensure the financial health of most of it's members. Access to low cost energy and resources are the number one priority of NATO. Thieving the resources from Russia, Iran, Iraq, the Caspian region and the "Stans" is the #1 priority. Blocking China and India from getting what they need to grow is #2.
NATO does not care if Turkey gets what it needs. Infact NATAO does not want Turkey to grow. Turkey has finally realized this. Turkey is cutting it's own deals. You can be sure they will get the oil and gas they need from Iraq.
It wasn't a Russian invasion of Georgia.
Georgia launched the attack.
You did not read my comments carefully. Russia knew what the US, Israel and Geogia were up to. Russia had been arming the ethnic Russians living in Abkhazia and South Ossetia for a few years. The ethnic Russians were being abused by the Georgians who wanted to push them out of the country. When the Georgians slaughtered hundreds of ethnic Russians living in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, it triggered the Russian thrust into Georgia. Lucky for the Russians they had numerical superiority since they took losses that a modern Western army would not have suffered.
The West has been planning for many years to control the resources in the Caspian basin. It was stupid to think they could just steal these resources and the Russians would do nothing. It is also stupid to overlook the large numbers of ethnic Russians living in the ex-Soviet states. Of the 1.5 million Russians who moved to Israel in the last 25 years, a large percentage of them are not Jewish. One wonders what they think of their adopted country of Israel killing their relatives back home.
This is like a Tupperware party. Where are all those AIPAC Trolls when some friction is needed?
The rats are swimming away from the sinking ship.
I am Chumbawamba.
They only come by the Megaphone call when some certain words are typed in after certain times, like Jew, Israel. We must examine the software of megaphone more deeply, these are the two words that i know.
You're just going to have to play with yourself.
I am tired of all the poor trees whose lives are ended to produce the newsprint that reports on the never-ending shitfest of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Go kill each other. Fuck off. Enough.
Ever notice how the native Jews look like Arabs? Weird I know.
It amazes me why there isn't more Gothic v. Frankish violence in France. Afterall those filthy Frankionist spilled over the German border and occupied Gothic land.
Don't forget about those bastard Lombard descendants that are occupying northern Italy, I want those fuckers prosecuted!
Ever notice how the native Jews look like Arabs? Weird I know.
No, not weird, some minority percentage of Israelis are decendants from Sephardic Jews.
Most, the Ashkenaz, do not look like Arabs because they are decendants of nonSemetic people who converted to Judism. They have no historic claim on anything in Palestine except that there are sites within historic Palestine that are signifigant to their religion. In this respect, they have no more claim to Palestine than Christians and Muslims, who also have sites important to their religion within historic Palestine.
Ashkenazi, the majority of Israeli Jews are decendants of Khazars in the Caucasus who converted to Judasim sometime in the early ACE.
Shattering a 'national mythology' - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
Now these Europeans, have driven the native Palestinians into concentration camps and colonized the place.
When Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 C.E. and drove the Jews from the area around Jerusalem, what group of Jews was that? Are any of that group living in Israel today?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War
Further:
“The debate is over,” said Dr. Edward R. Burns, one of the lead authors of the study. “The Jewish people are one people with a common genetic thread that evolved in the second or third century BC.”
The study, “Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era,” compared the genetic analyses of 237 Jews, including Sephardic (Middle Eastern) and Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews — as well as an analysis of 418 non-Jews worldwide, and found that the Jews were more closely related to each other than to their fellow countrymen.
Past studies have reached similar conclusions, but they looked at smaller populations and considered only blood groups, mitochondrial DNA (a type of DNA passed down by mothers) or Y chromosomes (passed down by fathers).
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/genetic_testing_raises_people_religion_JfhLi1jF4WntIkfx46Mi6J#ixzz0r4tVKj3lhttp://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/639696.html
Let me point out a little dichotomy: In committing an act of war against a NATO nation, Israel either discussed it with the US or they did not. If the US approved an act of war against a NATO ally, they are guilty of perfidy and NATO is in deep trouble. On the other hand, if Israel is so confident of its influence over events in Washington, that they don't even need to ask before committing an act of war on an ally, then no treaty with the US means anything. I recall that ratified treaties were the supreme law of the land; not no more.
1 turkey will be a turkey, albeit a smaller one. syria too
1b kurdistan will emerge in the process, maybe a greater armenia, why not with acces to the black sea
2 israel is intransigent, but in this case more intransigent as usual, trying to make iran act stupid, so they can bomb iran's nuclear capability before theyget the bomb
they will bomb anyhow, but it looks better if iran makes some kind of a first step
Chumba
"The fact is that the writing is on the wall, and Israel is all but done as a political entity, sooner or later (and at this point it's looking to be sooner)."
You explained yourself earlier re. your attitude toward Jewish genocide. Would you be so kind as to do the same re. your quote above. What do you mean when you say that Israel is almost done as a political entity? Do you think that non-Zionist Jews will gain control of the government of Israel? Or do you mean that the government of Israel will go away (to be replaced by whom)?. What does Israel the state look like to you when it is done as a political entity?
You could perhaps write a book in response. I'm looking for just a short, general idea of what you mean. I'm not asking this so I can debate your response. I'm asking because I'm curious about what you mean.
He already answered your question. One state where one person gets one vote.
How does that answer my question "What do you mean when you say that Israel is almost done as a political entity?"? And you cannot have a state without a leadership structure. In your "One state where one person gets one vote", who/what are the people voting for? Can any ethnicity and any religion run for office?
Your answer helped, but not enough.