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Guest Post: Nuclear Japan, Stock Market "Holding Up", Pictures Of 'Reactor' 3 And 4

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by OahuTrading

Nuclear Japan, Stock market "holding up", Pictures of 'Reactor' 3 and 4

I have continued amazement that very few photo from "on the ground" have
been released from day 1.   It seems that the plants would have many
cameras built in, and those systems destroyed by the quake or blast
could be replaced with quickly set up cameras and/or robots.

This picture says volumes...."Reactor 3 and 4" are not really facilities
anymore, as opposed to smouldering masses of twisted metal.

From my continuing research, Chernobyl radiation release was pretty bad,
and resulted from direct fire on the uranium and by-products.   Now
they say that has already happened in Japan (perhaps).  See below for
"Spent Fuel on Fire?!" which is still not 100% clear in my mind.

WORST CASE #1
A scenario in which molten reactor materials -uranium--"perfectly" wraps
around a pool of water, causing a super-heated explosion of steam
launching radioactive materials in a massive blast is the "worst" case
scenario, but what are the odds of this perfectly happening, perfectly
wrong?   Very small is the general consensus and I believe that one.  
Maybe in the range of 1%, NOT 10%.
WORST CASE #2A
What about a 5000 degF mass of molten reactor materials (let's just say
uranium, although stuff morphs into other stuff that can be worse)
melting it's way through a damaged concrete floor, into a pocket of
water or sea water below the plant, or rolling right into the ocean?  
Purely conjecture, but these are the mostly likely worst case scenarios
IMHO.

WORST CASE #2B
And the Chernobyl type scenario, direct fire on the nuclear materials
or, even worse, on the "used" nuclear waste that was being stored at
reactors 4, 5, AND 6.    Prior to last night, we never even heard of 5
or 6, now we find that rather than store the waste materials underneath a
big mountain like in western united states, that they decided last fall
to store all the old materials in the facilities next to the working
nuclear plants, on the ocean, on the ring of fire.

From a Russia Expert on Chernobyl, and the storing of nuclear spent materials--
Chernobyl Expert slams storage methods

"Spent Fuel on Fire?!"  --this is not clear, but seems quite possible.

Link below is from UN Nuclear Agency saying that indeed a spent fuel
pool was in a fire at Reactor 4, review the picture above.  Indeed that
article below is very clear that the fire was at the spent fuel pool,
and that is what caused a huge release of radioactivity.

Spent Fuel Pool in a Fire

Corrections, further misinformation, and Pot Shots---
So someone says the fire was at the spent fuel (that would be very bad),
and then someone else says...No, that fire was from an oil leak from a
pump--and then points to a link---of which when you check the link, says
nothing about the location of the fire, just that it was put out in 2
hours.  The second link also states how they tried to add water to the
#4 spent fuel pool--and failed.   These spent fuel pools have 16 feet
deep water over the top of the used fuel stored in them.   FOR
CONVENIENCE, these pools are located at the roof level of the
containment buildings!  What is there was a massive earthquake and the
building was cracked, and the water leaked out!   What if the
containment building also blew up due to hydrogen explosion.

Here is a direct download described how the used fuel is stored at Fukushima - very scary and enlightening READ IT

http://www.box.net/shared/3kmi4xgqv1
Here are the links to the "Corrections" comment -- the Pot shot part
http://www.chron.com/disp/discuss.mpl/ap/top/all/7474227.html
http://nei.cachefly.net/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/

Here is the problem: The Authorities are very concerned with all out panic. 
The Japanese people have strong morale values, and do not just "lose
it" like would happen in most places already.   But at some point, if
they reach the breaking point, it could be a very strong social
reaction.

The governor of Fukushima prefecture, Yuhei Sato, criticised
official handling of the crisis, telling Japan's NHK TV: "The anxiety
and anger being felt by people in Fukushima have reached a boiling
point."

So-the authorities want calmness, they don't want to instill panic.  
And thus they feel it necessary to withhold information, which has
obviously been withheld from the very beginning.  Also the classic
example of "Denial"....maybe it is not as bad as we think it
is...example...."maybe it is just a coincidence that 4 airplane are off
course and not communicating on 9-11-01".    Denial, and hoping to avoid
being "chicken little" should the situation not be as bad as you think
it may be.  Very closely related to Denial is "Hope".   Hope is a double
edged sword, without hope --the will to take effective action can be
curtailed, but the wrong hope, the ability to see the need for action
can be blocked.

From the Emperor of Japan who rarely speaks in public, but is highly respected.

"I am deeply concerned about the nuclear situation because
it is unpredictable," he said. "With the help of those involved I hope
things will not get worse."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/japan-earthquake-and-tsunami-in/8385058/Japans-Emperor-Akihito-expresses-deep-concern-over-Fukushima-nuclear-plant-crisis.html

Please read this quote below and then look at the picture at the top of this post.

Nuclear experts have repeatedly stressed that radiation
releases on the scale of Chernobyl are unlikely or even impossible,
given the Japanese plant’s heavier engineering and additional layers of containment. Still, Tokyo Electric said radiation briefly rose to dangerous levels at the plant Tuesday morning and again on Wednesday.

Above from the Washington Post

But people have to make real decisions.   Do we encourage our family in
Tokyo to leave at any cost, whatever it takes?   Transportation is
difficult, most trains are running, there are blackouts on a regular
basis.    Just how bad is it, how bad could it become?   Yesterday the
winds were blowing the radioactive steam and such across the mainland of
Japan, today the winds are blowing westerly across the Pacific.

And therein lies the dilemma, all based on poorly provided
information, does one recommend drastic action?  Indeed, I would
flee...the cost of fleeing may be fairly dear, but the cost of staying
and have the worst or second worst or third worst scenario play out may
be a very very high cost.

Finally, something to think about, here is one that appears to be a few
days old, from and MIT nuclear "expert" stating in these excerpts--

Well, first off, we can't have a Chernobyl-like situation. The system is designed so that as long as we keep water in there to keep it cool, nothing will happen.

Hypothetically,
if the water all boils and evaporates, then the fuel will stay molten
and eventually melt through the steel vessel. But that's already beyond a hypothetical worst-case scenario for me. 

Then
you have the other containment vessel, with a concrete faceplate
underneath that's between four and 10 feet thick. But melting through
that is hypothetical beyond normal reasoning.

And
then, worst comes to worst, there are pumps that can take water from
the local cooling water supply, in this case the ocean, and just pump
water in there. As long as there's water in there, it might be expensive for the utility to get it cleaned up, but everything is going to be fine.

It might be a financial disaster, but no member of the public has been hurt, and I doubt anybody will be.

 Here is a link to that MIT "Expert" -- he is already proven wrong at many levels.

 Expert describes how bad could it get

This type of thinking reminds me of how our US security "experts" could
not imagine an airliner being used as a weapon.    When will we demand
better?

SEE NO EVIL
Chernobyl was attempted to be covered up 100% at the beginning, even
though eventually 600,000 people used as "liquidators" were eventually
brought in to cleanup, the first 200,000 were exposed to heavy
radiation.  Some pictures (still in my mind from 1986) showed workers in
normal street clothes shovelling radioactive materials into
wheelbarrows.

Tokyo Electric Power tried to cover up their problems at the start, the
Prime Minister was reportedly extremely mad when they finally fessed up a
little bit 3 hours after it had already become a real problem.

GOOD NEWS
Apparently they are bringing in "Firm Power" meaning a new power line
from other utilities so at least the brave workers at the site have some
real power to help in whatever tasks they are doing while wearing full
suits and humping around huge air tanks on their backs.

I will be out in training all day Wed

 

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Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:36 | 1064940 CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

WOW  3 is looking really good. 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:39 | 1064956 AN0NYM0US
AN0NYM0US's picture

Crazy thought, but maybe, just maybe this isn't the end of the world or even Japan

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:47 | 1065001 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

 

It wasn't the end of the world in 1939 - well - it was within five years for 20+ million humans but - you get the picture...

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:50 | 1065013 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

+1

When you're homeless, your family, or whole town is gone  forever and on top of that there is a looming nuclear disaster, the end of the world is relative.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:03 | 1065020 Nobody special
Nobody special's picture

It's time for real-time information isn't it?  Here is a live feed to a Japanese broadcast in English.  http://jibtv.com/program/index.aspx?page=0

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 01:02 | 1065425 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

RED ALERT ••••••• RED ALERT •••••••• RED ALERT


0454: Radiation level unchanged despite choppers dousing reactor - Kyodo, quoting Tepco.

 

  1. 0401: Ceiling of Reactor 4 reduced to frame, power station station operator Tepco says - Kyoto,
  2. 0358: The US is chartering aircraft to Tokyo help Americans leave Japan - Reuters, quoting state department.
  3. 0357: US government authorises voluntary departure of family members of embassy staff - Reuters, quoting state department.
  4. 0355: Pressure is rising again at Reactor 3, the power station operator says - Reuters. That reactor includes plutonium and uranium in its fuel mix.
  5. 0352: The temperature of Reactor 5 is now a growing cause for concern, a Japanese official reports. "The level of water in the reactor is lowering and the pressure is rising," he says.

 

 www.bbc.co.uk 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 01:03 | 1065451 rocker
rocker's picture

Yes, but what matters is the maket is "Holding Up". The Bernanke put lives on, and CNBC is happy about it.

CNBC's Kudlow on Japan Quake: "Be Grateful Human Toll Much Worse than Economic Toll" ... Now that's Class.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:21 | 1065166 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

"Perfect Global Storm"????????????????/

 

 

http://nakedempire.wordpress.com/

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 02:51 | 1065617 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

THE Japanese owner of the stricken Fukushima nuclear plant falsified safety data and "dishonestly" tried to cover up problems there.

Tokyo Electric Power Co injected air into the containment vessel of Fukushima reactor No 1 to artificially “lower the leak rate”. When caught, the company expressed its “sincere apologies for conducting dishonest practices”.

The misconduct came to light in 2002 after whistleblowers working for General Electric, which designed the reactor, complained to the Japanese government. Another GE employee later confessed that he had falsified records of inspections of reactor No1 in 1989 - at the request of TEPCO officials. He also admitted to falsifying other inspection reports, also on request of the client. After that incident TEPCO was forced to shut down 17 reactors, albeit temporarily.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/fukushima-nuclear-plant-owner-falsified-inspection-records/story-fn84naht-1226023073141

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:52 | 1065022 Thomas
Thomas's picture

That MIT boy is a total fool. Don't let the affiliation deceive you.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:55 | 1065041 navy62802
navy62802's picture

Concur. I was dubious after he kept emphasizing the fact that he's not a nuclear engineer the other night. Instead, he's a "nuclear expert," whatever the hell that means.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:18 | 1065155 Misean
Misean's picture

Holiday Inn Express.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:31 | 1065224 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

He probably took a course on elementary nuclear physics in High School.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:31 | 1065228 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

So, we now have two MIT Professors and "experts" who have shredded their credibility beyond anything imaginable.

What happened to MIT? It used to have a fine reputation.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:25 | 1065357 Freddie
Freddie's picture

I guess the imaginary GW scam faded away so they needed a new bandwagon to jump on.  GW made many university professors and "scientists" look like used car salesmen.  Anything for grant money.  

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 06:57 | 1065780 Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

It all about where the funding comes from:

http://www.ll.mit.edu/

"About Lincoln Laboratory
MIT Lincoln Laboratory is a federally funded research and development center chartered to apply advanced technology to problems of national security."

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 07:29 | 1065835 Monday1929
Monday1929's picture

Do they issue MBA's?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:53 | 1065026 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

What he said.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 09:36 | 1066247 swmnguy
swmnguy's picture

"ANONYMOUS":  Gosh, you're just a ray of sunshine, with your wonderful common sense.  Of course the worst thing that has ever happened in the history of the Earth hasn't been "the end of the world."  Yet.  But probably the worst thing that has ever happened was pretty bad for somebody, if not you. 

Having Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuked wasn't the end of Japan either, but I bet they don't think, in retrospect, that being nuked wasn't that bad and maybe just a little bit overblown.  Although perhaps you or your perceived financial interests weren't harmed by Fat Man and Little Boy.

Perhaps you think you see a way in which your ox might not end up being gored in this situation.

As you suggest, your thought isn't crazy.  It is cynically disingenuous, though.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:33 | 1065235 franzpick
franzpick's picture

If you like that, you'll love the aerial file-photo images taken months ago of undamaged reactors 1,2,3 and 4 shown regularly as background on CNN and FOX news desk presentations.

Network broadcast of this deteriorating and possibly worldwide-spreading radiation disaster is an insult beyond discription.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 03:34 | 1065641 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

 

the place is already 40% cooked!  and getting worse...  this author left out the plutonium-laced mox rods in #3, which went ape-shit daze ago! 

MOX fuel rods used in Japanese Nuclear Reactor present multiple dangers

either this is true or not.  several zeroH threads have gone here.  to my knowledge, it has been neither denied nor refuted. 

the problem with this type of propaganda is that it "innocently" leaves out the most dangerous  life-destroying substance in the world, now being served into a jet stream near you.

of course, this writer may not have heard of this, b/c it's a secret, but everything else which was mentioned in these same threads on zeroH just happens to be covered in this asswipe's report.

if he mentioned the plutonium and i missed it, i apologize.  there is non-critical thinking here as to boggle the tobble.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:38 | 1064942 AN0NYM0US
AN0NYM0US's picture

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:30 | 1065369 Michael
Michael's picture

All the grass and vegetation looks dead.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 01:51 | 1065544 zhandax
zhandax's picture

Michael, remember the part about destroyed homes and lack of food being aggravated by "temperatures dipping to freezing" in the reports?  Spring is just around the corner and will almost certainly arrive before containment but neither is there yet.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:36 | 1064944 Jump The Shark
Jump The Shark's picture

We are all wanting this to end well, or end at least

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:38 | 1064945 boeing747
boeing747's picture

What a funny day, Japna PPT, US PPT and China PPT work together to restore 'Financial Confidence around Global'.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:43 | 1064983 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

The fraud will continue at increasing levels until the suspicion of fraud is wiped out!

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:39 | 1064947 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Seem like every night the Plunger Team shows up and starts jacking up futures.

There is a slight dip in the morning, then the mo-mo monkeys start buying crap hand over fist.

But eventually the entire market craters on a huge wave of selling.

Bearish action for sure.

They are trying to paint a "double bottom" on the Nikkei futures, with a slightly higher low....

Heh, wonder if it will really work?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:42 | 1064975 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Wow, you noticed that also?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:26 | 1065191 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

LMAO

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:09 | 1065112 Cleverbot
Cleverbot's picture

No I think they are trying to steal our jobs also they like to hear what the mouse eat for food.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:39 | 1065393 Michael
Michael's picture

The market wants an involuntary redistribution of wealth and numbers that reflect the wealth destruction, but the holders of that wealth and power are doing everything in their power to hold on to their ill gotten gains. It de-cloaks the players in this game so you can actually see the ones who are doing it.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 03:25 | 1065637 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

Well said, bravo!

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 05:31 | 1065714 A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

What the lessons of Japan should be is if you burying a nation in government debt in order to support fake asset values, you are totally fucked when the brutal realities of life strike us without warning.

It reminds me of something I read about the Minoan civilization.  The original theory was that the society was utterly destroyed by the earthquake and tsunami, but archeologists found the damage to a lot of temples showed clear signs of being caused by humans (wood and religious icons cuts with blades, then burnt, suggesting they'd been attacked), so the theory became whether the citizens, who had maintained the religious elites, turned on them after the disaster when the realized they provided no benefit.  The expert wondered whether, post apocalypse, had demanded the same "offerings" from the impoverished farmers, who had simply snapped.

It is my belief that the way the elites share in suffering post any disaster is a key factor in whether the civilization survives.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:40 | 1064957 Carl Spackler
Carl Spackler's picture

Not gonna end well unless somebody stops the Japanese housewives from driving the USD toward 70 yen.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:17 | 1065153 whatsinaname
whatsinaname's picture

You have to remember this -

In 1971 - Yen was 20ish versus the dollar and Nikkei was around 2000. Of course, the Jap int rates were pretty good too then. So we are a long long way from mean reversion on the Yen.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 01:06 | 1065455 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture

What are you talking about?

1971 began w/ $-Yen at 380 and finished at 313.  It's currently about 80.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:42 | 1064960 TomJoad
TomJoad's picture

Every time I see a scorched, twisted, and irradiated panel from a reactor exterior painted with those happy blue and white stylized digital clouds, it makes me want to fucking cry.

 

 

Jump! You Fuckers!

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:50 | 1065279 TomJoad
TomJoad's picture

I will explain, yet again, that the "Jump! You Fuckers!" is directed solely at Lord Blankfein and his ilk. If I was junked for some other reason; "piss off, Posty"

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:49 | 1065408 herewego...
herewego...'s picture

I went to the doctor the other day,
I said 'it hurts when I do that'
he said 'well don't do it'
-Tommy Cooper

Change your sig for a week or two?

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:53 | 1065432 TomJoad
TomJoad's picture

Point taken. Kampai!

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 07:44 | 1065859 Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

Conform, obey, behave!

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:41 | 1064964 ss123
ss123's picture

The looks of #3, to me, seem like they should be able to find the spent fuel rods up the hill.

At lest some of those fuckers had to get blown sky high from the explosion.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:36 | 1065239 Backspin
Backspin's picture

Exactly.  From the diagrams we've seen, the spent fuel pool is at the top of the building, right?  The entire top half of that building is mangled.  It doesn't seem to me that there could be a collection of spent fuel rods sitting in a pool near the top of the building, when the top of the building isn't even there.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:03 | 1065308 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

they would of been better off tossing the spent rods into Mt Fuji

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:09 | 1065317 ss123
ss123's picture

Those were some big explosions too. There had to be some downward force.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:40 | 1064966 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Poof.

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:17 | 1065148 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

That was funny. Laughing My proverbial ass off. That was good! Ohh shit.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:43 | 1065254 Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

An infrared satallite photo would show the location of the spent fuel pools and if the spent rods were blown all over the place....no?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:59 | 1065295 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Shhhh! 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:13 | 1065331 avonaltendorf
avonaltendorf's picture

Of course -- Pentagon and NSA should both have it, which explains why US ships were repositioned and NRC warned that "radiation levels are extremely high." Sad and stupid that Japanese govt has blacked out radiation readings from Fukushima and neighboring prefectures.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:25 | 1065356 seek
seek's picture

Satellite, no as the rods are likely well below resolution limits (and resolution gets way crappier in the thermal IR part of the spectrum).

For a thermal camera on the ground or in the air, it would be trivial. My guess is it's already been done, and they're not sharing those pics.

 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 03:34 | 1065642 Drag Racer
Drag Racer's picture

Satellite, no as the rods are likely well below resolution limits (and resolution gets way crappier in the thermal IR part of the spectrum).

Not true. Resolution from satelite images has been in the millimeter range since 1964.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:42 | 1064969 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

0239 : Questioners want to know how effective the water spraying was at the stricken plant. Mr Edano says investigations are under way to establish that.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:42 | 1064977 ss123
ss123's picture

The armchair quarterback in me can, with confidence, tell them that the operation was not effective.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:11 | 1065319 ArmchairRevolut...
ArmchairRevolutionary's picture

The armchair revolutionary in me can, with confidence, suggest that they would be much more effective if they were to drop wall street bankers; much easier to aim.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:40 | 1065252 Backspin
Backspin's picture

Folks, the water drops obviously did nothing.  The helicopter pilots wouldn't get anywhere close to the thing, for good reason.

Two hours ago they were talking about setting up a water cannon.  Last I heard the commentator was saying the police officer was getting into a special suit.  I'm sure he's about as eager for the job as the helicopter pilot.  What is he going to do?  Put his life at risk for an exercise in futility?

 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 02:06 | 1065562 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Correct me but that plant sits next to the ocean. Seems like they could get water canons on boats and maybe land to just drown the damned things. I understand that the core is sealed but if they are dropping water from the air as I saw earlier it seems they could use heavy duty fire equipment to draw from ponds and the ocean. Put the guys in lead suits and spell them. If the containments are cracked then drown it or cool the housing. Seems like its time for thinking outside the box and some major intervention. Call me Captain Kirk but there's got to be some winning scenario, even if it requires some heroics.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:42 | 1064970 G-R-U-N-T
G-R-U-N-T's picture

And worst case scenario #3 is???????????

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:41 | 1064972 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

The Jap Defense Minister just said, no shit, that Japan considers this a 'level 4' event while 'only' the US and Europe consider it a 'level 6'.

Unreal.  Man, this is ridiculous.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:14 | 1065333 JohnG
JohnG's picture

It's a fucked up world man.  Fucked.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 02:09 | 1065566 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

It's a 6 after the fact, not before. When it goes 7 then they'll admit 6.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:42 | 1064974 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

 

Holy Hannah.

Yes, the cover-up comes before the truth so that they can never reveal the truth if the cover-up holds.

The rationalization is the prevention of panic, markets, and of course, the children.

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:45 | 1064994 chump666
chump666's picture

total mess...so they keep the fuel rods from melting in a pile of garbage??? Yeah that'll work.  Meltdown is probably all ready in full swing.  Japan's government are total dumb arses

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 02:11 | 1065571 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I kind of thought that, too. Actually, I thought lazy as in, "How long were you going to leave the spent rods there rather than separate and bury?" That's the final disposal. As I understood it, the pools were just a short term convenience so the crane operators could quickly load and unload fuel rods. Not a long term storage facility obviously. Now they pay the price.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 03:50 | 1065650 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

hey, freedomGuy,

you go from past tense, what you understood,  to yer present understanding that this was the design for the long term. 

yep. 

makes the electric power cheaper if you don't factor in the waste and leave it around to be dumped into the ecosystems like every other type of fuking industrial waste ever produced.

then you can sell more of these styooopid fuking plants, too!  a capitalist's wet dream.  a citizen's hell. 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 03:56 | 1065654 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

The spent rods have to spend 6-10 years in the pool before they are cool enough to transport and bury or reprocesss.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 20:17 | 1069209 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

No kidding. Well, that changes things somewhat. I thought it only took a few weeks or months. Seems to me, though that you would still store them so in a total fail situation that they could not become a danger. I am sure it would be more expensive but eliminates one set of risks. Those risks are coming to bear now. Thanks for the info.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:47 | 1064995 JackES
JackES's picture

ZH is having a field day.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:48 | 1065000 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

more wild speculation; wonder what the jersey shore people think?

oahu trading????

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:53 | 1065024 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Yea, it's probably a 'non-event'.  Everyone should just go back to sleep.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:23 | 1065335 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

I've spoken with a fair number of people over the past few days about this situation. They would probably be considered just 'everyday folks' and would likely qualify as a representative demographic for most communities in America.

For the most part, I would say that at least 80% of them couldn't care less about this catastrophe. A surprising number of them were completely unaware of the earthquake, tsunami, and nuclear-related emergencies in Japan. With some of them, I attempted to offer a news update. I received the blank, catatonic, thousand-yard stare more than once.

Many people truly DO NOT CARE.

Complete apathy.

 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 02:13 | 1065574 TheMerryPrankster
TheMerryPrankster's picture

Its the fluoride in their water and the constant metasynthetic reality stream from the mass media that they are permeated with. Welcome to Zombie land brought to you by the great folks at Zomcom.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 02:10 | 1065572 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Where do these idiots come from? Fuckan A....

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:48 | 1065002 unionbroker
unionbroker's picture

 i just hope a few million Japanese don't die sitting in their homes because someone was  spouting bs to save face

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:49 | 1065005 Bubbles...bubbl...
Bubbles...bubbles everywhere's picture

The damage has already been done. What is the BOJ going to do? Ask for it's money back?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:50 | 1065015 FischerBlack
FischerBlack's picture

MIT Professor of Nuclear Science and Engineering Ron Ballinger's email: hvymet@mit.edu

 

Someone might want to ask him if he has anything to add to his thoughts as reported above in light of the latest developments.

 

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:54 | 1065029 Wannabee
Wannabee's picture

Must be looking at some photoshop doctoring. Just the other day an MIT academic said this was impossible.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:14 | 1065132 CPL
CPL's picture

What do you expect from someone that has never worked and stayed in school their entire life?

Ivory towers on a sand base.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:35 | 1065237 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

The German Whermacht minister isn't the only one who plagiarized his Ph.D. thesis.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:24 | 1065186 steveo
steveo's picture

Check the link in the article, thats exactly what the MIT guy was quoted as saying in the linked article, "impossible, or beyond reason to even consider"

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:48 | 1065276 Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

Are you sure that was not a quote for Gasmiinder of ZeroHedge?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:22 | 1065180 steveo
steveo's picture

Sweet! we should ask

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:54 | 1065030 ImNotExposed
ImNotExposed's picture

Leave.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:54 | 1065032 Marley
Marley's picture

While watching the helicopters attempting to dump water on 3 & 4 it dawned on me.  This is a microcosm of the global financial meltdown.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:54 | 1065033 jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

From any of the photos I've seen, all the water pipes feeding the facility are snapped in two in several places. So how exactly are they pumping anything into these buildings? Most of the buildings are almost gone.  Someone in Japan land has been lying to the people. Even if you have back up pumps, so what, when all the water supply lines are snapped in half in and around the building, what good are those pumps?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:57 | 1065035 Element
Element's picture

Don't forget, officials already said that the No.4 reactor has spent fuel also inside the reactor itself.

Ok, fill the storage area with sea water, if you can, great, I really hope that works.

But this does not prevent No.4's core melting anyway ... the fuel inside will still melt, like the rest. And 5 and 6 have the same issues, you can flood the fuel store of  5 and 6, but their cores will still melt.

50 guys do not equal success here.

And given the condition of the mid-floor wall on the seaward side of the N0.4 structure, I would not be surprised at all if the No.4 core has already burned through.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:27 | 1065204 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture

The core in reactor 4 has been removed for maintenance. The core is probably burning in the spent fuel tank.

There are several tanks, one for fuel rods just removed from the reactor core. The current core would be very hot and may be the fuel that was or is burning.

If the tank is leaking water there is radiation within building 4 which would make it very hazardous to enter.

Meanwhile, there is no news from the three damaged cores. This means the seawater cooling/boiling/venting cycle is working. A few more days and the pressure on the cores will decline. The operators seem to be ignoring the spent fuel problem and focusing on the cores.

Also, the utility is running electric lines to the complex which, when complete, would give the plant 'hard' power to run cooling pumps and to refill spent fuel tanks.

Hopefully, the Japanese can avoid a meltdown problem. They aren't out of the woods yet. Even if they reactors can be shut down, the consequences will be severe. The entire nuke industry in Japan is on the gallows. It's hard to see the industry surviving even if the problems at Fukushima end in five minutes.

The costs of this 'event' will be massive. The power shortage will be long in being replaced and the Japanese economy may not be able to bridge the 'cost gap' as their output will be constrained for a long time.

Japan is already constrained by huge debts and an instantly overvalued currency.

They have perhaps dodged a bullet but they have about twenty more heading straight toward them.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:52 | 1065284 Element
Element's picture

Ok Steve, but the offical reporting on Tuesday at 11AM NHK press conference said the fuel was still in the core of No.4. I hope you are right about it being out, because I have seen nothing official that says that, I could have missed it though.

And I hope they can get power up, but what of the plumbing.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:02 | 1065305 taraxias
taraxias's picture

you didn't miss anything

 

these fuckers are making this shit up on purpose

 

ignore the disinformation

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:06 | 1065309 Element
Element's picture

Whatever the truth is, we are going to find out fairly soon.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:07 | 1065315 PhattyBuoy
PhattyBuoy's picture

"what of the plumbing" ...

High probability that cooling systems, pumps, conduit, wiring, condensers, heat exchangers & associated holding tanks have been severely compromised in several plants (especially 3 & 4), due to hydrogen blasts.

Therefore, it is doubtful that enabling a reliable power source will resolve the issues plaguing these cores.

Effecting repairs on these cooling systems will be virtually impossible due to extreme (lethal) working environment.

Catch 22: Incrementally worsening onsite working conditions preclude equipment repairs necessary to stabilize the immediate working environment.

 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:20 | 1065344 Element
Element's picture

Yep, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

Bottom-line, if you Prey, now would be a real good time to put a word in for Japan.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 02:15 | 1065578 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I don't have a diagram in front of me but I thought the water lines were actually underground and not in or through the outer housings that blew up. Of course they may have been cracked by the earthquake. Too bad the whole place isn't below sea level and you could just open a floodgate.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 07:24 | 1065818 Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

Try this experiment - Take you working pool pump,throw it in the pool, pull it out and plug it back in. flick the switch. tsunami's create a lot of destruction. 

Water especially salt water buggers AC current motors. the pump motors will require a full rebuild. Large volume External pumps could do it but they had better hurry.

Add to that the pipework is prezel and you you have to come to the conclusion - FUBAR

Concrete encasement ? 

Plan B?

Anything?

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:04 | 1065301 taraxias
taraxias's picture

dodged a bullet my ass

pick a number when you spew garbage like you just posted, the cue of disinformation agents on here is getting longer

Meanwhile, there is no news from the three damaged cores. This means the seawater cooling/boiling/venting cycle is working.

 

 

There's no news because it's bad news, otherwise they'd be bellowing it from the top of their lungs, not "because is working"

TOOL

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:12 | 1065321 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

I don't know about anyone else but my gut felt ripped out around noon today in total mourning..  the place is in shambles..  millions will be dead from this

 

 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 04:23 | 1065664 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

 

we're going thru it, one at a time, dpofsoros.  there's this top 10 earthquake;  then, a top 5 tsunami, and then they'd gladly take ten more of each for what came next.  who wouldn't?

i won't accede to feeling better in a few days, but the emotional realization is a power unto itself.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:20 | 1065349 avonaltendorf
avonaltendorf's picture

Steve wrote: Meanwhile, there is no news from the three damaged cores. This means the seawater cooling/boiling/venting cycle is working.

How does no news = good news?

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:55 | 1065036 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Puff the magic dragon,

Lived by the sea.....

Somehow the recurrent image in my mind is of a puffing, six headed dragon, so untouchable, till it was.

All this sex, lies and no video-tape is not going to end well. And Japanese people have been hugely conditioned into this bow and recceive mind-set. Anyone who has been there (I have, much) knows that there is a seething undercurrrent of frustration in the societal fabric that will burst with such ferocity.....stay indoors indeed.

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/american-cross-nuclear-rumbles/

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:57 | 1065049 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

I remember hearing that the rate of suicide is high. They are definitely into some weird shit sexually. I watched a lot of Anime in my youth, weird, weird shit. Demons raping school girls.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:20 | 1065330 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

you watched Hentai...  if you really were Otaku you wouldn't slander Anime

 

in fact, go watch Speed Grapher (it's on netflix) for an example of racy Anime but isn't Hentai 

 

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:11 | 1065128 Cleverbot
Cleverbot's picture

Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:25 | 1065192 Misean
Misean's picture

I junked you for plagiarising Douglas Adams. Funny bit about Zaphod as it is...

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:19 | 1065346 TheMerryPrankster
TheMerryPrankster's picture

Space is so large, that if you wrote the number "1" followed by all the zeros in the universe, it still wouldn't be a large enough number to describe how large the universe is. I also tried it with the number "3" and "4" with the same results, may try "5" and "6" in the  morning I'm getting a bit sleepy and my zero writing hand is a bit cramped right now.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 04:28 | 1065667 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

 

Hahaha!  try midol, hand-sum...

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:55 | 1065039 jwindebank
jwindebank's picture

So soon we forget:

http://vimeo.com/15829838

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:58 | 1065055 Marley
Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:12 | 1065126 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Volume was messed up on that link

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:34 | 1065233 UGrev
UGrev's picture

My neighbor is from Ukraine. Her family left there because of, as she says "The Chernobyl". One of her nephew's was born with out a left arm below the elbow. Thousands of people died within weeks.. tens of thousands more died over the decades as a result of cancer. Deformities are common in children and bone density of many people is reduced. Her son, who translated for her because her English isn't so great, pretty much told me that all of Ukraine has residual problems from "The Chernobyl".

That was considered a level 7. The US is considering this a level 6. If you ask me, there is a point where any given level and the levels thereafter are moot. 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:25 | 1065355 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

7 is the top level

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:31 | 1065371 JohnG
JohnG's picture

My late wife was from Ukraine.

Breast cancer.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:56 | 1065042 chump666
chump666's picture

The AUD is sitting on the .98 handle...shit goes wrong.  That is going down hard

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:59 | 1065058 Element
Element's picture

Nah, what is unusual is AUD at $1.02, or anywhere near it.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 22:56 | 1065046 chump666
chump666's picture

wow the % swings in FX crossess, AUD is

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:00 | 1065062 unionbroker
unionbroker's picture

does anybody know how long the Japanese  markets are usually open?

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:00 | 1065063 gwar5
gwar5's picture

They're working hard, but it seems pretty clear to me that Fukushima is going to melt down and they are lying and stalling to prepare the public for it.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:06 | 1065091 CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

probably a correct statement

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:27 | 1065205 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Yup. Succint and probably true.

political "Leaders". Oxymoron.

ORI

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:54 | 1065288 Backspin
Backspin's picture

Right.  I'm seriously not trying to be alarmist here, but how could this *not* be much worse than chernobyl.  There is a lot more nuclear fuel in there than at Chernobyl, right?  And we're talking about 4 reactors, right?  If one of them melts down, then nobody will be able to get near it to service the other 3, so if one goes, then it's only a matter of time until the other 3 go.  Is this correct or am I missing something?

Someone please please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 04:41 | 1065679 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

 

i'm in the same primroses, petunia!

slight correction:  MOX fuel rods used in Japanese Nuclear Reactor present multiple dangers

mox = plutonium in fuel in reactor 3?  really?  how much?  it's a secret!

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 01:22 | 1065497 TerraHertz
TerraHertz's picture

"... and they are lying and stalling because they don't know any other way."

Fixed.

You don't honestly believe they have a plan, do you?

Personally, I'd be surprised if even one of these politicians knew the difference between 'isotope' and 'element', or 'heat' and 'temperature'.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:02 | 1065078 FranSix
FranSix's picture

The reactor meltdown(s) will result in the release of radioactive steam several times over as they try to douse fissile material with water.

Either the zirconium deteriorates into oxides, leaving excess hydrogen, or any exposed nuclear material will give off xenon gas.  Xenon gas, when it dissolves into water is trapped where it is and makes an effective neutron reflector, meaning that the reactor can't shut off. 

What you need is electrical power restored so that water can be drawn off to dissipate dissolved xenon gas and returned to cool the fuel rods again.  There also has to be enough space between fuel rods to insert either graphite or boron control rods.

http://www.periodicvideos.com/videos/feature_nuclear_japan.htm

 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:18 | 1065157 gwar5
gwar5's picture

If the rods are melted, or partially melted, does that mean the space between rods is gone for good? 

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:35 | 1065383 trav7777
trav7777's picture

WTF?  Xe-135 is a nuclear poison

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:03 | 1065081 CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

WORST CASE #2A
What about a 5000 degF mass of molten reactor materials (let's just say uranium, although stuff morphs into other stuff that can be worse) melting it's way through a damaged concrete floor, into a pocket of water or sea water below the plant, or rolling right into the ocean?   Purely conjecture, but these are the mostly likely worst case scenarios IMHO.

 

Without changes,currently I see #2A as well -- and if torus is still flooded that liquid/seam would be involved. Eventually into basement foundation and ?? under sea water level ?? -- don't understand where/how it stops, but natural reactions have been found in nature that self extinguished. 

More than one reactor has issues though.  So this senario may be repeated or there may be ground displays and higher fireworks. 

 

??? DUMP/spray BORON with the water. ???

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:10 | 1065121 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Three Mile Island's vessel didn't burn through because the molten core material was uneven; it didn't come down all at once, and it encountered a fair amount of debris at the bottom of the vessel.  As a result the meltdown did make serious hot spots, one of which was pretty big, and it did 'thermally alter' the containment steel (i.e. get it started on melting).  But the bulk of it cooled very rapidly.  Bullet dodged.

So it depends on a lot of detailed things....

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:04 | 1065082 CPL
CPL's picture

@OP

Buddy run!  You don't have to wait until the end of the bottle to call it a night.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:04 | 1065092 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

"...And thus they feel it necessary to withhold information..."

of course they do, just like the commissioner bitch of the 9/11 commissioner stated publicly that it was more important to uphold the institution than tell the truth about 9/11....fuck her and all her brethern in power....

the japanese leaders are conmen - they are not leaders....they are criminal crooks...

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:06 | 1065096 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Not over yet.  Could go either way.  If it ends without a gigantic catastrophe it seems it'll be mainly luck that saves them.  Along with the gallantry of the workers.

But that's OK.  Luck is a fine way to win.  If there's no giant nasty smokey fire....we'll take it.  And honor the fallen who gave all for it.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:11 | 1065102 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Again I ask...

Why are people reporting that workers are @ the nuke plant?

....these heroes don't exist.

Anyone find it queer that reports of workers go "missing" or are "killed" yet there somehow always seems to be 50 workers @ the plant? Did we forget how to add and subtract? More importantly did we forget common sense?

There are NO workers at the plant.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:19 | 1065104 barliman
barliman's picture

 

Water drop approach summary from NHK coverage

They've dropped 4 loads of 15,000 pounds of seawater each, total of 60,000 pounds on reactors 3. The video shows the water dispersing over a wide area when released.

Let's put this in terms you can use. Every time they drop a load of water - it is equal to 6 inches of water depth in a twenty foot in diameter above ground pool. If every drop went into the spent rod holding pool (only one mission was considered successful, air drop operations have been suspended) it is massively insufficient to refill the 8.5 million pounds of water in one of the storage ponds. One done, 284 successful missions required to half fill the storage pool.

This is completely for media consumption. Hopefully, the average Japanese citizen is educated enough to work this out.

barliman

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:30 | 1065212 EveningInAmerica
EveningInAmerica's picture

I was too lazy to do the math.  But yeah...what you said.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 00:42 | 1065403 JohnG
JohnG's picture

Make that 6 loads of 938 gallons.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:09 | 1065108 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

No. 5 is going to blow. I hope I'm wrong, but it's been officially announced that the pressure is rising, which means it's skyrocketing, and there's no cooling whatsoever.

CNN International just announced that 1 minute ago.

It's consistent with the major slam the U.S. launched on the Japanese response via the New York Times article I linked.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:08 | 1065111 ss123
ss123's picture

Japanese dude just mentioned he has doubts the first drop did much.

Thu, 03/17/2011 - 07:42 | 1065858 Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

Yes it absolutely did - it just washed away a bit of (I can't say it) "dust" which by extention runs into a drain then into a containment pond called the "Pacific Ocean"- food bowl of 4 Billion people and a few irrelevant species of Krill/plankton.

Junk away it you don't concur 

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:09 | 1065116 unionbroker
unionbroker's picture

they put the needs of the many ahead of the needs of the individual , a very foreign concept for we in north america to comprehend

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:11 | 1065124 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

It looks to me like they put the need to save face way above the needs of hundreds of thousands and maybe millions of their citizens.

Sickening incompetence of a criminal scale.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:47 | 1065263 snowball777
snowball777's picture

You can get the same reaction from Americans: just tell them there's an iPad2 in it for em.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:10 | 1065117 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

P.S. - Look at the REAMS OF SMOKE/STEAM/WTF-EVER coming from the site.

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:13 | 1065134 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

I'm not sure what you're seeing but it should be extremely grainy as the radioactive particles should be skewing any images

Wed, 03/16/2011 - 23:14 | 1065133 unionbroker
unionbroker's picture

star trek 4 5 or 6 spock dying of nuclear poisoning to save the crew a country full of spocks

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