This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Guest Post: Proof Of Gold Price Suppression
Adrian Douglas, board member of GATA, once again takes a long hard look at the gold market and provides evidence of gold price manipulation. His conclusions:
- the gold price is suppressed through fractional reserve bullion banking
- the gold market is selling on average 45 ounces of gold for every one ounce of real physical gold via “unallocated gold” (fractional reserve bullion banking). In other words the gold market is backed by only 2.3% gold
- The true price of physical gold is currently around $54,000/oz if fractional reserve bullion banking did not exist. In the presence of fractional reserve banking with 2.3% gold backing the market price of “gold” is reduced to $1200/oz
- The US dollar has a purchasing power that is 45 times over valued
- The way to end gold price suppression is for investors to ensure they have allocated physical bullion preferably held outside of the bullion banking system
The solution? Buy physical - "The sick joke of the Gold cartel is that whether you hold dollars or unallocated gold you only have 2.3% of gold backing! However, the trade of the century is to buy actual physical metal with your dollars, or if you have unallocated gold to demand physical delivery. In this way you can trade something with 2.3% gold backing for an investment that is 100% gold."
Proof Of Gold Price Suppression, Submitted by Adrian Douglas of Market Force Analysis
»
- 16775 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
$54,000 bitches
Finally I read another analyst who arrives at the similar $55,000 / oz that fofoa predicts.
The Bearing declines to post, except for this reply, while he is on vacation.
$1185 is a bargain, buy physical now.
So he refers to himself in thrid person?
Hahaha!!!
+one OZ at any price :D
Third person reference is a rhetorical flourish that becomes him. Being on vacation prompts the move to distance himself from the posting of the comment. I thought it rather classy.
Good info but the most relevant disclosure comes at the end. Adrian discloses that GS is now actively advising mining companies to hedge their books. Hmmm. Whom, do you think, will be on the other end of those forward trades? Just like the CDS fraud which they just settled, GS is again trying to cover their rear-ends (for future delivery issues) AND profit at the same time. In 2008, when Goldman figured out that all their CDOs were worthless, they offloaded as many of them as they could. Then they ruthlessly turned around and profited by selling CDS to AIG. Similarly, they are now protecting themselves from the coming physical squeeze in gold and setting themselves up to profit from the forward sales of any mining company silly enough to fall for their schtick. This to me, is further proof that gold is destined to trade much, much higher.
Are you commenting on the third person style, or just hijacking a top spot?
Love ya, Turd!
"The Dude abides, man."
George likes his chicken spicy.
This may be oversimplistic, but doesn't the purchasing power of gold remain relatively constant, or at least it swings around some relatively stable mean (in absolute terms)? If that's true, then sure, $54,000 per oz is possible, but wouldn't it also imply $1.5M for a low-end car or $10M for a basic house?
If gold were to become a currency, I think that might be in the ballpark. The fiat dollar would be pretty worthless at that point.
In Malaysia gold IS becoming a currency...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jul/17/malaysia-gold-dinar-thwart-capitalism
Now Birdbrainke will tax Malaysian currency?
Yo sucka,
That's a good point. 54K is a big number that quickens the pulse of goldbugs (relative to now), but what would that future context be? And what would we have gone through to get there?
In trying to find a 'true' value for a gram (I'm in Europe) of gold, I would use a 'basket of stuff' comparison (basic goods, e.g., a bushel of wheat, ton of iron, a good man's suit, etc.), pricing it in historical average gold ounces and current fiat currency, then make my projection from there.
But this exercise is just for fun, you understand. Being in old Europe, we are less enamored of mad-max porn scenarios, and guns are not very common. I trust gold more than the alternatives and cling to my convictions, whether it's 35/oz or googolplex per ounce.
per ounce.
Yes. We Americans can still shoot back. We are not castrated. But 95% of all owners would trade in for food with a simple glitch in the JIT. There will never be any mass resistance in the USA - it's either Road Warrior or Prison Planet (aka Lock Step: www.rockefellerfoundation.org/news/publications/scenarios-future-technology) for the survivors.
sucka, that's a great question. I guess if gold were the sole currency and you divided the world GDP by the amount of physical gold in the world, the POG would be pretty high, but then wouldn't there have to be a huge depression to bring GDP down and gold and GDP back to a normal balance?
can you change it? the depression will happened anyway...you cannot print your way out of it....we know we are smart and exceptional, but (no offense) so were the others before us for 6000 years....dont you think they thought too of printing their way out ???
in words of greenspan...it cant work - got to go back to basics (the last sentence is mine no offense to maestro)
Well, people SAY that, but it seems to me that industrialization should have dropped a lot of prices a lot further than they have. When gold isn't a currency, there is less demand, so it buys a much smaller portion of world goods.
In reality, it ought to buy a fine mens suit that has been HAND MADE.
time to buy in very large bulk. fundamentials allways catchup eventually. shortselling stocks can work well also.
covert2.wordpress.com/2010/06/23/various-markets/
thats alot of bitches!
First! Are you frontrunning the blog?
That’s just plain nonsense you are comparing apples to oranges. Investors DO NOT WANT PHISICAL GOLD! If they did they would buy it. They are not all that stupid not to know what they are buying is paper. Yet they buy with vigor and vim. WHY? You might ask. Because that paper pays them a nice profit. It adds to their portfolio and they can easily leverage or sell it. It is worth it’s weight in gold to the average smart investor.
If they wanted shinny yellow metal they would buy it, it’s not hard to get you know.
Every other doom porn brokerage house out there sells the stuff. GEE if it was so valuable, they sure are a bunch of swell guys to let you have it for spot plus a small premium.
And not it’s actual “value” LOL. GLD is Fiat, and like all Fiat it will too fail. Taking it’s artificially high price with it. Leaving physical holders Literally holding the bag.
Good Luck
"The average smart investor".... surely this is humor, right?
The average investor has no idea why Mr. Market confers a fat premium (over NAV) to PHYS vs. GLD.
You are right I should of said the majority of investors as the amount of GLD far outweighs the Physical market. Most of the money is in paper.
The COMEX Both sells the products and set’s the price. If the price goes up they can sell more products and lure more investors into the Ponzi. The new investors pay off the old. So they don’t loose when the price goes up. However sooner or later the COMEX will run out of suckers. When the GLD collapse happens the price of spot will collapse. Physical takes it’s price from spot. Some not all but enough holders of physical will dump their gold when they see the price plummet. This will cause the decline to accelerate.
Causing more and more holders of physical th loose faith in the shinny yellow rapidly decreasing in value metal. No gold will not go to zero, it will never go to zero it has some value and always will. The question is what is it’s actual value?
Good Luck.
false. It will be the opposite. When GLD collapses, the price of spot will be skyrocketting.
But, I have a firm rule. Never argue with people who don't knoe the difference between loose and lose.
So they don’t loose when the price goes up.
What is up with people and this word? It is an epidemic everywhere!
Or shinny and shiny.
it's worse than then and than
they should havr this for the gaptcha
Investors DO NOT WANT PHISICAL GOLD! If they did they would buy it. They are not all that stupid not to know what they are buying is paper.
They think that the paper is backed by real gold. They don't know that the "gold" they own via paper is co-owned by 45 other investors. They may be uninformed by they are rational.
So you actually believe that Billion dollar money managers and hedge fund managers don’t know what they are buying and you do?
Good luck with that.
Of course they don't understand that fact, or they don't understand economics. Does that suprise you?
A reasonable man might purchase a rare object thinking that he can make money by selling this rare object to another investor. But if other investors can come into the game by purchasing xerox copies of the self same rare item any hope of profiting is greatly dimished.
Why would an investor knowingly work against his own self interest by willing particiapting in a scheme where his own purchase fails to drive the price higher thereby limiting his potential profit?
hedge fund managers trade with other people's fiat. They don't care. I bet anyone in the know has at least some PM.
EdwardTeach has a valid point. Investors in GLD are normally aware that they are investing in the price movement of gold and not the physical. It's speculatory like nearly everything else in this Vegas crap table economy.
And when the lights go off in the casino, and TD Ameritrade isn't picking up the phone, what will your GLD or PHYS be worth? Read "One Second After" to understand when the power grid goes down, what you hold in your hands is what you "own".
Absolutely right. If we just called it by it's real name "gambling" it would be so much clearer. Most people in Vegas are aware that they are gambling too I hope, and sure as hell don't call it investing.
Of course they know the gold market. Yes, they are attempting to earn profits on gold. However, this has nothing to do with the article.
Gold is a measure of the value of the currency. It is not fiat. Still, when the TRUE value is obfuscated by fiat mechanisms, it hides the true value of gold and the TRUE VALUE OF THE DOLLAR. This is the purpose. The dollar and all other fiat currencies are attempting to control the perception of value.
Holders of physical gold know this and plan accordingly. Gold is cheap- because its' price is being held down to protect the dollar.
This is battle between real money and fiat. When the battle comes to a head- you'll be unable to purchase gold at any price, but those dollars will be real easy to get.
Holding the bag... what the one with your head in it?
Alfredo Garcia CFP®
Yes, anything we value has no inherent value but through our culture and society. What do you define as Not Fiat? Wheat and rice? Plutonium? Tough stuff to carry and trade with.
Gold has unique properties which has made it the primary store of value for thousands of years among many cultures, especially European ones. If its a fiat, its a fiat with a long history, much longer than dollar or euros.
and that is why they will tax the hell out of it come 2012 when they let the lid off the price
Just ditch your citizenship. The U.S. is the world's largest tax haven...for everyone except those of us born on the plantation, of course.
Escape, ok--but to where? Where will capital NOT be taxed at ridiculous levels?
As John Derbyshire said, "We are doomed."
Jim Sinclair told everyone to take delivery of gold over two years ago exactly because of this. Old news. Neat that everyone is finally admitting it. Mr. Sinclair also said people were going to pretty upset when they can't get gold when they "think" they own it.
Sinclair says a lot things. Like he said to buy his gold mining company shares, one problem he wasn't telling people that he was selling shares. He was buying shares and releasing a press release through the company as a private placement, then out the backdoor he was selling. It wasn't until a reporter researched it that it came to light.
Oh lets not forget when he said he said he would shutdown his website if gold didn't reach a certain price I believe back in 2004 area, oh what did he do, he put a password on it and gave everyone passwords, eventually he just removed the passwords and now the website is back up.
All the gold that ever existed in 1929 still existed in 1930, and 1931, and 1931 and even in the 1940s when Hilter started putting people in ovens.... didn't help anyone. Someone is going to have to go, heck Europeans were the largest holders of gold then... completely wiped off the map.
holding gold..."didn't help anyone"
You left out the important caveat: knowing when to run with it. Unlike their paper currency, it spent just as well in the UK, Argentina, or the US.
The problem with the people in the ovens? They just couldn't comprehend the government and their neighbors were capable of such things. Today, no one can claim such ignorance.
This time nowhere to run, very few places that will be spared.... billions will have to go this time. Either the slow route... starvation or the fast router... Hilter and ovens.
Don't tell us...you are Hitler's clone.
Mako I asked you this before and I got no answer.
The financial system collapses, anarchy ensues. A one oz bar of gold is laying on the side of the road in front of your place. Do you go pick it up ?
would you ? (you cant eat it)
A starving man given the choice of a 1 oz gold bar and a $100,000 candy bar, will take the candy bar every time. Food (and other essential items) trump gold in total collapse of the "system". Gold depends on an exchange system for it's value.
A starving man given the choice of a 1 oz gold bar and a $100,000 candy bar, will take the candy bar every time.
If you envision yourself in a world where all available resources consist of one piece of gold and one candy bar, you are correct. But in any situation which is even marginally better than your example, gold would clearly trump the candy bar.
That's a little too hypothetically pure for me to accept.
What about a world of ten people, nine gallons of water, and 5 gold bars, after say 7 days of no food and minimally sufficient water to survive?
The marginal stuff works when you believe in the magic of economics but not the reality of natural laws.
Take the five gold bars, put them in a sock, bash the other nine heads in and have a glass of water. That is the natural law of man.
If that really is the natural law of man then you should pray that the Fed never ends and that the Reds and Blues continue to regulate us and protect us from ourselves.
I believe that man is smart enough (and selfish enough) to realize that working together voluntarily will always produce a better outcome than mutual murder.
That's a fair enough answer.
For some reason the thought about bringing a bag full of gold (knife) to a gun fight came to mind.
that is a perfect statement right there.
I guess if you frame it as an either or scenario. But Life isn't always like that.
Why does it have to be a total collapse back to neandrathal times? Ever read what happenned in Argentina? Check out Ferfal.
Often the future is more like the present.
A starving man given the choice of a 1 oz gold bar and a $100,000 candy bar, will take the candy bar every time. Food (and other essential items) trump gold in total collapse of the "system". Gold depends on an exchange system for it's value.
Absolutely wrong. If he thinks he can get more than one candy bar for it he'll take it to trade up to a steak, or at least two candy bars. Of course, I'm assuming that when you say a $100,000 candy bar that you refer to the name of that candy bar and not one that actually costs 100,000. If thats the case, I find it hard to believe that 1 oz of gold wouldnt be worth more than one candy bar such that he could trade it for two candy bars. Unless you're postulating that the entire worlds supply of food fits in less than one Olympic size swimming pool...
If I am holding chocolate and water in this world, you can keep your gold.
Fine by me. Water is easy to come by, and gold buys anything I want, whether chocolate bars or lives.
Gold wouldn't buy my chocolate or water.
Reductio ad absurdum, hence invalid.
If a person has to choose between an object or life, usually they are going to pick life. Europe had plenty of gold, starvation and death followed regardless. Plenty of gold in Russia, you should see what they have been doing over there for the last 100 year, many examples of starvation and population decline.
If a chicken cage is sitting on the side of the road I might go pick that up, so what? Production will continue to decline but not necessarily in a straight line, all the gold ever mined will still exist... so what? Plenty of people are going the way of the dinosaur whether they have gold or not, someone is going to have to go.
Lots of gold in Russia, but those who had it DID NOT STARVE.
They might have been murdered by their government, but they certainly didn't starve. Lots of them escaped with their gold to go be rich elsewhere.
I junked you because your "billions must go" spiel gets a little tiresome when it's 100% COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC!. (Even though I fear you may be correct)
Enough already. We get it. Quit borrowing money with compound interest. Quit breeding. Quit fiat ponzi. Can you ever just comment on the topic at hand without including the apocalypse?
So you're saying it's better to be the one putting people into the ovens than vice versa? I guess I better get a bigger oven, because mine is taxed by a large turkey
Never said any such thing. I don't know where you got that from. The point being someone is going to have to go, one way or another, just watch over the decades to come... as production capacity is taken offline.
Wait, they'll be suggesting burning down the vacant houses before too long. Just like in Europse they were dumping grain out at sea while on shore people were starving.
Where do you get this shit? You are thinking of AMERICA buring grain in the fields to keep prices up as a means of battling deflation. People's gold backed currency still bought food, just not as much as it would have naturally. Only those who had no gold (at that time, dollars WERE gold) starved.
But no, you think everyone is going to die tomorrow and theer is nothing that can be done. How fucking stupid.
That is already happening in Detroit and Flint, MI. They are tearing down entire blocks. Here are new houses never lived in and some never completed being torn down by the Banksters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsgOaCZ2Lag&videos=ztNLcOlwnY8
Mako, do you have a link to the Sinclair story?
Thanks.
mako - you forgot the "dig a hole" argument from the biggest investor - buffet...and the bubble argument....to which i got to say, we might consider the bubble argument when buffet is bankrupt....how can you have a bubble when the biggest investor take pride on NOT owning any ounce of gold???
also, mako - dont forget when counting the gold from 1929 - to add what was discovered in Tora Bora - 1 trillion in reserves.....thats pretty large wouldnt you say?//
wondered what happened to Bravo - he is usually pretty active trying to keep the masses online
keep pumping postions so they can dump?
Physical Gold, Bitchez. This is the only way you can be certain that you own gold (subject to assaying).
Would advice to have few cases of Russki Standard too!
I read this, fofoa and mineset and i really gotta fight the urge to go deeper down the rabbit hole. The only thing that keeps me from digging in is a quote from a Treasury official, not sure who or when, or exact wording, but something like "going to have their arms burned up to their armpits..."
I don't doubt for a minute that it is or should be going a lot higher, but I'm equally sold on the goobermint wanting to go balls deep on galt.
$54,000 Beeatchezzz
for fuck's sake!!!
Personally, long Guns, ammo, butter, in that order, cause without the first two, you KNOW what you'll need the third for.... ;)
Then long Gold
These wacko's don't get it themosmitsos, they have no idea of the shitstorm that is coming. They all stil think they are going to get rich.
I had this one wacko telling me how he was going to buy a whole downtown block in Chicago with highrises and all for one gold coin. I told him he was a wack job, I said if you can buy that much in Chicago with one gold coin, the last place you would want to be is downtown Chicago.
in this we agree. Gold is not a spec trade.
It's a GTFO and go somewhere hopefully out of the way like WAY south america.
There are lots of places already out of the loop, man. Brazil is a net energy exporter, for example.
WW2 missed most of the world, WW3 will as well. You worry too much, man. What we're facing is a protracted decline, no need for a complete crash and zombie apocalypse
agreed. mako's paranoia is so over the top im wondering if he would qualify for a 5150. precisely why do billions have to bake or starve, and why does it have to happen now? things could get ugly, and human beings are notorious for their lack of imagination, but arguing the global financial reset requires the death of billions is asinine. take a xanax...or 100.
exactly. currencies collapse. life goes on. and if you got gold, you can exchange it into whatever the new currency is. its, like, a miracle.
The point many are making is that extreme currency events correlate closely to periods of war and instability. The last time something like this happened in the US, say 1812, people still used animal power for transport. What happen when oil supplies are cut way back and gas prices explode or are rationed?
Then you use your gold and silver to buy those things, on the black market if necessary.
Mako claims this happens every 80 years, but for some reason he claims this time everyone has to die, as if everyone has died every 80 years since forever.
its, like, a miracle.
Very much like a miracle. It is as if our creator (or whoever existed before the Big Bang spewed our universe from, apparently, nothing) gave us a special element for storing value and facilitating trade. And we, in our wisdom, pull out all the stops to avoid using it.
Brush,
Mako seems right on because of one main reason.
Finance was never as tightly inter-twined with life in general as it is today. The great global supply chain, which in many cases killed small, efficient local ones, is crumbling AND it required LOC's and such other financial devices to remain solvent and functioning.
So, in this time of great coupling across many or even most facets of our lives, any one leg falling off means collapse to an already unsteady system.
ORI
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com
These people just don't get it... they think a product goes from Location A to Location C to the consumer because the end consumer pays for it... hahahaha. If that were the case you wouldn't be seeing the collapse.
mako im not living under any delusions here buddy. i think there is a lot of uncertainty out there. where we disagree is where i see uncertainty, you see certainty. you're sure that BILLIONS will have to die before the world is once again...what? financially stable? self sustaining? i got some sad news for you - you're not smart enough to predict that sort of thing. the beauty of being self-made and educated is knowing whats bullshit and whats not. youre full of it.
ORI,
History tells us that finance has always been just as intertwined. We think we live in a progressive world, but nothing changes. The elites continue to manipulate the masses to insure their lifestyle and the masses go along.
In the middle, those intelligent enough to want something more, but incapable of breaking through the glass ceiling. They may hope to reorganize the system or revolution implementing another set of ideals, but they are rank amateurs in the art of mass manipulation. Don't kid yourself, the masses will accept the short run gain versus the long run gain every time.
Excellent post. Just add...and learn how to shoot them.
Hate to be in the you can't eat gold crowd, but given a week without any clean, potable water, I'm thinking it's pretty clear what's more valuable - a ton of gold or a ton of water.
There exists a growing subset of plausible scenarios of the future wherein gold is about as valuable as a steaming plate of Bernanke shit.
The real market now to focus on is Nature, not the Fed. We've triggered the greatest depression in Life in the past 65 million years, since the dinosaurs disappeared.
My brother was in La. after the hurricane in 05, 72 hours after the hurricane went through... people were still walking down the road covered in mud and begging for WATER. He couldn't believe it, he was like they were actually coming up to his car looking for water or gas. What is funny is they were surrounded by water.
Wait till production comes to a stand still.
That's essentially no different than a zombie outbreak scenario. Figure out how to survive zombies, and one should do okay as we cross these emerging planetary thresholds.
For me, when you say production, I think immediately ecosystem services, and their steep decline throughout Earth's diversity of living systems. Absolutely, I agree...when ecological production halts, I hope all have a ready-to-implement zombie survival plan.
We are the inflated bubble that is shattering Life as we know, trade, barter, sell and destroy it.
Owning gold is not synonymous with NOT owning water -- or ammo, or first aid kits, or anything else that is useful. JFC, just skip the absolutism and listen up!
True in some, maybe most, cases but for the poor, gold or water may well be mutually exclusive.
Mako is WRONG.
Production WILL NOT collapse.
It DID NOT during the 1930s. There were bad times and then dictators stepped in everywhere and COMMANDED production.
That is what will occur AGAIN. There is NOT going to be a fucking zombie apocalypse, just get over this disaster madmax shit.
The credit system collapsed in Germany and it took them all of a mere 10 years to get revved back up and start blitzkrieging people.
So their dragnet against the banker clan was a bit broad, you know what they say about making an omelette
Don't let the fear trolls separate you from your Gold.
I second both you and Trav.
Motion carried
Mee too.
1932 Ukraine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeTMlNBDBAg
2009 Zimbabwe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubJp6rmUYM
Very sad to view and I knew of the Ukrainian starvation.
As an aside, and I am anti war, genocide, murder... Have any considered how much greater the population of humans on Earth would be without all the wars, murders, genocides that have occured in total?
Perhaps the population would have become so enormous that we would have already experienced some great extention event?
I don't know the answers to these questions
Production did not collaspe... hahahaha. Production was collapsing but the capacity still remained, go open up a history book. The only way they got out of it is because Hilter and Japanese wiped a good portion of the production off the map and they liquidated 10s of millions of people.
The system in Germany collapsed, which lead to the some of what you saw during the roaring 20s, Germany somewhat recovered for a few years because the rest of the world's system was still functioning. Once the UK peaked, it was all over, then the US and then the rest of the world... this is a fact.
Yes and within 10 years in EVERY case, dictators stepped in and dictated production. Didn't they?
Whether or not there is a liquidation is up to US.
the "credit" system is NOT a synonym for credit in the abstract. Life can function WITHOUT mass liquidation so long as true real bills credit functions, as it did in the era before the Bankpire.
The evil here is the debtmoney system. The Germans realized this was the cause of their collapse.
There is adequate oil and food to feed everybody and NO NEED whatsoever to let a balance sheet ledger control life. But when you let bankers and the banking clan control money and make their debt confetti into money, things end up ugly
I'm talking natural production, which ecologists refer to as ecosystem services. If humanity learns nothing else, it should be that you don't COMMAND ecological production. These functional services are the basis of all life on earth. All human production is derivative of these emergent properties of living systems.
But don't believe me - here's a start - http://www.millenniumassessment.org/en/index.aspx
For the ongoing "Death of Birth", just google EO Wilson, one of if not the world's foremost ecologist focusing in biodiversity.
There will be no zombie apocalypse, but there are plausible scenarios of the future that look a lot like one.
I could care less what happens to human production. Nature ultimately doesn't care so much either.
Have to disagree:
This ain't the 1930s.
This ain't 1920 Weimar Germany.
The entire world has been using similar toilet paper for cash, and it's not going to end well.
1 gallon of water per person per day is minimum stocking level.
Got that years ago.
Got food next.
Then got silver.
Then got gold.
Then got paper.
And security to take care of it all.
Proceed at your own pace, but do it in that order and sleep well.
I think that you forgot to mention that along with all of the things one needs to accumulate, one absolutely must get out of debt. If fiat formally goes poof, we can readily expect the counterparties to our debts to call everything back in by any means necessary. I know that many people have little concern in their own real estate situation - but for anyone who does have a concern - get the bank off of your back ASAP if you believe there will be a currency problem.
And lest we forget,
Rule Number 1: Cardio
Haha, exactly!
The rules of Zombieland work surprisingly well, whether for actual zombies, zombie banks, or for people saturated with mindless food, mindless TV, and no meaningful thought...or cardio!
He doesn't have to convince me. Just watch the price movements. A slow gradual rise that accelerates and then suddenly plunges downward like a cliff. Again, again, and again.
Physical gold is all well and great, until you realise the security aspects of storing it. $54,000 an ounce deteriorates to nothing once you deduct the costs of paying an army to guard it for you, plus vault construction, plus insurance, etc. etc.
Or you could just stick it under your bed and don't tell anyone. Hello.
Someone always knows.
you're right. better to just move into the gutter NOW so as to present a low wealth cross section to anyone.
because EVERYONE is going to become a zombie going after gooooolllllld. It's a good thing all my guns have serial #1 on them, and everyone else's on the internet. Apparently, nobody else has any at all.
We'll all shoot our way to prosperity. This type of shit happens in Africa. It won't happen if there aren't a bunch of africans around. In Japan, life after an apocalyptic quake features NONE of this.
ROFLMFAO.
You misunderstand at least one commonly accepted version of guns. It's not about shooting ourselves to prosperity. It's about defending one's family about what may encroach from the shadows of an impending Dark Age. Or did you trust your friendly neighborhood sovereign to take of that for you?
Regarding your gutter point, that just shows you're either deliberating mistating my and others points, or you actually believe a most simplistic version of a mischaracterized view.
Certainly the bloodlust crowd exists, and sits with eagerness at the end of the world, no different than a kid at a carnival. They belong in the gutter. But there does also exist an enlightened Dark Age, or at least some light in the shadows...which is best protected by guns and ensuring the basis of well-being. Gold is neither necesssary nor sufficient in those scenarios.
Zombies don't eat gold, they eat brains. That's part of the entire point about certain probabilities in which the operative principle is that you can't eat gold. In others, gold would be extremely valuable as it's more reliable a store of value than anything grown or created by current sunlight.
Save a ton and get yourself the best possible insurance: Smith & Wesson
Just to be extra safe, you might consider doing some preemptive shooting with your Smith and Wesson. That will discourage any possible marauding hordes from even thinking of robbing you. You can also start target practicing in your back yard. When the neighbors see that you are as skilled as Clint Eastwood, they'll by begging you to protect them as well.
Again, would you rather your friendly neighborhood sovereign protect your life, liberty and survival instead?
Heck at $10k an ounce you don't need that much. A million bucks would only be 100 coins which could be stashed a whole bunch of different and creative ways - like inside the lead bulb at the bottom of the keel on your boat that you just happen to sail away on one day...
Note to self: remove gold from lead bulb at bottom of keel on sailboat. . . apparently people are on to that one.
LMAO !!
Merc, so how long ago did you read the "golden keel" ???
I haven't actually but I knew there had to be a story like that somewhere. Same with toy soldiers made of gold instead of lead (and painted up) -which I actually attempted once when I was a kid. My Mom, so upset with herself for buying a couple Maple Leaves at the very top of the early '80s run-up actually gave me one when I was about 11. I promptly broke out my toy soldier mold collection and tried to melt the thing down on the kitchen stove. 2000 degrees F was not forthcoming and I had a small propane torch going when my Dad looked up from his newspaper and cut the whole project short. I wonder if he gold would have stuck/fused to the aluminium mold...
Hahahackhackha! Funny.
What if you're far from the coast?
Here's my idea: buy a junkyard (a good business in hard times) containing lots of metal scrap (old cars are good), bury your gold, then plop a car or two on top. Metal detectors won't be able to distinguish it, casual snoopers won't be able to move the cars around, and the spot will be well marked (provided you note which cars are 'important'). Of course, you'll want to use cars that nobody will want to take out of your yard -- like a 70s gas-guzzler.
You obviously lack imagination....
Apparently, they'll be coming after my chocolate chips and will be ignoring my $54,000 gold coins.
Through the entire cycle of the USSR collapse tons of things retained value - decent real estate, various goods, natural resources. One can also study black markets to understand what gains most value among tradable items.
Gold is just a shiny metal. No need to fetishize it as something really special, and it is not ideal for a basis of a monetary system either: http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2007/06/misconceptions-about-...
Perhaps it will go up a bit more, but too risky to get into at this stage so late in the game ...
and it is not ideal for a basis of a monetary system
Agree - mostly; in the current context. However "ideal" is 100% context-sensitive.
The thing about context is - it tends to change, often when you least expect it.
True...all things are relational. But relational to Absolutes. At least Absolute as we are subject to them, meaning inviolate laws of nature. You can't negotiate with these, or break them.
So I'd just say not 100% context sensitive - you have to at least subtract out the basic forces of Life that are non-negotiable. Not relativistic, just relational.
"Gold is not special"
I would argue that by virtue of its inert qualities, gold in the form of refined bullion without impurities is the only metal with that property.
There is no risk in bullion as an asset and it can be leveraged up by 100X, because it will never fail. That's why there is so much interest in controlling proprietorship of gold by bullion banks and central banks.
Then there's one more detail. IF the discount rate collapses once again, and perhaps into the negative, all of the accumulated risk in the financial system can't be rolled over.
There is only ONE monetized asset that provides as a store of value in that case.
Iridium is even more inert...and denser.
But gold is YELLOW. Gold is rare enough to serve as a wealth asset but not so rare as to be useless for it. Plus it looks cool.
Platinum is more inert, denser, and significantly rarer than gold. Either gold is overpriced or Pt is underpriced.
Platinum has no history as a store of value, it is not recognized the world over, it has no standardized testing procedure for purity, and only a few coinage issues are available. There are other aspects of gold that set it apart from the other noble metals, but this should be enough. Gold's value is not determined by its rarity for these reasons. Of course, you already know all this, and your comment is for the sake of argument. My reply is for the sake of the curious who can use the information.
naw man, gold is prized basically because it has all the noble metal stuff goin for it but it looks cool. Seriously. People like shiny things that have cool colors.
I am stockpiling Californium-252, personally...can't nothing touch that shit for value density
Fishermen that have more than enough fishing lures will buy 'new' lures that are rumored to be 'sure fire bass getters'...Of course the new lures are always shiny.
Women's ear rings are similar to fishing lures...they get men to spend money.
but gold is different, where fishing lures rust and become chewed up by fish, especially salt water species, gold remains the same.
Women's ear rings don't do the women a lot of good when the woman becomes very mature, gold otoh, remains the same.
Stick with gold, ignore new lures for fish or men.
Yea that Mish article was from 3 years ago. How things change:
Saturday, July 17, 2010"Here's four interesting ways businesses, private citizens, and counties are coping with the economic depression. The first is the most important one. Let's hope it catches on.
Gold, Silver, Copper, Freely Accepted as Money"
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/07/ron-paul-silver-ounce...
...and you, Sir, are obvioulsly late to the game.
Gold works well as a currency until the friggin pols, bankers decide they must have a war and need to borrow a zillion dollars to finance the war. Ask Lincoln...oh wait. Read some history and generally it's some damn, usually useless, war that screws up economies.
Better yet, read what Smedly Butler USMC General said...
War is a racket
So...if you own GLD and hold over (100k?) shares you can demand physical delivery right? How many GLD shares do you think would have to be exchanged for physical in this way and/or physical gold stockpiled by other means by a sizable investor(s) for it to start to have a serious impact on the spot price?
I mean, with this fractional reserve business, every ounce held in your hand (or in a vault owned by some hedge fund) is leverage on the market spot price it would seem.
I don't know if he's still doing it but I seem to remember Einhorn buying oil futures, taking physical delivery and actually storing it somewhere as a cost effective alternative to just rolling contracts (but not to try and effect a price spike obviously).
However, could you do just that with gold given these circumstances? Would Paulson's (what, $20bil?) fund with it's large gold position be able to force the spot price up signifigantly by stockpiling bullion? How much physical would have to be taken out of "circulation" or "banking" in this way to effect a real price bump?
It seems too easy which means this frational reserve thing can't be that big a deal.
"Pricing" is irrelevant, whereas, owning it is paramount. The jig is up, folks.
If you don't own it, get a little bit for your own well-being. Nobody has said to sell your children and buy gold. Just a bit for the possibility that times could get difficult. Do you have a couple of extra cases of bottled water on hand? Well then, what's the difference other that what it cost. The gold/water spread should be telling you something.
Nice one, Rocky.
Smartest advice I've heard in ages.
Look... I am as much of a Gold Bitch as anyone... but I find spurious the argument that you can interpret the traded volume (180,555 T/year) divided by the yearly fresh supply (est 4000 T) as another expression of the fractional reserve ratio. This is just a reflection of trading velocity.. nothing else.
Doesn't make sense. Really, it doesn't.
Name one solitary thing in this "market" that does make sense! You are messing with the deck chairs with all that mental mathematics. It does not matter. "Understanding" some things does not preclude involving yourself in the active acquisition of something that just MIGHT come in handy. At times you gotta go with your gut.
I hear ya... maybe I am thinking too hard. I think I will handle.. feel the heft of one of my PCGS MS69 slabbed quintets of 2009 Buffalos... that oughta help calm me down.
Great! A slabbed Buff. You paid a bit over spot for that baby. I've got an MS-70 Buff that I'd bust outta that slab in a heartbeat. As Johnny would say, it's shinny (sic) and you can hold it in your hand. Heft a roll of silver Eagles if you really want to make some wood.
First, I'll take two of these (@ $430. each) over and oz. of gold.
http://www.jgsales.com/popup_image.php/pID/4469
Well, it's not like one has to make a choice. How many rifles and ammo can you own before you have enough? After you have enough, buy a few ounces of gold. You are making the same argument as above: store water! Ok, fine. One can have enough water. Owning gold is NOT to the exclusion of owning anything else in the world. We have to stop the absolutism and get real. There are many ways of insuring one's future well being, gold just being one of them.
LOL. Rocky, you're on fire! I totally agree.
Post another comment somewhere, quick.
Unless these parties are trading it back and forth a zillion times, it's fairly safe to assume that the ounces are never intended to exist. It's virtually inarguable that paper gold and paper oil and paper everything outnumber the amount of real in the world.
These sellers and buyers that are creating the volume aren't looking to deliver or take delivery of physical. The entire futures markets have become divorced from physical realities, look at the cocoa markets lately
It's somewhat amazing and very disheartening that many of readers, including ZH staff, could read the same article as you and totally miss or ignore that glaring piece of illogic.
I play poker for fun (probably like many commodity traders play with gold for fun) and after stepping to a table with $500 in chips, over the course of an evening, I may culmulatively bet several thousand dollars, resulting in an ebb & flow of chips that usually results in me leaving the table with about as much as i arrived with. Adrian Douglas's adled logic would then conclude my chips are somehow worth less than the guy across from me who read the paper all night and didn't bet anything.
It's people like him, and posters on this board who implicitly support such obviously faulty conclusions, that confirm the stereotype of goldbugs as delirious kooks.
(edit: just noticed, thankfully, that other commenters caught on)
grant,
You are obviously an evil HFT. You are just playing with dollars which Adrian Douglas has proven are worthless, so when you trade your $500 many times a night, it is further proof that the money is worthless. Only gold is worth what it is worth.
All that was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek but adding to the mayhem only seems appropriate.
Adrian Douglas' explanatory logic is so faulty it insults the intelligence of the board (the "bored"?). Worse than deliberately misunderstanding market-making, ignoring calendar trades, he also says that trading volume against current year's supply is the right way to measure trading volume against total supply. What happened to the other few hundred years' worth of gold which was mined before this year? According to AD's analysis, that gold must have no value (too bad if you bought gold before a year ago). Likewise, gold supply coming more than a year from now doesn't exist either. Similar logic might suggest gold mining company stock is only worth one year's production of gold less cost and taxes on profits.
What may be even worse is his conclusion that because the trading volume to annual supply ratio is 45:1, and that M3 divided by the current dollar value of the US Treasury's gold holdings is 43:1, the analysis must be correct. Because my age is not too far off, that must make it even more viable. Because Douglas Adams wrote the Answer to Everything is "42" that makes it even more valid, and the fact that Douglas Adams and Adrian Douglas share the name Douglas, the conclusion is inescapable - i.e. Adrian Douglas is off his rocker.
This is not to say the USD is not overvalued vs all kinds of things, but a far more interesting question for Adrian Douglas to answer would be the following:
In an ideal world of full employment, if the entire world's working population works for one year, does that mean the value of the world's work can be measured in ounces of gold? What happens then when population rises and gold supply falls (the peak gold argument)? Does that mean that one unit of world work is worth less gold? If everything else is denominated in gold, that would suggest that the world should be suffering from massive deflation as working population grows faster than gold supply does. If almost everyone on earth were to suddenly perish from an unknown disease which made them disappear, the total work which should be equal to that year's gold supply would suddenly fall. Would that mean that gold's value should drop? Does this mean that gold bugs' basic argument is that population rises faster than gold supply and all people desire gold equally across people's and time, and therefore gold prices are squeezed higher simply because that's the way it is and any time frame which does not evidence the steady march upward of the price of gold as denominated by population is "proof" of nefarious gold price suppressing cabals.
Yeah... whatever...
I guess you missed the part where the guy you bought the chips from left with all the money a couple of hours ago. A few new guys have come in with more money, and have been buying some more chips to play with, but the value of the chips has been diluted through fraud. This is why you should have been betting with cash instead of using chips.
Of course, you fail to understand that the transactions he is talking about are NET daily transactions, meaning where gold has moved from one person's hands at the begining of the day, into anothers hands at the end of the day. This is equivilent to buying poker chips and at the end of the night, leaving them at the table, and taking them back up the next time you come to play. This multiplies the opportunity for fraud a thousandfold. I mean, Christ, if you want to throw your money in the toilet, more purchasing power for me, but that's just dumb.
I do not understand your explanation, but he does not have it wrong.
The problem with counting bilateral netting is that it is just that. A market with many participants and many trades over the day will mean that one dealer will trade against many dealers during the course of the day, buying and selling. In a futures market, it would be a single net delivery to or from the exchange because all deliveries are identical. In gold, silver, palladium, there are standards, but deals are all OTC. That means when Dealer A buys 5,000 ounces from Dealer B, and Dealer B buys it 10 minutes later from Dealer C, and Dealer C bought his 10 minutes ago from Dealer D, and Dealer D owned his from this morning (having bought from Dealer E), and Dealer E bought at the open from Dealer A, then on a net basis, ZERO gold has actually changed hands. OTOH, the LBMA will report that on a net basis, 25,000 ounces have traded.
In the LBMA there are 60 full members. Last month there were an average of 1740 transactions a day. If we thought that every single one of those transactions was one-way in nature - i.e. no member who bought from one member during the day sold anything to any other member and vice versa, then one could say that the netted number was truly netted. On the other hand, if members had their own customers and some of those customers wanted to buy and some wanted to sell at different times during the day, and other members were willing to buy or sell at different times of day at different prices, then those dealers could trade against each other to hedge their OTC or client transactions. I guess you have to choose whether you think it is a market, or it is a one-way pass-through every single day.
right, your saying that all the people who buy gold futures on margin are actually willing to take delivery of it, a bit far fetched to say the least.
What reason would the same people who purport to set the time value of money by manipulating interest rates not have to suppress gold as the barometer of fiat money pathology? Not that they're doing such a great job. It's a sweat act, through and through.
Getting a little tired of gold being too big to fail. $55,000 gold is dependent on massive devaluation of the dollar (which last I checked has not happened "yet") ... otherwise gold will probably return to the mean, just like everything else.
When Goldman (supposedly) ran oil up to $149/bbl the statistic was that 23 contracts were trading for every physical that existed. And, yes I am opposed to counterfeiting of essentially any kind. But oil returned to the mean after Goldman (supposedly) drove SemGroup (who was hedging the oil in their pipelines) into bankruptcy.
In dollar terms, gold has already appreciated over 300% over the last 10 years or so. Other commodities, including food, land, housing, electronic equipment, electricity, water, tee times and things that people actually need and use have not appreciated by nearly as much. So, it looks to me that there is a dislocation and either the things that people need and use have to increase in price substantially or gold needs to revert to the mean.
As far as I can tell the reason commodities have gone up is because the banks and their beneficiaries have bid up assets with the free dollars given to them by the Fed, artificially inflating commodities in dollar terms. If the liquidity is drained, then commodities revert to the mean. If the Fed pumps in more free bucks then commodities once again go up in dollar terms ... none of which actually helps the economy.