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Guest Post: Social Security, and How the Dictator Pinochet Would Have Fixed the American System
Submitted by Gonzalo Lira
Social Security, and the Chilean AFP System
There’s
been a lot of talk, lately, from the American political classes, about
“reforming” Social Security. About the need for “tough choices”.
This
isn’t surprising. Social Security is a demographic and financial
time-bomb. With something like 60 million Baby Boomers about to begin
retiring, the so-called “Social Security lock-box” is going to take
quite the beating—especially considering that that famed “lock-box” is
stuffed not with money but with IOU’s, placed there by the Treasury as
it used the Social Security money to finance deficit spending.
People
aren’t blind or stupid, even though they do seem to act that way most
of the time. They know that Social Security can’t possibly afford to pay
off what it owes the Baby Boom generation. Politicians of both parties
are making rumbling noises, essentially in two directions: Cutting
benefits, and finding an “alternative system”.
One of those alternative systems some American pundits and politicians have been looking at is the Chilean system of AFP’s—Administradoras de Fondos de Pensiones, literally “Managers of Pension Funds”.
This
system is a workable free market solution to the problem of funding
worker pensions. Unfortunately for this good idea, the system was
imposed by decree by the dictator Augusto Pinochet back in 1980—so right
there, you have some major political hurdles to overcome. Already one
American politician fried herself irredeemably
by merely mentioning the “P”-word: I’m not sure if it was “Pinochet” or
“privatization” of Social Security that did her in—but one or the other
was to blame. The Chilean AFP system is quite simple: All workers—salaried and independent, state and private—are required to have a Cuenta AFP (individual AFP retirement account). Salaried workers are obliged to pay 10% of their earnings to their Cuenta—their account—up to a ceiling of about $250 per month; a worker can contribute more to their Cuenta beyond that $250 ceiling, but that’s voluntary.
The AFP’s—that is, the companies that actually manage these funds—are
all private: Privately run, and privately held. But they are severely
regulated by the State, by way of the Superintendencia de Pensiones.
They are regulated specifically (and obviously) as to which assets and
investment vehicles the AFP’s can allocate the workers’ monies. The
regulatory relationship is rather aggressively adversarial—deliberately
so, as told to me privately by a former head of the AFP’s watchdog
agency, the aformentioned Superintendencia. This official told me that the bureaucracy assumes
that the AFP’s are all trying to actively cheat the workers—a very
healthy regulatory attitude, as it insures that the actual rate of
corruption remains minimal. What’s more—and crucially—a supervisory
bureaucrat can never go work for one of the AFP’s. So the bureaucrat has
no incentive to cut the AFP’s any slack.
The AFP’s manage the money in the workers’ accounts. Once a worker
retires—at the age that the worker chooses—the AFP turns the worker’s
account into a pension. The younger the worker retires, obviously the
smaller the pension. Workers have insurance policies, in case of a
catastrophic injury or permanent disability, which obliges the AFP to
pay the worker the full pension if they are permanently disabled.
Workers cannot take any money out of their accounts before they
retire—but they are free to move their account from one AFP to another.
Hence AFP’s have the incentive to compete for clients. They therefore
compete on two fronts: Higher returns, and lower administrative costs.
Each AFP pursues its own investment strategy with its clients’ money,
though all of these investment strategies are carefully vetted by the
Superintendencia. The AFP’s offer workers different risk levels for
their accounts. State-imposed age limits make older workers ineligible
for riskier
Annual returns adjusted for inflation run from about 3.5% to as high as 20%, during good years and depending on the risk of the
fondo—but there can also be bad years: At the end of 2008, most of the AFP’s experienced losses—in October of ‘08, the high-risk Fondo A were down about 45%, though the moderate risk Fondo B had dropped 14.25%, and the Fondo D (for those who will retire in 5 years) and Fondo E(for those about to retire) dropped by 4% and 0.35% respectively. And
note that this was immediately after the Global Financial Crisis. On
average, the AFP’s deliver about 5% to 8% annual returns, above and
beyond inflation.
The system has been in place since 1980, imposed by the dictator
Augusto Pinochet, and implemented by José Piñera, one of the original Chicago Boys, and the brother of the current president, Sebastián Piñera(who had nothing to do with the policy; the brothers famously despise
one another, BTW, though publicly they act civil—most of the time).
Pinochet left power in 1990, replaced by a Leftist coalition—La Concertación de Partidos por la Democracia—but
in twenty years of power and four different Left and Center-Left
presidents, the Concertación tinkered with the system a bit, but they
never really touched it.
They wouldn’t have dared. There would have been hell to pay if they had—‘cause the AFP system works.
The AFP system not only changed the way people retire—it changed the
Chilean people’s views on capitalism. Simply put, I would argue that
with the AFP system, every Chilean worker became an instant and fervent
capitalist, regardless of their supposed political beliefs.
Historically, Chile was an agricultural country. So the workers on the
fundos—farmsand ranches—received cradle-to-grave care in an informal system that
was similar to a serf system. With industrialization, this sistema patronal was translated from the fields to the factory floor.
However, the pensions promised to the industrial factory workers were
not always paid. Small companies might simply go bankrupt, medium-sized
companies might cheat the workers, and large companies might simply
ignore the workers.
The State was able to create
cajas previsionales—effectivelyretirement savings accounts—but these did not invest in financial
assets: They were strictly savings accounts, and so naturally, inflation
had its way with these monies in due time.
Throughout the XX century, efforts were made to ameliorate the effects
of the transition from an agricultural to an industrial economy, to
little avail. In reaction to this failure, Socialism and Communism arose
to defend workers’ rights, one of which was the right to a fair
pension.
Most people depended on a company pension for their retirement—with all
the uncertainty that that entails. Company pensions also maintained the
patronal or serf mentality. People—workers—felt bound to the company:
They did not feel free to work for a company, then change jobs, since
they would then lose their seniority, which of course would affect their
pensions.
So in a real sense, the XX century Chilean industrial economy was no
different from the XVIII century Chilean rural economy, with regards
workers and their employers—the only real difference was, farm workers
had land, and food, and shelter. Industrial workers had none of that
basic security—just the promise of a pension.
When the Allende regime won the election of 1970, and began imposing its
Maoist-Leninist repressive and terrorist regime—because that’s what it
was, repressive and terrorist, regardless of what its defenders might
pretend—the situation came to a head. The Allende regime deliberately
fomented worker unrest, using the threat of violent worker revolt to
goad the different sectors of Chilean society—not just the oligarchs,
but the military, the landed aristocracy, the foreign and domestic
miners, the civil service, students (college and high-schoolers), etc.
It must be understood
as I have defined fascism and corporatism previously, Chile was a fascist-corporatist country long before Pinochet.Chile—long before the 1973 coup—was a syndicalist-corporatist country of
competing union, social and corporate interests, where the State was
one more competing interest among many.
This situation was what led to the near-civil war in September, 1973.
Allende—in his urge to have the State (and his person) be the ultimate
(“plantation owner”)—essentially set the different interests groups of
the country on a collision course. He radicalized the workers, played on
the middle-class’ sense of economic uncertainty and social
stratification, and tried to bring a crack in Chilean society where he
could implement his Maoist-Leninist Socialist State. (This isn’t
controversial—Allende said so himself in all his speeches.)
In this fascist-corporatist state which was Chile before Pinochet, the
individual citizen was merely a cog within one of the corporate
entitites or another to which he or she belonged—so naturally, the
individual citizen allied himself with one of the competing interests in
Chilean society, be it company or Party or union or class, in
opposition to some other, competing interest from one of the other
sectors of society. In other words, Chilean society was delineated like a
Pinochet—I believe deliberately—changed that. The more I study his
policies, the more convinced I am that that was his conscious goal: To
end the corporatist-syndicalist, competing-interest-group mentality that
stratified and isolated different social groups in Chile, and which
made the country a collection of competing and self-defeating little
cliques, to the detriment of the country as a whole.
Whether I’m right or not on this specific issue is beside the point.
What I can here say unequivocably is that, so far as the AFP system he
forcibly imposed is concerned, it changed Chilean society
forever—without question.
By imposing the AFP system in 1980, workers became free to move from job
to job, and not be bound to any one company because of fear of losing
their pension. Hence it gave the opportunity for real middle-class
mobility. (Though Chile had always had a fairly large middle-class when
compared to the rest of Latin America, it was stagnant, and bitterly
divided by issues of social class: The inordinate social stratification
of Chilean society makes the British class system look positively
egalitarian in comparison. And much of this social-class bitterness
expressed itself politically—with terrible consequences.)
By creating the AFP’s, and making them invest the money of the workers,
the Chilean economy suddenly had a lot more home-grown capital chasing
returns—so there was more local investment in small to medium-sized
firms. Most of the wine and salmon industry in Chile was financed this
way.
By freeing companies from the obligation of pensions—from the very idea
of pensions—companies could behave like companies, and not like pension
funds—or worse, like
In other words, a company’s financial health of today and tomorrow is
not affected by unwise but binding promises made twenty or thirty years
ago. Look at GM, loaded with all those promises made to UAW workers—no
Chilean company has such a burden.
It
also shuts out the State from managing money—which is something
devoutly to be wished. A State with excess cash is a State which will spend that
cash—the famed Social Security “lock-box” is a case in point: The money
American citizens have contributed to the system is not parked there,
carefully earning interest. It’s gone—spent
on foolish wars and monstrous health care plans. By keeping this money
away from the State, the AFP system reduces the State’s temptation to
simply throw money at problems, and instead actually solve them.
Finally, a subtle but exceedingly important effect of the AFP system,
which I mentioned before briefly, is that it makes everyone a
capitalist. I actually think it’s the most important of all of the
effects of the system. In Chile, everyone follows their
as closely as the soccer league. Closer, even: You get a statement in
the mail every month, telling you how much you added this month, how
much your nest-egg is now worth, and how much you would receive were you
to retire right now, or continue to add to your Cuenta
until 65. It’s a heady feeling, and it makes Chilean society very
protective of private corporations and companies. Strikes happen, but
far fewer—usually for genuine financial reasons, not for random
political reasons, as used to be the case. And unlike before 1973,
striking workers don’t destroy machinery or other assets. It has become
politically unpopular—not to say anathema—to disrupt the economy for the
sake of making a political statement. People measure work stoppages of
any sort by how much the overall economy lost—because that is now the
measure of how much an individual’s Cuenta
has lost. People actually bitched about the February earthquake in
terms of damage to the economy, and how lucky Chile was that it happened
at the start of a weekend, instead of in the middle of a work-week—I’m
not kidding.
In other words, with the AFP system, every citizen feels he or she has
skin in the game, so far as the overall economy is concerned. This is an
extremely significant effect of the system—I believe the most
significant—as it points the way for other developing nations, and how
they should organize their domestic economic life, in order to achieve
stability and progress under a Capitalist regime.
Now, the AFP system isn’t without flaws. Critics in Chile tend to focus
on two aspects: The dwindling of the AFP’s down to half a dozen
companies, and the possible oligopolistic tendencies that that might
entail; and the lack of “democratic representation” on the boards of
directors of the AFP’s.
Insofar
as the first criticism is concerned, from an original 12 that began in
1980, the number of AFP’s grew to 22 by 1994. Through buy-outs and
consolidations, there are now 6. The largest, Provida, has 43% of the
market as measured by assets-under-management, the second, Habitat, 24%,
the remaining four fractions thereof. But none of the six have acted
oligopolistically, and all are tightly regulated. Indeed, all of their
mergers occurred under Left-leaning regulators. And to top it off,
market share does tend to swing wildly, as customers vote with their
feet—after all, they can move their account to a better, higher yielding
AFP whenever they want. So in my opinion, the first criticism is a
possibility to be prevented, but not a near-term possibility that might
cause concern.
as the first criticism is concerned, from an original 12 that began in
1980, the number of AFP’s grew to 22 by 1994. Through buy-outs and
consolidations, there are now 6. The largest, Provida, has 43% of the
market as measured by assets-under-management, the second, Habitat, 24%,
the remaining four fractions thereof. But none of the six have acted
oligopolistically, and all are tightly regulated. Indeed, all of their
mergers occurred under Left-leaning regulators. And to top it off,
market share does tend to swing wildly, as customers vote with their
feet—after all, they can move their account to a better, higher yielding
AFP whenever they want. So in my opinion, the first criticism is a
possibility to be prevented, but not a near-term possibility that might
cause concern.
The
second “criticism” is really a complaint by Union officials and the
professional Left, who are marginalized from participation in this
virulently Capitalist scheme because of their own views. The same people
and parties who want more “democratic” representation on the boards of
the AFP’s are the same people and parties who regularly call for the end
of the AFP system altogether. Their “criticism” can’t be taken
seriously.
diminish during bad years, such as 2008, whereas in good years, the
AFP’s enormous profits—albeit well-deserved—remain in their coffers. In
other words, I think there ought to be a High-Tide Mark: If the
individual Cuentas
diminish during a bad year, then the AFP ought to go into its back
profits and “top-off” the workers’ accounts. Call it socialism, call it
what-you-will: It doesn’t seem fair to me that the AFP—earning good
money off of managing its customers’ monies, which they are legally
bound to deposit with the AFP’s—should not share the pain when times are
tough. The AFP’s have the privilege of receiving citizens’ monies by
order of the State—they ought to share the pain when things go south.
(This is a similar objection that many people have to hedge funds—and
which is why I'd never buy into one.)
in 1950, the ratio of workers to retirees was 16 to 1. At the time of
his speech, it was 3.3 to 1. And by the time the Baby Boomers retire, he
said it would be 2 to 1. He
said it—George-fucking-dubya-fucking-Bush in a State of the Union
speech. Not exactly Noam Chomsky at a Bennington College coffee klatsch.
money printing) reaches a certain tipping point, nearly-flat Treasury
yields will reverse and skyrocket, as people lose faith in U.S.
sovereign debt, and this will trigger hyperinflation.
second “criticism” is really a complaint by Union officials and the
professional Left, who are marginalized from participation in this
virulently Capitalist scheme because of their own views. The same people
and parties who want more “democratic” representation on the boards of
the AFP’s are the same people and parties who regularly call for the end
of the AFP system altogether. Their “criticism” can’t be taken
seriously.
My own criticism goes in another direction: As a Chilean, I object to the fact that workers’
Cuentasdiminish during bad years, such as 2008, whereas in good years, the
AFP’s enormous profits—albeit well-deserved—remain in their coffers. In
other words, I think there ought to be a High-Tide Mark: If the
individual Cuentas
diminish during a bad year, then the AFP ought to go into its back
profits and “top-off” the workers’ accounts. Call it socialism, call it
what-you-will: It doesn’t seem fair to me that the AFP—earning good
money off of managing its customers’ monies, which they are legally
bound to deposit with the AFP’s—should not share the pain when times are
tough. The AFP’s have the privilege of receiving citizens’ monies by
order of the State—they ought to share the pain when things go south.
(This is a similar objection that many people have to hedge funds—and
which is why I'd never buy into one.)
These criticisms aside, since Pinochet left in 1990, there haven’t been
any serious, structural changes to the basic system. Independent workers
and the poor have been encouraged to join, and a few cosmetic changes
have been implemented—but basically, it’s worked like a charm.
How does this Chilean pension fund system help the U.S.? Well, in a word, it doesn’t.
Chile is a historically poor country—hence Chileans are aware that the
State cannot provide everything. Manipulating the private sector into a
course of action which creates a public good—such as the AFP system,
such as the ISAPRE (health care) system—yet at the same time creates a
profit (and therefore an incentive) for the private sector, is something
that Chileans have gotten into only recently; really since Pinochet
starting in ’73. But boy has it caught on!
The average American citizen, on the other hand, has gone in the
opposite direction. American citizens fully believe that the U.S.
Government can do it all—fight all the wars, pay all the bills, in
short, “do what’s right”, etc. In other words, Americans believe in a
Mommy State—the Great American Teat. It should come as no surprise,
then, how willingly Americans allow their basic civil rights and
liberties to be trampled by the Government—attitudes such as those
exhibited by American politicians and leaders would be cause for outrage
in Chile. But American citizens are as docile as sheep—except when it
comes to what they believe is coming to them.
Every American believes they are owed Social Security. What was once a
stop-gap, temporary measure adopted by Roosevelt at the height of the
Depression, which could be easily financed with 30 workers to every
retiree, is now a monster-spending program—it has gone off the rails.
According to George W. Bush’s
in 1950, the ratio of workers to retirees was 16 to 1. At the time of
his speech, it was 3.3 to 1. And by the time the Baby Boomers retire, he
said it would be 2 to 1. He
said it—George-fucking-dubya-fucking-Bush in a State of the Union
speech. Not exactly Noam Chomsky at a Bennington College coffee klatsch.
The Social Security shortfall is inevitable—but American citizens are
unwilling to sensibly change their pension system. They lack the
political will to do it for themselves, and there is no dictator—such as
Pinochet—to force the country to do it.
Therefore, the outlook is inevitable: Social Security will either be cut, or taxes will rise to pay for it.
I believe shrewd policy makers are hoping that inflation helps the cause and gives Social Security beneficiaries a
de facto haircut. These policy makers—Bernanke, Geitner, Summers—seem to believe that inflation is the only way to stave off The Deficit, which of course includes Social Security. But as I have argued, I do not believe you can have “controlled” inflation—and as I have further argued, once the Fed’s “asset purchases” (id est,money printing) reaches a certain tipping point, nearly-flat Treasury
yields will reverse and skyrocket, as people lose faith in U.S.
sovereign debt, and this will trigger hyperinflation.
If there is hyperinflation—as I believe there will be—then Social
Security recipients would be the first to clamor for an “adjustment”.
Call it the Mother of all
Karl Marx said it best: A democracy will fail when the people realize
that they control the purse strings. In America, in short order, there
will be more retirees—who will be politically better organized—than the
rest of the population. Therefore, taxes will skyrocket, to pay for
these people who didn’t plan for their own retirement. What would be the
effects of way higher taxes in a stagnant economy? You fill in the
blanks.
Social Security should have been privatized back in 1985—now, it’s far too late.
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dictator Bitchez...
There are many who think a dictator (but not socialist fascist) would be good for the country.
I have an idea. The government could force retirement vehicles (safe things like mutual funds and pensions) to invest in AAA rated securities (like mortgage backed securities.)
That way the pensions and mutual funds would make safe investments and nobody could game the system.
Of course. Dictators are good, if they are there to preserve private property and private profits, don't you think?
Absolutely. The right in this country is very confused.
Careful with that strawman, pan. They tend to catch fire quite easily.
Tontine Bitchez!...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine
This is such bullshit propaganda. Chile's oligarchs pillaged their social security by privatizing it and now the folks, who paid into the fund, get near nothing and are starving.
Milton Friedman and his cronies have been pushing for the Pinoche solution since the 1970's. Of course he also pushed for supply-side economics and a whole bunch of other systems that benefit the wealthy.
Didn't Friedman back down from supporting that?
The Chicago Boys were fans of Pinochet.
The Hayekians free market fundamentalists were all fans of that pig, that fuckin murder of teenage girls.
Absolutely correct! There will be blood in the streets before Social Security is touched. The money has been stolen to pay for wars and tax cuts, and I'll be god damned before somebody fucks with my benefits. I've paid, and paid and paid for more than 25 years and I'll say it again, there will be blood in the streets before I let the oligarchs escape.
The money has been stolen to pay for wars and tax cuts...
And lots and lots of other shit too, weiner. Oh, and tax cuts don't have to be "paid for" - what is required is for the fed.gov to - what's the words? - oh yeah - spend less. There's your "payment" for you.
There is a way to END Soc Sec and everyone would be THRILLED. Some of the most profound things in life are simple. We all know that there is no way all of the baby boomers and beyond are going to collect 50 Trillion dollars. Stay with me here.
The Federal Government owns 66% of the land west of the Mississippi. Sell it. All of the assets of the government not related to national defense, sell them or make private companies out of them and sell stock. Raise 1.5 Trillion in the process.
Take that 1.5 Trillion and buy out every-one's Soc Sec. People not yet drawing would get all of their money back plus 5% interest in a lump sum payment. People already drawing would get on average 200K in a lump sum payment.
That would put 1.5 Trillion directly into the economy to create businesses, jobs, and pay off debt.
Ask anyone you know that is already drawing if they would rather keep getting their monthly check or have 200 grand.
After that everyone would have to save on their own. As it should be. Ponzi schemes ALWAYS end bad even when it's the government running it.
Sell it to whom? China? Back to Napoleon? Interesting idea, but I suspect finding people with $1.5trn sitting idle might be tricky.
@regina
Chile has the highest per capita income in South America, so I'm not sure where you get your notion that the people are starving. Maybe you should hop on a plane and vist the place (it's beautiful) instead of reading The Nation and Kos.
Extremely attractive (and inexpensive) hookers, too.
http://heresycorner.blogspot.com/2007/12/pecunia-non-olet.html
Ah, I see you've done your homework, Mr. Turd.
Now yer talkin'!
Contrary to your belief Chile is doing quite well. I think you confuse Chile with the US where the oligarchs pillaged SS and the population is soon to starve.
But good luck to you!
Yes. Chile is not going bad today. But you know, you're talking about a country that was ruled in the last 20 years by the Socialist Party, since the end of Pinochet's dictatorship.
:)
Let me guess. He would have lined all of us up in the Santiago stadium and shot us.
Beat me to it.
Yep, I was waiting for that "coulda woulda shoulda" ending. At this point, letting young people opt out could be great for them, if they were kept in conservative funds that focused on dividends and coupons, and not suckered into on-paper capital gains bubbles. But it would leave the boomers high and dry.
http://keynesianfailure.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/lies-and-the-lying-liars-who-tell-them-a-fair-and-balanced-look-at-this-years-medicare-and-social-security-trust-fund-reports/
Thanks, but this system would not work in the USA. First of all, our "leaders" are socialists and/or fascists, and do not believe in free markets, capital or otherwise. Second, Americans want something for nothing. If all they are going to do is get back what they've put in, plus or minus some real return, then that's a raw deal. Americans want to pay in five and take out five-thousand. Finally, as the author said, it's far too late. At this point it would be like Bernie Madoff, as he's being led out of his apartment building in cuffs, saying "hey, no, my covered call strategy really can work, let me try and earn it all back!..."
chemba,
Pardon me but your full of shit.........but it's your opinion, as you know ALL americans.
"Second, Americans want something for nothing. If all they are going to do is get back what they've put in, plus or minus some real return, then that's a raw deal. Americans want to pay in five and take out five-thousand. "
Most Americans in the SYSTEM, want exactly what was promised.No more, no less............THEY, did not make up the rules, and they did not pillage the coffers.
When you understand (WE/Americans in the system) are the victims, not the cause of the problems, then you might have a leg to stand on, you do not.
IF the system had been left ALONE, their would be trillions in surplus.
When the Pols started dipping, and using it for pork, and hand outs to illegals,and welfare recips, who never put a dime IN, that was the beginning of the end.
If you have $250k in your bank checking account, and I TAKE it from you, what's that called?.
Theft...........what's the difference,except I would not get away with it.
Chemba: You seem to feel that we are all victims of the system:When you understand "(WE/Americans in the system) are the victims, not the cause of the problems, then you might have a leg to stand on, you do not.
IF the system had been left ALONE, their would be trillions in surplus.
When the Pols started dipping, and using it for pork, and hand outs to illegals,and welfare recips, who never put a dime IN, that was the beginning of the end."
I'm sorry, but we still vote for the thugs who rule over us. They, of course, know this, and use our money to bribe us to vote for them. So who is really to blame? We get the "government" of thuggery we deserve, on the whole. This has been the one-note-samba trick that FDR, the original wolf in Santa clothing, initiated, and just about every politician since has emulated. I'm afraid that de Toqueville was quite correct in his estimation of the longevity of American democracy.It was Bubba who brilliantly cleaned out the SSTF, replacing the contents of the "fund" with IOUs. Then announced a budget surplus for the first time in recent history. Of course, the liabilities were covered by IOUs.
Hell, it's taken 15 years for people to even realize how the SS con went down. That windfall made for a lot of political pork ; both parties blew through the whole load. It still wasn't near enough, so they borrowed. Now we're all really fucked. And the central planning members responsible for the initial heist are statesmen and educators.
puckles,
Well LBJ is the MF that opened it to the General Fund..........
Until then,it was HANDS OFF.
THE SOB that brought us the Great Society, and the American Welfare State.
And I didn't vote for his ass, nor his Predecessor, who was likely the last, and only good Dem POTUS we ever had, or will have.
He at least had the testicular fortitude to stand up to the Fed, and it got his ass murdered...........
I think it's a brilliant solution.
The Fed prints an amount of money equal to the Social Security Trust Fund and gives it to Golman Sachs to manage for the American people.
Dow 36,000???
LOL!!!
Dow 360,000!!!!!!!
I've got a solution. Let me opt out (32 years old and have been working since 15). Hell, they can even keep what I put in, just let me keep my money I earn from my labor this point forward and I will figure it all out on my own. As far as the people dependent on this social security fraud, just bring back the troops from Italy, Germany, Japan, the Phillipines, (leave Iraq and Afghanistan to keep the neocons happy) and the money saved from the removed troops should surely fund the amount needed for the ones dependent on it. Nah....that's crazy talk.
"I've got a solution. Let me opt out (32 years old and have been working since 15). Hell, they can even keep what I put in, just let me keep my money I earn from my labor this point forward and I will figure it all out on my own."
You sound like a young nmewn...LOL.
I said the same thing when I was 24yrs. old. I started working at 14. I also said there was no money in there...people looked at me like I had a third eye. Bonds they said...not IOU's, bonds ! If you have ever tried to explain a secured bond versus a debenture bond to a 24yr. old you have no doubt gotten the same look.
I'm 50 now. They will never touch it (Socialized Insecurity) because government would either have to shrink or it would necessitate income taxes going up so drastically it would remove them from power.
The ultimate game of chicken...so it will crash & burn all on it's own long before the official retirement age goes to a 101yrs. old to keep it "ledger solvent". My advise is squirrel away what you can afford and live modestly.
The only other piece of advice I can lend and you must understand to your core one simple fact...they are thieves (from Wall Street to Washington)...never...EVER!!! let the government know how much you have saved (coin or paper) off of their grid system of prying eyes. Whether you decide to send it to relatives here or overseas...put it under your mattress...GPS it under water or bury it in a graveyard.
You can thank me in 18yr's ;-)
Right on. The only thing I own outright they can take from me is a car, I rent, I took almost all my money out of investments and now it's in bullion, cash and guns. I keep a little in the markets to trade but regularly take profits when they appear. They can't take what they don't know about. It's about time to default on everything and squirrel everything else I can. I encourage all to follow!
Read this article, it's ubercool
Time for a New, New Deal?http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article21916.html
How to fix the deficit and how "easy" it could be.
Is this jackass talking about lottery winners as opposed to people who bust their ass in business?
Ass busters suffer from the delusion that they deserve the salaries they get.
Politicians better not touch my Social Security. I paid in for 50 years at 15% self imployed and if they think that now I am going to Retire that they are going to take it away they are mistaken.
Retirees got shafted with Clinton he make the Benifits Taxable and changed the rules so that even if you got the Maximum Quaters for Maximum benifits thoes Quaters had to be within the last 15 years before Retirement to count. So, many are getting smaller benifits because the Maximum Quaters were 15 years before Retirement.
Boomers have gotten the short end of the stick all of their lives. Not enough College openings, temperary class rooms, housing prices increased due to our demand, etc.
Boomers have made tons of money in their productive years and have paid Trillions upon Trillions in Tax Revenues and Social Security, Medicare Taxes. Now they want to take it away.
I DO NOT THINK SO. Remember we were the ones that protested against the Vietnam War. And if the Government thinks that we will not take to the Streets again I think they have another thing comming.
Walkers and pitchforks. Bring it on baby...boomers. Get angry as someone should.
Dr.
Walkers & Pitchforks?.
Sir you are WAY off the mark.( do not assume because their past 55 they are not way more able than you think).
Long suffering yes,but their is a limit to their patientence.
You need to remember, millions of the Boomers, are ex military,LE,and marksmen,lifetime shooters, outdoors people, most did not ALL grow up in NEW YAWK,or KALI.
And a LOT are in great shape,and hit the ranges regularly,and are not in the victim class.( IOW they will FU up so fast your head will spin).
Some still drive,actually!!
It will come to a head........
If your in that camp,when you have nada to lose, you lose it.
DosZap you forgot the main thing:
most of them don't take shit from anyone.
still,
You got it, the old adage of picking a fight with an old man...........is the truth.He will kill your ass.
For a good part of the Cold War the federal government used to actually subsidize ammo and encourage marksmanship. Lots and lots of high schools had riflery teams...
"Your" Social Security does not exist!
Don't worry though, as Greenspin himself has said, any government obligation can be funded, but that they cannot guarantee its purchasing power.
Long story short, you'll get your "check." And if you're lucky, it may have enough value to exchange for your favorite flavor of pet food.
See, the time for you to "be in the street" was 50 years ago, when this ponzi scheme was stealing dollars from you with far more value than the ones they pay out today.
So why aren't those of us who are still having a portion of our productive labor stolen to fund what has already been spent in the streets? I've been trying to opt-out of this farce, but I can't seem to find the loophole.
How about because we don't know what to do?
I'm getting hit from both sides, social security that's already stolen and a state pension that will inevitable be stolen to balance a budget between now and 2045. What do I do? Stop going to work? Stop paying my bills? Do you think they care at all if the peasants starve themselves in a gutter?
Forgive me, but the only feasible way for anyone to rebel on their own is to just live as privately as possible.
My Social Security DOES EXIST it is just in the form of an IOU from the FED. They just do not want pay up on THEIR debt to the Seniors.
They gave Trillions in Bailouts to the Banks which created a huge Deficit. Now they want the Boomers about to Retire to pay for the bailout to the Banks. They better think again.
"Your" Social Security does not exist!
You are SO WRONG!!! Why? Because Al Gore told me that it DOES exist! When? During the 2000 Presidential election!
How do I know that Al Gore didn't lie to me? Because no one in the mainstream media said that this wasn't true. That the "lockbox" REALLY exists!
You LIE, LIE, LIE!!!
"Boomers have gotten the short end of the stick all of their lives"
Are you f@$#ing kidding me?!?!?!? 'Boomers' are the main reason we're in this mess in the first place. I used to work for a boomer that would constantly say my generation [younger] is the entitlement generation because we expect everything to be handed to us. All this while I worked 80 hours/wk and he took two days off from playing golf to make an appearance in the office. At least we ask for what we want...
News flash - boomers are the ones that essentially stole the future from this country by enacting policies to loosen credit so they could get rich off the false productivity and profits without a care for the long-term consequences.
Boomers as victims?!?!?!? You have to be kidding me...
No shit. The Boomers are the most coddled and self-centered generation ever in the history of man. The worst are the ones who believe they had it hard (because their parents really did have it hard with the Depression and all) and beleive they have the made the US the most powerful nation in history (again while it was actually the previous generation).
Jefferson,
You sure are painting with a broad brush are you not?.
Most of these hot headed replies I am figuring are coming from the younger selfish little dicks, that do not want to DO WHAT the Boomers did....
PAY, the man...tough shit, they did, you will.
Hot headed? Perhaps. But the Boomers paid the man alright, with a credit card. And now they coast into retirement who pays the fucking bill? MY GENERATION. Not only will we not have the standard of living our parents had, but the poor saps coming out of college today (thank god I'm not that young) are really gonna get the shaft. After the Depression there was a whole generation that never regained the standard of living they had before. This time there will be a generation who will never achieve the prior standard of living in the first place.
And as far as a broad brush, I'm not saying they all did it out of greed or even stupidity. My parents are good people. But they were to spoiled and self centered to really care what the hell was happening around them.
Jeff, slow down. We're not all that bad. I paid off my last mortgage in 1987. I've owned 3 homes since, put 3 kids through college (the last is leaving tomorrow, and fully paid for), and paid off an ex to boot. NO F'IN DEBT WHATSOEVER since '87. Have a little more respect. I use credit cards to earn money back, only. And I've paid taxes through the proverbial schnozz since I began working, both here and in Europe.
Great post. Boomers AND the "greatest generation" prior both drove this country off a cliff by electing socialist ponzi peddlers on the right and the left.
And now Gen X & Y are going to suffer as a result of unsustainable consumption. Yet they have the audacity to call us spoiled! People my age are struggling to find work while boomers are busy adding to the national debt just so they can feel good about the price of their vacation homes.
Spyker,
Envy kills...............if someone can afford a second vaction home, is that because it was free?.Uh, no, they piad for it.............after working a lifetime.
Clue, I never voted for one Socialist SOB..............never have never will.
Been around a long time son, and newsflash, I worked for all I have........
Sorry the uneducated, welfare slugs & freeloading illegal SOB's have screwed it all up, for ME, and mine, as well as you.
But,all I can control is ME.
And, you have NO right to criticize the Greatest Generation period........
If it were not for them, your ass would not be here, or you would be speaking German, or Japanese.
Jefferson,
Again, BROAD BRUSH...............credit card?.
My Ass,that's the Gen X, and Y's,(most of them, I won't completely broad brush em' all, because I know a lot are responsible).
Ok, you can cheap shot your parents, and maybe they deserve it..that's them,and your business.
But,what Generation do you think HAS/HAD the most millionaires in it?.The Boomers,they did not get it with credit, and sitting on their ass.
We put in the time, worked our ass's off, kissed a lot of ass, and saved.........
I'm a Boomer, I have not paid for anything w/ a CC in 30yrs unless it was paid IN FULL when it hits the door.If I want it, it's paid for when the bill hits the mailbox, or I do not get it). Cars, or houses...........same there.
I use an ATM card,, pay with cash for everything else,I write paper checks to pay bills.
When your forking over Green, it makes you think.
Plastic for most is disaster.
With me, it''s about Priniciple and honor.
I do not like getting lumped in with a lot of deadbeats.(or people who have had problems they have no control of).
What age groups you think are walking the mortgages on these new fine homes, and can AFFORD them, yet refuse to stand tall?,credit cards chrged to the max, damn sure bet you most are not Boomers.
Sorry, you are on drugs and here is why.
Boomers, by forcing everyone to go into massive debt for a college degree just to get a job, created rising tuition costs and a massive debt that hangs around the neck of most of the country's youth for decade or more after graduation. Boomers, by enacting busybody requirements at every level of business and government have saddled us with a ton of fixed costs. Boomers raised the SS withholding rates, stifling our ability to save for retirement outside of the Ponzi, and squandered the money on their share of expensive wars they couldn't be bothered to win but continue to drag out. Boomers, after making labor so expensive and laws so overbearing, decided in their massive greed and total ineptitude to outsource everything not nailed down to China and India all while wailing about worsening unemployment, lazy kids, lousy products, and our loss of leadership in the world.
Seriously, take your entitled-snorting, golf-playing, day-trading, money-shuffling, finger-pointing, crybaby attitude and get bent.
Not to mention that when boomers were growing up:
schools worked.
government worked (as well as it ever can).
they got to have all the fun with the sex, drugs and good music... then punished anyone who came after them who did the same things (x'ers are the most incarcerated generation in the history of the United States; put there for the most part, by boomers).
and because they were stupid enough to put all their money in paper promises for future payment and (surprise) lost it all, they expect the productivity of countless numbers of future generations to sustain them in their old age?
but you know, if you ask, most criminals will tell you they are victims, too.
The boomers will get their just desserts in old age. Enjoy your socialized healthcare! I'm leaving the country because I refuse to pay for their entitlements.
Bye! Don't let the screen door hit ya in the ass on the way out.
I did a serious doubletake at that "boomers are victims" idiocy too.
Stand on the shoulders of your Depression/WW2 parents, outsource every American industry not nailed down, retire to 20 years of social security paid for by the kids you've screwed with a dead-end economy, mountains of debt, and a collapsing currency and NOW YOU WANT TO CRY VICTIM AND POINT FINGERS?
Get bent.
My 60 year old father very seriously claims if his SS $ is not there for him he'll be on the streets with his guns...the target...any politician he can find. (FYI - he's a pretty mainstream guy for the most part)
If he follows through, he'll be your Dad and my hero... As long as he hits Senators, Congressman, Bankers, CEOs or lobbyists. No innocents please...
I've always thought it would be cool to have a sort of 'Hitman Ebay'.
It would work as such: People would propose politicians to kill. Then, people could Paypal money for the politician they want someone to assisinate. Whoever goes out and kills the politician would get the money. Similar to voting, but with consquenses. If the politicians had to worry more about the consequences of their actions, I think they wouldn't screw the electorate as much. Plus, it would create a de facto 'term limit'.
I wonder how much money would be offered for Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Charlie Rangel or the rest of the scum in DC?
Are you not the generation that spent this country in it's current debt??
I am 40 years old, and I have known since high school that Social Security is a Ponzi and I woulld be the generation of the "Last Greater Fool."
[ Bubbles are often said to be based on the "greater fool" theory. ]
Is it not your (...and my) generation that got the benefit of the government expansion of spending? Really think about it and tell me how you have NEVER benefited from this country living outside its means. I have had the unfortunate realization that I sucked at the government tit even though I am a private small businessman.
I really don't like people who spend their paychecks (and retirement funds) early and then whine about it. Social Security was spent by politicians voted in by your and my generation and we lived way beyond our means.
Get over it.
sorry Waterfallsparkles...
they already spent it.
what don't you grasp about that concept?
What if your Company already spent your Pension Benifits. Would that be OK? NO!!! What makes Social Security and Medicare any different from a private Pension. NOTHING. Money paid in Money due out in Benifits.
Biggest problem in my opinion is that they allowed people that never worked to receive benifits. Illegals, Welfare Moms, the Children of Welfare Moms.
Many of the people on Welfare never paid a dime into the system. For every child they have they get over $400. per month. Then they want to cut my benifits when I paid in for 50 years. NO NO NO.
What makes Social Security and Medicare any different from a private Pension?
A private pension has defined benefits that are payable by name to you - the beneficiary.
Social Security and Medicare are taxes (ponzi schemes to be more precise), the future benefits to be paid out are nothing more than political promises that can be rescinded/ammended by Congress at any time.
It's been that way since, well, about 1935, actually.
Sucks, but there it is.
Seems like the system heavily depends on these Chilean regulators who, it is claimed, are very honest and have « a very healthy regulatory attitude » ...
Good luck finding those in the USA, or most countries.
The problem with proposing to fix the system is that too many pols don't have the stomach for all the truth-telling that must take place. For starters, the Congress has been looting the SS "trust fund" to reduce the current budget deficit. Any hint of reform triggers paralysis because of the Gordian knot of how to pay for that theft.
I would say that it took us several generations to get into this mess, it may take even more to get out of it. First, property rights must be recognized, second, it must be transformed over time from a debt-based system to an asset-based one, third any government instruments used to recognize the government debt related to this fund should be free to trade on an open market so a price can be established.
Just as important: it is time we had a public discussion about what society owes to the poor. Specifically, who is "poor" and justly deserves our help and who is not and should be expected to carry their own weight. We have piled on all manner of programs and in-kind aid, so that the largest single group of obese people in the US are the "poor" and their "at risk" children. We no longer have the luxury to carry anyone who just doesn't want to work.
Here's a definition:
You are truly poor if:
1) You do not have cable, internet, cell phone
2) Your roof leaks
3) Air conditioning is an open window
4) Your best transportation is a bicycle
5) Health care? Pension? Substitute a real life knowledge of childhood mortality and your future consists of a hope that you can buy tomorrow's bread
Short version: 99% of Americans live better than any "King" who died before 1940. Air conditioning, long lifespan, choice of food, indoor plumbing, health care, protection from nature's worse weather...look it up.
..or travel to the third world and leave the tourist area.
All well and good, if there are productive investment opportunities and not just a bunch of speculative bubbles. The downside of all this "liquidity" the financial system has been so helpfully providing is that it has drowned out any and all viable investment opportunities and the most anyone can do now is to guess where the next bubble will blow up. Capitalism has drowned in capital.
Not so sure I like the earthquake anecdote, doesn't sound any different than shortsighted CEO's who only care about the stock price RIGHT NOW. Eventually an issue will come up when these hypercapitalist Chileans have to vote on a course of action and they will vote the wrong way just because it is perceived to help their AFP balance.
And how long before the regulatory regime is bought off and co-opted by industry?Nothing stopped that from happening in the US, how is Chile different.
Still I like the fact that they are free to move their money, the current 401k setup is a scam. I should have every right to move my money where I want it. At a minimum the 401k should be a low cost brokerage account.
The fundamental problem with Social Security is that it is the underpinning of the fallacious notion that "Government" will take care of you.
I ask any adult, do you really imagine any other adult (beyond one's family and friends) has any real interest in "taking care of" you, or anyone else?
The sooner it dawns on the populace at large that ever expanding government power, "programs" and regulation doesn't translate into much, if any, "care" of more than a relatively few individuals at a time, the sooner this country will "heal".
While I'd be the first person to agree that the financial industry is "rapacious" does anyone not note that regulators such as the SEC rarely intervene until virtually all the damage has been done (to either individuals or the industry). Wouldn't we be better off telling people the truth? That no goverment agency can reasonably "protect" them from fraud? Wouldn't people then take their investment and financial affair more seriously? Wouldn't then each, legitimate, investment and financial entity have to strive to PROVE their solvency and integrity continously?
If the access to and the depth of the knowledge base today were as limited as it was in 1930, yeah, I'd likely agree more regulation was possibly more productive than less. But today, is there any excuse for any reasonable adult to not do a fair amount of research on virtually any important financial subject before they make any decisions?
The longer society embraces the idea that constently enfeebling ever more people by dint of some "guarantee" of protection or sustenance by some faceless bureaucrat the weaker all of society will become. Its ironic that a Chile of all places gives power and control of "social security" in the hands of individuals. Trusting the people, what a novel idea.
jag,
"The fundamental problem with Social Security is that it is the underpinning of the fallacious notion that "Government" will take care of you."
Your logic is FLAWED........Social Security was not a GIFT.Medicare was not a GIFT, Medicaid is a GIFT(for the Poor).
When you PAY into a program your entire working life, (forcibly), and then expect a ROI whenyou HIT the age THEY set, where the hell do you get off saying the Gv't is taking care of you?.
It's YOUR Fkin Money.
A GIFT, is Free................if you paid for IT, it's not a GIFT, and it's damn sure not FREE.
Do you go into the Grocery store, and fill your cart, and wheel it out, without PAYING?.
Maybe once.............
Used to be a music group called "SIMPLE MINDS"................sometimes I wonder where the hell you peoples logic comes from.
Dos Zap, I agree it is in fact a Contract with the Boomers and the Government and now the Governmet wants to renig on their end of the Contract. The Government told us that if we paid into the System we would receive benifits.
By them calling it an entitilement is like saying that they are giving it to us for free. We paid into the system for 50+ years an now they want to act like it is a Government Gift. It is not.
I agree that the people that got Welfare or Child Support without ever paying into the system got a gift. Yes, that is the problem that needs to be addressed. Yet, the Government will never address the Welfare or Child Support program because they are the Voters that get them Elected.
Boomers have paid for the expansion of the economy, the expansion of the Government thru our Trillions of Tax Dollars and now they want to turn their backs on us. They took our Money and now do not want to pay it back.
Shame on them.
Dos Zap, I agree it is in fact a Contract with the Boomers and the Government and now the Governmet wants to renig on their end of the Contract. The Government told us that if we paid into the System we would receive benifits.
By them calling it an entitilement is like saying that they are giving it to us for free. We paid into the system for 50+ years an now they want to act like it is a Government Gift. It is not.
I agree that the people that got Welfare or Child Support without ever paying into the system got a gift. Yes, that is the problem that needs to be addressed. Yet, the Government will never address the Welfare or Child Support program because they are the Voters that get them Elected.
Boomers have paid for the expansion of the economy, the expansion of the Government thru our Trillions of Tax Dollars and now they want to turn their backs on us. They took our Money and now do not want to pay it back.
Shame on them.
"When you PAY into a program your entire working life, (forcibly), and then expect a ROI whenyou HIT the age THEY set, where the hell do you get off saying the Gv't is taking care of you?."
"It's YOUR Fkin Money."
This is what the last greater fool will say as a Ponzi scheme unravels. Just because you were promised a return doesn't mean you will get it. The promise is as good as the one who gave you the promise. Madoff, USA government.. all the same.
O.K., maybe not the same in that you had a gun to your head (jail, fines threatened) when you were forced to pay into social security. All that shows is that our government is more morally corrupt than Madoff. Surprise.
Boomers were the last generation to grow up shooting real guns on a regular basis. We got injured, spanked and yelled at on a regular basis. We played war and a host of dangerous games. Sometimes there could be a death.
Those skills along with all the others have been honed over the years.
The later generations can say what arrogant, blame laying whining they care to. Truth is, these old gals and guys have a quite few hard bites left in them.
Make friends and it will work out much more favorably for all.
Tell that to the 19 year olds in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"And then you told me how much you had to suffer, is that really all you had to offer?"
Was there a draft? I am fairly sure they went voluntarily. Here is a story for you.
When I was 18 years old I decided I wanted to join the Marines since I come from a family unable to pay for my college education. I scored so high on my ASVABs I was told I could have any jobs I wished and was intending on going in Military intelligence, complete college while enlisted and eventually apply to the U.S. Marshals or C.I.A.
The day I was supposed to be sworn in I was told by my recruiter numerously, "Say no to everything the doctors ask you..anything they ask you". So 3/4 of the way at MEPS through my physical exam the doctor looked at my back and though I had scoliosis. Of course I did not but while being questions I was asked all sorts of questions. One question was do I ever have headaches. Believing this to be a fairly harmless question I said, "well as a matter of fact I am diagnosed with cluster headaches" which is the rarest form of headache. I could not be sworn in and needed to get my medical records to prove to them this was not an affliction which could lead to "suicide" sounds nuts but regardless I was not able to swear in that day. So after being yelled at by Marine recruiters for not lying about everything asked of me I went and got my medical records which showed I had mild asthma for a year when I was about 4. I had grown out of it and am as fit as could be but then I was told I needed a waiver for childhood asthma.
I took that as my sign not to enlist. 9/11 occured 2 years later and at first I was upset I had not gone through the hassle and today I still consider it the best choice I never made because I could not comprehend reaching this point in my life and realizing I was fighting for the complete opposite of everything I thought this nation stands for. And then I get pissed thinking about how these young kids and friends were duped into fighting while we allow such criminal corporate activity to occur on our own soil.
If you do not know who Smedley Butler is well he was the most decorated Marine in military history and the corporate Wall Street interests intended on pulling off a military coup and installing him as a figure head to take control from FDR with a dictatorship. He went forward with the plot and it vanished but he had this to say regarding his time in the service.
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested."
- Smedley Butler
Do we see any parallels? These kids much, like I almost was, are being used as pawns. These troops ae being mislead and that is criminal. They should be home instead of being used as an excuse to expend money for the interst of the elites.
John McCloy you have a gift sir, when you post I assume you are in your 40's-50's, I would never have guessed you were around 30. That's not an insult there is just a lot of maturity in the things you say.
+1 on that.
We're near the same age.
Cousin was first unit sent into Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo. His standing orders were to protect a town and surrounding district where 80%+ of the hard currency in circulation came from drug, munitions and sex slave traders. Where German intelligence were running the money laundering operations for the heroin smugglers. Where US contractors were consorting with sex slaves within sight of the office windows of Central Command.
Our grandparents bribed me to not enlist...
I would have been somewhere within +-3 months of end of tour on 9/11.
Exactly. Just look at Dyncorp. You think you would find this anywhere on the United States MSM because they are owned.You will find it in the foreign press:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/13/iraq17
And one the website run by the guy I used to think was fucking crazy Alex Jones but not so much in the past year.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2006/010106sexslavescandal.htm
My point was that there was nothing hard about the Boomers upbringing that other generations haven't had. They had 'Nam, we have Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of them grew up shooting guns, some of us grew up shooting guns. Big woop.
As far as whether today's soldier volunteered of not, I don't think that has any bearing on what they have to endure over there. I don't need the story of Smedley to know which way the wind blows. You think you got lucky for not getting accepted? Think of all those poors saps that went over their all gung ho (like you were) and watched their friends and civilians torn apart into meat chunks, knowing deep down we're over there for bullshit politicians. So many whip themselves into a patriotic frenzy so they don't have to admit for one second that their friends died for a goddamn politician. THAT would suck my friend.
But I'm not going to go on. THEY would like nothing better than another division between the people. If sex don't work, or race don't work, hey why not age?
Well Vietnam was an unneccesary war and the result of a false incident with the Gulf of Tonkin that was later admitted by seceretay McNamara never to have occurred so it must be a terrible feeling to know the horrors these soldiers and their families were forced to endure predicated on events that never occured. Factor in the atrocities the Vietnamese endured and we once again see that a large number of corporations (Bell Helicopter and other military contractors) profiteered of this while sitting in their ivory towers.
Compounding this is that people my fathers age were drafted into this war. These men then come home and are shouted down and disrespected by cowards who never had to be forcibly sent to their deaths or near deaths. I am simply trying to say I could never comprehend what some of these veterans feel upon learning how they were used to secure resources, poltical influence and then return having potentially been away while first loves remarried and parents died knowing they cannot reclaim that lost time.
Most tragically is that when the time comes to face a true enemy of freedom if we as a nation survive that long the people will be divided and question the actual motive. After al we have witnessed I am now convinced beyond a doubt that President Kennedy was killed because he would not go to war in Cuba and was wealthy enough not to rely upon corporate funding for election. Although a flawed man he was the last true autonmous President we had and if the elites have the power to remove an elected official, our own President of the United States, than we have come along ways from 1776. Human nature never changes and the battle for freedom is here once again. The elites have used gradualism to erode powers to make sure the deck is as stacked as possible against us. They will divide like you say with anything..What is more clear cut than Red/Blue and Black and White.
The only division I care about is good and inherent evil. Evil will always exist. I am grateful for sites like ZeroHedge because it tells us all we are not alone. Some choose to use their intelligence to enslave and exploit and others want to use to for charity and the betterment of all citizens.
If I die for a cause I want to know that what I am opposing is pure evil. I think of every single soul who has died to give us the freedom we have in this country and how frightened they were when they died, the pain they experienced if they were tortured and alone dying from a horrible wound, if they were tortured and how sad they were while dying thinking of all they would miss. I think of how their families and wives or children would spend years crying at night missing them and although they may be a statistic in a log somehwere they are a singular life and a child that someone spent years raising.
They never die in vain in my opinion and I do not want these people to have died only to allow their enemy to come from within while their enemies enjoyed and operated under the liberties their blood provided only to usurp what they fought for and enslave their ancestors as a reward. This battle monumentally more difficult to win than during the Revolution. Times were simpler than and their were less distractions. People appreciated the liberties they sought or had freshly acquired. Now we have been lulled into a media created matrix.
I cannot even believe the shit I am saying right now in relation to my country. They are slowly removing every liberty. The next step will be an attack on independent Internet sites such as ZeroHedge because the web poses a very severe danger for their plans because there is only one version of the truth.
Well said!
Jefferson,
Same,same...........You old enough to remember Vietnam?.
All a waste...........but then your off your topic again, right?.,
Bring them to me and I'll be happy to oblige!
Oh, give losing that chip a try while you are at it
As Celente says, when a person loses everything, they lose it. The boomers are never going to see any of that money and the young are going to be mostly unemployed in dead end jobs. That's what collapse caused by looting and fraud does.
An excellent article. It certainly could work here, once people realize SS is over.
Great .. Great ... "every Chilean worker became an instant and fervent capitalist". Resulting is a economic revival that has made Chile the greatest success story in South American (along with Brazil).
as opposed to the US where at least 50% of us are becoming dole sucking fervent socialists. Resulting is an ever gowning collapse of the American dream.
Congressman's pension nor Federal Workers are NOT part of the SS system. They have exempted themselves from it while raiding it. Nice huh?
What I don't understand about this attack on grey people in the west is this - before the collapse younger workers were chiefly employed in the service industry - these generally may have made your life more tolerable (except for bankers of course) but they did not add any core wealth to society.
Therefore a very tiny percentage was responsible for core wealth - these were scientists,medical professionals , farmers ,engineers, industrial workers etc.
Surely before you go attacking the little old lady down the street you get the not so bright but decent burger flipping youth out of the fast food joint and into a factory.
People can make their own food and look after their elderly - simple.
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In Holland you get basispension from the state and extra pension from what
you saved when working at a companie. The fund is separated from the companie,
but the problem is the fund is not separated from the wold.Low returnes on fixed
income and lousy stockmarket is started impacting them.What if stockmarkets
and bondmarkets crashes both?
I save my pension of last resort in gold and silver
no promise,no ones liability.
Various economic policy think tanks have been advocating the US adoption of the Chilean model since before the dotcom bubble.
Back in 1994 it was at least theoretically possible to have prepared the boomer generation for the transition period.
By the time AlGore was doing his "lawwwhhckbawwwhx" stump speech in 1999, it was already getting near the point of absurdity due to the dotcom bubble popping and the ridiculous actuarial estimates for pension fund returns (gov employees, state gov employees, SS, etc)
Instead, the political kleptocracy selfdeluded themselves into the D'Souza belief that workers in INdia would subsidize the lifestyles of AMerican and Western baby boomers through an ever increasing bubble in stocks and bonds as the developing world work force bought out the investment portfolios of the 1st world. He also believed that the portfolios of western boomers would increase their sales to developing world to sustain demand. The Dinesh D'Souza delusion.
D'Souza has provided some valuable insight on wage normalization between the US and India... 7 years ago he was promoting the idea that USW and Indian call center workers would sooner than later have equalized wage scales. He was not that far off in the prediction, the S&P 500 has 47% of revenues from foreign sales in the 1H of 2010...
However, when he made predictions about Americans' bubble equity and debt portfolios maintaining bubble values as greater fool Indian investors joined the casino.... he got that one wrong.
Someone once pointed out that CHile has an easier time diversifying risk in their pension system since the economy of Chile is relatively small.
American politicians and appointed and career bureaucrats long ago made the calculation to kick the can past their retirement from public office or public employment. We can see this happen once again today as the SEC kicked the can down the road for the illegal actions of the New Jersey State pension funds.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/19/business/19muni.html?_r=1
Pension Fraud by New Jersey Is Cited by S.E.C.
By MARY WILLIAMS WALSH
Federal regulators accused the State of New Jersey of securities fraud on Wednesday for claiming it had been properly funding public workers’ pensions when it was not.
The Securities and Exchange Commission said the action was its first ever against a state, and only its second against any government over the handling of a public pension fund. The first was the city of San Diego. More may be in store; the agency announced in January that it had a special unit looking into public pension disclosures. The S.E.C. has been trying to assume more authority over municipal securities.
The commission settled its suit with New Jersey by issuing a cease-and-desist order, which the state accepted without admitting or denying the findings. No penalties were imposed.
Nor did the S.E.C.’s order name any individual state officials, nor the bond underwriters and other professionals whose job it was to vouch for the state’s financial statements. New Jersey’s largest bond underwriters during the period in question include Citigroup, J. P. Morgan Securities, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs and Barclays Capital.
The S.E.C. said its action was meant to dissuade other governments and their advisers from hiding bad fiscal news in a fog of pension numbers. Actuaries, for instance, have been raising questions about the framework Illinois has laid out for bolstering its pension funds. In New York, California and other places, financial advisers have told lawmakers that benefits could be sweetened at virtually no cost, only to be proved wrong once those benefits were adopted.
Just boils down to the fact that the Bankers took the Nations Wealth thru their Bail Outs. Paid themselves the Billions that they got from the Government and now want someone else to pay for it. Seniors have the biggest pot of money because they have paid Trillions into Social Security and medicare and now the Banks are after that pot of Money. Talk about a Welfare Society for Bankers.
SS will go bust, benefits will be cut and it will be "means and age tested" so if you are under 75 and have more than $25,000 in assets of any kind, no SS for you.
But the solution is simple. Remove the income cap on SS contributions and make allindividual income (including cap gains) subject to SS tax and do it retroactively for the last ten years for those individuals who are either subject to AMT or have AGI over 250K of which more than 50% is capital gains.
This should snare all the worthless F500 Multinational CEO's and all of the elected politicians as well.
It's either that or ...one lampost, one politician, one tree limb, one bankster, one impalement stake, one Fortune 500 CEO.
"It's either that or ...one lampost, one politician, one tree limb, one bankster, one impalement stake, one Fortune 500 CEO."
But what of the ideaology that led to this cataclysmic fantasy, socialism? There should be a stout tree for it I would think ;-)
LS,
And, so here we are again,,,,,your likely close to correct.
BUT.
"SS will go bust, benefits will be cut and it will be "means and age tested" so if you are under 75 and have more than $25,000 in assets of any kind, no SS for you."
Why should one be means tested, if THEY paid, they recieve..........if not, then write em a check for their contributions.(it's their money, they are penalized for saving?).
Is that like living in a $350k/$500k house for free?, on Unca Sugar(really you and me NOW?).
WHY?.....where's the justice there?.
They worked hard, long hours, and made good, and saved in addition to the knowledge they would get SS/MC............so, they planned their retirements around those figures.
Since they were WISE,ant's, not grasshoppers, and saved (in addition to anticipation of SS), that means they get screwed?.
$25k won't get you shit,NOW.
How long is a couple retired, get to live on $25k?
A year?...........So, they go back to Mickey D's, and work till they drop,( IF there's an opening?), and /or are euthanized by the commie fkrs running D.C.?.
Screw that..paybacks a bitch...........
How do you get rid of an infection?,you go to the source of the infection,and attack it there.
Yes. That's exactly what I mean.
Most of us ants have saved throughout our long careers and paid into SS along the way.
After retiring from USN as career enlisted I have worked (and continued to work) and pay into SS every step of the way.
I realize because you Grasshoppers sold the country to China and the Multinationals that your "promises" to pay me my earned SS aren't worth the paper they're written on, that I should "excuse" you - after all, you worked on Wall Street, you earned Ivy League creds and are therefore my "betters".....
I am to be "faulted" for making bad life choices by serving 22 years in the Navy and working in a "middle management" capacity thereafter .... how silly of me.
But no matter - we'll talk that over at leisure after you are sentenced to undergo "Popular Justice" and you are put in the guillotine in "Skyview" mode..
And that will be after you have had the distinct pleasure of seeing your wife and children dispatched in any one of a number of painful and imaginative ways...
Don't you remember? We've set the clock back...to 1789.
And you and your families are playing the parts of the French Nobility...
Your lampost idea is good. Many have chosen not to run again. They see what's ahead and are quitting before we order the rope, from China.
Your lampost idea is good. Many have chosen not to run again. They see what's ahead and are quitting before we order the rope, from China.
Cleansing the Pinochet regime via the pension system?
Just one more example of the total compatibility between "free market" fundamentalist ideology and a bloodthirsty dictator, responsible for the rape and murder of 16-year-old school girls.
Just one more example of the total compatibility between totalitarism and "free market" fundamentalism.
Mr. Gonzalo Lira only forgets to tell you about all that Chilean and Argentinian private pension funds wich have gone bankrupt, leaving thousands of seniors in dispair.
My my, a rather broad brush there, eh?
Care to try to give us another "example"?
Keep the fruits of your labor close to yourself or someone will steel it.
Invest most of your money not in the system but in yourself,your familly,
your community(local shops)........................................................
All of life is a fucking quasi-ponzi scheme. We make bets on what we earn an expect to earn. Using credit is as old a civilization. Its leverage until your income drops.
SS has plenty of money to pay benefits well into 2040 and many actuaries say, with population growth, there is no crises in funding. The only crises is in the choices to balance the budget. Raise taxes on wealthy individuals and corporations, cut the military budget, or steal (default on IOU's) more from SS.
Non-renewable, limited term contracts for all federal workers.
Karl Marx said it best: A democracy will fail when the people realize that they control the purse strings.
Bullshit. They'll vote themselves goodies until they run out of other peoples' money. Are we not more than half-way there already?
The Chilean plan seems dependent on real regulations, with real enforcement. When have we ever had that in this country, ever?
The US version would fail. Created by, run by, pillaged and regulated by the same chosen that brought you this depression.... if the corruption gets exposed, the appeals to the Scotus will be denied by the cabal members there... 3 of 9. Go ahead, deny it and junk this post.
Thanks so much for the post and the food for thought.
Something to ponder, something to ponder. But I do agree its to late, because when the hammer comes down we will have Germany style hyperinflation to be blunt.
First the hedge funds were arbing the shit out of the mutuals. Now the HFTs are arbing the shit out of the HFs. Its all a mute point that SS should have been privatized. Most would have seen there funds arbed away. What we are looking at is pretty much anyone younger than 50 getting completely screwed. Is is just a 7%+ dumb tax (regressive as it just applies to the first 100 something but that figure keeps moving up rapido) - as some one said, just a suitcase of IOUs just like Lloyd and Harry in Dumb and Dumber...
When is the sequel to the video game "Soldier of Fortune" coming out?
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Umm, is it worth pointing out that an Australian labour government did pretty much the same thing and proving it is not confined to right wing wing nuts to sort out pension systems.
What you need is a man with balls or a Congress with balls. You have neither.
Again, letting the young people out of Social Security could be good for them, if they weren't suckered into corrupt scams, but it would only make our current fiscal crisis worse.
Social Security is a de facto pay-as-you-go system, in which current income-earners pay for current benefit recipients. There is no real savings, only a meaningless accounting illusion called a "trust fund", which when it pays out rather than accumulates "interest income", as it started to recently, or pays out "redemptions", as it will need to soon, merely incurs a payment obligation on Treasury, which comes out of current federal taxes or borrowing. If suddenly young people were to start paying into their own retirement accounts instead of Social Security, then Social Security benefit recipients would need a substitute source of income. That would mean higher general tax rates. In other words, to the extent young people opted out, the burden of funding old-fashioned benefits would be increased for everybody else, until the opter-outers started retiring.
http://keynesianfailure.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/lies-and-the-lying-liars-who-tell-them-a-fair-and-balanced-look-at-this-years-medicare-and-social-security-trust-fund-reports/
Folks:
The FASAB is the accounting advisor for the federal government.
Here is their take on Siocial Security and Medicare from a paper entitled "Accounting for Social Insurance, Revised, Exposure Draft, Nov.17, 2008"
Page 31 - The Alternative View (the present view) is that social insurance comprises two separate nonexchange transactions - the compulsory payment of taxes and the government's payment of benefits.
Page 35 - Social insurance benefits are not part of an exchange (as in private employer retirement benefits), but are a welfare program and/or an annual general fund program like Medicaid and defense.
Go to: http://www.fasab.gov/pdffiles/socialins_exposurefinal.pdf.
Don Levit
There are certainly a lot of details like that to take into consideration.I read and understand the entire article and I really enjoyed it to be honest.
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