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Guest Post: The Strategic Advantages Of Community Building

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Alt-Market

The Strategic Advantages Of Community Building

The year was 2002, and while the majority of
Americans were completely obsessed with the so called “War On Terror”
and other devices of distraction, something much more real and decidedly
prophetic was going on in our southern hemisphere. Argentina
was in the midst of total collapse, driven by banker fraud and extreme
currency devaluation in tandem with government mismanagement and
corruption. First, cities exploded with rioting and violence as Argentinian police and military attempted to crush all dissent. Soon
after, displaced refugees from population centers along with roving
bands of thieves flooded into the countryside, wiping out isolated
farms, murdering families, and hunting down any small group of survivors
weaker than themselves and flush with supplies. The
authorities (and I use the term loosely) were too busy trying to
suppress civil protests to bother protecting those who were caught

This behavior is part and parcel of economic destabilization, regardless of the time or place in which it occurs. Only nine years ago, a very modern and technologically savvy nation of people, nearly cannibalized itself. Those
who survived and thrived did so through family aid and substantial
existing wealth, or, the tactical building of communities for the
purpose of mutual defense and alternative trade. Farmers armed themselves and formed regional groups along with security measures. City dwellers formed neighborhood watches and barter networks when the mainstream economy disappeared. The
bottom line; lone wolves and isolated country families were nothing
more than tempting targets at the onset of the breakdown in Argentina.

I and most other Americans have never personally
lived through such a collapse, though some would be preppers rather
boldly claim to be experts on surviving these specific kinds of
catastrophes. I am not an expert, and neither is anyone else who has not experienced a collapse first hand. However,
we CAN learn from the experiences of experts; those people who lived
through the Great Depression, the Argentina crisis, the implosion of
Bosnia, the breakup of the Soviet Union, the ongoing breakdown in
Greece, etc. We can analyze their successes, and their
failures, and devise solutions based on that which actually WORKED,
instead of the random theories of people who can only guess at what life
is like in the thick of hell.

One solution that has consistently been adopted and
applied by numerous societies across the globe in the face of a stratum
of different calamities is the art of community building. This strategy has proven itself over and over again regardless of catastrophic conditions. It is not theory. It is not debatable. Community
networking has been proven time and again as a means of subsisting
safely during depression, hyperinflation, mass hysteria, despotism,
martial law, and even widespread war. Unfortunately, it is a
methodology that has gone mostly ignored by many Americans, even those
who are well aware of impending economic danger.

Common Oppositions To Community Building

First, we must put to rest those misconceptions
that hinder the development of meaningful defensive community before we
are able to understand the nature of various organizational methods and
their benefits. Let’s examine some often heard arguments against the formation of survival relationships, groups, and focused networks…

1) Other People Aren’t Reliable. I Can Survive Better On My Own…

I’ll be the first to admit that some people are unreliable if not downright pathetic. On
top of this, many in our culture find it necessary to exaggerate their
abilities or their resolve until they are faced with an actual crisis,
and then they fold like a wet blade of grass. Counting on such men is a waste of time and energy, not to mention, dangerous. Certainly,
every prepper should have the ability to make it on his own, at least
for a short time, in a collapse environment, and anyone who does not
have that option is in some serious trouble.

I write a lot about “dangerous assumptions”, almost
to the point of feeling ill, because most if not all of America’s
problems are either caused or exacerbated by them. We presume too much too often, and it always comes back to bite us. Presuming that one will never be forced into a situation where he might have to survive alone for a time is foolish. There is no guarantee that we will always have others to fall back on, or that we will never be driven from our homes. On the other hand, it is equally foolish to presume that you will not face even worse circumstances while you are on your own. Unless
you have the ability to go for weeks without sleep, and to be alert to
every conceivable detail at every conceivable moment, it is insane to
CHOOSE lone wolf survival over community and mutual defense. Its
good to have the ability to go solo, but if you want to actually make
it through a collapse similar to that which occurred in Argentina or
worse, eventually you will have to work with others. This is not my opinion, it is a fact made concrete by numerous economic disasters around the world.

2) Groups Draw Too Much Attention. It’s Better To Keep A “Low Profile”…

I’m not sure where this nonsensical theory came
from, but it definitely didn’t get started by anyone who has actually
lived through economic implosion. The root of this strange
position is that organizing networks of people for trade and for defense
makes you a visible “target” for a corrupt government. At least, that’s the argument. It
may be true that more focused groups of liberty minded people are
indeed placed on lists, and singled out for surveillance or media
ridicule, however, we need to apply some logical thought here.

During an economic collapse, EVERYONE becomes a target. A target of poverty, a target of homelessness and starvation, a target of crime, a target of mass hysteria. Honestly, martial law and despotic politicians are secondary concerns. If
you have no solid community structure to brace against the fiscal
avalanche, then your problems are much larger and more immediate than
any alphabet agency goon squad or military outfit crossing the Rubicon. You, my friend, have no support. You are relying on “luck”. This is pure stupidity.

A strong community rarely attracts antagonism. On the contrary, strong communities dissuade attack, as has been proven in numerous national disasters. The risk of raiding the retreat of one man or one family is negligible compared to the risk of raiding an entire town. Most
criminally minded people (this includes bloodthirsty bureaucrats),
deliberately target the noticeably weak, and avoid any confrontation
that might actually deal them a damaging blow. Believing that one can “hide” until the storm blows over is also a serious stretch. Again, assumptions kill.

Finally, fearing the potential actions of
government so much that we refuse to take meaningful steps to even
protect ourselves is such an affront to the principles of freedom and
liberty that I shudder to imagine what it must be like to be stricken
with such cowardice. The Founding Fathers didn’t sign the Declaration of Independence, “Anonymous”. We should have the same courage to openly organize against those entities and events which aim to harm us. As we like to say here at Alt-Market; grow a pair!

3) I Don’t Have To Organize, I Can Just Leave The Country…

This argument often
includes references to WWII and the flight of more affluent Europeans to
places such as South America and Australia to escape tragedy. First,
let’s be clear; anyone who fields an argument like this must have at
least some means to travel internationally without much warning,
otherwise, they are kidding themselves. Second, they would
have to leave before the crash reaches critical mass, and before
transportation and infrastructure are affected, or they will be trapped
in-country like the rest of us. Finally, I would venture to
ask them where exactly they think they will flee to in order to avoid
the effects of a GLOBAL economic crisis? Only the ASEAN
trading bloc has taken measures to shield itself from both a European
and U.S. financial crash, and those countries have their own problems;
financial and social.

Strangely, I find China is often cited as a possible expatriate escape. If
someone is dense enough to run away from possible totalitarianism in
America just to live under assured totalitarianism in the land of the
CPC, then I say good riddance. You can’t “escape” the destruction of globalization, you can only stand and fight it. All other solutions are a stop-gap at best.

4) There’s No Point In Organizing. We’re All Doomed Anyway…

Ah, the stench of nihilism strikes again! How often do we hear this from day to day? Good
men and women have been confronting tyranny since the dawn of time, for
the betterment of the future, and without fail, there’s always some
group of quivering mental weaklings nearby to assert that “all hope is
lost”. If liberty minded people didn’t pay these whining slugs any attention back then, why should we pay any attention to them today?

The origin of this argument springs from the average nihilist’s underlying feelings of inadequacy. For them, defiance IS impossible, because they lack the backbone and the will needed for success. Unfortunately, nihilists also lack the gumption to admit this to themselves. Thus, to compensate for their failings, they project their weaknesses onto everyone else.

“Surely”, they claim, “If I can’t fight back, then neither can anyone else”. You’ll
find it is common for nihilists to react furiously and melodramatically
when they are confronted with people who have the will to stand firm in
their convictions. Nihilists feel highly threatened by men
with solid character, because their feebleness is made more apparent
when strong personalities are present. They also have a tendency towards eugenics, or overt religious zealotry to the point of obsession with apocalypse or rapture. They
WANT the downfall of humanity, because they feel so isolated by their
own pitiable existence and the desire to be proven correct in their
wretchedness that they would actually be happy to see the end of
millions of lives just to experience a fleeting moment of sour

Trying to speak plainly with anyone who makes this
argument against community building or proactive organization is usually
a waste of time. Most are simply incapable of hearing you…

Methods Of Community Building

Community networking is our best available solution in the wake of inevitable economic chaos. Ending the Fed is a noble goal. Changing government through reform and by running for office should be pursued. Reducing or completely negating the unchecked power of agencies like the DHS, FEMA, the CIA, the ATF, etc, is essential. But, none of these actions will undo the underlying damage to our economy, or prevent a collapse. At
this point, nothing can turn back the tide on the dollar, or our
national debt, and we will see a considerable downturn in markets,
employment, and wages, along with severe inflation in prices. The dam has been broken, and the flood cannot be turned back. This
means that more than ever, we must organize to lessen the injury to
ourselves and each other as much a possible, so that we are better
capable of repairing the damage done later on.

The following are a few different methods for actively constructing community groups and organizations. Some
may fit particular situations more aptly than others, but the point is
to get out of your house, and start meeting others face to face. Without this, there can be no community.

Meet-Up Groups: This is better than nothing. At
the very least, we should be able to find the time to talk with others
of like mind in a neutral setting away from our computers and express
our concerns. Weekly or bi-weekly meetings are a must. Anything less frequent will probably go nowhere. If taken seriously, Meet Up groups can easily develop into the first strides towards real community.

Protest Groups: As I’ve said in the past, street protest alone is not enough to effect positive change. Governments today ignore the will of the people, and assert policy measures without regard for public outcry. However, a protest group could help in initiating wider political action and help build bonds of trust. It is a step in the right direction, but not the end of the journey.

Farmer’s Or Garden Co-ops: Now we’re actually producing something vital; food. This
kind of organization creates tangible safety in the form of commodities
which can cushion communities from hyperinflation or total breakdown. Notice the recent government crackdowns on smaller private farming, private gardens, and even Amish farm goods? Personal food growing and especially organized citizen growing is a threat to establishment and corporate systems. If you are no longer dependent on their food, you are less likely to be swayed or controlled.

Barter Networks: My personal favorite. Barter
networks take farmer’s co-ops and other private entrepreneurial
ventures and form living, breathing economies which decouple from the
mainstream system. Now, not only does your community have
its own food sources, but its own full fledged Alternative Market along
with numerous options for currency and trade. A strong barter network with knowledgeable and skilled participants is like an oasis in the desert of economic disaster. It insulates and protects community, yet it refrains from centralizing or dominating community. Barter networking should be a number one priority for every American today.

Neighborhood Watch: No,
not the kind of neighborhood watch where everyone on the block gets
together for a barbecue and talks in hushed voices about all the devious
criminals you think are hiding behind every neatly trimmed shrub. And, not the kind of neighborhood watch where you call the cops every time you see a car driving slowly down the street. Those types of groups only create paranoia and dependency. A real neighborhood watch is a move towards independence, and self defense. With
municipal investment disintegrating, and states (like Wisconsin) on the
verge of default, you cannot always count on local police to have the
funding or the motivation to help you. Which means, you’ll have to help yourself. This is much easier when the rest of the neighborhood is behind you.

Survival Groups: Prep alone if you must, but build relationships with others if you can. Survival groups allow training with others who may have extensive knowledge in areas you do not. Also,
Survival Groups can share the financial burden of stockpiling goods,
and, they can coordinate the acquisition of supplies so that each person
has less work load to carry in the long term. Hiking, hunting, and trips to the shooting range build team awareness. If
worse comes to worse, and a full spectrum collapse takes place, you
will have an organization of trusted friends with fundamental training
ready to back you up.

State Or County Militias: Yep, I used the “M-word”. Militias
are perhaps the most criticized and demonized community type in
America, and ironically, the only group on this list specifically
mentioned in the Constitution as a national necessity. A
county militia sponsored by a liberty minded sheriff would be the ideal
situation, but this is, of course, not always possible. So, often these groups must form on their own accord without any support from local officials. Militias
are an interesting breed of organization which I have a lot of respect
for, despite the accusations of “domestic extremism”, and here’s why;
militias aren’t just larger survival groups whose only concern is the
extension of their own lives. Most militias very often take responsibility for the protection of the surrounding communities as well. They seek to ensure the safety of others in the event of collapse. This is an honorable endeavor, not “extremism”. The
establishment is so threatened by militias because they supply another
means of defense beyond standing military or law enforcement. Some militia members actually ARE standing military and law enforcement. Bad government needs the masses to remain dependent, or, it loses its source of influence. Militias take away that influence, and so, are constantly and maliciously scrutinized in the media.

Safe Haven States: A
Safe Haven State, or a “Free State”, is a state that has nurtured so
many alternative markets and liberty minded communities that it acts as a
barrier to not only collapse, but also to aggressive and corrupt
government. Today we have the beginnings of several Safe Haven States ready to be cultivated, but not any that could be called full fledged. A
Safe Haven State is Tenth Amendment conscious, supportive of sound
money measures, and restrictive of federal interference in its affairs. Barter networks are a normal part of daily life, and use of Federal Reserve fiat is minimal. It is a community that sets an example for the rest of the country.

Alt-Market and Oath Keepers are nearing launch of a project which we believe will help in the growth of Safe Haven States. The
difference between this and most other communities is that it does not
form through local effort alone, but is populated by independent people
from around the nation seeking a more free way of life. Some areas of the U.S. already have considerable foundations for community, while others are sparse, or unreceptive. Liberty
Movement participants in these places may decide that it is better to
move to a more welcoming and productive environment. Safe Haven States could fulfill this role.

Make It Happen

All community efforts require one thing above all else; initiative. We have to be willing to put in the work. Plain and simple. The
sooner this is done, the sooner we can reap the benefits of insulated
commerce, sound money, mutual defense, and sincere associations and
friendships. The most detrimental failing of the Liberty
Movement today is its propensity for inaction, or the belief that
internet research is “good enough”. Eventually, we will have to leave our comfort zones and do something with what we have learned. That
means setting aside our jobs (which likely won’t exist in a couple
years), our hobbies (which we likely won’t care about in couple of
years), our habits and addictions (which we likely won’t be able to
afford in a couple of years), our financial designs (which will be
laughable in a couple of years), and ignore the skepticism of our
immediate families (who will be thanking us in a couple of years). It means getting our priorities straight. This can be done, by everyone, and it can be done now. All that is required is the resolve to take action, and the determination to see it through.


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Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:14 | 1451265 cossack55
cossack55's picture

1. Initial battle position.....check

2. Final redoubt stocked and progress

3. Last accumulation of essentials........  in progress

gettin' there.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:32 | 1451316 Clueless Economist
Clueless Economist's picture

Keynes does not advocate investing in Guns/Ammo or Gold/Silver


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:53 | 1451373 cossack55
cossack55's picture

You referring to Freddy Keynes who lives down the street? That dope just re-fied again to buy a Volt and Ipad2s for his brats.  His corpse will be one of the first stinkin' up the place (note to self: buy more shovels and lime).

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:57 | 1451713 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

Rather than just wasting the dead, perhaps a modern day Flanders Fields?  Rather than poppies, everyone can just plant squash and tomatoe seeds.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:34 | 1451999 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

". . . tomatoe seeds."

That you Mr. Danforth "potatoe" Quale?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:44 | 1452069 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Bullets are currency. Spend them wisely...

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:18 | 1451278 Alcoholic Nativ...
Alcoholic Native American's picture

Terrorist groups.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:15 | 1451312 Weisbrot
Weisbrot's picture

the government has the military

the government has the police


the police take away peoples cameras  


the government has the healthcare (0bamacare)

the government ignores the constitution

the government may be the terrorists


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:59 | 1451739 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

I guess now is a pretty good time to "get healthy" and lose a few pounds. 

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:24 | 1451920 Buzz Fuzzel
Buzz Fuzzel's picture

Or you could just wait.  It is much easier to loose weight when you have to fight for your food.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:30 | 1452395 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Indeed, that fat may end up being the emergency energy source for millions.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:34 | 1451320 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

OT: I need to sell some silver in the next couple of weeks. Are we going higher or is another slapdown on the way? YHO is appericated...

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:16 | 1451469 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

The guy I follow has been spot on over the last three years he's been on my radar. He doesn't claim to have a crystal ball but says signs are pointing to a slap down late summer/fall. Rocket fuel resumes into 2012.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:20 | 1451489 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

MHO is higher. I'm betting we break above the current range and start climbing again. We'll know at $39. Yesterday I changed my paper trades from trying to play the range with tight stops to a long position with loose stops. Of course I have to emphasize the H part of MHO.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:57 | 1451706 Confucious 222
Confucious 222's picture

Silver is headed MUCH MUCH MUCH higher; so if you need to sell, take your time, and don't be thinking about buying it back cheaper, as that scenario is not in the script. 

IMHO of course.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:19 | 1451283 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

Backyard root crops bitches!

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:08 | 1451812 Jimmy Carter wa...
Jimmy Carter was right's picture



Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:28 | 1451947 pupton
pupton's picture

By "root crops" do you mean potatos and carrots, etc.?  (check)  Where I am potatos grow like perrenial weeds.  Plant them once and you have a crop forever...damn, this math quesiton is hard...uhhh (-16) minus ___ equals three.  Crap got it wrong.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 20:53 | 1454435 Jimmy Carter wa...
Jimmy Carter was right's picture

I believe he does, the equivalent of a 1oz eagle coin investment in seed saves me enough on food to buy 10oz of coin

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:20 | 1451286 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

I think Katrina gave the country a mini taste of this. I agree completely strength in numbers is the key. A semi alternative underground economy does exist with flea markets, craigslist, barter groups and freecycle groups.

Things though will have to get much worse before the masses riot. Cable gets cut off and fast food starts flowing then maybe we will see people take to the streets.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:37 | 1451331 snowball777
snowball777's picture

You think the lights will still be on in an economic collapse (to run your computer, to browse craiglist...)?

And I think you meant fast food stops flowing.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:27 | 1451525 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

Yes I did mean stops...the edit button vanished.

I was referring to present underground economy, not one in economic collapse. 

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:43 | 1451595 EFNuttin
EFNuttin's picture

We just went through a good dose of "Hurricane Katrina" here in Alabama.  A 195mph tornado destroyed about 20 percent of the 4th largest city in the state.  Lessons learned: 1) The looting started before the tornado was out of earshot.  2) Everyone I have spoken with since the tornado experienced looting first-hand (including me).  If anyone was shot for it, the press covered it up.  3) The local press was complicit with the local government in "keeping things calm".  They reported only 16 people arrested for looting.  A friend told me in one town, the cops were forbidden from interfering with probable looting.  It took the National Guard rolling in to finally drop the looting to a trickle.  4) Official death toll here is 44, but a careful reading of how this was computed reveals it is meaningless.  Most of the first responders I worked with during the first 24 hours agreed the real toll was around 150 to 200.  Keeping the death toll down has prevented an outcry for more tornado shelters in the future.  5)  The local builders are caught in the middle because if they wanted to rebuild with lots of shelters, those shelters have to meet FEMA standards, so they cost a minimum of $5000 apiece.  In one rural county of Alabama (Fayette), they got community shelters built a few years ago, but the doors weren't big enough for wheelchairs, so the shelters are padlocked, waiting for the contractor to fix them to FEMA standards.  Some good ol' boys buried retired church vans and buses using those as effective tornado shelters, and they didn't cost nearly $5000.  6) The water supply got questionable and boiling was recommended due to extended power outages.  7)  People nearest the tornado's path were without electric power for weeks, phone and internet as well.  8)  Still looks like a war zone here.  9) President Obama and Governor Bentley came to visit within two days after the tornado and it doesn't seem to have made a lot of difference.  10) The thing that got people through was helping their neighbors and being helped in return.  "It's 95 degrees, I have some ice if you want some.  Great, here's an extra generator I picked up so you can keep the box fans running in your house."  And so on.  11)  I knew my neighbors fairly well before the tornado and a lot better since then.  I only was without electricity for 36 hours and not so much as a tree limb down in my entire neighborhood.  12) The land line phone service from AT&T failed after about 16 hours as there weren't enough electric generators connected to the phone switch centers.  An AT&T repair guy told me they needed about 10X as many generators as they usually do after a tornado.  13)  All the economic activity of rebuilding is providing lots of cleanup and construction work so GDP impact will look great.  May as well break all your windows and replace them as an economic stimulus.

Thu, 07/21/2011 - 07:28 | 1476410 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Thanks for the post.

I've googled (and altavista'd) around for some links to the FEMA-related closure of community shelters due to their door width; can you give any external links?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:20 | 1451287 tradewithdave
tradewithdave's picture

Sounds like you've been following Marcus Raskin again.  Check out Common Security Clubs, Yes magazine, etc. if you want to see something really scary.

What's incredibly ironic about all this is that Sarah Bloom Raskin (Marcus daughter) is now on the board of the Federal Reserve courtesy of President Obama.

Dave Harrison

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:23 | 1451296 Weisbrot
Weisbrot's picture

social security = government ponzi scheme

too many taxes being misspent abroad

too many taxes being misspent at home

taxes are balanced on the working classes

employers of the working class are being over regulated

democracy without liberty is tyranny

USSR = USSA its seems to be only a matter of time


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:25 | 1451303 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Arent gang enough as communauties building?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 15:26 | 1453165 knowless
knowless's picture

yes, gangs are generally a response to a governments inability to provide for a population, and are in themselves the start of a new government.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:25 | 1451304 Vergeltung
Vergeltung's picture

good read. there is a natural tug between building alliances and keeping OPSEC. hard to negotiate that line successfully, IMO.


but, good points all around. nice post.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:36 | 1451326 White.Star.Line
White.Star.Line's picture

Definitely hard to build alliances, especially to deal with the outcome of a failing system that nobody believes is failing.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:10 | 1451442 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Indeed. I've had good luck building like-minded alliances online, very little luck in actual locale. 

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 11:55 | 1463635 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

So you'll be bugging in with a couple of twelve year old Nintendo assassins and an ex Navy cook who washed out from EOD?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:27 | 1451306 jack stephan
jack stephan's picture

Bluto: Hey! What's all this laying around stuff? Why are you all still laying around here for?
Stork: What the hell are we supposed to do, ya moron? We're all expelled. There's nothing to fight for anymore.
D-Day: [to Bluto] Let it go. War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: [to Boon] Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:29 | 1451310 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

You Americans have so much firepower distributed amongst the citizens, that if this would ever happen, the US would turn into the Wild Wild Wild Wild Wild West again.


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:40 | 1451325 Weisbrot
Weisbrot's picture


citizens arent issued gun permits and criminals dont care about permits.


the government is selling guns to mexican drug cartels.


hitler was a national socialist just like the current folks running the USSA today

what do you expect............


better learn to like it..............





Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:44 | 1451602 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Most US citizens (at the State level) are eligible for gun permits, and generally speaking a permit is only needed for carrying a gun in public (open carry vs. concealed carry is another issue), as opposed to ownership.  It gets complicated when crossing State lines (since there are 50 sets laws about where and how guns can be carried, and varying reciprocity between different States' permits).  A fair amount of education/research is required but the alternative is making it too easy for idiots, or actually cleaning up the overbearing US regulatory framework...

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:24 | 1451914 Thisson
Thisson's picture

You should see how difficult it is to get a gun license here in NYC.

It's also > $400 just for the permit.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:35 | 1452008 pupton
pupton's picture

Hey Urban, I think you're from my "neck" of the woods.  Virginia has great (permissive) gun laws and for $50 everyone that owns a pistol in VA should have the CCP. 

I don't often carry, but if I need to I know I can without a legal issue.  It's good in North Carolina too, which allows me to carry when I'm on vacation.  Plus the permit allows carry in national parks and while hunting. 

What you also need is a nice little gun for when you leave the house.  I got a couple of Ruger LCPs for warm weather carry and a Sig 229 for when I can wear more clothing.  (Get a Mossberg 500 for in the house)

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 17:37 | 1453744 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

I carried a p229 in summer and winter in Texas for five years, just about everywhere it wasn't illegal to, and no one noticed it, outside of a slip or two like when bending to reflate a tire or reaching for something high at Home Depot, and in no Texas...did this create a problem. Oddly a very slim sig p232 got spotted numerous times, carried in the same way in the same variety of places, despite taking, or so I thought, the same level of care. The p232 was meant to be the summer carry piece but it turns out the higher capacity harder hitting p229 in .357sig could be carried year round.

Thu, 07/14/2011 - 06:03 | 1455282 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

I was born on NE side of State and moved to the SW, before relocating to Switzerland, as much as a suitcase dweller can actually lives in a single location.  When I'm in VA I don't step onto the back deck for a cigarette without wearing one of my 1911s, but it is more habit and intentional discipline than any possibility of threat in the location.  I didn't realize just how many people have become so lazy that they don't practice the basic art of sitting down, as opposed to dropping their ass in a chair or couch, until I started carrying daily.

I've heard some good things about the LCP and borrowed a couple on the firing line, but I have had a collection KelTec P3ATs for backup since before Ruger introduced the model.  Both the LCP and P3AT are difficult guns to shoot well, and I say that as someone whose primary sidearm started its life as a Kimber Ultra RCP, so I practice regularly with a gun that basically doesn't have sights.  Pat Goodale offers some good training programs that include backup firearms just across the WV border.  The prices are actually better than the larger training school/factories, but the courses tend to fill up well in advance, but if you sign up to practice the Mossberg, invest in a Knoxx stock, it doesn't take very many one-arm-weak-side-slug-shots without one to make one at ten times the price seem like a steal.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:47 | 1452480 EFNuttin
EFNuttin's picture

In Alabama you pay $20 per year, there is a background check for the initial permit application, and there is zero training or knowledge requirements.  It's way more libertarian than what I experienced in Texas.  After the tornadoes, everyone, cops included, just assumed people were packing, legally or otherwise.  Folks were pretty polite, especially with all the Alabama National Guard around packing M-4's and grenade launchers(!) to intimidate potential looters.  There were a lot of hand painted signs around "You loot, we shoot", but I didn't hear of any actual incidents.  I have seen estimates that the USA has about 150 - 200 million privately owned firearms.  "Freakonomics" states that a child is 100X more likely to be killed by a swimming pool than by a gun in the USA.  If we fall into another Great Depression with the end of fiat money, I don't expect a lot of shootings since it's like the Cold War with all the weapons around already.  In New Orleans, spontaneous citizen militias patrolled neighborhoods after Hurricane Katrina to keep the looters away.  I recommend a 12-gauge pump shotgun with 00-buckshot for such duty.  It's worth about 4 pistols in a firefight and the sound of pumping it can often help "cooler heads prevail" before things come to blows at all.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 17:26 | 1453695 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Well "An armed society is a polite society" (-Heinlein, PBUH) and disarmed France is a rude, disagreable society. No wonder Sudden Debt assumes the wild west would result from everyone being armed.

But we also have his type here in America, even in Texas for example, where the "wild west" argument was bandied about everyone opposed to the Concealed Carry licensing program before it was voted into law, including numerous law enforcement personalities. Pretty much all of the latter recanted and are very supportive of the program, based on its results.

FYI in Texas, to visit the State Capitol building, in session or out, you have to go through a metal detector and have your stuff subject to search...unless you are a CHL holder, in which case you skip the queue, walk AROUND the metal detector and merely show your license to the deputy there, otherwise untrammeled. From there you can go to the senate or house or legislators offices carrying your pistol, a round in the chamber if you fancy, and as many high capacity mags as you see fit. This state of affairs was legislated by the legislators exposed to Texas CHL's Sigs, 1911's, Berettas, Glocks, S&W's, whatever they their offices and in and out of session. It is kind of cool. I took my sister in law from IRAN on a visit while the house was in session packing my P229 and 23 doses of felon repellant like it was natural right. IMHO it is a natural right.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 12:04 | 1463667 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

So........where do I get my freedom of speech permit? How about my right to due process permit? Maybe a protection from unreasonable search and seizure permit?

Thu, 07/21/2011 - 16:13 | 1478524 BigJim
BigJim's picture

They're like Rolls Royces; if you have to ask, you probably can't afford them.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:37 | 1451332 Dreadker
Dreadker's picture

The wickedy-wild-wild-west?  Don't tell me Will Smith is gonna be running all over the shop rapping about cowboys again lol

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:47 | 1451360 TaxSlave
TaxSlave's picture

The Wild Wild West is infinitely preferable to early 1930's Ukraine.  That firepower is intended to prevent such victimization.  Nothing like an Equalizer to keep things polite.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:04 | 1451379 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

 That firepower is intended to prevent such victimization

I see....


So in any discussion it goes a bit like this where you live:



a bit like the cold war where both sides have guns...

and to much whiskey...

and a countryside temperament...



Guns don't kill people right? It's the impact of the bullet that does that...

I don't think everybody should be able to buy guns.

Why don't people need to visit a shrink before they can buy one?


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:08 | 1451429 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

The imperial conditioning is strong in this one.. 

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:32 | 1451546 Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture



He's French.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:16 | 1451878 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

He's Belgian, I believe.  Ground Zero for Euro-Wankery, and the Playground of Empires.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:31 | 1451964 Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture


He says he lives in Belgium, but is French.

I hear it rumored he has a blog. Anyone have a link?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:40 | 1452037 pupton
pupton's picture

So bottom line is he's from a place that has no concept of self-defense...nuff said.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:31 | 1451965 Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture


twitchy finger

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:42 | 1452057 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Belgians make very good guns.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:37 | 1451562 SuperRay
SuperRay's picture

youbetcha!  this moron thinks the love and peace emanating from his aura will keep all the boogiemen away.  i can smell his rotting corpse already...

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:54 | 1451668 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

youbetcha!  this moron thinks the love and peace emanating from his aura will keep all the boogiemen away.  i can smell his rotting corpse already...


US citizens with guns will be the boogeymen. US citizens will keep doing what they do best: robbing from others.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:52 | 1452125 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

You ought to read up on what went on during the Taiping Rebellion.  Some crazy stuff, there.  Or is that also an illegal topic?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:58 | 1451726 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

youbetcha!  this moron thinks the love and peace emanating from his aura will keep all the boogiemen away.  i can smell his rotting corpse already...


US citizens with guns will be the boogeymen. US citizens will keep doing what they do best: robbing from others.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:16 | 1451871 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Your being wrong is not the tragedy. The real tragedy is that you are happily the NWO's brainwashed slave they've been creating for years..

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 17:12 | 1453634 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Why don't people need to visit a shrink before they can buy a gun?

You have far too much confidence in shrinks, chere franchouille.

As to your wish that not everyone should be able to buy guns....well guess what? Not everyong is able to -legally- buy guns. People under 21 for example. Convicted felons. People =legally adjucated= in various ways via due process of law to be so prohibited. And so on.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:03 | 1451777 outamyeffinway
outamyeffinway's picture

Hopefully it would only come to that :(

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:19 | 1464381 rufus13
rufus13's picture

May I assume that "Sudden Debt" is well out of range of American Militia who might be called on to save his sorry disarmed self? 


When only criminals and "officials" are armed, citizens are merely prey. 


Sorry for you and your family.



Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:33 | 1451317 White.Star.Line
White.Star.Line's picture

The only way to survive when the system goes "poof", is to be prepared.
History shows that the only options are -

1) Leaving the country (see above for key point for today)

2) Be well armed, and have lots and lots of well-armed friends

3) Be well stocked, and have tradeable goods

4) Train yourself to be tough as nails, mentally and emotionally

5) make your own luck, you will need it

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:35 | 1451323 Dreadker
Dreadker's picture

What worries me about the collapse is those that will only get it at the last minute... case in point being last night - wife and I were picking up another long rifle at the gun store and this lady came in with her two teen kids stating that she absolutely needed guns to protect herself and her children.  She told the salesman she had never used a gun, and neither had her kids, but that she wanted to walk out with a shotgun, a semi-auto pistol and a revolver.  She was also considering an AR-15....

My wife and I are ex-military and we just watched dumbfounded as she preceded to cock the shotgun and test the trigger... all from the hip... The clerk told her that it should be held at her shoulder to deal with the recoil... she then swang the barrel around and clocked the clerk on the head (by accident)... then she asked to see the pistols... she then holds both pistols Akimbo style... The clerk also asked her "Do your children listen to you?" and she replied "only when they want to" and one of the kids laughed and picked up the semi-auto, held it 'gangster' style and said 'blat blat blat'... At that point the salesman advised that she get some training for herself and her kids and seriously think this over... Then refused to serve her anymore...

With people like that running around in a riot and mass hysteria all I know is i'm staying the F out the way lol

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:41 | 1451343 snowball777
snowball777's picture

I really hope that more gun shop owners have as much sense as yours.

Thanks for the reminder to also buy...kevlar.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:45 | 1451356 Dreadker
Dreadker's picture

You get it for free if you sign up, fight a war for oil then 'forget' to return your issued kit ;-)

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:04 | 1451406 snowball777
snowball777's picture

I want a vest that works.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:35 | 1452007 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

lol!  Not a bad place to start here.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:33 | 1464417 rufus13
rufus13's picture

Body armor is good. Better quality models will stop an ice pick as well as .44Mag/00Buck. That would be NIJ Level 3a, with an anti-stab panel.


Body armor should be considered mandatory for anyone riding/driving in a small car like Smart/Mini/Fiat500/GeoMetro. Penetrating injury and blunt impact will be greatly reduced, as well as providing some protection against handgun bullets. Vehicle body panels provide nearly zero protection against any bullet (handgun or rifle, any caliber), and the engine in most cars is much smaller than one might estimate. The front windshield is actually the most effective bullet-deflector in a car (and not much at that). 


If you want a car to stop bullets, park it where it should be and fill it completely with sand/rock/earth through the sunroof and trunk. 


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:26 | 1452372 Dreadker
Dreadker's picture

yeah - mine sucks but my wifes was one of the new ones issued in usa 2009 that has beaded kevlar neck and groin protection.... the one i have is from 2003 british issue that has two plates lol... I just wish i still had my respirator... given the first barrage is always tear gas ;-)

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:43 | 1451594 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

As a competitive shooter and part time gunsmith, yes, I've found most all gun shop owners, and for that matter, most who sell guns person to person, to be just like this.  You'll get a real hard assessment before you get that gun from most of us.  We like our freedom and our sport and we really don't want some batshit screwing things up for us.  The hoplophobes always jump all over that and try to get new ignorant laws passed, sometimes with success, that only mess with the rights of those who are all right.

Once I found out how tight-knit a community it was, I myself felt a lot better about it.  A visit to our local gun club (Roanoke Rifle and Revolver) would make most people feel a lot better.  No knuckle draggin guys talking supremecy trash whatever.  More like golf or a country club in a place where it's basically guns instead of golf.  All very polite.  Idiots get thrown out, right now, and pretty hard too.

In this case, it's actually hard to join the club -- expensive and you need a member-sponsor to have a chance.  Not what many people might think, but a very pleasent surprise for many.

I know you won't buy a gun from me unless I know you well and think you're going to be alright with one and not hurt the innocent (or even the not so innocent that are better taken care of other ways).


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:56 | 1451653 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

RRRC needs to dump the douche bag NRA requirement or accept the VCDL as an alternative.  Other than that - I have nothing but nice things to say about the place and people there.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:02 | 1451394 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

if a kid points a gun at you, you don't try to talk him out but you do exactly what he wants.

You story sounds fun but pretty scary indeed.

I don't mind grownups who have it all in check upstairs buying guns, but not with a kid... and never let the kids play with it.


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:05 | 1451413 cossack55
cossack55's picture


Buy them there first .22 at eight and enroll them in firearms classes and the scouts.  This way it helps to prevent the nazis rolling over you like a speed bump on the way to Paris.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:23 | 1451508 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Yep. After the requisite gun safety class my Dad had me out skeet shooting at 10, hunting pheasant and chukkar at 12.  All the 'drama' over gun ownership is for the birds..

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:28 | 1451535 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Pellet guns work fine for learning the essentials of gun safety (and without the threat of a .22 slug rattling around in your braincase if and when junior fucks up).


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:19 | 1452322 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Ralphie: [Ralphie is shoved down the slide, but he stops himself and climbs back up] No! No! I want an Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifle!
Santa Claus: You'll shoot your eye out, kid.

Ralphie as Adult: [narrating, after BB gun shot bounces off target and hits his face] Oh my god, I shot my eye out!

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:10 | 1451828 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Until relatively recently in the nation's history, kids legally and regulary brought guns to school.  Shootings at schools are a much more recent phenomen, which has evolved since guns were largely banned.  But is given the roughly 200 years where kids and guns mixed fine, verus the roughly 30 years where they haven't- it is no more accurate to blame the gun itself than the laws against guns for gun violence - the problem lies with the "evolution" of culture and people within the US.  

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:29 | 1451954 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

We took our guns to school, might be 4 or 5 in one truck ready to go hunting after school.  I'm only 40 my how things change. O & almost every guy had a knife in his pocket. If the AG teacher asked you for your knife and you didn't have one he looked @ you like you was a fag or something. I don't need some program to teach my kid's how to shoot. believe I can handle it my self.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:06 | 1452234 Abiotic Oil
Abiotic Oil's picture

Same here 1100, at my high school there were always rifles in the racks out in the parking lot.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:41 | 1453495 XitSam
XitSam's picture

The local NRA club used to have a .22 rifle/pistol range in the basement of Idaho Falls High School. Nobody thought that was strange at the time.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:01 | 1452187 Abiotic Oil
Abiotic Oil's picture

Wow you are brainwashed.  My kids 7 and 4 have been around guns since they were born as daddy always has one on his hip.  Always taught the 4 rules of safety.  Seen what bullets do to animals, water melons etc.  Never allowed to touch a gun while alone but always able to ask to handle one with supervision.  The result?  The mystery and taboo of guns doesn't exist for them.  They really just don't care.  At first they would both ask to handle firearms all the time.  Now they don't even bat an eye and see firearms as tools.  Very very dangerous tools.


Is that better or is it better to have kids who have only seen unrealistic movies and have been denied firearms exposure and first chance they get are going to grab a gun and play with it?


What does the untrained person do when they pick up a gun for the first time?  Sweep you with the barrel and pull the trigger.  That is what is dangerous... ignorance.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:44 | 1452471 Dreadker
Dreadker's picture

totally agree Abiotic - my father in law raised both his daughters to know and respect firearms from aged 8 and the result is that level of respect of, confidence with and ability they have with firearms means they're not going to be 'playing' with them.

I came from the UK and was raised by a military family but my first actual contact with a firearm was during basic training at 19 years old - and the biggest thing the instructors instilled was that firearms should be treated as a tool and not some mysterious death machine that will kill anyone who touches them. 

I find it funny when i speak with my wifes side of the family compared to my family about firearms, as you get both ends of the spectrum - wifes side chats about them as if they're just a shovel or a drill - my side talks about them as if by owning a gun then hordes of evildoers will descend on my house and fill me with bullets lol

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:36 | 1452423 Dreadker
Dreadker's picture

As a brit who now lives in the states, and fully endorses the 2nd amendment right (privilege), i believe europe is misled into believing that if you can't own a gun then everything will be fine and dandy...

A gun is just a tool, like any other tool, that can be used when needed or you can dick around with it and injure yourself or someone else.  I mean after all, cars kill more people than guns so maybe we should ban them?  I think there should be more training or testing requirements to own a gun (like a certain number of rounds fired at a range and then some tests like gun safety practical/theory and some basic defense/tactical training - similar to a driving test) - right now in the state i live in you take a 30 min powerpoint presentation and then you can go buy yourself a shiny .357 magnum...

Like i said, my wife and I are military (USA and UK) so actually received gun training, range training, live fire etc. and we'd be happy to take a 'gun test' to purchase firearms... I think the issue is that when people say 'gun control' they immediately assume that it means you can either have them or not have them... not that they're going to actually teach you how to use them safely and effectively...

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:05 | 1451789 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

So someone with military training is genuinely concerned about fighting these people?  Seems like to me this should be at least a little confidence instilling...  kinda like watching jenny jones or a maury povich paternity episode...  "I can't be as bad as these folks".


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:49 | 1452495 Dreadker
Dreadker's picture

Well I know when and how to shoot - people like those we saw last night are the ones likely to lose their heads (literally and figuratively) in crisis situations... and put a firearm in their hands and other peoples heads get lost as well...

I wouldn't be concerned 'dealing' with them, more concerned with expecting them to not shoot someone over a loaf of bread or a tank of gasoline... Or shooting person A when aiming at person B.... Unpredictable, twitchy and dangerous...

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:41 | 1451340 Version 7
Version 7's picture

When the Titanic struck the iceberg, those trying to make it surely didn't appreciate having other people all around asking how to swim. Evocative name WSL.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:26 | 1451517 White.Star.Line
White.Star.Line's picture

Don't think we have to worry about struggling swimmers asking for lessons once the ship goes down.

Based on my experience, those iceberg-filled North Atlantic waters kept conversation to a minimum, as you can't hardly catch your breath in waters that cold.

Those that don't feel that "learning to swim" is important today, will go under the water quietly, the rest of us who are prepared will......
Eventually sink too..

You know the story, on a long enough timeline....................

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:04 | 1452220 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

I live in a neighborhood of decent, hard-working people-- that know me, and I know them, I mind my P's and Q's, know some basic survival skills, and I know a little about useful power tools, including those with lead components.  What more could I do, really?  If things really get bad, they'll be bad for everyone.  My one bit of advice is, DON'T live in the following U.S. cities/states/regions:  Washington, D.C. (Washington State is fine), Baltimore, Philadelphia, Detroit, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Long Island, New York City, Chicago, Atlanta, Florida, Arizona, Nevada, California.   If you're outside of those places, you'll do relatively okay come what may.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:25 | 1453417 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Outside of Las Vegas, why not Nevada? Proximity to California?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:51 | 1453540 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

Yes.  Also, general lack of water/trees/arable soil outside of Tahoe, long distances, not the best recipe for survival unless you're a rattlesnake or a lesser titmouse.

Thu, 07/14/2011 - 16:04 | 1457319 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Long distances can be a good perimeter and northern NV is not without water and trees. But it does get cold in the winter. As a lizard, I would say it is a tactical decision.  Same for AZ.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:51 | 1451366 pepperspray
pepperspray's picture

Get reacquainted with your local church. Plenty of pew space is available.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:08 | 1451384 Debt Rolling
Debt Rolling's picture

Before talking about "surviving an economic collapse", one must identify the precise threats and respond to them individually, not speak vaguely about some doom or chaos.

The only two threats one can encounter during an economic collapse is lack of food/lack of H2O, and thieves/looters. Civil war involves at least two big and well-organized groups (usually two governments) with precise goals, so it never happens. Revolution is too vague and idealistic to mean anything (let's slaughter the banking oligarchy -- who precisely??? how??? whith what army???), and things like that never translate into tangible events. Revolutions have always been started by intelligent splinter groups, not by the masses. 

So, how to be protected from thieves and looters?  

1) Be in the country capital to be protected by the government. Other cities are simply never defended. 

2) Be in the countryside with firearms and guards. Being in the countryside not armed is a death warrant. 

3) Hide. Low profile. Never exhibit signs of wealth. And you should be left alone. People don't suddenly mutate into blood-thirsty zombies in times of economic chaos. The optic here is to protect yourself from thieves, so not exhibiting wealth and not having a fixed residence is the surest way. 

For food and water: have gold and silver to exchange, or have a well-defended farm. Those who die are the city-dwellers with only paper money in their pockets (circa. Germany 1922-1923). 

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:12 | 1451449 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

Sorry but gold/silver will be of little use whne all goes to hell, and would you pay 1 oz. of silver for a glass of watter anyway ?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:16 | 1451471 Debt Rolling
Debt Rolling's picture

Then name something else which could be exchanged practically for food, water and shelter. Think a lot, and you won't find anything. 

Except if you have already a self-sufficient farm which would allow you to live 365 days/365, trading with others will be required.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:41 | 1451583 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

I think skills and favours will be 90% of the currency, all stored supplies will run out within 1 year no matter how prepared you are

Women will have an advantage in 'favour' trading if you get my drift

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:42 | 1451589 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

If I had a silver eagle for every 'you can't eat gold'...  crap advice and terribly misleading.  History proves that nothing, but nothing, stores wealth better than gold. Silver has always been used to spend.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:55 | 1452766 JohnG
JohnG's picture

If it's been a couple of weeks since having clean water, and you face certian painful death without it.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:07 | 1452244 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

Washington, D.C./Baltimore would be absolutely the worst place on the East Coast to weather a storm.  Those cities are seething piles of human excrement right now.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:59 | 1451385 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

You can’t “escape” the destruction of globalization, you can only stand and fight it. All other solutions are a stop-gap at best.

Hear. Fucking. Hear!

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:59 | 1451388 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

The collapse will be populated by idiots and madmen, but the law of natural selection will rapidliy neutralize them.

In my community, we have started a "traditional skills committee", and are working to build an alternative economy based on traditional skills- horse farming, blacksmithing, coopering, etc, etc. We have compiled a list of some 300 skills, all utilizing local raw and/or salvaged materials as easily obtainable inputs, and creating added value products we can use in-community or for trade/sale/barter with others. The empahisis is on subsistence, ( roughly defined as profit/loss calculations reduced to: "Am I still alive, Do I and my kids have enough to eat, and is my house warm?" If "yes", then we have eared a profit) barter economics, below the radar networking, and so on. We're all too busy, and we haven't done as much as we'd like, but the hope is that even too little too late is better than nothing at all.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:07 | 1451425 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Better two years early than one day late.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:14 | 1451440 gmak
gmak's picture

Dear Alt-Market:


What is your source for your contention that 2 days of riots led to roving gangs murdering families in the countryside?

I seem to recall the president at the time (Duhalde?) leaving the presidential palace in a helicopter.

Don't forget that the riots started because he froze all deposits and would only permit small withdrawls beginning  a year later - where all USD were converted to Pesos at 1 to 1, effectively transferring "wealth" from the populace to the banks to avoid or delay a necessary write-off (credit deflation) of bad debt.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:11 | 1451443 MrBinkeyWhat
MrBinkeyWhat's picture

Well presented. Thank you.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:29 | 1451537 tunalure
tunalure's picture

what are the best survivalist sites around?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:15 | 1451869 Clay Hill
Clay Hill's picture is fairly decent, Jim is a very well-intentioned fellow.

Ferfal actually lived thru the Argentinian collapse. I like his idea of having overseas investments to provide income, but disagree with his attitude toward stockpiling tools, and learning to use them.

A pretty comprehensive on the ground report from post-Katrina La. can be found here.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:17 | 1453381 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Try : M.D. Creekmore.

Also you should read Mr. "Comma Rawles" at SurvivalBlog idea of an "American Redoubt", unless you are a Christian or othodox Jew you need not apply. If you're ok with that, good. Not my cup of tea.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:30 | 1451541 Agent 440
Agent 440's picture

Guns, gold, guns gold....o_0

Before markets people 'invested' in children.

The pitter patter of little feet is your real Social Security fund.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:32 | 1451547 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

I'm ready.  My plan is to be Mad Max and head for Bartertown. 

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:37 | 1451558 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Nice piece. Well reasoned and thorough. Plenty of troll banter to see that it is bothersome to the Elite. 

Prior to government, people formed communities, engaged in trade with contracts and arbitrated conflicts. In some places, they still do. 

When we become dependent on government, we stop depending on community and ourselves. As our government is a police state and an enemy of liberty, it behooves us to find non-violent methods of divorcing ourselves from the requirements of government.

Community and alternative economies fit the bill. The less you ask from government, the less you interact with or the less you receive from government, the less need there is for government. Governments exist at the pleasure of the people. It cannot survive the loss of support from the people. 

If a community can provide a list of benefits that allow for a lifestyle that is preferred to the one offered by government- which would you choose? 

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:01 | 1451756 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Great comment, Sean7k.  Your metaphor of divorce is very appropriate, no other path leads to personal freedom and sovereignty.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:37 | 1451564 AGuy
AGuy's picture

The problem with most self-sufficiency groups is that they fall into to major categories:

1. The Hippy permaculture group. Bent on living in abject poverty with out access to modern tools and equipment. They usually shun guns and other defensive measures and apply a near laissez faire torwards survival. I expect these groups to fail early on, as they fail to embrace modern tools and defensive measure required to survive. The first roving gang that finds them is going to decimate them.

2. The Militia beans and guns groups, that put there efforts nearly entirely into guns and stocked provisions, and have little insight in agraculture and other practices once there previsions run out. I expect the majority of these groups to disintegrate within after the first few months of collapse, cause by internal violence as they reach for thier guns to settle internal disputes.

A few observations:

1. Survivalists all most always under estimate the amount of food they need to produce in order to survive long term. They tend to believe that a couple of acres is all it takes, and don't account for unexpected events, such as poor weather, drought, crop infestations, and other calamities that can wipe out an entire crop. Survivalists need to grow at least double their yearly food consumption to ensure survival.

2. Few look at exploiting mechanize agraculture equipment. This is not just tractors, but tools such as grain driers, irrigation, threshing, etc. They also need to develop the resources to produce fuel to run equipment (ie Gasifier, biodiesel, etc). Portable sawmills to turn trees into lumber, Machine tools to fabercate replacement parts for machines that break.

3. Few choose to relocate to regions that provide adquite natural resources, such as good rain fail. Few choose to relocate to a rural, defensivable land. I see lots of people buying land in the southwest (mostly because land is dirt cheap), but fail to consider that that region in now in a ten year drought and will significantly decrease long term survival odds. I also see people buying farms, with no, or few trees. Trees are an import resource for both energy (burning wood for heat, cooking, and fuel via gasification), and construction material. Trees can be turned into lumber with the proper tools. Farms are usually exposed to the round and make easy targets for drifters and roving gangs. Retreat property should be hidden from site with a heavily wooded area to hide buildings and crops so that they are not visible from the round or from nearby ridges.

4. Few people take energy efficiency and lack of electricity into consideration. They purchase an old farm house that has very poor insulation and will go through many cords of wood to heat it during the winter. Many homes are also no livable without electricity and become ovens in the summer. Many rural homes have deep wells that require electricity to get the water to the surface. other plan on depending on springs that might become containmated (ie burning cities releasing nasty poisonous chemicals all over the land hundred or thousands of miles away).

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:37 | 1452430 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

+10.  All great points.  You have emphasized that if society breaks down completely there's only room for about 1 out of six of us.  And the survivors will be living like peasants.  It usually never comes to that, however.  Usually when things go bad people get better.  They self-organize for trade and protection very quickly.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 18:35 | 1453954 AGuy
AGuy's picture

Well, I am not so sure about that, at least in the USA. To many people have become narrowly focus arround their career. For instance, Few people outside of the auto industry can repair a car besides changing a tire, or the oil. Back during the Great Depression 60% of the populatio lived on farms. Today, its less than 10%. So only a small amount of the population knows anything about growing food. Most of the Farming is also specialized (mono-culture farming). Most farmers go to the supermarket to get groceries. They lack the equipment and knowledge to grow a broad range of crops necessary to survive.

When TSHTF, its likely 90% of the population in Western nations will die with in 5 years.

Mon, 07/18/2011 - 13:50 | 1464515 rufus13
rufus13's picture

There is a mutual-aid agreement to be made between group #1 who needs protection and training to defend themselves, and #2 who needs food and labor for a post-fuel time. 

They need each other to survive. 


High-efficiency electrical/electronic gear that runs off of locally-obtained supplies is going to be important. Fuel-consuming generators will be for short times/emergency and war. Long term low-density power of solar/wind/hydro with a little bit of woodgas-fueled or bio-Diesel ICE generation/propulsionwill be the new standard. Got seasoned wood? Even functional deep-cycle batteries/inverters will be scarce a decade after they stop being produced/distributed to "regular" people. 


My Kubota EL-300E makes 4hp and about 75A@24v while burning 16oz of Diesel fuel per hour. Yes, that's ONE US Gallon for 8 hours running at rated load.   The fuel cost at about $0.13KW/Hour is lower than the price of grid power in about half of the USA (it's half the cost of power in Hawaii), and will seem very reasonable if the grid is intermittent or down.  The gasoline/propane/ng generators are not nearly as thrifty, but can crank out enough juice for welding or heavy tool use. Conservation and planning to do without is the plan.  There is no bulk-heating of water or air with electricity, lighting is with LED's (thrifty with power as well as very long life).  Solar panels have seemed expensive, so there are just enough Watts for charging at a high-trickle (1/20th battery bank) which saves generator/charger run time. 

Search "living with ample power 12v" for a Seattle company to hook you up with sailboat tech. 


Even firewood will become a little bit dear, or at least stacked and dried firewood. Investigate Russian fireplace called "Grubka" or more recent design called "rocketstove" that uses about 1/6th the wood of a standard stove and makes better heat in a house via high-mass construction. 



Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:00 | 1464516 rufus13
rufus13's picture

double-post, sorry. 

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:37 | 1451567 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

Beside the point of alterative ecoomies and collapse scenarios -

It will not happen here that way. A collapse surely will come, but it will be "arrested" (pun intended) by the imposition of martial law and a totalitarian gov't-command economy. If you want to know how it will work, think "katrina", as in, not very well, and heavy on the Blackwater.

Other points: 1. A scapegoat will be needed. Make sure you aren't in a scapegoat demmographic.

2. Because the witch-hunt for a scapegoat tends to develop "creep", you probably will eventually end up in a scapegoat catergory. Keep a low profile, keep your big fat mouth shut.

3. Accelerate your education on previous with-hunts, ie, The Spanish Inquisition, Soviet Commuism, etc. All follow a pattern- this way when you are apprehended by the security organs, you will know what is in store for you.

4. When captured/apprehended, you will be lied to and then tortured into making denunciations of others. That's why you were captured in the first place- someone else ratted you out.

   A) Don't believe the lies. They will not let you go, no matter what they say. If they do, it is just to track you and to re-arrest you later. Once you have been captured, you are in for at least ten years. The sooner you accept this, the better prepared you will be to resist.

B) Keep you big fat mouth shut. Don't sign anything. The corrupt system will have an obsession with pro-forma legality and record-keeping. Every time you sign, you voluntarily  relinquish another right, and give them another excuse.

C) Forgive yourself. They will torture you into making denunciations. Intense paiin and overwhelming panic will likely cause you to speak involuntarily. You did the best you could. Let it go and make peace with yourself.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:44 | 1451600 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

You didn't grow up with movies like Rambo he? Apocalyps Now? Platoon? Escape from NY? Snow White? Scarface? Aliens?



Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:54 | 1451669 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

I grew up with all those movies. What's your point? And please explain why Snow White is in the list...are you referring to the futile attempt to escape surviellance?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:58 | 1451731 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

I grew up with all those movies. What's your point? And why is Snow White on the list? is it the futile attempt to escape surveillance?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:58 | 1451718 White.Star.Line
White.Star.Line's picture

The fact one reads and/or posts on ZH, already puts you in a "scapegoat demographic".

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:00 | 1451748 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

Precisely. Now go and read The Gualg Archepelago.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 18:41 | 1453972 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"a totalitarian gov't-command economy. If you want to know how it will work, think "katrina", as in, not very well, and heavy on the Blackwater."

Very unlikely. After Katria the area was pure anarchy for nearly three weeks. It wan't until aid poured into the region from the outside that order was restored. A Collapse will happen from the top down. Imagine if Katria hit the entire US. There would be no aid anywhere to restore order.

The first to go will be the federal gov't as the dollar becomes worthless and made powerless. Blackwater, etc aren't going to go to war when they are paid in worthless dollars.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:43 | 1451574 Rynak
Rynak's picture

I'm pretty sure this is the worst comment thread that i've seen on ZH yet (with this, i do not mean every single comment, but the overall thread).

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:57 | 1451709 Agent 440
Agent 440's picture

That's not really fair. I mean have you seen the other threads??

Mon, 07/18/2011 - 00:47 | 1465467 Rynak
Rynak's picture

about 12 moths of quantity and quality. "How much" that is, i leave up to the expericene of popular opinion.

As for me, my issue with this comment thread is, that that the majority of comments, does not actually address the questions presented in the article, to the extend it deserves..

Or on short: Most of the resonses, are of the cheapass kind.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:00 | 1451746 White.Star.Line
White.Star.Line's picture

Too bad you couldn't have saved this thread with a post displaying your brilliance!

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:50 | 1451639 awakened
awakened's picture

The article is pretty good in alot of ways. I remember reading an article from someone from Argentina writing about his experience. I think I got to the link from someone commenting on this site, but did not save it. He wrote about those who were isolated on farms having it rougher. He recommended having dogs to warn of intruders but that dogs were being poisoned. It made me think twice about moving to the country and being isolated there. Still trying to determine where I need to be when TSHTF.

Not too sure about this paragraph or who it is speaking toward:

"Nihilists feel highly threatened by men with solid character, because their feebleness is made more apparent when strong personalities are present. They also have a tendency towards eugenics, or overt religious zealotry to the point of obsession with apocalypse or rapture. They WANT the downfall of humanity, because they feel so isolated by their own pitiable existence and the desire to be proven correct in their wretchedness that they would actually be happy to see the end of millions of lives just to experience a fleeting moment of sour vindication."

It seems to include Christians who read the book of Revelations and believe in a rapture as Nihilists. I ascribe to the post-tribulation rapture belief, that the God of Justice will come down through the clouds with vengeance, but only after a severe tribulation of a duration of time that can only be speculated upon, among other things occurring. I have a strong sense of purpose, but realise that my life at any time could be taken. If so it would be a great privilege and honor to be included in the great army of saints coming down from the clouds to fight in the final battle (Armageddon). This is basic Christian theology. Somewhere along the line the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture entered in, having no real theological basis.

Additionally, like minded Christians are some of the most prepared out there, having strong community as well as guns. They are not Nihilists.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:05 | 1451786 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

You imply that stocking up on spiritual and moral character development is one's best long-term (as in eternal) survival strategy. How subversive! It makes gold, guns, and beans somewhat irrelevant.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:29 | 1453437 awakened
awakened's picture

You may feel that stocking up on moral character and development makes it irrelevant for one to stock gold, guns and food however, that is YOUR thinking not mine.

What I attempted to write is that the many Christians live in tightly woven communites that support one another and that many are actively preparing, as in stacking silver, gold, food and guns as well as generators, alternate energy sources, and attempting to get off-grid. My main point is that they are not nihilists.

Nihilism ( /?na?.?l?z?m/ or /?ni?.?l?z?m/; from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more putatively meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism can also take epistemological, metaphysical, or ontological forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or that contrary to popular belief, some aspect of reality does not exist as such.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 17:21 | 1464577 rufus13
rufus13's picture

FERFAL from Argentina has some very interesting recollections that don't make it to "official" histories of the monetary collapse/default/revaluation. 


+1 on Christians being a source of the ReOrg. I expect the LDS Church and their membership to be instrumental in this out here in the Western States. They have organization, supplies, and aren't a foreign invading force (which Federal troops and Contractors are). I see them as one of the most patriotic American religions of significance, with doctrine that will preserve their membership and as a side-effect, neighbors/friends of Members who are useful/cooperative. 



Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:50 | 1451641 smore
smore's picture

Excellent.  Gold, silver, lead, and dried food are not going to get you through the Fourth Turning, America!

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:08 | 1451815 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Great article and it confirms my feeling about how lucky I've been in this regard.  I moved out of DC (old cold warrior) in the late '70s, bought a tiny bit of land in the boonies (SW VA, mountains) and built from there -- not because I thought the sky was falling, but to get away from that whole lifestyle and build a better one.

Homesteaded -- that was hard, starting from a pop up camper and bare land, but I've managed OK and now have 4 dwellings on the about 50 acres I own (depends on how you calculate area, the hills are steep).  Took awhile, but all the old timers and 'necks have accepted me as one of their own, and when someone wanted to start a neighborhood watch, we went along but basically it was a joke -- we had a better thing going already, the Little Old Lady phone-gossip net.

People who live far apart are naturally security concious, as we all know that when not home, no one can see someone breaking in - no cops to speak of, and a bad guy would have a long time to work.

All of us are pretty ready.  Small time farmers, crafts people, entrepeneurs.  By the very nature of being such and living here -- you're well armed, and importantly, know how to use force and are ready 24/7 for just about anything -- varmints, weird weather, accidents that might require pretty good first aid skills to save someone, power outages for those who still depend on grid power - you name it, we've been there and done that and most are ready.  If someone shows up who "ain't from around here, are ya?" they'll get some fairly serious scrutiny -- good natured if you are, not so much if you're not.

As such, if the bad stuff goes down, this is the sort of place you'd expect people to flock to, trying to exchange their gold for food and water.  We'd be hospitable if you are - but dream on if you think anyone wants your gold for something much more important and scarce, and we have gold ourselves.  IF you want us to feed you and put a roof over your head, well, there's limits and you should know that up front.  We don't want your fake money -- and even gold qualifies there when times are tough enough and food is the thing.  What we'd like is your skilled help to produce more food, and get more water (though here that's not going to be a problem -- all water flows OUT of the county I live in, we are the source for the surrounding entire area).

So bury most of your gold, we're not buying, in general.  We'd want your labor, skills, and tools, far more valuable.  Most of us DO have more food than needed, again, not because we think the sky is falling especially hard right now, but due to the nature of being small time farmers who preserve plenty of their own output for later, generally a year's worth for the extended family, more or less.

In short, that hip-hop crap where some gansta says he's going to the country with his high-cap 9mm, kill farmer brown and live high off the land makes us laugh out loud.  That guy will never get into range to use it, and it won't make him bulletproof, and nobody, even an expert, lives high off the land anyway.  We get by just fine, thanks, but...not like many might expect.  It's hard work, not all crops succeed, we do have "weather events" though living on the side of a mountain is fairly ideal there -- hurricanes go over the top, floods down in the bottom, and you're just watching from the middle.

We recently have had a couple of severe weather events, the most recent a microburst and some tornado activity.  Long before any government response, we were all out in the streets with chainsaws and trucks and logging gear clearing the roads, pulling neighbors out of their crushed homes, doing first aid, feeding the injured -- just came naturally, and of course no money was exchanged or expected, duh -- next time it might be you, we know that.  Same deal when we had a crazy ice storm and you couldn't even stand up on the road -- you wound up at the bottom of any nearby hill.  That is, unless your neighbor with the tractor and chains and bucket came and cleared things out -- which is what happened, again, long before any government aid (heck, they were as usual, less prepared than we and couldn't get to work).

That's the reality where I live - and it's not survivalist in the usual sense of the word, though we're probably better at it than most who would put that label on themselves.  In pre-y2k in fact, a couple of those groups did arrive, built barbed wire compounds and tried to learn how -- and failed pretty miserably.  We tolerated them, but they've left now.  Their wack-job leadership has gone on to other endeavors.  And it was kind of funny -- they rejected social commerce with us, who were far more "ready" in any sense you'd name and willing to help them learn what we already have down solid.

All this came about pretty naturally from the nature of, well, nature, where we live.  You learn to be ready, you learn to help (because it might be you next time who needs it), if you're a jerk no one will help you and you'll eventually have to move on, so people are nice, honest (in a small town, everyone knows everyone going all the way back and it takes a long time to live down a transgression), and hard working.

So, I reiterate -- there's places that are naturally ready for most disruptions, but don't think a few chunks of shiny metal will fake us out like glass beads did the Native Americans -- it ain't gonna fly, we don't need that.  So if that was your plan if the SHTF -- I'd advise more planning and some upfront visiting areas like this to get the lay of the land socially - you'll do better.


Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:22 | 1451892 smore
smore's picture

Yes, you are lucky. Very, very lucky. People in your position probably represent less than 0.01% of the population. 

Unfortunately, your fate will be determined by how the other 99.99% act.

Are you still feeling lucky?

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 18:56 | 1454016 AGuy
AGuy's picture

+1 for SHTF plan.

+2 for Farnsworth!

+3 for choosing land with good rainfall, and lots of natural resources

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:30 | 1451958 Animal Cracker
Animal Cracker's picture

A good post for the "Yeah, but there's nothing I can do about it" crowd.

As someone who went through that stage, thanks.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:56 | 1452158 AchtungAffen
AchtungAffen's picture

"Argentina was in the midst of total collapse, driven by banker fraud and extreme currency devaluation in tandem with government mismanagement and corruption. First, cities exploded with rioting and violence as Argentinian police and military attempted to crush all dissent. Soon after, displaced refugees from population centers along with roving bands of thieves flooded into the countryside, wiping out isolated farms, murdering families, and hunting down any small group of survivors weaker than themselves and flush with supplies."



I'm an Argentinian and I lived through those times. Currency devaluation wasn't THAT bad. ARS went from being 1/1 with USD to being 2-3/1. Much less than it was during the late 80's with the real hyperinflation.

But mostly, THERE WEREN'T NO BANDS OF DISPOSSESED RAVAGING TOWNS... there were some lootings in urban centres, but nothing of the sort of Mad Max-ism this article suggests...

All a bunch of fearmongering for scared Americans to buy more guns...

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:27 | 1452652 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

you misread the article - and are blessed that you lived in a solid community that let you slack to the point of not needing to know how it survived

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 16:42 | 1453498 AchtungAffen
AchtungAffen's picture

WTF you talking about? When I said bullshit, I called it on the part I quoted. While I agree on most the article says, that part about Argentina is plain wrong.


"and are blessed that you lived in a solid community that let you slack to the point of not needing to know how it survivedand are blessed that you lived in a solid community that let you slack to the point of not needing to know how it survived"

And I guess the guy who posted about the mobs running down towns knows more than me, who actually lived through that. Govt collapse, currency devaluation, joblessnes and tear gas. Right there on the street. Much different from you and hte guy who wrote this article.

Argies didn't need no guns to survive. That's for sure.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:58 | 1452172 trentusa
trentusa's picture

This is a great article, but as a Nietzchian I find myself taking exception to the descriptions of nihilists by the author. An nihilist is an idealist who doesn't believe in good or evil. Their is much less daylight between Nietzsche & Shakespeare than 99.9% of non-philosophy majors who happened to have majored in etymological philosophy just like Nietzsche and studied same languages, Latin Greek ( but not German, which is much more like ancient Greek than Latin or English).

NIHILISM (from American Heritage Dictionary)- 1) a doctrine holding that all values are baseless & that all knowledge is the result of epiphany and therefore nothing can be TRULY known (xcept by God) or communicated. 2) the belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement    from Latin nihil = nothing

    Most of my strength to stand on my convictions I got from Nietzsche, who is the best teacher ever had in my youth. As an adult I prefer Shakespeare. Thus Spoke Zarathustra is a training manual for iconography, but need a teacher to understand it you dont just pick Nietzsche up off a bookshelf w/o trained help & xpect to understand it.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:49 | 1452743 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Ouch, I got brain freeze from reading that... that was some serious deep space.

Trentusa, you'll be happy to know that since all knowledge and thoughts are just physical manifestations, and the  Holographic Principle says everything in the universe is recorded and preserved as information on the Planck scale, technically, the Bard, Elvis, and Herr Nitsche have never even left the building, give or take a couple of dimensions. 

Those that prepare for a collapse will be the ones to put the "create" in creative destruction. People are free to fascinate their inner nihilist but the collapse of Rome led to centuries of hard times and lost knowledge, aka, the Dark Ages. 

I'm all for selective nihilism, such as getting rid of the odious national debt and the Federal Reserve System to create a new monetary system that is not unconstitutional. Let's start there and see what else shakes loose.  




Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:09 | 1452262 gwar5
gwar5's picture

I've been preaching this solution since it's how my grandmother got through the depression. All true, all works and no surprise.

Everyone should have a handy list of the best (past) disaster tactics the same way they keep a first aid kit. Indeed, best techniques are Networking, Cooperative defense, and local trade. It's the way most neighborhoods used to be before people turned into psychological shut ins. 

The other reason to community build during a collapse is to simply maintain and preserve civil society. Those in cooperative communities are the ones who will carry the same values and principles forward to rebuild society when things improve. A society that is not beat down, weary, or confused, and has a full belly, will not become easy prey for despots posing as saviors. Strength in numbers will fight the psychological fatigue.  

Remember, there are anarchists and marxists actually want to create a collapse and bring about a revolution so they can recast society into something ugly (look at their websites).  NFW = No fukking way!

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:22 | 1452626 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

preach on..  i remember those days as well - and those people do exist but they don't spend a lot of time online

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:19 | 1452620 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

goodluck with this crowd - we all know which nuggets they will pick from this and cower from the world at large


I hear zero about barter from any of you... probably since you don't really have any skills/production to barter with.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 14:39 | 1452943 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

That's a little bit of an unfair generalization.  Barter is implicit in a micro-community survival strategy. Neighborhood level contacts are the prime directive, if you can deal with higher levels than that without attracting Leviathan's unwanted attention, good for you. I give neighbors firewood now, they lend me their tools. Building trust and reciprocity. I'd say that the Wall Street/Princeton eating club gold-bug contingent here is a minority among the US posters.  Most pro-PM people here seem to be the kind of guys you'd encounter at a rod & gun club dinner, including yours truly, that don't plan to fly in their private jet to Bermuda with their "holdings" or what have you.  I.E., we're by and large common sense Jeffersonian individualists (seems a lot of the socialists on ZH have thinned out recently).  Frankly, I'm not really seeing the sense in bartering with someone in Ohio or California or wherever, but barter is obviously key.

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:41 | 1452717 Magnum
Magnum's picture

Americans love to buy things, and we have a huge country full of resources.  We can produce food and we are very unwise to the way of the world.  What I mean is that we have very stupid laws which allow most anyone to show up and buy our property.  Any self-respecting country has laws which prevent foreign ownership.  Not USA.

I think it's really in the best interest of the PTB to keep our system running, so we can be crapped on by foreigners who want a piece of our land.  In this sense, we could just go on and on with slowly-eroded standard of living, and never have a sudden collapse.

Many cops here in USA are thugs, veterans from Iraq with deep personality/psychological issues.  If we do experience a collapse and lawlessness, and stores have no food, the resulting chaos will be far worse than anyone can imagine.  Americans (I am one but very well-traveled and bilingual) have extremely low patience, and one little disruption and Americans snap very easily.  I am not talking about blacks acting like wild monkeys (which will occur) but white Americans spoiled from decades of easy living, are probably going to snap mentally and go crazy first.

The first sign of chaos in the streets and I will very quickly make a decision whether or not to leave the country.  Say what you want about Europe, but I'd much rather be stuck in a rut among the more decent and self-sufficient Europeans than among my own people in USA.  

Wed, 07/13/2011 - 14:13 | 1452836 VyseLegendaire
VyseLegendaire's picture

I think your description of Argentina is a bit far fetched.  After all, Argentina is more or less intact today.  I think in the US, the breakdown may be even less chaotic.

But as others have said there's a good possibility of a police state takeover.

As for communities, I guess they can provide a certain level of backstop to a full on collapse. The biggest roadblock to good communities will be the onerous regulations and taxes being raise all over the society however.



Wed, 07/13/2011 - 15:53 | 1453271 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Add Search & Rescue teams to list of communities. Good skill building.

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