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Guest Post: Those Who Break The Law Must Be Punished Accordingly…

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Simon Black of The Sovereign Man

Those who break the law must be punished accordingly…

One of the things that’s really great about Panama is how open the
country is to foreigners.  All nationalities are welcome in Panama, and
if you spend any time on the ground, you’ll quickly find people from
six continents and dozens of countries.

Panama is an example of how I see governments moving in the future–
like Singapore, Chile, Hong Kong, and may others, Panama is the kind of
place that seeks to attract foreigners, to compete for them by
providing a number of incentives. Panama does this most pointedly with
its retirement ‘pensionado’ program, but there are a number of other
such programs. In fact, the country’s immigration law has so many
different categories, it’s possible for just about everyone to find a
way to move here.

In other places, immigration is unfortunately a four letter word. The
borderless Schengen area in Europe is on the verge of disintegration as
a number of countries in the region begin to put up border checkpoints
to restrict the free movement of people (and capital).

In the United States, the government has been eager to show that it’s
not slacking on the illegal immigration issue. The result has been an
increase in the size and scope of its persecution against “undocumented
workers” as well as the businesses which hire them. I can just
imagine the conversations within the hallowed halls of government:
“those who break the law must be punished accordingly…”


Untitled Those who break the law must be punished accordingly...

Help! Robbery in progress! (source: Tom Tingle/The Arizona Republic)


But this begs the question: what kind of laws—and hence what kind of nation—are we talking about?

Whenever the only defense of a policy is “it’s the law”, it’s
worthwhile considering whether that policy is, in fact, ethical. After
all, it was perfectly legal for one human being to own another for much
of history. Legality certainly is not the same as morality, and
politicians have a bad tendency to conflate the two.

One of the chief arguments against free immigration is that old song
about “stealing jobs.” It amazes me that some people still believe this.

When you patrol borders and restrict the flow of people who are happy
to work hard for less money, this is really no different than wage and
price controls. Anyone with even the most basic understanding of
economics can realize that such practices build inefficiencies into the
system– companies who pay more for labor pass these costs on to
consumers, low skill workers have less competition (hence incentive) to
learn new skills and move up the labor food chain.

Most of all, in the undocumented labor world, the government isn’t
able to take its fair share of the pie. Among undocumented workers,
there are no tax withholdings, no payroll deductions, no retirement
plans to regulate, no medical plans to enforce. I suspect this is the
true reason behind the politicians’ “stealing jobs” argument.

Another argument against free immigration is that foreigners
‘unfairly’ receive benefits. But the problem herein lies in the
existence of public benefits in the first place. Does a German do
backflips in the street when s/he pays taxes so that another German can
have free healthcare? Do Canadians enjoy subsidizing education for other
Canadians? Do Americans swell with pride when they pay their taxes,
hoping that the money goes to pay some other American’s mortgage?

This is utter nonsense, and the degree to which one can voice the
“immigrants unfairly receive benefits” argument is directly proportional
to the level of socialist redistribution in a country… again, not
exactly ideal for economic growth.

Then there’s the argument linking immigration and crime. Frankly this
is strictly a criminal matter, not an immigration one. Saying that
immigrants are more prone to crime makes about as much sense as saying
any particular group—young, poor black males…older, white Wall Street
types…people with surnames ending in vowels—is more prone to crime.

The nearly 300 illegal immigrants in Porstvile, Iowa, sent to federal
prison in 2008 didn’t rob or rape or kill anybody.  They didn’t despoil
anyone’s property. Their only crime was working in an arbitrary
geopolitical designation without having begged and waited for the proper
political sanctions.  The family owners of the business as well as
their accountant now face 80 years in federal prison. They are guilty of
no violence, only of having hired people that a centralized agency
didn’t approve of beforehand.

Countries, states, and provinces that persecute business and people
in this manner are the kind you want to avoid.  A nation that tries to
criminalize more and more aspects  of people’s lives—what they put in
their own bodies, where they can live, whom they can hire—is a nation
that will see economic decline to go along with decaying liberty and the
increasing number of  lives destroyed by the enforcement of unjust



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Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:22 | 1344588 redpill
redpill's picture

That's all fine and dandy, but Panama was under the boot of Manuel Noriega 25 years ago, and there's nothing to say it couldn't happen there again or anywhere else for that matter.

Simon was pitching the idea of a sustainable community of expats in Panama until the Panamanian government decided to be a US lapdog and cough up everyone's financial records.  Now he's moved on to Chile.  Most people don't want to move to a different country every six months.

You can make a passioned argument about not treating illegal immigrants like criminals, but when people in Southern California can't get in to the emergency room because it's packed full of illiegal immigrants coming in for routine medical issues, someone needs to take a reality check.  As long as we're going to always treat people who walk in the emergency room door (and I think we always will), or various other social services, you have to have some restriction on the flood of people coming across the border.


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:23 | 1344624 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Peru was looking pretty good until yesterday.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:27 | 1344652 zaknick
zaknick's picture

You're in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Inca nation rises again and will expel the perfidious Albion.


Tue, 06/07/2011 - 00:16 | 1345860 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

"an increase in the size and scope of (u.s. governement's) persecution against “undocumented workers"...

will the Tyler Durden that wrote this kindly suck my all American Weiner?

is this the same globalist shill Durden who occasionally lauds China Inc. for its "manufacturing prowess"?

China Inc. makes shit products with slaves.

Mexicans are imbecilic peasants with a penchant for violence attempting to flee the dysfunctional Narco State of their own cultural creation. Though they make ideal drones and their food IS delicious, they've created little of cultural value over the centuries, seem indifferent to education (outside of "latino studies"), while exhibiting an inexplicable sense of racial superiority, they incentivize decadence in my country and just generally SUCK.If YOU want to convert your garage for their benefit i suppose that's up to you but i urge you to cease inflicting this globalist narco corrida on the readership of ZH

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 01:30 | 1346034 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

i disagree that the mexican narco state is their own cultural creation.  imo the u.s. harrison narcotics act of 1914, et. al. is the creator.  

and for a lovely lesson in current u.s. corporate police state misuse of the "justice" system check out out ttp://

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 02:30 | 1346085 mr_T
mr_T's picture

Blah...blah...blah... We spend more on one week of.pomo.. wake up white people..

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 02:36 | 1346086 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

Hey, I KNOW it takes 2 to tango...Our myriad National problems will NOT be solved however by importing millions (more) peasants. Peasants who attempt to ameliorate their pathetic status with ego boosting tales of ethnic grandeur and a "dumb and dumber" version of manifesto destino latino. In 200 years Mexicans seem to have achieved Ciudad Juarez and frankly I don't want the fuckers in here....I (obviously) don't admire them.

It may be a racial thing with them but it's a Culture thing with me....

if they were BETTER than us I'd still want them to wait in line but I'd feel a LOT better about living next door to them.

As it is i see them as pathogens invading an open wound....


Tue, 06/07/2011 - 08:07 | 1346304 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

You're about as ugly and ignorant as they come.

There's a word for people like you.  And that word is nigger.

Go fuck yourself, you nigger.

If you really wanted to solve the problem you'd stick a bomb up your ass and go see how laws are made in this country.  Then when the next sorry asshole steps up to the lecturn to beg forgiveness for their latest foible, you could fart.

But you won't do that, because you'd rather just flap your vagina lips and queef out silly diatribes against symptoms of the idiocy that you allow to happen by allowing yourself to be distracted with programmed side issues.

Your infantile diatribes are a prayer to God that this country will descend into a lawless tyranny.  Bless you, because your prayers are being answered.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 08:41 | 1346397 selecsosi
selecsosi's picture

+1, That guy is a douche

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:25 | 1347166 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

fuck you Chumlicker....

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:44 | 1347134 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

an(other) incoherent response from you Chumber...

but then, you haven't done anything for me since "Tubthumping" ya old...quiff, and even that was mediocre

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 19:20 | 1345082 AchtungAffen
AchtungAffen's picture

Perú looks a lot better today than it would have with fucking Fujimori's daughter...

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:31 | 1345551 Hive Raid
Hive Raid's picture

When all factors are considered, Illegal Aliens Cost Americans $113 Billion Annually:


"[Robert Putnam's] five-year study shows that immigration and ethnic diversity have a devastating influence on the social capital, fabric of associations, trust, and neighborliness that create and sustain communities." :


The Hispanic drive to wage genocide Americans, and "reconquer Aztlan":


What possible benefit could Americans possibly gain from this invasion of our homeland? Absolutely none. It is destroying our country and our people. Why does it go on...

After decades of efforts, Jewish coalitions finally succeeded in passing the 1965 immigration act. Their goal: racial dilution of White America, to provide an ethnic environment more favorable to Jews. Just four decades later, this ongoing Jewish effort [aided by their monopoly control of mainstream media, university history and social science departments, and banking] has resulted in the ethnic cleansing of White America to the tune of 40+%. :


The related documentation regarding the Jewish orchestration of this genocide of European peoples, in probably the most important book in the last 100 years (Culture of Critique, by professor Kevin MacDonald):


Facts are facts.


It's no coincidence that Simon Black is a Jew. His arguments are obviously absurd, but they provide sufficient talking points for those who advocate the ethnic cleansing of Europeans to continue making noise. What's more disturbing is that "Tyler Durden" apparently advocates the same policies.


What say you, Tyler? Do you support the extinction of White people via mass invasion? Yes or no? Get in the ring.


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 23:47 | 1345866 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

I second that invitation...

There are several folks writing as Tyler Durden at ZH, yes??

I loathe this globalist one...

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 01:35 | 1346052 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Normally you have to look far and wide to find this kind of real top quality horseshit...

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 09:43 | 1346581 Baptiste Say
Baptiste Say's picture

It can only be a genocide is the likes of yourself can't resist knocking up a few $5/hour maids.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:09 | 1347114 Live_Free
Live_Free's picture

El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan has nothing to do with genocide you tool.


"We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks which are justly called for by
our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts. Aztlan belongs to
those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the
foreign Europeans."

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:24 | 1344633 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

in Simons defense...


"but Panama was under the boot of Manuel Noriega 25 years ago"


we are now under Obama's Boot! but he is a panzy, liberal, tree hugger??? that has extended the Patriot Acts Powers well beyond what even the Conservative Bush 2 dreamed of!


1) House and Senate Renew PATRIOT Act With No Modifications
National Security Letters Increasingly Used on Americans
Proposed Senate Bill Would Add Civil Liberties Protections
Senators Raise Concerns on DOJ's Interpretation of PATRIOT

1) House and Senate Renew PATRIOT Act With No Modifications

On May 26, the House and Senate renewed three controversial provisions of law related to the USA PATRIOT Act that were set to expire the next day.  The renewal was passed in the form of an amendment to an unrelated bill, S. 990, that itself temporarily extended authorities of the Small Business Administration.  Despite efforts by individual Senators to introduce modifications to the Act's intelligence authorities, the final bill simply renewed the expiring provisions until June 1, 2015 without changes.


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:32 | 1344661 redpill
redpill's picture

Believe me I'm no fan of where we've wound up.  But we're not to the point of Noriega's Panama (yet), and I've yet to be sufficiently convinced that I should pick up my family and move half way across the world somewhere (Chile is a lot farther than Panama obviously) when the same shit could come down the pike there at any time and with even less of a constitutional precedent to stop it.  At some point you have to stand and fight, I think I'd rather fight for America than somewhere I barely know and have only lived for a few months.


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:16 | 1344854 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

May I recomend... putting the family some place safe.. and then standing up.


That way the things that are really important are safe while you and I re-enact scenes from the Movie Rambo #1!


Yeah! Baby!! or maybe you would prefer Red Dawn? either way!

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:19 | 1344876 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

Off Topic.. Kind of?


New item in your series of interest:

Working Paper No. 11/130: Risky Bank Lending and Optimal Capital Adequacy Regulation Author/Editor: Benes, Jaromir ; Kumhof, Michael Summary: We study the welfare properties of a New Keynesian monetary economy with an essential role for risky bank lending. Banks lend funds deposited by households to a financial accelerator sector, and face penalties for maintaining insufficient net worth. The loan contract specifies an unconditional lending rate, which implies that banks can make loan losses. Their main response is to raise lending rates to rebuild net worth. Prudential rules that adjust minimum capital adequacy requirements in response to loan losses significantly increase welfare. But the gains from eliminating limited liability and moral hazard would be an order of magnitude larger.

Keiser Report: Regime Change in Greece Now! (E152) Talking about the best Countries to live in the World!

Talking about Greece and or other Countries that are getting Crushed by the Organized Bankers! plus he gives a ZeroHedge Shout Out!! Max is GREAT! Tyler's Brother from another Mother!

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 19:52 | 1345225 merehuman
merehuman's picture

I am a german immigrant, came here on august 28 , 1963. Lost green card while awol from army. I have not filed change of address many times. i have at one point bought a shotgun and wrote that i was a citizen. Please find me and deport me.All my attempts to leave the country have been slow, difficult and may yet take another year or 2. Money for airfare is no problem, its the beaurecrazy thats holding things up. meanwhile i am homeless and have yet to apply for any aid as i am too stubborn and believe in selfsufficiency. I am and onemealperdaynow on the utube. i would like to go because the usa government is criminal in nature, run by jews and the sooner you kick me out the sooner i will quit alerting your public to your misdeeds. i have nothing left to lose  except my dog. And by the way.....screw you NSA

ps so right, when nothing left to lose people lose it, my time is coming soon..

shall i say how i really feel? lol


Tue, 06/07/2011 - 08:29 | 1346356 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Be meaningful.

I am Chumbawamba.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:24 | 1344644 zaknick
zaknick's picture

Noriega was on the banksters' CIA payroll since '67. He killed Torrijos with that bomb on his plane. By 1989 he was a liability. He was publicly accusing Bush of drug trafficking with plenty of proof.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:46 | 1344718 Cthonic
Cthonic's picture

For most Americans, the lawfully available 'four flags' ex-pat door mostly shut back in the late 90's.  Sovereign man was either late to the party or hasn't kept track of how far down the boot has come since then.  Very few (maybe 2% of society) have the combination of age, means, and people skills to just pick up and leave their families, friendships, businesses, and citizenship behind for a successful life in another land.  More and more jurisdictions will be strong-armed by the OECD to sign tax treaties and anti-money laundering information sharing agreements that tend to nullify any advantages of merely residing overseas. At least here you can still work to demand that your government become accountable to the People again.  Elsewhere you will be eyed as merely a temporary, and possibly inconvenient, guest.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:46 | 1344963 zuuuueri
zuuuueri's picture


if everyone paid his own way, it would cease to matter where he was from. it's only the deadbeats who will bitch and whine if they had to carry their own weight (and this includes the bureacrats pushing paper in the whole machine that gets invented to control access to the free ride and shake down anyone still productive enough to support it)



Mon, 06/06/2011 - 19:14 | 1345050 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Are you really serious? Arguing that illegal immigration is just a case of bureacratic insensitivity or misunderstanding? That there are no negative ramifications from this unofficial policy?

Hey pal, there are 16 MILLION+ more ILLEGAL immigrants here since Reagan amnestied several million back in the 80's. When is enough, enough?  Press one if you want to hear the rest of this rant in English? Got the extent of the problem yet?

They (illegals) are changing the values/culture and voting patterns of OUR country (even though they aren't supposed to vote).

Go ahead and move down into a neighborhood where MS-13 is the predominant legal authority and see how well your idea that these folks are just misunderstood applies? Why is my tax money being spent policing these useless gangsters?

I have nothing against hispanic descent citizens, they mix in well in small numbers. Their culture is predicated on working hard and they have strong family values as a general rule. However, go into a neighborhood where the predominant population is of a foreign origin (whether that is of hispanic or any other culture) and you will find that assimilation has basically been arrested. You will also find you are unwelcome by the vast majority of folks residing there when you walk down the street (at least that has been the feeling I got). That is what happens when you allow uncontrolled immigration.

People are comfortable with their own culture and way of life, period. Yes, they can and do assimilate, but not when they all gather in large numbers relative to the existing population. Illegal immigrants are not encouraged to assimilate because of bilingual education being offered, press one to speak with a spanish operator, etc. In other words, this is a planned bifurcation of our society.

I don't feel that I need to apologize or give up the culture I grew up in as a white european descent male (yeah, I know I'm bad because I'm personally responsible for the repression of the whole world outside of the U.S.) because a bunch of dogooders have decided that everyone in the world is entitled to come here and suck up our tax resources/jobs. I have as much right to feel comfortable and have a culture that reflects my values and those of my children, without apology, as any other culture/race. I'm the one who pays the taxes, not the freeloaders looking for a cheaper lunch.

I'm not a racist. I just want to preserve and protect the culture I grew up in and give her the best opportunities in life possible. Just like the immigrants band together in like communities because they want to preserve their culture and traditions. You don't see hispanics trying to live in primarily black communities, why? Perhaps because they don't want to get their ass shot by the crips/bloods or perhaps because they don't share their culture/traditions? It isn't because they hate blacks. Humans are tribal. You may not think so now but wait until this society fails and see how people band together (in general terms).

I refuse to feel badly because I want illegal immigration enforced/controlled so that we don't end up with a bifurcated society where my children are endangered because of the cultural differences or are targeted because of skin color. It's bad enough that the fucking morons running this country think it's OK to molest travelers and conduct no-knock warrant services.

This is to say nothing of the resources that illegals steal from other poor citizens like emergency care, food stamps, etc.

We don't need ANY MORE immigrants in this country, legal OR illegal. We don't have the jobs for them and they sure as hell don't add anything to the lives of the citizens already residing here. If you think this is racist or not politically correct, tough shit. 

The fact of the matter is that there are 6+ billion people in this world and if we average out lifestyles then we are ALL living in shacks. No different than if we smoothed out all the land in the world we'd all be underwater. We aren't going to be raising the lifestyles of immigrants as much as we are lowering ours. Fuck that noise, let them stay where they are and let's preserve what we can of the lifestyle we still have left here in the US while we can.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:59 | 1345432 HowardBeale
HowardBeale's picture

Illegal immigration exists for one simple reason--always been the case: Most politicians are property owners; more people equals property development and increased property values. end of story.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:44 | 1345601 swamp
swamp's picture

The article is just more liberal nonsense, illegal is illegal, no nation can be one without borders and control of them, and by the way, a little footnote, it's against our CONSTITUTION.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:04 | 1345254 trav7777
trav7777's picture

He doesn't take into account the massive amounts of services sucked up and crimes committed by this demographic.

Sure, it would be nice if everyone was the same and everyone could move everywhere, but this shit just ain't the way it is.  People are here because all the free cheese is a better life than back home.  Maybe they should change the way back home is instead of trying to turn here into there.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:39 | 1345367 merehuman
merehuman's picture

i have used no free government services since i was in my 20ts, then only foodstamps for 2 months. german work ethic is very strong in me and were my arm not cut up by a crazed druggie i would not have asked for help. been hungry and homeless much, never asked for help, am 60 now and again homeless, aint asken for a damn thing except to be deported.

we are not all the same...its a good thing.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:45 | 1345388 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

"back home" most likely has a bunch of wealthy ex-pats who "downsized" to get the most bang from their bucks, and hire the "locals" to clean their homes, pools, yards, etc.

seriously, what's the difference?  shit's more "global" than anyone wants to admit.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 00:26 | 1345950 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Welfare state or open borders -- pick one, you can't have both!

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 09:42 | 1346576 Baptiste Say
Baptiste Say's picture

Again the concerns you have with SoCal emergency rooms is not so much a problem of "illegals" as it is a problem of the "everyone has a right to healthcare" mentality that allows the USA's most failed state to control and provide hospitals to all.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:12 | 1344595 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Sorry, had to do this.....

Dennis Gartman just said that gold miners will not follow the gold price for the foreseeable future.

I know they have been going the opposite for a while but this is Gartman, he is always perfectly wrong on anything gold.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:21 | 1344632 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Perhaps he realizes that as the finacial world implodes, all miners will be nationalized by desperate regimes looking for wealth to extract in order to fuel the Ponzi yet another day?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:33 | 1344671 zaknick
zaknick's picture

In Ecuador the gov has frozen development on many international mining companies like Kinross. They have created a new national mining company. Last month they dinamited about a hundred excavators which were ilegally extracting placer gold. They are training artesanal and small miners, are requiring them to sell their gold to the central bank (not independent or BIS bankster) and are regulating gold dealers.

It's here, baby!

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:49 | 1344735 Cthonic
Cthonic's picture

Wow, appreciate your posting.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:38 | 1344934 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

This is not some new development. These third world governments, even some of the socialist ones, have learned this lesson before. They know that as soon as they are hard on the mining industry, the industry dissapears.

As for Kinross. The Russian soverign wealth fund has money in Kinross and so does Paulson and Co. Kinross has had a horrible run the last few quaters but in the long run, I am comfortable with fellow shareholders as John Paulson and Vladmir Putin.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:16 | 1345505 lawrence1
lawrence1's picture

I believe, too, that Corea who, by the way, has an MA in Economics from a US University, has talked about a gold standard at some point.  When I visited Ecuador last year and asked everyone I met what they thought of their president, the great majority regarded him overall in a positive way.  I gathered he has done things for most sectors of the economy, from the poor to the elites who own large agri businesses.  A rare concept, a government which represents most segments of society.  In the US there is a knee-jerk reaction to  even moderate socialists like Corea because most Americans dont know shit and dont care to know shit about anything outside their fascist corporate kleptocracy. Would appreciate references to any recent news about Ecuador.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:30 | 1344906 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

In some ways, as you explain it, I agree 100%. Not only nationalised but allot of miners have lots of financing with the banks. That is why FOFOA only goes physical.

But there is always the chance that miners will be the next grand bull market bubble before any of that^ happens.

And this is Gartman speaking.


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:26 | 1344647 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

So you're saying buy GDXJ? Already did.


What's with people talkin' about gold these days?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:39 | 1344680 Monedas
Monedas's picture

95% of the worlds crude production is govmint owned and the remaining 5% might as well be for taxes and regulations ! PM miners have a leverage appeal that is over priced in and the stock holder's suck hind tit ! All mines will be nationalized or windfall taxed and regulated to death in the future except for fringe exploratory areas in remote areas ! Stock holder's will suck hind tit as always due to government and corporate management shenanagins ! All I am saying is buy physical ! There could be some spectacular trading if the metals suddenly took off....but in the long run they won't let the stock holders win too much ! Sorry to be so pessimistic ! Hoarding will have it's challenges too ! I'm starting to think more and more like a survivalist ! It will buy you some time and you have a chance to go down fighting ! Monedas 2011 When they come for ya....make 'em pay !

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:14 | 1344598 Ancona
Ancona's picture

Illegal aliens are criminals. Period. If your first act is to break our immigration laws, why should you be given one ounce of defference?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:30 | 1344663 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Because laws are merely the decree of a small minority of persons (many long dead), and have no moral bearing on anything, being nothing but the force of mob-rule?

If your first act is to aggress upon an otherwise peaceful person, why should your laws be given one ounce of deference? Immigration (or migration, really) is best handled by private property rights, and voluntary cooperation. As for public property, it is all stolen land, and thus there are no rights to recognize. All in all, a voluntary (non-statist) system makes the topic of immigration a moot point.

Have you ever stood on a border and thought about the absurdity of the concept that you can't take another step onto land identical to the land you're on, except for it's political jurisdiction?

People are meant to be free. Anything short of that is a form of enslavement.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:34 | 1344676 redpill
redpill's picture

If the government didn't exercise force and steal wealth from the legal citizens to support services for illegal ones, open borders really wouldn't be an issue.

But we aren't allowed to have that sort of free exchange, we are always encumbered by government force, so as long as that remains the case, this antagonism will always remain.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:43 | 1344695 SMG
SMG's picture


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:54 | 1344762 bigdawg
bigdawg's picture

Amen Not Applicable & redpill.  The only reason why people in the US really give a fuck about "illegal immigration" is because our government's welfare system that began in the '30's.  If you didn't have to pay for the immigrants, I imagine you wouldn't care if they were here or not.

BTW, Not Applicable, your analogy about the absurdity of the difference between standing on one side of a border vs. the other is spot on. 

Unfortunately, those in govt. who would like to expand our welfare system, also come to the same conclusion.  As long as we have these types of programs, we will have this type of problem.  Only a free market would work.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:57 | 1344790 redpill
redpill's picture

And you'll note worldwide, the countries that do have substantial social safety nets and yet manage to remain fiscally sound are typically ones that have either 1) very strict immigration law, or 2) are geographically removed from sources of illegal immigration.


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 19:15 | 1345069 Barb Dwire
Barb Dwire's picture

Really? Canada is probably one of the more financially sound countries and they have quite liberal immigration laws, as well as accepting one of the higher per capita number of refugees. In fact they are aggressively encouraging immigration.


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:13 | 1345281 trav7777
trav7777's picture

wait 30 years.  Or in the meantime, look into their demographics.

latin america is the way it is because of latin americans.  Africa is the way it is because of africans.  Canada is the way it is because of canadians.  Start mixing that shit around and things change.

Most N. European countries, Germany included, are coming to the conclusion that their 3rd world immigration encouragement policies are an unmitigated disaster.

Wed, 06/08/2011 - 04:10 | 1345589 laughing_swordfish
laughing_swordfish's picture

Yes, Canada does encourage legal immigration, but not the same types of immigrants as we do.

Canada is competing for bright, highly educated people from all over the world who have the potential to add to their society. If you have a PhD. in almost any useful discipline or a Master's degree in, say, engineering you are in.

Another way into Canada is to come with Cash - half the entrepreneurial class of Hong Kong has already migrated and only goes back across the pond to do business while their families reside in Canada. Canada is not only safer and freer, but cheaper than HK - just compare real estate prices, even allowing for the Vancouver bubble.

The US, on the other hand, actively discourages this kind of immigration while extending a welcoming hand to the poorest and least educated, particularly from Mexico. Once this lumpenproletariat reproduces with "anchor babies" that are born US citizens, they are impossible to dislodge on grounds of "humanitarianism" and "family unity".

Illegal immigrants are the human equivalent of invasive animal species that come here and find they have no native predators to keep their numbers in check. And it's no use trying to get a political solution - the Democrats want a poor, easily led herd of bloc votes, and Republicans like "sovereign man" want cheap, easily exploited labor that lowers wages, living standards and working conditions for everyone else.

The only solution is for native citizens to go Rwandan or Serbo-Croatian on these people. That just might get the tide flowing in the other direction. And if the "ethnic cleansing" ( a necessary step in the development ofa nationally and ethnically conscious people) takes out a few sob-sisters and do-gooders as well, so much the better.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:06 | 1345268 trav7777
trav7777's picture'd care when you had to move out of where you'd called home because of an influx of people whose perception of civilized behavior differs from yours by a giant chasm.

there is a REASON populations self-segregate.

Capitalists, the kind you guys love to hate on, particularly like cheap squalid immigrants for their sweatshops

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:08 | 1345264 trav7777
trav7777's picture

oh criminy, STFU.

I don't want to live in Mexico...because it sucks.  The fewer people we have trying to turn us INTO Mexico, the better.  I don't want to live in Detroit either.

You need to study things like the black undertow all over America and how various suburbs and counties rise and fall with the migrations of people into and out of them.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 13:42 | 1347459 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture

A hilarious website:

Be warned - the site is racist. If you are offended by this type of thing don’t go there.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:03 | 1344810 zaknick
zaknick's picture

by Ancona 
on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:14

Illegal aliens are criminals. Period. If your first act is to break our immigration laws, why should you be given one ounce of defference?

You think NAFTA was bad for the US? Take a look at what the banksters did to Mexico. AND they left the border open. I think they have always wanted to flood the US with people who were not part of the traditional electorate in order to help suppress the only nation's voice which can bring them down. They also inflate GDP while outsourcing 50k factories.

Here, get some wisdom, "Ancona" (how vaccuos an avatar).

I don't know why I waste my time with you zombies.

Bankster Matrix zombies (and pretentious ones at that).

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:39 | 1344936 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

this article makes some leaping assumptions/accusations with little fact to back it up so why should I believe it?


For example:  

In 2006, millions of Mexican voters were once again denied their electoral victory: The last best hope for a peaceful transformation was dashed. Backed by the US Administration, Felipe Calderon stole the election and proceeded to launch the “War on Drug Traffickers” strategy dictated by Washington.


ok does the author know this?  where is the proof?  maybe he is right maybe he is wrong but he makes no attempt prove it.



Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:50 | 1345604 swamp
swamp's picture

Illegals are criminals, because they are ILLEGAL.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:07 | 1344833 stirners_ghost
stirners_ghost's picture

Yes, they are criminals--bless their hearts.

Is there anything more terrifying than a good citizen, in these times?

"If you see something, say something."

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:18 | 1344621 zaknick
zaknick's picture


Societies which don't protect their internal markets end up like the US.

Keep on believing that globalization bs and revolution here we come!

It was always a cover for bankster KKK empire.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:36 | 1344669 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

 The Commerce Department said inflation-adjusted exports of goods and services grew at a 9.2 percent annual pace in the first quarter.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:38 | 1344698 zaknick
zaknick's picture


Let me break it down for you once more, troglodyte.

Small businesses have always been the backbone of any thriving middle class and favorable labor markets for all citizens regardless of skill level.

You keep on swilling that bankster pee, boy.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:46 | 1344965 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

ya.. but! you are forgeting that America is over developed and that we need to buck up and shrink our foot print..


John Holdren: White House Malthusian

by Robert Bradley Jr.
March 3, 2011

If there is one quotation by Obama’s new science advisor that every American should hear, it is this:


“A massive campaign must be launched to restore a high-quality environment in North America and to de-develop the United States. . . . Resources and energy must be diverted from frivolous and wasteful uses in overdeveloped countries to filling the genuine needs of underdeveloped countries. This effort must be largely political” (italics added).

- John Holdren, Anne Ehrlich, and Paul Ehrlich, Human Ecology: Problems and Solutions (San Francisco; W.H. Freeman and Company, 1973), p. 279.


Holdren’s deep-seated belief of the human “predicament” as a zero-sum game–America must lose for other countries to win–was also stated by him two years before:


“Only one rational path is open to us—simultaneous de-development of the [overdeveloped countries] and semi-development of the underdeveloped countries (UDC’s), in order to approach a decent and ecologically sustainable standard of living for all in between. By de-development we mean lower per-capita energy consumption, fewer gadgets, and the abolition of planned obsolescence.”

- John Holdren and Paul Ehrlich, “Introduction,” in Holdren and Ehrlich, eds., Global Ecology, 1971, p. 3.


Holdren and the Ehrlichs paid homage to the gloomy worldview of Thomas Robert Malthus, who saw “misery or vice” as the necessary equalizer between growing population and the means of subsistence in An Essay on the Principle of Population (1798): 


“We find ourselves firmly in the neo-Malthusian camp. We hold this view not because we believe the world to be running out of materials in an absolute sense, but rather because the barriers to continued material growth, in the form of problems of economics, logistics, management, and environmental impact, are so formidable.”

- Paul Ehrlich, Anne Ehrlich, and John Holdren, Ecoscience: Population, Resources, and Environment (San Francisco: W. H. Freeman and Company, 1977), p. 954.


Holdren and Paul Ehrlich put their anti-growth philosophy into a mathematical equation, I=PAT, where a negative environmental impact was linked to any combination of population growth, increasing affluence, and improving technology. This “gloomy prognosis” required, according to the three:


“organized evasive action: population control, limitation of material consumption, redistribution of wealth, transitions to technologies that are environmentally and socially less disruptive than today’s, and movement toward some kind of world government” (1977: p. 5).


John is Obama's head of science and tech.. he is our leader into the future!

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:13 | 1345293 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Fuck him....the developing world is a mess because of the people there.  Who was it who recently said Africa is becoming the spoilt child of the world?

NOTHING can be done in a nation where the average IQ is below 90.  It's just not feasible for the population to grasp.

If these guys are preaching eugenics as a measure to rectify that, then I pretty much agree with them.  There aren't other options.  We can hand over a turnkey country like Rhodesia or S. Africa and see it destroyed within a generation.  Or we can accept reality.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:24 | 1344895 Cthonic
Cthonic's picture
March exports were $7.7 billion more than February exports of $165.0 billion. March imports were $10.4 billion more than February imports of $210.4 billion.

So exports are growing less than imports on an absolute basis, and thus the trade deficit continues to widen.  Your point was?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:20 | 1344625 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

'Here Ye, here ye'  Notice the decending Capitialism?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:21 | 1344634 blackchips
blackchips's picture

This guy must be part of the Soros 'open borders' cult.  Just what we need---another one of THOSE.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:23 | 1344641 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Does the Rat live in the WIG, or does he store some Peanut Butter behind the ( LYING BUCK tooth?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:17 | 1345295 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Soros is part of the clan that doesn't want any such thing for their "homeland."

Where is MY right of return?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:26 | 1344639 Ryman1075
Ryman1075's picture which other countries could I move to where I can:

Not learn the language

Not work and get "free Money" to feed my family

Get a drivers license

Have my kids go to school for free and gain admission to special classes for people that don't speak the language.

Get free health care...

This country was built on immigrants coming in the right way and is being destroyed by those coming in illegally.  I don't even want to hear that these illegals are doing jobs that Americans don't want.  When you have thousands of people applying for a few jobs at McDonalds and record unemployment, it doesn't hold up.

What other countries can I move to, break the law (hence the Illegal part) and be rewarded for it?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:38 | 1344683 BigJim
BigJim's picture

That's his point. Free money and free health care shouldn't be available.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:45 | 1344708 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

All of them. (assuming you can get a government job, that is)

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:58 | 1344781 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

Nobody's talking about McDonalds.  How many Americans would go pick lettuce?  Dig ditches?  Stand outside a Home Depot in the blazing sun to do any menial job that someone's willing to pay for?  When I see crowds of white guys standing around the Home Depot parking lot or the U-Haul parking lot ready to take a pittance for a day's labor, I'll believe that immigrants are "stealing our jobs."

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:15 | 1345298 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Have you ever seen crowds of BLACK guys doing that?

STFU then, bitch. 

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:01 | 1345453 NuckingFuts
NuckingFuts's picture

I was out in the field TODAY in the high 90's picking lettuce, cabbage, etc.. with 5 of my employees.  All of European decent.  Just because your kids won't do that kind of work doesn't mean others find themselves above it.  And I have stood out side a gas station waiting for pick-up landscaping jobs when I was in college with guess who? ALL white folks.  Some of us are still willing work.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:07 | 1345468 NuckingFuts
NuckingFuts's picture

I can't believe I just posted a reply almost agreeing with Trav.  But I did.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:09 | 1345475 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

I think supply and demand apply to the examples you gave.  If there weren't so many illegals willing to do those jobs for peanuts, then those jobs would pay enough to attract Americans to do them.

And yes, in that case I would be more than willing to pay another $ for a head of lettuce.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 22:09 | 1345663 sherryw
sherryw's picture


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 22:49 | 1345767 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

I thought I asked you if you were hawt or Not?!


you answer my question I will help you with yours. be prepared to back up whatever you say.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:31 | 1344643 Alcoholic Nativ...
Alcoholic Native American's picture

Yes, let us blame the foreigners.  After all the Al-Qaeda scapegoat doesn't always work.  Pay no attention to the people buying up all the land and infrastructure, lobbying to sell of public land and buildings to pay off foreign debts and such that they so generiously gave to us.  Soon these foreigners will be setting up Sharia (Arabic for law) and demanding a rule of law!  Blasphemy!


This reeks of the propaganda about Democracy I have been seeing on zerohedge lately.   Catering to retards.  Our sovereign countries are being hijacked by pennyless foreigners! please absurdly rich foreigners, Do something! Before it's too late!

Zerohedge like wikileaks, will eventually be compromised.  

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:45 | 1344722 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Highly unlikely! Z/H has something most Politicians and governments don't.   You're dying to ask?  Fire away!

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:26 | 1344649 paulbain
paulbain's picture

Simon Half wrote:


One of the chief arguments against free immigration is that old song about “stealing jobs.” It amazes me that some people still believe this.

When you patrol borders and restrict the flow of people who are happy to work hard for less money, this is really no different than wage and price controls. Anyone with even the most basic understanding of economics can realize that such practices build inefficiencies into the system



Tyler Durden,


You have the right to publish this sort of rubbish on your website, ZeroHedge (ZH). If you continue to do so, however, then I shall cease to recommend ZH to others. The above passage is stark poppycock, nothing less. I have been unemployed for 32 out of the last 36 months, and I have had enough. I want my job back -- NOW!!


-- Paul D. Bain


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:37 | 1344673 IdioTsincracY
IdioTsincracY's picture

Of course you want 'your' job back ...

how about a  different one?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:41 | 1344674 BigJim
BigJim's picture

If it's 'your' job, how did you lose it?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:23 | 1345538 hbjork1
hbjork1's picture

The heAd of the company, with his board of toadies, 10 years ago, got the company in hock beyand their capacity to earn it's way out.  The management had to cut everwhere to increase profitably form 20% to 40% for his division.  It hurts the company ub the long run, of course but we have to get the management team through the financial crisis.

Management hates to to do this but we must keep the loyal key players.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:45 | 1344732 rodocostarica
rodocostarica's picture

Hey Paulbain, you can have any job you want. Want to roof houses? How about wash dishes or do landscape work. The illegals do all this becuase Amricans are basically too lazy to do it.Get out there on the street with a sign I WANT A JOB.

SOmeone will hire you




Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:55 | 1344769 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Golf Clap


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:59 | 1344784 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:46 | 1344978 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

yep and then they get food stamps for their kids, claim 8 dependents so no fed income tax comes from their paycheck.  Apply for a T.I.N.(Tax Indentification Number).... for those who don't know a TIN  allows an illegal working under a false ss# to file their taxes at the end of the year. they  file their taxes at the end of the year and get $8000 back from the govenrment in earned income credit on top of not paying any taxes in to begin with(income tax) even though they are here illegally.  Then they go to the hospital emergency room under a pseudonym and never pay the bill.  They buy some one elses id and social security number(called indentity theft) and cause major problems for the truthful owner.....shall I go on?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:17 | 1345306 trav7777
trav7777's picture

you fucking idiot.

Yeah, they want to hire someone to do something dangerous, where if they get hurt, they are disposible.

Oligarch bootlickers like you should STFU

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 00:38 | 1345966 IQ 101
IQ 101's picture

BS Tico, I and many other white folk have picked potatoes from the ground,

Europe is frozen half the year, unlike Mango land,

How do you think whitey got so smart and tough?

Breeding through hard times.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:49 | 1344738 Monedas
Monedas's picture

How about starting a business and providing work for others and making a payroll ? Then have Idi-O-Bama tax you out of business !

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:09 | 1344823 Raynja
Raynja's picture

so your blaming someone who left there family behind and trekked hundreds of miles across a dangerous desert? maybe if you tried a little harder or were more willing to take  a shit job WE wouldn't be supporting YOU thru unemployment.  Blaming immigrants, legal or illegal, for our economic problems is like getting an F in a class and telling the professor he should extend the curve to include you.  No one is stealing American jobs, lazy/ignorant americans are giving them away and acting shocked when they are all gone.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:28 | 1345329 trav7777
trav7777's picture

GFD you people are stupid.

Illegals are exploited by capitalists and fed by socialists all to the detriment of YOU and everyone else.

Find me someone in favor of illegal immigration and you've found me a bootlicker for the oligarchs

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:16 | 1345508 NuckingFuts
NuckingFuts's picture


wouldn't have thought I would be doing this, but +1

Illegals are exploited by capitalists and fed by socialists all to the detriment of YOU and everyone else.

I could hire illegals for my business much cheaper, they would probably kick ass and I would make more profit.  But guess what?  IT'S WRONG and profit is not worth selling my soul for.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 00:25 | 1345940 phyuckyiu
phyuckyiu's picture

It is odd being on the same side of an argument with Trav. "There's hope for him yet!" (He probably says the same for us).

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 22:10 | 1345655 sherryw
sherryw's picture


........or a bleeding heart with a woolly brain. 

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 07:47 | 1346280 MadeOfQuarks
MadeOfQuarks's picture

Look, the problem is people aren't willing to pay you what you request for whatever it is you do. If someone could squeeze a profit out of hiring you they would, but the fact is us westerners want to buy stuff cheap and sell our time expensive and somewhere along the line that doesn't add up unless we get really, really productive. Add to that the fact that government takes about 40% of our productivity and you have your problem right there. It's called not being able to have your cake and eating it.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:30 | 1344650 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

simon half? 

what did they do with simon black?

sovereign avatarZ.

OT:  l@@ks like the crimex may fall below  100 mil oz silver this week.  DJ Comex Gold And Silver Warehouse Stocks-Jun 6

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:16 | 1344770 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Sovereign Alcatraz . Up-date. Piranha for dinner is pretty good!

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:28 | 1344657 naughtius maximus
naughtius maximus's picture

"When you patrol borders and restrict the flow of people who are happy to work hard for less money, this is really no different than wage and price controls. Anyone with even the most basic understanding of economics can realize that such practices build inefficiencies into the system– companies who pay more for labor pass these costs on to consumers, low skill workers have less competition (hence incentive) to learn new skills and move up the labor food chain."

You could say the same thing about globalism and be just as wrong. 

For instance

"When you enable terrifs you prevent mega corporations from farming out your job to some turd worlder in bunkunkistan. This means that the stuff you used to make, and get paid for making it, is now much cheaper. So even though you have no job, no money, and no future, if you wanted to buy something, well it would be cheaper for you to do it."

You know what? Fuck your efficiency. A machine gun is efficient at killing unarmed people. Unregulated finance is efficient at defrauding millions. 

There is more to life than money, dude. Have some respect for the people who pay the bills around here. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances, we guard you while you sleep. Do not fuck with us.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:35 | 1344685 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

you do get a +1 for working in a Fight Club reference.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:47 | 1344744 BigJim
BigJim's picture

When you enable tariffs you encourage foreign countries to do the same, thereby promoting less mass production and less competition, pushing up the costs of production with the end result that we're all poorer. One of the major reasons the US economy collapsed in the 30's is because the US went all protectionist (check out Smoot-Hawley)

The average US worker isn't poor now because of outsourcing. The average US worker is poor now because his country spends a fortune on warfare; because his employment is over-regulated; because his unions have pushed the costs of employing him to unrealistic levels; because the USDs reserve status (try researching the petrodollar) makes the US currency artificially strong; and because his housing costs have rocketed due to lax monetary policy.

Outsourcing is the symptom of US workers' unemployability, not the cause..

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:05 | 1344817 naughtius maximus
naughtius maximus's picture

Are you kidding? Our manufacturing base is decimated. There are NO EXPORTS to protect. Germany has powerful unions and they are doing just fine, and yes they have terrifs. Things all went to hell in a hand basket right after NAFTA was passed and China given favored nation status. This is not a coinsidence. We are not unemployale. We are simply butt fucked by corporations lobbying congress to make it easy and cheaper to make our goods in China. Unemployable? Bullshit. Americans are some of the most educated people on earth and we have the slave debts to prove it. 

Terrifs are not "protectionist". A hundred years ago most of the federal government was financed with terrifs. 

Sorry if this shocks you out of your Ayn Rand delusions. Get bend dude.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:42 | 1344908 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Yes, US industry has indeed been decimated, because the US cannot compete. Once China started turning away from communism, the high governmental overheads on US industry meant the writing was on the wall.

German industry and workers are not being crippled by having to pay for a vast military empire. The Euro is not artificially high because the rest of the world have to buy 1.2 trillion of them to purchase crude oil. As for German housing... check out:

Did you actually read my post?

And I don't know about 'terrifs', but tariffs are the very essence of protectionism.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 17:21 | 1348496 naughtius maximus
naughtius maximus's picture

I read your post. "Yes, US industry has indeed been decimated, because the US cannot compete."

You evidently didn't read mine. We can compete. We did compete. Ever since NAFTA our standard of living has declined. This is a fact. You don't care because you don't earn a living. You are probably a banker parasite yourself. 

"And I don't know about 'terrifs', but tariffs are the very essence of protectionism."

Well aren't you special!

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:50 | 1344760 BigJim
BigJim's picture

And as for having 'some respect for the people who pay the bills around here. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances, we guard you while you sleep' - well, that would be a lot easier if they didn't keep voting in people who promised them a free lunch at everyone else's expense.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:10 | 1344839 naughtius maximus
naughtius maximus's picture

We are given no choices but the ones they present. We don't live in a republic, democracy, or consitutional monarcy. We live in a oligarcial plutocracy. No matter who is elected we will get the same results. The same greasy hand up some different puppet this year. Food stamps are not bringing the country to ruin. Its the deregulation of the financial industry. Tell me how is giving 700 billiion dollars of our money to the very people that caused this fucking mess comparable to spending a few billion on food stamps. People wouldn't need the damned things if they had a chance economically. There ARE NO JOBS that pay a living wage for familys. 

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:36 | 1344940 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Yes, and unless a significant proportion of US citizens start realizing that the people they vote for are destroying them, it will continue.

Voting in more socialism, warfarism, and protectionism, will only make matters worse, not better.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 17:20 | 1348512 naughtius maximus
naughtius maximus's picture

You will never see any significant change because the oligarchial plutocracy owns all television broadcasting. We will never be able to compete with that fantastic propaganda machine. Any serious canidate that goes against the status quo will be ridiculed by the talking heads. People are too stupid to ignore them.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:00 | 1344791 Greeny
Greeny's picture

I have bud, licensed

Electrician in NY, who after paying
taxes for 21! Years facing a deportation and he is in the
immigration prison right now, as I type this.
His small business employed
5-10 people.. More importantly he comes from the USSR and doesn't
have any Citizenship at this time.. Now tell me, why people around the
world who did nothing for the USA playing green card lottery,
and hardworking professionals who actually paid 6 figures
to the uncle Sam in 21 years facing deportation?
This is something very wrong with all this.

WOW, cannot believe this, he just called me from Louisiana.

Immigration Prisons are full on the East Coast..

Why not just attach some electronic device

for such people instead of paying $120/day to keep them in

the cell, he never broke any law.. That's where taxpayers money

been wasted.




Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:04 | 1344813 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Why did he not clear this issue up over the last 21 years ... ? 

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:22 | 1344881 Greeny
Greeny's picture

There is many things what could be go wrong, one is the bad

lawyer (very important) and secondly simple luck, third we told him

to get merrit at least, but he didn't for some reason..

Don't know now, if nobody will accept him back to old USSR,

then they should release him, cause nowhere to departate,

native country doesn't exists (that's what my lawyer says).



Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:15 | 1344865 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Actually, unregulated finance is also efficient at killing millions. 

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:35 | 1344667 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Nice article, Simon. But I doubt you'll get much appreciation from our supposed 'free market' advocates.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:45 | 1344723 redpill
redpill's picture

America is not a free market.  If it were, open borders wouldn't be a problem.  

As it is, the local school district would love nothing more than to send my little girl to a school where 80% of the kids don't speak English, don't want to learn, come from households where education is downplayed in importance, and care more about having the right gang tat than what they scored on their math test.  

Suddenly the idealized world casually conjured by a single, wealthy, playboy jet setter who is probably too selfish to ever have a stable wife (much less kids) becomes much different when you have to deal with the reality of the scared look in a little girl's eyes when she thinks she might get shot at school one of these days.

Some folks have the financial resources to seek alternatives, others don't.  And the kids don't really care whether the market is free or not when reality is much more stark.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:59 | 1344798 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

Ad hominem attacks /= valid argument.  Plus, your argument is more one against government schools than immigration.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:11 | 1344846 redpill
redpill's picture

The ad hominem attacks were a useful sidebar, and not central to the argument.  I don't think Simon needs your defense, he can defend himself just fine.  However, keep in mind there's a reason he uses an alias.


Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:02 | 1344799 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Simon's point is exactly that - that the problems arising from 'illegal immigration' are actually the result of one of the major destroyers of America - socialism. If you weren't being forced to pay for public schooling via taxes, then i) you could afford to send your child to a school of your liking, and ii)  the people who come to America who won't learn English wouldn't come to America in the first place, because if they refused to learn English, they and their children would starve to death.

Of course, if the government hadn't made drugs so profitable via its disastrous 'War on Drugs', then the gangs wouldn't be a problem, either.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:18 | 1344873 redpill
redpill's picture

That's all true, but there's no point in even discussing the plight of illegal immigrants until these other issues are addressed first.  Of course it's absurd to throw these people in jail, they should just be deported.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 19:23 | 1345102 Mashuri
Mashuri's picture

Why focus on symptoms instead the cause?  Deporting all illegals is impossible.  I'd rather focus on eliminating the welfare state -- or let it continue on its unsustainable path to implosion.  The same thing will happen if you expand the police state anyway, but the resulting path will suck even more for everyone but the elite class.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:30 | 1345340 trav7777
trav7777's picture

hispanics would still have unacceptably high violence rates for most whites to find tolerable.

It's as fucking simple as that.  And you can't run a functioning, modern society with that type of stock.  Period, point blank.  All the developed countries are the way they are because of the people who have populated them.  And the undeveloped countries the same.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 21:47 | 1345609 BigJim
BigJim's picture

That's interesting. My experience of Spanish people is that they are considerably less violent than the British.

Or do Spanish not count as Hispanics? Or British as Whites?

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:37 | 1344672 realitybiter
realitybiter's picture


You clearly have never paid $2,000 a month (tax) for a public school in and English speaking country that was over ran by new ELL's (english language learners).  I don't care if the lawn guy does it for free.  It is a crappy deal.  I have to pay my tax and private tuitiontoo, because the school sucks.  To add insult to injury, the very same ELL's show very little interest in pulling themselves up and end up dropping out by the 9th or 10th grade.  Your analysis completely disregards my boots on the ground report from the frontline.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:38 | 1344682 RF
RF's picture

Article 1, Section 8, of the United States Constitution gives congress the power "To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization...", presumably with good intentions, although intelligent minds may differ on that part. Rules regarding immigration are the law and, until they are decided to be unconstitutional, they are to be obeyed/enforced in toto. No underlying ethical considerations are required or necessary; however, for one, consider the consequences on the environment and quality of life in this country if the immigration free-for-all the author seems to be advocating is allowed to exist. I am sure others can add to the list.


Best regards,                                                                                                               RF

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:40 | 1344688 Alcoholic Nativ...
Alcoholic Native American's picture

Zerohedge has been compromised just like wikileaks,  Fuck you Tyler(s).  Sell out bitches.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:44 | 1344727 IdioTsincracY
IdioTsincracY's picture

Drunkie... take it easy.

Fist this is a guest post ....

second Tyler knows how to choose topics that can spur a discussion. ...

image how boring it would be to post something followed by a long line of +1

C'mon ... detox!?!

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 00:29 | 1345952 phyuckyiu
phyuckyiu's picture

Agree with the Idiot, Tyler is bringing over an article from a website he quotes frequently, that sometimes covers topics that get people riled (50$ silver top definitely pissed some people off). For other people its Simon suggesting you renounce citizenship that pisses them off. definitely starts some conversations. You should be thanking Tyler for exposing you to things you don't agree with, since you seem like the type that would agree with the renouncing citizenship article Simon wrote a few months ago that was posted on ZH. Stop looking for 100% confirmation of your beliefs.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:37 | 1344690 realitybiter
realitybiter's picture

BTW, before the xenophobe comments start ripping, this seems to be a "Mexican" issue.  The Chinese, Japanese, and Indian immigrants tend to kick academic ass and need no english assistance.  Latinophobe?  Nah, my experience with Spaniards has been very good.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:58 | 1344795 goodrich4bk
goodrich4bk's picture

It is a Mexican and Guatamalen and Nicaraguan problem because most of these immigrants don't want to be here except for the work.  Most intend to retire in their own country after building a house there with the dollars they remit from their wages.

Several years ago two men installed windows in our home.  They were both employed by a local contractor.  The foreman was Mexican and his helper was a white kid from Sonoma county.  The foreman told me he was planning to work for another six years and retire to his small town 5 miles from the Pacific ocean.  He said his two was a lot friendlier and safer than San Rafael, CA

He was 35.

So for all you dreamers who believe that Mexicans are just "harder working" or "willing to do jobs Americans will not", please note the difference in the VALUE of the wages these two men were paid.  The foreman, a Mexican citizen, was paid a wage that allowed him to retire to a house near the beach by the age of 41.  The helper, a U.S. citizen, was paid a wage that would not allow him to buy a house EVER unless it was in another state and was on wheels.

For the life of me I don't see why Democrats, the party of labor, can't get any of this.  And why the Tea Partiers don't demand that their rich conservative sponsors back E-file and other simple tools to end the employment of undocumented workers. 

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:05 | 1344819 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

The so-called "simple tools" are a back door to domestic tyranny.  "Controlling the borders" means the Feds have unrestricted power to stop the flow of people and money out as well as in.  Don't like our current red/blue tyranny?  Our masters would love it if they could stop you from leaving.  "Controlling the borders" means a national ID card so the cops (who would never abuse their vast authority) can check your papers whenever and wherever they please.  It means that a disfavored businessperson, maybe one who makes trouble for the city council or competes with a political favorite, can get arrested and face life in prison if just one of their employees had bad paperwork.  It means that you, Mr. Native Born American, will be denied a job if there is an error in the ICE I-Verify database, and it's well known that POS has a 10% error rate.  It means dragnet warrantless searches for "illegals."  I'll take immigrants rather than the fascist police state it requires to keep them out.

I love the Pauls and respect their contributions to liberty (Ron in particular), but this is a blind spot they and many other on the right share.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:35 | 1345354 trav7777
trav7777's picture

you're an idiot.

nations without national ID cards and all of this shit have harsher immigration controls than we employ.

I'll take rule of law, please.  Not your false dilemma bullshit

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 00:51 | 1345978 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Welfare state or open borders -- pick one, you can't have BOTH!

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:08 | 1344838 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

>>So for all you dreamers who believe that Mexicans are just "harder working" or "willing to do jobs Americans will not", please note the difference in the VALUE of the wages these two men were paid.  The foreman, a Mexican citizen, was paid a wage that allowed him to retire to a house near the beach by the age of 41.  The helper, a U.S. citizen, was paid a wage that would not allow him to buy a house EVER unless it was in another state and was on wheels.<<

I guess I don't understand your point.  I thought you were arguing the other way.  The Mexican was willing to make a sacrifice of moving away from his home and family to where he could maximize his earnings, in order to live well the rest of his life - thereby demonstrating a low time preference and the discipline to save for the future.  His US helper would also, by your own argument, have to move away from (highly-overrated) San Rafael in order to have a house.  So why didn't he?  He would just have to move to a different state, rather than cross a border to a different country and different culture.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:12 | 1344853 goodrich4bk
goodrich4bk's picture

Am I to assume, then, that you would have no problem if your employer ships in a non-citizen to do your job for half of what you are being paid?  After all, you just need to move to another state.

Your arrogance is breathtaking.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 19:25 | 1345109 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

The breathtaking thing is your ignorance.  The point of my argument is that the original poster whined that a menial laborer would have to move states in order to obtain a certain standard of living, while his Mexican boss had already sacrificed far more for the same thing.  If you are being willfully ignorant to make a point, I guess that's one thing, and to be charitable I guess that's what I'll assume.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 08:44 | 1346394 Welfareisfraud
Welfareisfraud's picture

"Am I to assume, then, that you would have no problem if your employer ships in a non-citizen to do your job for half of what you are being paid? After all, you just need to move to another state. Your arrogance is breathtaking."


Hurr durr derpa derp derp.


Who is arrogant here? The one who assumes that utterly arbitrary "citizenship" (the sister of the quasi-religious, bankrupt concept of "nationhood") entitles you to some fixed higher salary, or the person who admits that said non-citizen might just be a better value proposition for their employer and that they need to up their ante or look elsewhere for work? Guess which shows greater "arrogance". But you're "entitled" to your arbitrarily high paying job, I guess.



Mon, 06/06/2011 - 18:12 | 1344855 goodrich4bk
goodrich4bk's picture

Am I to assume, then, that you would have no problem if your employer ships in a non-citizen to do your job for half of what you are being paid?  After all, you just need to move to another state.

Your arrogance is breathtaking.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:40 | 1344702 IdioTsincracY
IdioTsincracY's picture

I am not against immigration at all, I actually think that nations are enriched by what immigrants contribute in terms of culture, talents, skills, work, etc... However:

1) A Nation has the responsibility to enforce its borders.

2) Illegal/undocumented immigrants skip the process that many other go through. How much would you hate if you were stuck in a line as everybody jumps ahead of you?

3) It is not fair (and illegal) to undercut your competition by using undocumented workers.

These are values that should easily be accepted by everybody.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:48 | 1344730 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

Illegal/undocumented immigrants skip the process that many other go through. How much would you hate if you were stuck in a line as everybody jumps ahead of you?

Not to mention the I-130 and I-485 fees.  $2k after everything is said and done.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:55 | 1344765 IdioTsincracY
IdioTsincracY's picture

That is correct!

If the discussion centered around the three points I listed, there would not be any discussion.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 20:38 | 1345363 trav7777
trav7777's picture

nations aren't enriched by virtue of immigrants.

You are ASSUMING that the immigrants always have a constructive contribution..what if they don't?  What if they are like Europe's North African immigrants who seem hell bent on turning the place into Europistan?  IOW, transforming it into where they just came from?

Perhaps they think the white people will continue to provide them first-class infrastructure while they take a shit all over everything.

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:43 | 1344721 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

I don't know mate. I really liked your series on living and working anywhere, but the thought of legalizing all migration is ignoring the concept of nationhood and sovereignty. Perhaps that's a good thing. Those of us who travel widely sometimes think of ourselves as the cliched "Citizen of the world", and shy away from thinking too provincially, but we each have homes to go to, we each have our niche in the world, and we each try our best to ensure that safe haven stays the same. Migration, legal or not, changes everything. One does not have to be a native of one's home town/city/nation to feel protective of it, or have the urge to preserve what one has, and that's the urge which is triggered when there is a large immigrant population.


The limited resource argument also holds true too. Dumping several hundred thousand 3rd world people with their own needs on my neck of the woods will soon swamp all the services we have. Even if they were the sweetest people in the world, willing to work hard to earn their way and integrate, there would have to be immediate medical, police, education and housing concerns because they would hardly be likely to bring these expertise and resources with them. 


I like the way you think. Humanity is one big family after all, but as with all families some relatives are preferred over others, and the poor, uneducated, uncouth cousins of the world are very rarely invited to overstay their welcome. 

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:53 | 1344756 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

If all the illegals are given citizenship this will help with our social security problems ...

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:48 | 1344726 Alcoholic Nativ...
Alcoholic Native American's picture

Sovereign countries, lol.  That's funny when all major countries are reliant on a global network of anonymous billionaires to fund their debt.  With conditions of course.


Fuck this propaganda bullshit.



Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:46 | 1344737 IdioTsincracY
IdioTsincracY's picture

Bibulous ... relax!

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 19:30 | 1344729 Bob
Bob's picture

One of the chief arguments against free immigration is that old song about “stealing jobs.” It amazes me that some people still believe this.

You could only be amazed that people still, in this day and age, still believe that unrestricted immigration costs Americans jobs if you don't understand the distinction between an American and others.  Or--within the actual frame of reference--basic math and English.

Love the neoliberal conflation via "economics," though.  Really loved that outsourcing thingy, btw.

But you should deal with the actual issue when you claim to defeat your ignorant opponents. 

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:48 | 1344733 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

ok asshole, the laws are broken and transgressors punished accordingly.....wasn't a 92 year old woman in atlanta riddled with 20+ bullet holes a couple of years ago because the gestapo police found her guilty of breaking the law before she had been charged? that is the standard of law enforcement....and then the mayor does absolutely nothing to call for justice....

would you defend someone taking liquid on board a plane because he was thirsty when the law prohibits it? you assholes are damned intent that you are going to have your 3d world slave labor everywhere....fuck you! keep the borders and put you on the other side....

and isn't a sitting president required to be a citizen of this country? but we shouldn't enforce that law either because we don't want to be that kind of nation.....

no asshole, the laws are to be enforced or changed....if you want to change them, then do so honestly - not through the contemptuous fashion you wish to ignore them...but then again the laws or only for the little people...

Mon, 06/06/2011 - 17:59 | 1344783 Braindonor1
Braindonor1's picture

After reading this article, I was left with the impression that the author is the kind of guy that stands in front of a mirror while composing his articles and concludes every thought by announcing 'You're absolutely right'.

While I would be happy never to read another of his pieces of garbage, I suppose I should be glad that he has restricted himself (thus far) to writing.  

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