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Guest Post: The Transition To A Free Society

Tyler Durden's picture


The next in a continuing series (most recently: Democracy and Its Contradictions).

Submitted by Free Radical

The Transition to a Free Society

The monster states created by modernity are not necessary for economic or political freedom or for the flourishing of culture; taking their history as a whole, they are responsible for spectacular losses of both. – Donald Livingston, “Dismantling Leviathan”i

The first, most fundamental, and most necessary step in the transition to a free society is the demise of the modern “monster state.” And the first, most fundamental, and most necessary step in this process is the demise of the monstrous American state, its erstwhile role as a beacon to the world having long ago given way to a superpower that brings not light but heat, pulling a shroud over its own people in the process.  The monster will object that it only wants to keep its people warm and safe, of course, but as people elsewhere start kicking their shrouds off, it is increasingly clear that the status – as in statist – quo is changing and that neither suffocating domestic policies nor incendiary foreign ones will be tolerated much longer.

It is increasingly clear, moreover, that the American welfare-warfare state is on its last legs and that its use of the present crisis to extend its reach both at home and abroad is an act of desperation, its towering inferno of debt being inextinguishable for the simple reason that desperation is what fuels it.  The United States Government isn’t fighting fire with fire, in other words; the American Empire is setting the world aflame with domestic overindulgence and foreign overextension, the difference being that it won’t merely become the latest victim of “imperial overstretch”; instead, it will become the last victim, its collapse igniting a worldwide devolution of power the likes of which the world has never known.  For while it might be assumed that Russia or China will rush in to fill the resulting power vacuum, it is far more likely that the collapse of the American Empire will precipitate a worldwide devolution revolution that no state – least of all the “monster states” – will be able to withstand, as emboldened bodies politic and sympathetic international spectators frustrate central government efforts to suppress secessionist uprisings.

Granted, what is going on in Egypt and elsewhere has nothing to do with secession, as it involves regime change, not regime collapse.  And granted, the temperament of the American people remains such that secession is something that was attempted in the past but for which the subject is now all but closed.  However, as their central government moves ever closer to defaulting on its welfare obligations – both selectively (through raising the retirement age, means testing, and the like) and monetarily (through debasing the currency) – it will become clear to the American people that far from securing the blessings of liberty, what has instead been secured – for themselves and their posterity – is the curse of tyranny, the only alternative to which is a return to the principle upon which their nation was founded.

No matter that their central government no longer recognizes this principle, the fact is that is no law against – i.e., no Constitutional prohibition of – secession.  On the contrary,

The procedure for joining the Union also applied to withdrawing from the Union.  And the Tenth Amendment, which reserved to the states powers not delegated to the federal government, would seem to put the matter of secession with the states and the people.ii

So, too, would the fact that the delegations of three states, in ratifying the Constitution, specifically reserved not only each state’s right to withdraw from the Union but the people’s right to do so. For example,

The People of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whosoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression …

Clearly, then, not only the state of Virginia but any number of it or any other state’s citizens can legally secede from the Union. But as the United States Supreme Court, however groundlessly, would no doubt rule against them were they to attempt to do so, let us dispense with the U.S. Government’s law altogether and appeal instead to the fact that one has no obligation to obey an immoral law but, on the contrary, a duty to break it. And let us imagine that the lawbreaking manifests itself in the form of a nonviolent protest, such that an initial fraction puts the “injury and oppression” of the American state to the test by standing up in defense of the right of self-determination and declaring its freedom accordingly. Moreover, let us do so by recalling the spectacle of a lone man confronting the armored emblem of the state in the capital city of a communist dictatorship. Glued to its television sets, the world watched in horror and fascination as the brave young man stood his ground while the mechanized monster tried in vain to outmaneuver him, the question being why it tried to outmaneuver him at all. That is, why didn’t the monster simply stay its course, the better for its monstrous master to leave no question as to who controlled whom?

The answer, of course, is that the whole world was watching. And given that the Chinese government remains humiliated to this day by this otherwise minor (if tremendously heroic) incident, one can only imagine the condemnation that the U.S. Government would suffer if faced with something similar. Imagine the spectacle, say, of a few thousand secessionists gathered in the same nonviolent civil disobedience that Gandhi, following Thoreau, used to liquefy the British Empire, to say nothing of the  media onslaught that brought down the monstrous Mubarak regime in a matter of days. That is, imagine U.S. Government troops rolling in and dragging off American citizens, each clutching a copy of the Declaration of Independence, with cable news, Google, Facebook, and Twitter providing real-time worldwide coverage. Can one possibly believe that in light of such a blatant act of hypocrisy the American state could weather the resultant loss of whatever moral authority it still pretended to have? From his command post in the bowels of the White House, what would the president say to the nation and the world? What could he say? “We have no choice but to use military force against this unwarranted attack on America”? “We must once again preserve the Union at the expense of the principle upon which it was founded”? “If we in Washington allow these people the right of self-determination, we will soon find ourselves unemployed and having to survive, like you, on the economic means”?

The answer, of course is no, the American state could not weather such hypocrisy, to which we must add that the U.S. has a long history of secessionist movements, not to mention that one of the 20th century’s most prominent American diplomats decried the nation’s excessive size and the attendant loss of intimacy between the people and their government, stating flatly that the United States had long ago become ungovernable democratically and proposing that it be broken up into nine regional and three urban republics.iii Which is to say that both American history and the stark reality of the modern monster state speak to what must be done before the United States Government wreaks more havoc than either its own people of those of the rest of the world can withstand.

And while the aftermath of the U.S. Government’s collapse will obviously be a tumultuous time, comfort can be taken in the fact that what began as a loose federation of independent states can return to that independence with much less socioeconomic turmoil than that which followed the collapse of the Soviet Union. For the American states – though victimized themselves by needless government intervention and fiscal irresponsibility – are nonetheless far more able to govern than their Soviet counterparts were. Thus, as order returns within and among the states, the devolution of power will be able to continue such that, in Tennyson’s words, Freedom slowly broadens down / From precedent to precedent, and genuinely free societies begin at long last to emerge.

So to that emergence we turn in my next submission: “The Governance of a Free Society.”

i Harper’s magazine, May, 2002.
ii Charles Adams, When In the Course of Human Events, Rowman & Littlefield, 2000, Chapter 12, “The Trial of the Century that Never Was,” p. 181.
iii George F. Kennan, Around the Cragged Hill: A Personal and Political Philosophy, W.W. Norton and Company, 1993, Chapter 7.


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Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:21 | 995480 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

"cable news, Google, Facebook, and Twitter providing real-time worldwide coverage."

LOL they wont cover it. remember how they ignored the tea party protests and then later slandered them as racists.  the MSM is state tv

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:29 | 995503 floydian slip
floydian slip's picture


the news on CNNBCBS is politically correct washed and spun fluff that adhears to the corporate sponsors and sheep mentality. 


Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:39 | 995527 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

the world is burning down and our media is painting the government story about "recovery"

they compare and equate people in tunisia and egypt fighting bullets and tanks with fat union thugs rioting for more taxpayer funds from the public trough.  even though obama fiddles as rome burns and worries about gay marriage, a gay military, another motown WH party, the media is silent

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:07 | 995591 penisouraus erecti
penisouraus erecti's picture

I feel bad for this guy, but after raise, increased state and federal taxes (in f'ng Illinois) my paycheck will be LESS than it was. Reality sucks, don't it.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:08 | 995576 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture
the news on CNNBCBS is politically correct washed and spun fluff that adhears to the corporate sponsors and sheep mentality.
Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:25 | 995649 floydian slip
floydian slip's picture


its the capchas!  hahahaha

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:37 | 995685 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture

Be sure to read past the headline.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:45 | 995694 floydian slip
floydian slip's picture

when i looked at your link and saw cnbc, i had no interest at all

cool quote from Reggie




Sat, 02/26/2011 - 00:51 | 999091 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

i would think that in a survey of media posing as news but in reality being propaganda, fox would at least rate a mention.  the use of a year old tape as current to slander ron paul sets a new standard imo.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 02:36 | 996184 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

So, we are being kept afloat by way of a technicality?

That is exactly what I suspected.... fundamentals are like the underwriting guidelines of yester year.  Just a nuisance and deserve to die.

Long live the almighty algorithm, maybe one day it will replace my heart rithm.    

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:05 | 995885 Bob Sponge
Bob Sponge's picture

That was my thought also. I doubt the MSM will cover it. Isn't it amazing that the USA is being destroyed by people who have more wealth than most can even comprehend, only because they want MORE. I don't know how they can live with themselves. I guess some people really have no conscience and can do anything without guilt. Fucking pathetic.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:15 | 996392 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Sociopaths... Psycopaths... Here is a definition of most of our 'leaders'.  They have risen to the positions of power in American society (and probably in most other societies, since human nature is a constant). If the current leaders are replaced will the individuals that replace them be meaningfully different? Not unless those that replace them are subjected to the strict supervision that was provided in the US Constitution. Once the Constitution had been 'reinterpreted' into a meaningless pile of drivel no checks on power remained.

From Wiki...

"There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring for as long as either childhood, or in the case of many who are influenced by environmental factors, around age 15, as indicated by three or more of the following:

  1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
  2. deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
  3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
  4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
  5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
  6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
  7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another"

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:45 | 996433 Bob
Bob's picture

Take a look at the movie The Corporation:

It's also widely available on DVD.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 02:45 | 996201 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Al Jazeera will.  

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 06:36 | 996367 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

Al Jazeera and Russia Today are the real deal forget the Corporate media

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:46 | 995541 Huck T
Huck T's picture

This is full of the "obvious" and the "clear" - and yet the gist seems to be we need to go back to the 18th century, which is impossible.  That world is gone.  To think we can go back is simply naive.   

Men have to be made to feel safe in order that they might behave rationally.  If they cannot feel secure that their the fruits of their labor will be safely harvested, they will plant no trees.

This was the point of Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan, the foundation of all western social contract philosophy. 

We need a new term for the Armchair insurrectionaries, something that captures the type the way "parlor socialist" did a hundred years ago.  Any takers?


Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:29 | 995661 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

"Limosine Liberal" came immediately to mind.

"... we need to go back to the 18th century, which is impossible.  That world is gone. "

Yep, and folks who haven't been in the desert for more than a month have no idea how dependant society and social fabric are on basic services that are taken for granted (how many gallons of Clorox do you have on hand to disinfect water?)  Let alone <long list follows>

Leviathan times?  I fear so.

- Ned

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:37 | 995662 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Armchair anarchist

Parlour Patriot

Coffee shop combatant

Internet insurrectionist

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:23 | 995780 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Keyboard Kamikaze?


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 08:17 | 996462 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

I quite like Bollinger Bolshevik

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:55 | 996013 AZSovreign
AZSovreign's picture

At least some of us are trying to stop it, and fix the problem... Or at the very least circumvent it..

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 02:58 | 996214 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Are you one of those who believes in safe?  There is no safe.  Its a state that can't be achieved in life.  You could die tomorrow of a brain hemorrhage straining on the toilet.  If someone promises you safety you can be sure they are selling snake oil. What are you willing to pay for something that can't be delivered?  

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 08:45 | 996503 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

+1.  Fear is the prime motivator in the lives of most people.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 04:48 | 996304 CH1
CH1's picture

Hobbes!?? Hobbes was full of shit.

He was a traumatized guy who come up with a justification for coercive rule, just when the divine right of kings was failing.

If you want to read political philosophy, read Locke.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 08:44 | 996502 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

"He was a traumatized guy who come up with a justification for coercive rule,..."

I caught his warning about coercive rule.  Like today's crowd, where "the end justifies the means."

And Locke (+ Mill) for rationale on how it should be and limits where it should not go?  I'm with you on that.

- Ned

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 09:56 | 996633 CH1
CH1's picture

Agreeing on Locke is a good thing. :)

Best regards.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:15 | 996840 Huck T
Huck T's picture

Have you actually read Hobbes?  Or, for that matter, Locke?  Not the bumperstickers they gave you in freshman western civ, but the actual books they wrote?

I'm not advocating either as a governmental model, just suggesting that Hobbes might have had an idea about the basic reason for, and purpose of, government: to maintain order so that men can behave ni a rational manner, with an eye towards the longview.   

And as far as governmental models are concerned, try reading the constitution Locke drew up for the Carolina colony.  Look at what he did when he actually had a chance to arrange a polity.  Here's the bumpersticker: aristocracy, slavery, and disposession.  Think about it.  Then get back to us about the glories of John Locke.   


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 17:47 | 998046 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

...the basic reason for, and purpose of, government: to maintain order so that men can behave ni a rational manner, with an eye towards the longview.  

It is entirely rational for men to cooperate non-violently.  Everyone benefits.  It's obvious.  Pointing guns at people does not make them rational.  Quite the opposite.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:46 | 995543 penisouraus erecti
penisouraus erecti's picture

"That is, imagine U.S. Government troops rolling in and dragging off American citizens, each clutching a copy of the Declaration of Independence, with cable news, Google, Facebook, and Twitter providing real-time worldwide coverage. Can one possibly believe that in light of such a blatant act of hypocrisy the American state could weather the resultant loss of whatever moral authority it still pretended to have?"


No, they couldn't, but the sheeple will never see it, or at least not fully. The whole sham of a free press is getting a little bit old given the way we get fed what "they" want us to hear and see, and how any outlet that doesn't tow the line is demonized, marginalized, ostracized, politicized, polarized, and overly scrutinized. Sorry for the Rev. Jackson moment there.....

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:50 | 995555 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

LOL you are either with the state "media" or you are not

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:34 | 995674 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

it's not that simple.   NYT and PBS lean left, WSJ and Fox lean right, MW leans bullish, and ZH leans bearish.   Add InfoWars for a dash of crazy, and you can assemble something resembling the truth, but it takes absorbing all of it to make sense of any of it.  When it comes to local traffic reports, Fox is right on.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:18 | 996237 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

and tits.  Fox is good for tits.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:26 | 996336 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

What could possibly be wrong with that? Megan Kelly is hot and smart. You should check her out.

Or stay with the others and get b-cups and total bullshit.


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:21 | 996309 born2bmild
born2bmild's picture

NYT leaning left? I never thought of Friedman's golden straightjacket of globalization as a left concept nor was the drumbeat for war in Iraq. PBS used to do a better job of pretending to be left before Hurwitz (The Gap and Maxxam) steamrolled the path for corporate sponsorship of broadcasts. I've heard NPR outright lie about events I was on stage for (Vets for Peace, from that vantage point you can get a pretty good crowd size estimate) All of those corportate outlets give you hamster wheel to nowhere of Dems vs. Repubs. If all goes well you are looking at (ZH) an example of what media of the future can be.

Stateless society isn't a left or right concept by definition near as I can tell. Where do I sign up?

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:50 | 995839 Joseph Jones
Joseph Jones's picture

We saw Bob Dylan and His Band in Montana last year.  John Mellenkamp opened.  When John mentioned "freedom" in one of his stupid songs, the young crowd standing near the stage yelled and applauded...yes, land of the free, etc.  "Naive", and "crock of you-know-what" doesn't begin to describe their response.   

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:58 | 995869 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

I feel your pain

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 02:10 | 996139 DeltaDawn
DeltaDawn's picture

Freedom at that age = freedom to get chemically altered, not clean your dwelling, eat what you want and hook up as often as possible. Bad hair and sloppy clothes as well.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:01 | 996218 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Ahh, those were the days, my friend.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 01:11 | 996042 I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

I disagree. I think the alternative media and liberty minded folks with camera phones, flip cameras, etc. are doing a pretty good job of getting footage and ideas out in front of the cattle, slowly but surely.  I am a recovering neo-con FoxNews-aholic that unlocked my mind when I gave alternative media a chance, and I share my findings with everyone I can. All we can do is plant idea-seeds and hope more and more of us have awakenings.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 04:53 | 996308 CH1
CH1's picture

We need to build parallel info streams and parallel lives. The mainstream is rotten and poisonous.

That also means that we have to NOT take the easy path.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:59 | 996444 taxpayer102
taxpayer102's picture

The U.S. government aware of alternative media's influence is concerned how best to use it. According to the Broadcast Board of Governors which now oversees all U.S. civilian international broadcasting (VOA, Radio Free Asia, etc.)

"The role New Media is playing in Tunisia, Egypt, and elsewhere is up for debate. What's certain, however, is that Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and other social media tools have changed the way people communicate. Today's global media environment is a revolution in progress. How is the U.S. taking advantage of the potential unleashed by the digital revolution and what else must it do? Join a discussion with experts and practitioners led by Walter Isaacson, BBG Chairman and former president of CNN."

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:25 | 996405 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Baloney... The Kent State Massacre happened! To say that some similar event could not happen again is to be in denial. There were no tanks at Kent State but there were lots of National Guardsmen with weapons and live ammo... and, they did not avoid confrontation with deadly force as the tank in China did.

"The Kent State shootings—also known as the May 4 massacre or Kent State massacre[2][3][4]—occurred at Kent State University in the city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by members of the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[5]

Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance"

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:50 | 995556 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

" of the 20th century’s most prominent American diplomats..."

That would be George Frost Kennan 


 The U.S. State Department produces Policy Planning Study #23. George Kennan, the State Department's Director of Policy Planning writes,

We have fifty percent of the world's wealth, but only 6.3% of its population. In this situation, our real job in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which permit us to maintain this position of disparity.

To do so, we have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming.

We should cease to talk about vague and unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards and democratization.

The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.


Although he didn't have his Edward Bernays mind control theories down pat, old George knew whereof he spoke.

He had been the agent who went into Russia on behalf of the Rockefellers to help instigate, finance and control the communist revolution so the Rockefellers could get their bloodsoaked hands on Russia's oil and mineral wealth.

  In pre-Revolutionary Russia, every single square inch of land, every particle of mineral wealth and every drop of oil is the personal property of the Romanov family and, of course, that is the way it had been ordained by our good friend, the Lord God Almighty... according to the Romanovs.

The Rockefellers, being one step above God, don't accept this arbitrary distribution of wealth by a divine being and are having wet dreams about getting their hands on all that lovely Russian oil.

 Congressional testimony will later reveal that the Rockefellers sent large sums of money to Lenin and Trotsky in an attempt to topple the Czar by instigating and controlling the first Communist Revolution in 1905.

Rockefeller banker, Jacob Schiff of Kuhn, Loeb, sends a personal emissary, George Kennan, to Russia where he spends some twenty years promoting revolution.

Funding for the Bolshevik Revolution is also provided by the Warburg banks, the Morgan family's Guaranty Trust and the Harrimans.

Funny old world, isn't it?


Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:01 | 995586 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

Verrrry interesting.  Do you have a source for further reading?  I am also intrigued by the Red Cross' involvement in fomenting Russian revolution(s).

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:38 | 995686 duo
duo's picture

It's a long read, 800 pages maybe, but very good:  Orlando Figes' "A people's tragedy".  Russia had several chances to avoid Bolshivism, but luck and foreigh influence got in the way.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 02:46 | 996199 born2bmild
born2bmild's picture

And Freedom to Fascism the documentary:

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 01:15 | 996047 I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

I believe "The Creature From Jeckyl Island" discusses the Red Cross' role. And if I'm mistaken, still a damn good book anyway!

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:53 | 996353 KevinB
KevinB's picture

Rockefeller banker, Jacob Schiff of Kuhn, Loeb, sends a personal emissary, George Kennan, to Russia where he spends some twenty years promoting revolution.

This makes for amusing reading, but it's complete crap. Kennan was born in 1904. At the time of the Russian Revolution, he was 13. Four years later, when Lenin's takeover was almost complete, he was a 17-year old freshman at Princeton. Four years after that, when the NEP was in flower, Lenin dead and Stalin taking over, he was a 21-year old graduate. He entered the fledgling foreign service, but his first overseas postings were in Switzerland and Germany. He was eventually posted to Russia, but in 1931, just in time for the Soviet famines, and he stayed through the 30's, observing first hand Stalin's vicious purges.

Nice piece of fiction you wrote, though. Do you have a romantic novel coming out soon?

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 14:14 | 997392 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture


Go to the head off the class for catching that. 

  When wading in the cesspool of much of official history it is hard not to come out with some shit stuck to your boots.

You'll be amazed how often the same family names keep popping up.

Or maybe not.

George Kennan (February 16, 1845 – 1924) was an explorer noted for his travels and writings on the Russian Empire.  He was a cousin of diplomat and historian George F. Kennan with whom he shared his birthday.

I shouldDa... couldDa... done the math.

Maxima Mia Culpa!

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:56 | 995572 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

Good read, thanks for sharing.  My belief is the US will have its nine regional "republics" plus three urban republics...the only question being will it occur as a result of force or consent.  (to borrow from Rothschild NWO quote)

Why not break up voluntarily vice have the breakup forced upon folks through the crack up bust?

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:29 | 995656 DOT
DOT's picture

34/50 Who will it be that comes foward with a plan to offer the substitute ?

Regional interest must no longer be supressed by the Federal State. 

With-out a plan; only chaos.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:33 | 995801 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

I think the out of left-field shock to the US will come when it's true owners finally show their hand. The owners of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that is. 

King William anyone? Something to watch there.



Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:17 | 996395 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

That's just it - I want chaos.  Ordered systems are synonymous with death whereas chaotic systems are synonymous with life and growth.  We've tried central planning - and planning of every stripe - and look where it has gotten us.  Granted that's a very simplistic way of viewing society, but it's tough to argue against centralized states playing the critical role in our downfall.

To quote Terry Pratchett (via Butler Shafer) "Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought.  Chaos always defeats order because it is better organized"  

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 21:58 | 995578 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

I don't think the Federal Gov't will have to completely collapse, disappear, or give up power in order for the states to get on with things. Eventually, they'll just become increasingly more ineffective and irrelevant to the actual day to day functioning of the nation.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:25 | 995651 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

We are already seeing some states joining in some "sub-federations", like the working group to discuss nullification of specific federal laws, all according to the Constitution. Some States are waking up.

This will not turn the Federal Gov (all three powers) irrelevant but put them where they belong originally by removing illegal powers they granted themselves.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:17 | 995766 pods
pods's picture

Well until the states can actually fund operations without FED monetization, they got no chance.  

Most all states are in the hole billions to the  

The states tried to assert their sovereignty once before.  And that did not end well.

Even if the states did try something, the Feds have a ton of the munis by the shorthairs.  

Everybody in the nation is stuck in the credit web.  And the interest is increasing.


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 04:57 | 996312 CH1
CH1's picture

I'm not putting a lot of faith in them, but quite a few US states are looking at Sound Money Bills. See here:

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:25 | 996404 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

When the Federal Govt is reduced to the District of Columbia (whatever the hell it is!), then who cares what "They" have to say?

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:06 | 996222 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

So, you thing they will go gently into that good night?

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 08:02 | 996446 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture


The US Gov will not allow a Soviet Union style collapse...which was rather gentle as collapses go. If the US Gov intended to allow a gentle collapse why would they bother  shredding the Constitution, destroying the dollar and taking down the world economy along with them?

The Gov will continue to play for one more day in the sun...Continuing to live in luxury as long as possible. That is the only plan that I see.


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 10:29 | 996722 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

So, you thing they will go gently into that good night?

No, they will make a lot of noise but there isn't a lot they can do. Under Bush there was pressure to institute a national driver's license... at least one State said no and its budget for road construction and maintenance was under threat to which they responded "fuck it, we'll do it ourselves". The threat went away, along with the whole project, because the fed gov would lose presence/power inside that State (at least).

You can say NO!, but you have to believe in yourself.

US Gov will not allow a Soviet Union style collapse

No, that is the old Soviets wet dream... they [US/SU] are completely different beasts, starting with how both union and "union" were formed.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 01:24 | 996067 I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

A couple years ago, I went to a Tea Party rally in Austin, and was very impressed until that wolf in sheep's clothing Rick Perry got up and started talking secession. This dude attended the Bilderberg Meeting in Turkey a few years ago to discuss the treasonous Trans-Texas Corridor. If you know any Texans who think Perry's shit don't stink, ask them what they think of him being Albert Gore's presidential campaign manager in 1988, when he was a Democrat. (Didn't do such a great job either, Gore finished behind Jesse Jackson in the primary.) Point of my post was that to hear that political whore talk about secession and states' rights damn near made me have explosive diarhea on the spot. I left the rally.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 09:52 | 996629 victor82
victor82's picture

It's actually this path that I see as the more reasonable one. I actually don't see the Federal Union "breaking up", as it were so much as the old Leviathan state simply breaking down from exhaustion and bankruptcy. People here underestimate the Sheeple's attachment to the notion of the "United States" as conceived after the Civil War by Lincoln and the other Hamiltonians. 

People also don't quite get the permanence of war as a part of the human condition. The notion that the planet would simply devolve into several competing centers of power without war in the absence of a United States without going all Thucydides on us is just silly. A new hegemon would arise, most likely Wilhelmine China, and attempt to impose order on disorder. "Manifest Destiny", as it were. 

And there would be a major global conflict as a result. There always is. Human beings are never exempt from their own foolishness.

Still and all, what has been astonishing to me recently is the impression that the Political and Looter classes simply believe that they can go on looting from the Middle Class and the Several States as if nothing will happen to them. I've always wondered what the Bourbons acted like while the Revolutionaries were quietly taking down names. Now I know. 

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:17 | 995628 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Interesting article and i look forward the 2nd though I have reservations already regards how a smaller localised State is any more democratic than the absolute bollocks that is the nation State! 

It's the same system (monopoly power) and the same problem of 'transfer' of power from the individual to some twat who purportedly represents us which is a nonsense in itself. Why need representation when you can do it yourself in a free society or free market??

Let's see...


Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:24 | 995646 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

Why need representation when you can do it yourself in a free society or free market??

This is essentially the same question I keep asking myself.  If what works in the micro (i.e., personal) sphere doesn't work in the macro (i.e., nation state) sphere, where does it break down, and why?

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 06:20 | 996362 KevinB
KevinB's picture

Tragedy of the commons, basically. In your personal life, you can't sponge off another person, just do the fun things, and let them do all the work. (Well, you can, but she'll leave you eventually.) You have to do stuff. And if you live in a small town, and your house is the rattiest on the block, sooner or later, someone's going to tell you that YOU have to clean it up, because it's affecting everyone else's property values.

But at the national level, that disappears. Don't want to work? No problem, the state will give you some money, and you're clever enough, you find ways to work the system to get extra. Don't worry about cleaning the streets, or keeping the roads working (I remember at our cottage in rural Quebec, we'd all turn out once or twice a summer to fill in the potholes on the gravel road from the highway to our homes). No problem, someone else will take care of it.

The problem is the dissociation between personal effort and civic effort; you can see the direct effect of the former on your life, but you can choose to do nothing for the latter and it has no effect at all on your life. For a while, at least.

Like maybe now?

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:35 | 995683 AnonymousAnarchist
AnonymousAnarchist's picture

That's why you have to keep attacking the myth. Even if it's after I'm gone, we'll eventually get there.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:46 | 995695 philgramm
philgramm's picture

love C4SS.  Have you checked out  You may like it if you are a believer in free markets and peaceful anarchy (most will say that is an oxymoron.  If you care to check out the source you will realize it is possible). 

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:56 | 995861 AnonymousAnarchist
AnonymousAnarchist's picture

Well then (if you haven't already) you should send the C4SS some $$$. ;)

It's been a while since I visited but I still have much respect for Molyneux. In fact, one of the reasons I always link to the Introduction to a Stateless Society is because that series of Molyneux articles is a great place to start (although I still always tell people to read Hasnas' The Obviousness of Anarchy (pdf) first).

Eventually, Government Will Die.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 08:19 | 996467 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

Working a little bit every day so that someday Anarchy will be a fine upstanding word no longer covered with the muck heaped on it by statists of every criminal, power whoring stripe :-)

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 04:59 | 996314 CH1
CH1's picture

Smaller, fewer tax-thugs, multiplied options for running away to a better place...

Not ideal by any means, but an improvement.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:18 | 995629 lesterbegood
lesterbegood's picture

"Clearly, then, not only the state of Virginia but any number of it or any other state’s citizens can legally secede from the Union."

Many Americans have freed themselves of the slavery of the UNITED STATES CORPORATION and its corporate subsidiaries.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:18 | 995631 illyia
illyia's picture

Only one thing I am absolutely sure of when TSHTF:

You will not be able to drive to the store and buy things for a while...


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:00 | 996315 CH1
CH1's picture

I am not so sure of that. Entrepreneurial people find ways... especially when the enforcers are trying to keep City Hall from being stormed.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 08:23 | 996472 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture


Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:22 | 995645 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

We dont have to collapse before we quit meddling in the world.

If people will just be patient our budget deficits will mean the end of adventurism and a bloated military in about 15 years, maybe sooner.

Boomers want their healthcare and government unions want their benefits. The sheeple themselves will see to it that the american empire ends. Those foreign bases are too damn expensive

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:07 | 996226 born2bmild
born2bmild's picture

If you're talking haircuts Homeland Security is cousin itt.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:32 | 995672 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

"And while the aftermath of the U.S. Government’s collapse will obviously be a tumultuous time, comfort can be taken in the fact that what began as a loose federation of independent states can return to that independence with much less socioeconomic turmoil than that which followed the collapse of the Soviet Union."

I disagree with this excerpt. The former Soviet Union was a homogenous society, and it remains the same post-collapse. There was no extreme ethnic or socioeconomic tension, unlike that which exists in the USA. Any collapse of the American Empire will be traumatic. Atrocity and ethnic cleansing will be common. The violence will be extreme.


Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:46 | 995798 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

 "Atrocity and ethnic cleansing will be common. The violence will be extreme."

As it shall be again.

"Without Sanctuary"


Searching through America's past James Allen uncovered an extraordinary visual legacy: photographs and postcards taken as souvenirs at lynchings throughout America.

Please be aware before entering the site that much of the material is very disturbing.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:16 | 995912 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

The US nature is eternal. Mob rule since the beginning.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:09 | 996324 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Explain Affirmative Action, then.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:06 | 996125 born2bmild
born2bmild's picture

I agree w/ you there but I bet it's a pretty mixed bag. Not just state by state but block by block. I wonder if there won't be many communities that bind together to protect themselves like we often see in natural disasters in the US. I heard the same was true for much of LA during the Rodney King riots too, there would be blocks with armed civilians and homemade spike strips on each corner holding it down-as it were. I feel lucky to live in a fairly harmonious city (SF) which was at it's best immediately after the Loma Prieta earthquake imo but across the Bay in Oakland and Richmond neighborhood kids pour gas into the gutter, let it run down the block before they light it to watch the line of cars blow up one at a time - for fun. 

Hey Serotonin, it's off topic but I caught your earlier comment about DU. I don't know if you are an engineer or chemist (I'm not) but I wonder if you've seen some of the alternative tech' ways of dealing with nuclear waste, the DOE has known about this for awhile but -suspiciously it isn't used:  I can't vouch for that aspect of Brown's Gas but a couple of years ago I made an electrolyzer in my garage for a BG torch. Interesting stuff, cheap, safe, subliminates tungsten(!), you can burnish the surface of ferrous metals for rust proofing too. I wouldn't be surprised if the claims were true, apparently there are papers out there to back it up.


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:06 | 996224 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

Not a chemist or an engineer. Just a glorified janitor, really. If someone spills something of a toxic or volatile nature, I have the equipment, knowledge, and skills to clean it up.

Aside from a brief period where I managed the hazardous waste program for a radiopharmaceutical facility, I haven't worked a great deal with radioactive waste.

That's an interesting video on radioactive waste disposal, BTW. Reminds me a little bit about a man named Royal Ramond Rife (reputed to have discovered cure for cancer). Or Nikola Tesla. Brilliant minds and amazing inventions are apparently a threat to the corporate oligarchy.

Sounds like a cool experiment with the electroplating gadget. Stay away from chromium. The hexavalent biproduct is highly toxic.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:04 | 996246 born2bmild
born2bmild's picture

Those are some powerful skills. Thanks for the tip (fortunately I was aware of that), now people are compressing BG and putting it into cars (claiming success too) but that's way too dangerous for me (folks have died). Are you a Rex Research fan?  Most of it's way over my EE dropout knowledge level and some of it is downright kooky but there are also actual patents and diagrams for some amazing stuff in there, the corporate thieves should feel threatened... health, energy and farming info goldmine. I'll check out RRR, Tesla is my hero, it felt pretty good when the IEEE voted him most important person of the 1900's. Thanks.


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:04 | 996317 CH1
CH1's picture

Disagree. There will certainly be violence in places - maybe in a lot of places... but most Americans are decent people (even if hypnotized at the moment), and they do own guns.

A full meltdown would be ugly in America, but fairly short and followed by an entrepreneurial reset.

But, if the political slime class survives the storm with their legitimacy intact, we're still screwed.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:09 | 996325 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

+ 1

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:35 | 995681 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

....and I had thought that the Civil War had pretty well settled the states' rights issue...don't get me wrong, the Feds cannot even manage a postal service, let alone something a bit more complex such as our economy.


I know many western Canadians have similar feelings to westerners in the U.S. about their bureaucratic, urban, eastern governments.

Perhaps the eastern half of North America could become one country and the western half another (that would include Canada, Mexico, and the U.S. western states), though something would have to be done about California's rampant bureaucracy...they could be sent East.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:49 | 995698 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

Perhaps the eastern half of North America could become one country and the western half another

I'm pro-choice but anti-gun control, pro-gold but anti-Rand, pro-minimum wage but anti-union, pro-environment but anti-hippy.  Which side do I go to?  2 parties, both wack with no keg.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:48 | 995706 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Depends on where you live I guess- the old battle flag still flies in two of the four towns in my county (the other two are more recent and dont have monuments) and on many, many houses and vehicles.  Folks around here are still pretty keen on the states rights concept.

If there is a breakdown there is ablsolutely no way the south is staying with the northeast- southerners not only still have a collective identity and consider themselves different from the rest of the nation they pretty much still dislike Yankees though to varying degrees ranging from mild distrust to outright hatred. Much more likely that you would very likely see much if not all of the former Confederacy band together again, whatever happens with the rest of the US.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:42 | 995822 Seer
Seer's picture

So, is slavery going to make a comeback there?

The good old days when god-fearing rich white men could enslave others...

Texas and the SW US will return to control by Mexicans.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:07 | 996320 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Do Mexicans have a rich history of victory on the field of battle? I must have missed that.

They do tend to kick ass at the welfare office. I gotta give them that.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:08 | 996323 CH1
CH1's picture

Feeling hateful today, are we? Go hurt a brown guy!

Oh, and remember the Alamo!

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 06:29 | 996331 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

My wife is from El Salvador. I hate bullshit like the Reconquista, Aztlan, La Raza and other anti-American groups.

I am tired of standing idle in the face of an invasion.

Mostly I hate that 70% of these dumb fucks are socialist to their bone marrow.

If you are in the USA waving a Mexican flag and drawing welfare and food stamps, I do hate you.

If y'all want to make this about race, instead of an invasion by Mexican nationals, we can do that. La Raza already does.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:11 | 996388 CH1
CH1's picture

Of course La Raza are pricks, but 90% of the Mexicans I know are working and sending their extra money home to their family Mexico. I have no argument with them. Hell, without them, not much would actually get done!

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:07 | 996321 CH1
CH1's picture

Don't be a troll... only a fraction of a fraction of 1% - that is, the inveterate assholes - would ever try such a thing. And if they did, hundreds of us grab a gun and shoot the bastards.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 11:12 | 996832 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Silly Yankee. As if people went and fought last time so a few rich guys could own slaves.

Even if your statement werent ridiculous, what would be the point? Blacks were bought for one reason- mechanized farm equipment had not been invented yet.

Should such a thing occur, I expect that there would be a mass exodus north anyway as Federal programs here were dismantled.

Mexico? Gimme a break. A disproportionate share of the military comes from the south and the general population is highly skilled with weapons. Almost every boy in my kids high school has his own rifle and shotgun and is already reasonably good with it, this is the case through most of the south. The criminal invaders would almost certainly be driven out and Mexico would do nothing.


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:32 | 996414 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

....and I had thought that the Civil War had pretty well settled the states' rights issue...

Hmm, just like WWI ended up with a "defeated" Germany...

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:37 | 995684 DOT
DOT's picture

Social inertia; this may take some time.

There is no senario I can envision where the nanny state

survives the retirement and aging of the so called boomers.

As for myself I will be content to see an opportunity for my children to

build a new institution of government that better suits their future.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:11 | 996326 CH1
CH1's picture

Or build non-government systems that better suit their future?

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:40 | 995688 philgramm
philgramm's picture

The state is the biggest obstacle to a free and peaceful society.  Here are a couple of videos from a great modern day philosopher named Stefan Molyneux who summarizes the effects of the State on its citizens.


Stop voting.  The choice to not vote is a choice that states that you do not agree with the system.  The solution will not come from within the system. 


Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:09 | 995751 Reese Bobby
Reese Bobby's picture

I'll tell you what is not the solution: "Stefan the Great Philosopher" and his dressed up version of the 60's/70's "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out."  Didn't work then and won't work now.  In fact the cultural leaders that sold that crap ended up running firms like The Caryle Group that own your ass today.  Only voters can change the ownership of our elected "Leaders" by the Big Banks.  And time is short.  Clueless wards of the state almost have a blocking position.

But poor "Stefan the Great" can always find a new country more receptive to his Communism, which has killed more people than simple despots like "Hitler the Douchebag." 

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:25 | 995783 philgramm
philgramm's picture

Communism?  I don't think you comprehend

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:27 | 995787 VyseLegendaire
VyseLegendaire's picture

I don't think you've done enough research on the guy to conclude all of that.  Personally I think hes probably the most cogent voice of reason in this whole 'post-collapse' movement. 

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:13 | 996327 CH1
CH1's picture

LOL... calling an Ancap a Commie!??

Reminds me of people calling Ayn Rand a Commie.

Knee, hammer, kick.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:12 | 995756 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

what if the old folks disagree with that theory and keep voting? 

Percentage of Americans over 65: 12%, roughly 40 million

Percentage of voters in this range: 65%

That's the problem with the Carlin argument, Pesci rest his soul.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:46 | 995835 Seer
Seer's picture

Yeah, I was commenting on the Wisconsin union happenings the other day.  I asked people where they were when the UAW (about 4 years ago) voted to cut new hires' salaries as a way to retain their (existing members') benefits.  Younger generation got sold out...

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:25 | 995936 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

That's the reason why SS, Medicare or whatever will never be cut. The old people vote in number and have the demographics. Add to that the now retiring boomer generation who have even larger numbers as a group. They want their piece of the SS pie too. The generations of X and younger are fucked. Your interests don't serve the politicians who will pander to the biggest group that can get them elected.

All this talk of cuts is talk. The programs will stay in place until it all collapses. There is too much inertia. It can't be stopped. The best thing you can do is prepare.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 01:13 | 996044 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You got it right.  Every person in the country has an ox that would be gored in any cut whatsoever.   There is no winning the austerity battle politically, and politics is running the country.  So, there ya have it.   I've a feeling that should have the Constitution actually have been adhered to we would have avoided this situation.   Let's start with the issuance of "money" that is not silver.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 09:59 | 996644 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Dear Rocky,

I want to leave you today with one, simple idea: Silver is the Peoples' Currency.

All it takes is for readers of this blog & other like-minded individuals to begin circulating silver as their currency. It is not a debt, rather a cash settled transaction, the price in ounces for product/service to be agreed by the parties involved.

There are enough professionals & tradesmen here to effect this transition. Put up a sign at the register, or instruct your secretary or sales: "Yes, we also take silver, prices negotiable." and then silver becomes money (circulating in the form of a cash/credit substitute) again. The people have this well within their sovereign powers to circulate their silver in Mutual Exchange. Moreover, for long-distance transactions, I would gladly trust FedEx, UPS, or other registered carrier to safeguard my currency over the current insolvent Banking Cartel; those with neither cash nor assets to back even a fraction of their current claims.

We (the People) cannot End the Fed nor the banking stranglehold on this nation & its citizens, without replacing It first. 

Luckily in this case, we are replacing It with something better. Silver.



PS: Silver. The Peoples' Currency. 


Sat, 02/26/2011 - 13:00 | 999732 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You are preaching to the choir, my brother.  Amen and hallelujah.

Sun, 02/27/2011 - 16:39 | 1002076 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Glory be. Let us not fail in this sacred endevour. Free Silver!

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 10:09 | 996664 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

.... and politics is running the country.

-> ... and politics is ruining the country.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:14 | 996330 CH1
CH1's picture

Can't much disagree with you, Doc. :(

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 22:49 | 995701 Reese Bobby
Reese Bobby's picture

I'm game for any change in society as long as my cable TV sports offering is left intact.  Oh, and I'll also require some return to our Christian-based roots.  Otherwise all systems go here.

P.S. A/C is not a luxury anymore...I really count on it in the summer...

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:11 | 995754 lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

.......i've come so far in my "re-education", reading ZEROHEDGE, listening to people like Chris Hedges, John Pilger, Alex Jones ......... thank god i have a computer & have learned to navigate the internet in my older years.   it's very scarey to realize that everything you ever based your life upon was nothing but illusion & lies ........ OUTRIGHT LIES by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT & CORPORATIONS & MEDIA.    i am doing my best to extricate myself from the system.    thank you to ZEROHEDGE .......... i love this website.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:29 | 995794 Michael
Michael's picture

It's amazing the plethora of lies our government has told us over the years, especially the government lies the MSM patriots day in and day out.

Glad you are using your own mind and will to set yourself free.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:45 | 995831 gall batter
gall batter's picture

What's scarier to me is that so many people still believe the lies.  I'm going to extricate myself from the system by never voting again.  My parents would collapse if they were alive and heard this declaration.  But voting is a hopeless endeavor, providing an illusion of democracy. 

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:55 | 995858 lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

......... my dad (god rest his soul) would be horrified, too, if he knew of the current state of affairs.    my dad based his whole life (1940's-1950's kind of guy) on honesty, honor,  working hard, saving & paying his own way .......  sigh ...

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:02 | 995878 Seer
Seer's picture

Not voting anymore... that was one of the last things that I broke down and nixed.  I'll tell you, THAT was liberating!

George Carlin's comments about blaming those who vote and NOT those who don't vote really was a kicker. Voting is a social pressure to keep up/support TPTB's game.

And the clowns to the left of me and the jokers to the right keep voting, hoping to get Their "system" in place: meet the new system, same as the old system...

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:28 | 995944 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture



If you don't like any of the options on the ballot, you shouldn't just pick one out of 'civic duty'.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:37 | 996420 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

You can always write in "Tyler Durden"

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 01:28 | 996074 I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

Lynnybee, I've been reading your posts for a while. I believe I have an interwebs crush on you.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:29 | 995791 SilverBaron
SilverBaron's picture

What would happen if just one state declared that they would heretofore follow the constitution to the letter and the spirit and anyone who has the wealth (non-fiat) to support their families for at least two years and was willing to defend the constitution with their very lives could come and have 40 acres and a Johnson tractor?  Or better yet, a few adjoining states declared such?  These families would have to support themselves and never expect any form of welfare.  Medicine would be taught K through 12 so every family would eventually have thier own doctors.  I know, quite a pipe dream.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:36 | 995805 DOT
DOT's picture

It starts with a dream

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:03 | 995883 Seer
Seer's picture

Would that be 40 acres in the Nevada desert, or 40 in Ohio's farmland?

BTW - I've already got 40 acres and a tractor (I call "mule").

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:59 | 996019 SilverBaron
SilverBaron's picture

With the will and education we could turn the Nevada desert into paradise.  2/3 of the world is covered with water!  Hydrogen burns.  Desalination powered by the sun.  I know it is hard to break free from the oil is the only viable energy fallacy.  There are other ways.  I believe if we put half the resources toward alternative energy as we put into defense we would find the answer.  Tesla would have probably figured it out with the right financial resources. If you figured out how to make every household energy independent what do you think would happen?  I think you would be bought off, falsely ridiculed, or killed because of the threat to TPTB.  Ohio would obviously be preferable.  You remind me of the Romancing the Stone clockmaker--"This is my little mule." 

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:01 | 996212 born2bmild
born2bmild's picture

Hey Seer, Even if it's Nevada you're sitting pretty over there on the Saudi Arabia of alternative energy. I've read about guys like you just drilling one big geothermal well and selling the power to the surrounding counties. Drilling is getting cheaper all the time there was a breakthrough a couple of months ago... Or with that mule this might not be out of your reach:

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:32 | 995799 takinthehighway
takinthehighway's picture

Well, if you can see what's coming, may as well get ready...

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:45 | 995832 Jerry Maguire
Jerry Maguire's picture

The constitution has an amendment process that could end the monster state by depriving it of its basic fuel:  the power to create money at will.  I've drafted a constitutional amendment to do this:

Do you think this is a futile effort?  Is the US doomed to break apart, or could it survive if the constitution was amended?

I'm interested in people's thoughts on this.


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:23 | 995929 SilverBaron
SilverBaron's picture

The constitution already says that only gold and silver can be used as money does it not?  The problem is not the constitution, it is that it is not being followed.  The rule of law is dead.  The constitution is being broken in so many ways is is ridiculous.  If we would just follow the original minus the fourteenth we would be OK.  We were not supposed to be an empire.  We were not supposed to get into Europe's forays.  We were supposed to have valid checks and balances.  Now the supreme court is compromised.  They have been blackmailed.  They were appointed for life so they wouldn't be compromised.  Now they are told that if they don't follow the party line their posterity will suffer the consequences.  The constitution was brilliant!  The only way that it failed was through the failure of the rule of law.  If it was followed the current situation wouldn't have happened.  You are not supposed to have to hand over the fruits of your labor, but because of kangaroo courts and crooked (or ignorant) judges and citizens you now have to.  Watch Freedom to Fascism.  If we weren't compromised we would be the wealthiest country on earth and wouldn't have to borrow.  We would be the model for the rest of the world.  Your amendment would have been a good one in 1790, but now it would most likely accomplish the same thing as the failure to implement QE3--default and probable revolution.  

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 02:30 | 996175 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

Silver Baron:  Hi. 

U rite: 

"The constitution was brilliant!  The only way that it failed was through the failure of the rule of law."  Slewie agrees.  i doubt if i'm the only one, but it cerainly wouldn't be the first time!


now, let's kick the Constitution to the floor, some more, but, wait a minute Silver B!  i want a 2nd opinion!  i insist!  the RacoonZ Lodge meets tomorrow night and i'm gonna take the constitutional question to them.. the mogambo might be there, too.  who knows who'll show up next?

this is our secret shake and Password (From Archives): 

"Their official club greeting was a strange handshake which had them touch elbows (first right then left), followed by a "Wooooo" sounding cry as they wiggled the raccoon tail that dangled from the back of their lodge hat. They ended with the phrase "Brothers under the Pelt." 

and here's the pic so you know this is on the up n up, ok?  TV ACRES: Gestures & Handshakes > Raccoon Lodge Greeting (The Honeymooners) 

the thin, slightly hyperthyroid gentleman on the left is the Hon. Ed Norton, Esq. (yes, virginia, there are 2).  He works in the NYC Sewer.  The gentleman on the right is the Hon. Ralph Kramden, Esq.  He drives a bus.  Coupla routes.

if these guys and the Lodge, itself, can't get to the bottom of this, we're doomed! i'm the chaplain.  this is my convocation:   YouTube - paul simon homeless,

along with a short prayer of thanksgiving that we sing this song so well, together, once we get rolling, of course.  i'll get back to you, Silver B, on Saturday, about noon.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:07 | 996322 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture

I'm interested in people's thoughts on this.


I'll get back to you later. On your blog / email.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 07:39 | 996425 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Add 29:  "Congress shall make no Law abridging the freedome of production and trade."

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:52 | 995848 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

All empires collapse.

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:57 | 995855 JawsMusic
JawsMusic's picture

I learn a lot here, but its been so down lately....


Here is a conspiracy theory I have not yet heard here...

ZH was developed by big pharma to make smart people with $ depressed so they would buy expensive drugs.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:18 | 996332 CH1
CH1's picture

LOL... +10

Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:57 | 995860 JawsMusic
JawsMusic's picture

Dup post oops...

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 00:09 | 995898 mt paul
mt paul's picture

there can be 

no free society


with 14 freaking trillion 

of national debt

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 04:19 | 996072 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture

It's not debt because there will be cataclysm and-or revolution (and-or hyper-inflation) before it will ever be willingly (or ably) paid by the taxpayers. There is literally no way that a people will "pay" off that much debt in terms of dollars as they are accustomed to. Such terms as they are accustomed to amount to $100,000 per year (give or take $150,000), and if they understood the meaning of the quantity of the debt to the quantity of their money, they would agree with me.

Likewise (and OT to what you're strictly saying), all this debt does not represent tax-payer money. It's just an end game being played out by the fiat money cartel.


Q: Do you know why The Treasury "had to" bailout Wall Street in 2008?

A: To give the illusion that the bailout money was coming from somewhere "real".

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 02:50 | 996204 Dale Collins
Dale Collins's picture

We are a long ways from a free society.  The FED must go and we need to end the  Fractional Reserve Banking System.  The market place needs to set the best medium of exchange not the government.  I have little doubt it would choose Gold and Silver.  The odds of this happening are nil.  The masses don't have a clue how they are really being controlled in fact most of them like the warfare and or welfare state made possible by our monetary system. Until the masses realize how bad our monetary system is we can forget ever being truly free of government control.

Sun, 02/27/2011 - 16:44 | 1002086 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Dear Dale Collins,

You and whomever you choose to trade with are the marketplace. You set the best medium of exchange. Choose gold & silver. 


Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:14 | 996229 narnia
narnia's picture
it would be nice if we could all sit down like adults, be realistic about what we really want out of life, what the government actually adds to our lives vs. takes away, and tackle our circumstances proactively.  That won't happen for the main reason why our government doesn't work...  they think they can control things they cannot & they don't know what they don't know.       i look at the collapse of the dollar as a worldwide chapter 11 scenario.  all fiat currency denominated assets & liabilites go out the door.  some intergovernmental assets will need to be worked out.  at the end, the world is still left with some pretty substantial assets, but the direction of who produces and who consumes has to change.     in the usa, i would presume the majority of people & states still would want the best military in the world scaled down to just provide defense. the same would also want national parks & other national monuments.  as much as i'd like to see competing currencies, we still have the option to use the national gold & silver stock to institute a backed currency issued directly by the treasury & different from the existing dollar.  i would think the only scope of government in addition to that would be some form of social security for those not capable of producing- or some form of negative income tax for everyone.  i think the latter is appropriate as a currency re-starter.     we'll see a good hard month of shock, with those areas that produce more locally of what they need better off, followed by some real honest discussion by some real scared people about the direction of government. i don't see full succession, mainly because most people would see some benefit in a limited scope national structure & may lose quite a bit if they don't.    in the end, i think the recognition of the failed big government and the realization we can live & be free without it will be the springboard to a free society.       
Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:23 | 996334 CH1
CH1's picture

All I want is to be left alone... especially by governments.

The whole concept of government is immoral... it's just that it has been imposed on people for so long that they can see nothing else.

"No government at all?" [Reason Off. Freakout Mode On.] "You are DANGEROUS and CRAZY!"

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:16 | 996234 djrichard
djrichard's picture

I suggest you have the wrong monster.

This is what I just posted over at business insider at:

GOP of course won't believe that austerity isn't a good thing.  It's in their nature to believe that segments of population deserve austerity, ipso facto, austerity is good for the economy.  How cruel for them that it isn't so.

Democrats are craftier.  They simply sell the population into debt slavery to the debt providers.

And really, the democrats have the advantage in this regard in that the marketplace really wants what the democrats are enabling.  The marketplace wants us in debt peonage.  That's why fundamentally Goldman Sach will always be on the side of the democrats.  The GOP will be a flash in the pan every now and then as we flagellate ourselves, but really the marketplace for debt peonage always wins.

The only solution is to redefine the marketplace.  We need to stop debt peonage.  What is the marketplace that puts us in debt peonage?  Well, who are the debt providers?  Certainly there's the banks.  But there's one set of banks that are ultimately at the head of it (shall I say fountainhead?), and that's the Federal Reserve.  At the core, the Federal Reserve is simply a debt provider.  And the way they provide debt is crafty: they simply need rubes who think they are "playahs" who think they can screw other rubes in the marketplace by naked short selling the Fed's currency.   This works until the supply of rubes gets exhausted and the ponzi that was built up crashes instead.  At least until another round of rubes/playahs are found for the next ponzi.  [I don't think this is what Schumpeter had in mind when he was extolling the virtues of capitalism in the form of creative destruction.]  In this game, some rubes win, but a larger number end up indebted.  The Fed never loses and neither does their channel-to-market; the banks are fine as long as the rubes bail them out.  Hard to believe we inflict this on ourselves.

Maybe it's time to put a stop to this game.  Let's take away the Fed Reserve's punch bowl.  Let's put the power to issue currency back where it constitutionally and properly belongs which is with the Gov.   Instead of borrowing money from the Fed, we have the Goverment spending it into circulation and taxing it to re-circulate it.  We pay our own way and we get away from liquidty pumps based on naked short selling.  We'll still have "playahs" who think they can build their empires; but empires in the Gov can always be changed by the populace.  In this context regime change between democrats and GOP (or whatever parties there are) will be dynamic and functional and serve the population's interests again.  In contrast to empires of debt which are pernicious and survive regime change every time unless eradicated.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 08:35 | 996491 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture
"The conspicuously wealthy turn up urging the character building values of the privation of the poor."
John Kenneth Galbraith ...or phrased differently... "Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. Anything that is disagreeable must surely have beneficial economic effects."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Fri, 02/25/2011 - 03:21 | 996243 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Lybian revolutionaries used dating site to hide organizing activities from secret police:

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:35 | 996256 born2bmild
born2bmild's picture

Clever. I love the scent of jasmine, long after dark walks on the beach and Russian cocktails.

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 05:49 | 996349 honestann
honestann's picture

The predators-that-be will not give up willingly.  And they control endless weapons.  Whether they control a sufficient majority of american troups is still a question, but worrisome.  People need to stop talking, stop wordsmithing, and start taking action.  Start small if you wish, but ACT.  Convert all paper assets into gold and silver if you're too afraid to do anything more.  But enough talk.  They will not surrender!

Fri, 02/25/2011 - 06:18 | 996361 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

The hell of it is, the US Government is importing foreigners who hate the US, and, at the same time, causing the indigenous population to begin the hate it.

Good plan.

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