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Guest Post: What Public Employee Leaders Could Be Saying (But Aren't)
Submitted by Charles Hugh Smith from Of Two Minds
What Public Employee Leaders Could Be Saying (But Aren't)
Public employees and their leaders could publicly recognize the structural and demographic changes in the U.S. economy, and vow to tax the top 1% instead of supporting terribly regressive junk fees and sales tax increases on the working poor and the middle class tax donkeys who pay most of the taxes. The fact that they refuse to acknowledge these realities and refuse to take on the Financial Elites speaks volumes.
Here's what representatives of public-sector unions and public employees could be saying, instead of what they are saying:
There are over 20 million Federal, state and local government employees, and about 106 million private sector workers. We work for you, and for the good of our communities and of the nation. That is a big responsibility.
Back in the stock market bubble of 1995 to 1999, our wages, pensions and benefits were "sweetened," sometimes administratively and sometimes with voter approval. In the years since, what looked at the time like it would be paid by stock market gains rather than additional taxes has been revealed as wishful thinking.
We recognize that the U.S. economy has changed structurally, and it cannot return to 1999. We also recognize that the demographics of the nation have irrevocably changed since 1999, and thus it is wrong to burden future workers with pension and benefit costs which only made sense in an era of stock prices rising 10% or more annually.
In response to the shortfall between what we were granted in 1995-1999 and what the "new normal" recessionary economy can support, state and local governments have aggressively raised the most terribly regressive taxes: junk fees--parking tickets, vehicle license fees, and so on--and sales taxes.
These taxes are paid by everyone, rich and poor alike, and so they are deeply regressive.
Most of the Federal and state income taxes are paid by upper-middle class workers and small business, including sole proprietors and independent contractors. Almost 40% of all workers--those with lower incomes--pay no income tax at all. The top 1%, meanwhile, pay on average about 17% of their income in total taxes--less than half the rate paid by upper-middle class wage earners.
We understand that roughly two-thirds of the nation's households are measurably poorer in income and assets than they were a few short years ago. We understand that gains in productivity have not flowed to the incomes of most private-sector workers, but have instead flowed to the top via corporate profits and bonuses to the top slice of private-sector employees.
We also understand that the American workforce is aging, and that demographics are dictating that we as a nation need to work longer if our retirement plans are to remain solvent.
In recognition of these realities, we in the public sector are voluntarily renouncing all the "sweeteners" which were awarded during the bubble years of 1995-1999, as they have been revealed as unaffordable. Our retirement and benefits will revert to the base year of 1995, before the bubble distorted the system and the economy, and be adjusted for inflation since then as measured by the Consumer Price Index (CPI).
In recognition of the nation's demographic realities, we are moving our retirement age up to those of the Social Security system: 62 for reduced benefits and 67 for full retirement benefits.
We understand that raising "stealth taxes" via junk fees and highly regressive sales taxes places great burdens on households which are already straining to make ends meet.
As a result, we are putting our political weight behind an alternative way to bolster state and local government finances: "make the top 1% pay the same tax rate as the rest of us." If the top 1% paid the same 40% rate as higher-income workers pay, then that would only be equitable.
We will also fight to reverse the regressive increases in sales taxes and junk fees which have been imposed on those least able to afford more taxes.
The super-wealthy--those households with incomes above $1 million annually, and with financial assets above $5 million-- are the most politically powerful group in the nation, and so getting them to pay the same tax rates as we pay will be a difficult battle. They own or control the political class, the tax attorneys, the tax-avoidance scams and the offshore accounts.
But taking more money from households who are struggling to get by with highly regressive taxes and junk fees is simply wrong, just as it is unjust that the super-wealthy avoid paying the same tax rates that ordinary workers pay.
We ask for your support in this campaign to reverse regressive taxes and make the top 1% pay the same tax rate as the rest of us.
What is not being said is this: public employees are dependent on, and benefit from, the State's monopoly to collect taxes and fees via coercion. Private-sector workers cannot rely on a coercive monopoly to extract their wages from others. This is the key difference between the public and private sectors.
To the degree that junk fees and taxes have been raised administratively by a political class that is beholden to the super-wealthy Financial Elites and cartel-State fiefdoms, then the imposition of regressive junk fees and other taxes is taxation without representation, i.e. tyranny.
Public employees benefit from this tyranny, private-sector workers do not. That is a key difference between the two.
Given that the political class only represents cartel-State fiefdoms and Financial Elites, then the only taxes which aren't a form of tyranny are those approved by voters.
While there is always a danger of "the tyranny of the majority" in the ballot box, it is certainly less tyrannical than administratively imposing regressive taxes and exorbitant junk fees on the working poor and the middle class tax donkeys.
The consent of the governed (and thus of the taxed) can be revoked at any time.
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dont hold your breath; remember the union folks are doing it for the "kids"
oh yes and it also helps that they are paid for by soros and dnc
a quarter a junk - LOL
I get a kick out of near riots by the government against the government.
No union concessions until bankers are indicted. THEN one can be reasonable.
I think if we just did a transaction tax (to include financial transactions, sales, etc.) with flat rate refund distributions if net revenues exceed net expenses, we'd probably be in a lot better shape.
http://www.apttax.com/
MSM and people like rev jackson comparing union protesters to those in MENA getting blown up and shot at - US MSM is the biggest liar/deceiver of all time
MSM upset that fewer americans are worshipping obama
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/09/us-obama-poll-idUSTRE7284SZ201...
Go ahead and tax the rich. They control the prices. They'll just take it right back with a little bit of "fuck you" extra.
So if the rich are all-powerful, then we're just fucked, no?
Pretty much.
Well, then I vote for the cheapest and most effective capitalistic system of all, 0% taxes on incomes over $250k, 0% corporate taxes, 0% capital gains tax, and 0% estate tax.
That'll straighten things right up.
>Go ahead and tax the rich.
Yeah, committing more robbery is a good thing, as long as someone else is the victim.
Taxing the rich is almost as much a flaming lie as taxing business.
But, if the moron voter goes along with it, screw them.
It use to be a lie in the age of inflation when business had pricing power and the rich created jobs in the U.S. Now it isn't a lie because this is the age of deflation when business has no pricing power and the rich are moving jobs for the U.S. to China.
Taxing the rich never brings in the expected revenue because (1) the rich will leave to a state or country that doesn't tax them so much (2) the rich will hide their money from taxation (3) if you take away the monetary incentive to work hard the already rich will check out and play golf all day long.
Closing these kinds of loopholes for the rich would be easy to do if there was the policital will to make the changes. Their could be penalties for American corporations who only make investments outside the USA, and incentives to invest at home, for example. As far as the monetary incentive, I don't see where that was taken away in times when taxes were higher. In the 50s 60s and 70s taxes were higher but we did not see the wealthy becoming lazy.
"3) if you take away the monetary incentive to work hard the already rich will check out and play golf all day long."
---------
The dollar has been consistently devalued for more than 40 years. Monetary incentive to work hard? Add in income taxation and the tax to the human body from (hard) physical labor and you've got one witch's brew that anyone with half a brain can see. It continually confounds me how people are able to get out of bed every day and "go to work"! Seriously. The alternative/antidote is revolution.
Is it theft when you steal stolen property from a thief?
You've swallowed the pill and washed it down with the kool-aid.
You believe exactly what the rich want you to believe...that you are powerless.
>The consent of the governed (and thus of the taxed) can be revoked at any time.
Not when they invariably vote for socialists.
All nations die, in pretty much the same way.
Please don't get me started on public unions....see if you can guess what I'm thinking now......
you must be thinking, what were you thinking when you got out of high school and thought it best to make it on your own terms
Here we go again!! Just ask the people in Greece about UNIONS!
Who junked me? Fess up losers - is that all it takes these days......
SSN getting interesting......
One must always remember the Golden rule when it comes to conditioning the public mind.
We are always allowed to complain about the system. Bitch about this, declare that unfair, protest about the special favors those over there are getting, whatever. But you are never ever allowed to seriously question the basic system. If you do, if you begin to question not how the pie is divided but the pie itself, if it should even exist in the first place, then are are immediately labeled a subversive or a socialist or commie or anarchists or whatever. And this comes not only from the MSM, government and all it's various talking heads, but from the very same people who are part of the system and might benefit from a re-examination of the entire systemic picture.
The captured mind will always fight to remain safely within the confines of the system that has captured and conditioned it.
Exactly right. NEVER question the pie itself, that is a given.
All the more reason to expand the scope of debate at every possible opportunity.
way too much baking soda in that pie
I would want to know who baked the pie. But will not ask that question, as I do not wish to be labeled a subversive or a socialist or commie or anarchists or whatever..
the pie is a piece of shit
whose piece of shit is this pie? That's what I want to know. oops, now, for asking that question, I will be
my bad.
You will only be able to tax the rich when you can end corruption in Gov!
Until then...pay up or leave...like I did :))!
And the ones (taxes) coming (soon) to a community near you once this gravy train stops,
well those ones will break your back, arms, legs, hands and ultimately your neck!
Since nobody is willing to really take it to the streets this will go on until it can't
no more, or there is nothing to steal, tax or "kill"!
Can and most likely will take a few more years of lying, cheating and stealing
but in the END there will be NO ONE LEFT STANDING!
How do you prepare, well accumulate as much as you can,
you will need every bit of it, can't fight them, it's not really necessary to "join" them,
just have enough to defy them!
Hammerfall - Last Man Standing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOmMZBZGBps
Recommended solution: all those in the real world (non-gooferment) stop going to work. Continue working and nothing will change. The unionized do it....why doesn't the rest do the same? It is rather obvious how well this works.
We have.....
Lots of sense in here. However,
"The top 1%, meanwhile, pay on average about 17% of their income in total taxes..."
"If the top 1% paid the same 40% rate as higher-income workers pay, then that would only be equitable."
Equitable but grossly extortionate. Instead, the flat tax rate should be 17%, with spending cuts to balance the budget at that level.
Public employee union leads only care about....public employee union leaders.
What is so hard to understand about this concept?
BTW I am in favor of a 6 month tax holiday for all income brackets. That should curb this prodigal government from anymore wasteful spending on bullshit.
Sorry, Bob. Only would be effective if you could also turn off the printing press & shut down the bond market.
And Ben has their back, and they will fuck you like an $8 Thai, three-holer hooker.
Last time I went to one of those she charged me $10. I'm in the inflationist camp.
When your entire lifestyle, career, and support system has been built upon a lie of credit, manipulated news, and taxes, and you are faced with the destruction of all of this, then you do anything you possibly can to prolong the status quo. This basic presumption explains not only public employee unions, but also banksters on down the line. Ultimately, they are all welfare queens and their race to the moon in a homemade rocket ship has fallen short of oxygen and fuel.
+1
+1
+1
+1
As long as the income tax exists, it will be abused by politicians and the ultra-wealthy alike.
The 16th amendment should be repealed, and we should have the FairTax or similar consumption tax instead.
interesting stat, Bloomberg TV referenced that the entire space shuttle program cost was less than TARP when the last shuttle launched; here are the numbers I found
TARP - $700 billion
Space Shuttle cost for entire life of program is estimated to be $174 billion
I understand both are goverment programs, the problem is defining the scale of Wall Street corruption
Except that TARP was a loan program, and only $245 billion went to banks. The rest went mostly to FNMA, Freddie Mac and GM. $564 billion in total went out and $237 billion (almost from the banks) has been returned with interest and dividends so far. You should be paying more attention to the $1 trillion in "stimulus" money, if you want to talk corruption, have you seen any of that lately?
Annoys the fuck out of me when people try and rationalize TARP, in the face of things such as the AIG/Goldman bailout or the $1.2 trillion dollar MBS bailout.
Then again, you're probably one of the fucking scum who aided and abetted these schemes. Thanks for shitting on us in your three piece suit. Never mind the sword hanging over your head.
#winning
My (modest) proposals, for starters:
1. Only property owning private sector employees may vote. Government (and government-connected industries like defense) employees are ineligible.
2. Flat tax of 0% for eveyone.
And then the rich and powerful buy up all land, and the middle class can no longer vote. You suffer from the same problem our politicians suffer from. Lack of foresight.
As opposed to the non-working leeches voting themselves more of what we work for. Fuck that. You wanna vote; then, have skin in the game...
Your dream of disenfranchised and powerless working people is already coming true. The owners of this country have already made sure that campaign contributions are more valuable than votes. That's why our politicians whore themselves out to the owners.
I am always amused when working people such as yourself go after working people, instead of going after their real enemy. But as Jay Gould said: "I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half."
Looks like you have a job.
And my modest proposal is double everyone's wealth. Just think how rich we'll be then!
Certain libertarian beliefs seem alien to me. It's almost like they don't believe in the value or concept of society.
What a shame people are unable to separate "the State" from "society"
The State does not guarantee any semblance of security, order, or anything you've been taught over the years. Security and order exist is in spite of the State's intervention into the private affairs of consenting individuals....and history is rife with examples of state-sponsored killing, spying, and suppression. Pick your example: I recommend beginning with any government "War on -----"
Present conditions will accommodate your desire to remain a feral serf, cowering like a whipped bitch before the table of parasites. If that's the kind of society you value, then so be it.
The goal of my suggestions was to improve "society" by increasing individuality at the expense of those who have and continue to live off of the wealth of others. Those who value individuality and uniqueness can easily see why the scope of debate must be expanded beyond its current bounds.
"What a shame people are unable to separate "the State" from "society""
"Those who value individuality and uniqueness can easily see why the scope of debate must be expanded beyond its current bounds."
Good comments. Your first statement is a good starting point in expanding the debate.
"Wealth" is created by labor. The great majority of Americans are not leeches and would like to have full time, fullfilling employment. The jobs are no longer there, thanks to the overclass whose wet dreams came true with Globalization.. they have exported millions of American jobs. NAFTA + CAFTA = SHAFTA
Who would baby sit your brats at the great day school called public education? You think teachers suck now. If that happens only pedophiles will take a job teaching.
Article Flagged As Junk
Public Unions to get pay cut and then tax the rich for what?
Tax the rich to avoid the pay cut is the better idea.
The best idea is to shit can the whole bankrupt system as what is owed is many multiples of it collective value and is therefore by definition insolvent and bankrupt.
The system is beyond repair reform or saving it is time to kill it.
Yes, let's by all means eat the rich, then the almost rich, then the wannabe rich, then, then, then..., then the looters come for you!
So much Communist horse shit on an alledged financial blog. It always gets lapped up by the spoiled twelve year olds.
If you're one of them... the looters are on the way!
Great article. Unfortunately, I think that the "working" class is too swamped with trying to make a living and manage their financial situation and families, that they dont have the time to take an activist approach. I guess, they will wake up when the pain becomes intense, like all common people.
The right wing is funded by the uber-rich IBs, CEOs and BizOwners who are hiring people to do their bidding.
Instead of posting this article in a place which is read almost exclusively by financially motivated people, I would recommend you try to get this posted in: Mother Jones, NY Times or get an interview in MSNBC. I feel that the american people need to get the message that the right wing is very close to making this country into an Asian country. Few super rich people, 10-15% rich off the skimmings and the vast majority just scrounging around.
Use your energy and intellect to make something happen, not just comment on whats happening. The average income in America is around $50K. I am sure you can related to the average family that is managing to "stay" middle class on that income, even if it is a dual income family. This stress has been excacerbated since the recession.
Lets change america.
Only communists are more evil than bankers.
Bankers are communist's
Not even close.
The banks repeatedly depend on the public teat to survive- they are Communists. And Welfare Queens like Jamie Dimon who soil their diapers every ten years or so, then let us clean it up. Well, shit on them.
And the left wing is funded by nanny state, Ivory tower oligarchs and Union cronies disconnected from Main Street America as well ...
You're not nearly as smart as you think you are and you're blind to what the "system" actually is ...
But don't blame me ... I voted for Kodos.
+1
People seem to have been successfully brainwashed into believing that the labor movement is the cause of all our problems... when actually it is the attack on American labor that is causing all the weath to rise to the top. Who are the real beneficiaries of the "nanny state"? Who is getting all the money? Corporations and banks, not schoolteachers.
You're telling the ZH editor(s) they're not making anything happen ?
That's rich.
yes, lets order some more koolaid and hope and change
This is not a great article. It's crap. It assumes that the problem we face is one of revenue shortfall rather than overspending.
If we cover the shortfall with higher taxes we will just spend more money on more shit we don't NEED. Wash, rinse, repeat.
I am not taking a side in this argument, because it's based on the logic of a four year old. We need to sit down, drop the baby ass, whining games and figure out some priorities. Teachers, cops, firefighters etc... are a priority. 95% of the other shit governments (local, state, federal) do are not real priorites.
We are a nation of Asshats. The sad part is that we should have been having these discussions decades ago when it actually mattered. Today it's just good theater.
+55 colonel. Bullshit libtard red diaper doper baby article, seeing more and more of them here.
It is fun to watch the dumbacrats go against the retardicans though.
It's more like being forced to eat a shit sandwich at gunpoint. You know it isn't good for you, you sure as Hell aren't enjoying it, and you don't have a choice.
Bankers and union(sters) are one in the same a protected class using our $. Don't tell me the bankers are worse and unions protect the middle class. They are one and the same feeding from the fermenting corpse of freedom.
Exactly, one filthy hand washes the other. Throw a government official into the mix and then the only question is who's turn is it to be Lucky Pierre?
+1000 I've made that point on the wisconsin thread and got like 30 junks.
You deserved them. Who is making off with all the loot? Unions? Really?
agree with your thesis; but at least the unions give us the pretense of helping the little guy, and screw us behind close doors in secret; where as the banks position is F U right up front - we don't follow your rules. Bankers would have us believe it is their sole right to conjure into existence our money supply, and they tell government that it should not be in the banking business, and that money creation is best left to banks. Government should tell the bankers that money creation is the greatest sovereign authority of government, and banks should get out the government business of money creation. This should be a policy referendum to be voted on. Long live the State Bank of North Dakota, and the others that are soon to follow.
[sadly, our owners don't report income anywho, with less than 100 people reporting income over 100 million, and fed paying 400 billion in interest payments.... try to reconcile with out account for off shore tax havens.....]
Unions don't give a rat's ass about the generic "little guy". Unions are paid lobbyists for the senior members of the union. They are a protection racket, nothing more. Unions are more than happy to have their young, junior members laid off to preserve the pay and benefits of their senior members.
I will tell you bankers are worse. You can believe what you want.
Nobody wants to be strongarmed by anyone else. As the owner of a business, I don't want anyone else telling me what I have to pay. High labor costs can be dangerous for any business that isn't perfectly healthy.
But almost EVERY ONE of us has to put our money into this financial system, whether it's to save or invest. We get no choice at all here. You carry around a few pieces of paper on you and the rest is stored on electronic spreadsheets somewhere, safeguarded by the banking cartel. We get 0% interest for savings, negative if you add inflation. Our investments (our wealth) are constantly eroded by fees and catastrophes created by the bankers themselves. We receive gains only by the graces of going into deeper debt, while we watch the elite take 90% of all newly created money for themselves.
Go ahead and rag on unions, and deposit your next check into the US banking system with complete confidence.
Don't forget that you get 0% on savings because the TBTF bankers/corporatist need a pool of money they can dip into when they need to float a loan. They run the interest rate so low so we will have to put or savings into "funds" to get a return. The "funds are their piggy banks.
Absolutely. Bankers & unions are exactly the same, overpaid greedy douchebag pigs snuffling at the public trough.
Look at all the junks from the socialists. What's mine is yours? Fuck you.
Niall Ferguson says china will overtake US in a decade
http://nakedempire.wordpress.com/
Heh, again of that "tax the richer of the richest". Nobody seems to get that if you punch a 500lbs silverback gorilla in the face, you'll get shredded to pieces.
How about not punching anyone in the face and dropping any plans tha involves punching people ?
Nobody seems to get that if you punch a 500lbs silverback gorilla in the face, you'll get shredded to pieces.
----
We get it. Do you think the gorilla gets he can be killed when the rest of the animal kingdom turns on him? And fear doesn't matter when an animal's family is starving to death.
Taxing the rich has been tried before. Taxes for the rich in the 50s were very high. Result: the rich became very interested in politics and since, they have been preemptively skinning the middle class. They raised taxes on the middle class while lowering theirs. This was to be expected, since they had the money to buy politicians, you do not and will never.
Does that clarify my metaphor ?
The other result of high taxes on the rich and corporations in the 50s and 60s was the success of the American middle class. One job per household was enough to support a family and buy a house, along with other consumer products. People could afford to send their kids to college, unions were strong, etc. Just because this was undermined by the powerul and the greedy doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
The swing to the right really began in the 1970s with various foundations and interests composed of right-wing Christians in alliance with facist/corporate types. The rich weren't exactly suffering in the 50s and 60s and not all of them were greedy, as many people do understand that when everyone does better, it's better for everyone. During that same post WWII era upward mobility was actually possible... today, not so much. If you are lower middle class, good luck moving up.
The prosperity of the 50s and 60s has nothing to do with grabbing money from the rich since this didn't last very long as the elite reacted pretty quick. Any upsides from this were temporary and destroyed many generations' future.
The 50s-60s boom was due to the government budget melting after WW2 and the enjoyment of a much stronger and stable currency.
You got your history backwards. Unions in the 50-60s were weaker than in the 70s. The UAW really took ahold of the auto industry along with the DNC in the early 70s, for example.
Tax the rich....does that included that fat bastard Michael Moore?..oops, I digress....when the money from the "rich" is gone....what's next???????????
I don't know, but I hope it includes those lying bastards Buffett and Gates. If taxing the rich until they are broke doesn't do anything but set up a new bunch of elites I say it's worth it. Something the elites don't want folks to understand is that they don't create demand and thus business activity. If ever member of the elite disappeared in the next 30 seconds the demand for food, housing, clothing, tools, weapons, etc. would not change. The demand for mansions and yachts would bottom out though.
20 million public employees vs. 101 million, but when you factor in their families and those who salaries also depend on them , the figures probably come out to 61 million vs. 62 million .....and that is what brings us to today
How about Glass-Steagall CHS to remove the FRAUDULENT debt. THEN, we can do haircuts on lots of the rest. Then, federal gov't can soak up the state debt.
THEN, we can see where our taxes are. Maybe higher, but probably right around where we are. But before saying that, we should do the above. Because when all the bs is thrown out the window, you might be surprised how much expenditures can drop.
I agree 1% deserves a 10 percent increase before a middle class guy deserves a 1 percent increase. But let's FIRST cut the bullshit out, and see where we stand.
Glass-Steagall
(funny how if all the crap is taken out, the amount spent for medical treatment will drop like a rock...especially if the gov't re-goes Hill-Burton in conjunction)
But of course since we live in retardo land, regressive taxes are all the rage, since the poor dumbshit actually believes the rich will hire people if we 'continue and forever' always give them their piece of the pie first. 0.1 percent, isn't a trickledown...it's the amount they 'let' out of the dam.
We ask for your support in this campaign to reverse regressive taxes and make the top 1% pay the same tax rate as the rest of us.
The rest of who?...the 40% you mentioned who pay zero?
Sounds like we need a flat(er) tax which really would be more "fair" or even fair.
Progressive and regressive taxes just give birth to endless loopholes, financial derivatives and tax shelters.
The legacy system you're bemoaning is the direct result and unintended consequence of the kind of scheme you're advocating now.
Soak the rich. No, that's never been thought of or tried before.
ROFL, I've never seen a low sales tax create a tax shelter or derivatives. Hell the odds are 1 in a million those guys would ever use such things. Divide by 10 and that's the number who's even heard of them.
Flat tax is for banksters.
The gov't needs to exist, and those that profit from it the most, and use it THE most, need to pay the MOST. (yeah UPS would do GREAT if they had to pay for all the roads)
40 percent pay zero? Who the fuck cares. That's more because 40 percent have been kicked to the curb because of monetarism and free trade.
If 1 percent can pay it all, the who the fuck cares? Besides, with the pooling of more money up at the top, one should EXPECT a higher percentage of taxes.
But NOOOOO...they want to shift the taxes lower, and the income higher.
Glass-Steagall and people need to forget their Chairman Reagan indoctrination.
UPS pays for the roads every time they put gas in their trucks. $0.184/gallon. More accurately, you and I pay that tax every time we ship something via UPS.
Now, had government not built the highways to subsidize the MIC, perhaps we would have a thriving rail industry, or found some other better way. But that would not give a bunch of unproductive politicians the means with which to buy your vote.
Right we want a bigger rail system. Gee IIRC the rail barons just shot the owners and stole the land they needed for the rail beds. Yes sir, we need more of that. Granted the trucking industry pays considerable taxes, but they derive more benefit from the road system than the average taxpayer so they should pay more. The problem lies in those industries who derive benefit from things paid for with taxes who don't pay more than the average taxpayer. Multi nationals benefit considerably from relative global stability while the price for that stability is paid for by the American taxpayer in the defense budget. The rail roads are exempt for fuel taxes because they argue they don't benefit from the road system, but the truth is they benefit as much as the trucking industry does. Without roads and trucks the railroad has little to no way to deliver the goods they transport to the consignee. They rely on trucks and therefore the road system to deliver and pick up goods to the rail heads. Companies benefit from the school system, police protection, and fire protection, but are more likely than not recipients of special reduced tax deals from states and cities on property and corporate taxes, which pay for these services so critical to those businesses.
Once again the idea of pass through of costs or in this case taxes by business is possible and likely during periods of inflation, but not near as possible or likely during periods of deflation. So, the idea of pass through isn't true universally.
Nanny it is faulty reasoning... the average driver is subsidizing UPS by paying the lion's share of gasoline taxes.
Those who own 90% of this country don't even want to pay 25% in taxes to a government that has totally enabled their acquisition of wealth.
Yep, trashing teachers seams to be the activity of the week. Good luck improving the US education system with that attitude. Last time I checked America was worse than average in quality of education. May I remind you that all the other countries ahead in the science, math and literatrure "arms" race are a lot more "socialist" than "land of the "free"" (not to mention that ranked 1st is the communist Shang Hai school system - http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/31/28/46660259.pdf). And yet Americans continue to push for even lower standards.
In my opinion the main American export is stupidity and it will increasingly be so in the coming decades. You people will never learn...
Even with the massive additional dollars wasted on Education, test results have remained stagnant.
Waste, Fraud, Abuse.
You fucks lie.
Inflation causes increases. Increase in money spent, for less in return. Like Wal*Mart Coffee.
Tests don't tell you shit. Anyone using test scores as a basis for anything, knows shit.
Waste. Fraud. Abuse.
The waste is that we're spending time teaching our children 'the test'
The fraud is the that 'the test' actually means something
Abuse. That's gov't walker and all the idiots blaming teachers for the banksters created problems.
Sell it to the morons.
If they teach the test, you would expect an increase. By your standard, the average student is actually dumber.
Good call.
So the answer is to use Texas textbooks that teach creationism.
It doesn't matter how good the teacher is if you teach children the wrong things.
I wish it weren't so, but teachers are the problem in most instances. Most are uneducated, with minimal competence in any field of study. They became "educators" because that was the path of least resistance to a secure job where there are no consequences for failure. I have nothing but contempt for the legions of medicated, minivan moms who take their kids to the indoctrination centers (aka schools) every morning. The system needs to be torn down and rebuilt.
Hahaha... Just replace teachers/educators with bankers, and you might have a better idea of where things are at the moment. Let me remind you that the average financeer's income is tens of times greater than teachers'. So why not start balancing budgets with their share of the pie? Oh yes, I forgot, because they spent billions on lobbying and own most of the media outlets, selling to people the benefits of giving up all their rights and wealth. Those who are endoctrinated are the free market theologians chasing numbers and paper in exchange for humanity and decency.
You guys need to travel outside the US and stop getting your opinions from TV/Radio pundits.
It's not an either or proposition bud. Both will be kicked to the curb eventually, out of basic mathmatical necessity...
I agree with that. Unfortunatelly we are not in a position to have priorities anymore. But if we were I would put teachers before bankers...
I guess at least one banker disagrees with you...
Teachers uneducated?
Maybe in your state, but here in good ol' NY one must have not only a bachelors degree, but a Masters degree as well to even get a job teaching.
Not that a Masters degree proves any real world smarts, but hey, at least it shows 5+ years of college education.
The belief ingrained in our society that a college degree proves intelligence is the greatest scam ever perpetrated on the middle class.
Colleges today (and since the 70's) don't educate, they indoctrinate. There is no open exploration of ideas, no critical thought processes taught. There is boilerplate newspeak pablum puked up by graduate assistants, grading on the curve, and diversity training.Participation certificates for everyone.
5+ years of college education is a serious handicap in today's marketplace.
Completely agree with the indoctrination observation. Why do you think the masses think low interest rates help them? Or inflation is low and under control? Or you never lose in real estate?
They are taught at a young age there is only one correct answer. This doesn't start in college either.
Those countries with higher scores have homogenious populations. We have tried to elevate our underclass by promoting "self esteem". We want equal outcomes, not equal opportunity so all outcomes have settled to a lower level. We have eroded discipline and forced classes to include those with mental and physical disabilities which simply waste the time of the more capable students. The only solution I see is dissolution of the public education system. Let's have vouchers for all children.
Those countries with higher scores have homogenious populations. We have tried to elevate our underclass by promoting "self esteem". We want equal outcomes, not equal opportunity so all outcomes have settled to a lower level. We have eroded discipline and forced classes to include those with mental and physical disabilities which simply waste the time of the more capable students. The only solution I see is dissolution of the public education system. Let's have vouchers for all children.
Also many of those countries have a selection system that forces low ability/desire students out of the system at some point. This makes their averages in the higher grades look better. While here in the good old US of A every moron and retard has a right to an education including college. Comparing the U.S. education system to many of the socialist and communist countries is comparing apples to oranges. If we forced every under performing student out in the 10th grade our 12th grade scores would be a lot better.
your linking causation of educational performance to teacher salary is flawed, the dumbing down of america is a trend for many reason's, teacher pay not being one of them at the top.
Exactly. Look at our culture -- I suppose it's the teachers' fault that most kids today think being a rapper or a sports star or other glamour profession is so much cooler than being an engineer or a biologist? China and India don't have that problem and are turning out scientists and engineers.
well then how about challenging our school sytems to teach math and science instead charging them with social engineering.
Not your typical post but relevant.
We are in an age where states / municipalities / counties will fee us to death just to keep their heads above water.
As I posted before, the cheapest vehicle registrations in iowa went from $16 a year to $50 per year, that's an obscene increase, and all registration fees went up too, not just the lowest. This kind of increase hurts the poorest because they often buy cars that aren't worth much and they don't last because they're typically at the end of their useful life.
vehicle registration is attached to a calander year, not a title
The union leaders have strong marxist backgrounds ---- Stern, Trumpka, Weingarten, et el. For them it's all about power and division by class. But this trip is the big one. It's about bankrupting us into marxism and they can taste the revolution coming when the system crashes.
They could care less that the socialist economic model has been thoroughly discredited. The redistribution continues 24/7 as the money is printed and passed out to the crony wall streeters and GE's while diluting the wealth of the middle class and poor.
There is no need to tax anybody. They can tax by continuing to steal the value of the currency. The top 1% can hide their assets while the average person doesn't even know it is happening. That's how deceit and fiat works in the social welfare economy.
There is no "for them" , it's always been about power wealth and class.
You seem to think this is new and not a feature of humans.
Magical , simply magical.
gwar5: Where do you get your bullshit from? Glenn Beck or Rush limpbaugh? I know Trumpka personally and he is no marxist. Since when has the socialist model been thoroughly discredited? Ever heard of Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway or Germany ? How about going back to Eisenhower's day and taxing the rich up to 92% of their excess profits? It was a prosperous time for America and we should bring it back!
We are not them. We are becoming Mexico.
Germany (the only country that is functioning well in an otherwise busted Europe) is hardly considered a socialist country, the average age of Swedish corporations is something like 70 years old (i.e., no new innovation in 2 generations), and Denmark has the population of the North Side of Chicago. FYI the nominal tax rate during the 50's was that high, but the effective rate was drastically lower since you could deduct virtually everything back then. Not now.
Say what you want about Sweden, most of northern Europe is in far better shape than the USA.
If you think the rich don't have plenty of deductions these days, you're nuts...
The classic defense in an argument of changing the subject is in play with the public union debate. When public service budgets expand and the ability to fund contracts declines, there’s always the cry for raised taxes to keep necessary services intact.
No greater example can be found than a phrase in the lawsuit against Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger’s furlough policy for California public employees (SEIU) to temporarily reduce the number of employee workdays. The 2010 public employee complaint lamented “the governor’s unreasonable insistence to avoid tax increases to pay the judgment and to keep the state services intact.”
San Francisco Chronicle columnist Debra J. Saunders this week writes: “Apparently the ticket to economic equality [tax the 'rich'] is for Americans to ignore the heavy load of debt that taxpayers much shoulder because politicians have handed out benefits and pensions to public workers regardless of the cost…
“The new message: A government can’t really be broke because politicians have the power to raise taxes.”
A key factor on the Federal level, Dr. Ron Paul pointed out in hearings last week, is the symbiotic relationship of the Congress to the Federal Reserve. Congress is able to increase spending at will knowing that the Fed will print the money to cover any excesses, regardless the impact on the purchasing power of the dollar.
The top 1%, those with an adjusted gross income threshold on percentiles of $380,354 paid 38.02% of Federal Personal Income Tax in the Tax Year 2008; the top 5% of $156,619 paid 58.72% of the Federal Personal Income Tax; the top 10% of $113,799 paid 69.94%. The bottom 50% with an adjusted gross of less than $33,048 paid 2.7% in 2008.
http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html
comparing the top 1% to the holders of WEALTH is at best a ruse or more like an attempt to muddy the deabte.
It's a rube goldberg type of trick debate or failing that it implies a fundamental misunderstanding of the AGI in relation to wealth.
"Real" wealth does not necessarily require one to even file a tax return. Generation after generation of the uberwealthy living off family trusts, closely held businesses, etc.
and once again it comes down to an argument between the moron left and the moron right. Folks you all need some of my old gandpa's advice, like he use to give me, boy, try to use your head for something other than just a place to put your hat. Between all those shows, Rush, Beck, The Ed show, Hardball, etc. there is not one original idea. Be careful folks, there is one of the infallible truths in the universe is, you get what you deserve. For you Bible readers it's, you reap what you sow.
Like we are hearing so many original ideas on ZH? Mostly it's a bunch of bitching.
Percentiles of $380,354? The top 1% make far more than that... that income figure would fit more in the top 5 or 10% bracket, unless I'm missing something.
Taxpayers need to unionize!!
no unions required , free will of those of courage would get it done.
Sadly free will is kaput and courage is a joke.
Exactly, kaizai_luver. IMO, a major motive for the tax-the-rich demand looks a lot more like "soak the rich," meaning we need economic leveling in America, an appeal to the mob. During the 2008 presidential campaigning, Barack Obama classified as "rich" anyone earning $150,000 a year or more.
The Dems failed thier people 100%. pelosi et al had a good chance to lower health care costs for Americans and tax the ultra rich, esp those who got Mega Bonuses an NPR Dem Guest said the other night.
I agree.
The trouble with Socialism (today's Dems) is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money. A generation of make-any-promise-to-get-elected politicians has ramped up forward federal, state and local benefit obligations to a level that a 100% income tax on the "rich" wouldn't cover. The math is an ideology-free argument, it doesn't lie. We are broke unless we change the cradle to grave proposition. Go back to work!
The trouble with Socialism (today's Dems) is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money.
-----
Bullshit. The rich are leading us to believe they're out of money. And if we don't believe it, they'll crash the markets if we try to tax them.
The money is there. The will to properly tax the wealthy is not, at least not yet. The rich are winning this war and taking no prisoners.
and why would bill gates support the inheritance tax, because his class of uber-rich hide their income and assets, utilizing non profit foundations has been the MO, check out
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=yhs-avg&type=yahoo_avg_hs2-tb-web_us&p...
defending the socailists and uber rich should be classified as a disorder, S.A.D.D.
Anyone notice how the European original always outdoes the American version.
---The BBC Office with Ricky Gervais vs the U.S./NBC show with Steve whoever.
---Le Diner de Cons vs Dinner for Schmucks with the Steve guy again.
---Any speech by François Mitterrand in the 80s vs this teleprompter ready excuse for more taxes.
I guess it's too hard to go after the 250k a year pensions for school superintendents that are burdening the system. Maybe it's too difficult to consolidate school districts so one superintedent is in charge of more than 2 schools? Nah, time for a mf'n wealth tax that we know will grow to impact the middle class, just like tthe AMT.
In a way it's funny to read about the people that say the tax system is so evil. Yet, how many of them actually take the next step and protest by not paying? Other than Wesley Snipes who got convicted, can you name one other person who hasn't paid? Probably not.
Another point. I've never heard any of these "experts" come up with an actual alternative to the current system without throwing in Ron Paul for President, buy gold and other unrelated garbage.
Part of the problem is this. If you look at other types of taxes (ex. VAT), instantly you run into the old "this is 'socialism'" line. Regardless of the form taxes take (and the way you spin them), in today's world it's impractical to somehow think you can do away with it all together.
If you say a flat rate for everyone, again you run into a fairness question. How come the ultra-rich aren't paying their "fair share"?
Ok then. Define "fair share":
Is it the current 35% individual rate?
Is it above 50%?
Is it 90%?
Lower income people will feel cheated. The rich will use their tax attorneys to exploit the hell out of every loophole they can find. The "experts" will continue to write their books and push their DVD's on various talk shows. This will keep the talk shows, staff and networks in business who in turn will all pay taxes on this income. Do you REALLY want to see Thom Hartmann in jail for tax evasion? Imagine the endless parade of guest hosts.....
This means that not tax reform is actually benefiting the economy. You don't have to go to (a famous business school) to figure this stuff out.
"This means that not tax reform is actually benefiting the economy. You don't have to go to (a famous business school) to figure this stuff out."
Maybe you should go to a grammar school.
Willie Nelson
James Brown
How about the Fairtax?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax
abolish the FED and all your troubles ends:
JFKenedy was killed for this idea to implement,but you are who posting here is doomed,because i counted over 50posts and asked to vote for FED existence in my blog:
http://trendybull777.blog.com/2011/02/21/hello-world/
But it was just 3 brave people to respond,which meaning that all of you is sartisfied with current environment and you probably forgot that today Jasmin reolutions based on internet first by FED elite to screw nations,I calling for thoose who wish FED abolished to vote or to leave comments at least,the thing which is world lags today is trust between us!!!
Go and vote,World should not affaid of monster eating into our wealth on everyday basic
The last time we heard about the Pentagon and MISSING FUNDS was on September 10, 2001 At the time Rumsfeld reported that there were $2.3 TRILLION in money spent but not accounted for.
The very next day was 9/11/2001 and guess what,...a large plane does some amazing ACROBATIC maneuvers and HITS of all places,...the accounting DEPT. and kills everyone AND destroys all the RECORDS.
Of course that was then and this is now, but with everyone starving and unions up-in-arms and austerity everywhere,...you think the Pentagon could keep track of their money. Especially after the experience in 2001, No?
Well I guess not. Read this latest piece I saw over at WRH.com
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Pentagon accounting problems 'SERIOUS': TreasuryWASHINGTON (AFP) - The US administration is taking a hard look at problems in the Defense Department's accounting, after a report called its books unauditable, the Treasury said Wednesday.
Treasury assistant secretary Richard Gregg told a Congressional panel there were "serious financial reporting issues" at the Pentagon, which in the current proposed budget before the Congress receives $553 billion, or some 15% of all US annual spending.
(More at Site)
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BTW: It was rumored that back before the records were destroyed and all the accountants killed during 9/11 that Israel had received FLEETS of planes (like F-16's) that were brand new,...but were written-off as scrap along with alot of other arms and material.
Ah, there's the magic phrase: withdraw your consent.
It's finally catching on.
Now, how many of you have the balls to stop paying your taxes?
I am Chumbawamba.