Here Comes The Cavalry: Will US Taxpayers Be Footing The Bill For The Greek Bailout?
And now, we kill the dollar.
More headlines from the Greek Prime Minister:
- EVADES FIRM ANSWER ON POSSIBLE IMF SUPPORT
- CLEAR TARGET TO CUT DEFICIT BY 4%/GDP IN 2010 - [this is actually very funny]
- TODAY'S DECISION CONCERNS ALL EU COUNTRIES
- TODAY'S POLITICAL DECISION IMPORTANT
- GREEK GOVT TO TAKE ADDITIONAL MEASURES IF NEEDED
- GREECE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS LOSS OF CREDIBILITY
- GREECE WILL DO WHATEVER NEEDED TO REMEDY DEFICIT
- GREEK GOVT TO SUCCEED IN ALL REFORMS, MEASURES
- EU LEADERS ACKNOWLEDGED GREEK GOVT EFFORTS
- EU SENT CLEAR SUPPORT MESSAGE FOR GREECE ECON
- MESSAGE IS ONE OF SUPPORT FOR GREEK ECONOMY
- EU HAS SENT OUT A CLEAR MESSAGE TO THE MARKETS
- EU DECIDED ON COORDINATED ACTION IF NEEDED
(6 votes)
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on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:40
#226891
Ask and ye shall receive.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:19
#227034
All that helicopter money will NOT be uniformly distributed. It shall go only to those with helicopter landing pads. Anyone who didn't get the memo and build them in the preparatory years must wait for some form of trickledown.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 16:08
#227368
Part of the reason they are getting ready to raid the MMA/MMF world. At least there are a couple in here that are paying attention to the fact that US will have to grab everything they can in their death throwes.
Fed in Talks With Money Market Funds to Help Drain $1 Trillion - http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aSn2_iDKbl1g&pos=4
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:40
#226894
europreans contribute to the imf as well
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:41
#226897
europeans and other nations contribute to the imf reserves as well
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:41
#226898
Sure, why not?! Might as well keep the train running....
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:05
#226973
Exactly. It's no longer an option.
Once the insanity begins, it must be carried through to it's logical conclusion, which is either total thermonuclear meltdown or massive inflation that will make the 70's and early 80's look like a walk in the park. Or both.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:09
#226979
When is my turn to get bailed out??? I have enough debt, no job and a house thats not mine anymore. Ummm, the line-up is pretty long.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:48
#227111
E-mail me when the line starts moving
Then we can call it a parade
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:09
#226981
I agree that this will be carried out to the bitter end, but when you say thermonuclear do you mean just a financial meltdown or the tossing of the bomb? I have to ask because the geopolitical situation around the world is getting uglier and uglier every day. That and we all know that govs love taking nations to war to get the people to look outward instead of at their own criminality.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:36
#227080
"....but when you say thermonuclear do you mean just a financial meltdown or the tossing of the bomb?"
Actually it was a tongue firmly in cheek quip to cover both bases, which I hoped someone would pick up. Thank you Shameful.
I fully expect some type of false flag attack to be manufactured when things get really ugly, in order to divert attention from the ongoing financial rape and pillage by the powers that be.
Average Joe remains blissfully unaware how common false flag attacks really are, including the most recent all or nothing, balls to the wall, all chips to the center of the table September 11, 2001 "attack" blamed upon a certain cave dwelling person who has been a CIA asset for years.
Of course, this type of revelation is just too frightening to the average Joe, who has been indulging in nationalistic propaganda all his/her lifetime in order to disavow responsibility as a citizen and allow Calgone to "take me away." He could never stomach the idea that the USA crossed over to banana republic status decades (centuries?) ago, at least politically speaking.
OK select ZH boy and girl trolls and operatives, time to Junk this comment for the truth it speaks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCC-E8ktcMg
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:47
#227109
Well since Lincoln the Constitution has been negotiable in application, and was further weakened by FDR. And I've held the opinion for years that LBJ delivered a deathblow to America, and we have merely been bleeding out since then. Shame that Goldwater didn't get in. Was not perfect but might have bought us more time.
I do find it humorous that people get offended when you mention that Bin Laden was a CIA asset on record or that we were selling arms to Iraq in the 80's also on record. The citizens are already practicing "crime-stop".
I'm of the opinion there is no nation-state that is not some form of banana republic though. All we have the choice in picking our poison so to speak. I agree that we can expect another false flag because the people are getting unhappy and Americans love a good war. So a war we shall have. My hope is that it is localized to just Iran. Sure it will be nasty having to storm and occupy a 90 million person country but at least it's not a war with China or Russia. Do you think it will be localized war or that they are ready to go WWIII to cover their crimes?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:15
#227167
My favorite photo of all time is from the 80's of Rumsfeld, with a big shit eating grin, shaking hands with Sadam Hussein
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:20
#227174
Don't let Wilson off the hook in your list of Constitution ruining leaders... Wilson cemented the current banking-political nexus into the U.S. framework. Thank him for the Federal Reserve, the initial push for a U.N., tipping the blance of power in Europe by entering into the War of European Leaders' Egos, etc.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:30
#227198
You are of course correct sir. I picked what I saw as the worst of the bunch but Wilson is definitely up there.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:52
#227209
"Do you think it will be localized war or that they are ready to go WWIII to cover their crimes?"
I fully expect ZH to spike this thread.
Both. I suspect "they" will try to make (and keep) it a local problem, which is their MO for decades. But I also think that we have seen all the chips pushed to the center of the table and there is no limit the sociopaths (psychopaths) will find abhorrent if they think they will be seriously exposed or they will fail because they didn't go far enough.
Limits are not in the sociopaths vocabulary. This is precisely what differentiates them from us. You and I might bloody our neighbors nose but we would never consider putting a gun to his head while we rape his wife and daughter. They would if that's what it takes. I firmly believe that was the true reason behind 9/11, which was to find out who was willing to go all the way and force the others to follow.
Think about it. You've been working on a crew for a few years that robs banks and other businesses. You are a bit reluctant to continue but the money is good, the crew is tight and smart and the rules are clear, at least in your mind. Suddenly, the caper you're involved in has just escalated from grand theft to mass murder without your consent. Clearly others either in the crew or supporting the crew had other intentions and never informed you.
You didn't sign on for this but what exactly are you going to do about it after the fact? Beg off and say no more? Clearly anyone who would pull that off is willing to shed a little more blood. You are now in for a pound simply because you were in for an ounce and got dragged in the rest of the way.
BTW, I just described the average Joe in America. They are just waking up to the fact that they've been asleep at the wheel for a few decades and the lunatics are now driving the buss. And they can't get off.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 15:11
#227262
WW III coming to a cable news outlet near you soon.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 15:22
#227292
Thank you, I appreciate your insight and I was thinking along those lines, that they would be willing to go to any length. That nothing was off the table.
I've seen that trick in action, peer pressure and a little bit of corruption can really drag a person down. Very few have the moral character to do a small evil and then be able to turn away when they are "forced" to do a larger evil.
Do you really think the average Joe is waking up though? I think he is blindly, drunkenly flailing around. He knows someone is hurting him but has not clearly identified who and does not yet truly appreciate his predicament.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 16:13
#227377
"Do you really think the average Joe is waking up though? I think he is blindly, drunkenly flailing around."
Once again, my answer is Yes and No. The key to denial is that you're never fully asleep nor fully awake. Your level of awareness ebbs and flows depending upon a multitude of factors, including how far down the rabbit hole you are when the eye lids begin to crack open a tiny bit.
The questions isn't really "Is average Joe waking up" but rather "Define for me the level of awareness fully awake is and where is average Joe on that sliding scale".
I have seen people appear to be fully awake and aware of all that is going on around them and yet not recall one significant fact of the prior year, other than thousands of the superficial variety. Then I've seen people who appear to be sleep walking but then surprise me with their graps of the facts behind the Ponzi.
Without being religious in the least, the average Joe sold his soul to the devil many years/decades ago in exchange for the illusion of wealth that easy credit creates. Like a crack addict who is way past hooked and would sell their sister or brother into sexual slavery for another hit, the average Joe is not even close to ready to admit that they've sold their soul, that the illusion of wealth is just that, an illusion, that their "leaders' are at best habitual liars and at worse sociopaths etc etc etc.
When I spoke about average Joe beginning to recognize they can't get out of the insanity doesn't mean in the least bit that they are waking up, that their awareness levels are higher. In fact, the Ponzi counts on the fact that as the average Joe cracks open the eye lids, the image that flashes in their brains will be so horrifying that they will instantly snap the lids closed and then enter a drone or "zombie" state of blind obedience to anything that promises never to show those ugly images to them again. In fact, get ready to not only fight the powers-that-be but also your neighbors and friends, who will fight for the right to stay in denial.
I've been studying Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan during the years that preceded WWII. Most people just study the war itself. Where the real understanding comes from is the 15 years before 1940. We are currently at 1931 or so. We have a long slow decline staring us directly in the face.
Now shut up and let me go back to sleep.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 16:37
#227410
Darn, just when I was beginning to really enjoy the above intellectual preening, sanity gains control of the thread. But thanks guys for demonstrating above that it is possible to leave the gravity well of the earth without sitting on top of a rocket.
on Fri, 02/12/2010 - 09:19
#227639
As regular as sand falling in an hour glass, as predictable as spring following winter, as attracted to these threads as bees are to flowers, so come the trolls and operatives to any discussion that might refute the idea that the emperor has magnificent clothes.
God forbid anyone discuss the idea that the emperor has his hairy ass and dinky winky exposed for all the world to see.
on Fri, 02/12/2010 - 04:16
#228171
I would rate the current population as 99% Cypher.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 23:43
#228032
Re. "I've held the opinion for years that LBJ delivered a deathblow to America"
I agree. As the guy who would take over, of course he was part of the coup. Rescinded the JFK money law that threatened the Fed. What was that? Ah LBJ stopped the issuance of Silver Certificates instead of FRNs.
"On June 4, 1963, President John F. Kennedy signed Executive Order No. 11110 that returned to the U.S. government the power to issue currency, without going through the Federal Reserve..."
http://www.orwelltoday.com/jfkfedreserve.shtml
her to
http://www.rense.com/general76/jfkvs.htm
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:42
#226902
US taxpayer = bad bank
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:57
#226948
US taxpayer - bailer of last resort.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 17:49
#227489
US taxpayer - bailer of first resort
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 17:52
#227497
US taxpayer - bailer of first resort
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:04
#226969
Wall street gets bailed out
Foreign Govt's get bailed out
Then let the USA fail
Without USA = New World Order and One World Govt
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:29
#227063
Taxpayer bailout? Taxpayers will create an underground economy that won't be subject to taxation- or they'll just cheat on their taxes. One good cheat deserves another, I guess... It's the Geithner way.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:45
#227102
next leg down begins: http://www.iamned.com
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:00
#227135
Tyler, just block this guy's IP address. Or add an ignore feature once a threshold number of junked posted is reached.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:51
#227229
Iamned and his boyfriend discuss the recession and why they can't get married:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsqPHKT-k68
on Sun, 02/14/2010 - 18:17
#230946
HA! Now I get it. "Ned" is actually a retard. To Ned's Mom, if you're reading this: you need to monitor your son's online activities more closely. Maybe introduce him to World of Warcraft... he needs a new distraction.
tax
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:42
#226903
Good, everyone should be able to get money from America! Zimbabwe Ben needs more hands to shove those dollars into, everyone belly up to the bar.
You know ZH should band together and open up our own bank to get money from the discount window, that way we could all gamble with free money underwritten by the Fed.
Though if Greece is stupid enough to take money from the IMF may God have mercy on their souls. The IMF is worse then the Gambino crime family.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:57
#226950
good one
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:00
#226956
"confessions of an economic hitman"
http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265911072&sr=8-1-spell
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:05
#226972
+1
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:22
#227042
Perkins writes that his economic projections cooked the books Enron-style to convince foreign governments to accept billions of dollars of loans from the World Bank and other institutions to build dams, airports, electric grids, and other infrastructure he knew they couldn't afford. The loans were given on condition that construction and engineering contracts went to U.S. companies. Often, the money would simply be transferred from one bank account in Washington, D.C., to another one in New York or San Francisco. The deals were smoothed over with bribes for foreign officials, but it was the taxpayers in the foreign countries who had to pay back the loans. When their governments couldn't do so, as was often the case, the U.S. or its henchmen at the World Bank or International Monetary Fund would step in and essentially place the country in trusteeship, dictating everything from its spending budget to security agreements and even its United Nations votes. It was, Perkins writes, a clever way for the U.S. to expand its "empire" at the expense of Third World citizens
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:23
#227183
Time to end statism... Modify the U.S. constitution with the "No thanks!" consensualism clause. So long as you're leaving others alone, you can say no thanks to their efforts, always backed by the end of a gun.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:00
#226955
Comparing the Gambino's to the IMF is insulting to the Gambino's...
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:06
#226974
This is what happens when 33% of the people work for the government. We are getting there ourselves here in Obamaland.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:26
#227055
Yes, I work for the gov't when there are so many wonderful alternatives available. You try finding a private-sector job in this mess!
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:25
#227188
You're a symptom, not the problem. Government spends only what it extracts from the productive economy. Not that we don't need our post delivered. Just not by government fiat / force. No thanks!
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 19:03
#227636
Crisis will get worse: http://www.iamned.com good read
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:43
#226905
let's buy the akropolis.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:27
#227189
Good luck at finding who owns its various mortgages.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:26
#227190
Good luck at finding who owns its various mortgages.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 17:36
#227467
Meh, Greece will pay them off after we buy the place. I just want to turn the Parthenon into a Walmart.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:43
#226906
When Greece joined the Eurozone, was the 3% maximum deficit / GDP target not clear enough?
How about the real story: "Greece wants bailout, but still refuses to abide by conditions under which it joined the European Union."
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:46
#226910
I feel it is your duty as a great country to come to the aid of the cradle of western civilisation.....
We in Europe can get on with reducing the rest of our exposure
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:47
#226917
Good luck. In the USA's death throes we ought to be able to trash most of the planet even if we only use toxic financial weapons of mass destruction.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:51
#226930
+1.
majority of Americans: "where is Grease."
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:00
#226957
Stockard Channing was awesome in Greece
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:08
#226978
According to Bush, it's where the Grecians live.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:08
#227152
As opposed to the current teleprompter reader? How about we agree that both are inarticulate, brain dead, affirmative-action chimps.
Bush:
Obama:
To which Paul Krugman blogged:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/10/clueless/
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 16:19
#227388
There are 4 reasons why Obama is so clueless:
1. Rahm Emanuel
2. Larry Summers
3. Tim Geithner
4. Benjamin Shalom Bernanke
Obama is only as good as the (shoddy) advice he is given.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 19:11
#227656
"Never hire someone smarter than you"
on Fri, 02/12/2010 - 14:22
#228879
Never hire someone that thinks they are smarter than you - but definitely surround yourself with smarter people.
The real question is: who did hire those guys?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:55
#226941
Funny enough, I was a Classics major in college and have nothing but respect for the Ancient Greeks. Still, the modern ones have had over 2,000 years to get their shit together and haven't been able to. I say let 'em hang. They did it to themselves.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:59
#226953
The Greek Republic is less than 200 years old FYI.
That being said, it's the oldest unreformed nationalist state around, second being the United States (dating the nationalist USA to Lincoln's conquest of the CSA).
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:02
#226963
I was speaking more generically, regardless of the actual mode of governance they've lived under. They've occupied the same patch of land continuously for over two millenia and they are still making stupid mistakes like overleveraging themselves.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:11
#227012
The compliant Irish did what they were told. Pay cuts and layoffs.
The Icelanders told the UK Banks to fuck off.
The Greeks march and promise all hell will break loose and chant: Not one Euro sacrificed to the bankers!
In the US the Banks rob the population blind, with not protests - nothing on the level of Athens.
So, which societies above are handling this wrong? Who's making the stupid mistakes?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:24
#227048
It's not an "either-or". The Greeks can march all they want, but they are still the ones who got themselves into this, so why should anyone bail them out? If I go to a restaurant and order an expensive meal I can't pay for, should I be bailed out? Trying to get indignant about your debts AFTER you've run them up is mighty convenient, I'd say.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:36
#227079
It IS and either/or. We are ALL overindebted in the West. But do you prefer a society where everyone bankrupts their government, or a society where only the top 1% bankrupt it? Because that's the choice amongst all the western countries today.
Watch which countries spread the pain equally, and which countries reward their plutocrats first. Then you will understand which countries are true democracies.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:52
#227121
I mean it's not an "either-or" in terms of whether each society is making mistakes. Each is making the mistakes specific to it.
Look, if you think that the Greeks (and, actually, all Westerners) shouldn't have learned something from existing as a relatively steady political entity for the last 2,000 years, that's your right. My original point was that they should have and yet they haven't. If human societies can be given that much leeway to make mistakes, we might as well burn every history book in existence for warmth, for all the good they do and Herodotus, rather than write the first history, should have just stuck to recycyling the old myths.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:57
#227131
When money can be created from nothing, it will be (over)created to someone's benefit. The lesson here is the effect of fiat money on a nation. Long term - no nation can ignore the siren call of free money. The question is, who ultimately benefits from it - and who pays. There is no lesson to be learned. "History, with all her volumes vast, hath but one page" - Lord Byron.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:23
#227182
The plutocrat and the pauper, using the same fiat currency, can only purchase whatever the denomination on the bills says. I'm not sure how one benefits over the other from "overcreation".
Again, how exactly does that justify the Greeks complaining about their debts? They spent the money! And, it wasn't "free", there was always an interest rate attached to those debts, as well as the ability for the Finance Ministry to say, "We can't go into any more debt, some people will have to cut back". The Greek state lived beyond its means. Period. All of the rationalizations in the world won't change that, nor will any plan of how the pain gets divided.
The lesson to be learned is "live within your means". I'm not sure how you can't see that.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 15:08
#227257
Low interest rates benefit both plutocrat and pauper. The pauper gets his unsustainable gov't pension funded, the plutocrat has a cheap source of money to speculate with - to invest in rent seeking activities as opposed to productive endeavors. Monetization benefits the plutocrat only. It is used to purchase his worthless investments, while the cost - inflation - is socialized amongst the pauper class.
In a fiat system with cheap and available credit - you are a fool to "live within your means." If a Western nation did not partake in the cheap money blitz of the past 40 years, they would have been a failure. Their population would have lived in mud huts. Economies rely on credit growth, take away cheap credit while other nations bask in it - and guess what? People will leave your country and your gdp will suffer.
You want proof of what I write? Look at Japan, UK, and US - nations that own their printing presses. Are they belt tightening?
I'm no fan of the system, but abiding by simplistic "live within your means" morals would have made you a failure as a state.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:55
#227125
"Watch which countries spread the pain equally, and which countries reward their plutocrats first. Then you will understand which countries are true democracies."
Well said. +1000
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:31
#227203
I'm still of the opinion that democracy is the theory that the people deserve to get exactly what they want, and good and hard.
Thank you Mencken much.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:27
#227059
Always liked the Icelanders approach - politicians get out, bankers up yours
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:29
#227065
the correct answer is E. All of the above.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:31
#227199
The Irish were compliant because there is still large amounts of euros on deposit amongst the older middle and ruling class - they still have much to lose unlike the Icelanders with their broken krona
The debts are held by the now productive but powerless thirty somethings which is a grave problem as they could lose the incentive to work.
A much weaker currency would favour the Irish greatly but our German friends want to keep the doe.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 15:15
#227283
Well their was large amounts of Tribal movements in Europe over the Millenia so we cannot be sure of that statement.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 15:41
#227319
delete
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:47
#226916
Americans bailing out Greece? Yeah, what the fuck -why not!???
Surely Golden Slacks has a little exposure and we have to cover their slimy asses.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:48
#226919
NO BIG, FAT, FUCKKING GREEK BAILOUTS FROM AMERICA!!!!
No way, No How.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 16:40
#227416
same from Germany. We didnt want the EU, so whatever... Let those derivatives crash our systems, for a better future.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:49
#226926
Someone help me out here please.
IMF will basically bailout Greece with funds that, the majority of, are from the US?
Which would open the door to a global bailout at the expense of the primarily the US?
I understand the IMF is an international interest, corrupt organization no better than the BiS, UN, and World Bank. I'm just rusty in terms of how it's actions are employed exactly, and the flow of funds.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:53
#226934
The operations can be a bit complicated but the goal is simple - bleed the peasants dry.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:57
#226946
Try me, I have the time. And would appreciate the guidance of a fellow ZHer on this important topic. Anywhere I look on the internet preaches the value of the IMF as a global financial stability instrument, without going into the processes other than them advising.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:02
#226966
Greece has buku gold - the IMF will gladly "hold" some of it for them as collateral.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:55
#227187
Which will be immediately melted down, plated over tungsten, and then re-stamped. All proceeds go to elite vaults.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:18
#227031
Well back in the eighties my country were threatened with the IMF unless we got our shit together - we were spending to much money on populist programmes so we needed reform. The IMF never came but the local political class implemented a austerity programme that was IMF light which was quite successful in reducing the national debt.
Over the years there was a greater and greater surplus - but this surplus was used less and less to increase our productive capacity of the economy as this was not in the "markets" interest. ( for example the state electricity company which brought Ireland into the modern world was given less and less capital to build for the future)
The state surplus was again used for populist programmes but most of our capital was expended on personal vanity such as absurd houses and other crap. This was seen as economic development by the IMF and other esteemed institutions. The IMF seems to like increasing the debt of a country once it does not increase its productive capacity.
The same monkeys seem to be coming to the same conclusions but this time there ain't any capital left to bleed.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:10
#227155
> This was seen as economic development by the IMF and other esteemed institutions. The IMF seems to like increasing the debt of a country once it does not increase its productive capacity.
Including the Irish institutions, as well as most academic economists both in Ireland and abroad. So it's a bit rich to blame IMF for not being less stupid than us.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 15:08
#227254
Yes I agree with you completly but I was addressing a question about the IMF using a example I know best and not the large amounts of idiot savants in my country.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:33
#227208
Do we agree, then, that the problem is taxation controlled by idiots and money printing controlled by the banking-political elite?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 15:02
#227244
So, the 'threat' would have been what? That's what I'm looking for here.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 16:13
#227379
Ireland was "Independent" for a period of time between the late 30s and the Late 50s - we paid for that independence by being shut out of the capital markets , when we buckled under the burden of capital starvation and poverty and gave up our naive dreams we were left back into the international fold.
The economy expanded rapidly during this period until we eventually find ourself with neither Independence nor wealth - its quite funny really but then again I have a strange sense of humor.
The threat that you refer is to be banished to the wilderness and for a little bit longer then 40 days and nights.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:55
#226939
Sounds fair as the US caused the whole mess :-)
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:53
#226932
Greek request to IMF is not (currently) for money; it's guidance on funding themselves out of the mess. Basically, they are requesting lip service from the IMF for now.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:58
#226951
Shhh. Don't confuse people with the facts.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:01
#226958
It's like being in deep doo-doo without a plan to extract yourself . Form an advisory committee and buy time. Bring the mark into the nest.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 15:52
#227336
This is of course, classic Canadian Government Response.
Boldly springing into action, the Government formed a Royal Commission to identify and report back the following year on what the problem is.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:02
#226964
Define "technical assistance."
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:55
#226942
Or those news headlines from a Bloomberg web page? I can't find same.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:56
#226944
How are 20 lousy billions in printed money going to kill the dollar when trillions haven't?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:56
#226945
Extend and pretend until options expiration.
Rince and repeat.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:57
#226947
Now c'mon, if your neighbor's house is on fire... Remember all that sh**?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:05
#226971
"Now c'mon, if your neighbor's house is on fire..."
I believe the current correct answer is:
Buy insurance on it
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:57
#226949
Send in Tony Soprano to bust them out...
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:59
#226952
"kill the dollar"?
Yep, gold at 1092.90 or up 1.38% at around 1 pm today. USD down against EUR, JPY, CAD, and AUD. All is right with the world.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:04
#226968
Killing the dollar is great for equities!
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:13
#227015
So is a "strong dollar" --- go figure.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:01
#226959
It's 1937 all over again...
http://www.planbeconomics.com/2010/02/07/its-1937-all-over-again/
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:02
#226965
The ones that will be footing the bill will be the ones that perish in the future when the system is unable to sustain itself.
Oh but the financial markets marvel over the use of compounding interest, humans have a good likelyhood of compounding themselves right out of existence this time.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:03
#226967
I get the sense now the IMF is going in regardless, and fast. It's like sharks smelling blood in the water, and the Greeks will prove too disfunctional to fight it.
There is probably no way around it. I thought at first Germany+France would figure out how to do it, but it looks now like they are just trying to politely weed out the EU, starting with the weeds in ClubMed. The IMF is poison to European interests. Once the IMF gets their meat hooks into Greece, Greece will be pushed out of the EU. Might take a few years, but they are likely toast already.
For the Greeks, this is a lose-lose moment. If they can manage to quell the masses with money from Daddy US Bucks then that will be a win. But that's all they are going to get; less blood shed.
cougar
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:06
#226975
The ancient Greeks ate health food. Now look at them. They're all dead.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:07
#226976
This all reminds me of the mess and rumors before the Lehman crash.
Does anyone else remember anything in the past?
Our "leaders" don't seem to...
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:09
#226980
currencies are like the girl in a gangbang and the sovereigns are the guys taking their turns round robin.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:10
#226983
Why not? The US financial implosion caused much of this misery and before US banks came to Europe and Greece, nobody owned a credit card there. Now, Greeks each own five cards on average, all maxed out.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:10
#226993
All together now..."We are the world, we are the children...."
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:12
#227014
Who gives a flying fuck about the value of the dollar? If all the countries in the world default, then it's not going to matter, and all the gold in the world will not purchase the goods that are not being produced? If everyone here roots for the downfall of the US, then what do you expect to happen?
Imagine this scenario, the dollar's collapsed, America is in financial ruins. There is 50% unemployment, and we are at war with Iran/China/Pakistan. Your sitting in your apartment with piles of Gold, who's buying, how are you going to move them, etc. You think that Joe Blow, who is not working at the factory will barter with you? You think you can walk into your local 7-11 to buy some snacks, and pay with a bar of gold? Use your heads. Instead of rooting for the downfall of the dollar, maybe some constructive advice. The power of the collective is limitless.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:25
#227052
Ah how does collective action stop the madmen controlling the life and death of the dollar? Shall we write a stern letter to the oligarchs? "Please stop raping us, your loyal serfs"
Also your gold comments are not backed up by history. Look at Zimbabwe, which for a while was a picture of hell on earth. How did people buy bread and necessities? They bought it in gold or foreign currencies. So if in Hell they will take gold for bread I think in the USA no matter how bad it gets those with gold will be able to buy food, unless you think things will be worse here then Zimbabwe. If you happen to think that is the case why the hell are you still here? If I thought would be worse then Zimbabwe then I would drop everything right now and run for the door.
Hell my grandparents fled Eastern Europe from the Soviets during WW2 and made it because of gold. They bribed people as needed and survived because they had gold coins. So history tells us gold will keep your ass alive when things go pear shaped.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:57
#227129
You're going to use gold to buy bread -- think you might be overpaying a tad? If the worst case does play out, and I see someone paying for anything with a handful of gold coins, the next thing they'll feel is a baseball bat upside their head and their pockets much lighter.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:04
#227143
There are fractional pieces, and in Zimbabwe it was traded in grams. But by all means don't prepare. Not to offend, but I don't know you so I don't care if you prepare for a bad situation, your pain is your own. Ideally no one will prepare and gold prices will collapse, so if you have some please sell if you think it is useless. There is a lot of cash for gold places.
And I don't plan on sticking around to buy bread with gold. My gold is to get me the hell out of dodge if I miss the exit signal, or for selling in my new home after I bail out of hte Titanic. I don't plan on going down with the ship.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:12
#227163
Zimbabwe was populated by many who were used to living in a hut with a dirt floor, without electricity, without running water, and used to bartering for what they need.
The USofA is not populated by those types of people.
When gold goes to $3,500 - $5,000 an ounce where does that leave good old USD? In the crapper. Then you have $10 cans of Pepsi or $25 loaf of bread.
That won't lead to riots here in the USofA.
Gold is a hedge, for sure, but Zimbabwe (or 1940s eastern Europe for that matter) is not a good correlation to what 2010s US citizens are equipped or prepared to make do when gas costs $20 gallon.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:29
#227064
Buy silver baby.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:13
#227016
Marla, Tyler,
Help my comments got jammed!!!
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:15
#227023
heh did they ever!
I must ask, where do you think the US banks came from?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:15
#227022
The USA should give them the Money no loans
let them keep the money.. In return we get
30,000. acres of nice land in Greece..
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:15
#227025
A little known fact - Greek Families/business control 90%+ of the worlds concrete business. Make them sell it!
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:17
#227028
Leo, always has the first and last word
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:18
#227032
Lets do it Give Greece the cash they need...
In return , we get 30,000. Acres of their Land..
Who's next .. Spain , Portugal , Ireland...?
Cash for land ... lets go...!
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:25
#227054
And how many acres do we give China?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:04
#227092
Try that in Ireland Jimbo and you are in trouble - agricultural land goes deep here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6P6FoiSrmA
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:22
#227038
Well, whoever believes the officials of the most corrupt state in the Western world, deserve what they get.
Goodnight from Athens, and be careful...
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:22
#227039
SDR-- Special Drachma Rights
Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.
'Til daddy takes her T-Bill away.
On such a winter's day.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:23
#227043
We used to be looked as we were damned Greek Gods and now you calling us damned God Greeks!
JPM GS MSDW
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:24
#227045
Who are these coming to the sacrifice?
To what green altar, O mysterious priest,
Lead'st thou that heifer lowing at the skies,
And all her silken flanks with garlands drest?
Keats
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:27
#227060
Am I incorrect in saying that "bailing out Greece" is not quite correct? Isn't it really bailing out the banks that have loaned to Greece? They are the ones that would be damaged if Greece defaults, among others.
So there is no change of US policy here, it would be a continuation of the rape of the US taxpayer to give money to the banks, national and international.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:33
#227072
good read: http://www.iamned.com
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 15:33
#227078
I have no doubt that the IMF would like a piece of the EU. But the majority in the EU know they would have a bigger credibility problem if they accept any direct financial help.
Having said that there are members like Sweden who are pushing for IMF support. It appears that "technical assistance" is a compromise.
Still it's Greece's hand to play but I doubt the unions will see membership in the EU as more than a millstone around their necks.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:36
#227082
Hey fellow ZH'rs here is information on the most annoying SPAMMER there ever was, tired of him SPAMMING us on ZH?
Let's all return the favor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thJr-jDPwNE
Cetin Hakimoglu
2930 garber street
Berkeley, CA. 94705
Phone: 510-843-1013
Facebook http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1177779152&ref=fs#!/profile.php?v=wall&ref=fs&id=1177779152
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:38
#227085
Iamned you are dead!
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:45
#227104
Is "Hakimoglu" the Turkish equivalent of "Smith"?
It seems every other one of them has that surname.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:33
#227207
I visited this guys page - at least it looks useful. But the spamming must end Cetin!
Hey, Cetin. It looks like you need to get out more often.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:38
#227084
The IMF will own Greece...
http://www.serendipity.li/hr/imf_and_dollar_system.htm
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:38
#227086
The US Taxpayer is a broke and bankrupt entity. I do not quiet understand what the US Taxpayer can do at this point. A bailout has become synonymous to asking for taxpayer help, but the enomity of these bailouts are beyond the capability of the taxpayer anymore. I think what it exactly is if the defaulting entity is asking the US Taxpayer for more circumference in the anal cavity...meaning a larger asshole to withstand the shove.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:44
#227100
hat tip to: http://www.iamned.com
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:48
#227112
Was it Athena or Alan Greenspan who sprung from Zeus's head?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:51
#227114
http://www.youtube.com/v/KFbPN9ktuvI
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:04
#227115
Anyone know how the greek public react to this bailout ?
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:50
#227117
Did Iran ever "punch" us? If so, I did not feel it.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:56
#227126
Maybe this is one reason why Germany and France are so eager for a Greek Bailout. Greece to cut weapon buying from 3.16B Euro in 2009 to 85M Euro in 2012.
German foreign minister encourages the Greece for the purchase of fighter aircrafts
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dw-world.de%2Fdw%2Farticle%2F0%2C%2C5201763%2C00.html
Greece wants to buy six frigates in France
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.rian.ru%2Fsafety%2F20100210%2F125061183.html
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:13
#227159
Looks like the IMF may need to sell their other 200 tons of gold... if they actually physically have it. This is great news for those who believe in 'real' money, and bad news for those who believe in the FIAT central banking system based on faith and CONfidence.
The bad news, mainly the USA and a lower percentage of other countries will be getting it 'Greek' style (that means up the a$$ for those not familiar with that slang regarding a sexual position).
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:41
#227224
AhHa! US investment bankers, in so far as they represent a share of the sovereign debt (think CITI,Dubai World) the sovereign entity is pre-indemnified. I can keep making the point, that like Iraq the financial crisis was a preemptive strike, and as such the continuing costs will break the back of the US system, and shock and awe painted US foreign policy into a corner, now economic policy follows.
For those who like metaphors, think Surge = QEII
think guaranteed bipartisan political continuity
think a small vocal group of Iraq war protestors, who are marginalized by the media = Tea Party (or Sarahs' Tea Party)
think eventually the American public comes to the party, Pres pop is Bushlike, but GS reelects him anyway.
think the financial crisis goes back to the caves of Tora Bora, as we search for the third party originators of those crappy loans, like we look for Bin Laden, which is not much at all because everyone knows it wasn't him.
You've already bailed out Greece probably, and you're not going to get a free vacation either.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:46
#227228
I submit that an IMF bailout would be a Good Thing. Sure, the IMF's largesse comes out of the US and other developed economies, but at least it tends to demand and receive real austerity and fiscal reform in exchange for its largesse, unlike the moral-hazard/can-kicking exercises of the past few years. It would seem that, as Simon Johnson said, the problem of the past few years is precisely that the big-shot economies had the economic clout to avoid having IMF-style reform imposed on them, and also lacked the political will to impose it on themselves: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice/
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:54
#227240
Working class in the modern world are about to get a painful lesson in the downside of owning a fiat currency.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 19:53
#227726
The US Constitution became an irrelevant piece of paper. Any agreements and treaties signed by the USA are just pieces of papers America does not give much shit about.
Why? Well, we have "good" lawyers. The Geneva POW convention? The US government does not give shit about it. US government just "reclassified" POW into "enemy combatants" or "terrorists".
Projections: in a not too far away future, as US economy inevitably falls apart, US citizenry will discover that the USA is a 3rd world country without any constitutional rights or legal protection.
on Fri, 02/12/2010 - 02:37
#228145
Whether it's via the IMF or piggybacking off of Germany's debt rating, Greece is going to get bailed. After the fact, armed with the knowledge that even a small country is TBTF, Papandreou has absolutely no incentive whatsoever to alter his administration's or country's behavior in any way, shape, or form. He'll ignore the IMF, and lead his own people's rallies when they take to the street to protest IMF austerity measures. Populism on some else' dime.
Maastricht rules are for chumps. In the end, responsibility rests with those who have the most to lose, which is Phd-Candidate-in-Perpetuity Ben Bernanke.
on Mon, 04/19/2010 - 09:09
#307815
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