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Here We Go Again: NHK Reports Fire At Fukushima Reactor #4
Just headlines for now. We can only hope that the containment pool is not involved.
- TOKYO ELECTRIC WORKER SAW FIRE AT 5:44 LOCAL TIME
- FIRE AT FUKUSHIMA DAI-ICHI NO. 4 REACTOR, NHK REPORTS
From AP:
A new fire broke out at a nuclear reactor early Wednesday, a day after the power plant emitted a burst of radiation that panicked an already edgy Japan and left the government struggling to contain a spiraling crisis caused by last week's earthquake and tsunami.
The latest blaze erupted in the outer housing of the containment vessel at the No. 4 unit at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex, said Hajimi Motujuku, a spokesman for the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co. Japan's nuclear safety agency also confirmed the fire, whose cause was not immediately known.
On Tuesday, a fire broke out in the same reactor's fuel storage pond - an area where used nuclear fuel is kept cool - causing radioactivity to be released into the atmosphere.
Radiation levels in areas around the nuclear plant, which rose early Tuesday afternoon, appeared to subside by evening, officials said. But the unease remained in a country trying to recover from the massive disasters that are believed to have killed more than 10,000 people and battered the world's third-largest economy.
The radiation leak caused the government to order 140,000 people living within 20 miles (30 kilometers) of the plant to seal themselves indoors to avoid exposure, and authorities declared a ban on commercial air traffic through the area. Worries about radiation rippled through Tokyo and other areas far beyond that cordon. The stock market plunged for a second day, dropping 10 percent.
NHK is currently reporting live on Reactor 4 developments (click on picture for live stream):
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Why is he still on t.v.? He is a tool.
Wow, I hate to double post, but I had the unfortunate timing to post the link to the DigitalGlobe Fukushima pics just prior to those massive posts! The highest res pics are amazing, and for you other visual-brained hedgers, I think you'll appreciate the imagery. Again, please forgive the repetition...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/digitalglobe-imagery/5525887859/
These things look pretty harmless.
I'm not worried.
Interesting editorial - interesting take on why diesel backups didn't work
http://www.gregpalast.com/no-bs-info-on-japan-nuclearobama-invites-tokyo-electric-to-build-us-nukes-with-taxpayer-funds/
re Emergency Gnerator Failures"
Quotes from link above at Spanish Inquisition:
"...in my former capacity as lead investigator in several government nuclear plant fraud and racketeering investigations. ...
The failure of emergency systems at Japan's nuclear plants comes as no surprise to those of us who have worked in the field. ...
The government team I worked with caught them once, in 1988, at the Shoreham plant in New York. ... so engineers were told to change the tests from 'failed' to 'passed.'...
...official line that the tsunami disabled the pumps needed to cool the reactors, implying that water unexpectedly got into the diesel generators that run the pumps.
These safety back-up systems are the 'EDGs' in nuke-speak: Emergency Diesel Generators. ...
Back in the day, when we checked the emergency back-up diesels in America, a mind-blowing number flunked. At the New York nuke, for example, the builders swore under oath that their three diesel engines were ready for an emergency. They'd been tested. The tests were faked, the diesels run for just a short time at low speed. When the diesels were put through a real test under emergency-like conditions, the crankshaft on the first one snapped in about an hour, then the second and third. We nicknamed the diesels, "Snap, Crackle and Pop." " [End quotes]
Urge all to read full report at
http://www.gregpalast.com/no-bs-info-on-japan-nuclearobama-invites-tokyo-electric-to-build-us-nukes-with-taxpayer-funds/
thank you
Shoreham's EDG's did have design problems and they had to be replaced after crankshaft failure occurred. That is absolutely correct...of course this happened during plant construction and was ultimately resolved prior to Shoreham's test criticality and then immediate decommissioning. EDG reliability in the US (and global) nuclear industry is well over 95% reliability, demonstrated at each plant during monthly testing since the 1980s, where much was learned to optimize diesel test methods and maintenance practices. At Fukushima, supposedly there are a total of 13 EDGs (can't validate but typical design is at least 2 per plant - later GE designs incorporated a 3rd EDG solely to power a High Pressure Core Spray pump. We don't know why all Fuk EDG's / emergency ac power system apparently failed...was it due to earthquake, flooding, electrical faults in the plant, etc. It makes sense that it was due to conditions that exceeded their design basis assumptions, possibly combined with other factors which we won't know till the post event investigations are performed.
Having said the above...the main weakness (IMO) with the present generation of nuclear plants is that they are overly reliant on "active" emergency systems. In a design basis event (loss of coolant along with loss of offsite power), diesels have to start, motors/pumps start in sequence, valves open/close, controls function, etc. Newer design nuclear plants are much more reliant on "passive" systems...which are less prone to failure and human error...
Spanish Inquisition;
The Diesel generator sets are all located down on the ocean shoreline. Does that take care of your question?
Any word on 5 & 6?
Well, I keep hearing total jackoffs continue to say how great it is to have this disaster so there is rebuilding.
So, this is great. You know...if you are a complete societal fuckstain.
It's Bastiat's Broken Reactor Fallacy. We saw the same erroneous thinking in New Orleans with the hurricane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_window_fallacy
if the vast area is contaminated, there will never be any rebuilding! ever!!!
I think this needs to be a series on TV.
CR crap just passed. Crud, shoulda grabbed some TBT.
Thinking this is worth -200 on the Dow come tomorrow.
what the fuck is w/ treasuries? you would think the japanese have to sell, yet treasuries are way up and PMs are down.
Sold my vix @ the close, which I'm regretting now.
'Flight to safety' is hard to call. But TBT at this level is almost a gimme.
I was holding out for 36.50.
Treasuries are as safe as reactor #4.
I have a small position in tbt, was hoping it would open up b/c of japan.
and another bomb: moodys downgrades portugal to a3 with negativve outlook
Good. Never could stand those eels they eat.
+1 those eels are beyond disgusting
Do NOT short into nuclear holocaust.
BTFD
Sell TZA at open, and jump into TNA. Sell TNA at close, and jump into TZA.
Gaps covered.
Wolf Blitzer just said this recent development is disturbing. As if he just now found out how fucked this entire situation is.
Wolf is finally off of Bush's declining approval rating?
I'm not high on Wolf, but he and an onscene CNN reporter made an official spokesman for San Onofrio (sp) nuke reactor look like a liar face yesterday. Fellow first claimed that his plant was designed to withstand a 9 earthquake like J suffered, by golly. The interviewer pointed out that it was really only designed for low 7 and the plant rep tried to deflect to jargon, then finally deflated and agreed.
Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut and CNN did on that one.
Yeah to be fair, as far as CNN goes, Wolf, his angry sidekick Jack Cafferty, and AC are, by far, the best of the whole lot as far as what they are allowed to say and report on. The rest of them are pure morons.
but, but kiran chetry is so cute!
Oh ya, Chetry, babe. Prior on FOX.
Brilliant CNN reportage:
Bombay Bimbo: It is a fast paced, and evolving story we are reporting on, Woolff.
Woolff: Yes, a fire in a damaged reactor is never a good thing.
Who coached these hacks, "George Washington"?
Oh shit yeah.
Just like CNN's Gulf War 1 "live on the scene with Charles Jacko(ff)" coverage shot against a blue screen whilst the stoned assholes were waiting for the pizza delivery man.
Credibility?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98JDKB-Qmxs
Buncha assholes.
Get a fucking life. They're part of the MSM PropagandaVision tabloid reality show.
Well, the question of who bears the blame for this debacle - Godzilla or Mothra - will no doubt soon be all over the mass media.
No Gorgo?
Gorgo lives in a nice flat in Chelsea.
When will Gorgo start paying rent? Oh ya, England.
They need Ultraman to come to the rescue. Ultraman would have zero problem with radiation..
Helicopters to fight new fire per CNN crawl
Forgetting rebuilding....that is a massive 1) Mess (no can't "clean up" must abandon) 2) Massive electricity shortage.
I am sorry. This is absolutely surreal.
Japan is no more
I hate to agree with you. But you speak reality. Japan is no more.
Japan is not the Ukraine. If the Kanto Plain is significantly contaminated, along with the tsunami damage in the northeast, a serious portion of the country's ability to sustain itself is gone. Not that there would be 'nothing left' but it's kind of like a midsize nuclear war.
Japan is no larger than Montana, has only about ten arable/buildable plains, and Kanto is the biggest. About 17,000 square kilometers. Chernobyl contaminated 175,000.
Entombment is the only way now and they are NOT discussing it. God's grace is great, but having over a dozen reactors and waste dumps go back to OK for no reason is asking for a lotta miracles here.
Total Chinese clusterfuck. As we used to say on Mule Creek, they are just snake bit.
Please place your bets on that. What, at most they lose 30km around the site?
People keep downplaying this disaster giving it a 4 or 6 rating and comparing it to Chernobyl which was graded 7. Fukushima is off the charts. It's going to be a 10 and people suffer from suspension of disbelief. Used fuel rods in the worst location. It seems as if it were done on purpose for maximum damage. It's ridiculous. This affects every living thing on this planet and people still don't get it. The closer you are to it, the more radiation your body will absorb. People around the world will now understand that every nuclear plant is actually a time bomb waiting to go off in their own backyard.
Chernobyl was a bomb waiting to go off. No containment, and a graphite core.
This really is different.
Diagram graphite exposed to sustained neutron bombardment.
Looks like FED
Well, if the scale only goes to 7 and your going to make shit up why not make it go to an "11."
Designed by GE and approved by the NRC,(american); it is ridiculous. The fuel cooling "rooms", I refuse to call them "ponds"; a pond is something outside; not part of the third story of a building, are also overloaded with fuel. Fire hoses for 9 months. Hmm. I think a "good result" will be pretty bad. But I hope somehow this mess can cool off with out heating up.
People around the world will now understand that every nuclear plant is actually a time bomb waiting to go off in their own backyard.
This is single-handedly the stupidest fucking thing I've read today. Seriously? Just because Japan has a 40 year old reactor, which should've been decom'ed already, with a suspect safety basis governing this thing, all nuclear power plants are ticking time bombs? Take your fucking tin foil hat off and get out of the bunker dude. This is a worst-case scenario that nobody could've predicted - earthquake followed by tsunami. I agree that there are many flaws with this plant, it's operation and storage of spent fuel, but just because the Japs screwed the pooch on this one, all reactors over the globe will suffer the same fate?
By that logic, why is anyone even driving cars any more? I mean, if Toyota cars are unsafe and need recalls, then certainly all cars are unsafe and need recalls too, right?
Tail Wagging;
Your elite masters are trying to reduce the population of the planet. It would seem that at least in that effort they are finding success! And the USSA is downwind!
If depopluation was really desired, they would have done it in China or India for much better results.
Fed fights fires. Send them in
How can I adopt a Japanese family in distress?
Not sure how you find a Japanese family but they should be in distress after you adopt them...
edited to: never mind
Riiiight, because there are 3 nuke reactors on fire in Southwestern U.S.A.
WTF is going on on this thread. I was just reading a post drifted up and poof! gone. Now posts that were not there b4. WTF. TD, are you Article 15ing us. Does Tepco employ hackers?
TG, Tyler got rid of the 14 page poster, twice!
(I'm next)
A little bit more info:
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/03/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-reactor-no4-on...
As usual, it is quicker to list the TEA party types that voted against the CR (54), versus the RePubes that voted for. Boner has to go.
So northeast side would be front right of the reactor building from our perspective (with sea in front of us). [of course it could be on the inside]
Wouldn't al-qaeda love to claim responsibility for this, anywhere but their NIMBY, will they double their efforts?
As soon as the Japs requested foreign assistance i knew the situation was going to be a 10/10 on the fubar-o-meter. The Japs are incredibly insular and proud , probably more so than even Russians. They dont ask for help. Ever. Unless...
in canada they now refuse to sell you iodine. like, they want us dead!
They are joining the club? Damn memos....
"in Canada they now refuse to sell you iodine. like, they want us dead!"
Where do you think they are going to put all the Japanese? Hockey night in Canada will become Iron Chef Night in Japanda.
Oh Japanada, our new home and native land.....
This is what I think.
No one is @ the plant any longer and this is much, much, worse then reported.
Think about it...
The Fukushima nuclear plant got hit with an earthquake THAN a tsunami, then it fucking blew up TWICE and now it's on fire and also cracked. Now, go to the mirror look at yourself in the face and tell yourself that the plant is still operational. If you can do that and believe yourself then you have strong self-denial skills and I envy you.
I also think spent plutonium/uranium rods have been shot out of the two reactors that blew. The government is in FULL lie mode
minor correction "...has blown up four times, excluding the two fires in the rod pool in cooling tower #4..."
Of course, this doesn't keep nuke industry astroturfers from tring to spin positive.
There ya go.
No engineers are at the site. What would they be doing anyway?
The bottom line is this situation is out of human control and this is now just a waiting game.
AND the one reactor that hasn't had pool issues yet, has a possibly cracked containment shell.
It is a long list.
Hard to believe but the latest explosion cited injured workers.
bad-ass injured workers.
Injured nothing, no one is there.
Still waiting for the perspective of that nuclear "expert" who's been posting on all the other nuke threads and calls everyone else a douchebag because he knows it all...
Very true....so get the fuck out!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/asia/16contain.html?_r=1
flawed general electric designs. they said today that they could not be sued about it.......ah duh????? they also used the same design here. imagine that. i think they should shut them all down. this is too dangerous and we simply do not want this happening in the states as well.
So did we ever send people to help - not just troops but plant experts?
My guess is that once again we did nothing.
Nightmare! Unfortunatelly this calls for much faster and courageous leadership than Japan has. Those 50 people trying to cool so many different reactors, storage pools and who knows what else is there are too few and have too little means avaiable to them. After this Pandoras boxes are open it is going to be too late, and it looks as if already is!
don't short the courage of the Japanese people. I see zero evidence they are lacking in that area.
Performance of leaders can only be judged after sufficient time has passed to get the full picture of the decision chain.
I really think they are a very brave and tough bunch. It is probably not reasonable to expect much more from their leadership either, they got their hands full with this combination of earthquake, tsunami and nuclear meltdown. It just calls for an extraordinary response and I hope somehow they manage to produce it. However it seems bit understaffed and underpowered this action now. It was not my intention to offend anybody just to say that they are running out of time, obviously.
And that will be me saying someone over here should launch a sun into that place and erase it.
I guess if that would work, Russians would have done it at Chernobyl.
no no no, the Russians are inefficient Slobs. They scatter nuke junk all over the place wherever they damn well please. That is probably why half the hardware in the USSR military works so well, no need for a manicured, golf course equipped base to work out of.
the way this is going we may easily find out that japan has a doomsday machine nobody was told about.
It's called Fukushima.
Official: Japan's nuclear situation nearing severity of Chernobyl
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear/#
some people around here keep saying this is not as bad as Chernobyl and I keep reading otherwise..........Hmmmmm.........
Well, guess we can watch and wait but the no-fly plus journalist exclusion zone is pretty hard core. They seem to be sinking over there. Not much for it but to watch the counters now.
Wonder what happened to the government's announcement that they would start posting radiation data from the prefectures twice a day?
Kyodo news says nuke experts think it may be Level 7 disaster.
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/03/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-maybe-level-7....
Central Planners have been spinning every market wheel and firing every arrow just trying to keep the markets up praying something is resolved so the ascension can continue. Were closing in on the end of QE 2. We might see some market rumors and Fed governors talk up QE3 tomorrow.
Rhetoric replaces Fundamentals now.
Few questions for people who don't talk thru their a**:
- It's been 4 Days since reactors where shut down, HOW MANY DAYS it takes for them to cool off under normal conditions?
- How do SPENT FUEL RODS catch fire?
- How strong is the RADIATION RELEASE from BURNING FUEL RODS vs SHUT DOWN RODS in the reactors( if containment vessel is breached)?
Spent fuel rods catch 'fire' if not submerged. Water cools them, and keeps O2 from oxidizing them (that's the 'fire", like Magnesium or Potassium).
Core can take months, basically the same reasons, only worse, cuz it's putting out neutrons.
Radiation release is a tough one. The burning rods have to have something else, like water, to transport the radioactivity, like steam.
The shit doesn't just jump out of the reactor.
The Zironium cladding catches fire at around 2200 degress. The fuel pins inside are a ceramic embed with a melting point of around 5000 degrees.
So these SPENT RODS are sitting on top of the building, several floors above reacotr, and caught on Fire @ 2200C?!
What's the MELTING POINT of METAL CONTAINMENT VESSEL?
Depends on the metal as you well know.
Around 2600 - 2800 degrees F.
Please, everyone panic; I have TZA to dump at open.
Pay no attention to the shit occurring in DC.
If they don't know what media control is, please call 1-800-OBAMAMA for free consultation.
So true.
DUMB QUESTION: Is it possible humanity does not know how to "fix" or "correct" this situation hence the "not knowing" problem? Kind of like the GOM which is still spewing oil even though no one cares anymore excepting this is not oil but radioactivity?
Why is it they had video of the reactor #1 and reactor #3 explosions, but absolutely nothing on reactor #2 which is their plutonium reactor? Not even a sat image. Why?
tweet from HirokoTabuchi Hiroko Tabuchi
Good news: fire, flames no longer seen at Fukushima reactor. But it's unclear what's happening; workers can't go near it bc of radiation. 10 minutes ago
There are knowledgeable people here so can someone explain the function of the torus - which I think is the donut shaped thing below the reactor and at the bottom of the thick concrete 'last line of defense' container.
Specifically, the TEPCO and Japanese tv seemed to reference this part of the overall reactor as possibly being damaged after the interior #2 blast. Since Edemo also seemed to refer to the outer containment shell being damaged, what would be the dangers if both were damaged? Besides making everything worse, I mean.
I just had a totally badass idea.
35 million fucking people are about to become homeless inTokyo when all hell breaks loose. We have 7-8 million homes in foreclosure (back of the envelope calculations from last year's memory so correct me if I'm wrong).
USA cuts a deal with Japan. COMPLETE forgiveness of all UST's in exchange (+ every ounce of gold you got) for the houses and settlement priviliges for all Japanese refugees.
Japan takes care of their people. USA wipes out debt. Everyone wins. (Except for the predatory speculators)
Brilliant!
Agreed.
Where they going to work? My bad, Ben will pay them.
Good question, they could displace illegal aliens in about 5 minutes. If you think Mexicans work hard, think again and look at the Japanese.
Yours is truly a Superior Intellect! I bow in awe to your greatness! It would even give us a reason to rapid accelerate our Old Folks industry capabilities, and it would all be in place for our fookin Boomers in short order. Scintillating!
BWAAHAHAHA
call the aliens on Nibiru
maybe they can help....
Have you talked with them, too? They seemed like such nice folks. Quiet, unassuming. Always friendly and smiling. Kept their lawn and garden tidy. Never any wild parties. Never ever would we have thought that they were coming here to eat us earthlings for food.
For those who want accurate, detailed information on what happens in a core meltdown, this Wikipedia page on "Corium," lays it out in pretty good detail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corium_%28nuclear_reactor%29
This British licensing article reads almost like a primer for the Fukushima event:
http://www.epr-reactor.co.uk/ssmod/liblocal/docs/PCSR/Chapter%2016%20-%2...
A: second link is interesting.
so... back to the spent fuel again. Do you think the SFP is compromised? Maybe the FP filtration and and demin make up is no longer available.
Think about this... At TMI we lost the instrumentation because the pressurizer relief tank ruptured and flooded the containment. (PWR design) Anyway the containment flooded and the Control Room lost all remote sensors and some drives because they were under water and shorted. Here at this plant we have a containment that is probably flooded and a reactor bldgs that literally has had the roof blown off them. Bottom line -- how can the instrumentation be working? They might be driving blind and perhaps operating some things manually (if so, these poor bastards are walking dead).
Back to the spent fuel...
SFP...
Depends on how old fuel is...
If it is MOX fuel... (BTW, my brother works on the MOX unit being built at SRS)
and the level of the (sea water?) water in the pool.
sans shield water, there is nothing between the stars and the top of the exposed fuel bundles but sky
...as I stated before this is the nightmare scenario SF melting down (outside the containment) to the torus and a massive steam vent result sending spent fuel (maybe MOX plutonium) into the jet stream.
So ... lets discuss different outcomes and probabilities
Best / Worst and most likely cases based on what we know.
You still there?
Best case...time is on their side and they can keep water going in long enough, and venting occasionally to reduce pressures, and eventually they will go cold. Worst...well, they are dealing with four of these beasts, it seems their ability to pump water is limited, and at least some compromise of a torus or a vent pipe is a reality. If one gets out of control, then radiation may become high enough they will have to abandon the whole facility. Then, over the period of days, each reactor goes dry, rods overheat.....the whole thing gets dumped into the bottom of the drywell.....and we will see what will happen....charting new territory here, Pete. The Spent pools will also enter in to this at some point, But I do not see a huge issue here...other than possibly cladding burn and a lot of radiation and blown out, hot debris if another hydrogen explosion goes off.. I just don't see how if these things are abandoned, there will be enough water in the reactor cores to create any kind of significant steam explosion. Hydrogen, yes. But any way you shake it, if the best case does not happen, then you get a serious spread of contamination and high levels of localized radiation. At that point, the weather becomes the determining factor. Keep in mind, I may be terribly wrong.
The SFP may be compromised...it is hard to say at this point. But, if the radiation levels get high enough and the place is evacuated, with obviously some containment compromised (maybe the torus), then at some point they will be. My feeling is they have no, or very limited sensory input on what is going on. Power is down, battery backup down, and although many analog gauges will work under these conditions (designed that way) if you do not have control room access, it becomes a moot point.
@ Horatio
A repost
Not a problem.
I was watching some local politics.
I just wanted a sanity check.
If I get this. This is what it means. It is rather like the Richter Scale.
Where 2 is double 1. And 3 is double 2.
Which is to say an exponential crisis.
I am astounded, again, that this is not public.
I am also astounded that this thread has not picked up on it.
But I just can't get over the fact. And it is a fact. That no one here wants to contemplate that the roofs of all of those buildings were full to the gills with radiating rods.
Why is this not an issue.
Why are people concentrating on Building 4?"
Are there any gas masks left in the U.S. ?
Because you're going to need them.
Them and a Geiger counter.
The nuclear cloud will reach the U.S. west coast on 2011/03/18.
@ Tyler
"The latest blaze erupted in the outer housing of the containment vessel at the No. 4 unit at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex, said Hajimi Motujuku, a spokesman for the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co. Japan's nuclear safety agency also confirmed the fire, whose cause was not immediately known."
"The latest blaze erupted in the outer housing of the containment vessel at the No. 4"
You do understand that that is a distraction.
What happened the rod storage in Building 1 and Building 3 when they blew up?
and what about building 7 ??????
/sarc/
Were in a much different place now.
Building 1 and Building 3 did have dirty bombs.
They were dirty bombs.
I'm not calling conspiracy.
I just want to know where the spent rods from Building 1 and Building 3 went.
And that is why I am not convinced that Building 4 is the problem.
It looks more like a distraction.
After all what's another one.
The spent rods may be in the rod pool...most likely are. The pool is very heavy concrete that is tied to the containment vessel, that would be my guess. But, they will also be drying out...
re Emergency Generator Failures"
Quotes from link above at Spanish Inquisition:
"...in my former capacity as lead investigator in several government nuclear plant fraud and racketeering investigations. ...
The failure of emergency systems at Japan's nuclear plants comes as no surprise to those of us who have worked in the field. ...
The government team I worked with caught them once, in 1988, at the Shoreham plant in New York. ... so engineers were told to change the tests from 'failed' to 'passed.'...
...official line that the tsunami disabled the pumps needed to cool the reactors, implying that water unexpectedly got into the diesel generators that run the pumps.
These safety back-up systems are the 'EDGs' in nuke-speak: Emergency Diesel Generators. ...
Back in the day, when we checked the emergency back-up diesels in America, a mind-blowing number flunked. At the New York nuke, for example, the builders swore under oath that their three diesel engines were ready for an emergency. They'd been tested. The tests were faked, the diesels run for just a short time at low speed. When the diesels were put through a real test under emergency-like conditions, the crankshaft on the first one snapped in about an hour, then the second and third. We nicknamed the diesels, "Snap, Crackle and Pop." " [End quotes]
Urge all to read full report at
http://www.gregpalast.com/no-bs-info-on-japan-nuclearobama-invites-tokyo-electric-to-build-us-nukes-with-taxpayer-funds/
edit
Good article on GE’s criminal reactor design, with no safe hydrogen venting and fuel rods stored within the main reactor building. http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/node/509
This is an excellent article.
now is not the time to get on to this: ..."This may explain why people in India are reportedly rethinking GE’s bid for a big piece of the country’s proposed market for $150 billion in new nuclear power plants in that country"
The APBWR is far from the Mark I BWR design. There needs to be open discussion and public involvement on nuclear technology -- including operations, waste, design, etc...
Just be careful what you ask for. The fact your reading this, and can type a reply shows that you currently use and indirectly pay for and support nuclear energy. I know that last part is not fair, I will agree -- it's like saying you support the Fed because you used FRNs to buy something today. But you do.
Ok, this is my take, after studying the various official comments for the past 5 days (I have not been reading other views on this, just analysing the accumulating official BS);
What we know about the radiation rises so far:
What level is safe?
(mSv = milli Severts)
2 mSv /year is the natural human annual background dosage.
0.02 mSv from the average x-ray
100 mSv (50 times a natural annual dose) can lead to cancer in humans.
11:00PM (AUST EST), Mar 14 2011- it emerged that the No.2 reactor had suddenly developed a serious internal leak and the reactor somehow drained its water completely (confirmed at 1:20AM) and it could not be refilled, and the fuel was 100% exposed. Whatever occurred caused the pump that was pumping sea-water into the reactor to fail. My initial GUESS was that a spike of pressure burst an internal pipe and super high internal reactor pressure forced the water back towards the pump causing it to fail. No.2's core then began an accelerating meltdown and radiation products in the steam was measured at over >3,000 milli-Severts/hr in the early hours of the morning, on Mar 15 2011. This was already about 30 times above level known to cause cancers in humans.
Between midnight and dawn on Mar 15 2011 a meltdown and fire broke out in stored spent fuel rods, still inside the sealed No.4 reactor vessel, where water cooling of the spent fuel rods had, of course, also failed. The decay of very high levels of highly radioactive daughter products in the spent fuel-rods makes them strongly self-heating. So they and the residual water got hotter and boiled off the water, then the rods melted last night, even though the reactor had not been in use, at the time of the quake. This was known about by the utility, and the Govt -there is no chance at all that people at the reactor site did not know this was occurring. They chose not to tell anyone because I suspect they were not allowed to leave spent 'hot' fuel sitting inside a reactor.
This already very radioactive fuel (just as full of plutonium as MOX BTW) will have created an enormous explosion and fire, and it definitely was NOT "put out". IT BLEW UP, and the fuel was thus separated (by explosive dispersal and vaporising) so the reaction heating was diluted, thus terminating the nuclear-'fire'. This is similar to what occurred at Chernobyl. The nuclear fire went out by itself because the fuel mass was dispersed by its exponential self-heating and then explosion. Anyone in the area will most likely have gotten a lethal dose.
The result is that water injection operations probably then became impossible, or else seriously impaired, and also became lethal, as the fire at No.4 began, and almost all of the 1,400 workers fled (i.e. they were 'evacuated'), but ~50 reportedly stayed. It will have become worse since the fire blew itself apart, and thus ended.
There were ~1400 workers there early on Monday night ... managing 6 overheating reactors (No.5 and No.6 are also seriously overheating now as well) ... and trying to keep the adhoc water injection going ... in a severely irradiated environ ... with a nuclear fire ... and they are probably getting sick and incapacitated.
See the problem?
The rest is predictable;
At about ~6:00AM, Mar 15, 2011 a "strange noise" was heard and reported coming from No.2 reactor.
At 6:14AM, March 15 2011, a very powerful internal explosion was heard and observed at the base of the No.2 reactor (presumably via video), and No.2's containment base area was reportedly damaged, and its previous very high internal core pressure immediately fell, indicating a containment breach and leak. Then "highly-radioactive" emissions were measured to be coming from No.2, immediately after this, "very powerful impulse or explosion".
At 8:15AM on Mar 15 2011, at Fukushima-1's main gate, the radiation measurement (with wind blowing out to sea) was at 8,217 MICRO-Severts/hr (MICRO-Severts/hr not merely MILLI-Severts/hr!). The terms then used by officials switched to "Highly radioactive", which inescapably implied direct escape of particles and isotopes from an actually melted core and a breached containment vessel at No.2.
This info began to emerge on TV from 9AM (regarding No.2's explosion) but most of it was released at about 10AM, (when the nuclear powered fire in the spent-fuel rods stored in No.4, had already been raging for at least 5 hours, and possibly 10 hours). There was also ZERO video of events released yesterday. But most importantly, No.4's fire was not even mentioned until the Prime Minister dropped this bombshell at about 12:03PM on NHK TV, which was at least 7 hours after the nuclear fire in No.4's reactor had started spewing highly-radioactive particles into the air. And this was at least 6 hours after they new for sure this was happening.
They didn't immediately warn people it was occurring, and to get out. They tried to get their political and PR ducks-in-a-row - first!
As for a "cooling-pond fire", I think this is complete bullshit, the Prime Minister already admitted at 12:05PM that the spent fuel at No.4 WAS STILL SITTING IN THE REACTOR. In other words, the power utility had been using the sealed reactor itself as an impromptu "cooling pond". That is the nature of the "cooling-pond" fire. That story was designed to deflect from the fact that they were doing something they should not have been doing ... for the very reason that this occurred. i.e. It could still melt down if stored in a reactor core, Chernobyl-style, if left in the reactor and the water boiled off.
That's why you are supposed to put it into a real cooling pond, as you can easily keep topping-up a cooling pond but you can't easily of quickly top-up a sealed reactor, with a totally failed cooling system.
That is why No.4 blew up and 'burned'
You don't leave spent fuel in a reactor for months or years, as it's much more dangerous than putting it into a dedicated cooling pond - but it is cheaper to leave it in the reactor, prior to reprocessing the rods. A reactor is not a cooling pond, but they were treating it as one. This fire, according to the Japanese Prime Minister himself, WAS ACTUALLY IN REACTOR No.4. It was NOT in a cooling-pond.
As is the "NEW" ... er ... 'fire', today, in No.4.
Once inner containment is breached, as at No.2 (and clearly, also at No.4), the event then becomes no different to a naked-core Chernobyl-type meltdown and fire. Containment is effectively non-existent at that point, and the former protection of the core shielding against direct fire and explosive dispersal is now gone close to zero. The radiation hazard to humans thus greatly increased from this, well before dawn, on Mar 15 2011. The radiation was then hundreds or even thousands of times higher than levels known to cause cancer in humans. The very worst has happened. And it is being released in mobile form into the air, via internal nuclear-powered 'fires', in at least two of four reactors (No.2 and No.4). Which is extremely odd, considering these were being treated as less distressed reactors, prior to 11PM on March 14 2011.
In fact, No.4 reactor had not even been mentioned,at all up until 12:03PM on Mar 15 2011. Which was when the PM also admitted that;
"... and the reading seems very high. And there is still a very high risk of more radioactive material from coming out ..." - PM of Japan, Naoto Kan , NHK TV at 12:03 AM on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2011. (translated)
As it turns out, from info released thus far, No.4 had exploded several hours before No.2's explosion, at 6:14AM. My supposition is that the initial explosion of No.4 actually occurred just after 11PM on Mar 14, 2011. And this was the "serious event" that cut off water-injection into No.2, and why it could not be restored, which then fully exposed its core, which exploded 7-hours later, just after dawn.
Such a core-fire can not be fought directly by human beings. The nuclear self-reaction nuclear heating can only stop when the melted fuel itself is dispersed, usually via explosion, or flow. Dropping water on it will most probably lead to super-radioactive stream, and eventually highly radioactive rain, and/or a local steam or hydrogen explosion.
We will see more core explosions as all these reactors do the same thing now. No.3 will probably be next, followed by No.1, and any other unknown about reactors that were also holding spent fuel in the containment core. These fuel rod fires will be dispersed and ended by their own explosion, and radiation will reach unimaginably high levels of intensity.
The surrounding buildings may also burn, chemically via oxidation. A Reactor 'fire' does not need oxygen.
Anyone still pretending this is not as bad as Chernobyl needs to be told such basic known facts, and asked to shut-up. These facts indicate this is going to be several times more radioactive than Chernobyl. We are yet to see how far it disperses regionally, and we certainly are not being told the whole story of how bad this is. Nor how big the fires and plumes were, or still are. A nuclear-fire in fuel rods, after a hydrogen explosion, is exactly what occurred at Chernobyl. And that is exactly what's occurring at Fukushima-1 No.4, yesterday and today. And also at No.2. Anyone who presumes this is not the very same thing as Chernobyl, is either not paying attention, or does not want to pay attention, or is not very bright.
Nordic rain-deer may not be eating radioactive lichen this time, but the North Pacific plankton and tuna fisheries and rice farmers will be. Decommissioning and cleaning up the contamination, just at the reactor complex, will take decades.
When this finally sinks in all 49 remaining Japanese reactors will be shutdown for emergency inspection and countermeasures. Then these will resume operation. I strongly suspect that those reactors, exposed to a major tsunami (i.e. most of them), that can not be fully protected via engineering works, will remain closed-down and may never be permitted to operate again.
And Japan's economy is going to get one heck of a shock from that process.
Nevertheless, nuclear energy is a fuel we will keep using, and should, and must, so we need to do it much better than this corrupt secretive circus of govt and utility.
Then the news comes out that 'another' ... er ... 'fire', at Fukushima-1, No.4 reactor.
As I see it this is bullshit. The first 'fire' was NOT an actual fire, and was NOT "put out". What probably happened is part of the pooling melted fuel heated exponentially and just blew itself apart reducing its temperature. But now more fuel has melted, and accumulated (possibly from an aftershock), thus the nuclear self-heating reaction has accelerated again. Hence, a 'new' 'fire'. So now its ablating the containment vessel again. We know there was an explosion at No.4 yesterday, because officials said the outer containment had been partially blown out. This is what 'put the fire out', yesterday. We could get a much bigger bang today.
We also know it is a full-blown meltdown of spent fuel rods, because this was not an operating reactor. It was NOT HOT before the quake, it was cold. And cooling ponds don;t just drain. The failure of reactor cooling water circulation caused self-heating of the spent fuel, and thus the 'fire', which is actually a true un-contained nuclear meltdown. Just as if the reactor had been operating.
The radiation flux is also "too high to approach the reactor" to "fight" or douse the nuclear 'fire'. The 'fire' is clearly a run-away meltdown. It may have triggered secondary chemical fires in surrounding buildings, or soon will, but this is a full-scale nuclear meltdown.
TPTB can't admit that this is what it is. They totally fucked up and created a full-blown and completely unconfined Chernobyl-type 'fire' and a similarly ultra-intensely radioactive metallic vapor plume.
They especially don't want to admit that there are more completely unconfined meltdown 'fires' to come.
They also don't want to create the most intensely irradiated nuclear reactor site in history, exceeding the contamination immediately surrounding the Chernobyl plant.
They can't face this is what they have done to Japan.
The longer it takes to publicly the more they will fuck around, talking complete nonsense about things 'stabilizing' soon.
The only 'stabilization' will be that this will go on for months, and then years, and the outcomes will get worse the more the pretend that this not what it clearly is.
EDIT: I suspect No.5 and No.6 also contain spent fuel rods ... no active cooling = overheating = evaporation = no water = bang! Bet I'm right ... only water injection can stop it .. with 50 very sick very tired guys ...
woah big boy: still reading your impressive novella (and it is impressive) up until... " I think this is complete bullshit, the Prime Minister already admitted at 12:05PM that the spent fuel at No.4 WAS STILL SITTING IN THE REACTOR. In other words, the power utility had been using the sealed reactor itself as an impromptu "cooling pond". "
That is where I might be able to help you fill in some of the blanks to perhaps help you put a more correct thesis together. Having said that I think your doing a good job.
Still reading
Good synopsis, and I understand why and how you came up with the theory on the "stored spent fuel" in the reactor, but I don't think it is correct, nor do I think it makes a big difference in your premise. I can share my reasons as to why I beleive that, but it really does not make a big difference.
I am totally with you on the staff resources, not to mention that these guys will be getting sick about now - emotionally and physically. They are sadly dead men, (much accelerated life span than the rest of us at least.)
The newer the fuel is (after reacting) the hotter it still is. I think the SFP (MOx or not) is the worse issue -- they don't have level control (or LT) or make up water -- I believe the poor guys are filling it manually by opening and closing valves and or just using Fkg hoses. The fuel in the reactor and the SFP are both Fkd -- the SFP is the worse of the two IMO -- it's destination (in a full melt down) is the through the RB corner rooms and then into to the top of the torus -- erupting into a massive SF enriched steam cloud. There is most likely a lot more SF bundles in the pool then people realize. They may have had "dry storage" casks on-site, but in all likelihood the pool racks are probably full of bundles.
You notice how nobody talks about the radwaste bldg, control bldg. or turbine bldg.? These are also questions. Less dramatic than the RB, but serious none-the-less. What's in the turbine condenser right now - MS valves were closed but the sea water now used for cooling is condensate makeup? what pump(s) are working or not working? where is all the radwaste going - certainly the tanks were filled day one -- can they monitor or control ANYTHING remotely from the CR? secondary to a meltdown-up, yes -- unimportant, no
Thanks for that Pete,
I've come to the view that Tokyo is doing a bernank ... buying as much time as it is possible to get ... before it pops, and plops ...
Those poor guys in there are stretching out the timeframe so the country will be in the best shape it can be when the SHTF.
Hence the call out for international nuclear assistance about 36 hours ago.
I strongly suspect they do in fact know what's going on here, they're just playing dumb really well.
And they dont want to demo the place vaporizing everything with a nuke. It's gonna get messier and messier, the same way mold consumes a home after a flood.
All the king's men cannot put humpty dumpty back together, Rome burns while Nero fiddles.
Peace delivered by Missile in 30 minutes or less. Gauranteed.
Radical solution, but I guess a smallish ground burst tactical (or two) would indeed disperse the contamination much faster, given everything in the area is already wrecked and evacuated. Not going to happen of course.
"As for a "cooling-pond fire", I think this is complete bullshit, the Prime Minister already admitted at 12:05PM that the spent fuel at No.4 WAS STILL SITTING IN THE REACTOR."
Spot on.
There were no "cooling ponds".
There was only storage in the attic.
So what happened to the rods in the attics of Building 1 and Building 3?
The tops blew off both buildings.
Would Sir like to try some of our radioactive lobster?
I like lobster.
It appears I may have to get used to restricting myself to one a year.
That of course I would only do on the advice of my doctor.
:)
There was fuel in both the reactor core and the Spent Fuel Pool - almost 100% probability.
Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that at all, I just disagree that the 'fire' started in a cooling-pond ... that was just some off the wall theory that came out of some Vienna based 'expert'... if I remember correctly.
Yes.
In ALL 4 Buildings.
Not just Building 4.
Indeed!
The point is, they had to come up with a reason why a non-operating reactor was melting down ... tricky to xplane 2 da plebz.
Like;
"How can No.4 be burn'n Mr PM?"
<crickets>
If they say the reactor has been inoperable since Nov 2010 and the short-lived isotopes are decayed but the water stopped, so the thing still got hotter and hotter ... over 4 days ... anyway
That rasies a few questions, like, "why had the fuel not been put in cooling ponds already?"
Which is a tricky one.
Excellent summary, read every word.
They just showed a live feed from Fukushima on NHK (at last) and there was definitely still lots of smoke or steam coming out of reactor #4, proving TEPCO's assertion that the problem extinguished itself to be totally disingenious.
Building 4 is a distraction.
What happened the spent fuel in Building 1 and Building 3?
See Chernobyl:
Location Radiation (roentgens per hour) Sieverts per hour (SI Unit) Vicinity of the reactor core 30,000 300 Fuel fragments 15,000–20,000 150-200 Debris heap at the place of circulation pumps 10,000 100 Debris near the electrolyzers 5,000–15,000 50-150 Water in the Level +25 feedwater room 5,000 50 Level 0 of the turbine hall 500–15,000 5-150 Area of the affected unit 1,000–1,500 10-15 Water in Room 712 1,000 10 Control room, shortly after explosion 3–5 .03-.05 Gidroelektromontazh depot 30 .3 Nearby concrete mixing unit 10–15 .10-.15Excellent writeup dude.
see greg Palast on failed Emergency Electric Generators
http://www.gregpalast.com/no-bs-info-on-japan-nuclearobama-invites-tokyo-electric-to-build-us-nukes-with-taxpayer-funds/
No BAD NEWS = Higher NIKKEI
PS: Nice writeup above
The Nikkei is mental, the thing should tank ... must be full of hydrogen.
What happened the rod storage in Building 1 and Building 3 when they blew up?
- LATEST
They just raised maximum radiation level for workers by 2.5 to 250msv so now they can legaly be forced to go out to No#4 reactor cooling pods
How much can 50 people do?
It was cranking out >8200 micro-Sv yesterday ... at the main gate ... you'd be puking within minutes of walking up to No.4
Yesterday (14th, Tuesday) I read a news site correction where they apologised for quoting values in 'micro-Sv' when they should have been in milli-Sv.
Surprising number of people seem to get the two confused, or don't know which way the magnitude increases. As an electronics engineer who uses these multipliers all the time, it sticks out like a thumb with radiation burns. Correct factors are:
Giga 1,000,000,000 G
Mega 1,000,000 M
Kilo 1,000 KSv
unit 1 Sievert Sv
milli 0.001 mSv
micro 0.000,001 μSv
nano 0.000,000,001 nSv
pico 0.000,000,000,001 p
That "8200 micro-Sv" was probably 8200 milli-Sv, ie 8.2 Sv.
From Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation
"The worldwide average background dose for a human being is about 2.4 millisievert (mSv) per year"
So quoting a raised level in μSv is ridiculous.