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IAEA On Fukushima Plutonium
It appears the plutonium discovered earlier, which according to some Japanese reports was so safe it was borderline edible, may not be all that safe. Per the IAEA:
After taking soil samples at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, Japanese authorities today confirmed finding traces of plutonium that most likely resulted from the nuclear accident there. The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency told the IAEA that the Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) had found concentrations of plutonium in two of five soil samples.
Traces of plutonium are not uncommon in soil because they were deposited worldwide during the atmospheric nuclear testing era. However, the isotopic composition of the plutonium found at Fukushima Daiichi suggests the material came from the reactor site, according to TEPCO officials. Still, the quantity of plutonium found does not exceed background levels tracked by Japan's Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology over the past 30 years.
Which update however must have come some hours ago, when the Plutonium was still concidered safe. The latest update from TEPCO, via Bloomberg, tells a slightly different story:
- AGENCY: PLUTONIUM SHOWS SERIOUSNESS OF CURRENT SITUATION
We only have one question: how can the situation be serious if the Plutonium is so safe Kan is preparing to eat it for breakfast with a side of three eyed tuna tomorrow on national TV.
Ironically refuting the IAEA optimism this time around is Japan itself:
But Japan's own nuclear safety agency was concerned at the plutonium samples, whose levels of radioactive decay ranged from 0.18 to 0.54 becquerels per kg.
"While it's not the level harmful to human health, I am not optimistic. This means the containment mechanism is being breached so I think the situation is worrisome," agency official Hidehiko Nishiyama was quoted as saying by Jiji news agency.
Workers at Fukushima are resigned to a struggle of weeks or months to re-start cooling systems vital to control the reactors and avert disaster. Their conditions are extremely dangerous, earning them sympathy and admiration round the world.
On Monday, highly contaminated water was found in concrete tunnels extending beyond one reactor, while at the weekend radiation hit 100,000 times over normal in water inside another.
That poses a major dilemma for TEPCO which wants to douse the reactors to cool them, but not worsen the radiation spread.
Fires, blasts, smoke and steam have posed other hazards.
Japan says a partial meltdown of fuel rods inside reactor No. 2 has contributed to the radiation levels.
The crisis, the worst nuclear accident since Chernobyl in 1986, has contaminated vegetables and milk from the area, as well as the surrounding sea. U.S. experts said groundwater, reservoirs and the sea all faced "significant contamination."
With towns on the northeast coast reduced to apocalyptic landscapes of mud and debris, more than a quarter of a million people are homeless. The event may be the world's costliest natural disaster, with estimates of damage topping $300 billion.
The environmental group Greenpeace said its experts had confirmed dangerous radiation of up to 10 microsieverts per hour in Iitate village, 40 km (25 miles) northwest of the plant.
It called for the extension of a 20-km (12-mile) evacuation zone. "It is clearly not safe for people to remain in Iitate, especially children and pregnant women," Greenpeace said, urging Japan to "stop choosing politics over science".
In most countries the maximum permissible annual dose for radiation workers is 50 millisieverts, or 50,000 microsieverts, according to the World Nuclear Association Industry body.
Tens of thousands of people have been evacuated from a 20-km (12 mile) radius around the plant. Those within a further 10-km radius have been told by the government to stay indoors or, better still, leave too.
Beyond the evacuation zone, traces of radiation have been found in tap water in Tokyo and as far away as Iceland.
Japanese officials and international experts have generally said the levels away from the plant were not dangerous for human beings, who in any case face higher radiation doses on a daily basis from natural sources, X-rays or flying.
In downtown Tokyo, a Reuters reading on Tuesday showed 0.20-0.22 microsieverts per hour, within the global average of natural ambient radiation of 0.17-0.39 microsieverts per hour given by the World Nuclear Association.
And while we are enjoying the Plut-On, Plut-Off show, here is Kyodo with the latest update on US radioactivity.
Trace amounts of radioactive material believed to have come from Japan's quake-hit Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have been detected in the atmosphere in South Carolina, North Carolina and Florida, Reuters news service reported Monday, citing officials.
There is no current threat to public safety, the report said, quoting Drew Elliot, a spokesman for the power generation and distribution company Progress Energy Inc., which operates some of the power plants in the southern states.
Monitors at several nuclear plants in the three states picked up low levels of radioactive iodine-131, the report said.
''If there were radiation coming from one of our own sites, we would be seeing other types of radiation than iodine-131,'' Elliot was quoted as saying.
In the United States, radioactive materials believed to have come from the Fukushima nuclear plant have also been detected in several other states, including Hawaii, California, Nevada and Massachusetts.
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Cliff you are so pathetically transparent.
Your desperation to rid yourself of people who embarrass you daily is bitchlike
Your daily whining about how no-one pays attention to the facts you write reminds me of a little baby. In fact, your new name is Polly Prissy Pants.
Christ, you argue so long and so hard over things that don't really matter (does it really matter if the LD50 of Pu is 10 ng/Kg, 1mg/Kg, or 10mg/Kg? The fact is, if Pu is all over the place, no-one is going to live or work there). Why? Just state your case WITHOUT insult, and people other than me will take you seriously, and might actually bother reading your whole post. I, personally, am so enraged by you that I will be your enemy for a while, no matter what you do.
Whatever. No matter what I say or do, you will shit all over it with you mouth diarrhea, so I will leave you with this--the ONLY reason people argue with you is because of your bad attitude. Take a cue from Aristarchan, who I think we can both agree is both an expert, is not an alarmist, and is both soft spoken AND well respected. This is as opposed to you. You are so abrasive that I would rather beat your face in than admit I am wrong to you. To others, I am happy to admit when I am wrong. But not to you. I am sure many others feel the same way.
So stop bitching at people. Or cry more, and continue to be Polly Prissy Pants. Whatever, I don't care.
yes it does matter if the LD50 is 10 ng or 10mg.
It matters a lot actually. That was explained to you, but you don't get it.
Your post can be distilled to "who cares about the facts, things are baaaaaaaaddddddddd ZOMFG"
Don't expect respect from anybody if that's your tack. And I don't care if you admit when you're wrong; I really rather like seeing people like you thrash about like fish out of water.
"We have to keep cooling the fuel so it doesn't reach criticality," the Tepco spokesman said, adding that radiation levels have barely fallen at the site."
(Source: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Video---Japan-Global-Energy-...)
This was days after they had confirmation of neutron beam detection, which meant criticality had been reached.
Or how about saying that various prefectures are "under survey" when we all know full well that they know the levels in those areas. Unless you believe every sensor in three prefectures spontaneously shut down.
How about the differences between the govt disclosed radiation readings and the JAEA readings?
Seriously, there are many examples of obfuscation and lying.
Safe for your health plutonium sounds like a lie to me.
We have a brain specialist in Quebec that had found the average human to be lying 3 times in 10 minutes...
Yeah, but he was lying too.
If he repeated the statement 10 times, he'd only be lying 3 times. On average.
I personally think they lied about the amount of radiation in the ocean. The freighter that pulled into port in Russian and got quarantined along with the crew was evidence. Too hot for Russia is OK for Japan?
Also how can you have irradiated tap water in Tokyo one day and the next day it disappears? I could see that if things at Fukushima improved but they continue to get worse.
Why not error on the side of safety?
Iodine-134 in Florida, NC, & SC? That's not cool with me Trav, and it shouldn't be cool with you either.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/28/us-nuclear-japan-south-idUSTRE...
Last Saturday I was out tending to my rose garden in South Florida. I spent almost the entire morning up until around 5pm working. It was an odd day in the atmosphere, sunny and hazy. In S.Florida 99% of all sunny days are brilliantly clear.
I was exerting myself with some normal organic gardening work. The temps were in the low 80's, not too hot. A perfect day for tending to my gardens.
Around 12:30pm I projectile vomited, out of no where. This was a first for me. I must tell you how healthy I am. Perfect blood work, healthy family history, no problems. Regular diet.
Coincidence?
The next morning I was on a flight out of there to our other place. Now I hear about .gov's recognition of radioactive Iodine in the US. Better late than never, I guess.
TEPCO has not been fully forthcoming with the truth. You could characterize that as lying by omission. Also there are issues where the outcome is actually unknown. TEPCO seems to always put forth the more optimistic outcomes. It is important to understand the possible bad outcomes, since the consequences of those outcomes are catastrophic.
Wow your level of BS is amazing
Just like BP and the US Gov did in the GOM? Total transparency!
I know of NO such land where corporate monsters and the governments they're in bed with will... "cut the bullshit and make all information available in real time, fully and completely..." Can you name one?
It's not exactly every day, week, year or decade that a major nuclear reactor site goes into shit its pants mode.
Given the whole 'balancing of the risks' equation, when it comes to nuclear/atomic catastrophes, release of real time information is probably the moral and ethical course.
I agree with you that governments show an extreme proclivity towards suppressing hazards, but given Japan's small land mass, densely populating islands, and limited resources, including fresh water, I would hope they'd do the right thing sooner.
I'm not going to disagree with you there, mate.
I am amazed that once an incident hits a Level 5 that it does not become an International Incident, of some sort, where every country becomes a stakeholder in how it plays out. The IAEA, GE, France's Areva SA, should have had people on the ground within 24 hours. Countries like the US, Canada, Russia, Germany, China etc should have the right to send teams to monitor and assist.
TEPCO sends workers in to a Level 6 incident in their fakking street shoes with plastic bags taped around their ankles? Absolutely disgraceful and unforgivable!
I am amazed at the level of incompetence displayed by TEPCO, on a daily basis, as you are.
The fact that they sent workers in with a total lack of protective measures, and couldn't even see fit to ensure that radioactive water wouldn't easily make contact with their feet/ankles/lower legs is incredible, especially when water proof boots would have prevented this.
TD, there is more to this. From the New York Times:
"All the reported readings are within the safe range of plutonium levels in sediment and soil given by the United States Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. But Tokyo Electric said the highest reading was more than three times the level found in Japan compared with the average over the last 20 years. American nuclear experts expressed confusion on Monday about the company’s latest report that one form of plutonium was found at elevated levels at the Fukushima plant while other forms were not, and suggested it could be a measurement error."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/world/asia/29japan.html
This directly contradicts the IAEA statement that the plutonium contamination "does not exceed background levels tracked by Japan's Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology over the past 30 years."
so it's possible we had a 500 comment thread replete with lots of swearing and junking and a bunch of hysteria over lethal doses of plutonium and our experts are suggesting a MEASURING ERROR?
So claven-mosely shot his credibility all to hell over what could be an ERROR??? The height of irony.
Maybe TEPCO just needs more practice.
And you shot your credibility with your 500 mg is half a kilogram comment
a unit conversion error? With as many fucking posts as I'm expected to read and reply to or else the people in here get bitchy "where is trav"??
I read it as 500g; it won't be the last time. I'm sure I said uSv when I meant mSv at least once as well. So go fuck yourself.
LOL that is the funny thing about assholes like you - right or wrong you are still an asshole. It was YOUR conversion mistake you douchebag and you used it to argue YOUR point so you were wrong on both counts fuckface.
this is the best you have? That's it?
I like pointing out the obvious.
Anyway I am not the self proclaimed "genius" here that belittles everyone else but doesn't know something basic like a unit of measurement.
Trav is only belittling people who refuse to understand fact or research the matter. Trav is cutting the FUDers to pieces. And honestly, to me, it's quite comical. Its particularly comical for those of us who have educated ourselves on the subject.
In some ways, I feel sorry for Tav having such arguments, yet I realize that he must be spending much of his time laughing at the insanity emanating from the FUDers.
Your posts are shit.
Straight stinkers.
You called someone a moron for doing the exact same thing not too long ago.
You are a hypocrite. And unwanted. What is that like? Do your kids talk about you behind your back? I wonder if your wife has left your racists ass? Or maybe you killed her in a fit of rage? Who knows with you, Trav the sociopath.
Trav unlike many users here I appreciate what you are bringing to the discussion. I'm actually taking you on faith regarding what NHK is saying, as I'm not watching them. Also I'm not quite ready to pronounce the death of millions.
However you are committing a logical fallacy a displaying a much too large ego by making statements whining about the amount of posts you are 'expected' to read and reply to. Unless it is your JOB to post here, I don't think you are required to. Outside of your inflated sense of self and your opinion.
but if I'm absent for even a few hours, suddenly the rumor mill starts to spin. A large ego isn't a logical fallacy.
I am not one to back down when called out especially when it's a low commitment of effort by me such as typing.
I wonder if the range of measuring error is large enough to hide potentially toxic doses of PU.
Trav et al experts reading this. I ask in all seriousness, what is the lesser of two evils here? I believe this nicely outlines the fork in the road they are at.
Not really seeing the exit plan here.
Is the game at this point to cool the rods enough, remove the irradiated water in some containment apparatus much like they've been using and then find some way to patch the containment vessel? Is that even possible, or would the radiation be at such strength that containment will never happen?
They have no choice but to continue to cool and hope to sequester the wastewater.
They clearly have some kind of piping loss or leak downpipe which is flowing into the turbine buildings. If they can close that loop, they can pretty clearly cool reactors.
The Zr95 in the turbine buildings is evidence that water is at least flowing in some way from the cores through the turbine loop, as well as evidence of at least partial core meltdown.
I have no evidence other than what I stated a week or more ago regarding primary containment breach (the fact that vessels were at or near 1ATM).
Allowing the rods to melt and find their own way to cooling is not a good idea, methinks.
the latest videos show a lot of steam emanating from various things; this is a good and bad sign. For the love of god why didn't they artificially vent these buildings early on?? Had they not stood idly while those H2 explosions happened, this picture would be COMPLETELY different right now.
Lets assume they successfully cool and sequester the wastewater. Then what? giant rubber patch kit? This is the part that seems unsolvable without sacrificing many to achieve some sort of water/air tight cooling chamber.
Also, when the Tokyo water was at levels that actually caused warnings to be issued, was the contamination source ever identified, meaning was it through ground water seepage in Fukushima or was it open air contamination of an exposed fresh water source?
Air deposition of iodine after the rain following a wind blowing down from the NE. Groundwater migration from the plant to metro Tokyo is (I'll be bold and call this one) impossible as the plant is a) over 100 km from Tokyo's water supply and b) right on the ocean which is where the groundwater would tend to migrate.
Air deposition of long-lived isotopes--cesium, strontium, and yes Pu if it could get vaporized in a fire--is the only way Tokyo gets directly contaminated here. Unless the locals truck the water over in a fit of rage, of course :*)
There are plenty of cities that have open air reservoirs many miles away, but yes I would tend to agree that groundwater would flow to the sea from the buildings, not towards some water table source.
Has anyone found the Tokyo water system maps? Are there reservoirs to the north in Fukushima or are they all West towards the mountains I would imagine.
I can't get the official Tokyo Waterworks website to 'behave' but there's a good map in this UN case study on page 4 of the .pdf file (page 484 in the doc itself).
http://www.unesco.org/water/wwap/case_studies/tokyo/tokyo_basin.pdf
You could call it the northern fringe of the Kanto Plain. The rugged upland between the Kanto Plain and Fukushima is the 'buffer zone'.
Very fragile situation.
Bingo! I was wondering when someone would press this point. This is what is strongly suggested by reading between the lines in the disinfo to date. The next step logically is to attain closed loop and at as things stand today, closed loop JB welded onto a Toyota radiator is an improvement over what they have today. The question now is how to break the operation down into manageable steps within radiation exposure constraints. Similar to Chernobyl, it is necessary to break the process into steps which can be accomplished without immediately killing the workers involved. The Russians had the advantage of a totalitarian state where they could simply direct people with few alternatives to scoop up toxic waste. I doubt the Japanese are on board with this. Before everyone goes all greanpeach on me, let me remind you that "Battle for Chernobyl" filmed quite a few survivors 20 years later, most of them smoking cigarettes. There was plenty of disinfo before the earthquake even hit.
This is what they should be wrestling with at this point. Who cares to bet they are a week or four behind the curve?
/sarc on Maybe the gubmint should redirect the suicide hotline to the TEPCO recruiting switchboard. /sarc off
The bottom line is that this is not the end of the world (or even Japan) yet, but people will die getting this contained. Japan's fate rests on how quickly this is accomplished.
There is a very stylistic map of the Tokyo water supply in a pdf which you can get at
http://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/eng/supply/index.html
I've been meaning to get a good actual map of Japan to trace out where these are, but been too lazy to date.
That said, the radioactive contamination of groundwater is nearing Kiev's system. Slowly but surely.
Totally different soil pattern than Japan.
"Trucking the water over" reminds me of the guy in the Impala with sunglasses in "Repo Man".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLGrXGEMOSo
Plate o' fucking goddamn irradiated shrimp and all I wanted was a Pepsi Glo.
Malibu, not Impala. of course ;-P
My understanding is that the spike in radioactive iodine in the Tokyo water supply last week was caused by atomospheric release of iodine (presumably from the spent fuel pools) falling in the Tokyo water catchment area (via rainfall I guess).
I don't think there's anyway that ground water seepage from the Fukushima plant could get into the Tokyo water supply that quickly. I read somewhere recently that even all these years after Chernobyl, the polluted water table has still not reached Kiev.
For anyone interested, this seems to be a good snapshot of where Tokyo gets it water. As suggested, none appears to be coming from up north directly out of Fukushima, but it's not like I've traced them all out.
http://www.waterworks.metro.tokyo.jp/eng/supply/02.pdf
Springs in Tokyo - http://www.env.go.jp/en/wpaper/1994/eae230306020001.gif
open air. there is no way something could seep 100km like that.
It was I131 that fell out of the sky basically.
As for the wastewater, they are going to dump it in the ocean until they can recover some kind of closed loop.
There's simply no other option; I imagine though that they should be able to erect rudimentary filtering on the wastewater and recover any non-dissolved particulates. I'm not off the top of my head that reminiscent of the solubility of zirconium and Pu in water but I think it's pretty freakin low.
Trav - since you're still on and obviously have passion on this, I'm still curious to hear what say you about assuming a best case scenario where the contaminated water is sequestered successfully. Then what? Does that hazardous occupation ever end? or do we basically turn the basement floor of the building into a extended containment unit indefinitely while these things decay for a "while"?
Can people actually repair the containment vessle assumming successful contaminated water extraction?
given the rad counts that we've heard, I think entombment is gonna happen, period. I don't see the rad levels as transient...maybe they are. But without specifics from the dosimeters on what is alpha beta gamma, we can't know which isotopes we're dealing with. If it's all just a bunch of I131, hell, hose it down and bring in the cranes, life goes on.
If it's nastier shit (which appears to be the case downpipe), then we've got something not fixable.
I'm not convinced that the primary containment is ruptured...as for the buildings themselves; they're FUBARd. I mean look at 'em. Nothin says FUBAR like piles of debris and rubble all over nuclear shit.
The fact that core elements are washing downpipe means that this is a long-term hazardous project. Soon as cores cool enough to get access to (which could be year[s] I guess), then they can formally extract stuff. But if it's melted slag, which it appears some is, those reactors will be there long after man is gone.
They will cool then entomb and then cleanup what they can. That is best-case at this point; the fate was sealed when the buildings blew up.
Trav,it seem's those two explsion's were not h2,one was steam,one was nuclear
upon what evidence do you base this claim that there was a nuclear explosion.
I can say that if that were true, the Pu levels around FUD1 would be unmistakably hotter than this.
Bitch...
Look at the explosion.
Stop blowing your shit around the room.
Don't make people with common sense doubt themselves.
(I've already give you the evidence)
bob, this may come as a shock but your "common sense" doesn't pass for evidence.
Most common sense is bullshit...the MSM spouts common sense daily. And then several levels of credibility below even that is YOUR common sense which may as well be a bucket of shit.
Just say "I don't have any evidence," and leave it at that. Don't make me embarrass you.
Worse than he is. Junked.
Nuclear explosion?
Bullshit.
deleted
Where will this water go? When they mass sprayed they created a mini-lake. I can envision the mess. They have admitted there is no where to dump the contaminated water they pump back out. How much of this water can they actually get to? (Prabably very little). Rubber lined tunnels 50-80 feet deep are full of overflow during the crazy blast the reactors with seawater excersize. I have a hard time believing that the injected fresh water isn't overflowing and/or leaking out somewhere (albiet to a much lesser extent). The exposed area will just grow and grow.
They need a plan and they need to attack the problem....this is just slow death.
The spraying of water has already leaked into the ocean. It has to. But, the ocean has its way of dealing with these things, and it will, over time.
huh?
Really?
Yeah, really.
Obviously there was never any pacific nuclear testing. Which is why there is no evidence the oceans of the world have any capacity to deal with radionucleide contamination.
People pay $5,000+ a peice plus airfare to dive the shipwreks in Bikini to see nothing, because nothing ever happened there.
/sarc
"They clearly have some kind of piping loss or leak downpipe which is flowing into the turbine buildings. If they can close that loop, they can pretty clearly cool reactors."
Got a timeframe for this? Do you think they'll have to use bio-robots to close the loop? Do you think the rods are in the kind of configuration where re-starting the cooling system will work?
"Allowing the rods to melt and find their own way to cooling is not a good idea, methinks."
Suppose this is what ends up happening. What are the consequences of this?
"the latest videos show a lot of steam emanating from various things; this is a good and bad sign."
What's so bad about it?
"Had they not stood idly while those H2 explosions happened, this picture would be COMPLETELY different right now."
So you question TEPCO's competence? This kind of venting would be nuclear plant operation 101, no?
How about re-pumping the irridated water back up to cool whatever is left of the reactor and cooling pool's,and adding make-up water as needed,but you still have the salt issue,which even if you put distilled water into the mix,you still end up with a less then perfect answer,not to mention the spooge released via steam,and leakage
Dousing the fuel rods with water creates pressure in the vessel, which if you have a leak, puts more radiation in the air or in the water. But, if you do not keep water on them, you risk a much larger- possibly violent - release. They have to keep water going to them. And, I am still not completely sold that any of the vessels are ruptured....although it is clear that at least some piping going to one of them is compromised. I pointed out a few days ago the possibility that the cable/steam pipe tunnels from the reactor building to the turbine buildings may be full of either (or both) run-off from the spraying, and possibly leaks from something in the reactor buildings. If it was me...working from very imperfect data, and having the luxury of armchair theorizing, I would bring in tanker trucks and pump the radioactive water in them, wrap them with polyethylene tarps, drive bungs in the valves, and get them away from the coast to a remote area. It is either this, or bring static tanks on-site - which could be compromised in another tsunami; if not these, then your only alternative is dump the stuff in the ocean. I would pump the tunnels and then stop to calculate the fluid rise based on the amount being sprayed, if it is less, then I temporarily stop worrying about a system water leak on that unit and go back to pumping the tunnels into tanker trucks. If I could get that tunnel clear, I would pump it full of borated water then clear it, then try to get people in there to find any leaks in the piping. If I cannot clear the tunnels, I pump them full of concrete and solve the problem of tunnel-bound water coming into the turbine buildings. Any pipes I do not need to move water that are coming through those tunnels, I put a jack-squeezer on them and isolate them. Per the reactor vessels, I would try pumping some kind of tracer element like Americium or tritium into them to try to see if the vessels are compromised. You would have to get some kind of instrumentation in place for this to work, but where the tracer elements showed up first should give you an idea of the general where the leak is. I know of no way to patch a core vessel. If your core vessel is compromised in its main structure, then you start trying to find out if the drywell is still intact. If it is, you probably have to assume the best at that point, try to get temperature control of the vessel, and start figuring out how you are going to encapsulate that one, I might even consider trying to pump the Torus full of concrete if I have the means and access. The only way to get guys deep into some of those units is to cool the cores, maybe pump the building shells full of borated water vapor, and ask for volunteers. This is kind of a worst-case operational plan. If the vessels are not compromised, they still have a chance of getting these things under control. Of course, if they do get them under control, then they have to deal with them....the rods will still require cooling for a long time, which is one of the reasons they are not keen on encapsulating them at this point. Encapsulation means trying to contain possibly four reactor units in close proximity that will ultimately go wild under your shield. Chernobyl blew most of its active guts into the Russian sky....these are still there in-place. BTW...this is just mental masturbation, I am not there, so am NOT second guessing anyone who is.
Thanks, Ari. Let's hope someone is listening.
Well, there are people on the ground there a hell of a lot smarter and more experienced than me, which is worrisome in that maybe they know really bad things I do not.
Honestly, I just enjoyed the read. I know this is dire, but the ideas are interesting too.
Amen. Thank you for trying.
Just wish there would be a crash effort at a full diagnostic of what exactly is going on. The last helicopter video showed a huge beam or something lying right on top of the vigorously fuming Unit 4 SFP...looked pretty hard to get water into, or anything out of...just one example of the kinds of 'details' that keep showing up around the facility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKFGavZ_rf4
3:11 and 3:50 show what appears to be the unit 4 pool...
We'll know when a plan has been put in place by the startof removing all the debris -- until then, leaving a scab over gangrene is doomed to fail!
Stycho - they've already put a plan in place. And executed it. And done very well at it. They've kept the things from catching on fire. I'm guessing that everything they do is with that aim in mind. So far, good plan. Good execution. Not pretty. But real.
What plan? ... no pumps, three explosions.
Thanks for the link.Horrible damage...how they are going to clean that up will prove interesting.God help them.
Ari, I always search out your posts, but how about throwing a few paragraph breaks in.
:)
ok, so according to them, there is Pu from FUD1 but it is at levels associated with trace amounts...that's certainly better news and if true doesn't remotely justify the hysteria on the last thread regarding this element at FUD1.
That wouldn't be a significant cleanup problem if that's the scope and extent of it. Down further, they reiterate that #2 suffered meltdown, which I thought everybody knew by now. It's clear that core materials went downpipe into the turbine buildings.
There is very likely core meltage at all 4 reactors. The Pu could have been carried aloft by venting of reactors (it would be in trace amounts in the steam), from steam from melting SFRs or from fire in SFRs.
If you're not going to contribute to FUD, don't say anything at all. Nobody wants to hear it.
/sarc
Worst case scenario everyone in Japan dies, The entire island becomes poisoned and completely uninhabitible and several people in parts of the world get cancers from the fall out. Not that bad.
Bloomberg is reporting a partial meltdown and water OUTSIDE the reactor at 1 seivert/hr (4-8 hours=death). Also, rubber lined trenches 50-80 feet deep are almost full of the seawater sprayed in to cool the reactors down....but 'they aren't connected to the sea'...(meaning they will leach through to the groundwater/sea---unless they can be pumped out---but they have nowhere to dispose of contamined water---and how are they going to deliver the pump hoses if they can't get into the reactors).
In other words---clusterfuck to continue indefinitely.
The way this is handled would baffle a toddler and probably result in some serious mental manifestations in adulthood.
"This is not the plutonium you're looking for."
"You can go about your business."
"Move along."
The old Jedi mind trick. Gets 'em every time.
In Soviet Russia nuclear reactor blows you! Some blow me info here: http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/index.php
Well if this wasn't just a breath of fresh air
"After taking soil samples at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, Japanese authorities today confirmed finding traces of plutonium that most likely resulted from the nuclear accident there."
Thanks TEPCO. Your honesty is refreshing after dealing with politicians here in the U.S...............
and our ministry says the levels are within SAFE. The japs say they are higher than 20-year averages, and our nuclear experts suggest measuring error.
Do you feel stupid yet for panicking or are you just taking a breather?
Not. at. all.
Were you ever able to answer any of my questions?
no
Get off my jock, cock breath.
btw, were you ever able to isolate the instance when I inquired to you about plutonium dosages?
prob. not because you make shit up.
Please stop that. Just drop it. Enough is enough.
You and me both. I did what you are doing on another thread a few days back. They won't listen, they can't see that their egos are hanging out there for everyone to see (not that mine isn't). But I just wanted to say I feel the same frustration. It is part of why Wall Street can rape us all repeatedly. Both have concern, both are making good faith efforts based on the info they feel they have. Wish they could respect that.
one of us is right, the other is wrong. That is the problem.
I don't question bob's good faith, I question his sanity.
I'm the only one with an ego here, just ask around
Dude - what a sociopath you are to still be here, posting. Cred = Zero. Be gone.
Why don't you define "panicking" for us?
All I have seen is people typing away, discussing the situation, and you continually interjecting your hostile little self where it isn't wanted. If people here were really "panicking", they wouldn't be here.
Face it, you aren't saving anyone from anything. You just fucked up when you thought they could control this with some 20-mule team, and you are just covering for yourself with all this hostility. If you just admitted that A. the Japanese aren't telling us everything, B. some of the things they are telling us are likely untrue, or at least "wishful thinking", and C. that you were wrong in your initial assessment of how easy it would be to stop this situation from escalating, I think things would look a lot better for you around here.
Neither A nor B are inconsistent with anything I've ever said.
C is complete bullshit as i never claimed this would be easy.
Just fuck off and go away. Find yourself a nice PM thread to hold court on. You're of no use on this topic as you are an imbecile.
Uh yeah, you did. You literally said they could "just drill a hole and pour Borax in".
I would be of a lot more "use" if I didn't have to spend all my time in a red haze fighting with you. Quit with the bitching, and I will to. How's that?
control your own anger.
And don't act as if this phenomenon is confined to this topic.
You are routinely derisive to people even as they struggle to restrain themselves.
Your errors are not my fault and perhaps you should look in the mirror. You don't see ME complaining about anyone's bedside manner. I don't complain about getting junked. I might point it out in retort to someone like CD when he accuses me of being a "psyop."
Well they were going to release this instead but didn't think the sheeple would buy it:
""After taking soil samples at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, Japanese authorities today confirmed finding traces of plutonium that most likely resulted from natural sources."
Well we all know that atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons is natural...boys will be boys...
not to mention the famous Fukushima Plutonium Bird
...after all if the Pu shits, eat it.
Actually, Jim, it is common to find plutonium remnants in soil all over the world left over from the atmospheric testing, but it is readily typed and easily distinguished from newly placed plutonium. I think they mentioned this just to try to take some sting off their findings, although in some small way, there is a grain of truth in it.
We all have our share of Pu, it's true.
We're just riffing on the word 'natural' in the made-up draft press release. Seeing as it doesn't exist in the natural universe...as commonly understood (ex human activity).
You are right, nothing about Plutonium is natural in the sense that is is created naturally by the normal flow of things...it is our midnight beast. Glenn Seaborg, a very nice man, created it. But, it is an integral part of our being, many of us have it inside of us, playing games at the cellular level....twisting our DNA in unfathomable ways...but, so do we have other little beasts that play with us from many industries and inventions that make modern man what he is. We are, ultimately, what we play with. We ultimately, reap what we sew.
even nuclear fission took place in nature and Pu actually occurs in nature as well, albeit in very small quantities.
<pedantic>
Reap what you sow.
Rip what you sew.
</pedantic>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor
Seriously. Just read it. If you know that Pu is produced by absorption of thermal neutrons by natural uranium resulting from the fission process and that occurred some 2 billion years ago in Oklo, long before people existed on this little planet, how can you say with any grain of credibility that it does not exist naturally?
Interesting speculation.
Fact, not speculation.
http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Magazines/Bulletin/Bull173/17304780204.pdf
this is precisely what I meant when I said nuclear fission had occurred in nature. I was hoping someone would jump on me and call me an idiot.
But if I listed a link to it, surely I'd have been called "Mr. google" again.
Its fair to say you've made some admirers in this debate. Its a shame the few industry insiders seem to have given up here due to their admirers. Their knowledge would be priceless for the ongoing issues.
For those concerned about radiation in the U.S., here is an article to read and consider
http://www.idealist.ws/index.php
Although it appears to be written by academics from UC Berkeley, no need for you to read it Trav7777 because I'm sure you will disagree :)
For radiation beginners, here is a helpful video on forms, effects, and half-life without commentary on the situation (the video from 3/25)
http://www.fairewinds.com/content/what-we-do
If you are afraid Fukushima is going to blow, here is an article for you by M. Whitney
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney03282011.html
Tired of listening to the experts, Counter Punch remedies with "Deconstructing Nuclear Experts"
http://www.counterpunch.org/
I began reading the first one but abandoned after they started calling these things "hydrogen bomb poisons." That's a clear sign of sensationalization by thought-linking it to a negative. This is an NLP tactic in the style of Frank Luntz ("death tax" instead of "estate tax").
The biggest fallout dangers are *not* Pu and Sr90, they are actually I131 and Cs137 and then Sr90.
If you had finished reading you would have found they agreed on the point about the CS137 and Sr90.
Those links were great!Thank you from the mountains of North Carolina!!!!!
PS.SOCAL native circa 1961.
The U.S. owned by China, check out the YouTube video ad posted by Citizens Against Government Waste (www.CAGW.org)
http://youtu.be/OTSQozWP-rM
Ha, it's on Fox News, too. Saw it last night.
damn meltdown still going...Japan is going to sink it's country and economy, you can't paper over a disaster...Rome couldn't do it!
.. disaster indeed. there are several other power plants involved. forget Tokyo, northern Japan is gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyCzOxjWDTE&feature=relmfu
I feel strongly we do not have good numbers on the death toll yet.
They rise everyday.Can you imagine the horror of visiting the beach and seeing hundreds of bodies washing up?God help them.
Who gives a fuck about Tepco. Japan needs power and whether they take it over, bail out Tepco or sell the firm to an outside investor.........the Tepco infastrcture will contiunue to operate; probably with most of the same personel.
Of course, all management should be sued and their assets confiscated....but hell, Japan is almost like the USA....and the big dogs will keep most of their wealth.
... Japan needs power ...
Especially in the north of the country. It is interesting that the country is split between 50 and 60 hertz, so there are some serious technical challenges getting excess power from the south up to the north (or west/east).
sschu
I found this helpful to calm me down a tad.
http://xkcd.com/radiation/
Tonights musical selection is from Hans Zimmer's work in the movie Inception. I realize it's not NIN MsCreant, but I suspect you may oblige.
Title: Dream is Collapsing. A computer stereo setup does not do it justice. It's meant for a gigantic wall of sound system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imamcajBEJs
It is pretty good for a movie sound track and I get it about the stereo set up. Too controlled for my taste considering the theme. I like that scritchy controlled chaos edge. This is old news I know, but a counter offering:
Go ahead, be a Tool...Learn to Swim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_3QLMDQ8PQ
"from my cold dead glowing hands"
Heston,from the crypt.
More WTF-ier than ever: Did the Prime Minister's visit to the plant 'freeze' TEPCO's bureaucracy and help cause the hydrogen explosions? Truly a dark dance now being traced:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/29_13.html
Kan denies his visit delayed nuke plant response
Prime Minister Naoto Kan has rejected views that his visit to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant a day after the earthquake delayed the crucial initial response to the developing disaster.
Kan was speaking before an Upper House committee on Tuesday. An opposition lawmaker argued that Kan's visit to the plant on the morning of March 12th caused Tokyo Electric Power, or TEPCO, to put off venting air from the No.1 reactor to ease pressure inside.
Kan replied that following reports of a breakdown in reactor cooling systems, his government invoked a law on nuclear disasters for the first time, declaring an emergency and launching a central task force.
He said he thought it was vital for him to visit the disaster site in such circumstances, and that listening to people leading the efforts on the ground helped him make various decisions later on.
Kan said his government told TEPCO in the early hours of March 12th that it should go ahead and vent steam from the No.1 reactor. He said it wasn't true that his visit caused a delay in the procedure.
The No.1 reactor suffered a steam explosion in the afternoon of March 12th, in the first visible trouble at the Fukushima Daiichi plant.
Kan also said that launching a joint task force with TEPCO on March 15th greatly helped the government to communicate better with the utility.
The prime minister said the situation at the nuclear plant remains far from certain, and that his government will continue tackling the disaster with the utmost vigilance.
Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:51 +0900 (JST)
Took approximately two weeks for Fukushima to become politically critical.
He is now a wounded politician, and others smell blood in the water.
Wholeheartedly agreed. And, now this clusterfuck will take on a whole new dimension clusterfuckedness. also this:
"The prime minister said the situation at the nuclear plant remains far from certain, and that his government will continue tackling the disaster with the utmost vigilance."
Vigilance. My god. An old guy I worked with many years ago once said to me: "Fight, drink, or hold the light, son, but don't just stand there".
The situation clearly calls for a higher level of activity than vigilance, imo.
First I heard of this visit.
Quite plausible, frozen into inaction by a change of command and imminent visit by the Big Cheese.
Damn, he even admits in his response that it was a consensus-building exercise.
I hear a little plutonium is great fertilizer for fruits and vegetables.
Man's body found 5 kilometers from the Nuclear Plant, too much radiation on body to take it [to a morgue]
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/03/body-found-5-kilometers-from-fukushim...
Not to worry. Pluto has been downgraded from a planet to a - whatever - so I assume plutonium isn't as deadly as it used to be. Anyway, TEPCO is checking on that.
None of this matters. Barry Bonds has shrunken testicles.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/iteam/2011/03/28/2011-03-28_kimberly_b...
Got pix?
Nice to see a thread here on this topic not choked full of the usual 'why not bury it already' or 'Just nuke the site' comments and such.
I come at this from a metallurgical/materials science background, and wanted to throw out a couple of thoughts, observations and questions.
First, the lack of specificity in reportage renders much of the information useless. Units used for data are inconsistent, even from a single source. Pressures and temperatures are critical indicators of whatever processes are occurring- and where.
This is a witches' brew now inside those vessels and pools, here's why that matters:
Materials are carefully selected to preform in a carefully engineered and controlled environment. That's gone out the window here, and metals that may have a given strength and melting point in normal operation are now able to combine in ways that weaken the system. Salt deposits from seawater cooling can act as a flux to enable other reactions, insulate or block water flow....
For example, steel melts around 1500 C, and Copper melts at 1050 C. You can hold molten copper in steel, though it will erode, or dissolve the steel slowly if in direct contact. However, add carbon to the mix- just in physical contact- and the melting point of the steel will drop to below a thousand.
Other types of elements in contact with, or vaporized onto the steel can embrittle it, and so on. So the thing that has never made sense to me here is how they talk about refilling the reactor vessel- under pressure- but never any mention about heat converters. All the thermal energy being generated has to be scrubbed off somewhere in a closed loop system, yet no mention of inspections of piping systems. Otherwise, it makes it sound like they have been doing once-through cooling already. And that means dumping the discharge into the sea.
Damn, I must type slower that I thought.
Beats typing faster than you think.
So true. Wish the alternate weren't so popular, though...
Do you know anything regarding the status of condensers or heat exchangers? I've been trying to determine where the heat is exiting these systems, and how. I've looked some, but not come across much.
If cooling is limited to spraying the steel vessels, it's pretty tough to get down to the drywell/ torus. Or through the cement containment vessel.
Not to mention, surface evaporation won't scrub all that much heat...
What I get is that they have no choice but to allow the meltdown to continue. Its already done in #3, with the complete destruction of the plant. So we have 3 more to go. The plutonium comes from the destruction of the #3 reactor, as its totally blown apart.
What has prevented a critical mass nightmare is yet to be discovered, but I think its the physical design of the reactors themselves, with the control rods assembly set below the reactor core where most of the molten fuel is likely to collect once a core breach occurs. This does not necessarily mean containment breach, though the water coming out of containment is probably due to the earthquake. (blown hatches, seals)
Much of the contaminated water comes out of the cores, mixed with everything they threw at the reactors in the first few days.
An additional problem is the spent fuel rods, which is less of a hazard.(relatively speaking)
(in french with english scribd article)
http://sciencepourvousetmoi.blogs.nouvelobs.com/archive/2011/03/27/fukus...
(japanese)
http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0328/TKY201103280199.html?ref=rss
http://twitpic.com/4asvh1 <= somebody know what they were doing when they posted this, since its the obvious achilles' heel.
They were going to use the condenser tanks for the radioactive water in the turbine building basement, but found them 'unexpectedly' full. So I think they were considering pumping the tanks empty (since that water shouldn't be 'hot') and then having someplace to put the basement pools.
Doesn't sound like they will be using them as heat exchangers per se, but one more place to put water is good under the circumstances.
Otherwise, it makes it sound like they have been doing once-through cooling already. And that means dumping the discharge into the sea.
Maybe that's why thermal imaging of the site is a little hard to come by.
Given that fuel pools have been boiled dry, burned and exploded, it would seem likely that these releases are from the spent rods and not the containment vessels, no?
My latest understanding is that it is believed that reactor number 2 has had a breach in its containment vessel.
Some have postulated that there might be a breach in number 3, also, which would explain the plutonium found in 5 places in the soil, but I'm not sure if this has been verified.
I was listening to a nuclear engineer talk to CNN International, and he stated that it's very possible that 2 and 3 have a breach, due to at least partial meltdowns of their core assembly (he explained this as a candle burning downward), and that this is the source of the highly radioactive pools of water pooling in the base of those reactors.
I think the one thing everyone agrees on is that it is spiraling out of control, and TEPCO does not seem like they're capable of preventing a total meltdown, at this point.
Given that Pu is a byproduct of fission, I got the feeling that when # 3 blew, it scattered the remains of at least some fuel rods from the SFP.
Not that I doubt the possibility of containment breach, except that I expect that event to be accompanied by at least a steam explosion. But with all the temperature and pressure excursions these reactors have seen, fatigue cracking seems as much a risk as melt through, and would be much less likely to make another boom.
Yes, as Number 3 is the reactor that used and stored the mox fuel, that was also discussed as possibility - that the spent fuel from it was sent scattershot over the area.
AGAIN, the evidence of fuel being blown all over would be incontrovertible.
There'd be no films of workers; they'd have dropped dead on film. Please review the Chernobyl Battle video, you can watch liquidators go onto #4 roof and scoop up core components with shovels.
They were alotted 45s at a time, initial estimates of 70 Sv/hr, meaning about 1Sv absorbed dose per trip. Subsequently, 70 was seen as too low, it was more like 100-120. Some of these guys broke into spontaneous nosebleeds upon coming back down, others literally collapsed. Had someone stayed up for as long as workers are seen on the video standing next to the plant building (assuming core and SFRs were all over the place), they would have dropped dead on film.
Not to mention the film itself should be VERY grainy. We would literally be able to see the radiation as was evident in the onsite Chernobyl films during the beginning of the accident and while the liquidators were working on the roof.
screenshot of plutonium locations from TEPCO's press conference that just ended. White board and paper prints for handouts.
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/03/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-plutonium-foun...
I'm feeling cheery tonight, my lungs feel good, my eyes are white... and my stomach is full. All I need now is a nap, maybe two, then a little more work and research on manure growth, and everything will be alright.
The fuss over a bit of plutonium is silly. These reactors are scrap and are damaged enough that leaks, whether from broken piping or actual cracks in the containment, are a certainty. Ocean disposal is now the only near term fix, even that will be very dangerous and supremely messy.
The immediate problem is the plant is puffing 10% of Chernobyls total radioactivity emission into the air every day, unsurprising as we had four times the Chernobyl fuel load in the now busted spent fuel pools in addition to the reactor loads. The stuff has thus far thankfully blown out over the Pacific. See http://www.zamg.ac.at/ for the details, in German but the maps are clear. Once the winds shift, things may become much messier.
TEPCO is talking months or years to fix this. Given the normal wind shifts as summer nears, that seems a very casual approach. Japan may have a large exclusion zone on Honshu just like around Chernobyl by then.
Plus with 4300 tons of fuel on site all told, things could get really poor if the site gets too contaminated for people to work there, as the cooling won't work forever unattended.
The situation really needs massive intervention before this disaster becomes a catastrophe.
There's nothing anyone can do to help, have you ever questioned why no one has offered help? It's because it's end game on this one. They're on their own, which is terribly unfortunate, but that's how they roll.
France to send nuclear experts to assist Japan:
Besson [French energy minister], meanwhile, said it is difficult to accurately grasp the situation at the troubled nuclear power complex, suggesting France is not satisfied with Japan's explanations. He said the experienced French experts could help in understanding the situation..." better.http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81681.html
"Difficult to accurately grasp the situation" is the UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR
Meanwhile..."I got a new low--all 52 cards in a row" : GofM spill, financial crisis, fiscal crisis, food crisis, fresh water crisis, ME crisis....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5GYOsKLp6o&feature=fvwrel
I am not in toto disagreeing with you, but can you elaborate on what that intervention might be?
Must be divine.
Don't be nasty to him. He is providing valuable insight, while not going apeshit on anyone and everyone. This is a nice area of the thread.
A little plutonium? They went for MOX fuel, which is the worst case scenario in an accident that exposes fuel to the environment. The current unofficial estimate is for around 1290 tons of plutonium out of the 3450 tons of fuel.
Really? Wow they must have found the most efficient breeder reactor on earth, ever! That's almost 1/2 the fuel bred into Pu!
In other words, your statement is absolute bullshit. Can you backup your claim with a citation?
The current unofficial estimate...
Sounds reliable to me. Keep up the good work, Ace!
Let's try to be a little factual... the radiation from Fukushima is no where near even 10% of Chernobyl. It's a fraction of 1%. Not saying Fukushima isn't serious. It is. But comparisons like yours grossly understates Chernobyl. (Chernobyl was essentially a nuclear weapon production reactor with a steam generator attached.)
Logic and calculated thought is not allowed in these threads. Prepare to be junked to oblivion for that statement.