On The Imminent US Debt To GDP Parity

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Sun, 06/06/2010 - 17:09 | 398264 DoChenRollingBearing
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It has always been my contention that government spending has been the single biggest problem here.

Yes, the FED, the Wall St. frauds, the bankers with FANNIE & FREDDIE are all to blame as well.

But, the Big Enchilada has been the overspending by those whom WE sent to Washington.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 17:12 | 398268 docj
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We get the government we deserve (and vote for) - and now we're getting it good and hard.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 18:21 | 398373 Currently Smoki...
Currently Smoking Cannabis's picture

Nonsense.  We get to vote for the gangster in the red bandana or the gangster in the blue bandana.  That doesn't mean the people deserved to be ruled by gangsters.  But not voting is frowned upon.  So I suppose it's endorse a gangster or you have no right to bitch about the system, right?


What would a better, more deserving people do?  Violent revolt?  Or would they run for a local office, then work their way to the top, then change the system from within?  Haha...dream on.  Or just stay asleep.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 18:36 | 398389 akak
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While the Republicans and Democrats alternately switch roles every few years as "Good Cop/Bad Cop", we all know that in the end, in such a ploy BOTH are always "bad cops".  Endorsing the lesser of two evils is still condoning evil!  No matter which wing of the single Demopublican Pro-Establishment Party is in power, our freedoms and wealth continue to be ratcheted downward, and I am sick of it.

Most Americans refuse to accept or acknowledge the fact that our political system is one of the most closed and least free in the world today.  Any meaningful challengers to the status-quo, even within the two corrupt establishment parties (such as Republican Ron Paul in 2007/2008), are effectively shut out from making any significant challenges to the system.  And third parties?  We may as well be asking for a free vote in Stalinist Russia.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 19:46 | 398489 docj
docj's picture

Absolutely, akak.  They both suck.  I mean, I'm a registered Republican (I guess that makes me part of the problem, right?) and nominally support the "red bandanna" morons because I think they suck nominally 5% less than the other guys - but we're still talking about a metric crapton of suck, savvy?

Such as been the case since (at least) the late-20's.  We are a society based entirely on the antithesis of the notion that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.  So we keep voting for the criminals who will "do something" - which usually means screwing someone else so you can get something for nothing.

So, in that climate you get the sort of government we have now.  It's precisely what we deserve, frankly.  Why anyone expects we should get anything different is a total mystery to me an just reeks of the sort of pre-adolescent "can't we all just get along" mentality that is all so common in well, my pre-adolescents for example.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 21:19 | 398657 DoChenRollingBearing
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10-4 guys.  A sorry state that we as a people have gotten ourselves into.


A Betrayed Republican

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 23:53 | 398976 Mr Lennon Hendrix
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Copy that.
An Ex-Democrat

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 06:21 | 399222 SecretGoldfish
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yep.  formerly ex-republican, currently ex-democrat . . . which makes me DOUBLY to blame

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 06:38 | 399231 dark pools of soros
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Rodney King nailed his 15 mins of infamy - forever putting a caption on the world's toils

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:49 | 398590 DosZap
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Agreed, but I still think if the Sheeple would awaken( enough seem to be), and stop feeiling sorry for themselves...we ( 38 states) should have called a Con Con, a year ago........

We could have wiped this friggin slate clean, I mean the entire enchhilada............why NO group of citizens, have not neutered their Governors over this, and their legislatures is BEYOND me.

Congress would have to call it(no choice) ,and WE would get to select our own Delegates................NOT THEM.

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 00:42 | 399030 Ignore Amos
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The Sheeple are stumpbroke.  They accept this is the natural state of affairs because they have been trained so.

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public" - H.L. Mencken

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 19:33 | 398467 docj
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We can change that any time we want.  But we're totally addicted to free lunches - even if they're poop sandwiches.

Or are you suggesting this is not precisely the government this electorate wants?

Edit: I owe you an answer for this, as it's a legit question...

What would a better, more deserving people do?

Stop demanding free stuff from Uncle Sugar would be a decent start.  Most of the rest would follow from that, methinks.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 19:56 | 398498 Currently Smoki...
Currently Smoking Cannabis's picture

I agree that would be a decent start.

I would prefer to see people demand accountability of those 'above' them.  It seems to me we've come to accept that certain rules and laws should not apply to certain groups and organizations.  Instead we're resigned to, "That's just the way it is."  So we tolerate lying and stealing from our rulers while demanding ethics and morality from our peers.

At the same time, we tolerate and publicly respect our abusers in the name of Patriotism and good citizenship, and they take that and run with it.  Before we turn on each other, I'd like to see us all realize who's really screwing who here.

If it sounds like I'm speaking of class warfare, it's because i think there was a war started long ago.  Those within the losing classes are starting to realize it, but they're being led to believe that the teams are other than they are.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:05 | 398508 docj
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Good points.  Stop demanding "free stuff", hold people to account, end "That's just the way it is".  All good.

As to "who's really screwing who", I'm starting to come to terms with the notion that "The Banks Never Lose".  I find that anything that doesn't make sense at first blush starts to make nearly perfect sense when viewed through that prism.  Lots follow from that.  But that's just me, YMMV.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:21 | 398531 Currently Smoki...
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Agreed.  We're just hitting two ends of the same corrupt, jacked system.

If we win, I'll see ya in the middle.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:52 | 398596 DosZap
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WHY do you think the Founders were AGAINST Centralized Banking?.....

We're living it.

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 03:41 | 399134 lost in the usa
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Account or no accountability as sone as you can vote yourself money for whatever purpous you no matter how moral or for how many children you end up with class welfare, If I can take money out of your pocket for what I think is good then you can do the same to me.

The only one's that win are the middle men Read politicians who play one group aginst another and skim off the top the more groups the more skimming. Wola American politics in a nutshell. And almost all politics in general.

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 06:45 | 399238 dark pools of soros
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just as bookies only care to split the bet & live off the juice.   Thats the politics we have

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 18:38 | 398415 Gully Foyle
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I saw her today at the reception 
A glass of wine in her hand 
I knew she was gonna meet her connection 
At her feet was footloose man 

You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
But if you try sometimes you might find 
You get what you need 

I went down to the demonstration 
To get my fair share of abuse 
Singing, "We're gonna vent our frustration 
If we don't we're gonna blow a 50-amp fuse" 

You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
But if you try sometimes well you just might find 
You get what you need 

I went down to the Chelsea drugstore 
To get your prescription filled 
I was standing in line with Mr. Jimmy 
And man, did he look pretty ill 
We decided that we would have a soda 
My favorite flavor, cherry red 
I sung my song to Mr. Jimmy 
Yeah, and he said one word to me, and that was "dead" 
I said to him 

You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
But if you try sometimes you just might find 
You get what you need 

You get what you need--yeah, oh baby 

I saw her today at the reception 
In her glass was a bleeding man 
She was practiced at the art of deception 
Well I could tell by her blood-stained hands 

You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
But if you try sometimes you just might find 
You just might find 
You get what you need 

You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
But if you try sometimes you just might find 
You just might find 
You get what you need 

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 18:58 | 398437 Blue Fairy
Blue Fairy's picture

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

Tennessee Ernie Ford 

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 19:27 | 398472 docj
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Uh, sure.  Whatever.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 19:52 | 398493 nmewn
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"The government I live under has been my enemy all my active life. When it has not been engaged in silencing me it has been engaged in robbing me. So far as I can recall I have never had any contact with it that was not an outrage on my dignity and an attack on my security."
HL Mencken


Sun, 06/06/2010 - 19:56 | 398499 docj
docj's picture

So far as I can recall I have never had any contact with it that was not an outrage on my dignity and an attack on my security.

Mencken's quote seems pretty spot-on to me.  Every time I have to deal with government at any level (local, state, fed), which is unfortunately almost weekly in my case, I feel like I need to take a shower afterward.

An "outrage on my dignity" is a much nicer way of putting that.  Thanks, and cheers.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:18 | 398527 nmewn
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Unfortunately, our best and brightest do not reside there, with some notable exceptions of course. It was not always this way, perhaps someday it will become the servant instead of the master again.

Hope springs eternal ;-)



Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:22 | 398532 Rusty_Shackleford
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Although sometimes I try to think of of government as a huge, blind, rabid, foaming at the mouth pit-bull wandering our neighborhoods.  The best option is to try and stay as far away from it as you possibly can.  But, you never really know when it's going to jump out from behind a tree and bite you on the ass.  And when it does, no one is going to help you and there ain't a damn thing you can do about it.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 21:04 | 398617 Kali
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Yup, spot on Rusty

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 06:57 | 399244 dark pools of soros
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docj - all this talk here and you are still not seeing it.  You forgot to mention that dealing with big biz is the same ridicule of humanity as dealing with the government.  


just let it sink in that even with all the taxpayer and soldier's expense to allow the big 4 Oil back into Iraq for unlimited gains, one of them felt no need to regard higher safety precautions when encountering new unknown risks.  But when someone is used to getting whatever they want, why bother with common courtesy?

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 09:05 | 399381 docj
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Well, I "forgot" to mention that dealing with Big.Biz is every bit as degrading because it wasn't really the subject at hand.  But sure, yeah, you're right.  Anyone who's ever had to deal with, for example, a health insurance company knows that all too well.

The difference is that you often (or at least sometimes) have the option to not deal with a big biz.  I've not yet been able to afford that luxury with Big.Gov - but maybe I'm just not enough skilled.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:17 | 398525 Mr Lennon Hendrix
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Vote for?  I think you meant that Diebold votes for.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 23:30 | 398913 Oh regional Indian
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Die Bold.... now there is a telling name if there ever was one.

I say Die Boldly.


Sun, 06/06/2010 - 23:57 | 398984 Mr Lennon Hendrix
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Thus why I have not voted in the last two Presidential elections.  I spit on this machine!

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 17:30 | 398298 SofaPapa
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I've never thought of Fannie and Freddie as separate from the government.  Any "private" quality to them has always been a myth.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 18:32 | 398405 MarketTruth
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Agreed, though the US Gov refuses to put the liability of Fred/Fan on the debt books. So simply more (normally expected) fraud by the US Gov.

Got gold?

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 21:24 | 398664 DoChenRollingBearing
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Yes, and looking to buy more.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 18:18 | 398370 EscapeKey
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Absolutely - there's no way any Labour supporter here in the UK would ever conceed the conmen they voted in brought the country to its knees financially. It's much easier to point the finger of blame at the rich bankers who represent a much smaller problem.

It's systemic failure to take responsibility.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 22:26 | 398789 Neo-zero
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I guess people are the same all over.  They've fallen into the my side/my guy's great yours sucks.  

That being said I was just at a BBQ here in NY and alot of people regreting pulling the lever for the Obama/Goldman Sacks ticket.  Way more then I would have expected to say so out loud.

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 07:05 | 399248 dark pools of soros
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you knew it was pointless when both obama and mccain ran down to D.C. to support the TARP...  they should replay all those video clips of the hurried overnight meetings that both of them faked reading the damn thing 

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 07:37 | 399265 New_Meat
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Well, the choice was between a Liberal and a Socialist (or more than). - Ned

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 19:44 | 398488 Noah Vail
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We surpassed the 1:1 ratio a long time ago.

GDP itself is a bad joke as it includes government spending of borrowed money. Real GDP is probably closer to $10T than $14T. Same goes for goverment debt where official debt is far less than real debt.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:25 | 398536 Ragnar D
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Just like adding government "workers" to the job count instead of subtracting them.

I'm about ready to start my own financial news service.


Private economic activity MINUS gov't spending = productive economy size

Private employment MINUS gov't overhead = productive jobs count

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 22:11 | 398759 masterinchancery
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Absolutely right--the G only got into GDP because most economists work for the government.  Indeed, many govt employees are actively subtracting from GDP--think EPA and FTC and SEC, amongst others.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 22:52 | 398835 Ragnar D
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Departments of:

Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, Labor, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, Energy, Education...

Then the FCC, FDA, NEA, "Labor Relations Authority", etc.


The best of these are money pits, the worst are money pits that actively destroy additional productivity.

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 07:15 | 399249 dark pools of soros
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all this talk of private biz being so holy is jackass.  Don't you fucking realize that the oligarchy you worship are the ones behind the government that you despise????!!!!!  yet you kiss its feet regardless


big business CREATES big government.. how else can it outfund and squash at will?  Just as they know to divide and pit us against ourselves, slicing up big business would in turn divide the government...   at that point the states can have more say vs the federal gov and america would be on its way back to what made it strong

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 07:40 | 399269 New_Meat
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but ~70% US is small business that is getting crushed - Ned

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 10:19 | 399503 dark pools of soros
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right and i doubt any have any money left over for lobbyists, etc


we need the states to take power back.. i dont see any other way to make a dent

Mon, 06/07/2010 - 03:56 | 399146 lost in the usa
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8.6 trill on the books and 4.5 from ss fund the problem is they can not steal 200 bil a year or so from ss fund it went neg minus intrest payment this year. If rates

We have added about 3.6 trill to the debt in two years from about 5 trill and ss went neg so as sone as intrest rates hit 5 in a half to maybe 7 percent without big cuts they will be paying an extra bill or two a day in intrest and lost stolen funds from ss. I think the debt bloweout hits 3 to 6 months after intrest rates hit that level. Faster if they can keep things going for a while longer, extend and pretend keep rates at 3.2 percent and shorten up the maturaty for another 2 years and make the debt 11 trill and see the SHTF at 5 or 4 percent avg rate.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 20:56 | 398605 Heavy
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I'd say: that the moneyis funny is a bigger problem than the spending of funny money.

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 17:17 | 398275 RagnarDanneskjold
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Most of these analyses assume GDP is going up. If there's a double dip, the party gets started next year. 

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 17:26 | 398290 rubearish10
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+1 RD, especially if inventory builds have topped out, it'll happen faster! Good, the sooner the better since we must end this thing before we go to war!

Sun, 06/06/2010 - 17:39 | 398311 A Man without Q...
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It also assumes the current GDP is accurate and not grossly overstated as the consequence of years of minor tweaking to imply the economy was growing faster than it really was and therefore that the increase in borrowing was less of an issue.

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