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Increasing Signs Of Stress At Citi?
A reader sends in this morsel from Citi, offering to take (and keep quiet about) a 47% loss on a Citi credit card account if only the user will pay before year's end. A few things occur to us on reading this letter:
- If widespread, this would appear to be awfully desperate on Citi's part. Perhaps, combined with the massive spike in APR we've seen elsewhere, things are beginning to slip? Of course, this is mere speculation based on a single anecdotal case but it does make us very curious.
- This is collossolly stupid of Citi. Once word gets out what exactly do they expect the rest of their credit card customers will consider doing?
- The specificity of the balance settlement (53%) sounds suspiciously like someone's model gone viral at Citi. Why this figure exactly?
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There is a serious moral hazard to people just walking away from their debt. While I do not condone the behavior of banks in this crisis, at no point did they put a proverbial gun to a debtor's head and say "spend freely". Personal responsibility has to come into play at some point. I took out a HELOC on my home to invest in the market, and needless to say I've paid a dire price for it. However, the choice was mine, and I am paying for the consequences. Sure, given the luxury of hindsight I would have done many things differently. But the decision was mine and mine alone. These "strategic defaults" are nothing more than a way to pass the buck to someone else. Whenever someone makes the argument "everyone is doing it", it brings me back to when I was a teenager and used those very points to convince my parents why I should be allowed to do something, it didn't work then why should it work now? My father had this advice for me to which to this day I try to abide by, "son doing what is right is not always easy, but it is ALWAYS right".
But they DID put a gun to my head saying I can use only paper printed by the Fed as "money". This is THE most idiotic, frivolous and false argument ever - and the same one put forth by the banksters and their servants. Let's say for example I buy up the entire water supply in an area, and then charge a fee to have anybody access the water, am I putting a gun to the anybody's head to pay for the water? This is exactly what the bankers do. They use the government to create and enforce their monopoly on the money supply and enslave us all. And then they have the GALL to come up and spout all these arguments about ethics and morality when they themselves are THE most corrupt individuals on the planet. No sir - I ain't buyin' it.
you need help. seriously.
No, Gordon Gekko makes a very good point. The Federal Reserve Note is a problem.
All we need is for some state to declare that only gold and silver coin is legal tender, as is required by the U.S. Constitution, and watch the fireworks fly.
Exactly.
My man, Gordon!
Greed is good, baby!
I am Chumbawamba.
or when some town/city/township successfully pulls a 21st century Worgl in a state that turns a blind eye and the idea goes viral.
+1 Nice one Max!
Oh yeah! All you paper loving, banker slaves forgot Silver and Gold are required by the Constitution.
Huh? What was that? We are unethical and immoral you say, for wanting this fake paper system to collapse and set people free from debt and get back to what your vary own Constitution says is money?
Paper Money Slaves Suck!
If you borrow money at a certain percentage rate, make all your payments on time but still get you interest rate jacked up to loan shark rates then that's a different story. I personally paid off my credit card debts but I cannot blame others for defaulting.
Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. You can play by whatever rules you want, but realize that your opponent will play by his rules.
There is nothing wrong with strategic defaults. It's a new world now. 30 years ago, people in the US had jobs for life. That social contract was broken once companies like GM started laying people off because their plant was profitable but wasn't "profitable enough." This lay birth to the "free agent" society that we live in today, which is zero loyalty to our paymasters.
Same thing goes with this. Corporations can fuck us over and do whatever is LEGALLY right, not what is MORALLY right, and what is best for their shareholders. We should do the same, and do what is best for us and our family. If that means walking away from a home that is underwater because of a mess WALL STREET created, so be it.
I've already mentioned this, but look at CIT, Simmons, GM or any other company that filed for bankruptcy. I personally lost a huge chunk of my savings in Washington Mutual last year because I trusted them when they said they were safe. It was my risk to invest in Wamu just like it was the bank's risk for lending me money. They had no qualms of filing for bankruptcy. We shouldn't either. We need to start thinking of our finances as more like a business rather than some outdated notion that we need to pay our debt back. The debt that we are lent is simply a business contract. We have the option to break the contract and suffer whatever consequences are spelled out in the contract.
Don't make it more than what it is. There is no more notion of moral hazard. What should guide us as citizens in this world dominated by Wall Street is something they understand, which is pure dollars and cents, and what is best for the shareholder, namely ourselves.
Take the total of your actual expenditures. Add to that a reasonable rate of interests. That is surely the limit of any moral hazard. Most credit card balances represent a royal reeming far beyond the reasonable expectation of the borrower, based on an agreement meant to deceive the borrower.
well said.
another way to put it, "doing the harder right, instead of the easier wrong."
Look, Paper Ponzi Slave! Do you realize the money that youre trying to do the right moral thing with is printed out of thin air? IT DOESNT EXSIST! Wake up, and go buy gold and get off your stupid Ponzi soap box! You really dont know what you are talking about!
I hear your opinion. If a man's lender was also a lender to the company that shipped his job to Mexico, and now his children are hungry, then he might have to make a tough choice. His children, or the lender who helped ship his job to Mexico? The lender, whose children, of course, are eating very well, and going to Harvard to boot, will tell the man, and will also tell Congress, that the man "should" let his children go hungry, in order to pay the lender.
At some point it isn't worth trying to pay back, especially with 30% rates.
MsCreant, Thanks for the very sensible advice and the encouragement. I always enjoy reading your posts.
I have known we were "in the shit" for quite a while, I'm actually somewhat surprised (Perhaps secretly and somewhat guiltily disappointed) that things have held together for so long. I should not have been surprised by the fact that our financial/political overlords would go to such depths of criminality to maintain the status quo at any cost. In hindsight though, what choice did they have? They have no vision, no viable plan B, No future that is not modeled on the unsustainable past. The only real universal constant is change. Entropy really. Jesus, Now I'm infringing on CB's turf. ;) Time to cap the Sapphire and go to bed.
Thanks again!
OT
See if you are on a spotter card.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/25/spotter-cards#
The level of implementation of the Nanny/Surveillance State in the UK is just mind-blowing to me, except that we are going as fast as we can in the same totalitarian direction. I'm sure I'm all over the Department of Homemade Stupidity version of the "Spotter Card"
To paraphrase Chumbawumba (I sure am 'derivative' today)
I am Tom Joad, For Fuck's sake! (I actually prefer the Hollywood version of the speech)
"I'll be all around in the dark. I'll be ever'-where - wherever you can look. Wherever there's a fight so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever there's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad - I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry an' they know supper's ready. An' when the people are eatin' the stuff they raise, and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there, too."
If you are just below 90 days late they will settle with you. 90+ days are defaults which screws up their balance sheets. a settlement doesn't create as many problems. A full default is a loss, 53% better than a 100% loss, collections, please, lucky to collect $.10 on the dollar. This is not unusual at all. Take the deal, it is a great deal.
Seeking to negotiate a reduced payoff for a debt…remember the dreaded 1099-C. For those of you with one or more parents still living; include a provision in the deal that you will pay the lender “X” $’s, but the creditor must also sell the “note” to your parents, for a token price. Then each of your parents can “gift” you $10,000 per year of debt forgiveness and reduce or eliminate the tax consequence of stiffing the f’ing banksters.
Check out the loophole of "technically insolvent"....if so, no tax owed on cancelled debt as income.
Nice solution.
It's basically a free for all now folks. Everybody - including the government - is grabbing what they can get their hands on. Make sure you get yours before it all goes down the proverbial shitter - or be prepared to go homeless and starve to death as a reward for being an honest (gullible is actually the correct word) slave...er..."debtor".
DO NOT PAY ONE RED CENT TO THE CREDIT CARD SHARKS. GET YOUR TARP MONEY BACK WHICH THE GOVERNMENT FORCIBLY TOOK FROM YOU AND GAVE TO THE BANKSTERS.
PAPER PONZI TARDS NEED TO READ THEIR HISTORY BOOKS ABOUT THE COLLAPSE OF USSR. ALL THE BIG PLAYERS JUST GRABED EVERTHING BEFORE THE COLLAPSE. GEE, LOOKS A LOT LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY!
About 11 months ago I had an 800+ FICO score. Today I have self repo'd both cars and bought an affordable one before my credit went in the toilet. Not paying CC's and am trying to modify my underwater mortgage. Things change. Lessons learned: don't confuse net worth with self worth and pay cash. Don't rely on credit.
Here's what I got from Citi today via UPS 2nd Day Air [comments in brackets are me]:
Dear Chumb A. Wamba [my legal name]
So you are probably wondering [no] why we just paid to overnight [2nd day, you kidder] you this one sheet of paper. Honestly, it is because we have not been able to contact you for some time [oh yes, welcome to auto-attendant hell] and need you to call us so we can help you.
By not speaking with you, we have not had the opportunity to share with you a variety of solutions that may help you through whatever financial difficulty you may be experiencing. [if you were concerned with my financial well-being you wouldn't have blown up the economy] Let us help you get your account back in good standing.
Simply put, there are a number of temporary and permanent options you may be able to take advantage of, including:
In some cases we may even be able to combine options. It all starts with you making a phone call today [uh, creepy].
blah blah blah
Sincerely,
G. Stevens
Vice President
Citicorp Credit Services, Inc. (USA
Well, that's a swell offer, G. Stevens, but I'm afraid I already got a better offer. It was called Fuck You, and you accepted it by default. Sucks being you.
I am Chumbawamba.
ROTFLMFAO!!!
Bring back debtor prisons!
Certainly! We'll need a place to put bankers, politicians and asshats like you when we take back our country.
I am Chumbawamba.
that letter was too funny. LMFAO
Chumba, My hat is off to you. I have had to do the same things and you bring bring a great deal of humor and logic to something that to most is a horrific ordeal...
-Michael
Except I'm not a debtor (too smart). Is there anything we can get you, Mr. Chumba? A big house, lifetime pension, free healthcare? Sorry the world has dealt you such a shitty hand at no fault of your own.
my situation
-10 weeks of unemployment benefits remaining. i'll probably end up filing for an extension, as I've only had one interview in 16 weeks.
-no debt. i rent with a roommate, live in a city and use cheap public transit, have no unsecured credit balances.
-enough liquid assets to cover me for ~18-24 months. the low end is if I can't extend my benefits and my investments take a hit.
that said, i don't view maxing out credit and then defaulting as something that could possibly benefit me. lets say i maxed out my cards and bought 20g worth of stuff (i imagine gold/silver would be the best thing i could charge?), default and then settle for 50 percent. if i'm understanding things correctly, i've "made" 10g at the expense of my good name. i don't have an end-of-the-world take on things, so i'll take future credit worthiness over a hassle-filled 10g gain.
Good name? Are you f--king kidding me? Did goldman sachs give two shits about their "good name" while ripping the taxpayers (i.e. YOU) off? Dit Citi? Did JPMorgan? Did Warren Buffett? Did US government? HELL NO! So why should you?
Gordon and Chumba are right. You Paper Ponzi Tards are going to go extict, because you just cant quite grasp the inevitable financial evolution that is taking place here and now. Sorry Suckers!
I just read a lot of comments here and I'd like some advice, if you please, on my credit situation. If anyone wished to insult me after what they read, be forewwarned, I'v been married 27 years...and as Sam Kinnison would scream...AH HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Let me state up front that I have been long some SRS and FAZ and the total disregard for Sarbades Oxley has cost me far more than the $13,000 I owe Citi. Why is my credit card balance that high on just one card that my wife doesn't know about? Three things: 1 - more guns; 2 - ammo; 3- componets to reload. I have A LOT off ammo and a lot of professional training to use what I have if the SHTF. I live in the south now and we rally do get to shoot first and ask questions later if someone is stupid enough to break in. I was looking to pay it off without my wife knowing how much I spent on ammo (before they crucified SRS) that I bought over a year ago as well as two new ARS, a Kimber .45, and powder and primers. Guys that shoot here know what I'm talking about.
I got the 29.99% letter from Citi. I have a credit score of 805 last I looked. My house is paid for as my scumbag insurance comaony forced me into accepting 50% of my benefits, so I took most of it, paid off my home, and effectively lost $3500 a month for 12 more years. I am on Social Security disability because at 53 I have Multiple Sclerosis. I worked on Wall Street for many years and if you haven't worked there you can only dream of the corruption and still not approaach its true level.
So call me what you like for thinking of this, but these are the same bastards in banking that get money for nothing and engage in government santioned usury.
Can I afford to write the a check for all of it? Sure. But screw them. It's not me I feel for, it's people I know who are losing their jobs and are maxing out credit and drowning. I could take three couples I know who lost jobs in banking out to really great dinners for $250 on me if Citi pays for it.
That said, should I call Citi, say I can offer them 50% now by borrowing it from a family member and have it to them in a week, and if not I'll just keep paying the minimum?
If they accept the 50% of the balancce due how will that affect my credit score if at all?
Thanks in advance
Dude, what's the mystery here? Just stop paying. If you don't want your wife to find out, get a post office or private mail box and change the address on your CC statements to that. Also, change the number on your account to something that won't ring to any phone to which your wife has access. Now it'll be your little secret, and you can do what makes sense.
Shit, with all that fire power, what idiot bank is going to try to come and collect on you?
But if they do, there are more tricks up a debtor's sleeve. Quit-claim the deed on your house to your wife. At this point you may have to tell her what's going on as she'll probably need to sign some papers :) Then if they do come after you, sorry, no assets!
I "owe" more than twice what you do to Citi. I bought guns, ammo, gold, silver and other stuff with a cash advance they were nice enough to give me last Fall when the shit was actively hitting the fan. I will use these things as leverage with which to stave off the bank, if/when they try to collect.
Did they think that when they started playing by a different set of rules, everyone else would continue to use the old rulebook? Fucking morons.
I am Chumbawamba.
Like you said:
What better opportunity will you get to stick it to them? But you have to be mentally prepared and in the right frame of mind to do this.
Getting in an argument with a seasoned pit trader is an ugly thing indeed...LOL. You learn to not get fucked by weasles that are like those fish that feed of shaks. I can say and do anything and play any part.
My only question is my credit rating. I'm talking about saving $6k-$7k. Having my credit sscore drop to 550 from 800 is not woth it.
Will that be affected?
Thaanks
Has everyone forgotten that America is its worse enemy, we as a nation are trillions of dollars in debt and are running the printing presses non stop to drop $$$$ from helicopters... where is this money going to... Me, NO, You, NO, how about the financial system to keep it afloat, whether you default or not, in real life our country is on the verge of a mass default... the only way out is to change the system, how do you change the system, by creating change, you create change by forcing these banks to show their cards that they have failed to show over several decades, times up, let them play as I see it they / we are lending $$$ we have created from thin air not backed by anything... it's all a game... its all fiction... these banks need to change their ways, we need to change our ways, and for all of you bitching about morals... watch as the banks start charging you shit loads of fees for carrying no balance or not a big enough or by paying off your cards on time... as for me I make 000,000 and I'm creating change I'm done with the same as usual... ask yourself are you?
A+
Gecko? When you going to post another video... how about you do one in front of 85 broad st?
funnier than shit, my wife, a homemaker, just defaulted on about 60k in CC's, we just got a preapproval for a credit card application from First Premier Bank... sign me up? I'll make a years worth of payment's and by then poof... the bank will most likely be gone with these underwriting standards... what is even scarier is if these banks can't lend they make no $$$$
I'm the proverbial Greater Fool...someone who made a good deal of money and spent none of it, carries no debt, sold the last of his property in 2006, and has the great dishonor of having my tax money bail out failures and fools and criminals, who are now rewarding themselves with record bonuses, as if they actually earned it.
The bastards would not exist without my money (and yours). So they paid it back? Bullshit. Did they pay back the AIG CDS payouts? Did they give back the money they made on information provided to them (but not us) by Geithner, Paulson and Bernanke? Have they told the Fed they can afford to pay more at the discount window and don't feel right with the ongoing taxpayer financed bailout? Have they given Bernanke a discount on the $1.25 trillion in MBS he is removing from their BS and off-BS SIV's?
You all are saying run up the cards, default on the home and stick it to them.
I'm taking that a step further: I am relinquishing my membership in that fool's gang known as the United States of America. It ain't my country anymore, stands for nothing, and is a sick joke of what it pretends or claims to be. Did I mention that I previously served? Guess I've always been the fool. No more. Wheels up. At worst I'm just a ship deserting a sinking rat.
I am Sovereign where I tread.
I am Chumbawamba.
you could always join the Lakotah:
http://www.republicoflakotah.com/about-us/faq/
looks like they're working on some pretty interesting projects actually.
Dude I served over 6 years, went to war, lost a marriage and have been wheels up since 06. The US aint the US anymore. Chumba's right, WE ARE SOVEREIGN LAND! Dont feel bad about leaving. The worlds a big place youll find a new better place to call home. I suggest the former USSR, those people have been through so many crisis' they wont even blink when the system collapses. And the girls are hot!
As a ZH lurker I find these comments absolutely amazing. Last year, in a CR thread I wondered what would happen if people who held underwater mortgages but could still afford to pay, decided to stop paying and default. Basically, engage in a debtors rebellion. At that time, my estimate was that US banks would face $4 trillion in losses. The thing that prevented that from happening was that there were so many people who felt a moral obligation to pay back loans that they had taken out. It appears from much that is posted here that anger against the bank bailouts is overcoming those moral obligations. Now I hear people extending this to CC debt. If what is being said here is any reflection of what is going on in rest of the country, banks could be facing some serious hurt.
BTW, folks be carefull how you carry out this rebellion. Some of the suggestions I have read here constitute CC fraud and those are crimes the state will prosecute not to mention tax liabilities that others have pointed out. Returning your keys to a bank on a non-recourse mortgage is one thing, running up CC debt and refusing to pay is another.
There is risk in everything. This is a risk I'm willing to take, because the alternative is slavery. I am not a slave.
I will not obey.
I am Chumbawamba.
I cant understand such an outrage by some commentators. There is only one thing that needs to be said about the whole matter. The legal system is to blame in the same measure the political and the financial systems are. The legal system is constructed in such a manor that this sort of behavior has become prevalent. The only reason why that is the way it is, is that the punishment, for those who abuse the giant black holes of regulation, is not a punishment at all. I see,that many people limit all their CCs, stop paying the mortgage, stop paying taxes just to spite the government, the bankers, the state, the country, the corrupt political system; whatever. It has become culturally acceptable to just default on your obligation and try to blackmail those who provided you with means to lead your over the top, unsustainable life style. And as we see by this example, many people are winning in this battle, simply because the financial dinosaurs, the behemoths of finance are to weak and to vulnerable and are ready to forgive the debts, or settle them with the penny-on-the-dollar repayments. Yes, it is a fucking disgrace for what those same behemoths did to the World, yes they should be stripped of the cloth that protects them, and which is bought and paid for; yes many of them should be put into jail, yes the FED should be audited, and if there is no possibility of abolishing it, should be politically independent, and not pushed around by various lobbies, various politicians, various interest groups. The housing mess which we are witnessing now is a result of the PC organizations to make housing affordable to everyone, no matter what their income is, or what their regular payments potential is. The FED policy has, for to long been pushed around by bureaucratic motherfuckers and various sides of the political isles, and well as strong lobbying by the multinationals. Not one goddamn thing will get better until EVERYONE endure their share of the effort which needs to be made, their share of the pain, which they afflicted upon themselves with their irrational, and, oh ever so, optimistic view on the whole thing. Not a single goddamn thing will improve until EVERYONE learn that there are privileges, rights, duties and obligations, and that " everything will be all right just because i think so " bullshit get wiped out from peoples minds.
Sorry for the rant, I'm just pissed at all this shit ...
" ..... there is nothing left to save, it is all so fucking boring, let it die, i say. Let there be a new beginning ...."
C.Bukowski
THANK YOU CB:
Guess what guys, I feel a lot of sympathy for those
of you in pain. Those of you who are J6Ps. Even if
it is imported beer. I have lived below my means all
my life. Bought my only new car in '73 and found
financing a ripoff. Learned to fix cars and have
bought and driven junk since. Bought SERIOUS fixer-
upper houses and learned to plaster, carpenter, etc.
Traded up in areas next to ongoing development and
put up with noise and dirt. Re-invested tax free as principal residence. Paid a total of $60k in mortgage over the years. Bought garage sale furniture. Couldn't have lived cheaper. Paid for private school for the kids.
Paid off kids debts and gave each $50k to move on
with life. And got laughed at and looked down on by
all the yuppies. My inlaws thought -and said- that I
must be white trash and my wife should divorce and go
for the money. When she died -stroke- an in-law took over the funeral arrangements cause I couldn't be trusted to do it right. Just got a $1.1 million cash offer
for my property. Just got a phone call from a brother in law that hasn't visited in 30 years. Says he NEVER
thought I was white trash hillbilly redneck looser.
By the way he lost his job and would I be interested
in taking over payments on his wifes' CLK. Sorry, I
bought 18 acres and a doublewide in Asscrack Arkansaw.
I have enough to live out my life and maybee leave
something to the kids. You yuppies that lived fast
can go ahead and die young. I've lived outside the
system all my life. Dont give a D**n if you default
or not. Don't give a D**n about my FICA score or
yours. I am a redneck hillbilly pot smoking retiree
and would be smiling if I ever did care about the
yuppie problems.
Good on you, brother!
I am Chumbawamba.
I usually agree with what you have to say cheeky, but I'm afraid I disagree - for the most part - with you on this one. You are dead wrong, my friend.
Ummm...No. They already got theirs with all the government bailouts and CDS scams. They are now trying to collect on the same debt a THIRD F--KING TIME!
+1 on the CB via CB. whatever nutrients are left will be stored in the soil for the new plants to use as they need.
A lawyer group negotiated a settlement of 1/3, including their fee. Don't forget to get in writing a clause that the debt will be reported as "paid in full" so not hits to your credit score. And in the case above, the debt was paid in full. The majority of this amount "owed" was in daily over-limit fees, next other fees, next interest. Only about 25% was the actual "debt."
PS. But what does it mean when a bank is not paying basic branch repair/maintenance bills that are due, and says to the vendor "the FDIC won't allow" such payouts at this time."
"You have The Chumbawamba guarantee on that."
Best line of the day.
A credit card account paid off in the way offered will be shown as a "settled account," which will ding your credit rating. Can't tell you the exact points hit to the FICO but it is not fatal, in my estimation, given where we are in the "lax credit-tight credit" cycle. Who in their right mind is looking to borrow right now anyway - you are doing yourself a favor with a lower FICO score.
Haven't read all the comments so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but also note that Citi is shit-canning accounts cobranded with gas stations. Mobil, Shell, etc. They're doing it with no notice at all. Happened to attorney friend yesterday, a guy with great credit.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/business/consuminginterests/blog/2009/10...
You see they do this, but then they expect us to follow their rules.
EXPERIENCE FREEDOM, WITHDRAW ALL MONEY FROM BANKS BUY GOLD AND STOP PAYING DEBTS!
The Chinese are doing it, the Russians are doing, everyone is doing it! Do you poor decieved Paper Ponzi Slaves really want to keep this evil debt system afloat?
You people are seriously screwed up. Why don't I just walk away from my taxes, my car payments, the education of my children.
Why don't you all return the Nike's and the plazmas and the appliances to the bank who paid for them all and go live in Liberia.
You are all going to have fucked credit for much of your lives. You won't be able to rent an apartment, or buy a decent car or even rent a car! Do you plan on carrying a suitcase of cash around with you?
You all sound like spoiled Gen x Gen Y.
Completely agree. What happened to personal responsibility in this country, it's all the evil credit cards fault, or the banks fault for running up the credit card debt.
For everyone who wants to live in this world without rules, without institutions where you can steal without consequence might I recommend a one way flight to Somolia, I hear it's nice and tropical over there.
It died the day the government abdicated its responsibility to uphold the US Constitution and became an enforcer of the bankster's LOOTING program (1913).
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I am Chumbawamba.
ANOTHER PAPER ZOMBIE LESSON FOR ALL TO SEE!
There is no law with paper money because it is not real! Only something painstakingly dug out of the ground that has been true money for thousands of years is real! Even your own Constitution says Gold and Silver are money by law!
So why dont you go take a hike over to Somolia and take the Squid and the FED with you!
Got Gold Sucka!
Wages have been flat since I was born in 1972. Actually, mens wages are lower in 2008 dollars now than in 1972.
NOT EVERYONE IS A GREEDY PIG. The system is set up to enrich a few ans screw the rest.
"What happened to personal responsibility in this country[?]"
It is dying the death of a thousand cuts; it is dying by inches, as individually people come to understand how money is created (by keystrokes, in a ledger entry, without limit) and they compare that to how that money they borrowed is repaid (by their labour, their time, which does have limits).
That their labour is increasingly spurned as companies run their lay-off machines around the clock in a race to the bottom is simply "tanj for torment".
JQP
"You won't be able to rent an apartment, or buy a decent car or even rent a car!"
And you, my friend, are either a dumbass or a lying sack of )*&^!
I took a huge credit score dump earlier this decade due to a business failure (mortgaged everything and lost everything). In the years since, I have vacationed on tropical islands, skied the finer slopes of the mountain west, traveled this great banana republic by air or in my nice car, rented the car of the day (a fine ride) for $15/day, ad infinitum...
Like I said you, my friend, are either a dumbass or a lying sack of )*&^!
News Flash Smart Guy:
Paper money aint real! Your taxes arent real, your car payments arent real and the payments for your childrens education aint real! The banks just create it out of thin air and charge you to use it! Stop using their fake money, withdaw it from the banks and exchange it while you can for real money (Gold) and other usable things.
Stop being a Paper Ponzi Zombie! Use your brain!
Listen to what these people are saying here today! If they stop paying like they are threatening to do what will happen to your paper wealth and percieved security? What if everyone loses faith in the system today? How will you pay for your childrens education let alone put food in their mouths?
Got Gold Sucka!
Listen up motherfucker. These problems were caused by the old fucks in Congress and the "give me everything. it's mine" attitude and sense of entitlement of baby-boomers. Don't blame this shit on the young people. Take responsibility for what YOUR GENERATION HAS DONE!!!
Chumbawamba: You are Lloyd Blankfein's and his ilk's worst nightmare.
'Mr. Blankfein, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Anarchy.'
Fuck yes, bitches!
I AM Chumbawamba.
Wait a minute now.
You bought the stuff of your own free will, so you have an obligation to pay for it. Negotiate a lower rate, pay it all off, then cut up the cards. But damn well pay the principal!
Don't pay, and your bad karma will get you. What goes around, comes around.
And in the future...NEVER finance a depreciating asset.
I'm not sure what fills a banker's heart with more trepidation, reading Chumbawamba's comments or Crosey's comment, 'NEVER finance a depreciating asset'.
Why does the market not get to be rational at the individual level (not that many buy the aggregate level protestation of efficiency these days or the illusion of superior talent that in fact involves HFTing your way to the front of the queue to sucker punch those behind you) and why should individuals not enjoy the upside of moral hazard as much as the boys on Wall Street?
There was a notorious town in the Southern States in the earlier part of the century where individuals were prone to insuring themselves and shooting limbs off to claim disability, it was known as "stump city".
Clearly, that can only happen where a working limb has a long term value less than the immediate value of the insurance payout.
What strategic defaults tell you is that a whole load of ordinary Americans think that the housing market is going exactly nowhere over the medium to long term.
It also tells you that the value of future credit access is worth less to them than cash in hand now. Which doesn't exactly speak for expectations of a return to a vibrant consumer economy. These people ain't planning to buy a speedboat anytime soon be the shoots ever so green. they've given up on the notion that their standard of living will better their parents and that their income will grow. The savings rate can probably be expected to keep increasing.
In fact, the only thing that will preserve the US standard of living at a personal level is a degree of deflation that outstrips the fall in the dollar/rise in commodity prices. Tall order.
Expect more stories of people shooting limbs off.
As someone experienced in face-to-face debt collection, I usually recover 100% of what is owed. Plus 10% for my time. And the deadbeat gets a free headbutt at no extra charge.
Yaaaaaawn. Oh sorry, you were saying something?
It seems like many commenters are assuming that the current economic situation is some sort of bump in the road. I am more of the opinion that this is much closer to the end of the road. I'm headed to Brazil next week to interview for a job. Haven't been able to score any interviews in the US (but have only been unemployed for a week.) I just don't think there is any chance that things will get better here until they get a whole lot worse. Worse on a scale not seen by anyone around today who has not lived in the 3rd world.
Unemployed a week and headed to Brazil? Beware the street crime and stay out of favelas unless you are in the white powder biz. Ciao.
Worse than anyone can imagine. Even me.
Prepare.
I am Chumbawamba.
Keep us posted on Brazil.
so one of the chief henchmen crimials, Hank Greenberg, stole tens of billions from AIG. He parked the monies with his 2 sons. Now he is in New york starting a competing AIG company and taking AIG employees. His attorney Neil barofsky is now in the Obama adminstration. Can it get any worse for Americans? This must be the crime capital of the world.
We should expect nothing less from the greatest Banana Republic eVer.
And yet we have been told this bullshit forever that we have the "greatest justice system on earth".
No doubt, crime capital of the planet is the good old USA.
Thread is gold, thanks for sharing.
This thread is amazing, I agree.
No matter what happens, we are so fucked.
Fucked A: Cause most default
Fucked B: Cause most keep taking it
The truth is there is no painless way out of this.
I hate to have to be the one to point this out, but that looks fake as shit. I use Citi and that is NOT the font they use in letters sent to customers. It looks like someone put it together using Microsoft Office from 1996.
And, 2ndly, why is this commanding the top spot on the site for 2 days now?
why is this commanding the top spot on the site for 2 days now?
1stly, because it is clearly a salient issue, I believe it is not the first time an article maintained top position for more than a day.
"I hate to have to be the one to point this out, but that looks fake as shit. I use Citi and that is NOT the font they use in letters sent to customers. It looks like someone put it together using Microsoft Office from 1996."
Why do you hate to point this out? Simply qualify yourself: Are you a forensics expert regarding copy and paste MS 1996 documents? Have you received a collections letter from Citi generated from the ALBQ operations? If you have, please inform us what kind of font appears on the computer generated collection letters originating from ALBQ.
Thank you,
Mr. Whoopie
Because no one cares about the original post, we are discussing how fucked up our country has become, a sewer of criminals, who run everything.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE59Q03Q20091027
I am Chumbawamba.
Glendale, CA what a fine community. The fraudsters must be getting bored with the staged auto accidents and run out of aliases to give to the insurance companies. "Let's see, did I use '-yan' or 'ian' at the end of my name in the last accident?"
Concur, a golden thread.
Absolutely, positively, unequivocally:
1) PLEASE help us all, by NOT PAYING YOUR DEBTS. Simply repudiate them. If you have CC debt, just say no. Particularly if you are broke, or GOING to be broke anyway, quit paying. Period.
2) Second, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, go to your bank, and WITHDRAW all the funds you have banked there, IN CASH. Remember that the liquid funds most banks have as "reserves" to pay out on demand deposits is in the 10% range of the total deposits (some a lot less). The amount they have in actual vault CASH is substantially less. If you, and the rest of your friends, WITHDRAW YOUR CASH (TAKE IT OUT OF THE BANKING SYSTEM), the pressure on the banks will be so great that they will all cave. More's the better. And, I might add, go IMMEDIATELY to your local gold dealer and buy physical gold with at least 25%, and preferably 50-75%, of the cash.
3) Third, SELL YOUR HOUSE, and RENT. If you are upside down, walk away.
We can stop this insanity. The bankers will NEVER expect this.
Its time to make the bankers pay!
Burn the Paper Ponzi System to the ground!
Simply stop paying, and buy physical Gold and physical tangible items.
Lets end this nightmare now!
LOTS OF PARASITES IN OUR ECONOMY FROM THE BANKERS, REALWHORES TO THE HOMEDEBTORS.
LOTS OF PARASITES IN OUR ECONOMY FROM THE BANKERS, REALWHORES TO THE HOMEDEBTORS.
I've had a CC with B of A for 15 years. I have paid them well more than I ever "borrowed" from them in interest. Why should I have any moral issues with walking away now. They are already ahead. I lost part of my income related to their risk taking and NOW they are getting my tax money to boot. In my mind they owe ME money right now. Fuck B of A.
Bravo!
Now go buy physical Gold and Silver with whatever paper money you have left!
Get out of the sinking Titanic that is Paper Ponzi money before it is too late!
Use up whatever remaining credit line you have with them and any other crooked credit cards you have and then tell 'em to fuck off.
NO NEED TO PAY THEM, WITH THEIR AVERAGE $18.2 MILLION BONUSES.
OUTRAGEOUS!!!
So what can we all learn from this golden thread?
1. Banks create fake paper/electronic money and force you to use it by law, even though your own Constition says Gold and Silver can be the only legal money in our land.
2. Stop using paper money and debt, today! This means withdraw all fake paper money from banks and exchange it for physical Gold and Silver and other needful things. This also means to stop paying all debts at once.
3. Be strong like your forefathers and stand up to the tyrany that is our fake paper/electronic ponzi money system and encourage others to do the same. There is more of us then there is of the bankers. Take your God given FREEDOM back! No ones going to do it for you, you have to be the bigger person and JUST SAY NO to fake money and evil banks!
What a bunch of whiny-ass babies who dream of burning it all to the ground in anarchist rage!
Who put a gun to your head to go into debt?
Did you need a $20k car or would a $10k car have still got you where you wanted to go?
Was it a 1200 sqft starter home like your mom and pop had or new 2600+ sqft home?
A new 47in Plasma/LCD with 5.1 surround sound or are you still using the 22" Old School TV you got in college back in the 80's? I'm looking at my old 22" Sylvania right now.
TV Cable bill? - Canceled it a year ago. Phone bill? - Dropped my land line last year as well. Went without health insurance until I turned 40.
Don't like banks, bankers, the Fed, fiat money, or cc's? Then don't f-ing use them! Use silver, I'll accept your gold as payment.
Pay cash, barter, shop at flee markets, buy second hand clothes, don't buy $100 Nikes or iphones or ipods or whatever else you think you can't live without. I used my laptop for 8 years before replacing it.
I drove my first car 12 years and 240k miles before buying a Jeep. Not the Grand Cherokee but a Cherokee Classic for $8k less.
Don't get me wrong - I've got my own debt hole I'm trying to get myself out of. Lost my job - health problems - went through my savings - it really sucks! I know!
I tried to do everything right - saved money for a rainy day, always pay the full amount my cc's, tried not to overspend, etc. But Wham! I got hit like everybody else.
No one did it too me! I hold no one accountable but myself - 100%.
Life sometimes sucks, it's not always fair - GET OVER IT!
Stop Blaming Other People for YOUR CHOICES and YOUR DECISIONS and YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GROW THE F#*K UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are right, it's our fault that banksters took over the country, along with various highwaymen, war profiteers, and petrochemical types. So, in addition to paying all debts, it's also time to take responsibility for our other mistakes, right? So, you have some good suggestions about buying second-hand clothes, but what do you suggest as far as bringing the elite criminals to justice? Living in a yurt won't do much to get Paulson a fair and speedy trial.
I agree paper currencies can be depreciated and destroys wealth in the process. What should we do? Here's a Top-Ten-List . . .
1) Vote with your pocketbook with every purchase you make. Chose local businesses and local products whenever possible.
2) Bank locally with a small home town bank, or even better a local credit union - they are likely not trading derivatives. Ask if they hold mortgages to maturity or do they sell them off to the secondary market.
3)Get involved in local political parties and campaigns. EVERYTHING starts at the local level! In the 80's and early 90's the Christian Coalition stormed every caucus and precinct meeting in Iowa and New Hampshire to cast their votes. Regardless what your may think of the group, they were effective in their efforts to push their people and positions up through local and state party organizations to eventually have a seat at the National Platform Committee. Did they control the party - no. Were they able to get their positions heard and have gain influence - yes.
4) Start writing letters - 100's of letters with sound policy arguments. Make phone calls every week. Find candidates you can support - send them money. Either your dollars talk or someone else's will - sorry but that's the way it works for now. No money - then volunteer to work phone banks, knock on doors, etc.
5) As I mentioned before, the Christian C. found out it only took a small very very active group of people who were willing to show up on the right nights in each local political organization to gain control. How many people do you really think show up one night a month at a boring, dry policy lecture, bad coffee, and no doughnuts political meeting in your hometown. A few judges, some lawyer wannabes, and some executive's wives who throw dinner parties and luncheons for all the other wives to get their husbands to write checks.
Can you call, organize, meetup, 20, 30, 50, like minded people to show up once a month to effect HOPE & CHANGE in your local political committee? If so, then you elect some like minded types to the state party committees. And guess what you just might get a few sent to the national conventions. It takes work, lots of work, for days, weeks, months, years, and even decades.
We didn't get here overnight and things cannot change overnight. It takes a long long long term commitment.
6) Run for office yourself. Present your positions at a public debate. Try to draw others to your position.
7) Please, please, please, teach every child you know, nieces, nephews, your children's friends, etc. the value of citizenship. Offer to take them to a historical museum or event. Explain our country's history to them and instill in them strong values, responsibility, and self-reliance. Volunteer to read a book at your elementary school - a good teaching moment. Volunteer for Big Brothers / Big Sisters.
8) Turn off the TV and leave it off. You and your family will be much healthier mentally without the constant propaganda. Read lots and lots of non-fiction books.
9) Check out Solari.com
10) Finally - If the whole house of cards does finally come crashing down - Then PREPARE yourself, your family, your friends for a much more simpler lifestyle. Plant a garden, learn to can foods, stock up on non-perishable food and supplies. Learn to hunt and butcher game and fish. Take as many first-aid and EMT classes as you can. Learn to value what is truly spiritual and everlasting. PRAY PRAY PRAY!
"We didn't get here overnight and things cannot change overnight. It takes a long long long term commitment."
Ha! Ha! Why all these 12 step programs people? I know your hearts are in the right place, but sheesh man wake up from the Ponzi Zombie dream youre living in!
Fake paper/electronic money is fake and illeagal under your Constitution. Period! You are a criminal acomplice for the FED by continuing to participate in this fraudulent system.
WITHDRAW ALL FAKE PAPER MONEY FROM THE BANK, BUY PHYSICAL GOLD, AND STOP PAYING ALL FAKE DEBTS THAT YOU THINK YOU OWE TO A SYNDICATE OF CRIMINAL BANKS!
The system will end at once, and you can start living free lives again under the laws of your Constitution!
Its just that simple, folks!
You sir, still dont get it.
Keep being responsible, keep excepting my Gold as payment, keep giving us all wise pep talks about growing up.
But just know that as long as this Paper Ponzi System keeps going, the weakest of our society get more and more skrewed. Like all the fixed income people, my grandma, orphans, widows, and single mothers. They are forced to use an ever depreciating money, that they keep getting less of. What do you suggest for those people to do?
Your so rightous and ethical, keep supporting this evil system. Just know that you are supporting the misery of the weakest class of people in our society. Congrats!
1. First off, the banks don't loan any one any money. They take your signature, turn it into securities, and hand over to you a fraction (1/10) of the money they made off of your signature.
2. You don't really owe them any money, so any amount of principal and interest they can scam off of you is a win situation for them.
3. Unsecured loans involve a 1099OID creation of new money. If you file a 1099OID form (and other forms)with your 1040 tax return, you can claim the principal you borrowed as (negative) income (a negative credit). This makes you the true creditor of the debt, and the banks are required to pay their income tax off the money they made from your signature.
4. The Banks sell unpaid debts to collection agencies. Under Uniform Commercial Code statutes, the debt collector is a 3rd party interloper in your commercial affairs. Send them a nice letter, tell them they are fired! to get out of your commercial affairs.
5. UCC requires a three-day response to any letters or requests. These are contracts. Always respond within 3 days.
6. If you miss the timing, you have contracted under UCC statutes and are presumed to owe the debt. In this case, send a nice letter indicating you will DISCHARGE the debts that are legally owed if they will respond by sending you some documents (A Conditional Acceptance for Value). Ask the collection agent to send you a statement of the account, a sworn Affividat under penalty of perjury of the True Bill that is owed and the Consideration they have in the transaction. Finally, ask for a bilateral agreement signed by both parties, a Meeting of the Minds between you and an officer of the company that has authority to sign for full commercial liability of the company. They cannot produce the documentation!
The mega wealthy have been whipping us with UCC merchant law for centuries. UCC is complex and misinformation is everywhere on the Internet. Learn and research meticulously from trusted sources.