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Inquiry Into Monopolistic Trading Practices By JPMorgan On LME Launched, Sending PMs Higher

Tyler Durden's picture


Some interesting headlines just hit Reuters:


As further clarification, our colleagues at the FT's blog Alphaville point out the following findings about JPM's dominance of the LME which apparently has pissed off at least one local committee (since the CFTC can not be bothered to complete its investigation of JPM precious metals manipulation).


79. We heard that there were large companies dealing metals within the UK and an allegation was made by the MMTA that a company through a subsidiary may be behaving in an anti-competitive manner: on the London Metal Exchange there are four very large companies that own the very warehouses that people deliver metal into, J.P. Morgan is one of them.

They own a company called Henry Bath. They are, therefore, a ring-dealing member of the exchange and they also own the warehouse. That is restrictive. They were also reported, at one point, to have had 50% of the stock of the metal on the London Metal Exchange.[113]

80. We would be concerned if the ownership of metals storage warehouses by a dominant dealer on the London Metals Exchange were to be anti-competitive. We would also be concerned if a dealer who had the resources to own over 50% of stock on the London Metals Exchange impeded the correct functioning of the market.

81. We use this report to bring the alleged activities of large dealers on the London Metals Exchange to the attention of the Office of Fair Trading. We would be concerned if a dealer were undermining the effective functioning of the market and we look for assurance that the market is functioning satisfactorily.

And another big oops for Blythe Masters who apparently has decided to move now officially investigated market manipulation practices to London and away from the CFTC. In the meantime, silver Comex holdings continue to decline and at last check, are flirting with the record low 100 million ounce level. Once can only imagine (literally) what is concurrently happening at the LME and/or LBMA. (But neither of these is currently an issue, supposedly, once again courtesy of our colleagues at the FT).

Regardless, here's silver, which appears poised to resume the trek higher.

h/t Victor


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Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:40 | 1304924 LRC Fan
LRC Fan's picture

Silver, bitchezzz!

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:41 | 1304942 Hammer Time
Hammer Time's picture

Defrauding bitchez...


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:46 | 1304952 Michael Victory
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:02 | 1305014 Texas Gunslinger
Texas Gunslinger's picture

I'm curious, does the above chart reflect the price of physical or paper silver?

If it's the paper price, no one at ZeroHedge should care - right?  Or is this another case where the paper price is marveled at tick by tick on the upside, yet dismissed as insignificant on the downside?




Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:06 | 1305031 strannick
strannick's picture

You guys are right about this guy, with his 'aw shucks, Im curious, couldja plese explain sumptin' metals bashing attitude.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:09 | 1305033 HamyWanger
HamyWanger's picture

Good observation. 

But the contradictions and hypocrisy of silverbugs on this site are endless. Right now I can buy fully allocated physical for just $0.80 over spot, so the whole "physical/paper price divergence" was just a scam. 

We're still waiting for the Comex default announced by tmosley, by the way. 


by tmosley 
on Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:46


I'd give it a 40-50% chance that it will default in the next delivery month.  Add 20% to that chance for each delivery month that passes.

But then, I have always been early on such things.  Which is why I just hold physical.


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:14 | 1305066 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Wow, you waited a whole three weeks.  Rather than, you know, waiting for the next delivery month (ie July), like I said.

lol, "fully allocated".  I bet you're paying storage too.  What a rube.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:21 | 1305097 HamyWanger
HamyWanger's picture

"Wow, you waited a whole three weeks.  Rather than, you know, waiting for the next delivery month (ie July), like I said."

The problem is that you've been announcing an "imminent" Comex default for 12 months now, without interruption. 

"lol, "fully allocated".  I bet you're paying storage too.  What a rube."

Just because some peasants in Montana or Vermont can't find any Silver eagle in their remote local pawnshop does not mean there is a shortage of physical silver. 

You can find .999 silver bars at less than 1 dollar over spot, yes. 


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:24 | 1305155 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Uhh, no, I haven't.  I said it is coming, and that it is possible for it to strike without warning.  It didn't become "imminent" until the start of May.  I only put a watch out for this once before, in 2008.

And sure, you can find some 1000 oz bars out there for less than a dollar over spot.  But you used to be able to get them AT spot.  And as recently as last month they could be had for half of current premiums.

And you didn't answer my question.  What has been happening to COMEX inventories for the last 7 months?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:30 | 1305180 Texas Gunslinger
Texas Gunslinger's picture

tmosley is probably the biggest joke at ZeroHedge.

Here's a guy who portrays himself as an expert on precious metals, yet was caught completely off guard by the CME margin hikes, even though there were 57 hikes on the NYMEX since the beginning of the year.  A true "expert" would understand that margin hikes are a routine practice by the CME, and not part of some goofy, larger conspiracy that happens out of nowhere.

Mosely is great with the conspiracy stuff, but quite short on facts.   


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:31 | 1305196 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Sorry, how was I caught off guard?  I posited that something like that would happen several months before it did, and then identified what was going on a couple of days after it started happening.

The principle thesis remains the same.  Buy physical.  

Failtroll fails again.

Why don't you tell us some more about your local dogfood price, or how your silver dealer is a demigod of some sort.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:47 | 1305278 Texas Gunslinger
Texas Gunslinger's picture

 I posited that something like that would happen several months before it did...

Really?  You have any proof?  Because I find posts that are completely the opposite. 

Here you are predicting that silver would totally rebound back to $49 by the 5/6/11:

A few posts later in the same thread, you promised to leave ZeroHedge forever if silver ever went below $35.

Seems to me that you were caught completely off guard, had no fucking clue what was going on, and fell on your face, hard.  

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:55 | 1305310 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I do:“catast...



Fri, 02/04/2011 - 08:35 | tmosley (Total Score:1)

The paper price is fake.  The sooner it breaks down toward zero (among infinite volatility), the sooner the current system ends due to metal default, and "gold bugs" take over the financial system as physical premiums head toward infinite.


I predicted the rebound PRIOR to FIVE consecutive margin hikes.  With that clear and obvious manipulative action, they made it clear that they intended to keep paper down by any and all means.  The natural result of that was a flight from paper to physical.

As to the leaving ZH, I specifically said PHYSICAL silver had to go below $35 for TWENTY FOUR HOURS.  It never did.  It was further made to a person who then threatened my job via cyberstalking activities.  The $35 was a move up from the previous $20.  I don't see any need to honor the higher number, but maybe I will, if it is ever breached under my terms.

Your "fell on your face" comment leads me to believe that you are actually Red Neck Republicant.  Had to make a new character, eh?  Why don't you fuck off, dipshit?  Nobody wants you here.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:22 | 1305455 Texas Gunslinger
Texas Gunslinger's picture


That's your defense? The paper price is fake?  Another conspiracy comment about paper silver going to zero, which doesn't even address my comment towards you?


Where's your prediction that the CME would hike margins, and that it would crush the silver longs? 

Furthermore, if you're saying that physical silver was never at $35, then you're calling Eric Sprott a liar because Sprott said he could buy all the physical he wanted at spot. Silver has been under $35 for many days since May 12th.  According to Sprott, the paper price is exactly where he's buying, which blasts a fairly large hole through your "paper is fake" garbage. 

All this conspiracy stuff is just a substitute for your lack of true understanding.  





Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:24 | 1305482 Tito Gobbilicious C
Tito Gobbilicious C's picture

Yeah, well...if I was Eric Sprott I could get pretty bitchez to load me up on the spot at spot for spot all day long. But I'm not Sprott, so I gotta pay the preem...and life is like a merrily merrily dream...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:06 | 1305650 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Uhhh, no, that's not my "defense".  That is my proof--ie I was talking about this kind of thing happening a long time ago.  I didn't care, and I don't care to predict the particular paper games they will play to try to knock down the price, because I DON'T CARE.  I want physical silver.  End of story.

Also, nice job totally taking Sprott out of context.  For one thing, Sprott is on record MANY times saying that he has a LOT of trouble finding silver at spot.  He can buy it, because he's moving millions upon millions of dollars into silver, meaning there is none left at that price for anyone else.  The closest we can get is a few COMEX deliverable bars, whos premiums have doubled.  Of course, most people are stuck with smaller products, whos premiums have tripled or worse.

Funny how you accuse me of talking conspiracy as a substitute for understanding when in this very thread you are claiming a conspiracy that was raising silver prices.  Funny that that DEFINITELY was a substitute for understanding, since the topic in this thread is on COPPER, not SILVER.  IE the LME doesn't trade silver futures, you dumb fuck.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 14:11 | 1305952 ZapBranigan
ZapBranigan's picture

Save your breath tmos, Shitslinger is the fakest of the fake and most daily readers know that by now, so just ignore this asinine fuck.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 14:21 | 1306002 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I agree that he is fake, but the argument he made stands on it's own.  If we are unable to refute them, then there is a possibility that we are wrong.

So I will refute these foolish arguments, no matter who posts them.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:21 | 1305462 Tito Gobbilicious C
Tito Gobbilicious C's picture

Wazzamatta Schlinger? Your dick get caught in the slamming door of the price turnaround? Fizz holders could care less about margin hikes. Dumbass.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:35 | 1305810 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Would hafta been an awfully, awfully tiny door jamb...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:15 | 1305673 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

I like to check this site to see what Real People are buying/selling Real Physical Metal for in near Real Time: 

Looks like premiums are running 17% and up.


Hey Tex, where are you buying physical silver at 80 cents over spot?  Link please.  I'm looking to buy more.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:47 | 1305281 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Average premiums (averaged for 50 major sources realtime) for silver did drop just now from $3.60 to $3.20. However this was on an aggressive move up of $1.20 today which is, as we speak, triple testing it's important upward resistance at $36.25.

Blythe just soiled her panties.

Expect the entire sock puppet brigade to become extremely vocal in the next 5 minutes (math man, robotrader, Texas gunslinger, Ning, et al)

You fucking replicants, you'd better get to work or you can kiss your paypal debits goodbye.

Now lets see some slapstick troll comedy...

Wed, 05/25/2011 - 07:35 | 1308319 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

ur still here?...what, ur god hates trolls and assholes too?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:58 | 1305335 in4mayshun
in4mayshun's picture

Whatever happened to the Andrew McGuier fellow? He was supposed to "blow open" the silver short scandal. Is he still alive??? Puss'd out???

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:12 | 1305419 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

It seemed like there was a failed hit put on him. Either that or just a really bad driver rammed him and drove off. The timing was suspicious.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:04 | 1305641 stopthenewworldorder
stopthenewworldorder's picture

he is dealing with various regulatory types in the US who promise the world and then disappear into the shadows

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:04 | 1305642 stopthenewworldorder
stopthenewworldorder's picture

he is dealing with various regulatory types in the US who promise the world and then disappear into the shadows

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 20:26 | 1307322 ViewfromUnderth...
ViewfromUndertheBridge's picture

he is getting on with his life as a precious metals trader in can subscribe to a trade-by-trade service with Andrew through Coghlan Capital

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:39 | 1304934 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Endgame is near. COMEX about to default. They just can't keep covering JPig's big fat greasy ass.
Time to give the sheeple a big show so they think there is such thing as justice.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:07 | 1305006 tmosley
tmosley's picture

The timing of this is interesting, not even a full week after the HKMEx launches.

Makes me think some big players are now seeing the writing on the wall, and they are turning on each other.

This is not the ideal form of default for those owning silver (assuming the regulators involved force the books open and make with the audits, leading to the public revelation that there is much less silver than advertized).  The best way would have been for them to run the ponzi right up to the last second, when the shipments of physical everywhere just suddenly stop as they have run completely out--the equivalent of running at full speed off of a cliff.  This action will likely cause us to hit bottom on a higher escarpment, rather than at the bottom of the valley.  It might even avert a user panic.

We will see.

Edit:  Just realized, the is the LME, not the LBMA.  This is thus about their market corner on copper, not their massive silver short.  Though if their copper hedge is taken from them, that will leave them with problems on their silver short.

Since this investigation is unlikely to touch silver, that means the best case scenario for physical silver holders is still in play. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:10 | 1305035 Rynak
Rynak's picture

That someone is really desperate, already was clear to me, when about one week ago, the telepromted message to the psyops folks here, changed from "buy stocks instead of PMs" to "buy gold instead of silver". Not saying that people should do the opposite.... just saying that for them to convey such a message, shit must be hitting the fan.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:20 | 1305117 HamyWanger
HamyWanger's picture

I'm not a troll. I'm a silver bull. 

And that's why I expose the lies of tmosley and all the "Silver Bear" adepts. 

With allies like them, silver does not need any enemy. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:33 | 1305209 tmosley
tmosley's picture

 I'm a silver bull. 

News to me.  Find me one post by you where you were bullish on silver.

Wed, 05/25/2011 - 11:06 | 1309036 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

I always thought that Hamy Wanger was Harry Wanger's doppelganger. He is opposite man; I've been operating under the assumption that the counterpoint of whatever he says is what we're supposed to take away. With that in mind, all of his posts are bullish on silver.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:54 | 1305317 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

You fooled me, sorry. My bad.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:25 | 1305473 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Nice try replicant bitch

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:11 | 1305063 HamyWanger
HamyWanger's picture

"Endgame is near. COMEX about to default. They just can't keep covering JPig's big fat greasy ass."

I've heard the same blitherings for 7 months... 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:15 | 1305072 tmosley
tmosley's picture

And what has happened to COMEX silver inventories over the last 7 months?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:35 | 1305216 Math Man
Math Man's picture

They were pumped and dumped when the price went up 150%, dumb shit.

Most of it wound up in SLV.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:39 | 1305231 tmosley
tmosley's picture

But you said SLV was flooding the market via redemptions.

Which is it?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:46 | 1305274 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Both. SLV bought 60mm ounces during then run and dumped 30mm+ during the decline. Still over 325mm ounces to sell.... Have fun when it's back below $20, bitchez.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:56 | 1305324 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

At $20 we will have lots of fun, thank you.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:53 | 1305326 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Who bought it?

I'm seeing very little in the physical markets.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:41 | 1305556 Texas Gunslinger
Texas Gunslinger's picture

That's because your perception of the physical market has very little depth. You're focused on retail coin shops, as if the true physical market is reflected by the price and supply at Wilber's Coin Shop in Lubbock.

Most of your comments about the larger market are rooted in conspiracy, which is what people resort to when they don't understand something. The fact that Wilber's Coin Shop is short on maple leaf supply and selling them at $40 means absolutely nothing.

More than anything, you've demonstrated that you're just another typical retail investor, a small fish who truly doesn't understand the ocean around him.




Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:08 | 1305662 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Yeah, I guess APMEX and other gigantic online retailers don't count as part of the market either.  Nor does Ebay.

They don't count because the prices there aren't manipulated.  Only paper markets count.


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:14 | 1305510 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

The top echelons are already in a cannibalistic frenzy.

Just look at DSK.

And now GS -the alpha dog- is about to sodomize JPig.

It was just a matter of time. JPig has always been a mediocre outfit with no chance whatsoever to match GS.  The very best of the quants (IQs over 180) work at GS.  JPig's top brains average an IQ in the low 70s. And JPig paid trolls like MathMan and Texas -Jesus humping- Cumslinger have an IQ around 60. This is just Darwinism in action.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:57 | 1305353 Upswaller
Upswaller's picture

Then get your sorry shit-for-brains ass out of here.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:43 | 1304940 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

When you boil it down, the problem is the investigators. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:45 | 1304947 LRC Fan
LRC Fan's picture

The problem (for them, and I suppose for me too since you can never have enough) is not enough silver, and the retarded fiat money that is shoved down our throats. 

The investigators are similar to the media shills at Bloomberg, MSNBC, CNBC, Fox, or whatever.  They simply parrot the talking points, make it look like they are keeping the proper "checks and balances" and then they get paid off. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:48 | 1304960 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Exactly.  I'd like to send some of ZH's finest to conduct the investigation.

Stipends to be paid in silver...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:49 | 1304980 LRC Fan
LRC Fan's picture

At this point they are reaching a breaking point.  Physical silver is becoming more scarce by the day, pushing them closer to the brink.  The Fed can't boost the Dow anymore without sending gold/oil/silver/corn/wheat/coffee through the roof, and when gas prices touched $4 things fell off a cliff as far as consumption goes.  They appear to be quickly losing control of everything, which is to be expected.  No one can control all the markets at the same time.  Hell, controlling simply one market is impossible long term, how the fuck do they expect to control the currency markets, PMs, energy, soft commodities, stocks, futures, options, CDS, and real estate all at once?  Fucking n00bs. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:54 | 1304966 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]

Croupier: Your winnings, sir.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:58 | 1305001 Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

Great scene, awesome.

Manipulation bitchezz

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:48 | 1305298 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

+1 for the visual, accompanying one of my favorite quotes.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:46 | 1304962 tickhound
tickhound's picture

+ $ payoff

hehe, yep... "Once again, we find no evidence of foul play."

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:56 | 1305345 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

The money or the the hotel maid, your choice.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:41 | 1304943 hugovanderbubble
hugovanderbubble's picture

Short Silver with DSL till 27$


Euro gonna drop fast during next weeks.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:45 | 1304961 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Why would the failing euro cause silver to go down?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:51 | 1304976 hugovanderbubble
hugovanderbubble's picture

its completly tied

Since QE2 Correlation perfect to 0.9-1


Just look CHF


Its all about forex/bonds.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:15 | 1305082 vortex
vortex's picture


Interesting comment as I myself was puzzled by the action in CHF during the past 2 weeks.

Can you please develop what you mean by :


"Just look CHF

Its all about forex/bonds."


Thanks in advance


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:59 | 1305364 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

With the numbers coming out the race to the bottom looks like a tighter contest now.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:30 | 1305496 agent default
agent default's picture

Strong dollar usualy means tight liquidity.  It's a clear risk off signal.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:41 | 1304944 sunnydays
sunnydays's picture

Don't know why JPM had to move from the CFTC watch.  CFTC is in the boat with all the manipulators letting it happen.  CFTC helps the manipulation.  Why would MSM write this article, unless someone is starting to cover their ass. 



Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:45 | 1304946 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Time to move metal manipulation ops to Hong Kong...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:43 | 1304951 hugovanderbubble
hugovanderbubble's picture

Completly Agree Fiat...

HongKong + Singapur New Pirate Brand Offices:)

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:47 | 1304969 silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

JPM has a Bullion facility in Singapore...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:29 | 1305493 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

It's also mutually beneficial. The chinese want hold and silver and JPM needs to keep prices low. It'll be a beautiful relationship, until the silver and gold run out.

Price controls create shortages faster, bitches.

But the bigger question is can Blythe get a fucking salad in hong kong?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:46 | 1304950 Josh Randall
Josh Randall's picture

That rumbling you hear isn't Steve Liesman's stomach sitting in the can at Shoney's, but the growndswell of PM prices about to be liberated

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:44 | 1304955 What_Me_Worry
What_Me_Worry's picture





Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:49 | 1304964 Dolemite
Dolemite's picture

Gold set to stall soon?

Nasdaq and EuroUSD getting weak?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:46 | 1304965 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Uh oh.....the take-down seems to be gathering steam...

Tick tock...


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:51 | 1304971 unky
unky's picture

Look folks,  JPM makes a shitload of money with options. Silver has been above $40 for  quite some time past month, so now they need to bring it a little bit higher that they dont have to pay people who bought put options.

They need to find the perfect price for that which is a little higher in my view (maybe $36 will do it)

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:48 | 1304973 AldoHux_IV
AldoHux_IV's picture

Inquiries and investigations don't mean shit until there's action-- and I don't mean a slap on the wrist.  Anything else is just masturbation.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:48 | 1304974 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Interestingly enough, they've been manipulating them up, not down. Quite bearish, really. That plus the fact that almost all of the increases in PM demand are coming from two countries (India and China) that are tightening monetary policy because of massive inflation problems, spells imminent doom for PMs...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:53 | 1304982 homersimpson
homersimpson's picture

"Interestingly enough, they've been manipulating them up, not down." Yes, I'm sure a gazillion margin increases in a very short time frame is a manipulation up *rolls eyes*


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:13 | 1305059 Math Man
Math Man's picture

How quickly we forget that gold and silver were all you could eat at $700 and $10 an ounce a few short years ago.... And the complaint alleges that they were controlling over half of the warehouse inventories... Which they are now conveniently selling (hence the COMEX inventory declines) now that the prices have moved up multiples from a few short years ago. But hey, keep believing the manipulation has been downward. Fact of the matter is gold and silver markets are both running in production surpluses while they are off loading their inventory to ETFs, ZH speculators, the Chinese and Indians. That game is quickly coming to an end. See you back at $20 and $1000, bitchez. It only costs five bucks to dig it out of the ground.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:14 | 1305081 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Still waiting on that FLOOD of COMEX deliverable bars.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:45 | 1305272 Blorf
Blorf's picture

There are 326 million ounces in SLV alone.  Rubes are once again going to get whipped into a frenzy as the inventory in COMEX drops -- when all looks lost the shorts are going to deliver a giant stash into the warehouse and force delivery on the longs.  At that point the price will promptly collapse as people try to unload their 1000oz bars.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:56 | 1305350 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That's quite a conspiracy theory you've cooked up.

Funny that you don't take into account the fact that if SLV actually has the silver it claims, then redeeming the silver on the open market won't have any net effect on the price.  

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:55 | 1305618 Texas Gunslinger
Texas Gunslinger's picture

When you suggest that the SLV is just a giant fraud, are you also suggesting that you have more depth, insight and knowledge of the silver market than all the billion dollar hedge funds and trillion dollar banks that have SLV in their portfolio?

Do you think Paulson meets with his traders and tells them to short the SLV because some conspiracy wingnut on the internet thinks they can't deliver?

Your claims about the SLV are just pure lunacy.  


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:12 | 1305674 tmosley
tmosley's picture

lol, sure.  Because no-one has EVER claimed to have silver they didn't have before.

No-one has ever been sued for charging storage fees on allocated accounts that were actually empty.  No financial entity ever tried to defend themselves against such accusations by stating that those were standard industry practices.

I've got some Enron stock I'd like to sell you, RNR.

Also, what's with the cowardly shit changing names?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 14:00 | 1305906 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

So Mudslinger is Redneck? There are so many of these clowns it's hard to keep track of them.

New handles but same old shit.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 14:29 | 1306056 tmosley
tmosley's picture

It seems very likely to me.  He left in disgrace.  What better way to try to get revenge than to sit at home like a pathetic loser and document every post made by the "enemy" and then come back, recycle his redneck shtick, and then assault his old enemy, tmos?

Losers like this can't just live their lives.  They must fixate on those who humiliated them and do anything they can to "destroy" them.

Hell, RNR was the FIRST to try to threaten my job (by calling an associate of mine that was listed as Chief Scientist, but is actually retired and suffering from various ailments that prevent him from doing any real work), after I posted a paper on some of the work we were doing in my lab.  It wouldn't surprise me much to see that he formed a goodly portion of the sock puppet brigade himself.

It seems clear that he has lost his job, and has made himself stupid by smoking crack or doing other drugs.  He let it slip that he lives on the beach.  And the sheer stupidity of his posts was something to behold, and they swung wildly from sheer stupidity to ALMOST smart.  The way you would expect someone who is on and off of drugs to act.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:16 | 1305093 Rynak
Rynak's picture

And the shit is everywhere!

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:23 | 1305139 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Yes offloading to 1 billion Indians and 1 billion Chinese.

Meth, I liked you better as robotrader.

Your arguments are weak.

They barely qualify as sentences.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:35 | 1305228 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Unloading inventory to ZH "speculators"? That is just too funny...comparing a couple hundred posters to 2B+ strong China and India?


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:09 | 1305684 stopthenewworldorder
stopthenewworldorder's picture

s-troll on mathman - this 'complaint' as you put it is an LME release about all metals, not PM specific.  Get yr facts straight before you tee off next time.  Who's the doozy now?


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 14:20 | 1305999 fiddler_on_the_roof
fiddler_on_the_roof's picture

I would love Gold less than $1000. I remember you shorted Gold around $1525 - you are break even now. I think it is time for you to get out of that "short Gold" trade.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:52 | 1304986 LRC Fan
LRC Fan's picture

Why would they manipulate them up?  Unlike others I won't auto-junk you, I'll actually try to understand your position on this.  Seems crazy though.  PMs could fall in the short-mid term, but by 2013 at the latest the cat will be outta the bag and gold/silver will be much much higher, if not impossible to get with fiat. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:57 | 1305009 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Meth I liked you better as Ning. You didn't say much which limited the total amount of stupid that poured from your talk orifice.

Now someone is going to have to clean all this up...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:02 | 1305010 tmosley
tmosley's picture

$34 is da top!

$5 to pull out of the ground!

Tha shit is EVERYWHERE!

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:03 | 1305015 lieutenantjohnchard
lieutenantjohnchard's picture

so then you agree that there is manipulation.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:18 | 1305433 Math Man
Math Man's picture

Yes. Upward.

Did you guys miss the parabolic blow out over the last few months?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:47 | 1305480 lieutenantjohnchard
lieutenantjohnchard's picture

no, but you did.

glad to have you on record that there is manipulation. so i would assume if you believe in manipulation that tptb will / would manipulate both ways. i'll assume in advance the answer is yes.


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:04 | 1305018 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Yeah... Its been a 10-year bearish manipulation to the upside.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:15 | 1305073 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

That is a price-less line tickhound. Absolutely priceless.


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:19 | 1305113 tickhound
tickhound's picture

every once in a while, you know.  :)

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:13 | 1305053 InconvenientCou...
InconvenientCounterParty's picture

So what's the fair value for a $1 FRN today?

...and whats the value 1 millisecond after the Fed mentions they are considering "QE2.5-lite" or that the debt ceiling is raised $2+T, or that the U.S. has bipartisan support for more tax cuts?

If you are stumped, ask someone residing in Belarus.






Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:49 | 1304977 AUD
AUD's picture

LME doesn't deal in precious metals, that's the LBMA.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:58 | 1304997 Trillax
Trillax's picture

NAMBLA does PM's? ;)

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:38 | 1305224 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

maybe this is about the copper caper.  china is pissed and won't add more liquidity to EU banks until Dr. Copper gets a check-up?  when the goobermint doesn't know what businesses are doodoooing---that may be the definition of restricive?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:49 | 1305290 A_MacLaren
A_MacLaren's picture

The markets for silver and gold are trading under the inference of "where there's smoke, there fire", if the investigation is truly the cause for the run up.

Depending on who knew what, when, both gold and silver were trading above the closing crimex levels and beginning to surge higher during the Hong Kong market, but really took off once London opened.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:49 | 1304979 homersimpson
homersimpson's picture

Just curious - wouldn't SLV hit zero if the entire world really knew the JPMs of the world really had no silver in their vaults?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:52 | 1304987 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

JP Morgan is interfering with the existing price control regime for metals of the LME.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:56 | 1304989 citrine
Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:54 | 1304994 writingsonthewall
writingsonthewall's picture

My 'commodity insurance' has leapt up 1.66% today alone!

I bet there are many out there wishing they BTFD when it came.


Now it's off to the moon - the paper currency machine goes on - rumour has it that it's going to be called QE 2.5 - so we don't worry the sheep.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:58 | 1304998 MrFriskles
MrFriskles's picture

Was going to finish solidifying my position and spread out buying 70 g's worth (approx 1/5 of my total fiat) of silver, better to buy it all at once very soon? Little early to tell if this is the "pop" but could very easily be, no?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:21 | 1305106 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Summer's going to be atypical for the metals (i.e. They're going higher, not sideways). Too much bad news is coming due all at once. Everyone's kicking the can and praying they get two months out of it (two months seems to be the optimistic number for every crisis we have going). Yes, if only the can will roll forward two lousy fucking months, then we could all enjoy summer at the pool, and then come back refreshed, ready to deal with the end of the world as we know it.

But that now seems optimistic.

So I wouldnt wait too long. Maybe split into portions and do cost averaging.

If Ben Bernanke mentions transitory coffee price increases, all bets are off (expect a doubling of PM prices in 30-45 minutes).

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 10:59 | 1304999 Spartan
Spartan's picture

This is referring to Base Metals....

Investment Banks are directly financing the commodity hedge funds here, they provide them dirt cheap financing for warehousing inventory in return for hedging/prop flows. Overall it just ties up large sums of money in inventory most of which is kept "off-warrant" so the general public does not know it exists helping to lift prices. If/when the cheap financing bubble pops the market will be dumped with metal, in particular Aluminium.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:10 | 1305396 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

+1 Good catch Spartan. It's hard to keep track of exactly which scam we are talking about sometimes.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 14:01 | 1305894 A_MacLaren
A_MacLaren's picture

It ALL traces back to the Debt-Based Fiat Money scam.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:37 | 1305807 stopthenewworldorder
stopthenewworldorder's picture

i wondered where my helmet had got to

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:13 | 1305058 Catullus
Catullus's picture

That forced divestment of the RBS Sempra doesn't look so intelligent now, does it? The UK government is Investigating its own incompetence here. Why did they approve the sale of the european commodities desk to JPMorgan if it was going to result in monopolistic market structure?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:11 | 1305061 downwiththebanks
downwiththebanks's picture

More shadow boxing.  

Is William Daley going to be arrested?

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:16 | 1305076 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

SLV to $60!

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:24 | 1305158 Caveman93
Caveman93's picture

Wait for it...wait for it...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:28 | 1305183 Problem Is
Problem Is's picture

"J.P. Morgan... are, therefore, a ring-dealing member of the exchange and they also own the warehouse. That is restrictive."

JPM also owns regulators and politicians... in particular Barry Soetoro... which is also restrictive...

Jamie & Lloyd
Amerika's shoe shine boys...

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:28 | 1305189 lunaticfringe
lunaticfringe's picture

On every silver thread, some diphit always talks about 5 dollar out of the ground silver. If you can find one mining operation anywhere in the world- that can extract silver out of the ground minus overhead and expenses for 5 bucks an oz., please name them.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:55 | 1305321 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

I can do that!  Send me $500 right now, and I will post a video of myself digging 100 oz. of silver out of the ground.

Better yet!  For that price, I will dig up not ore but actual nuggets of 90% silver, 10% copper alloy.  Which will also be in the exact size and shape of 1921 Peace dollars.

Please note that you cannot have the silver for that price.  You can only see me dig it up.  Offer void where prohibited.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:04 | 1305384 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Most of the time this is one of the sock puppet brigade, a group of paid trolls whose job is to spread anti-PM FUD and talk up the dollar (part of the strong dollar policy no doubt). The sock puppet brigade consists of a colorful rotation of alter egos which are all likely the same person, operating out of his mom's basement, for $10/hr, posting logic free drivel to ZH. Current sock puppet replicants include hamywanger, texasgunslinger, robotrader, Ning, the list goes on (I notice robo and Ning have been rather scarce as of late).

The rest of the time it's a real person being sarcastic. Anything that includes "5 bucks" is a reference to this "golden nugget of wisdom."

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:21 | 1305716 stopthenewworldorder
stopthenewworldorder's picture

depends on whether you include base metal credits.  if so there are plenty i could name you...incidentally i am far from a troll and aggressively long, just stating the facts

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:36 | 1305801 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That is exactly the point.  The $5 figure assumes the producer is selling a LOT of base metal.  This means they CAN'T ramp up production.  Not unless the price in silver rises enough to offset the money they lose by flooding the market with base metals.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:41 | 1305825 stopthenewworldorder
stopthenewworldorder's picture

sorry tmosley but i cant let that ride - base metals or gold are always associated with silver so you cant avoid credits and i can assure you there are companies making a tidy profit on lead in particular.  if you do your homework you will find a company who can and is ramping up production, are making a profit on base metals and are producing silver as a result at around 8 dollars negative.  because of how silver is mined the whole $5 argument is wholly immaterial to the story and is just troll-fodder, not worth our time. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 13:48 | 1305844 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I'm not saying you disregard base metals.  I'm saying that due to the tie that binds Ag and base metal production, you have to increase production of both at the same time.  This means that the price of silver (or base metals) would have to rise high enough to drag production of the other along.  If it is silver dragging along base metal production, then you are talking a price well in the hundreds of dollars, if not higher.

The price doubled in 2010, yet production rose a mere 2.5%.  That should tell you something.  Of course, silver companies will try to ramp up production, but the dynamics I have described are in play.  As they increase production, their costs increase DRAMATICALLY as the market is flooded with base metals, and thus base metal prices fall.

Also, NEVER let anything that is wrong go, no matter what "side" you are on.  I appreciate you for not letting it go, as it gives us both an opportunity to learn.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 16:09 | 1306514 stopthenewworldorder
stopthenewworldorder's picture

The kind of silver company that would have the problem you describe is relatively rare.  an obvious example would be fresnillo (penoles) but the scale of the zinc and lead markets are that much bigger so i think you are overstating when talking about flooding the market.  Anyway, obviously what you want is grade grade grade in this scenario...there are a few select producers and near-term producers who qualify and the stock i mentioned earlier will also be a huge winner because it is in virgin vein swarm territory. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 17:16 | 1306735 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I don't know of any that AREN'T bound by such things.  Clearly this is the case throughout the industry, or the average production cost would be much closer to the market value.  That is, unless they are employing creative accounting, of course.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 14:51 | 1306174 plata pura
plata pura's picture

hecla of the states united in confederacy.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 16:10 | 1306518 stopthenewworldorder
stopthenewworldorder's picture

hecla is a non-runner imo

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:29 | 1305193 uno
uno's picture

look for the Crimex to come to the morgues defense and raise margins 5 more times.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:35 | 1305225 terryfuckwit
terryfuckwit's picture

please believe me, all the following uk regulatory bodies, FOS,FSA,OFT, trading standards, etc were all sent to the dentist a loong long time ago to have all their teeth removed

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:34 | 1305541 Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Yes but I'm thinking this will take margins to 100% to be effective. Just a guess based on the percentage of margin removed this last hike. A similar percentage gets you to about 50%, at which point you may as. Well go all in.

If your a long spec you're either totally stupid, or very well capitalized (why would you risk the next margin hike). So there's a chance the hike will not be effective. Either way we'll find out soon.

If you check out the silver chart you can see there is/was a furious battle to keep it below $36.25 (the desperation is getting obvious).

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 11:45 | 1305271 terryfuckwit
terryfuckwit's picture

however if it was a sign that they are wary of the market itself blowing the lid off all this then it may be a good sign.. ie they are tryng to be seen as taking a position.. bla...


Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:33 | 1305517 tradewithdave
tradewithdave's picture

A silver eagle in the hand beats two in the comex, at least according to the latest strategery report from inside Buckingham Palace.

Dave Harrison



Tue, 05/24/2011 - 12:49 | 1305592 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Given enough rope, they'll hang themselves.  And it looks like the noose is tightening. 

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 14:07 | 1305929 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Excellent article.  It is hard to beat Jeff Nielson when it comes to silver commentary.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 14:28 | 1305975 luk427
luk427's picture

Instead of bashing heads with the trolls, I will continue to acquire physical every opportunity I get. The way I look at it Silver is on sale right now. Bix Weir states at the end of his articles "May the Road you choose be the Right Road". Here is another article I found when looking for rare earth elements to invest in and concluded by owning physical silver I was already in rare earth's.

Tue, 05/24/2011 - 18:25 | 1306959 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Let's keep those armored trucks rolling and see how long Comex can fill 'em.

Wed, 05/25/2011 - 01:35 | 1308008 suckerfishzilla
suckerfishzilla's picture

Despite the fixing manipulation dead weight the trolls and despite the efforts of the Central Banks to phase in their next phase of tyranny with an honest money system based on the gold standard despite the recent paper raid on the comex Gold is up 15% for the year and Silver is up 37% for the year at this juncture.  Move towards the light.

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