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Ireland Gets €85 Billion, As ECB-Germany Schism Becomes Acute
From RTE "The EU and the IMF will offer the Government an €85bn facility, which can be used to recapitalise the banks and fund the public finances. The EU and the IMF will offer the Government an €85bn facility, which can be used to recapitalise the banks and fund the public finances. The package would see the level of capital in the Irish banks being increased from eight to 12% in a move to bolster confidence of depositors in the financial system." This could well be too little, too late. The bank run has already started. And just to confirm that the schism between the ECB and Germany is now likely insourmountable, Nowotny said that he is 'irritated' with Merkel's remarks on the serious situation for EUR. Why, of course Ewald- nobody wants to hear the sad truth that you will be unemployed within a year.
More from RTE:
The International Monetary Fund earlier said talks between it and Ireland were moving forward quickly, but it was up to the Irish Government to make the necessary political decisions.
The IMF's First Deputy Managing Director, John Lipsky, made the comment in New York in response to questions by reporters about the impact on the negotiations of growing political instability in Ireland.
Mr Lipsky said the IMF's work in Ireland was technical, not political.
EU Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said it is essential that Ireland passes the Budget in the timeline foreseen, adding this would be best done sooner than later.
The Commissioner was speaking following a confidential briefing with Irish MEPs at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, which lasted for just over an hour.
Mr Rehn said every day that is lost increases uncertainty and increases the economic and social cost.
He added that Ireland needs to adopt the Budget, get it out of the way and move on.
Mr Rehn also said that while he did not have a position on domestic politics, political stability is important.
However Socialist Party MEP Joe Higgins walked out of the meeting after just two minutes.
Mr Higgins said that the information was only being shared on the basis it was confidential and would not be divulged. He said not sharing the information would be a betrayal.
For many of the MEPs at the meeting the key issue was keeping Ireland's 12.5% corporate tax rate off the table.
Minister for Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Innovation Batt O'Keeffe told the Dáil that Ireland's corporation tax of 12.5% is critical, and is but one of a number of factors that makes Ireland attractive to multinational companies.
He was speaking this evening on a Fine Gael Private Members' Motion on the need to defend Ireland's corporation tax rate.
Mr O'Keeffe also said a move away from the existing corporation tax rate would have a significant negative effect on existing and potential investments.
Meanwhile, Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund Dominique Strauss-Kahn was commenting on Ireland and Greece.
Speaking during a Swiss Television interview Mr Strauss-Kahn's message was: 'We must tighten our belts.'
Referring to the crisis in Ireland and Greece he said: 'The idea that you may live long beyond his means is a crazy idea, even if the causes are different in these two countries.'
The director of the IMF estimates that these countries 'in one way or another we have to tighten their belts to get back to something that is bearable ... Those who are in a weak position are those who get in trouble first.
'That is why we need to preserve as much as possible social spending. We cannot continue like this.
'The solidarity of European countries should avoid the collapse of some states, but it requires rather drastic economic measures, and once again it will be the weakest countries that will suffer most', he said.
Elsewhere, a now panicking Europe tries to go for broke with a constantly (mis)firing bullshit crapapult:
- ECB's Nowotny says Portugal not comparable to Ireland and Greece in economic terms
- It is individual European states which are in danger, not the EUR
- 'Irritated' with Merkel's remarks on serious situation for EUR
Bullshit translation: The countdown to the end of Europe has begun.
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What happened to the other 815 bil ? Did they get a rainbow and a map for the reminder ?
The EU drinks it's way to sobriety.
we should have hope then
"Your rope" is tying itself into a noose!
Will the Yanks yank?
I believe people are misinterpreting what is happening in Europe. A bloodless coup is happening right under everyone's nose as county after country looses its sovereignty.
They are falling like dominos. We are witnessing the birth of a super state.
It's not too late for an exorcism.
thank you JB,
simply spot-on and nobody seems to see the elephant in the room.
unbelievable.
i was hoping the irish had the balls their reputation would have indicated. a simple "fock-off" would have been great.
it might even have gotten me back into the stock market. heh.
Ireland is now the IMF's biyaaatch!
Why do they keep dragging this bullshit onwards forever?
It should be clear as day that the comments by all of the EU, Sovereign, IMF, and ECB officials are in direct contradiction with both the situation on the ground and the way the market is pricing it in.
It is impossible to invest money when there are puppeteers dangling the cards.
If the S&P were at 900, then people can make realistic estimates about the valuation of companies, and direct money towards the "efficient" economy.
With valuations and debt so high, all folks can do is play the currency/central bank game.
This only impedes markets, and will indeterminably stigmatize the markets for years (decades perhaps) to come.
Back in the day thieves used to be branded, if they were lucky enough to not be hanged.
Heads stood on pikes outside of town, so if you were new to town you quickly gained respect for the local rules.
There's a good case to be made for a return to 'simpler' times. Of course, usury was illegal back then, too! Want to lend someone money at credit card or payday loan or IMF rates? Prepare to be run out of town!
This doesn't end until there is justice.
http://psychonews.site90.net
PsychoNews: Exposing the Oligarchy, one Psycho at a time.
"Why do they keep dragging this bullshit onwards forever?"
I agree with all of your comments, IMHO there can be no normalization under the current Ponzi structure. They are playing for the end-game. A great post postulated a week or so ago that the CB's were competing for being the last to default, as this might allow the last one standing to continue in power.
But, they can't fix it. They can't put Humpty-Dumpty back together again. There is no amount of austerity that would allow them to balance their budgets and repay debts. They can't blow another bubble.
Default is the only eventual option, and no one wants to be the first to go.
A lot of people still want to believe.
Default is not the only eventual option because we have been defaulting on the debt for decades now. Defaulting is permanent. And nobody indeed wants to end it.
You cant play this card as it was already played.
When a debt cannot be repaid, people are just striving to maintain their defaulting scheme.
Take a guy named Pal. Pal goes and borrows $100, never intents to pay them back. As soon as he has them, Pal says he wont pay them back. What believers want to see as defaulting.
Now Pal is going in a classical Ponzi. He finds another guy to borrow $200 so he can pay the first lender back, in order to maintain his credibility and extend his scheme.
Yet, in this pattern, Pal has been defaulting on the debt from the very first second. At no time, he provides a counter-value to support the debt scheme.
Now Pal loves life and uses his scheme to afford non tradeable items, nights in a high standing hotels, eating at fancy restaurants, touring the Bahamas etc...
When Pal is forced to end his permanent defaulting scheme, there is nothing to reposs (save maybe buying the story of Pal's life to market it as a tradable item)
The point is that at no time, Pal puts on the table something of similar value that could be bought. He permanently defaults and finds ways to maintain the default scheme.
Ending the permanent default scheme means ending the grand life. And indeed nobody wants that.
The #1 rule of beaureaucrats and politicians it extend and pretend. As long as you keep the BS going, you stand a chance, however slim, of getting re-elected. The guy who says the current policies have failed gets blamed for them and can kiss his career goodbye. It is the sad truth of democracy that the representatives have an enormous incentive to follow failed policies in order to keep their jobs. Look at Ben. Sure he could admit tomorrow that QE is a failure and Keynesianism is ludicrous, but then he'd be out of a job. Better to choose the lesser evil and destroy the planet than admit failure.
The looting is nearly complete. Just hang in there for a little longer.
Got gold?
They will burn through this money quickly then need more.
Whats the rate of interest ?
Are you sitting down?
It may be best to move the bodies before the water rises.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZlKc9sZGHU
7% for 10 year money? 10 years is the doubling time for 7% interest, so did Ireland effectively just double their debt over the next 10 years by agreeing to this? Or am I missing something? How on earth is this meant to help anyone except those recieving the interest payments.
I'm starting to question the debt is wealth scenario.
Too Funny!!! LOL!!!!
Ah, I see you found your way out of the Ozone! :>D
not like the Irish to let someone, let alone their own government bend the over and let the bankers shove it up their ass once again...extremeley disappointing...unless that is the IRA makes good on their "fair game" proclaimation....
The government has been letting the Irish banks run wild for decades, I'm afraid. Here's a mass-market paperback from 2006. (The little bird in the top left is the Allied Irish Banks logo.) As a side note, you can see that no-one can say they weren't warned - especially the sophisticated investors.
IRA are not known for making idle threats...
I just love the language used in high finance. I think I need to grab WB7 and put up an article on this subject. The last time I was in a "facility", I was strip searched and then locked up for the night.
Luckily I was still tripping and didn't give a shit. The next morning was a bitch though.
took me three days...
Damn CD, you got double junked for proposing another collaboration with William. Now you gotta do it. Hitting a nerve perhaps?
Dagny, you're on to something here.
-JG
IRE was blowtorched for a 23% loss on world record volume.
Now the bank is in flames....
Speaking of bargain Irish property...
sSo much for stress tests! Guess that was a farce - oh well at least it wasn't insider trading.
Thus in 2010 the era of the bail out came to an end. First corporate and then it was sovereign.
You know it's over when debtor PIIGS lend money to other PIIGS that all really came from two lenders, Germany and IMF (US). And where did they get their money? From future US taxpayers. I believe we are now raiding and completely spending the tax revenues from the year 2020.
The anchor of debt will soon grind the economic ship (and poor Harry Wanger's dreams of profiting on American moral hazard) to an end. Watch Euro/$ to cnfm Euro is dead.
So, if the World Economy (in this case, the Euro) collapses and J6P is too busy watching the NFL to notice, is there a riot?
Merkel - Ferkel!
in English
Merkel - Piglet
Synchronicity, PIG states in the rhyme, isn't she lovely, isn't she pretty, day by day?... What a lovely Piggy Wonder!
"It is individual European states which are in danger, not the EUR"
This is a classic!!
"It is the individual cells that are being effected by the cancer, not the human body!"
Amen. The best was the EU's ex-president Prodi who said back in March that Greece's problems are contained and he is not worried anything will spread to any other EU member and the EU is so strong, the EU is so wonderful etc etc etc big pile of bullshit! LMAO!
I'm laughing all the way to the bank because of these scumbags! They're still scumbags though...
Subprime was 'contained' as well and didn't spread beyond MBSs.
MBSs were found on every BS at every bank? Oh.... wait... we didn't know that.
0.o
So, what's up with Merkel's "serious situation" rumblings: bringing up the plans for bondholder haircuts in 2013 again while muttering not wanting further PIIGS bailouts? Is she just trying to pander to German voters with her young-Augustine act ("give me chastity, Lord, but not yet!") while pushing the Irish package through - or is she actually trying to sabotage indirectly?
it's "Edvard Munch" time...
The latter seems unlikely, since she had DB CEO Ackermann (the hero of Greece) perched on her knee [video] at the ECOFIN meeting that set up the "bailout" talks. But who knows?
did I hear him say "Rumpelstiltskin"? i thought that was a no, no?
Act. Naturally the voters don't want to be on the hook for the rest of Europe. She will of course support all bailouts like any good head of state, but she would also like to stay in power. So she has to give lip service to some future haircuts for bondholders and hope she can hang on. It's like in the states, they must give the voters some lie to hold on to.
Google latest news: Oglaigh na hEireann
Wait a minute. Is that guy's comment correct? The EU/IMF is offering the Irish 7% money for 10 yr paper?
7%!?????
There are multiple rumoured indirect confirmations, so it must be true. ;) Moreover, does the EU really expect Ireland to accept a loan at that rate (never mind pay it off)? Is this just a negotiating tactic to get at the Irish corp. tax rate? (Could they actually want Ireland to default, and so to take the heat for blowing up Europe's banks? Surely not...)
7% is a good rate for 10yr guranteed money. 50yr average for American 10yr T's is 5.5%.
No way Ireland should take it but no reason anyone would offer them money for nothing. I believe the intent is to ween Ireland off debt and onto austerity. Nothing works better than 7% interest when you have a negative GDP.
FUGLY.
But that must be before inflation, yes? Regardless, unless Eurozone inflation is going to let rip over the near- and medium-term future (do they know something we don't?) then 7% will lead to exploding debt followed by default. As to why any country might want to give Ireland money for nothing (for whatever value of 'nothing') - one good reason is so that Ireland can keep handing it on to their banks, and then pay them back for the privilege.
Over the past 50yrs, the US Treasury has paid an average of 5.5% on it's 10yr bonds. Inflation has ranged wildly over this period but the safest AAA rated security on the earth during this period paid 5.5% for 10yr notes...so does it now make sense regardless of inflation that a country and economic zone (and planet at this point) should be loaned money below that which was the safest? Particularly when you factor in the inflationary risks existing due to the Fed's easy money policies.
7% is a good rate. Still say Ireland should default instead but complaining about 7% given Ireland's situation is ludicrous.
I remember that Max K stated that the Lehman collapse was necessary to protect the value of the dollar in the short term as all those dollars were destroyed and increased the value of the remaining units.
Could the ECB be planning a similar deposit destroying amputation on a entire country?
Here's a good one:
http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/FinancialStatement.aspx
Check the forth line down in the table of contents: Why borrowing more is not the answer.
How soon we forget.
Some have argued we should continue to borrow and wait for the economy to grow again before tackling the budget deficit. There are three reasons why this is not a viable proposition.
In our everyday lives we do not borrow to pay for our household bills. We cut back and seek to live within our means.
The same strictures apply at national level. Borrowing hundreds of millions a week to pay for day to day spending is just not on. Stabilising the deficit is the next key milestone in our plan to deliver economic recovery for this country.
Then again, there's a lot to be said for the idea that this is a PR stunt to make a Greece-equivalent 5% rate seem sane and generous.
7% is a great rate. My credit card rate is 8% and I'm in a much-much better shape financially than Ireland is (pretty easy feat, I'll give you that). Now given that the Irish bailout is just as nonsecured as my credit card line is... fuck yeah, it's a great rate.
SPX
http://99ercharts.blogspot.com/2010/11/spx_5276.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/99er-charts
I know ZH is filled with gold guys, and I know you all have your rationales, but for God's sake don't delude yourselves.
Repeat after me: There will be no defaults. There will NEVER be a default. It won't be allowed. It *can't* be allowed in a swap filled world.
They will print and bail out forever and gold's victory will be forever postponed. It HAS to be this way. It's just like US real estate. All that property value that was mortgaged in Ireland IS GONE. Absorb that. IT'S GONE. That money is gone. Printing is replacement in this instance. Not dilutive. Replacement.
They are replacing from external source what disappeared internally, and enslaving the Irish in the process. The Irish HAVE to do this. They can't create their own currency and default because they are oil importers. No one would accept their non exchangable Irish currency for oil.
Never ever forget this. Oil is EVERYTHING. It is civilization's lifeblood. You have to be able to pay for it as your top priority of existance. It's priced in dollars and almost certainly always will be.
Ireland will not default. Ever. Neither will anyone else. Printing will go on until oil depletion starves everyone. Soon.
Too many definitive statements.
Not that I'm in anyway an expert, but what if they default are blacklisted etc but China says use our RMB to pay for oil from us.
What do you do, ban China from importing oil?
I don't understand what you imagine. You're saying that China will bailout Ireland? Why? They have no bank swap exposure.
Someone has to give them money that can become dollars to pay for oil. An invented Irish currency won't do that. So the default and create a currency approach will never happen.
Your general statement contains too many definitive statements. To categorically say that if they default they can't buy oil, so NO DEFAULTS EVER is unrealistic.
It takes one country to acknowledge whatever new currency might be used, China in this example, and to decide to let them exchange for RMB and then switch those RMB for $$.
I'm also sure I read about RMB being used for the settlement of an international deal between Russia and China.
Let's say Spain default. Do you honestly see Spain being starved of oil and allowed to rot away? Honestly?
Spain probably won't default, they probably will take the bail out. But what if they have a revolution and a hard line government who does not want the IMF and austerity and takes control and does default?
Might sound ridiculous right now but I'm sure in 2008 the idea of the Euro collapse and widespread civil unrest all over Europe was being looked upon as far fetched.
You're discounting too many things. You don't have a crystal ball. I'm sure in 1914 the end of the centuries old Romanov, Habsburg and Hohenzollern dynasties would've been looked upon as impossible, but it happened. And it happened within 4 years.
Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland also have in common a populace who (mainly for the Med countries) are used to government largesse, and do get very angry and protest. So yes civil unrest.
No, you're not following it. I don't care if they go through an intermediary to get to dollars to get to oil. Oil is all that matters. It can be rubles or baht or anything, but it has to get to oil at some point, and who is going to just give them money to do that?
>>
et's say Spain default. Do you honestly see Spain being starved of oil and allowed to rot away? Honestly?
>
What does that mean? Of course they won't rot. They will flee to their borders and become refugees elsewhere. Some humanitarian effort might be raised to bring food to the populace, but it's not going to be a gift to the Spanish govt. It's not going to be a loan, either. Humanitarian efforts will bypass money. They will ship in food until the refugees can be moved elsewhere.
No one is going to GIVE money to these people in the amount of billions for years on end. It's not going to happen. They will be printed some loans and their budget will be dictated.
It's what it always has been. The one thing . . . the ONLY thing . . . you cannot print in this insanity is oil. There is no replacement. There is no alternative.
Oil production cost spiking is what is killing everything, and soon it will be all of us.
Nonsense. China could finance them to buy Russian, Iranian, Venezuelan oil against Irish IOUs (a revived Punt). China is already dabbling in Greece and Italy ... others will follow.
That's the point. China can start settling oil deals in RMB with Venezuela and Iran as examples. And they already are doing deals with Russia in their own currencies.
China just say fine we will swap your currency for RMB, any nation who defaults and is blocked from exchanging for dollars can use the RMB.
Why would they do that? Why not, the Irish currency would be just as invented as the Euro is, and probably backed by less insane policies.
What happens if Ireland, Greece, Italy are all doing this? China and Russia settling deals in their own currencies, if Iran decides to do the same? Venezuela has no love for the US, nor do the Brazilians after QE2, the Germans called the US clueless. What does the US do? Invade China?
This is all theoretical, but so is you assertion that the entire World would refuse to take Irish currency.
Oh and the peak oil views are valid of course.
Crapault on that.
Clearly you don't know all the rationals. I'm betting that the bailouts will continue, that's why I have gold! If I thought for a moment there would be anything resembling sanity and fiscal responsibility I would be forced to rethink my PM position. Infinite bailouts are good for PMs. Infinite bailouts means by default there will be money printing, which dilutes the existing money. I'm just trying to hold onto purchasing power here.
The gold "victory" is after the meltdown of fiat being shoveled infinitely to cover ever more insane bets and ever increasing moral hazard, is that it will hold it's value better then the flaming fiat.
Exactly.
Why would holders of PM's need a country to default in order to realize value?
And, weren't there other options besides 1)Accept insane EU, IMF "rescue" that adds impossible to repay debt onto Irish gov't books or 2) Irish gov't defaults.
Couldn't they have done something about taking over their banks?
No. That's a bank default and triggers the swaps.
They don't care about UK and Germany banks holding the swaps, But They Have To Have Oil and they have to pay for it in acceptable currency. Creating their own doesn't qualify.
There won't be any defaults. This goes on until oil's depletion kills us all, and that won't be long.
I am in favor of gold because of its scarcity, and - why ask why? - value as money for thousands of years. But since the collapse of the London Gold Pool and Bretton Woods, we are in uncharted waters where anything is possible, such as printing as a replacement for vaporized asset value. The problem is not that this is impossible - it clearly is happening - but that it is impossible to maintain a replacement dynamic with the timeliness required in the astronomically complex system that is international finance. The central problem with fiat-as-replacement, in my view, is related to Hayek's concept of the "fatal conceit". In other words, neither The Bernank nor Trichet can replicate and supplant, from their top-down, Gosplan perspective, the billions of bottom-up individual economic decisions that comprise an optimal financial infrastructure. Gold is real, solid, scarce and not derivative of any other asset. When fiat-as-replacement fails, gold will assume a role in international finance. Big question is when. I think your point about oil is important. And if oil is not everything, then at least it is a fundamental economic factor, if not the factor. Thanks for the good food for thought.
I tend to not follow in gold discussions anymore for obvious reasons (unless you want to keep buying the shiny metal at cyclical highs:)) but i will say this. Gold is scarce only because you know its a non-renewable. And that's fine, i have no problem with that argument.
On that same train of thought however, neither is oil. And you can very well see the cycles oil has been in over the last century!
Buying gold at $1400/oz is like buying oil at or near the $130s. Yes it might get to another short-term high, but it can't go much beyond that. Not without an actual default of a sovereign - something which, as we are seeing in today's world, no government (entity or group) will allow to happen.
It's entirely possible that gold will drop when a sovereign defaults. Disclaimer: long gold.
YM
http://99ercharts.blogspot.com/2010/11/ym_23.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/99er-charts
Hambone|| Welcome to the 7% growth rule model vs. simple arithmetic.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6A1FD147A45EF50D
My deepest condolences for the people of Ireland- you are now officially slaves to the PTB.
EFFF Nowotny and the BULLSHIT lying motherf&&ers of the EU- they're only trying to save their own asses! Wait til next month MFers!
I agree with King of Simpletons, where is the other 815 billion (at least). I'll post two links, but Ireland borrowers and financial institutions owe foreign banks 1.2 trillion dollars (and this was back in 2008, no telling how high it is now). And we are supposed to believe that this 85 billion euro solution is going to solve this, no way. There is no way that a country of almost 5 million people (less than Greece's 10 million, but they have collateral in a sense their 1400 islands which only 227 of them are inhabited by people). Can get enough tax revenue to service just the interest on the debt let alone the principal (thats even if they take 100% of the tax revenue). This whole game is falling apart and Germany knows it. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to go back to their own currency and be damned the rest of the EU countries who used Germany and France and a few of the other rich countries to subsidize their economies. Hell Greece lied at every turn to get into the EU and even during the financial mess they are in. But not Ireland, they won't lie or obfuscate the issue.
That money being bantered around is just to buy some time nothing more.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1208/breaking52.html
http://www.politics.ie/economy/38644-irelands-1-2-trillion-dollar-private-debt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece#Geography
Not about the "normal" public finances, but there's been lots of ... obfuscation by and about our banks. But everyone ... obfuscates about their banks, so that's okay, right?
RTE is a peice of EU Pravda shit.
They have lied to the people for years.
The only reason you hear anything now is that the game is up.
Ireland cannot possibly pay these debts. The Euro is dead.
Can you elaborate on 'EU Pravda shit'?
In certian slovak languages, 'pravda' = truth. Hence my questioning..
As they used to say in the days of the Soviet Union, "There's no Pravda in Isvetsia, and no Isvetsia in Pravda."
Soviet Union = Illegitimate Oligharchic Rule = European Union
Crash,
Will you keep reciting the mantra "oil will always be priced in dollars" when the only payment for oil the Arabs will accept from America will be bushels of wheat or the deed to Yellowstone?
Just because American foreign debt is massive, its creditors WILL cut it loose someday.
Some of us are just preparing for the inevitable.
No, you're missing the point.
THE POINT IS IRELAND HAS TO HAVE OIL. It doesn't matter if it's priced in rubles. Someone would have to accept the imaginary new Irish currency For Oil. The intermediate steps don't matter.
They won't default. No one ever will. No one is going to GIVE them oil. They have to pay with it in something exchangeable and the new, imaginary Irish currency won't be.
Done. No defaults.
I understand that a lot of Irish women are redheads...
Giggity
We've got 180,000 tons of diplomacy on their necks.
The Arabs will take what we tell them to take . . . and like it.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/where.htm
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/the-daily-cartoon-760940.html?ino=2
Question - has Merkel deliberately provoked this crisis to increase German power in Europe?
If the Euro survives it will be because they create all the currently missing central mechanisms for a federal Europe. Germany will dominate that.
If the Euro falls apart - there will be a cluster of industrialised productive countries - centred on Germany.
Heads she wins. Tails she wins. Everyone else suffers.
4th Reich imminent?
Bingo. Perspicacious and parsimonious.
Most Americans don't get Europe. They cannot wrap their collective minds around a multi-national union that has no common language, no common national anthem and no common national holiday with barbeque and fireworks.
But c'est la vie mes amis Americains, meine lieben amerikanischen Freunde, mis estimados amigos americanos.. Europe is what it is.
Europe is the birthplace of modern civilisation, modern technology, modern societal evolution.
If Europe goes to hell in a handbasket, the rest of the world is not far behind. If the mother ship of all relevant cultural achievement and societal blueprint ceases to be, human life on this planet may as well end.
Europe is in a constant state of perpetual cultural growth, increased levels of sophistication and ever greater levels of communal experience.
The model for modern society is Europe. The Euro is the model single currency of nations that left their silly struggle for national identity on the many battle fields.
There will be a stronger and more unified Europe than ever in decades to come.
Europeans aren't living in fear and Europeans aren't paranoid. Big difference.
No. All of this is BS. Europe is a continent which has existed largely in a state of war for the past 500 years. There is no 'european understanding' - each country has a widely different culture. Belgium is a construct threatening to pull itself apart (Flemish v Walloons); Spain is threatening to pull itself apart (Catalonian independence); Ireland has only recently got over the whole 'troubles' thing; most other countries are quite happy detesting their neighbours.
But that's where the EEC and EU have succeeded. 60 years without a brutal war...time was when the continent couldn't go 60 days without a war. Hard to admit, but Europe is the only thing holding western civilization together. I love the US, but lets face it, it doesn't put any stock in culture, philosophy or self-discipline. 'Jersey Shore' ain't culture....makes Benny Hill look like Plato.
By your username (and german sentence in your post) i take it you are Deutsche.
Now, most people from North America have some sort of EU ancestry, myself included. I am proud of what individual European countries have accomplished (Germany included, minus the whole 2 wars things..) but, besides a single currency and no barriers for jobs & trade, the EU itself has not brought a whole lot of 'increase' to society as a whole.
Being proud is fine, but don't be so biased so as to not see the major structural problems of the union. Everything is great in Germany (and i'd argue, best its been in years) but just look to your neighbors to the West and South and you'll notice your brethren do not share the same sense of accomplishment for the EU.
walkure - i hugely respect and appreciate your contributions here, especially the oft-justified euro-centric digs at our silly government - especially as of late.
and while i (waspy-ish american), appreciate the european shoulders on which we were birthed (but have generally diverged, sometimes improved), i submit that persia (iran) is probably more likely the birthplace of civilization. or egypt, perhaps.
there are a lot of sharp folks out there, race/culture not-withstanding.
re: the rest of your points in that post, i would never bet on the thesis that "because we've never really gotten along, and we have nothing in common (except borders), and are very used to fighting each other, therefore we're more likely to get along best someday."
all large cultures are too dysfunctional to make such a bold prediction viable. humans simply don't scale very well, or operate very well within the artificial romanticized constraints they try to impose on themselves/each-other.
the biggest/smartest/best-armed/sometimes-lucky guys win. so does gravity. hopefully, so does gold.
BTW, i think we 'get' europe better than you would like to believe. the good news is that we still think it's an impressive place/peoples for many reasons.
End of Europe? No.
End of the 'money being lent by nations that can't afford it to nations that can't afford to repay it' game? Definitely.
http://order-order.com/2010/11/24/ukip-mep-given-das-boot/#comments
Godfrey Bloom has been thrown out of a session of the European Parliament for shouting“Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer” (One People, One Empire, One Leader) as German Social Democrat MEP Martin Schultz was making a speech.
UKIP press released this:
Schulz is an unrepentant Euro nationalist and a socialist. He wants one currency, one EU state, one EU people. Already the Euro nationalists have one currency, one flag, one anthem, a foreign service and are creating a home office for Justice. They are creating here one Parliament with one executive and one EU citizenry. The EU Commission have already taken control of the economies of Ireland and Greece, no doubt others to follow. These Euro Nationalists are a danger to democracy. These people are fanatics. People have got to wake up to this fact. My father as a Spitfire pilot fought for freedom against Nazi domination of Europe. As an MEP I will fight against the destruction of democracy across Europe.”
I am willing to wager it really matters not IF Ireland passes the bail-out. Calls for new elections diminish whatever the current government is able to muster. The rolling shit storm has washed over the nation the way a Cat 3 hurricane does a leeward island. What has happened in this instance will fade just as quickly as the next area of devastation is mapped and realized.
Storm track estimates that Hispaniola & Puerto Rico are likely next, but some simulations have the storm heading more westerly and heading directly for the Central American nations of Nicaragua, Honduras, Belize and Guatemala. Highlights at 11.
You know, for a cute kids' movie the Disney-Pixar film WALL-E is actually a pretty prescent commentary on where we're headed.
From: http://pixar.wikia.com/Buy_n_Large
Buy n Large contiuned to expand its efforts for control so much that by the year 2105, Buy n Large had over two million wholly owned subsidaries, governmental bodies, and health care centers. It had finally become a world leader in every conceivable field including world leadership.
Substitute "The Fed/IMF/ECB/Bankster Cabal" for "Buy n Large" and you're pretty much there.
The film WALL-E is not to be underestimated! It will be a classic for sure.
hopefully, so will "a bugs life" ...
we'll soon see, me-thinks.