Ireland Sells Out Its People To UK, Germany Bankers, Will Apply For Rescue Tonight

Tyler Durden's picture

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kalum's picture

Lo siento. No jobs here.

caconhma's picture

It is very interesting  to observe the present pan-European globalization trend when an individual country elite overwhelmingly cares only about its own position and privileges outside its own country and, at the same time, has very little respect or concern about their own countrymen welfare. Pan-European ideology  totally overwhelmed common people well-being.

This situation very much reminds the historical situation in Russia just before the WWI.

More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture
Ireland Sells Out Its People To UK, Germany Bankers [...]

So ... now they are not those bastards who spent beyond their means and built up debt levels that are not servicable?

The Irish people are now 'sold out' because german taxpayers are forced to bail out Irish debt, which the Irish people have previously lent and spent?

Please, pretty please, would someone please 'sell me out' as well and bail out my debt?? :-)

Also, ZH is nothing if masterfully inconsistent intellectually when we compare the Irish coverage to the Greek coverage a year ago: then the situation in Greece was portrayed as excessive spending coupled with the poor core EU countries having to bail out Greece.

Wow!

Fred Hayek's picture

The greeks have astoundingly inefficient tax collection, to the extent that the term should probably be put in quotes to adequately represent it.  They have ridiculously generous terms for beginning retirement.  They've outrageously lied about their government's fiscal standing over and over again.  The structure of the greek government is a failure. 

The irish have reasonable tax collection and sincerely adopted austerity measures to ensure that their spending was also reasonable.  They were the poster boys for responsible austerity.  The irish government is fine.  The problem is that they stupidly guaranteed the debts of their banks, which should have been taken over and restructured. 

The two situations are quite different.  One involved an insolvent government everything about which, from tax collection to its spending was a fraud.  The other involves a nation that was fairly well run but whose banks have been killed by the bursting of a real estate bubble.  The former is a hopelessly irresponsible liarocracy.  The latter is a nation that simply should have taken over its banks.

More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

 

The irish have reasonable tax collection and sincerely adopted austerity measures to ensure that their spending was also reasonable.  They were the poster boys for responsible austerity.  The irish government is fine.  The problem is that they stupidly guaranteed the debts of their banks, which should have been taken over and restructured. [...]

Oh, you mean they should have done what Iceland has done? What a brilliant suggestion ... :-)

Seriously, had they not guaranteed deposits in late 2008 when every other european country was racing to guarantee deposits, Ireland would have been a spectacular bank run and failure right in 2008, and would have needed an even bigger bail-out on the order of magnitude of their external debt: 1-2 trillion dollars ...

Also, I'd not call Ireland 'healthy' by any measure - it ended up not being able to pay its own debt black and white, right?

It's not like germans have gone into Ireland, have borrowed there, spent it and left the bill for Ireland, right? That debt was created and spent by the Irish people, directly or indirectly. Now the rest of the EU is bailing them out.

The mistake of Ireland was that it did not create a safety cushion in prosperous years, so it was hit in the groin by the (largely external) 2008 financial crisis. The other mistake was that it started cutting spending instead of trying to out-grow their debt.

That Ireland had/has a disproportionately large and over-leveraged banking sector, partly fueled by tax evading US corporations who use the tax loopholes of Ireland (to the detriment of US, german and french taxpayers) probably did not help either.

Some real economic activity with quality local production capacity (like Germany has) would be far more recession-proof.

So Ireland has turned from conservative low-tax low-regulation musterchild into a bailout nightmare. What a difference two short years of reality make!

Btw., I agree with you regarding Greece - I just think that something similar played in Ireland as well (just there the tax evasion was done by corporations, not individuals), with fewer outrageous excesses but on a grander scale. Too much low-tax no-government cool-aid and the 'Celtic Tiger' went poof with no financial cushion left but the rest of Europe.

macholatte's picture

Yes. Blame the people, the herd, the sheep, for doing exactly as expected. But lay zero accountability onto that small handful, literally a dozen or so, who are in a position of authority and more than eager to be bribed.

Do you blame an obese child if the mother feeds it a diet of sugar and fat.

The American people are tired of liars and people who pretend to be something they're not.
Hillary Clinton
 

Oracle of Kypseli's picture

Well said:

Here is what Ireland should do: default, default, default.

Roll out the Punt and start over.

Let the UK, French and German banks fail.

"Take less pain now, than eternal pain later." 

More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

So you are suggesting that they should default like Iceland did, and let themselves be essentially bombed back into the economic stone ages?

Good luck with that ...

Fred Hayek's picture

Well, let's be fair about this.  You posit that the pain now will be absolutely intolerable.  Okay, but what will the pain be from your alternative?  Will they all be ruined just the same?

More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

I'm not positing anything. I'm saying that the suggested "simple" solution of default is not so simple at all, as the example of Iceland has shown it.

So the whole posturing here on ZH that the Irish people have been 'sold out' is false. They have debt - it is money the Irish have spent - they followed bad advice via their low-tax low-regulation economic policy, they are now out of national reserves and yes now they are in an even worse situation.

There is no easy advice there. I'd suggest them to not listen to the same stupid people who got you into this mess (more austerity, anyone?).

tmosley's picture

Icelanders aren't starving in the streets, so they are hardly in the "economic stone ages".

If bailing out bankers is modern, then Oog want be caveman.

More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

Icelanders aren't starving in the streets, so they are hardly in the "economic stone ages". [...]

They aren't in the streets starving, instead they staged the biggest mass protests in Iceland's history, they are suffering an unemployment rate rise 4x, and they have switched government once or twice already.

Does not give me the impression of happiness.

And note that Iceland has vast natural resources (on a per capita basis) on which it can base future growth, once the dust settles. It is also an isolated spot to begin with and being isolated means they have no deep structural problems from being isolated some more.

Consider Ireland: no significant natural resources (the brits have cut off the oil-rich northern parts smartly) and an economy that is based on integration not on isolation - plus baseline unemployment that is higher than that of Iceland's already. Defaulting would have much more severe consequences.

So the 'simple' solution of Ireland defaulting is not so simple after all.

trav7777's picture

yes, better that the roads, the oil reserves, Air Lingus, and the national pensions should go to the bankers in exchange for their jew confetti in exchange for a few more years of kicking the can.

Just like how Chicago sold the effing parking meters.  I mean, wtf did the average Chicagoan do to deserve this?  The "representatives" freaking SELL the assets of the People??  For what, to balance THIS year's budget?

And where did all the spending go?  Did it make the little people rich?  Are they REALLY responsible?  Or was it to build shit nobody needed, crony contracts, bribes, waste, fraud, dead relatives collecting paychecks in bloated administrative workforces...

chrisina's picture

You're absolutely right, all this didn't make the little people in Ireland richer. But it did make the Irish elites (corporocracy and corrupt politicians) much much richer. They were the ones who pushed for all these nonsensical policies, lowering the corporate tax rate to the lowest possible so as to attract foreign capital (German, British banks) and become a tool of these mega corporations to avoid paying taxes in their homeland via a series of transfer pricing mechanisms.. 

Because Irish financial institutions didn't just invest in Irish real estate : with 2.5 trillion in foreign assets and 2.6 in foreign liabilities which dwarfs the Irish real estate market (a couple of hundred billion Euros) they became a low tax haven for european wide real estate investment.

Sure, the German and British banks are to blame. But the Irish elites are the prime responsible for this mess. Noone forced them to turn their country into a european real estate speculating entity and tax haven for the big banking cartels.

 

And I completely agree with More Critical T's overall assessment.

Rick64's picture

Exactly. This is the game the IMF and other banks play.

M.B. Drapier's picture

And said Irish elites will also benefit from a further Irish-taxpayer-funded bailout of their investments in the Irish banks. Karl Otto Pöhl explained the game back in May. This is a reason to restructure the Irish bank debt, not to rescue it further with public money.

Rick64's picture

Pohl makes an excellent argument for Greece defaulting or restructuring their debt and leaving the EU. Common sense IMO.

caconhma's picture

Let me try to answer your questions

  • People must be responsible for their own lives instead of relying on a government help using money stolen from hard-working fellow citizens. As you know welfare-state governments are broke. And even if they are not broke, they (government bureaucrats) care only about themselves.
  • Do you blame an obese child if the mother feeds it a diet of sugar and fat? The answer is YES. A rotten apple falls near the rotten tree. They are all rotten and deserve their miserable destiny.

  • As for hillary clinton, in my book, she is the third biggest scumbag and a liar in America just after Obama and her husband

 

tmosley's picture

Don't forget Greenspan.  Or Bush, and his cadre, for that matter.

caconhma's picture

There are always two sides responsible for a failed relationship. There are

  • Those bastards who spent beyond their means and built up debt levels that are not serviceable and
  • Those banksters who deliberately encourage irresponsible borrowing and provided "easy" money to those bastards who are both unable and unwilling to pay back

Since both sides are responsible for the present lender/borrowing catastrophe, the both sides must to pay for their greed and stupidity as well as to find a mutually acceptable solution. After all, German banksters can always foreclose on the real estate they put stupidly money in.

In a case of Ireland, Irish people must to pay for everything and German banksters are getting bailouts? No, it is not a fair and/or honest way to conduct business!

Granted, Irish people elected  the corrupt and stupid government (just look at a picture of its PM) that decided to guaranty all bank deposits. WOW!

More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

 

Granted, Irish people elected  the corrupt and stupid government that decided to guaranty all bank deposits. WOW! [...]

Well, to be fair you need to be aware of the historic context. In late 2008 every other european country was racing to reassure depositors that they are guaranteeing deposits. Germany, UK, France, Italy - everyone, you name it.

Had Ireland decided back then to not do that, had they decided to go the route of Iceland, they'd have faced Iceland's fate: the mother of all bank runs on the order of magnitude of 1-2 trillion dollars, and an economic isolation (and kicking out of the eurozone) that would have brought them back into the economic stone ages.

The Irish government, I think rightfully, thought that they had no other alternative. In hindsight, a $100 billion bailout today is still cheaper - especially as it's taxpayers of Germany and France who are paying for Irish debt ... (out of self interest, of course - their institutions are deeply present in Ireland.)

caconhma's picture

Regardless of what they do, the Pan-European socialist ponzi paradise will collapse. It is just matter of time.

It is just like plugging holes in a poorly designed and poorly built leaking dam.

More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

Well, as an economic block the EU is certainly productive and its biggest economies are producing surpluses (i.e. can be financed forever even under most restrictive gold standard type dark-ages economics). There is nothing Ponzi about Germany or about northern European countries - they are massively productive.

The only question is whether core EU countries continue to be willing to bail out the over-leveraged debt of the EU periphery. Their politicians might go for that, as that is the path of least resistance, but their electorate might eventually stop them. That effect remains to be seen.

BurningFuld's picture

These things should always be fair both ways. In that if there are no rules regarding the lending of money there should be NO RULES regarding it being paid back. The banks that are shoveling the money out hand over fist know there are no rules on their lending hence they should expect NO RULES on it being paid back. It's only fair right?

chrisina's picture

What do you mean there are no rules on the lending of money and no rules on paying it back? 

This has always been the same rule for mortgages:

creditor lends money to debtor against collateral (the house). If debtor can't pay back the loan, creditor keeps collateral.

caconhma's picture

It is a geopolitical issue for Germany, France, etc. For their economies, they need temporary on-demand immigrants to do dirty jobs but instead of permanent Muslims they would rather prefer in & out  Irish or Spanish immigrants.

Presently, a major geopolitical realignment takes place. Unfortunately for the USA, G.W. Bush, Obama, Clinton, and "friends of Israel" guiding our foreign and domestic agendas & policies at this junction.

More Critical Thinking Wanted's picture

To be honest, while immigrants play an important role in Germany's economy, it's not like there are no germans willing to do those jobs.

Also, while immigrants doing cheap jobs is an economic benefit, immigrants using social benefits is a drag on the economy. It's probably still a net positive effect, but not a very clear one.

Also, there are EU countries with very few immigrants (Finland - it's way too cold), and they have no productivity problems at all - and all jobs are being filled.

philgramm's picture

Say what you will about the ZH coverage of each country........The facts still remain the same---the elites in both countries sold out their taxpayer in order to benefit themselves.  We are in the midst of the greatest consolidation of power that the world has ever seen. 

AnAnonymous's picture

Also, ZH is nothing if masterfully inconsistent intellectually when we compare the Irish coverage to the Greek coverage a year ago:

 

It is only inconsistent if you do not apply the appropriate intellectual framework.

The proper intellectual framework to apply is gang mentality. This gives a consistent treatment of data.

This site is populated mainly by people from the anglocore gang.

While being vastly different from the anglocore in terms of virtues, the Irishcore gang is still closer to the anglo gang than the Greek. This by an ocean. Not even sure that Greeks are white people...

Gangs like to censor similar behaviours displayed by other gangs. Greeks are censored in their behaviour, not because of their behaviour but because they are Greek.

While Irish are not censored in their behaviour because they are a closer gang. Especially in the context of the EU, where their new allegiance can be interpretated as them moving out of their old colonial master to some shared colonial master partnership. 

That is gang mentality. And intellectually consistent.

For people who operate outside the gang mentality framework, the Irish reaction and treatment is not a surprise. The Irish want to be bailed out but they want to be at the best terms. They simply negociated the best terms.

The reality is that everyone in the western world will accept the bailout, but this similar behaviour will be interpretated differently.

The kind of proud last stand for sovereignty the Irish were supposed to deliver is to be found in some third world shit holes. In the gang mentality though, this is not a proud stand to forge or maintain sovereignty, this is because the third worlders are retarded and hateful to the benevolent West.

Bottom line: this site is consistent as soon as you use the correct framework: the gang mentality.

chopper read's picture

bailing out to gain more control is easy.  just print money and lend it as expected.

 

before all of this, it is important to create a debt-based monetary system and perpetuate a major bond market to support a ponzi scheme welfare state.  once the collapse ensues, then more power can be consolidated and indigenous Irish people can be exterminated for their property.  

 

simple. 

Sudden Debt's picture

I kind of feel sorry for the Irish.

They didn't want this to happen.

you think that because it happens in another country far far away that's it all okay and funny.

And if our governments that don't listen to the common people mess thing up even more the same will happen all over the western world.

But that's where the proof is that people like you are to stupid to enjoy the fruits of freedom.

 

larynx's picture

The Irish have been so stupid to give away the right to print.

In the long run printing will not save us, but being dependent seems to inflict more pain in the short run.

Sudden Debt's picture

That's like giving a alcoholic the key to the liquid cabinet.

Sure it's fun for the first few times because it's fun to be arround somebody who drinks.

But once he starts drinking to much and become dependent on it, it becomes something else.

And how many alcoholics call themselves in the beginning a alcoholic?

NONE!

But there goes the liver!

Sudden Debt's picture

That's like giving a alcoholic the key to the liquid cabinet.

Sure it's fun for the first few times because it's fun to be arround somebody who drinks.

But once he starts drinking to much and become dependent on it, it becomes something else.

And how many alcoholics call themselves in the beginning a alcoholic?

NONE!

But there goes the liver!

Dr. No's picture

It happens to all countries.  The people dont want it, but the politicos pass it anyway.  Business as usuall here in the US.  If anyone here thinks the new republicans are different from the old, just watch the teary eyed plea to pass TARP by the future speaker of the house.

CashCowEquity's picture

Overnight Futures= Moonshoot

 

PM's epic parabolic move

Gold +55

Silver +2.25

Palladium +48

Platinum +60

Xibalba's picture

from your fingertips to my ears!

willlaughforfood's picture

even with options expiry right around the corner?

unky's picture

yeah, i was hoping silver prices would fall a little further...

what will happen to the EUR/USD ? up or down on this news???

French Frog's picture

eur/usd up 70 pips on open  1.3740

Unholy Dalliance's picture

CCE - Silver Price: I think you misplaced the decimal point. That should read +22.5,

shouldn't it?

breezer1's picture

the ? is how much silver will a loaf of bread buy?

Goldtoothchimp09's picture

all things equal i would think this development would strenghten the dollar...i would think that would be a headwind to the PM's

Fred Hayek's picture

Europeans and asians buy PM's, too.  If I were an irishman or german or frenchman or . . . I'd see what was happening to my currency and leap for some PM's. 

So, you say that this might make the dollar temporarily stronger and think that would be bad for PM's.  But americans are far from the only market for PM's.

tmosley's picture

Where does one get this data?  I was not aware that futures were traded over the weekend.

Or is this speculation about what will happen once the exchanges open this afternoon?

EscapeKey's picture

I don't know if they're just German... if Ireland weren't to take the bailout, British banks would be in dire straits. One would imagine quite a considerable amount of the pressure applied came from 'ole Blighty.

Having said that, I think its crazy anyone can even question whether it'll be inflation or deflation given these developments; no-one is stopping the central banks printing and distributing, which so obviously will be the solution as well when Portugal and eventually Spain show signs of collapsing.